Odyssey Marine Article...

Will Finders Be Keepers of Salvaged Treasure?
17-Ton Haul of Silver and Gold From Atlantic Pits U.S. Firm Against Spain

By John Ward Anderson
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, August 27, 2007

GIBRALTAR -- Returning 200 years ago from the New World to a Europe engulfed by the Napoleonic wars, Spanish Rear Adm. Don Jose Bustamente led a fleet of four frigates to a tragic homecoming. South of Portugal's Cape St. Mary, British warships spotted the Spaniards in October 1804 and ordered them to change course and sail for England. Bustamente refused, a battle erupted, and Spain's 36-gun Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes exploded and sank, "breaking like an egg, dumping her yolk into the deep," according to a Spanish account.

The ship took with it more than a million silver dollars freshly minted in Spain's American colonies, documents of the time suggest. The lost booty became the stuff of legend, one of the world's great sunken treasures.

This spring, modern technology caught up with sea-hunting lore when a U.S.-based salvage company, Odyssey Marine Explorations, announced that it had found a 17-ton hoard of silver and gold artifacts, including about 500,000 coins, at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean. Estimated value: $500 million.

But Odyssey, citing a need to keep looters at bay, isn't saying where it found the wreck, except that it was in international waters in the Atlantic, and claims to be unsure what ship it has found. It has given the wreck the code name Black Swan. But people familiar with the search say the evidence points to the Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes.

Odyssey's secrecy has touched off a three-month international legal battle. Spanish officials, convinced that the loot could be Spain's, filed suit in the United States to force disclosure of the wreck's name and location, block future recovery efforts and claim what has already been hauled up.

The Spanish coast guard has effectively barricaded Odyssey's main salvage vessel, the 251-foot Odyssey Explorer, in the port of Britain's overseas territory of Gibraltar, by threatening to seize it if it ventures out.

The fight renews a dispute between archaeologists and commercial salvors over rights to historic wrecks, a quarrel that is growing as new search technology and submersible robots bring to light more graves of ancient ships. It has raised old tensions between Spain on one side and Gibraltar and its mother country, Britain, on the other. And it has pitted a small, Tampa-based U.S. company, which essentially argues that finders are keepers, against Spain, which says it has a right to protect its national heritage.

The next battle over the ship will be fought not on the high seas but under arcane maritime laws in a federal courtroom in Tampa, the city to which Odyssey quietly flew the salvaged treasure before announcing its recovery in May.

In interviews in Gibraltar, Odyssey Explorer crew members described their methodical search for the wreck. First, the company's main survey ship, Ocean Alert, spent weeks at sea towing a sonar device back and forth, at 5 mph, 24 hours a day, producing picture-quality images of the ocean bottom -- a tedious process known as "mowing the lawn."

Company experts on the Odyssey read the digital printouts, identified anomalies on the ocean floor, then returned in the Ocean Explorer with a deep-sea robot called Zeus. Controlled from the surface, Zeus deploys an array of brilliant strobe lights and cameras as it delicately pokes through debris on the bottom. Its operators say the 8.5-ton robot can pick up an egg without breaking it.

Greg Stemm, co-founder of Odyssey, said the company conducts more thorough, archaeologically sensitive excavations of deep-sea sites than any organization in the world. But at the same time, he said, they are in business to find treasure, and the Black Swan was no fluke.

"Shipwrecks are a resource like any other resource, and every other resource -- scientific, cultural or otherwise, whether it's coins, whether it's stamps, whether it's antiques -- it's all owned, bought, sold and traded all the time," Stemm said.

Many archaeologists, citing the United Nations' 2001 convention on protecting underwater heritage, say that shipwreck sites should not be raided for profit. "In this case, you're looking at something which is a bottom-line business, and the guy is seeking to find things with pressure from investors and their own bottom line, so what protocols work for them certainly are not the same for us," said James Delgado, director of the Institute of Nautical Archaeology at Texas A&M University. "What's fascinating is seeing Greg Stemm trying to straddle the two worlds."

Given the value of the Black Swan site, Stemm said, "why in the world should we be disclosing where it is, when it's practically impossible to protect it?" Meanwhile, he said, Odyssey wants to return to the wreck to continue analyzing its identity, because for every ship it could be, "there is something that contradicts the evidence."

Spain's attorney in the case, James A. Goold of the Washington firm of Covington & Burling, called that "intentional ignorance."

"Everything points to Odyssey having known exactly what ship they were looking for and having then decided to claim it was unidentified," he said in a telephone interview.

"The law is quite clear that an owner of a ship remains the owner after it sinks, and a sovereign nation has a right to protect its cultural heritage," Goold said. "Spain has cultural heritage laws, and Spain has a program of underwater archeology, and there are projects Spain undertakes by itself or with archaeological institutes for the public benefit, but not so someone can scoop up gold coins and sell them on eBay."

Odyssey's announcement in May that it had found a huge treasure stunned the Spanish government, which had just completed an agreement allowing the firm to begin work on another wreck found off Gibraltar, believed to be the 80-gun HMS Sussex. The Sussex sank in a severe storm in 1694 in waters that Britain and Gibraltar claim are international but that Spain claims as its own.

Spanish officials initially took the announcement to mean that Odyssey had excavated the Sussex in violation of the agreement, which they immediately canceled. Odyssey countered with a second announcement that the Black Swan was not the Sussex and that it lay in international waters.

"They say it's not the Sussex, but who knows?" said a spokesman for the Spanish Foreign Ministry who commented on condition of anonymity, citing ministry rules. "The information they have given regarding the so-called treasure is not complete, and it's very difficult to be certain where it comes from -- which oceans, what water, international or not, and from which ship," he said. People familiar with the case say that Spain has since concluded that the wreck is the Spanish galleon.

Spanish newspapers accused Gibraltar and Britain of complicity, accusing them of allowing the U.S. company to spirit away Spanish treasures through the tiny British territory at the entrance to the Mediterranean. Odyssey and the governments of Britain and Gibraltar denied that allegation, saying that Odyssey flew the haul out of the main airport in Gibraltar legally, complying with all customs requirements.

Within days, a Spanish judge launched an investigation and issued search and arrest warrants against Odyssey's two main ships, the recovery vessel Odyssey Explorer and the survey ship Ocean Alert.

On July 12, as the Ocean Alert tried to leave Gibraltar, it was stopped and forcibly boarded by Spanish maritime police just outside the three-mile limit of British-declared waters but inside the 12-mile zone that Spain declares as its territorial waters and that Britain asserts is international. Police took the boat into the nearby Spanish port of Algeciras, where it was searched and stripped of computer hard drives, maps and other items before being released a week later.

The British government sent Spain a strong note of protest, a spokeswoman at the British Embassy in Madrid said. But at the same time, she said, "We pushed Odyssey to be as transparent as possible, as quickly as possible."

The Odyssey Explorer remains docked here, at a cost of more than $20,000 a day, company officials said. "We have nothing to hide," said Aladar Nesser, a former U.S. Navy officer who is now Odyssey's director for international business development. "But we're afraid they'll confiscate everything on it."

Archaeologists, historians and treasure buffs also joined in the hunt for the Black Swan, which took them to the Federal Admiralty Court in Tampa, where filings by Odyssey hint that the firm has found three of the most significant shipwrecks ever.
 
The papers, in which Odyssey asks to be named "custodian" of the wrecks, do not name any of the ships and give only vague descriptions of their graves, but undersea archaeologists and other experts say there is little doubt what they refer to: the Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes; the Merchant Royal, a 36-gun British navy vessel that sank in 1641 in bad weather off southwestern England with a fortune in silver, gold and jewels; and the SS Ancona, an Italian passenger liner torpedoed by a German U-boat in 1915 off the southeastern coast of Sardinia, taking 12 barrels of gold and a shipment of silver bars with it to the bottom.

Spain has filed to compel Odyssey to disclose the three sites, contending that some of the ships might have been Spanish naval vessels; if they were, they would be covered by sovereign immunity and would still belong to Spain even if lost in international waters. In another legal scenario, the treasures they carried might have belonged to the Spanish government, which could now file claims for them.

Either way, the judge in the case could still award Odyssey a reward for salvaging the vessels, ranging from a pittance to the entire wreck, Texas A&M's Delgado said.

If the court rules that one of the wrecks is the Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes, legal experts say, Spain will certainly claim that it has sovereign immunity and that it lost but never abandoned the ship, a key criterion.

Much of what was recovered was in the form of large, rocklike collections of encrusted coins, weighing an average of 60 pounds apiece and discovered in a "debris field" rather than in a single area that might be the remains of a ship, according to Odyssey's Nesser. That suggests that people aboard the ship might have thrown the cargo overboard to try to prevent a sinking, he said.

Underwater and treasure Web sites, which are brimming with online chats about the Black Swan, have suggested that the absence of a ship indicates that the booty was from the Spanish galleon, which by some accounts disintegrated in a tremendous explosion.
 
Citing comments by Stemm, some online participants have speculated that the company is preparing to argue that the loot was, in fact, abandoned by people throwing it overboard.

Odyssey remains mum on the location. "We are very, very concerned about protecting that site, and it is irresponsible for people to try to figure out where it is," Stemm said. He compared giving hints about it to dropping clues about the location of someone in a witness protection program.

"It's in the Atlantic," he said. "I'm not going to get into guessing games."

From N.Y. Times today, another take on Odyssey and what should happen to the treasure they recently recovered.



Pirate Diver



From today's N.Y. Times:
Editorial
Whose Treasure Is It Really?
The United Nations 2001 convention on protecting underwater cultural heritage was right to oppose the plundering of sunken archaeological treasures for profit. Unfortunately, only 15 countries have ratified the agreement, and the plundering has begun.

In what may become the biggest underwater find ever, Odyssey Marine Explorations, a commercial operation from Tampa, Fla., has reportedly hauled 17 tons of gold and silver from a ship widely believed to be the Spanish galleon Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes that was sunk by a British warship off the coast of Portugal in October 1804.

The company claims ownership of its find. And, of course, Spain is hiring lawyers and preparing its legal claim to the trove, claiming a sovereign nation’s right over its cultural heritage.

It’s clearly going to be a protracted legal battle, but we think it would only be right to let another set of plaintiffs stake their claim to the treasure, too: Spain’s former colonies in Latin America, where the loot was looted in the first place.

The hoard of gold and silver coins that sunk with the Mercedes was probably minted in Peru — where the galleon sailed for Cádiz, via Montevideo, in March of 1804.

Though a potential Peruvian claim to the treasure would rest on tenuous legal grounds — Peru wasn’t even an independent country in 1804, but part of the Spanish empire — it certainly could make a sound case based on moral considerations: The Inca didn’t freely give gold and silver to the Spanish invaders. Spain took it by force.

The moment seems ripe to reclaim long lost treasure. After stonewalling Italian officials for years, the Getty, the Met and the Boston Museum of Fine Arts have all agreed to return looted antiquities to Italy. Peru is negotiating with Yale to recover thousands of pieces taken by Hiram Bingham III from Machu Picchu in 1912 for a “loan” to the Peabody museum.

Two years ago, Italy returned to Ethiopia the 1,700-year-old Axum obelisk, taken to Rome in 1937 on the orders of Benito Mussolini. And it has promised to return a second-century Roman statue of Venus to Libya, where Italian troops stole it in 1913.

Admittedly, these cases of theft are much more recent, not on the appalling scale of the Spanish crown’s conquest and plunder of Latin American treasure hundreds of years ago.

But if Greece can insist on the ownership of the Elgin Marbles, which Lord Elgin took from the Parthenon to ship to the British Museum in 1801 — when Greece was part of the Ottoman Empire — Peru surely has a shot at the gold of Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes.

The fate of the recovered treasure is likely to be defined now in a federal court in Tampa, where Odyssey quietly stashed the hoard before announcing its find. When the lawyers from Odyssey face off with those representing Spain, perhaps Peru’s lawyers should come, too.

[rocklike collections of encrusted coins, weighing an average of 60 pounds apiece and discovered in a "debris field]

i find it odd the coins would be cemented togather, i would think the coins would flutter, not stay togather. no ship is realy odd as well.
i wounder wgat has cemented the coins, calsite would cement the sand, but not in that enviroment.

i quote
"Much of what was recovered was in the form of large, rocklike collections of encrusted coins, weighing an average of 60 pounds apiece and discovered in a "debris field" rather than in a single area that might be the remains of a ship, according to Odyssey's Nesser. That suggests that people aboard the ship might have thrown the cargo overboard to try to prevent a sinking, he said.

Underwater and treasure Web sites, which are brimming with online chats about the Black Swan, have suggested that the absence of a ship indicates that the booty was from the Spanish galleon, which by some accounts disintegrated in a tremendous explosion.
 
Citing comments by Stemm, some online participants have speculated that the company is preparing to argue that the loot was, in fact, abandoned by people throwing it overboard."

From N.Y. Times today, another take on Odyssey and what should happen to the treasure they recently recovered.



Pirate Diver



From today's N.Y. Times:
Editorial
Whose Treasure Is It Really?
The United Nations 2001 convention on protecting underwater cultural heritage was right to oppose the plundering of sunken archaeological treasures for profit. Unfortunately, only 15 countries have ratified the agreement, and the plundering has begun.

In what may become the biggest underwater find ever, Odyssey Marine Explorations, a commercial operation from Tampa, Fla., has reportedly hauled 17 tons of gold and silver from a ship widely believed to be the Spanish galleon Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes that was sunk by a British warship off the coast of Portugal in October 1804.

The company claims ownership of its find. And, of course, Spain is hiring lawyers and preparing its legal claim to the trove, claiming a sovereign nation’s right over its cultural heritage.

