Question about Peralta Stones...

Unless I'm mistaken, the first stones found were the Priest, Horse, Heart, Trail and Heart insert (5) stones correct?  At a later time, 2 stone crosses of similar design and another heart (Latin heart) were also found.  Can someone point me to a place I can read how and where those 3 were found (or perhaps tell the story here).

Lastly - I guess this isn't a question that can be answered, but I can't help wondering that "if" these stones are all connected somehow and they are authentic (meaning they were made long ago - however long that means to some people), doesn't it stand to reason that there may be other stones not yet found that contain further "map" details unknown at present?

Has anyone watched or heard firsthand anything about the story (DVD?) that has recently come out relating the Peralta Stones to Montezuma's Treasures?  If you've seen it or researched it at all, how much stock do you put into those theories?

This is all so interesting - it fits perfectly with the quote in my signature.

Thanks in advance for any information

HI

theres a simple answer to your question is, try asking the blindbowman most of his replies are posted on the lost dutchmans mine post, you can read there,this guy claims  he has deciphered the stones and could answer any question you may have

best of luck woodpecker



 

 

from jim hatt's website









On March 10, 1983, Michael Bilbrey, then 32 years old and already a thirteen-year veteran in the search for the Lost Dutchman Mine, filed a mining claim, LD8, in an area where he believed that the Peralta Stone Maps led to.  In an article in The Arizona Republic on Tuesday, February 1, 1983, Charles Kelly reported that Bilbrey stated he had assay reports on samples taken from his claim that showed a gold content in sufficient quantity to validate the filing of a mining claim. In the same article, Larry Soehlig, a Lands and Mineral Officer for the Tonto National Forest, is quoted as saying, “Based on what Mr. Bilbrey’s proposed he’d like to do, there’s probably enough (gold) there to let him continue with that little (mining) process.” Michael Bilbrey did find gold there.

This gold, however, was not the driving force behind Michael’s many future trips to this remote and lonely location among towering cliffs and deep valleys. Having ended up in this area following his own personal interpretation of the Peralta Stone Maps, he was constantly on the lookout for anything that looked out of place in the natural environment or which might suggest that “man”, that is, the Peraltas or Jacob Waltz (The Dutchman) had been there before him.

During one of his trips to his mining claims Michael accidentally discovered two stone crosses, each approximately 12 inches high, 6 inches wide, and a little more than 1 inch thick, partially buried in the loose gravel that covered the side of the slope near where he had been working. Both Stone Crosses had engravings on one side and nothing on the other.

The first cross has words written on it in Spanish,  “EL TESORO DE LOS EGLESIA DE SANTA FE”,  “EL CURVA DE LOS SOMEO MONTANA” which translated says something like:  “The Treasure of the Church of Santa Fe” and “The Cave of Hat Mountain.”

The second cross has a map-like orientation of symbols on it, similar to the symbols carved on the Peralta Stone Maps and consistent with the landmarks named on the front side of the Latin Heart. 

It is doubtful that Michael was aware of the Latin Heart at that time, but he could not have missed the similarities between the symbols on the Stone Crosses and the Peralta Stone Maps. Soon after making this discovery he appears to have lost all interest in his mining claims, and redirected his efforts towards understanding the stone crosses and searching for The Treasure of the Church of Santa Fe.

Because Michael could not prove his story about how he found the Stone Crosses, very few people outside his immediate group of friends believed his story. Michael endured one of the most unpleasant set of circumstances a treasure hunter can experience. He found the Stone Crosses at a time when he was alone in the mountains. An event took place, which could not be repeated in front of witnesses.  A single witness to the event, or even a dozen, may not have been of any help in correctly interrupting the inscriptions on the crosses, but at least Michael would have had someone he could share the frustration with when he was later accused of fabricating the crosses himself. Accusations that to this day still reverberate around campfires and dining room tables.

Eventually when their combined efforts produced no treasure, even his friends began to doubt him and lost interest in the crosses and the alleged treasure they applied to. Being the only person left on the planet who knew for certain that he had not fabricated the crosses himself, Michael continued the search for The Treasure of the Church of Santa Fe alone. According to people that knew Michael he remained a dedicated searcher for many years. He even relocated from San Diego, Calif. To Scottsdale, Ariz. to be closer to the Superstition Mountains and be able to dedicate more time to his search. 

There is nothing in recorded history; legend or lore, to indicate that Michael ever found the treasure in which he never stopped believing was out there somewhere. Believing myself that the Stone Crosses are authentic relics which do apply to a buried treasure of some kind, I can only assume that Michael’s failure to locate that treasure was due to the fact that he assumed the treasure was located somewhere in the immediate area where he found the crosses, and never gave enough consideration to the idea that they may have been dropped where he found them accidentally by someone (or something) just passing through the area.
 

someone that uses his head for more then a hat rest ...

the hat mt is in the supersititions and the stones do piont the location out . and they do piont out the The Treasure of the Church of Santa Fe, there is your little horsey ..


i had ask jim hat for the translation for what you just posted here . i had a picture of this cross but it was not a clear picture and i could hot read the words .. it was the last part of my puzzle untranslated .. thank you ...


Michael Bilbrey found those stones . and when the facts are all in place i will prove that .. but tell now ... you still think i was born yesterday ...


good answer .....now i am gone ....

are you ever going to post something constructive bowman?

HIO Peerless:  A question, was the following an actual  copy or are typos involved in the second cross?


"The first cross has words written on it in Spanish,  “EL TESORO DE LOS EGLESIA DE SANTA FE”,  “EL CURVA DE LOS SOMEO MONTANA” which translated says something like:  “The Treasure of the Church of Santa Fe” and “The Cave of Hat Mountain"

Don Jose de La Mancha

are you ever going to post something constructive bowman?

are you ?



what are the mts that run north and south just to the east of Santa Fe...? i have never been there but the code says the treasure of the chruch of Santa Fe is hide there ...

"i have never been there but the code says the treasure of the chruch of Santa Fe is hide there ..."

Are you saying that the treasure is no longer in the Superstitions?