It’s clearly going to be a protracted legal battle, but we think it would only be right to let another set of plaintiffs stake their claim to the treasure, too: Spain’s former colonies in Latin America, where the loot was looted in the first place.

The hoard of gold and silver coins that sunk with the Mercedes was probably minted in Peru — where the galleon sailed for Cádiz, via Montevideo, in March of 1804.

Though a potential Peruvian claim to the treasure would rest on tenuous legal grounds — Peru wasn’t even an independent country in 1804, but part of the Spanish empire — it certainly could make a sound case based on moral considerations: The Inca didn’t freely give gold and silver to the Spanish invaders. Spain took it by force.

The moment seems ripe to reclaim long lost treasure. After stonewalling Italian officials for years, the Getty, the Met and the Boston Museum of Fine Arts have all agreed to return looted antiquities to Italy. Peru is negotiating with Yale to recover thousands of pieces taken by Hiram Bingham III from Machu Picchu in 1912 for a “loan” to the Peabody museum.

Two years ago, Italy returned to Ethiopia the 1,700-year-old Axum obelisk, taken to Rome in 1937 on the orders of Benito Mussolini. And it has promised to return a second-century Roman statue of Venus to Libya, where Italian troops stole it in 1913.

Admittedly, these cases of theft are much more recent, not on the appalling scale of the Spanish crown’s conquest and plunder of Latin American treasure hundreds of years ago.

But if Greece can insist on the ownership of the Elgin Marbles, which Lord Elgin took from the Parthenon to ship to the British Museum in 1801 — when Greece was part of the Ottoman Empire — Peru surely has a shot at the gold of Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes.

The fate of the recovered treasure is likely to be defined now in a federal court in Tampa, where Odyssey quietly stashed the hoard before announcing its find. When the lawyers from Odyssey face off with those representing Spain, perhaps Peru’s lawyers should come, too.

Dont want to go back to far though Imagine if America had to hand back its land to the Indians who lived there 1000s of years before they arrived. I personally think the salvage company should get to keep the lot. To much --deleted-- footing with spain for my liking. But im guessing the crew have something to hide because they refuse to give the cords for the find which does look suspect, if it was found in international waters what is the problem with giving the location?

Peerless... The location of the recovery has been put under seal by the Court. I'm sure the Judge can decide whether or not it's in international waters.

THE UNIDENTIFIED, SHIPWRECKED
VESSEL, its apparel, tackle
appurtenances and cargo located within
center point coordinates:
(to be provided to the Court under seal)

LA RAZON – SPAIN

September 10, 2007

Stemm: “The Spanish Government has been very aggressive with Odyssey”
El cofundador de la empresa «caza-tesoros» recibe a LA RAZÓN en Tampa (Florida) y asegura que quiere seguir trabajando con España

Marta Torres

Tampa (FLORIDA)- His employees call him Greg and talk of him like a big brother they admire, but that they know is knowledgeable about some things.  If the image that comes to us is that of an unreachable and inaccessible man, in Tampa (Florida), where the central base of Odyssey is, a company dedicated to underwater archaeology, has nothing to do with him.  The people that work for him justify it because “he is always very busy”.   But when it is a matter of presenting documentation before the international jurisdiction we speak of Mr. Stemm and things become much more serious.  In the middle of May Odyssey Marine Exploration (OME) made public the find of a treasure of 500,000 coins of gold and silver after the shipwreck of a boat from which, at the moment, it has only said was in international waters.  It has not revealed anything of its identify because it assures that it does not know it, nor a word about its exact place. “There is no law that protects the treasure in international waters”, is his reply.

“Do I seem like the devil?”

The meeting of LA RAZON with Greg Stemm, one of the co-founders of Odyssey Marine Exploration, takes place in a restaurant in Tampa (Florida) to lunch after visit to the Museum of Science and Industry.  There can be seen an exposition where it traces a route in five rooms with some of the objects recovered in the explorations of Odyssey, like the shipwrecks of the “SS Republic” and of the “Blue China”.  Stemm does not extend his hand with force, he smiles and, at least, in our meeting can’t help but joking.  Things are clear.  We sit at the table and then when he skewers me, it is always with a smile. “Do I seem like the devil?”. You see sport pants, with maroon shoes and a light blue polo where you can read the word Odyssey.

- I would like it if you gave me your version of the story of the project ‘Black Swan’ or ‘Cisne Negro’.
- One of the things that has surprised me the most, and that has not been picked up much on the part of the Spanish press, is that we came to the Ministry of Culture before the ‘Black Swan’ project and invited them to participate.  It is not correct, therefore, to say that we have not been transparent.  When someone doesn’t want to do it, why would you invite the Government of this country to take part in a project?

- What then was the response of the Spanish Government?
- They told us “We already answered”. And they didn’t do it.
- It has been said that your proposal was not good enough, that it lacked a scientific basis.
- I personally attended some meetings. In them was emphasized that our archaeological plan was better than any other that had been presented before.  I have the impression that the matter has to do with politics, not with the project.
- Why with politics?
- For a very simple reason: the “Odyssey case” has turned into a political matter.
- What are you referring to?
- For many years, Odyssey has had a very good reputation and an excellent relationship with the Government of your country. When we undertook the “Sussex” Project all was approved by Spain, including the archaeological plan.  The only thing that remained was observers named by Spain.  Politically the problem has to do with the central Government and the autonomous, in this case the Andalusian community.  When we began with the ‘Sussex’ the central Government said that it was a matter of a special situation and that it was under its control and that we did not need autonomous permissions.
- Why have you still not revealed the place where the wreck was found?
- Why do you think we must make this information public?
- Because it is one of the keys to settle the controversy
- I am going to pose you a question: if you knew the exact place of something very valuable that, further, is without protection by international legislation, would you tell the rest of the world where it is?  Do you think that is of a responsible person? We have already said publicly that there are more objects of value in the place of the shipwreck and that it is not in Spanish waters.  In fact, Carmen Calvo recognized it.
- Does it take you so much time to verify the identity of a shipwreck?
- How do you think the identity of a boat can be known?
- You are the expert
- Then good, I as an expert tell you that there is absolutely nothing that allows us to verify the identify of the boat. When we went to search for the ‘Sussex’ we found a boat in the place of the shipwreck that fit with it.  Then we bring the archaeologists to study the place and we were there for a year.  We presented a detailed archaeological report of the place to the British Government.  “Based on all the archaeological evidence it seems that this is that of the ‘Sussex’”, was its verdict.  And we moved the report to Andalusia. There they told us it was not sufficient. “It does not probe that it is the ‘Sussex’”, they said.  It is the position that they took at the time when we presented our exhaustive report.  Now, when scarcely four months have passed and we have assured that we do not have confirmation of the sunken wreck, is it normal that they press us so much over the identify of the shipwreck?  What side are they on?  Do they want scientific certainties or is it better to give a response even if it is for pure lucubration?
- Did you expect that the Spanish Government would act has it has done?
- We were surprised that, after the way in which Odyssey is acting and after presenting the project before an American Federal court and following all the procedures that frame the law, some members of the Spanish Government have taken such an aggressive posture in this matter, like, for example, Carmen Calvo.  The case is in a Federal Court that is the only one that protects the places of the shipwreck in international waters. We would have to wait for the pronouncement before emitting judgments and condemning.  Why do you call someone a pirate if he is ready to do everything in conformance with the law?
- Is this one of the reasons for which you look to the US Court, that pronounced in favor of who found the “Nuestra Senora de Atocha” years ago?
- No, It is because the American Federal Court is the only one in the world that extends jurisdiction in international waters.
- How is the relationship of Odyssey with the Spanish Government of now going to be going forward?
- The matter is in the courts.  I regret the positions that they have taken based on rumors and false information that intoxicates them.  I hope that the people can see what Odyssey has done – that many times does not coincide with the information that is published – to collaborate with the Spanish Government.  When this occurs they will look at us with other eyes. I am sure.
- Will you work with Spain again?
- I hope to able to do it again.  With this case, Spain is taking notice that it does not have the legal resources to protect is cultural patrimony lost on shipwrecks that are found in international waters.  It is very nice to say “we are going to claim all the Spanish shipwrecks in the world”, but this does not follow the Convention of the Sea.  In accordance with the law of the Convention of the Sea, for a shipwreck to have sovereign immunity, it has to be exclusively on a non-commercial mission.  If the Government has no way to protect those boats in international waters they will end up being pirated.  Odyssey is, at this time, the first company in the world that can undertake archaeological mission of this kind.  We continue offering our hand to the Spanish Government to offer them our services.
- Why did you decide to take the coins to Tampa?
- They were sent to a place in which they could be conserved.  There is not center for conservation of this kind in Europe.
- Are their more coins?
- Perhaps there are more …
- A mystery … can you explain to me where the name of the project ‘Black Swan’ comes from?
- It comes from a book whose author is Nassim Nicholas Taleb.  When we found the wreck I was reading it. And in this case in particular we thought that it could be called ‘Black Swan’ because we were sure that it was going to be an enormous surprise for the international community.
- What would happen if the boat had a Spanish flag and was in international waters?
- For the Spanish Government to a shipwreck that is in international waters it would have to prove that the boat is subject to sovereign immunity. This would be the challenge of the Spanish Government.  According to the Convention of the Sea only military boats that did not form a part of mercantile missions can be subject to sovereign immunity.  There is no doubt: the majority of the Spanish boats that transported objects of value did so from the New to the Old World.
- Why do you not like to be qualified as a ‘treasure hunter’?
- ‘Treasure hunters’ are motivated by money and do not govern themselves by archaeological principles.  We do today the best underwater archaeology that exists.  We have found many interesting and valuable shipwrecks that we have analyzed, simply analyzed, without extracting one single object.  All the information remains stored in a database and can be consulted by the countries that have an interest.  This is not what a treasure hunter does.
- The Odyssey matter has forced Spain to work on a Plan for Protection of Underwater Patrimony.  Days ago it was put forward by the Minister of Culture.  What do you think about it?
- For years we have expressed our concern for this fact and we have offered our services to help with the protection of those places without any charge added.  It’s ironic that it finally has an initiative in response to the discovery of Odyssey of the ‘Black Swan’, above all, when at the time Spain was invited to participate in this project and it rejected the opportunity.

Fortune Mag. Article...

Subject: Curse of the Black Swan
Author: TIM ARANGO
Date: Sep 17, 2007
Edition: U.S. Edition
Source: Fortune
Section: DISPATCHES: REPORTS FROM THE FRONT LINES OF BUSINESS
Volume: 156
Issue: 6
Page: 45
Status: New article
Word Count: 1655
 
Greg Stemm's company found the richest trove of sunken treasure ever. Now comes the hard part: keeping it.
           
ON APRIL 10, a Gulfstream G-V took off from the British territory of Gibraltar en route to Tampa with a load of Colonial-era silver and gold coins salvaged from a centuries-old shipwreck. On May 16 a chartered Boeing 757 made the same journey, its cargo hold jammed with even more coins - this time over half a million of them, weighing about 17 tons. Today all those coins are locked up at a secret location in Florida. And if those who discovered the loot are to be believed, there's plenty more where that came from - some estimates put the total haul at $500 million, which would make it the richest find of sunken treasure in history.
           
Where is this treasure, exactly? Odyssey Marine Exploration, the Tampa-based company that found it, won't say. The company won't even reveal the name of the sunken ship; the site is code-named Black Swan, after a book of the same name about unpredictable but consequential events. All we really know about Black Swan is that it's in international waters 100 miles west of Gibraltar under 3,600 feet of ocean - and that the Spanish believe it all belongs to them. It's a wonderful drama, straight out of a Clive Cussler thriller: precious metals, races against time, undersea robots, and international intrigue. How that intrigue turns out could be a watershed for Odyssey and its shareholders.
           
Wait. Shareholders? That's right, Odyssey is a public company (Nasdaq ticker: OMEX). The idea of searching for sunken treasure might strike some as a boyish fantasy - fine for Cussler et. al., but not for a sophisticated modern corporation. And Greg Stemm, co-founder and co-chairman of Odyssey, probably wouldn't disagree with that. "Let's see. You have no experience, and you're going to buy a research vessel to look for shipwrecks. Oh, sure, I'll invest in that," says Stemm, a trim, gray-bearded man of 50 whose only remotely relevant work experience before getting into the business in 1986 was running a dinner cruise in Jamaica. (He also worked in advertising and was once Bob Hope's press man.)
           
But Odyssey has proved seductive to investors - even after a Securities and Exchange Commission investigation forced Stemm and his partner, Odyssey's co-founder, John Morris, from their first company, Seahawk Deep Ocean Technology, in 1994 for allegedly overstating the value of artifacts it recovered from a wreck off the Florida Keys. Stemm and Morris fought the SEC in court and won - which paved the way for the pair's return to the ocean's depths.
           
There's plenty to find down there. Unesco has estimated there are about three million shipwrecks worldwide, but in only a fraction of case - fewer than 1,000, by Stemm's reckoning - does it make economic sense to send a $4 million underwater robot to look for treasure. "There's billions of dollars scattered on the ocean floor - that's a fact - and we have the technology to find it," says Stemm, working through a seafood lunch in a Tampa mall five minutes from Odyssey's offices. "The business model is very simple. The execution is complex."
           
The company holds a pitch meeting every Thursday in which its researchers, each of whom covers a part of the world, toss out ideas culled from studying old maps and ship logs. It's a slow process: Odyssey has been in business since 1997 but, pre-Black Swan, had found just one big revenue-generating trove. That was the 2003 discovery of the S.S. Republic, a Civil War--era steamship that sank in a hurricane off the coast of Georgia in 1865. According to an SEC filing, as of the end of last year Odyssey had sold $33 million worth of coins from the Republic, and it has plenty more in its inventory. "It might take us 20 years to sell all the coins from the Republic," Stemm says.
           