Joe

No response on the Montezuma claim or supposed DVD that's either out or coming out on the Peralta Stones and their ties to some treasure in Utah?  Just curious if anyone has seen it and has any thoughts on whether it's BS or not.

from jim hatt's website

On March 10, 1983, Michael Bilbrey, then 32 years old and already a thirteen-year veteran in the search for the Lost Dutchman Mine, filed a mining claim, LD8, in an area where he believed that the Peralta Stone Maps led to.  In an article in The Arizona Republic on Tuesday, February 1, 1983, Charles Kelly reported that Bilbrey stated he had assay reports on samples taken from his claim that showed a gold content in sufficient quantity to validate the filing of a mining claim. In the same article, Larry Soehlig, a Lands and Mineral Officer for the Tonto National Forest, is quoted as saying, “Based on what Mr. Bilbrey’s proposed he’d like to do, there’s probably enough (gold) there to let him continue with that little (mining) process.” Michael Bilbrey did find gold there.

This gold, however, was not the driving force behind Michael’s many future trips to this remote and lonely location among towering cliffs and deep valleys. Having ended up in this area following his own personal interpretation of the Peralta Stone Maps, he was constantly on the lookout for anything that looked out of place in the natural environment or which might suggest that “man”, that is, the Peraltas or Jacob Waltz (The Dutchman) had been there before him.

During one of his trips to his mining claims Michael accidentally discovered two stone crosses, each approximately 12 inches high, 6 inches wide, and a little more than 1 inch thick, partially buried in the loose gravel that covered the side of the slope near where he had been working. Both Stone Crosses had engravings on one side and nothing on the other.

The first cross has words written on it in Spanish,  “EL TESORO DE LOS EGLESIA DE SANTA FE”,  “EL CURVA DE LOS SOMEO MONTANA” which translated says something like:  “The Treasure of the Church of Santa Fe” and “The Cave of Hat Mountain.”

The second cross has a map-like orientation of symbols on it, similar to the symbols carved on the Peralta Stone Maps and consistent with the landmarks named on the front side of the Latin Heart. 

It is doubtful that Michael was aware of the Latin Heart at that time, but he could not have missed the similarities between the symbols on the Stone Crosses and the Peralta Stone Maps. Soon after making this discovery he appears to have lost all interest in his mining claims, and redirected his efforts towards understanding the stone crosses and searching for The Treasure of the Church of Santa Fe.

Because Michael could not prove his story about how he found the Stone Crosses, very few people outside his immediate group of friends believed his story. Michael endured one of the most unpleasant set of circumstances a treasure hunter can experience. He found the Stone Crosses at a time when he was alone in the mountains. An event took place, which could not be repeated in front of witnesses.  A single witness to the event, or even a dozen, may not have been of any help in correctly interrupting the inscriptions on the crosses, but at least Michael would have had someone he could share the frustration with when he was later accused of fabricating the crosses himself. Accusations that to this day still reverberate around campfires and dining room tables.

Eventually when their combined efforts produced no treasure, even his friends began to doubt him and lost interest in the crosses and the alleged treasure they applied to. Being the only person left on the planet who knew for certain that he had not fabricated the crosses himself, Michael continued the search for The Treasure of the Church of Santa Fe alone. According to people that knew Michael he remained a dedicated searcher for many years. He even relocated from San Diego, Calif. To Scottsdale, Ariz. to be closer to the Superstition Mountains and be able to dedicate more time to his search. 

There is nothing in recorded history; legend or lore, to indicate that Michael ever found the treasure in which he never stopped believing was out there somewhere. Believing myself that the Stone Crosses are authentic relics which do apply to a buried treasure of some kind, I can only assume that Michael’s failure to locate that treasure was due to the fact that he assumed the treasure was located somewhere in the immediate area where he found the crosses, and never gave enough consideration to the idea that they may have been dropped where he found them accidentally by someone (or something) just passing through the area.
 

Thanks Peerless - I was at that site a couple times but somehow missed that portion of it.  Thanks again.  So much mystery and intrigue!

HIO Peerless:  A question, was the following an actual  copy or are typos involved in the second cross?


"The first cross has words written on it in Spanish,  “EL TESORO DE LOS EGLESIA DE SANTA FE”,  “EL CURVA DE LOS SOMEO MONTANA” which translated says something like:  “The Treasure of the Church of Santa Fe” and “The Cave of Hat Mountain"

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hi Real, yes it was a direct copy/paste from the said site, although that being said i am apt to make spelling mistakes. I know no spanish so I would have no idea what they meant without a translation.

HI BB:  quote from an author----

honoring our mother earth.
the need to respect all peoples
the necessity of living in harmony with nature and each other

Sheehs this about a people that daily sacrificed humans and kept millions in virtual slavery ?  That on special occasions actually, according to their records, took days to kill all of the victims??   Somehow I seem to feel that our noble natives of the Americas are being whitewashed again.

None of them lived in harmony with nature or respected her, they exploited her just as we do today, only on a minor scale .  Life in those days did not allow such an approach, it was basic survival at it's best.  Because of this there was a constant state of warfare with their neighbors for  food and females.

Incidentally, before someone brings it up, I also have a bit of Mohican in my veins.  Also in my explorations  and encounters with some native people still living as in the past, they still exploit Mother nature just as much as ever.

This said, they were no better or worse than the ones  that came later and conquered them.

Don Jose de La Mancha

HOLA PEERLESS:

The first cross has words written on it in Spanish,  “EL TESORO DE LOS EGLESIA DE SANTA FE”,  “EL CURVA DE LOS SOMEO MONTANA” which translated says something like:  “The Treasure of the Church of Santa Fe” and “The Cave of Hat Mountain
~~~~~~~~~~~

El Tesoro de los Eglesia deSanta Fe -----

The Treasure of the (plural) Church of Santa Fe (holy faith)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EL CURVA DE LOS SOMEO MONTANA

The curve of the (plural) someo  (?)  Mountain.   Literal.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

El cueva de los (plural) Sombrero Mountain   ?

The cave of Sombrero (hat) mountain  Effective.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Was just curious Peerless.


Don Jose de La Mancha

"The cave of Sombrero (hat) mountain  Effective."


ahhahahhahhaha thanks de ........lol


de you are postive of that translation

"The cave of Sombrero (hat) mountain  Effective."


ahhahahhahhaha thanks de ........lol


de you are postive of that translation



LOL the rate Bowman is using everyone elses data we will all be discovering the LDM by proxy

this is a public forum . lol

HI BB:  no I am not!    A truer interpretation would be ---

EL CURVA DE LOS SOMEO MONTANA >>>


The curve or bend of the Someo Mountain

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

However I am not familiar of any  translation of Someo ??  It is reasonable to assume Sombrero, but??

Don Jose de La Mancha

thanks i will be back in ten mintues

Jose,

I would guess that someone's computer is screaming like a jet engine and perhaps a little smoke is coming out the back right now.

Joe

Jose,

I would guess that someone's computer is screaming like a jet engine and perhaps a little smoke is coming out the back right now.

Joe

I've definitely begun noticing how the spelling and grammar seems to magically get better all of a sudden, and then relapse again - funny huh?

Cubfan,

Cut and paste can work miracles.  Whatever we seek......It can be found on the internet.
When I do that kind of thing, I always credit the source.  Don't want folks to think I turned into a blooming professor overnight.

Joe Ribaudo

i dont think you have lol ..


ok i know why you guys are gettingdiffrent translations then i am .. when you are looking for trandlation you most likely looking for a spainish related target date and i am useing a latin 1300 target date ... i got a totally diffrent translation then you did .. on both of those wordings ...

they were so diffrent i am not going to post my translations ...

k BB: 

SOMEO in archaic Latin means "body".  So in a broad interpretation it could say -- 

"The curve of the mountain",   "The Bend of the mountain"     

"The curve of the mountains"    "The curve of the mountain range"

"The bend of the mountains"  etc.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Jose,

Are the rest of the words in the passage also in "archaic latin"?  If not, any guesses as to why not?

Joe

I wonder if it could mean  The cave of the sleeping mountain

som'eo    sleep sleeping


somniculosus -a -um [sleepy , drowsy]; adv. somniculose.

somnifer -fera -ferum [sleep-bringing; narcotic , deadly].

somnio -are [to dream]; with acc. [to dream of]; [to imagine foolishly].

somnium -i n. [a dream; a fancy , daydream; foolishness, nonsense].

somnus -i m. [sleep , slumber; drowsiness, laziness, inactivity; night].




nahh could'nt be

Cubfan asked a question about the crosses and latin heart, I copy pasted the reply from Jim hatt's website.
I make enough spelling errors of my own to take credit for his to

Que, where is the entire document?

Don Jose de La Mancha

maybe this is the dvd you want Cubfan


http://www.desertusa.com/video_pages/du_stone_movie.html

Que, where is the entire document?

Don Jose de La Mancha

here it is

http://www.desertusa.com/ldm-1/peralta.html

Wouldn"t it make sence that the words inscribed would be in very old latin. Latin has been the language of the catholic church from the start. It seems that any very old religous writings would be in very old latin and not in spanish.
Bill   

maybe this is the dvd you want Cubfan


http://www.desertusa.com/video_pages/du_stone_movie.html

yup that's the one - just not sure I want to pay money for it if it's just a bunch of "hooey" - was hoping one of you hunters had seen it already and could give a review.

Que, where is the entire document?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hey Jose,

Anything you want to know about that article from DesertUSA, just PM me, and I'll email or call Jim Hatt. He is a good guy, and a wealth of knowledge. Those cast copies of the Stone Maps, The Latin Heart, and the Latin Crosses, all used to belong to Jim. I believe that he told me he sold them several years ago, though.

Best-Mike

Is anyone else bothered at all by the "cartoonish" carving of the priest/witch?  From a very simplistic standpoint, I look at the trail/heart stones and then the priest/horse stone and my immediate impression is that they don't look all that related.

Now granted I've never seen the stones in person or anything - but honestly, that's always been my first thought when I look at that priest/witch and even the horse.  They're nicely carved - almost too nicely carved if you know what I mean? 

Just something that's bothered me since I first saw the pictures

Cubfan,

I would suggest you look into the work and history of Ted De Grazia.  Take special note of the fact that Ted spoke Spanish, but it was not his first language.

Joe Ribaudo

Cubfan,

I would suggest you look into the work and history of Ted De Grazia.  Take special note of the fact that Ted spoke Spanish, but it was not his first language.

Joe Ribaudo

will do - I didn't mean to come off as brash or anything - the observation is just one that always pops into my head when I look at that carving.

Gonna look into Ted De Grazia right now - thanks

it could be that the stones had a different "artist"

ESTA BEREDA ES PELIGROZA
YO BOY 18 LUGARES
BUSCA EL MAPA
BUSCA EL COAZON

18 GOLD BARS
LOCATE MAP BY XXXXXXX
USE BY XXXXXX XXXX AREA LA PAZ ARIZONA.


ps be sure to use an 1847 map

ESTA BEREDA ES PELIGROZA
YO BOY 18 LUGARES
BUSCA EL MAPA
BUSCA EL COAZON

Here is another way to read that:

"THIS TRAIL IS DANGEROUS"
"I GO EIGHTEEN PLACES"
"HUNT FOR THE MAP"
"HUNT FOR THE (mispelled) HEART"

The B in Bereda and Boy is more commonly done today as a "V", as in Vereda and Voy, but in Spanish the letters "B" and "V" tend to sound very similar in use.

Will be offline a while (moving) so if anyone wishes to win an argument with me, take advantage of the fact I won't be replying for at least several days!    (After this evening of course)

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

Oroblanco,
I agree with your translation, except it could be slightly improved, possibly.

"THIS TRAIL IS DANGEROUS"
"I GO EIGHTEEN PLACES"
"HUNT FOR THE MAP"
"HUNT FOR THE (mispelled) HEART"

"THIS TRAIL IS DANGEROUS"
"I GO EIGHTEEN PLACES"
"SEARCH THE MAP"
"SEARCH THE HEART"

Read the above translation literally and note that thee is an excellant reason for the mispelled word. (A Spanish map code thing, research it a little.)

azmula

If Azmula doesn't know the code associated with the Stone Maps......No one does.  It would be interesting to see him apply that code to the maps, as I have laid them out on the topo.  I fear that code has been my stumbling block from the start.

Actually, I would like for anyone who believes they know the code to apply their theory and conclusions to my map.  Don't see any harm could be done.

Joe Ribaudo

HI AZMULE:  I agree, your interpretation is more in line with the general intent, but both are technically correct.