Odyssey, which doesn't issue financial guidance nor hold quarterly earnings calls, is still waiting for sustained profits: In 2004, when the coins from the Republic first hit the market, the company earned $5.2 million in net income on revenue of $17.6 million. By last year revenue had slipped to $5.1 million, and the company lost $19.1 million. Then, in mid-May, on the day after Black Swan was announced, Odyssey's stock jumped 81%. (The price fell in subsequent days, but as FORTUNE went to press, OMEX remains about 32% above where it was trading before the discovery announcement.)
           
The goal is to find enough shipwrecks to sustain the business in other ways.
Odyssey sells tickets to an exhibit at Tampa's Museum of Science and Industry, which features a replica of Zeus, a submersible robot that uses a claw and suction device to pick up artifacts from the ocean floor; every one of the Republic's thousands of coins was retrieved that way. And the company is close to announcing a TV show Stemm describes as "Jacques Cousteau meets Deadliest Catch," the latter being the Discovery Channel show about crab fishermen in Alaska. "Another shipwreck or so and we'll have enough inventory for the foreseeable future," says Stemm. For that to happen, Odyssey will need lots of luck - and, as the kingdom of Spain has made clear, really good lawyers.
           
When news of the Black Swan discovery hit newspapers in mid-May, Spanish officials sprang into action. On May 31, Madrid made a claim in U.S. District Court in Tampa - a legal maneuver aimed at forcing Odyssey to reveal details about the ship. Jim Goold, a Washington, D.C., attorney and underwater archaeologist who represents Spain, told FORTUNE, "There's very strong reason to believe that what Odyssey has done is strip a sunken Spanish ship of valuables. That's why we're seeing an extraordinary effort to maintain secrecy."
           
That's one interpretation of Odyssey's silence. Another is that it's simply afraid of a gold rush. "This is an industry that no one cares about until someone finds something," says professor David Bederman, a maritime-law expert at Emory University School of Law and an Odyssey board member. "If you're lucky enough to find something, everyone will make a claim, whether it's legitimate or not."
           
Back in Spain a judge ordered a criminal investigation, and when Odyssey's vessel Ocean Alert, a 240-foot boat loaded with millions of dollars of sonar equipment, was leaving the Port of Gibraltar in July, armed members of the Guardia Civil boarded the ship and forced it to dock in the Spanish port of Algeciras. "Odyssey's crew and attorneys were forced by the Spanish officials to sit in the scalding sun for approximately seven hours without food or water or use of the restroom," according to a court filing. Authorities seized the hard drive belonging to a company attorney and the notebooks of a reporter for the Gibraltar Chronicle, who was along writing a story. The company's other ship, Odyssey Explorer, a 251-footer that deploys the Zeus, remains effectively blockaded in Gibraltar. (The company often charters boats to foil amateur treasure hunters, who tend to track Odyssey's two-vessel fleet rather obsessively.)
           
The controversy created a media storm in Spain. "It's probably as big a story as our subprime meltdown is here," Stemm says. In the States the story took on a political tinge. Noting that presidential candidate John Edwards is an investor in Fortress, the big hedge fund that is one of Odyssey's largest shareholders, a New York tabloid blared: "Avast, matey! Is John Edwards a pirate? The Spaniards say yes, and they want their plundered loot back."
           
Odyssey stores most of its shipwreck take in its conservation center, a squat building near the company's headquarters. The walls are covered with undersea photos, including a tantalizing shot of coins scattered at the Republic site called "Carpet of Gold." On shelves are bric-a-brac from other explorations: old medicine bottles, shot glasses, religious artifacts, and porcelain. In the fridge are still-corked bottles of beer, peaches, and gooseberries from the Civil War era. "It's all about sharing the excitement with the public," Stemm says.
           
What you won't see in the conservation center, for now, are the real valuables, the coins that fuel Odyssey's business. Those are kept at that secret location - the same place that holds the Black Swan haul as it awaits various court decisions. If the company prevails, it'll have that massive hoard to draw on for years to come. But even if it loses, Black Swan won't be Odyssey's last big project. Up next is a deal with Britain to salvage the H.M.S. Sussex, a Royal Navy ship that sank in the Mediterranean in 1694 carrying gold for the Duke of Savoy. Estimated value: a cool $1 billion.

History Channel...

Odyssey Marine Exploration helps Hunter Ellis, the host of the hit History Channel series Digging For The Truth tell the story of Barbary Pirates in the Mediterranean this Monday night, September 24, at 9pm.

In the episode, titled Digging For The Truth: Pirates! Terror in the Mediterranean, Odyssey Marine Exploration shares underwater video, artifacts and photomosaics of two Mediterranean shipwrecks. Both sites, discovered by Odyssey, are suggestive of the remains of wooden Xebec ships, a type of ship favored by the Barbary Pirates.

Digging For The Truth visits with Odyssey co-founder Greg Stemm on board Odyssey's archaeological recovery platform, the Odyssey Explorer, to discuss these shipwreck discoveries. The show also examines the history of the Barbary Pirates and several others shipwrecks in their search for an authentic Barbary Pirate shipwreck.

Digging For The Truth: Pirates: Terror in the Mediterranean
The History Channel
Premiere: Monday, September 24, 9:00pm
Encore: Tuesday, September 25, 1:00am

Episode Synopsis from The History Channel:
The dastardly deeds of the Barbary Pirates are little known today, despite the fact that they terrorized the seas and the shores of Europe for more than 400 years. Join host Hunter Ellis, Kara Cooney and Charles Ingram, as they mount a special expedition to find the first-ever bona fide Barbary pirate vessel at the bottom of the sea.

pretend the land across from my house is international land... I heard there was lots of buried artifacts and treasure there and have done alot of research and finally one day, i found it!!!  I took what i could so i can protect it but dont want to tell anybody about it because everyone will start wanting to grab treasure for themself after i did all the hard work in pinpointing where it was,plus those little grubby fingers of others might destroy precious artifacts in their greedy haste.  That there my friend is why they are not telling anybody where it is in international waters. Is that so hard to comprehend?

malady

Sincerely, I don't understand from where the idea that OMR can have recovered the Mercedes' load is born. It is possible that everything comes from some "dark" public character that had necessity to give explanations "absurd" and "incoherent" to wash his hands from some specify responsibilities.

http://www.mensvogue.com/magazine/a...ticles/2007/10/blackbook_black_swan

Sincerely, I don't understand from where the idea that OMR can have recovered the Mercedes' load is born. It is possible that everything comes from some "dark" public character that had necessity to give explanations "absurd" and "incoherent" to wash his hands from some specify responsibilities.

When you see the dates on the coins you'll understand.   

TELL US JEFF , WHAT ARE THE DATES, 1616ish

TELL US JEFF , WHAT ARE THE DATES, 1616ish

So far 1754-1804

TELL US JEFF , WHAT ARE THE DATES, 1616ish

So far 1754-1804

Very similar to the Carolus dollar on Mr Jeff K's website near the Mercedes remarks. Very nice coin by the way.

So far 1754-1804
[/quote]
Jeffk (or anyone who wants to add some info),  For the purpose of my question, let's assume it's the Mercedes.  At the moment, based on the information it seems a likely possibility.  I mean you have the statement to some effect that it looked like cargo was just dumped by itself.  That would seem to make sense since based on what I read on your site about the Mercedes the ship broke in 2 and spilled it's contents into the ocean.  So coins but no wreck in the immediate area.  The dates of the coins -- so far seem to be right unless of-course they have a later mint date that they are not revealing.  So my question -- assuming it's the Mercedes  -- What was the purpose of the Mercedes at the time and for who?  And, what would that mean as far as salvage rights and the law as you understand it?  Also, one other question -- any ideas on when the Explorer may attept to leave and what they may be doing to expedite this matter -- or  reasons not too?
PDJ

PDJ... If it turns out to be the Mercedes, then Spain has no claim under international law. She was privately owned, and the cargo was commercial. Spain cannot claim sovereign immunity. I hear they are working diplomatically to get the Explorer out of Gibraltar, but I don't know when this will happen. I also hear they may have a leased ship working somewhere, but that's more or less a rumor.

"Sovereign immunity only applies to warships that have to fulfill very specific criteria according to the Law of the Sea Convention, and they must be exclusively on a non-commercial service. In addition, virtually all Spanish "Treasure Ships" coming from the New World during the Colonial era (including the one mentioned in the London Times article - the Mercedes) were mostly carrying money owned by merchants - not by the King, which would make it pretty obvious that they were not "exclusively on a non-commercial mission." Besides, even salvors of sovereign immune shipwrecks are still able to claim salvage awards.
 
As for merchant vessels such as the Merchant Royal, there is no legal mechanism by which Spain can claim sovereign immunity for a cargo on a merchant ship. Even if they absolutely proved that they owned the cargo (which is not borne out by the most basic research), Odyssey would still get a substantial salvage award."

Do know who owned the Mercedes and / or who owned the rights to it's cargo?  Also, was any insurance settlement paid on the cargo at the time and by who?  Also, not being familiar w/ the filings and the court procedings -- what stage is Odyessy at in the courts?  I have seen the filings, but don't understand what the 'case management report' due by Odyssey (if I read that right) on Oct.22 is.  Do you know what that means and what could be expected to occur in the court procedings next, in your opinion?

I have no idea who owned what, but I'll bet Odyssey knows. I haven't heard anything about insurance claims, but doubt if there are any. The only way a descendant of one of the owners can make a claim is if they were "willed" the cargo, which I seriously doubt. The case management is now due by Oct 30th, and will be supplied by both sides. It is more or less a schedule on how they plan to handle the case. Odyssey will more than likely file a response to Goold's last motion before that date.

Drawing of Diego Alvear, vice admiral of the Spanish fleet that combatted on October 5,1804 on the cape of Santa Maria, south of Portugal.  The image represents the moment when the Mercedes exploded.

1754-1804
NOW THAT IS VERY INTERISTING
isnt 1804 the year king george3 lost the american colonies.
this button is 1804ish and i am very interisted in anything that happened at this time period. 
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,107185.0.html

http://disney.go.com:80/disneypictu...biggesttreasurehunt/comingsoon.html

TAMPA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Odyssey Marine Exploration (NasdaqCM: OMEX), the world's leader in the field of deep-ocean shipwreck exploration, today announced that Mark D. Gordon will assume the duties of President and Chief Operating Officer on October 16, 2007.
Gordon, who has served in various capacities with Odyssey since 2005 and served as Executive Vice President, Sales and Business Development since January 2007, will report to John Morris, co-founder and CEO, and work closely with co-founder Greg Stemm in managing the day-to-day operations of the Company.
“Mark Gordon has been an invaluable part of Odyssey’s team since 2005. His knowledge of our company and his past business experience and successes make him the perfect candidate for this position.” said John Morris. “This move correlates with the departure of George Becker and Davis Howe, who will now serve as consultants focused on developing strategic partnership opportunities in promising, but non-core, business areas.”
George Becker will retire from his position as Executive Vice President of Attractions and will become an outside consultant on October 16, 2007. With 37 years experience as a themed attraction senior executive, Becker will be working to develop strategic partnerships that maximize the value of Odyssey’s unique and inspiring exhibit content.
“Visitor acceptance was very high at Odyssey’s initial exhibit venue in New Orleans, LA and is also very positive at the current location at the Museum of Science and Industry in Tampa, FL. Odyssey has the ability to continually upgrade content through new shipwreck finds,” commented Becker. “Partnership opportunities for fixed and traveling exhibitions, both domestically and internationally are being explored.”
“By exploring opportunities to partner with a best-in-class, well funded operator in the themed attraction industry, Odyssey can capitalize on the investment made to date in the Company’s attraction assets, while still focusing our resources on our core competency, finding shipwrecks and recovering valuable cargo,” said John Morris. “George Becker is a leader with an incredible amount of experience and expertise in the attractions arena and we are very pleased to have him continue working to develop strategic partnerships in this area.”
Also effective October 16, Davis Howe will resign from his position as Chief Operating Officer to focus on determining the feasibility and potential business model for bio technical research of deep sea biological and genetic material recovered by Odyssey as an outside consultant.
“Samples of biological materials have been gathered by Odyssey from deep ocean shipwreck sites, including the SS Republic®, in order to conduct research trials,” said Howe. “Preliminary results from research conducted during the past three years on Odyssey’s samples show some interesting results – and this opportunity allows me to pursue my interest in the field of microbiology while investigating a possible business opportunity that is outside of Odyssey’s core business.”
“Davis Howe has been an important part of Odyssey’s incredible growth over the past three years. His expertise in building teams and systems to facilitate smooth day-to-day operations has been a key factor in our successes,” stated Greg Stemm, Odyssey Co-founder. “We’re excited by the possibilities that may arise from the bio technical project that Davis will be investigating.”
About Mark D. Gordon
Mark D. Gordon worked as an independent consultant for Odyssey beginning in January 2005 before becoming the Company’s Director of Business Development in June 2005. He was appointed Executive Vice President of Sales and Business Development in January 2007, overseeing the Attraction, Business Development and Retail Merchandising operations for the Company. Prior to joining Odyssey Gordon owned and managed four different entrepreneurial ventures from 1987 to 2003 including Synergy Networks which he sold to the Rockefeller Group in 2003. Mr. Gordon founded Synergy Networks in 1993 and served as CEO until September of 2003. He subsequently served as President of Rockefeller Group Technology Services Mid Atlantic (RGTSMA), a member of Rockefeller Group International, from September 2003 to December 2004. Gordon received a B.S./Business Administration in 1982 and MBA in Finance in 1983 from the American University.

Currenty on Disney.com's home page!!! -- Odyssey Marine sponsored game -- nice publicity.  www.disney.com (the site is pulling up a Hanna Montana thing first and then after a few seconds rolls to the video -- watch the video).

Alot  of new stuff today.  Check this out -- http://www.shipwreckquest.com/ Sign up to beta test (limited numbers allowed).

gibfocus - 15th October 2007
(2007-10-15 23:55:00 )

 
Odyssey to depart early morning

The Odyssey Explorer, the main vessel belonging to Odyssey Marine Exploration is to depart Gibraltar at 9am this Tuesday morning confirmed officials from the company this evening.

Following reports over its speculated time of departure gibfocus was this evening informed of the time of departure of the vessel. Reports of the skipper having fractured his hand were also dismissed, with a project manager from the vessel claimed to have been the person involved in the incident and not the skipper.

Winners to be announced on Entertainment Tonight!  The grand prize looks to be a brand new Mercedes Benz fill w/ 'Treasure'.  That should be an interesting 'eye catching' prize.
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/071016/20071016005633.html?.v=1

Spain is up to her old tricks again!


 
Big business of deep-sea treasure hunters
By Kathryn Westcott
BBC News 


The interception of a treasure-hunt ship off the coast of Gibraltar is the latest broadside in a tense battle between a US-based salvage company and the Spain over an unidentified shipwreck and its rich cargo of gold and silver coins.


On Tuesday, patrol boats from Spain's maritime police intercepted the 76m Odyssey Explorer, owned by underwater salvage firm Odyssey Marine International, three miles off the coast of Gibraltar. It was ordered to the Spanish port of Algeciras for inspection
Spain's Guardia Civil has been keeping a close eye on the company's vessel since a Spanish judge ordered that it be detained and searched if it left port in Gibraltar.

The company says its recovery vessel has been effectively blockaded since the ruling in June. Spain believes it could provide clues to the identity and location of the wreck that yielded half-a-million colonial era silver and gold coins.

It suspects that a Spanish galleon is being secretly plundered - or that the wreck lies in Spanish waters.

Odyssey Marine Explorations - which became the most famous deep water treasure hunting company when it announced the discovery last May - says it is keeping the location of the wreck secret, to protect the site from looters.

All it is saying is that the wreck - codenamed Black Swan - is somewhere in the Atlantic.

Galleon graveyard


The haul, which has an estimated value of $500m (£350m), is now at a secret location in Florida, where Odyssey is based.


A court in the state is currently considering motions filed by the company and by Spain concerning the ownership of the booty.
Treasure hunters have long dreamed of discovering hauls of gold and silver in the western Mediterranean. The area, is a graveyard of French, Spanish and British galleons and warships sunk by storms and pirates during Spain's long dominance of the sea.

Once the domain of schoolboy fantasies, the hunt for treasure on the deep ocean floor has become big business for companies like Odyssey. And the company's recent listing on the Nasdaq indicates that it is a business that investors are prepared to take seriously.

Odyssey has several shipwreck projects in various stages of development around the world, but its involvement with the Spanish goes back almost a decade.


 RULES OF THE WAVES
Seas and oceans governed by UN Laws of the Sea
Ownership of sunken property in international waters governed by the law of salvage and the law of finds
Law of salvage: If property is owned, those finding it are entitled to compensation for their salvage efforts
Law of finds: Salvor is entitled to all reclaimed property if it is proved to be abandoned
Spain insists it retains rights to all its sunken treasure
Odyssey intends its haul to be dealt with under US federal law, where previous judgements have sometimes granted exclusive rights to salvors 

"Odyssey has had an excellent working relationship with the Spanish Government for many years," Greg Stemm, co-founder of Odyssey Marine Exploration told the BBC News website.
"We have always respected Spain's interest in its maritime heritage and have therefore consistently communicated our activities to Spain."


The relationship has soured over the past few months. In July, another of Odyssey's vessels was stopped and forcibly boarded as it tried to leave Gibraltar. A computer was confiscated.

The company told the BBC News website that it intends to seek compensation from Spain for revenues lost because of the kingdom's intervention in its activities.

British warship

The battle over the Black Swan treasure is now jeopardising another more lucrative project: the salvage of a British warship that Odyssey believes it has discovered in the western Mediterranean.

The British Government is collaborating with Odyssey to recover the warship, thought to be the HMS Sussex, which went down in a storm off Gibraltar in the Mediterranean Sea in 1694.


According to the Council for British Archaeology, it was on its way to provide British financial support to the Duke of Savoy during the war against Louis XIV. The council says she was believed to have been carrying bullion, which is estimated by some experts to be worth some £2.5bn ($5bn) today.
The warship apparently lies in waters that Britain and Gibraltar claim are international but that Spain claims as its own.

Diplomatic talks resulted in an agreement being reached with Spain earlier this year but the project appears is on hold.

A spokeswoman for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office told the BBC News website that the "on-going court case between Spain and Odyssey should be resolved first."

It is anyone's guess how long this will take.

This will no doubt please archaeologists - including the Council for British Archaeology - who were enraged by the deal.

Experts describe such activities as commercial treasure hunting under the guise of archaeology, arguing that a dangerous precedent would be set allowing private firms to profit from historic wrecks.

Technology

And in Spain, Odyssey's activities have been painted as modern-day piracy.

The company acknowledges that its primary concerns are commercial but it also has a mission statement that sets out how it also wants to do good archaeology.

It maintains that it works to the highest of standards, employing experts and archaeologists.


"Our contract with the United Kingdom sets an excellent example of how such a collaboration between the public and private sector can produce excellent archaeological work," says Mr Stemm.
And he says that the model - the first of its kind with a government - could be extended to other countries, including Spain.

Odyssey undertakes multi-million-dollar operations, deploying sophisticated deep-sea technology and robotics to scour the ocean beds.

On board the Marine Explorer, for example, is a $4m underwater robot Zeus, which deploys an array of brilliant strobe lights and cameras as it carefully picks through debris at depths of up to 2,500m.

The company's first major salvage venture was in 2003 when it discovered the SS Republic, a Civil War side-wheel steamer that sank off the Florida coast in 1865 and some $75m (£37m) worth of coins.

Odyssey has now filed finders-keepers' claims with a court in Tampa, Florida US on the Black Swan and two other shipwrecks.

But Spain is challenging these arguing that the company is withholding crucial information. It is also claiming a right to share the treasure.

Jim Goold, a maritime lawyer in Washington representing the Spanish government, told the BBC News website that the implications of the case are huge in a era when cutting -edge technology is bringing new gravesites to light.

"Here you have a situation in which a US company is apparently systematically working in the Mediterranean, the English Channel and off the coast of Spain, taking cultural heritage without authorisation and then whisking it to the US and steadfastly refusing to reveal to the concerned governments what it has been doing," he said.

Odyssey says the Black Swan recovery was conducted in conformity with Salvage Law and the Law of the Sea Convention, beyond the territorial waters of legal jurisdiction of any country.

It expects to reap a substantial salvage award regardless of who claims the treasure.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7037192.stm

Published: 2007/10/16 11:09:08 GMT

© BBC MMVII

[This makes me want to puke.]

Jim Goold, a maritime lawyer in Washington representing the Spanish government, told the BBC News website that the implications of the case are huge in a era when cutting -edge technology is bringing new gravesites to light.


This makes me want to puke.

Speaking of Goold, check out this link to RPM Nautical and see who is on their board, very interesting indeed!


Pirate diver

http://www.rpmnautical.org/

Here's an interesting article that mentions extortion. One of those individuals involved in the extortion attempt actually posts on this forum from time to time.   

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/10/19/ww.treasurehunters/

Here's an interesting article that mentions extortion. One of those individuals involved in the extortion attempt actually posts on this forum from time to time.  

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/10/19/ww.treasurehunters/

Jeff, I think I banned him from TreasureNet some months ago.

No, he still posts here, but the one you're thinking about is currently being sued by Odyssey for libel.   

OK Jeff, got it straight now! $500,000,000 seems to bring em all out of the bilge! LOL

Tom

[I was told by a prominent Maritime Attorney that if Hillary is elected, Goold would become almost untouchable.]

Jim Goold is part of the law firm of Covington and Burling that represents Hillary Clinton.  I was told by a prominent Maritime Attorney that if Hillary is elected, Goold would become almost untouchable.  IE, anything Covington and Burling wanted done or any case they represented would be a windfall.

So if Hillary is elected, you can bet Jim Goold will be on a rampage and could certainly spell the end for Commercial Salvage in the US!

So we all need to say NO to Hillary!

No Hillary, no.

No no Hillary.

["SideImagingSoft.com - Humminbird Side Imaging Forums"]

I agree Cornelius.  But, the cold hard fact is that this business is highly political!  I think we need to know who is representing who and who cares about the things we care about.

More and more of our rights and freedoms are being taken away by lawmakers and attorneys.  And until we make a stand, it will continue.

 

Can you believe that RPM NAUTICAL is asking for DONATIONS and for $150.00 you can get a DVD, T-Shirt and maybe a Ball Cap.
Everytime I asked for donations or bring up the subject of MONEY I get nailed to the BARN DOOR.
Peg leg

Robert... You'll like this.

http://www.bluemountain.com:80/view...p;m=5946&rr=y&source=bma999

["SideImagingSoft.com - Humminbird Side Imaging Forums"]

Too funny!

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/article3106909.ece

New Scientist Article...

Interview: Riches from the ocean floor
       10 November 2007

       From New Scientist Print Edition.

Is it right for commercial companies to exploit archaeological treasures? Shouldn't they go to museums where the public and researchers could have access to them? John Opperman of salvage company Odyssey Marine Exploration, which recently retrieved half a million coins from an Atlantic shipwreck, tells Jim Giles about the thrills of salvage and why his company has every right to profit from what it finds

Objects from shipwrecks are of international archaeological interest. Shouldn't they be salvaged by museum curators rather than commercial companies such as yours?

We are very professional about what we do. Our attitude is never, "That looks cool, let's pick it up." We always have proper conservation plans in place. You have to do an initial survey to know where things are before touching anything. We do that to the level of best practice archaeology. I wish I could take the people who throw mud at us and sit them down and show them what we're doing.

But then you sell the objects. Shouldn't they go into museums?

They should, and we have just opened a museum attraction in Tampa, Florida. I spent all morning moving a cannon we recovered from one of our sites in the Mediterranean. You would be surprised to see the amount of stuff we do archaeological work on and which we keep in our permanent collection: bottles, ceramics, forks, knives, cannonballs. Academics say all we're doing is finding stuff and selling it. Yes, we do offer a portion of our finds to collectors, but only items that are not of cultural value and that we have numerous duplicates of in our inventory collection.

What about making them available to researchers?

We already do that. We will also shortly make several of our archaeological reports available to the public on our website.

Your company recently found a shipwreck in the Atlantic Ocean which you code-named Black Swan, and from which you have recovered 500,000 silver coins worth up to $500 million. The Spanish government claims it may own the cargo. What are the issues here?

I can't say anything more yet about the coins or the ship's location. All I can say is that it's a colonial vessel found in international waters in the Atlantic. We're trying our best to find out what ship it is. I wasn't on our vessel when we discovered it, but it was still an absolute high. We had stumbled across something that was so wonderful. It was a Eureka moment. I celebrated with a nice bottle of champagne - though it would have been apple juice out there, as there is never alcohol on our ships.

There has also been controversy over another ship you've found, which you think is HMS Sussex and which the Spanish are laying claim to.

HMS Sussex went down off the coast of Spain in 1694. It was carrying coins that the British government planned to use to buy the support of the Duke of Savoy in the war against France. We did two months of work on a site in the Mediterranean off the Spanish coast in December 2005 and January 2006, and we think it's the Sussex but we can't say for sure at this point. The work stopped because we had protesters in boats coming out to our ship. That was a threat to navigation and the safety of the crew. I guess the protesters were Spanish citizens who think they have a legitimate claim to the Sussex. Our work was temporarily halted by the Spanish government in 2006 but an agreement in March 2007 between the governments of Spain, Andalusia and the UK authorised us to continue. We are awaiting the appointment of two Andalusian archaeologists, who will be joining us on board as observers.

Who does own the Sussex?

The British government. The Sussex was clearly on a military mission; it was sovereign to England. That's what I don't understand about the Spanish reaction. The British government retained our services on a contractor basis, and together we arrived at a fair arrangement as compensation for our recovery work and expertise.

What happens when you find the wreck of a commercial ship?

If it's a merchant vessel the question is who insured it and is that company still operating today, because they would have paid out a claim. The SS Republic, which we discovered in 2003, 160 kilometres off the coast of Savannah, Georgia, is a perfect example. We found the insurance company - Atlantic Mutual. They paid out a claim in 1865, so technically they own the site. We bought out their interests and received title to it.

Was there anything special about the Republic?

It went down in 1865. It was a key vessel for providing goods to New Orleans after the American civil war. We recovered approximately 50,000 coins and 14,000 artefacts from the site, which was only part of what she carried. One of the things we found was a bottle of Lee & Perrin's Worcester sauce. You pick that up and you say, "Wow, the last time someone handled this was 140 years ago!" That's the coolest thing in the world. Every ship is a time capsule. Life on a ship stops the moment it goes under the water.

CALLOUT BOX  “We found a bottle of Worcester sauce, last handled 140 years ago”

How do you go about identifying ships to search for?

It's amazing what you can find in archives. Most of the information lies in old records held in the UK, the Netherlands, Spain, France and Italy. Archives contain manifests of ships - a list of what was on board. We're looking for evidence of highly valuable cargo: silver coins, gold coins, diamonds, jewels, but if a site is archaeologically or historically rich we don't just throw out what we find because it's not lucrative. We're not only looking for money and treasure.