Do Jose de La Mancha

Hello to all,
I have been reading here and @ other threads for a few month now. I have a couple of photos I would like to share with u. I like so many before me have been following the stone trail maps. I located all the markers (x) on the trail (they haven't been disturb all these years) and IMHO have come across a stone heart which was located approx. 8 paces north of the double circle marker. However, due to my lack of experience with final distinations I don't know what to look for or how to further proceed with my search. I did turn the stone over hoping to find marking on the bottom of the stone heart but there were none.
Sorry not able to attach photos. It appears my photos are in the 600KB range, is there a way to shrink this amount?
Sincerely,
Rock climber 

If Azmula doesn't know the code associated with the Stone Maps......No one does.  It would be interesting to see him apply that code to the maps, as I have laid them out on the topo.  I fear that code has been my stumbling block from the start.

Actually, I would like for anyone who believes they know the code to apply their theory and conclusions to my map.  Don't see any harm could be done.

Joe Ribaudo

some one dose..... lol

Hello to all,
I have been reading here and @ other threads for a few month now. I have a couple of photos I would like to share with u. I like so many before me have been following the stone trail maps. I located all the markers (x) on the trail (they haven't been disturb all these years) and IMHO have come across a stone heart which was located approx. 8 paces north of the double circle marker. However, due to my lack of experience with final distinations I don't know what to look for or how to further proceed with my search. I did turn the stone over hoping to find marking on the bottom of the stone heart but there were none.
Sorry not able to attach photos. It appears my photos are in the 600KB range, is there a way to shrink this amount?
Sincerely,
Rock climber 

Hi Rock Climber - interesting post.  As far as the pictures are concerned, the only help I can give you is to use a program like Photoshop to reduce the size of the image until each one is less than 256KB.

I know I'm curious to see them

Cubfan,
Thanks for your assistance. I have 3 that I will attach one post at a time.
This is the Stone before I turned it over. Notice how the bottom section looks like it was molded into the rock formation.

Dollor bill to show approx. size of heart stone.

Double circle (circle in circle) marker approx. 8 paces south of heart stone.

To all the bright intelligent members who read and post here, I think you are great and keep up the good work. I would like information on how to proceed with a discovery that might exist if this is the final destination. I promise to share anything of value i.e, Cache, bullion, coins, etc… Who needs it all? I may have displayed evidence that you all seek and you can cut my search time in half with your considerable knowledge. I would be forever grateful. 

1)The path is dangerous, I love the Wilderness but would like to reduce the amount of trips I need to make down this path.
2)I went 18 places, located all markers as they indicate on the maps. This encourge me to proceed on.
3)I used the stone maps but may no longer need them.
4)I found a Heart stone where the circle in a circle marker is located indicating I might be on to something.

Regards,
Rock Climber

BC,

Thanks’ for your honest inputs and advice. I will take notes to see if there’s a fit. Although I seldom run into heart stones, I do see a lot of Rock faces when I’m out. One recent sighting that comes to mind is a rock face that is guarding some type of opening, cave about 1 mile past the heart sighting.

Thanks again,
Rock Climber

Rock Climber,

Welcome to the conversation. 

Sounds like you have found some of the markers in a tight sequence.  The questions that comes to mind are:  Were the eighteen monuments or markers in the same pattern as on the Stone Maps?  Were they in the proper perspective/distance if compared to the canyons shown on the Stone Maps, or were they, pretty much, in a smaller area?

Anyone who has spent any time in the Superstitions can show you hundreds of markings, including hearts, they have found over the years.  The same can be said for any other mountains in the world.

Keep in mind that the Stone Maps could very well be a hoax.  If they are not, any treasure they may have led to could have been removed long ago.

Like finding the LDM, you are one of many who have solved the Stone Map Trail.  Keeping the search a hobby is a wise choice to make, IMHO.

Good luck and good hunting,

Joe Ribaudo

Hello Joe and thanks for your welcome.

I've been enjoying the out doors for 2 years now. I started by going out with my Uncle's who also enjoy being out in the SW desert. I just found out about the Stone maps less than a year ago, so my experience is limited. The reality is that the Stone maps could very well be a hoax or lead to something long removed. If you were in my situation what would you do or look for at this point?

Thanks in advance,
Rock Climber

Rock Climber,

Nothing takes the place of repeated trips into the Superstition Mountains, but before you start any search you should learn as much as you can about what you are searching for, and what the existing "clues" are.

Reading everything you can on the subject is a good place to start.  At the same time, you can hike into the mountains as often as practical, keeping in mind that the established trails are not going to lead you to what you seek.  It is never a good idea to hike those mountains alone.  Two is good, but three is optimum.  Carry all the water you can safely handle.

If you can, attend the Dutch Hunter's Rendezvous the last weekend of this month.  There will be the foremost expert on the Stone Map legend speaking there.  Azmula has thrown a wide loop over the entire legend and I doubt there is anyone alive who knows more about it.

There will be others there who are somewhat, or very, familiar with all of the stories of the Superstition Mountain and the Southwest in general.  Matthew Roberts, Greg Davis and (possibly) Clay Worst are some of the people who should be there.  I believe the list will be much, much longer.

Anyone interested in the Superstition Mountains who misses this event will be kicking themselves for years to come.  More information will be shared there than can be found in any LDM book ever printed.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Dear Cubfan64;
Without a doubt, the Peralta stones are fake.  Everything about them is fake and it befuddles me why anyone would believe they are anything but fake. What practically every American fails to realize is that Spanish, like English, was VERY different 150 years ago. In fact, Spanish had more differences 150 years ago than English did and it is very easy to tell the difference between the English which was used 150 years to the English which is used today.
The writing on the stone tablets was quite obviously written by a very limited Spanish speaker, using modern day Spanish. This is so patently obvious that it's laughable. Another clue to the authenticity of the stones can be found in the drawings, such as the horse. This is very clearly a modern representation of a cartoon horse.
The words "Yo pasto" is not classical Spanish in origin, rather it  is modern Spanglish. The correct word is not PASTO,  it's "PACER" ("I graze", as horses graze rather than eat, or "comer") which any Spanish speaker 150 years ago would have known.