A lot of information about where ships have sunk is hit and miss. If a ship burned for three days, people got off it and no one saw it sink: that's not good location information. Plus, people often knew the latitude, but east and west was more tricky. We've seen ships that were 100 kilometres from where they should have been. We look at information such as whether lifeboats were picked up, what the prevailing winds would have been for that time of year, how big the vessel was, how many sails it had, and put it all through an algorithm that tells us the spots with the highest probability of finding what we're looking for. That can cut down the search region from 2500 square kilometres to less than 150.

How many wrecks do you have lined up to investigate?

We have a database of 3000 shipwrecks. We discount anything in shallow water: we assume that if people can access a site easily then they've probably picked over it. We find ships every day. But we never see a name on the back. We have to do the forensics to identify the vessel.


Profile
John Opperman has been director of archaeology, research and conservation at Odyssey Marine Exploration in Tampa, Florida, for three years. His training includes degrees in operational management and computer systems and an MBA in finance.

Recover $20,000 in Shipwreck Treasure from the Valpak Envelope
Thursday, November 29, 2007; Posted: 10:02 AM


LARGO, Fla., Nov 29, 2007 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- MEXP | charts | news | PowerRating -- Valpak, Walt Disney Studios Motion Pictures and Odyssey Marine Exploration have teamed up to bring a bounty of fun to consumers this holiday season.

In celebration of the release of National Treasure: Book of Secrets, in theaters December 21, consumers can look inside their Valpak envelope to find a "key" that will unlock free movie tickets or a $20,000 treasure -- courtesy of Odyssey Marine Exploration.

Between now and the end of the year, over 40 million Valpak envelopes will feature a "mystery word" on the outside for consumers to decipher. Consumers are prompted to look inside their blue Valpak envelope or visit www.Valpak.com to find the "answer key" to decipher the word. Consumers can enter to win at www.Valpak.com or by completing the entry form printed inside the envelope.

This marks the 5th time that the Valpak envelope has featured a Disney theatrical release. Previous films include Disney/Pixar's Ratatouille, Disney's Meet the Robinsons, Disney's The Santa Clause 3: The Escape Clause, and Disney's Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest.

UK Foreign Office reasserts Gibraltar’s territorial waters...

The United Kingdom’s position on Gibraltar’s territorial waters was made clear in unequivocal terms to a group of MPs charged with scrutinizing British foreign affairs, it has emerged, reports the Gibraltar Chronicle.

The Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Commons requested information from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office after a ship operated by Odyssey Marine Exploration was detained by Spain 3.5 miles off Europa Point last July.

The response from the FCO was published this week in the committee’s annual report on overseas territories and the language is uncharacteristically blunt.

“We categorically reject the Spanish view, and we do not allow Spain’s assertion that Gibraltar has no territorial waters to go unchallenged,” wrote Richard Cooke, head of the Parliamentary Relations Team at the FCO, in his response to the MPs.

He also made clear, however, that Spain likewise rejects the British view.

The British Government claims three nautical miles of territorial waters around Gibraltar and believes that under international law, the nine miles beyond that limit are high seas and cannot be claimed by another State.

Spain, however, claims those nine miles as Spanish waters.

It was in this area that Odyssey’s ship was detained.

“Spain maintains that the Treaty of Utrecht of 1713, which granted sovereignty over Gibraltar to Britain, ceded only the town and castle, together with the Rock’s fortifications and its port,” Mr Cooke told MPs.

“Spain therefore disputes our claim that, as a result of later developments in international law…Gibraltar generates its own territorial waters”.

The Foreign Office also stated to the House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee that independence for Gibraltar would only be an option with Spanish consent because of the Treaty of Utrecht.

FOC submitted a memorandum in response to an invitation from the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs to provide information on the exercise by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office of its responsibilities in relation to the Overseas Territories.

“Sovereignty,” it observes,” is also an ongoing issue for Gibraltar, where Spain recognizes British sovereignty over the Rock, but not over the isthmus, waters surrounding the Rock (with the exception of the port), or adjoining the isthmus, or airspace over the entire Territory. The UK supports the right or principle of self-determination, but this must be exercised in accordance with the UN Charter and with other treaty obligations”.

“In Gibraltar’s case this includes the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht, whereby sovereignty over the Rock was ceded to Britain, but the Treaty provides that, were the UK to relinquish sovereignty, the right of first refusal would be given to Spain. Thus independence would only be an option with Spanish consent. The UK has repeatedly made it clear, however, that it will not enter into any arrangements under which the people of Gibraltar would pass under the sovereignty of another state, against their freely and democratically agreed wishes. Furthermore the UK has made it clear it will not enter into a process of sovereignty negotiations with which Gibraltar is not content.”

Media Appearance...

Friday, December 21, 2007
2.50 pm Eastern
Greg Stemm on C-NBC ("Street Signs" with Erin Burnett)

Check your local listings for times and channel information in your area.
* Scheduled appearances may be postponed or cancelled due to events beyond Odyssey's control. This page will be updated as we receive additional information.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15838408/site/14081545/

It seems to me that they were going about this the wrong way, OMEX should have set up some sort of agreement with the Spanish Government. I've dove those waters, they are very vigilant about their "national treasures". Spain has a lot of legal precedent in place to argue that its their ship and that they have the "rights" over it.
Unfortunately they are also a bit xenophobic over claims. I think a good legal team should have drafted a term sheet with the Spanish before they started recovery. It was awfully sneaky and deceptive.

Welcome aboard Shipwreckhunter101.

Tom

Odyssey Marine Exploration Appoints Greg Stemm as Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
Monday January 7, 5:15 pm ET


TAMPA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--The Board of Directors of Odyssey Marine Exploration (Nasdaq:OMEX - News), the world leader in the field of deep-ocean shipwreck exploration, has appointed Odyssey Co-founder Greg Stemm to the positions of Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the Board effective January 3, 2008. The Board also appointed two new directors, Mark D. Gordon and Bradford B. Baker, and selected Dr. David Bederman to serve as Lead Director effective January 1, 2008.
 
Stemm will replace Co-founder John C. Morris as CEO and Chairman who on January 3, 2008 transitioned to a consulting role with Odyssey Marine Exploration.

“John Morris and I have worked together as a team building Odyssey from the ground up into the leading shipwreck exploration company in the world,” commented Greg Stemm, incoming CEO and Chairman. “Throughout the years, John has been an invaluable friend and an integral contributor to the Company’s successful development. Today, Odyssey is in the strongest position, both financially and strategically, that we have ever been in, and I am confident that the momentum will continue uninterrupted. I am very pleased to have the benefit of John’s strategic thinking and input as he continues to serve Odyssey as a consultant.”

“As many of our friends and investors know, I have been dealing with serious health issues for some time now. I have therefore made the decision that it is in Odyssey’s best interest that Greg takes over my offices. I am very proud of what we have built over the years, and with Greg at the helm I feel fully confident about the Company’s future. I am excited to still be able to serve Odyssey by providing ongoing consulting services, and by continuing to maintain a substantial amount of my personal assets in the Company,” said John C. Morris, outgoing CEO and Chairman.

Greg Stemm has served as Executive Vice President and as a member of the Board of Directors since May 1994, and as Co-Chairman since February 2006. Mr. Stemm has extensive experience in managing all aspects of shipwreck exploration operations since entering the field in 1986, including deep-ocean search and robotic archaeological excavation on a number of projects. A pioneer in the emerging field of deep-ocean exploration, he has played a primary role in the development of new technologies and the development of private sector standards for underwater cultural heritage resource management. A panelist at the 1998 Law of the Sea Institute, Stemm was appointed for four consecutive terms to the United States delegation to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) expert meeting to negotiate the "Draft Convention for the Protection of Underwater Cultural Heritage."

Stemm was selected as a Fellow of the Explorers Club, and was the founder and past-president of the Professional Shipwreck Explorers Association (ProSEA). He also served as a founding director (1986-93) and international president (1992-93) of YEO (Young Entrepreneurs Organization) and was also a founding member of the World Entrepreneurs Organization, where he served on the International Board of Directors (1997-98).

Mark D. Gordon, current Odyssey President and Chief Operating Officer, and Brad Baker both joined the Odyssey Board of Directors on January 1, 2008.

Mark D. Gordon joined Odyssey Marine Exploration in January 2005. He was appointed Executive Vice President of Sales and Business Development in January 2007, and President and Chief Operating Officer in October 2007. Prior to joining Odyssey Gordon owned and managed four different entrepreneurial ventures from 1987 to 2003 including Synergy Networks which he sold to the Rockefeller Group in 2003. He subsequently served as President of Rockefeller Group Technology Services Mid Atlantic (RGTSMA), a member of Rockefeller Group International, from September 2003 to December 2004.

Brad Baker re-joined the Odyssey Board of Directors after a successful first tenure from 1997, prior to the Company going public, until his resignation in 2000. A nationally recognized business leader, manager, and strategist who has successfully guided several companies through explosive growth, Mr. Baker currently serves as CEO of Nexus Biometrics, Inc., a leading fingerprint biometric company he founded in 2004. He is also President of Bramar Developers, Inc., a large scale real estate development company which he founded in 1998. Mr. Baker will be serving on the compensation, audit and governance committees.

In addition, Dr. David Bederman, one of the world’s leading admiralty lawyers and a professor of law at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia has been named Lead Director. A board member since January 2006, he will continue to serve on the governance and compensation committees and also assist the Chairman of the Board with board management and leadership.

You seem to be quite familiar with Gregg Stemm and John Morris.   So am I, but back from an earlier time.
I could tell you some stories about them back in their "Seahawk Marine" days, but would probably get sued or worse.

Sounds to me like Spain, as always, take, take, take. International water is what it is.

Explorers will share details of shipwreck sites with Spain
Posted on Thu, Jan. 10

By ANTHONY McCARTNEY
Associated Press Writer

TAMPA, Fla. -- The Spanish government will receive detailed information about three shipwreck sites where a Florida company found an estimated $500 million of colonial-era coins and artifacts last year, but those facts will not be made public, a federal judge ruled Thursday.

Odyssey Marine Exploration will share the exact location of the shipwrecks and items found onboard, U.S. Magistrate Judge Mark Pizzo said.

The Tampa-based company flew 17 tons of silver coins and other artifacts to the U.S. in May. It refused to disclose where in the Atlantic Ocean it found the wrecks, concerned that other firms may plunder or destroy the sites.

"These are treasures that we do not want to see true pirates take away," said Allen von Spiegelfeld, an attorney representing Odyssey.

Spain has contended in federal court that it is entitled to the treasure if it is one of its sunken ships, or if the artifacts were removed from the country's territorial waters.

The two sides have been at odds for months over the discoveries, with Spain detaining some of the firm's ships and demanding that Odyssey deliver more information about their finds. Odyssey's attorneys refused without a confidentiality agreement, which Pizzo approved Thursday.

Within two weeks, Odyssey will turn over the information. Spanish representatives will also be allowed to view the treasure.

Pizzo refused to require Spain to keep a list of who has access to the information Odyssey provides about the wrecks.

The agreement is "best for everybody," Odyssey co-founder Greg Stemm said after the hearing. He acknowledged it has been hard for Spanish officials to determine how much of an interest they have in the treasure without knowing what it is or where it came from.

"Now we can talk about the facts," Stemm said.

Odyssey officials have dubbed the recovery project "Black Swan" and have declined to discuss details of the coins or any other artifacts. The publicly traded company said the secrecy is needed to preserve trade secrets and squelch speculation about the actual value of the booty that could affect its stock price.

James Goold, a Washington attorney who is representing Spain, acknowledged that the government may decide it has no claim to the shipwrecks after viewing the information.

But he argued Thursday that Spanish officials needed precise information so that government entities - such as the navy - could protect the site if necessary.

Pizzo wondered aloud how much the coordinates would help Spain in determining whether it had rights to the ship. "There wasn't GPS in 1492," Pizzo quipped.

The shipwreck is not that old. Odyssey representatives said in court that the main wreckage is an 18th century vessel. Another of the shipwrecks that was found is apparently an Italian ship, according to comments made in court Thursday.

Goold said Spain is not interested in examining the shipwrecks firsthand. Odyssey will provide videos and photos taken from the sites as part of Pizzo's order.

The two sides are scheduled to return to court in March to discuss whether the case will move forward. Any future disputes about whether information should be released will be decided by Pizzo, but those discussions will occur behind closed doors.

Court Grants Odyssey's Motion for Protective Order in Pending Admiralty Cases
Friday January 11, 1:14 pm ET


TAMPA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Odyssey Marine Exploration (Nasdaq:OMEX - News), the world’s leader in the field of deep-ocean shipwreck exploration announced today that its Motion for a Protective Order which will govern discovery and evidence exchanged with Spain in the case of the three pending Admiralty Arrests was granted. U.S. Magistrate Judge Mark Pizzo of the U.S. District Court’s Tampa Division, which has jurisdiction over the cases, agreed to enter the Protective Order as presented by Odyssey with some clarifications requested by Spain. He had previously indicated that Spain would have to agree to a Protective Order before site information was released to them.
 
At a pretrial conference on Thursday, the Court underscored the importance of protecting the site and avoiding any release of confidential information. In the spirit of cooperation in protecting the site, Odyssey volunteered to provide to Spain the precise locations of the sites rather than a general area, as originally requested by Spain.

Within 14 days of the issuance of the Protective Order, in addition to the locations, Odyssey will provide Spain information about all three sites including photomosaics of the sites and information about artifacts recovered to date. Odyssey also agreed to provide Spain’s experts access to the artifacts recovered from the sites.

The Company had offered this information to Spain since the beginning of the legal process, but insisted that a Confidentiality Agreement or a Protective Order was in place that would serve to protect information which might endanger the site if leaked or disclosed.

“We are glad to finally get to the stage in this process where we can furnish information to Spain. As reflected in our pleadings, we have always intended to do so, but we needed to have the Protective Order in place to assure confidentiality. We are pleased that the Court saw the importance of such an order,” said Melinda MacConnel, Odyssey’s General Counsel. “This should lay to rest much of the false and misleading information put out in the Spanish media which some Spanish authorities have apparently been relying upon.”

Magistrate Pizzo indicated at the hearing that further operations at the sites by Odyssey were authorized and that any interference by Spain may result in sanctions under the Order. The Court also emphasized that in the event of a breach of confidentiality or violation of the Protective Order, the Court could grant whatever remedy it may deem appropriate, including dismissal of Spain's claim.

Spain had filed claims for all three pending Admiralty cases following Odyssey’s May 2007 announcement of the archaeological recovery of over 500,000 silver and gold coins from a Colonial era site code-named “Black Swan” outside the territorial waters or jurisdiction of any sovereign nation.

[No other Odyssey employees or contractors are under suspicion. "Our investigation is essentially concluded," Teresa Verges, an assistant director of the SEC's southeast region in Miami, said in an interview.]

Illegal insider trading of Odyssey is alleged
A contractor settles the matter with the SEC.
By SCOTT BARANCIK, Times Staff Writer
Published January 18, 2008

A senior Odyssey Marine Exploration contractor credited with spotting the priceless "Black Swan" shipwreck last year engaged in illegal insider trading of the Tampa company's stock, federal regulators said Thursday.

Fort Lauderdale resident Ernie Tapanes, 39, allegedly began acquiring Odyssey stock via an E-Trade brokerage account last April, shortly after he discovered an anomaly on the ocean floor near Gibraltar.

By the time company executives publicly unveiled Odyssey's find in May - along with its haul of more than 500,000 silver and gold coins - Tapanes had secretly purchased 42,000 shares at a cost of roughly $150,000. He subsequently sold the shares for a $107,000 profit as Odyssey's stock price skyrocketed.

Tapanes, a Canadian citizen and native of Cuba who has worked closely with Odyssey since 2002, had signed a confidentiality and no-trading agreement the same day he began trading its stock. Under a consent deal with the Securities and Exchange Commission, he has agreed to relinquish his profit and pay an additional $107,000 penalty while neither admitting nor denying guilt.

No other Odyssey employees or contractors are under suspicion. "Our investigation is essentially concluded," Teresa Verges, an assistant director of the SEC's southeast region in Miami, said in an interview.

Odyssey executives distanced themselves from Tapanes on Thursday. In a written statement, the treasure-hunting company identified him as "one of many independent consultants" and "not a direct employee." But published accounts show that the quiet, cigar-smoking Tapanes has been an integral part of the company's success.

A book advertised on Odyssey's Web site, Lost Gold of the Republic, said Tapanes, an engineer, was in charge of Odyssey's first lucrative discovery, the wreck of the Civil War-era SS Republic, in 2003. Tapanes is credited with deciding to revisit the wreck site after a crew member dismissed it as "just a sailboat." He even was responsible for choosing Odyssey's 113-foot-long search vessel, having bought and then given it to the company in exchange for a chunk of stock. Odyssey co-founder Greg Stemm called him "one of the best hires the company ever made."

Last year, as Odyssey searched for the ship code-named "Black Swan," Tapanes was chief surveyor and the person who first spotted the wreckage. Company officials did not respond to an e-mail late Thursday as to Tapanes' current status with Odyssey.

Federal prosecutors could follow with criminal charges. But Peter Henning, a professor at the Wayne State University Law School in Detroit and former SEC enforcement official, said it is unlikely that Tapanes will be charged; the profit was relatively small, Tapanes has no apparent ties to the securities industry, and he cooperated. "You just can't do every case," Henning said.

Just watched the news, turns out there was a canadan connection to the scandle. a canadan person was on the ship , he had $100,000 turn up in his bank account and the feds are invistigating.  I am going to assume this was the guy who knew where the treasure was droped by the looters. in 2004 after it was stolen from canada.
hmmm

Just watched the news, turns out there was a canadan connection to the scandle. a canadan person was on the ship , he had $100,000 turn up in his bank account and the feds are invistigating.  I am going to assume this was the guy who knew where the treasure was droped by the looters. in 2004 after it was stolen from canada.
hmmm

It was the same person, he is a Canadian Citizen, and has a home in Florida as well.

go oddysey,

seems like someone is always trying to defraud salvors out of their hard won treasure.  if it is in international waters, does spain have to pay oddysey for lost time and haul out costs for sitting so long ?


quite frankly if spain was so interested in its historical culture, why dont they equip vessels and get cracking ?   I guess it is jut easier to steal it from somebody else.  arriba tuyo espana.

Treasure Hunters in Dispute With Spain
January 24th, 2008 @ 12:45pm
By MITCH STACY
Associated Press Writer

TAMPA, Fla. (AP) - The playground legal principle "Finders keepers, losers weepers" is being put to the test in an international dispute over what could be the richest sunken treasure ever found: 17 tons of silver coins brought up from a centuries-old shipwreck.

A Florida treasure-hunting company, Odyssey Marine Exploration, found the wreck at the bottom of the Atlantic and argues that the age-old law of the high seas entitles the finders to most or all of the booty, said to be worth around $500 million.

But the government of Spain suspects the ship was Spanish and says it has never expressly abandoned any of its vessels lost at sea. The kingdom has made it clear that if the treasure does have some connection to Spain, it wants every last coin returned.

The case is being closely watched, because there could be more disputes like it, now that sonar, remote-control submersible robots and deep-sea video are enabling treasure hunters like Odyssey to find ships that went to the bottom centuries ago and were written off as unrecoverable because no one could even imagine finding anything so far beneath the waves.

"The question is, just because you're the first one out there to get it, should you get to keep it _ especially if it belongs to someone else?" said James Delgado, director of the Institute of Nautical Archaeology at Texas A&M University and a critic of commercial treasure hunters.

For now, the spoils _ some 500,000 coins, enough to fill 552 plastic buckets _ are in Odyssey's possession, tucked away in a warehouse somewhere in Tampa.

Odyssey created a worldwide sensation with the announcement of the find in May but has so far declined to identify the wreck, its location (except to say it was found in international waters) or even what kind of coins were recovered, for fear of plunderers. Instead, the shipwreck was given a code name: Black Swan.

Soon after the discovery was announced, Spain's Washington-based attorney, James Goold, went to federal court in Tampa and slapped claims on three Atlantic wreck sites to which Odyssey had been granted exclusive salvage rights under maritime law.

Spain also temporarily seized the company's ships last summer, and the Spanish media have portrayed the Americans as buccaneers plundering the nation's cultural heritage.

On June 6, El Pais, Spain's biggest newspaper, ran an editorial headlined "Pirates of the 21st Century."

"Almost as if it were back to the times of corsairs and freebooters, the new pirates of this century continue to besiege our galleons despite the fact they have been lying at the bottom of the seas for centuries immersed in an eternal sleep," it said. "How is Spain to defend itself against such a violation of its archaeological and historic patrimony?"

The ship is widely believed to be the Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes, a Spanish galleon sunk by a British warship off Portugal in October 1804. That theory is supported by an export document in the court file indicating that Odyssey raised the coins from a site 180 nautical miles west of the Strait of Gibraltar.

Earlier this month, a federal magistrate ruled that Odyssey must hand over details of the Black Swan wreck, but that Goold must keep the information confidential. Another hearing is scheduled for March.

Odyssey chief executive Greg Stemm said that even if Spain or some other party can prove a claim to the cargo, maritime law dictates that Odyssey be awarded a majority of the haul.

Goold said that won't happen unless Odyssey can prove that Spain expressly abandoned the shipwreck, which he says is not the case. Goold pointed to a previous case he argued in which treasure hunters who salvaged two Spanish ships off the coast of Virginia were forced by a federal appeals court in 2000 to relinquish rights to the 100 coins and other salvaged artifacts. The Spanish government eventually agreed to have the items displayed at a Virginia museum.

"The established principles regarding sunken ships in which the kingdom of Spain has an interest are that the treasure hunter has no right to salvage them, anything that is recovered has to be returned to Spanish custody and that there is no compensation," Goold said.

The Black Swan discovery was timely for Odyssey, whose first big strike was the discovery in 2003 of a Civil War-era steamer off the Georgia coast that yielded 51,000 gold coins and other artifacts valued at around $70 million. Odyssey reported making around $38 million from the haul so far.

But Odyssey, the only publicly traded company of its kind, has posted losses over the past three years as it used its expensive high-tech equipment to scour the high seas for the next mother lode.

The company signed a promotional agreement with Disney last year and has attracted millions in investment from some of the country's biggest financial institutions.

"We have said all along that the legal issues with shipwrecks are complicated and it may take awhile to work them out," Stemm said.

I find this whole situation with Spain so amusing.

Screw them.    How well did they behave in Peru (Pizarro),  Mexico (Cortez), North America (Coronado, DeSoto, de Leon)?  Not only did they take and take -- they pillaged and burned before leaving.

Odyssey Marine Exploration Enters Motion in North Carolina Shipwreck Case
Thursday February 21, 4:15 pm ET


TAMPA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (Nasdaq:OMEX - News) and BDJ Discovery Group, LLC have filed a “Joint Motion for Substitution of Plaintiff” in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of North Carolina Admiralty case number 4:05-CV-122-D3.
 
This joint motion substitutes Odyssey Marine Exploration for BDJ Discovery Group LLC as plaintiff in the In Rem Admiralty case against the Unidentified Shipwreck Vessel, its apparel, tackle, appurtenances and cargo located in the waters of the Atlantic Ocean approximately 12 miles off the coast of North Carolina. In a separate agreement, BDJ Discovery Group has assigned all of its rights to the artifacts and any wreck from which they originate to Odyssey Marine Exploration.

Among other objects, a small number of gold and silver artifacts have been recovered from the site, code-named “Firefly”, but the identity of the shipwreck from which the artifacts originated has not yet been confirmed. In order to protect the site, no additional information is being released at this time about the artifacts recovered or operations at the site to date.

Odyssey has been conducting survey and inspection operations on the arrested site since August 2007 and is currently planning the next stages of survey and archaeological investigation of the site.

I am really surprised at James Delgado's reply from the INA. If he really believes that cultural heritage belongs to the country of origin then he would return the 20,000 artifacts from the French vessel of La Salle that they excavated two years ago! Including the SKELETAL REMAINS OF CREW MEMBERS! The Institute of Nautical Archaeology at Texas A&M is nothing but grave robbers!

El Pais Article...

http://translate.google.com/transla...pair=es%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Scubasalvor, I see the point you are trying to make. In fact, I looked into the matter of the La Salle shipwreck project myself. It seems an agreement was reached in which France was named the rightful owners of the artifacts, but Texas can keep them on "permanent loan."

EU AVOIDS ODYSSEY ROW
by Brian Reyes

The European Commission and the EU Council of Ministers have both refused to comment directly on the controversy surrounding Odyssey Marine Exploration and the sunken treasure it recovered last year.

The haul, considered the most valuable shipwreck treasure ever raised from the seabed, pitched the Florida-based company into a head-on clash with the Spanish authorities that has yet to be resolved.

Last November a Spanish MEP formally asked both EU institutions for their views on the case.

Among other things, he wanted to know what mechanisms Europe had in order to prevent "archaeological pillaging of this kind".

"Furthermore, given that the treasure was removed from Europe without any problem at all from British territory [Gibraltar], does the Commission not believe that there needs to be greater cooperation between Member States in order to avoid similar situations arising in the future?" the MEP asked.

"Does the EU possess, or is it going to establish, some sort of customs mechanism for the specific purpose of controlling activities of this kind?"

Both the EC and the Council sidestepped the issue, not least because numerous questions arising from the case are still being resolved in a Florida court, and a La Linea judge continues to investigate whether Odyssey breached any Spanish heritage laws, something the company denies.

"It is not up to the Commission to comment on the ongoing litigation related to the cultural treasures found by Odyssey Marine Exploration," said Justice Commissioner Franco Frattini in a written response.

Mr Frattini went on to list the various legal instruments available at EU and international level to protect underwater and cultural heritage, including a convention that sets uniform rules and conditions for "restitution claims on stolen cultural objects and return claims on illicitly exported goods."

In a separate answer the EU Council also ducked the MEP's questions and said "…there are no Council conclusions, nor is there a Council position, on this subject."

It added that Cesar Antonio Molina, Spanish Culture Minister, had provided information concerning the protection of European underwater cultural heritage during a meeting last November.

Much of that presentation contained tough criticism of Odyssey and its activities.

The intervention prompted Odyssey to contact the EU to rebut what it described as the minister's "unjustified accusations".

"We replied with an open invitation for the ministers and staff to visit Odyssey at our facilities in Tampa, or on board our vessels, to observe first hand the meticulously high standards of operations in carrying out the world's most advanced archaeological excavations," said Ali Nesser, Odyssey's director for international development.

Archaeology Channel Video...

A tour of the exhibit and conservation lab.

http://www.archaeologychannel.org

Thanks kenb for the heads up.

Ruling Allows Odyssey Shipwreck Cases to Move Forward
Thursday March 6, 5:50 pm ET 
U.S. Federal Judge Holds That Odyssey's Pleadings Meet Rules of Procedure In Three Shipwreck Cases


TAMPA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (Nasdaq:OMEX - News) today announced that on March 6, 2008, Judge Steven D. Merryday issued an Order relating to Spain's Motions to Dismiss the Amended Complaints that were filed by Odyssey in the arrest of three wreck sites.