Another clue is the word written as "EGLESIA". This was obviously written by a English speaker who spelled the word "IGLESIA" phonically. In Spanish the letter I is pronounced as the long E in English, so IGLESIA is pronounced as E-glay-C-ah. Only an English speaker would confuse the E and I pronunciations because in Spanish the letter E is pronounced much softer, almost as a soft A would be pronounced in English. On the other hand, in Spanish the letter I is always pronounced as a hard E in English. The way the word has been misspelled is impossible for a native Spanish speaker, yet it's often misppelled by native English speakers exactly the same way as is carved on the stone tablet.
After having looked at and studied the tablets for a while I can state that I was unable to find ANYTHING about them which may prove they are authentic.
Your friend;
LAMAR
P.S. Curva is feminine, therefore correctly it should have been "La curva" instead of "El curva" Just another one of the many mistakes found on the tablets. Perhaps the stone carver wished to inscribe CUEVA, which is also feminine, however it would make more sense to search for a cave rather than a curve. Also, SOMEO could be misspelled as SOMERO which means SUMMARY SUPERFICIAL SHALLOW or CONCISE.

Dear group;
Another hint verifying the falsness of the tablets lies in the words "ESTA BEREDA ES PELIGROZA" The correct sentence should have been written as "ESTA VEREDA ES PELIGROSO". Any, and I mean ANY true Spanish speaker 150 years ago would have known that VEREDA is spelled with a V instead of a B and the word PELIGROSO is masculine in form and ends in O and not A. Also, there is no mistaking the Z for the S either. Again, the same mistake is inscribed in the words "YO BOY". Correctly it's written as "YO VOY". Again this not a common Spanish misspelling, however it's a very common misspelling for English speakers. Also, it's much more common for a native Spanish speaker to use the word LA instead of ESTA in this manner "La vereda es peligroso". Not only does it save time and labor when carving letters into stone, it also sounds more natural in construction and therefore is used much more frequently. Only someone who learned Spanish in school outside of Latin America or Spain would use the word ESTA instead of LA in this instance.
In the phrase "YO BOY 18 LUGARES" the mistakes are not quite as obvious, yet they are still there. Aside from the misspelled VOY, it is much more common for a native Spanish speaker, especially in Mexico, to state "Mi voy' rather than "Yo voy". To a person who learns Spanish as a first language, the word YO (meaning ME or I) is considered as rude and egotisical, therefore it is not used and the word MI (also meaning ME, MY or I) is used in it's place. Again, only in schools where Spanish is taught as a second language is the word YO considered to be correct. Also, in the phrase "YO BOY 18 LUGARES" the word A (TO, in English) has been omitted. The phrase should read as "YO VOY A 18 LUGARES" ( I GO TO 18 PLACES, SPOTS, SITES or TOWNS)
All of the misspellings, misused genders and poor sentence construction points to a modern English speaker trying to  write like a Mexican.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[On the other hand, someone with the intention of creating a hoax would probably not have made so many obvious errors.]

"All of the misspellings, misused genders and poor sentence construction points to a modern English speaker trying to  write like a Mexican.
Your friend;
LAMAR"


Hello Lamar,

Everything in your messages could be true,

OR,

The actual stone cutter may not have understood Spanish and was just cutting in the words as they were spoken to him.  Even today people are hired to do a job on a need-to-know basis. Could the individual(s) that commissioned the work on the stones intentionally hired someone that would not understand the meaning of what he was writing?

If there had been no errors in the writing there would be 10 - 100 times as many people working on trying to figure out the meaning of the other information on the maps.

As they are, the person that had them made could have realized that the vast majority of people would quickly dismiss them based on the obvious spelling and grammar errors, just as you have. 


On the other hand, someone with the intention of creating a hoax would probably not have made so many obvious errors.

18th or 19th century counter intelligence?

If the stones are authentic, there is a great deal of wealth at stake and I would expect a equally great deal of thought in their creation. Anything that would create doubt about their authenticity would be to the benefit of the creator.

Just thinking out loud,

El Gato

they look like words to me ... ;)

they look like words to me ... ;)

BB - You get irritated when people question you, and yet you CONTINUOUSLY post/revise/delete/post again etc...

I just don't understand the logic or reasoning behind doing that.  Either you have something to add or you don't - what's the point of copy/pasting a gigantic explanation about the the history of the Portuguese language, adding your reasons for believing what you believe about the stones, and then seconds later deleting it all to leave a non-informative post in it's place?

Play games as you will, but you have nobody to blame but yourself for people questioning your theories.

For me, I still keep an open mind to anything/everything.  Good luck in your expedition.
 

Lamar,

Much of what you say is true, but only applies to the Horse/Priest Stone.  I have never paid any attention to that tablet......whatsoever.  I believe it was carved much later, as a smokescreen to confuse the issue.
A good deal of circumstantial evidence points to the creator.

While the whole thing may be fake, the places marked on the trail maps are precise.  They were not produced by a casual visitor to the range, but by someone who had years of experience in the Superstitions.

Should have read farther back in this thread.

Joe Ribaudo

Well pointed out El Gato, those obvious errors should be a huge red flag to anyone studying those stone maps.  I am fairly convinced they are frauds, and have a couple of suspects as to whom created them and why.  Even so, it is possible they lead to treasure, but a modern treasure not an ancient one, if the creator is a particular artist.

Personally I would not waste a trip in trying to use those stone maps to find anything, as they have been used by a number of people over many years now without finding treasures - I have no reason to suppose that I would do any better than they did.  However for those who remain convinced of the stones' authenticity, they are sure to have a good time and are not hurting anyone (I hope!) and will at least get a good story to tell the grandkids while seated on the proverbial knee, so I too wish them good luck and good hunting - and I really won't be offended in the least should Blindbowman or anyone else succeed in finding some great treasure.  I will happily 'eat my words'.  

That said, it seems that no kinds of persuasion or logic will sway a person who has become convinced of the stone maps authenticity, it has become almost an article of faith.  I would sooner go spend the time and resources searching for better authenticated lost treasures/lost mines than use those stone maps, as I am convinced that your chances of actually finding treasures is immeasurably greater in searching for genuine lost treasures than in something of such questionable origins and aspect - but heck I think anyone going out to search for treasure is going to have the time of their life (I actually think that everyone ought to participate in a good treasure hunt at least once in their life) and I have no desire to rob anyone of their 'pursuit of happiness' so more power to you.  