Odyssey is pleased with the ruling of the judge in the cases of the three arrested sites which specifically states that “the allegations in the complaint and the disclosure in connection with discovery satisfy the requirements of applicable procedural rules and pleading principles.”

“This makes it clear that the first phase of these cases is complete and we can get beyond Spain’s invalid arguments that Odyssey has not pled its case adequately. This means we can move forward to determine what basis, if any, Spain has for the claims it has made to these wreck sites,” said Greg Stemm, Odyssey’s Chief Executive Officer.

The Court’s Order makes it clear that if Odyssey promptly complies with the disclosure rulings of the Magistrate Judge in a satisfactory manner, the Company is not required to disclose any hypotheses as to the identities of the vessels.

“Odyssey has always complied with the Court’s orders requiring prompt disclosure of all discovery, and will continue to do so. We certainly hope that Spain will now follow suit,” stated Melinda J. MacConnel, Odyssey’s General Counsel.

The Court’s denial of certain Counts of the complaints relates only to jurisdiction. The Judge did not determine that Odyssey has no right to damages against Spain as a result of Spain’s illegal actions against Odyssey and its vessels, only that he does not have the authority to award such damages. The most significant aspect of the ruling is the Court’s declaration that Odyssey’s pleadings and its disclosures have met all requirements of the federal rules of civil procedure. In every facet of its operations, whether they are archaeological or legal, Odyssey follows all applicable rules and procedures and conducts its business with the highest level of integrity.

Federal Judge Advances Odyssey's Shipwreck Cases
Wednesday March 12, 6:43 pm ET 
Order Protects Odyssey's Site Information and Requires Prompt Justification of Spain's Claims Based on Evidence


TAMPA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (Nasdaq:OMEX - News) today announced that United States Magistrate Judge, Mark Pizzo, has issued orders in three pending Admiralty cases that the Company believes will help to expeditiously move these cases forward. Two of the orders were in response to Spain’s Motions to Compel Compliance and to Declare Certain Materials as Not Confidential.
 
In these orders, the Judge ruled that the artifact summaries provided to Spain with photographs are not confidential, but that in the interest of protecting the site, other information including the preliminary site assessments, the site plans, the photographs of the sea bed and the photomosaics should remain confidential at this time.

The Court also clarified its January 10, 2008 order and indicated that Odyssey need not provide Spain with open access to Odyssey’s research files at this stage of the litigation and that the information Odyssey has provided to Spain thus far is sufficient.

“We are extremely pleased with Magistrate Pizzo’s recent order which will move the cases forward and help protect the sites by keeping site information confidential at this time,” stated Melinda MacConnel, Odyssey General Counsel. “We believe that we have always acted in accordance with the Court’s directives and we are glad that the Court has issued confirmation that we have complied with the Court’s Disclosure order.”

The Judge also issued interrogatories regarding possible theories as to the identity of any vessels which may be related to the sites. After receiving Odyssey’s responses, Spain has 10 days to describe evidence that supports its claim to the vessel or artifacts.

Odyssey has previously avoided discussing speculative theories regarding the identity of the shipwreck sites because the analysis of the data available to the company did not, in the opinion of Odyssey's management and lawyers, rise to the level of certainty sufficient to meet the requirements of public disclosure pursuant to securities regulations. It is also clear that speculating about the identity of the sites at this stage would be inappropriate pursuant to nautical archaeological best-practices in the evaluation of complex underwater sites.

“We are pleased to provide Spain with possible theories about the possible identity of the sites under the protection of this Court order although, as we have stated on previous occasions, there is insufficient evidence at this time to confirm the identity of the sites,” said Greg Stemm, Odyssey Chairman and CEO. “We look forward to resolving whether Spain believes it has a claim - and a justification for that claim - on any of the sites within 10 days of providing them with this information."

The third order issued by Magistrate Pizzo today requires Spain to provide a basis for a claim, if any, against the shipwreck believed to be SS Ancona within 30 days.

Regarding Spain's various positions on properties they claim right to - it seems that they want everything they have ever owned; they just press harder when they think they have a chance of winning, or hurting their opponent so badly that it will be a Pyrrhic victory at best, and an example for others.

They are perfectly capable of holding equal, diametrically opposing positions simultaneously: La Galga is theirs (sovereign title principle), despite the fact that it is in Virginia, while the HMS Sussex is theirs because it is near their waters, despite the sovereign title owned by the UK.  They have fought and bullied for years, trying to force the return of Gibraltar, while maintaining full control over territories that Morocco has better title to than they do to Gib (Ceuta and Melilla).  By the arguments they put forward for grabbing Gibraltar, they could just as easily justify taking over Portugal!

Several of the motions Spain has put forward in court seem absolutely extraneous to their efforts - until one realizes that public revelation of the map grids of the find would force OM to expend much effort and money just to defend the location from competition.  Spain fights dirty; it seems that their lawyer (does he have to register as an Agent for a Foreign Power?) is more than willing to play dirty pool for them. 

I wonder if those who attempted recovery of La Galga could cite the Spanish arguments in these cases as Spanish official positions... hmmm...


Ziad

Spain's Claim To One Of Odyssey's Shipwreck Cases Dismissed
Thursday April 3, 4:01 pm ET


TAMPA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (Nasdaq:OMEX - News), the world leader in the field of deep-ocean shipwreck exploration, announced today that Spain’s claim in Admiralty case number 8:07-CV-00616 has been dismissed pursuant to a motion filed on behalf of the Government of Spain. The shipwreck in this case is believed to be a 20th century passenger liner reported to be carrying valuable cargo.
 
Following Odyssey’s May 2007 announcement of the recovery of 17 tons of silver and gold coins from the “Black Swan” site, Spain filed claims with the U.S. District Court's Tampa Division in three of the Company’s pending admiralty arrests. Odyssey made it clear that the Company was unaware of evidence suggesting any potential Spanish interest in the site, yet Spain pursued its claim without providing any information as to the basis for that claim.

“We are very pleased that Spain has acknowledged that its claim to this particular shipwreck is unfounded, and we are now looking forward to moving ahead in resolving all issues expeditiously with the other two cases,” said Greg Stemm, Odyssey’s Chief Executive Officer.

"Technically, Spain's dismissal of its claim in this case has no bearing on the other two arrests, but this shows that just because Spain files a claim against a particular wreck site does not mean it has a valid basis, or as in this case, any evidence whatsoever to support that claim," commented Melinda MacConnel, General Counsel for Odyssey.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/04/07/080407fa_fact_colapinto

Court Seeks Public Disclosure of Odyssey's Hypotheses Regarding Shipwreck Cases
Thursday April 17, 5:15 pm ET


TAMPA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (Nasdaq:OMEX - News), the world leader in the field of deep-ocean shipwreck exploration, announced that today Magistrate Judge Mark A. Pizzo of the United States District Court for the Middle District of Florida denied Odyssey’s Motion for Protective Order in which Odyssey requested that the interrogatory responses filed under seal on April 14, 2008, remain confidential. In those interrogatories, Odyssey was asked to put forth its working hypothesis as to the identity of any vessels that may be related to the two sites that are the subjects of two arrests Odyssey has pending before the Court. Odyssey had been reluctant to disclose its working hypotheses because the company believes that there is insufficient evidence in either case to conclusively confirm the identity of any vessel that may be associated with the sites.
 
Odyssey had hoped to more fully explain its reasons for its confidentiality request but Odyssey’s motion to hold a hearing in camera rather than in open court was denied. As a result, with the Court’s order, and with Magistrate Pizzo’s specific caution about his expectations for justification for Protective Orders, the public will now be aware of speculation about possible identities of the sites in question.

A vessel named as possibly being related to the site which is the subject of case number 8:07-CV-00614-SDM-MAP is the Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes y las Animas (the “Mercedes”), a Spanish vessel that had been assigned to transport mail, private passengers and consignments of merchant goods and other cargoes at the time of its sinking in 1804. In its response to the Court’s interrogatory, Odyssey also indicated that it had information under review which may be inconsistent with the hypothesis that the wreck site is that of the Mercedes.

Odyssey named the Merchant Royall, a British merchant vessel lost in 1641, as a possible identity of the vessel related to case number 8:06-CV-01685-SDM-MAP. Odyssey again indicated that it had information under review in that case which could be inconsistent with that hypothesis.

“We are all on new ground here and managing the disclosure obligations of a public company against the release of information in an Admiralty case like this is a complicated balance,” commented Melinda MacConnel, Odyssey’s General Counsel. “Judge Pizzo had previously invited us to submit a proposed protective order, which we did. In response, he has now made it abundantly clear how he wants us to proceed with public disclosures, and we will obviously fully comply.”

“As our Motion for Protective Order explained, we had hoped to maintain the confidentiality of information we consider to be speculative,” said Greg Stemm, Odyssey’s Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer. “Experience has shown us how difficult it is to prevent unwarranted speculation about the identity and potential value of our finds once the possible identity of a site is made public, but we also respect the need to make sufficient information public to satisfy the requirement to alert potential claimants.”

In case anyone is interested  here's a blog about the battle between Odyssey and Doc/HHI.

http://hh-watch.blogspot.com/

["SideImagingSoft.com - Humminbird Side Imaging Forums"]

That is some funny stuff!   

I wish I actually cared what Doc, and others over there had to say, but I will not waste my time! 

Little bit more about Odyssey, Claudio Bonifacio(My friend in mine) and 'Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes'(odyssey's nightmare)

http://www.ideal.es/granada/2008050...iedad/hundidos-olvido-20080503.html

Amona

Reuters Article...

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN0650456920080506

more,more,more

 According with this article Spain(Cadiz's government) will win the trial against Odyssey due there is enough historical and legal reasons. After analyze the coins, Spain can prove in court that the $500M came from the Spanish vessels "fragata Nuestra Señora de la Mercedes".

Cádiz.-(Ampl.) El Gobierno confirma que 'ganará' el litigio contra Odyssey porque el pecio capturado es un barco español


El director general de Bellas Artes y Bienes Culturales, José Jiménez, aseguró hoy que el Gobierno español va a 'ganar' el litigio contra la empresa norteamericana Odyssey Marine Explorer porque existen 'razones legales e históricas suficientes'. Tras el análisis de las monedas y otros artefactos capturados por Odyssey en 'aguas internacionales', el Ministerio Cultura puso hoy sobre el 'tapete' que el barco capturado por Odyssey es la fragata Nuestra Señora de la Mercedes, un barco de guerra español, que se hundió en 1808 durante la Batalla del Cabo de Santa Maria al sur de Portugal y al oeste de Cádiz.

Also Mr. James Goold said "Spain doesn't lose rights over any war vessels because it was sank in international waters"

Asimismo, aseguró que el argumento de que el pecio capturado por Odyssey en 'aguas internacionales' es totalmente 'irrelevante' porque 'no perdemos la propiedad por estar en aguas internacionales si hablamos de un buque de guerra'. 'Los 14.000 kilos de monedas no se trasportan en un navío comercial', añadió.

more to read here:http://actualidad.terra.es:80/cultura/articulo/cadiz-ampl_gobierno_odyssey_2458830.htm

[Odyssey Marine Exploration Responds To Recent Media Reports Following the Spanish Government's ''Black Swan'' Press Conference]

Odyssey Marine Exploration Responds To Recent Media Reports Following the Spanish Government's ''Black Swan'' Press Conference
Thursday May 8, 9:32 pm ET


TAMPA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Following a significant amount of international media coverage based on a press conference held by the Spanish Ministry of Culture in Madrid on May 8, 2008, Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (NasdaqCM: OMEX) wishes to publicly address the most frequently asked questions by media and the public.
 
To clarify, Odyssey was not in attendance at the press conference, which was presided over by representatives of the Spanish government as well as Spain’s legal counsel. Our statements are therefore based on media reports of the actual event and Spain’s Responses to the Court’s Interrogatories that Spain filed in U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Florida on May 8, 2008.

What is Odyssey’s point of view regarding Spain’s definitive statement that the site code-named “Black Swan” is that of the “Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes y las Animas”?

Although Odyssey has identified the Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes y las Animas (the “Mercedes”) as a working hypothesis as to a vessel that could be related to the “Black Swan” site, the Company does not believe there is sufficient evidence to conclusively prove that the site is indeed related to the Mercedes or any other ship, and as we have previously mentioned, there is no hull of a shipwreck at this site. What we have found to date is apparently a cargo from a shipwreck as opposed to an actual vessel. It is surprising to us that the Spanish representatives who have viewed the photomosaics are not aware of this if they have any experience with shipwreck sites.

It is also surprising that the Kingdom of Spain has asserted conclusively (“without a doubt”) that the “Black Swan” treasure is from the Mercedes after viewing site photomosaics and video that show no hull, ballast pile, keel or vessel, and only a statistically insignificant sample of the coins from the site. We believe that the scientific process, archaeological integrity, and historical accuracy are not served by jumping to conclusions and confirming the identity without conclusive proof.

Does Odyssey have a claim to the treasure if the “Black Swan” is indeed the “Mercedes”?

If the “Black Swan” coins are determined to be from the Mercedes, based on our extensive archival historical research, archaeological assessments and thorough legal analysis the Company is confident in its legal position. Of course, it is up to the U.S. District Court to determine the final disposition of the “Black Swan” treasure.

Can you address Spain’s accusations of Odyssey “disturbing war graves”?

Odyssey deeply respects the maritime heritage of all nations and the final resting place of any sailors or passengers that may have perished in a shipwreck. However, in the case of the “Black Swan”, no vessel and no human remains have been located, a fact that the Spanish experts are well aware of. If indeed it is confirmed that this site is related to the Mercedes, the ship was lost over 200 years ago and if the hull is ever actually located, it is unlikely that any human remains will be found at the site. Nevertheless, Odyssey agrees that all sites should be treated with respect and proper archaeological protocols, which have been carefully observed in the case of the “Black Swan” site.

Is Odyssey willing to settle the ”Black Swan” case with Spain?

Odyssey has previously proposed to the Spanish Government on numerous occasions that Spanish archaeologists be allowed to participate in any expeditions that seek to explore shipwrecks which may be of Spanish historical interest.

As with our previous projects, including the SS Republic and HMS Sussex, Odyssey is diligent about notifying potential claimants when the ship's identity is determined. When, and if, Spain is determined to have a claim or cultural interest in any shipwreck, Odyssey would propose to enter a relationship just as it has on previous projects.

There have been some individuals that have been working hard to vilify Odyssey rather than acknowledging our company's repeated attempts to cooperate with Spain in any finds that may involve Spanish heritage. Odyssey has been and continues to be a steward of history. We bring stories of great cultural and historical significance to life, and we have always conducted our operations with archaeological integrity and technology that surpasses the capacities of many academic and governmental institutions.

Odyssey will continue to offer cooperation with Spain and any other government or potential owners of shipwrecks or cargo - and we hope that those who are concerned about underwater cultural heritage will see past the false representations about us by some who have a vested interest in seeing that Spain and Odyssey do not work together.

Here is the local news link for Fox 13 Tampa Bay, along with a video link to the story.

The photo credit is to www.treasurelore.com 

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/myfox/...mp;layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1

 

I love how Spain comes out of the woodworks laying their claim on their ill-gotten goods.  The way I look at it, Odyssey Marine has a couple viable options.  The first is to continue fighting Spain's claim.  If things do not go in their favor, the 2nd option is to do a 2-3 mile or more dumping of the coins around the general area of the wreck location simulating the debris field of a wreck.  Let Spain then spend their own dime to recover the loot from the "grave" of their sailors as they put it.  If Spain can claim warships from an entirely different government 200 years previously, I do not see how Peru or even Ecuador cannot claim their fair share of the loot being the gold originated there and was minted in Lima.  I love how greed drives the governments, including our own, to lay claim to the spoils of other peoples' hard work. 

Spanish Press...

http://translate.google.com/transla...es&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Good Morning Jeff:

 An adequate, but not too precise, interpretation.by them. 

Frankly, to me, the most telling thing against Odyssey "IS" the very lack of a ship.  This would  definitely indicate  an explosion of catastrophic dimensions which is precisely what  is claimed in the history records.  Anything less, and there would be substantial  remains of parts of a partially  intact  hull.

s for an unknown ship just dumping it over the side, that is just too weak a defense.

I personally am against Spain,  but legally she shows a stronger case so far on it's Identity, than Odyssey.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Spanish Press...

http://translate.google.com/transla...es&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

That's benefit to know two language English-Spanish 

Amona... Read this post, and then tell me the Spanish deserve one single coin.

Atrocities of the Spanish Conquistadors in the West Indies c. 1513


This account is from Bartolome de Las Casas.  He was a missionary and conquistador.  He took part in the conquest of Cuba.  These accounts happened after this and one has to believe he was very troubled by what he witnessed.  There is no doubt about it; the Spanish were cruel in the conquest for gold and land.  Events like these listed below did nothing to help relations between the vastly different cultures.  Instead it was a major reason why the Taino and Arawak peoples became extinct.

The Spaniards with their horses, their spears and lances, began to commit murders and other strange cruelties.  They entered into towns and villages, sparing neither children nor old men and women.  They ripped their bellies and cut them to pieces as if they had been slaughtering lambs in a field.  They made bets with each other over who could thrust a sword into the middle of a man or who could cut off his head with one stroke.  They took little ones by their heels and crushed their heads against the cliffs.  Others they threw into the rivers laughing and mocking them as they tumbled into the water.  They put everyone they met to the edge of the sword.

One time I saw four or five important native nobles roasted and broiled upon makeshift grills.  The cried out pitifully.  This thing troubled our Captain that he could not sleep.  He commanded that they be strangled.  The Sergeant (I know him and his friends from Seville) would not strangle them but put bullets into their mouths instead. 

I have seen all these things and others infinite.  Most tried to flee.  They tried to hide in the mountains.  They tried to flee from these men.  Men who were empty of all pity, behaving like savage beasts. They are nothing more than slaughterers and enemies of mankind.  These evil men had even taught their hounds, fierce dogs, to tear natives to pieces at first sight. 

AND, when, although rare, the Indians put to death some Spaniards upon good right and law of justice; the Spaniards made an agreement that for every one Spaniard killed they had to slay one hundred Indians.

One time the Indians came to meet us and receive us with food and good cheer!  Instead, the devil, which had put himself in the Spaniards, put them all to the edge of the sword in my presence, without any cause whatsoever, more than three thousand souls.  I saw there such great cruelties, that never any man living either have or shall see the like.

In three or four months (myself being present) there died more than six thousand children, which the Spanish had sent into the Gold mines.

Don... I've always felt it was the Mercedes, but Odyssey will be able to show the Court that she was registered as a mail ship and carried passengers. She also carried merchant money, and that is not immune according to UNCLOS. 

Jeff agreed, her only basic defense.  But what if Spain replies with "she was a chartered vessel under the Spanish Crown  and hence a ship of her royal Naval forces at the time"?   

In WW-2 this was often done with different types of Naval vessels and Aircraft.  In The case of Naval  Gunners on sunken liberty ships, it has been claimed that they are also war Graves and so exempt from salvage, sovereign rights still remain with the US Gov't.

Hmmmm

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don... Sovereign immunity only applies to warships that have to fulfill very specific criteria according to the Law of the Sea Convention, and they must be exclusively on a non-commercial service. In addition, virtually all Spanish "Treasure Ships" coming from the New World during the Colonial era (including the Mercedes) were mostly carrying money owned by merchants - not by the King, which would make it pretty obvious that they were not "exclusively on a non-commercial mission." Besides, even salvors of sovereign immune shipwrecks are still able to claim salvage awards.

    Don, not even Liberty Ships are exempt from salvage. The American liberty ship John Berry was sunk off the coast of Oman by a torpedo in 1944. Just recently salvors recovered 3 million silver Saudi ryals from the wreck. Salvage operations are going on right now on other Spanish warships in Ecuador and Florida.

   

Thank you Gentlemen, I learned something new today.    Howeve, I am sure that Spain has a few nasty tricks up her sleeve regarding this classification since she is well aware of this, which I apparently wasn't, and is ready to toss her hat in the ring and go for broke., no holds barred. 

Frankly, I hope she loses.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don... According to Graham Moore's letter to Cornwallis the Mercedes carried 590,000 silver pesos for the merchants, and 221,000 for the king. For arguments sake lets assume this is an accurate account, and that Odyssey recovered exactly 500,000 silver coins. If I were the judge, here's how I would settle this. First, Odyssey gets 100% of the gold coins and jewelry, because they belonged to the merchants and passengers, not the king. There was a shipment of 811,000 silver coins in total, of which 73% belonged to the merchants and 27% belonged to the king. Therefore, Spain could have a claim on 27% of the 500,000 coins recovered, or 135,000 coins. I would then award Odyssey an 80% salvage fee, which would leave Spain with 27,000 coins. I use the 80% figure, because that's what is awarded to the salvors by Florida. This seems like a fair split to me, and in accordance with the Law of the Sea Convention.

P.S. Graham Moore was the commander of the British ships that engaged the four Spanish frigates.

amona... Read this post, and then tell me the Spanish deserve one single coin.

Atrocities of the Spanish Conquistadors in the West Indies c. 1513

Jeff

You're right, according with that statement, the Spaniards don't deserve any coins but you can't use that argument as justification to Odyssey own the $500M. If there is a party that can legitimately claim ownership over those $500M are the Indians(Tainos or Incas) but they won't, so somebody has to do it.

Amona

I think Jeff is spot on in his assessment of the legal position with respect to the Mercedes ..... so why all the nonsense and manoeuvring by Odyssey ?

Mariner

Good Morning Amona:  you posted -->

If there is a party that can legitimately claim ownership over those $500M are the Indians(Tainos or Incas) but they won't, so somebody has to do it.
~~~~~~~~~~
Agreed, besides, unless they go as a group, they will never win, since they  cannot prove that the gold / Silver used in THOSE coins came from their particular lands.  Only as a massive, class action, covering the Americas could they hope to win.

Maybe we can represent them?  hehehe
***************************************************************************************

Jeff, you posted -->

That's benefit to know two language English-Spanish  
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HI , some time I will have to tell you of spending Christmas Eve, 1946 in a Chinese "Happy house" on the docks in Tsingtao,  lowest of the low, teaching the poor, old, wornout gal,  basic written Chinese heheh.  

NO!  being a pure saint, I did not partake of the wares,  sheesh, not even  scuba diver or amona would have, hmm,  however,  I am not sure of either YOU nor Mariner  ?   (sailors you know)

It was through necessity, there was no other place to sleep, too many refugees and the temp was below freezing..

Don Jose de La Mancha       the untarnished Saint

Hi everybody

The issue I'd seen since Odyssey found those coins is the subject of "Spaniard committed atrocities" and tha's it is completely true because I was born in Puerto Rico and I know more than many people here in this forum about that fact, "BUT" nobody here shouldn't use that argument as "excuse" or" "fundament" to justify the Odyssey's action, because many people, during 1700 to 1850 killed Indian in order to remove them from theirs territories and send them to many reservation to establish many state of the union.

Amona

I say it belongs to the people that went out and found it.  nobody stopped spain/or any south american countries from going after it.  in fact they never even tried.  you throw a million dollars out in the trash and somebody finds it you lose.

if spain wants some of its lost treasure back it had better get busy.  do you think john dillinger would get any of the loot he stole back in a court case ?  I don't think so.  if the wreck is in international waters tell spain to get lost.

[Why everytime an American underwater treasure hunter find an Spanish vessel, remove the gold, then Spain come to claim for the gold when Spain never-ever made the intention to salvage for those vessels?]

I say it belongs to the people that went out and found it.  nobody stopped spain/or any south american countries from going after it.  in fact they never even tried.  you throw a million dollars out in the trash and somebody finds it you lose.

if spain wants some of its lost treasure back it had better get busy.  do you think john dillinger would get any of the loot he stole back in a court case ?  I don't think so.  if the wreck is in international waters tell spain to get lost.
Posted on: Yesterday at 08:47:27 AMPosted by: Amona 

The fact is if I left my wallet in your house due I forgot it went I was visiting you,it doesn't mean you will own my wallet, because my wallet is in your property? The same fact with Spain's vessels, but I understand many people here (Jeff K, Wreckdiver1715,etc) when they say:

  Why everytime an American underwater treasure hunter find an Spanish vessel, remove the gold, then Spain come to claim for the gold when Spain never-ever made the intention to salvage for those vessels?

That's question it should be asked by the judge inTampa during Odyssey's trial.

Amona

Amona... The Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) says that a salvor is entitled to a salvage award. That's not quite the same as finding someone's wallet. As long as there's a commercial cargo involved then there is no immunity.

buenas dias Amona:  If I robbed a bank or held up someone, then, while running away at night , dropped the loot on your property, do I have a legal  /  moral right to sue you to get it back if you found it and I had no idea where it had fallen?

The loot, whether from a bank hold up or a country hold up, does not belong to the robber.     This was upheld after WW-2. When the recovered loot from the AXIS powers was returned, where possible, to the countires of orign.


Don Jose de La Mancha

buenas dias Amona:  If I robbed a bank or held up someone

Tayopa!! What kind World are you living? If you robbed anything in this world you don't have any right to claim over what you robbed,..Of course, If somebody that committed a felony basically loss many rights only to defend hiring a lawyer, but that case of the Spaniard during the colonial era " technically" the owned 3/4 of this continent of America between Oregon State to Argentina, chile since 1492 to mid 1850's using the force against people (Tainos, Mayas, Aztecas, Incas) in military disadvantage.

Sadly the ripped them out, they controlled them and finally they set a Spanish government like any military invasion i.g. Iraq invasion in 2003, Hispanic American war in 1898 when American troop "INVADED" Puerto Rico with "NO ANY ACT OF DEMOCRACY" so, like I said before, IF THERE SOMEBODY THAT COULD CLAIM ANY COINS FROM SPAIN THOSE PEOPLE ARE THE TAINOS, AZTECAS, INCAS AND MAYA, NOBODY ELSE.

Amona

Morning Amona  hmm   k, no disagreement between us, so Spain has no actual legal right to them if the Doctrines  / Laws of WW-2 are applied.  In which case they are open for 100 5alvage rights .

Don Jose de La Mancha

Well Tayopa

 I don't know about maritame laws in wreck salvages.

Amona

Amona,

You mention the Aztecs in your list of people who have the right to materials taken by Spain, but the Aztecs had done exactly what Spain did when they invaded and conquered Mexico a few centuries before Cortes arrived, and they treated the indigenous Mexicans far more cruelly than Spain treated them.  The Aztecs carried out human sacrices by the thousands, ripping the heart out of their victims while they were still alive.  Spanish accounts suggest that they sacriced as many as 60,000 people in this way in a single day.

This is why Cortes found it so easy to recruit as allies the Mexican nations that the Aztecs had subjugated and treated so badly. Thus the Aztecs by their cruelty contributed to their own downfall.

Please don't suggest that Montezuma and his people had any moral right to the treasures they accumulated as a result of their oppressive conquest of Mexico, and then castigate Spain for taking it off them.

Mariner




I