I would definitely make every effort to talk any beginner OUT of wasting any time with the stone maps, as the odds of a failed treasure hunt are very high and nothing will kill a treasure hunter's desire to hunt treasure like looking for a fraud.  With an experienced treasure hunter, a person who is not discouraged by a failed search, I would sooner see them hunt for a verifiable treasure but if they don't mind chasing down legends that could turn out to be a pack of lies, I wish them good luck.

Sorry for the long-winded post, good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

While I am on the opposite side of the fence as Roy about this subject (I think they are most likely authentic), would also tend to agree with him regarding a green pea treasure hunter. BUUUUUUUT.........on the other hand, if you are looking for a subject on which to hone your research skills, this is a great one. There is a LOT to research. Trust me. As Roy and Cactus Jumper can attest to, I spent about 3 or 4 months solid researching JUST the modern history of the Stone Maps (from 1949 till present). I ran into brick walls, and uncovered some VERY interesting things that have never been shown before. A lot of my research helped to throw out some of the bullsh*t parts of the Stone's Story.

Lamar,

As far as the grammar, I can go down to Baja right now, and find a good stone carver. Tell him what to carve, and it will come out misspelled, and grammatically wretched. Many Mexicans are illiterate. I can only imagine that if illiteracy is so widespread in Mexico in 2007, then it was far worse in 1847. Just because someone is good with their hands, does not give them a command of any language.

I would think that if someone wanted to forge the Stone Maps, they would have gone to the trouble to find the correct words to carve.

Lastly, I try to simplify things to their basics:

Why would someone forge the Stone Maps? The only reason would be to use them to make money. Since their "finding" in 1949, they have never been used for that purpose. Every owner has kept them, and used them to try and find where they led. That in and of itself is my biggest reason for believing them to be authentic.

best-Mike

With a couple of modern tools (RotoZip, Dremel, etc.), a few books on TH lore, some topo maps, a knowledge of Colonial Spanish and some field time setting up fake monuments, etc., a smart guy with a wicked sense of humor could create similar or better fakes than these and send the gomers into the hills for years chasing phantoms.  If he were truly unscrupulous, he could sell them to an even more gullible and greedy gomer with lots of money.  Wake up and smell the coffee.   

Gollum raises an interesting point though - by trying to figure out these fakes, a rookie might gain substantial experience in orienteering, historical research methods, and how to survive on foot in rough country.  This might prepare him for a real search if the opportunity ever fell into his lap later. 

Hey Springfield,

I don't think anybody alive today (most likely) can say with 100% certainty that the stones are fakes (or authentic for that matter). Actually, I can think of one person who may be in a position to speak in absolutes about the Stone Maps. That man is Tom Kollenborn. I understand that what his stated views on the Stone Maps are, changes depending on who he is talking to. I haven't met or spoken with anybody who knows him that can say for 100% exactly what he believes.

When talking about the Stone Maps, one should be using the words "I believe" "I think" "in my opinion", etc. Even Azmula, who probably has done more in depth research on the Stone Maps than any human, doesn't use absolutes when referring to his beliefs (and he thinks them to be authentic).

See, there is NOTHING absolute about the Stone Maps. That includes where they were "found" alongside the highway between Florence Junction and Apache Junction. Azmula makes a great case for them having been stolen from the Arizpe Mission at the end of the nineteenth century, and been handed down in the Tumlinson Family from father "Peg Leg" Tumlinson to son Travis Tumlinson.

I won't start all the excruciating details again, for anybody who wishes to know more of all the arguments regarding the Stone Maps, please read the long thread in the Lost Dutchman Section.

Once again, please don't speak in absolutes. It doesn't make you look good. You are free to "believe" anything you wish, and based on which research evidence you chose to accept or reject, you can base "your beliefs", but unless you have absolute proof, you can't make absolute claims.

Best-Mike

Dear group;
Yes, I factored in the possibility that the person carving the stones may have been illiterate, or semi-illirate, however that does not dispell the fact that the Spanish which is carved on the stones is modern day Spanglish (a mixture of Spanish and English). 150 years ago Spanglish did not exist as most people living on either side of the Mexican/U.S. border spoke either English, Spanish or both and blending the 2 languages together was unheard of. This is a phenomenom which started sometime in the late 1920s and has continued right up to today.

The words "YO PASTO" are totally incorrect and someone obviously looked up the word GRAZE in a Spanish/English dictionary before carving the sentence into the stone. Again, the word "YO" inscribed over and over is a dead giveaway that the person carving the stone was not a native Spanish speaker. 150 years ago it was unheard of to use the word "YO", even if the person was illiterate. 150 years ago the word "YO" was considered to be extremely rude, much more so than it is today.

I am NOT stating that the LDM doesn't exist, merely that the Peralta Stones were not carved 150 or more years ago, rather they were carved sometime after the late 1920s. The fact that the person who *found* the stones embarked on a lifelong search for the LDM does NOT lend an ounce of authenticity to the Perlata Stones themselves. He could have been legitimately searching for the LDM, as have 1000s of others, and carved the stones as a gag or to throw everyone off the trail. Or, he may have legitimately found them too. None of these possibilities adds a single gram of credence to the authenticity of the Peralta Stones.

Look at the *Priest* stone for just moment. Now, ask yourself this: "How would anyone know what sort of garb a priest wore back in the late 1500s, especially someone with an extremely limited education, as all of the grammatical errors suggests?" It just doesn't wash. The person who carved the stones wouldn't know. Besides, the style of dress is incorrect in itself. THis leads me to believe that the *priest* in the carving is not a priest at all, rather it's a witch. If the carving is in fact a witch, then this in itself states the stone is a fake, as witches were unknown in Spain or Mexico until very modern times. Witches came from imaginations of English writers who brought these mythological beings with them to the USA. Over time they came to represent the principal figures of Halloween, again, another British tradition which found it's way to US shores via immagrants. Until 20 years ago, a person would be very hard pressed to find even a Jack O' Lantern in Mexico, that is how little known this particular US tradtion is.

Again, all of the factual evidence on hand leads me to believe that the stones are fake, for whatever reason. In all honesty I wish they weren't fake and that they in fact could lead a dedicated LDM searcher to the mouth of the famous mine, however I don't feel that this will happen using the Peralta Stones as a guide.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Mike: I'm not trying to 'look good' or make points with dedicated Peralta Stones afficionados.  I'm trying to encourage newcomers to the field of treasure hunting to be discriminating about the information they choose to base their searching on.  There is a big difference between a hobbiest who only needs any excuse to explore new terrain looking for 'treasure' and a serious hunter who has reason to believe that his information will give him a true chance for recovery.  Unfortunately, nearly all of the TH information available, including the Peralta Stones, is in the public domain.  This fact alone dooms the searcher because there is no reason, no matter how convincing the presentation, to believe that these published stories, articles, maps, legends, rumors, etc. are authentic.   Is there a truth underlying this stuff?  'Yes', in many cases, but 'no' in most cases.  The legends that are based on truth are so contaminated with disinformation as to be practically worthless if you have your sights set on recovery.

The newbie needs to use his head - why would authentic information purported to lead to great riches, be available to him?  If he realizes that the legend is to be used as a fun expedition into terra obscura and an interesting window into history, then he won't be discouraged or disappointed that he will not find his pot of gold.  All of us have realized this option and I imagine most of the viewers of this forum are more or less in this catagory.  The problems arise when people go overboard with this stuff and actually believe they are going to locate one of these treasures and compromise their lifestyles and obligations as a result.  Are there real hidden treasures to be found?  Yes, and the information that will aid the searcher is propriatory.  You don't find the genuine information - the real thing finds you.  It's acceptable to become obsessed if you have priviledged information, I guess, but not if your info is available to everyone.

As far as the Peralta Stones are concerned - believe what you will.  As I mentioned above, playing with this puzzle may be fun and lead to interesting things, but there is no reason to believe, other than that which appears in books, articles, theories and forum postings, that these carvings are authentic.  That said, is there something of great value hidden somewhere in the Superstition Mountains vicinity?  Yes, I believe there is.  Is it 'lost', waiting for some clever guy to find it?  No, it's well-hidden, monitored and still in the possession of it's owners.  All this is my opinion only, and of course, as you've pointed out before, I could be wrong.

Greetings friends,

Gollum wrote:

Why would someone forge the Stone Maps? The only reason would be to use them to make money.

I disagree with this idea, at least in part; for instance one good reason to create a fraud is for the sheer fun of knowing that you will fool people into making fools of themselves, this happens ALL too often!  Then too, a reason for a person to make up such fake stone maps may well be quite indirect - as in to promote "...the study, preservation and public presentation of the history, legends and lore -- plus the cultures and grandiose scenery -- of Arizona and the Southwest. "  (Sound familiar? Hmm?  )  In other words to attract more visitors and attention to the region, thus increasing tourism, realty prices etc.  Just take one look at the Superstitions from the southwest and you can SEE the indirect results, a vast sprawl of spreading suburbia now crowding right up to the very edges of the Superstitions!  Don't make the mistake of thinking that the only possible reason for someone to make up fakes is to "make money" from them, when there are a vast number of possible reasons, including just plain mean-ness!  Don't you know someone who has played a mean trick on someone else, just for the fun of being mean?

Mi amigo Mike (Gollum) has pointed out that those who possessed the Peralta stones did not attempt to make money from them, and this is slightly incorrect - remember MOEL and the investigation into their activities?  While not "convictions" this is at least more questionable activity.  Then too, the fact that someone used the stone maps to search for treasure does not prove the stone maps to be authentic,  only that the possessor believed them to be authentic - they could easily have been victims of fraud.  Remember the first "documented" owner of the stones was not a treasure hunter but a police officer - yes police do look at evidence and there are similarities, but treasure hunting is a different activity from hunting down criminals.  This line of reasoning does help to prove the innocence of those who used the stones to hunt treasures, but does not prove their authenticity by one iota. 

Lamar wrote:

the Spanish which is carved on the stones is modern day Spanglish (a mixture of Spanish and English). 150 years ago Spanglish did not exist

 

Lamar has been examining the stones in the most basic (and only useful method, considering the fact that the stones had been heavily cleaned before any experts got a look at them) method, that is to compare the writing style and linguistic evidence to known, genuine examples of Mexican/Spanish - and here those stone maps fail miserably!  I have posted links to genuine examples in other threads, but for some reason people just don't want to compare the Peralta stones to real, genuine Mexican and Spanish inscriptions - I can only guess as to why this is.  Is it because the Peralta stones look very different from real Mexican/Spanish ancient inscriptions, or is it almost a case of blind faith?  We treasure hunters are very much the optimists, and have a tendency to accept evidence that supports stories of lost treasures even when such evidence is of highly questionable nature.  It is good to keep a skeptical mind when ever examining any kind of treasure map(s) - for there are so many treasure maps, and so many of them are simply frauds. 

Springfield wrote:

The newbie needs to use his head

Amen brother!  This is an important fact, to keep our pants on when we start into any study of a lost treasure, it is SO easy and SO tempting to be seduced into believing in treasure maps, and be led on the proverbial wild-goose chase!  We also often forget that we are talking here on a public forum, that has a good many readers who (for one reason or another) do not make any posts, but simply read our banter and for better or worse often take our advice.  A fair number are of the 'newbie' category, those who are interested in searching for treasure but lack experience, and these folks are apt to be easily discouraged by being fooled in their efforts.  Our avocation of searching for treasures is not the most common 'hobby' and we need as many more members of our fraternity as we can get (there are plenty of folks who would put a stop to our pursuit of happiness, claiming we are "stealing" from the government) so I do try to encourage people to go and hunt treasure, but don't encourage them to pursue leads like these Peralta stones which are highly questionable at best.  Would you rather add numbers to the crowd who keep trying to pass laws to outlaw metal detectors, or add numbers to those who wish to preserve our freedom to hunt for treasures?  There are plenty of authenticated lost treasures to search for, without having to waste time, money and effort hunting for what could well be (and I am fairly convinced IS) a gigantic fraud.

If anything I have posted is of offense, my apologies, no offense was intended.  As always, good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco

Hola:  just a few words from     "south of the border,.down Mexico way"  The thingie between Yo & mi is debatable, most of the back country people even today work in the personal or informal exclusively.
 
My, since passed away, father in law was a prime example of this, his favorite expression was "ya me fui" . 
"now I am gone"

When he wrote, he used "B" many times instead of "V", in fact I received an em from one of my grandkiddies in the university in Obregon, where he  said "boy" several times, including "Yo Boy a las clases de computacion en la tarde"  sheeesh,  and I am paying for his education?.

What lamar said about formal or polite Spanish is quite correct, but something that may have happened  2-300 years ago on the frontier being in formal or correct Spanish, is quite debatable.   Only in the churches or gov't building would it normally have been found.   Merely researching permanent  border docments shows this clearly.

Heck, most Americans do not speak correct English for that matter.   just look at Oros' or Gullibles  posts.  heheheheh

Don Jose de La Mancha

Springfield,

Something to consider is that the Stone Maps' existence (outside of Apache Junction) was not known until 1964 when the article in Life Magazine came out. I do admit that the their being fakes is possible, but I don't think so.

My point was simply that little enough is known about them. To speak in absolutes makes no sense (unless you have some corroborating evidence we don't know about). I suggest you email or PM AZMULA either here or at the Lost Dutchman Forums. Like I said before, nobody has spent more time researching the Stone Maps and the Tumlinson Family than him. My research centered on the modern history of them.

Roy,

My friend, you never cease to amaze me with that selective memory of yours!  If you remember, I lived and breathed the "United States vs. MOEL". I also provided the documentation of the case and the SEC Litigation Releases. MOEL was NEVER convicted of anything criminal! The only thing they did was file their paperwork (which allowed them to sell shares in the company) late. They were stopped from selling shares until the requisite paperwork had been filed. THAT WAS IT! Nothing wrong. To show how important their trial was, it began at 2PM and was over the same day. I have spent more time in Traffic Court! They did not use the Stone Maps to sell stock. Both myself and Azmula were in contact with some of the original shareholders (Azmula had been in correspondence with one of the owners). They all stated that MOEL had kept the Stone Maps' existence a secret because Mitchell was still trying to find where they led to.

See Roy, all this information is still on the previous Stone Maps Thread. I didn't want to have to hash it out all over again.

Best-Mike

[foreign]

Real de Tayopa wrote:

Heck, most Americans do not speak correct English for that matter.   just look at Oros' or Gullibles  posts.  heheheheh

English?  Sheesh - who speaks that foreign lingo English anyway?    ;)

I have a single question for you mi amigo Jose' - can you show a genuine, authentic Spanish or Mexican stone inscription that dates to at least the 1840s, that looks similar to what we see on the so-called Peralta stones?  I could not find any examples that looked similar, in fact what I could find looks VERY different in style as well as grammar and spelling.  To my (admittedly poorly educated, growing slightly fuzzy with time) eye, the Peralta stones just look very wrong and more like a slightly amateurish fraud.  There are genuine clues that might lead to lost treasures, but keep in mind that there are many more FAKES than authentic, so a good treasure hunter ought to keep an open but skeptical mind and especially so when looking at ANY kind of treasure map(s). 

Mike (Gollum) wrote:

See Roy, all this information is still on the previous Stone Maps Thread. I didn't want to have to hash it out all over again.

Greetings mi amigo Mike, please read over my post to which you are responding - note that I said "no convictions" and that this only served to cast another shadow on those stones.  It seems that whenever we delve into anything that is Peralta-related we find frauds and deception.  Nothing to fill a treasure hunter with confidence!  No need to rehash MOEL, but the fact that they were investigated is alone enough to cast a shadow of doubt.  Just as having an accusation of rape, child-molesting etc can destroy the character of a person, just being accused and investigated does cast a shadow.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.  (And Jose' - I look forward to seeing the first melted dore bars some day soon!  You will be well-enough off that perhaps you might even feel like making a visit to SD some day!    ;) Hint, hint!)

your friend,
Oroblanco

Dear group;
To clarify a post:
"Wouldn"t it make sence that the words inscribed would be in very old latin. Latin has been the language of the catholic church from the start. It seems that any very old religous writings would be in very old latin and not in spanish."

In truth, Latin was not widely spoken by members of the Roman Catholic clergy until sometime after the 3rd century AD. Before that the language was mostly Greek, including ther celebration of the Mass. After the 3rd century it has been surmised that both languages were used interchangably for the following one hundred years or so, with Greek finally giving way to Latin around the late 4th, or early 5th century AD.

There are still many Eastern Orthodox churches celebrating their Masses in the original classical Greek language and they are quite melodious and beautiful, so much so that many devout Catholics, after hearing an Eastern Orthodox Mass, have wondered why the Roman Catholic Church switched from Greek to Latin in the first place.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar

I will be blunt if not impolite.
as I follow your posts I am tickled to see the perochial teaching in your posts.
Let someone who has the teaching be the one to burst your bubble.
I was raised as you were.
In a Jesuit School. Lets not say where, But for the sake of all concerned a state. Montana.

Look at it from the best of perspectives.
I am first hand evidence that the jesuits are not as they seem
They preach one thing and do another.
I may be speaking of one bad apple or the whole barrell.
As far as I'm concerned... the whole barrell is infected and has been for centuries.


Go out and get some serious feet on the ground experience.
You will see what all of the serious Spanish hunters find on a daily basis.

Give me your impression of this one.
Yup
It is Jesuite!

Enlighten me ....PLEASE!

YOUR FRIEND
Old Dog

Caveo Jesuitii

Welcome back my friend Oro.
An
Happy New Year!!

Thom

Thank you Thom for the kind words, and likewise I wish you a very prosperous and Happy New year! 
your friend,
Roy

Greetings,

I know that some folks are convinced the Peralta Stones are Jesuit-created; so...convince me.  What makes the Peralta Stones a Jesuit creation?  Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

OD, You know I'm very new at This. Would  / can you say what is in that Picture. I don't know what I'm looking at. 

Victorio,
Long time my friend!

The photo is of a Jesuit Death mask.

It would seem to me to either be a serious warning or a grave marker.

But it is a curious thing as there seems to be a great void here.
There are no other signs near it and it points to nothing
It just stares at the trail and looks ominous.

Thom

Thank You OD, I sent you a something  E- mail. I'm sure you will enjoy it. Thanks again. You are My Buddy. God Bless you !!!