Odyssey Marine Article...

You mention the Aztecs in your list of people who have the right to materials taken by Spain, but the Aztecs had done exactly what Spain did when they invaded and conquered Mexico a few centuries before Cortes arrived, and they treated the indigenous Mexicans far more cruelly than Spain treated them.  The Aztecs carried out human sacrices by the thousands, ripping the heart out of their victims while they were still alive.  Spanish accounts suggest that they sacriced as many as 60,000 people in this way in a single day.

This is why Cortes found it so easy to recruit as allies the Mexican nations that the Aztecs had subjugated and treated so badly. Thus the Aztecs by their cruelty contributed to their own downfall.

Please don't suggest that Montezuma and his people had any moral right to the treasures they accumulated as a result of their oppressive conquest of Mexico, and then castigate Spain for taking it off them.

Mariner

You're right "but" the argument is based in the fact that people here in this forum are using that historic fact as " excuse" or" justification" to Spain doesn't claim the $500M over the Odyssey. The Aztec killed thousand and thousand of inocent people for theirs gods. Many of coins found in many spanish shipwreck were mint in Mexico with the Aztec's gold, that's why I said "if there is some parties that can claim for coins mint by Spaniard during colonial era are Aztect, it doesn't matter how many people they killed.

Amona

I've been quietly following this and listen to people go back and forth over who it belongs to. I figured that I would add my two cents.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the burdon of truth falls on the acuser. Therefore Spain Should have to prove that the Odyssey is lying. Now a ship in international waters that is abandoned belongs to the Salvor. But the problem is there is no ship. Wether the ship blew up and pieces floated away, or pieces sank in other locations doesn't really matter. The end result is the same. There is no ship wreck. How can anyone, or any country claim a pile of wealth on the bottom that they weren't even looking for. Hell if it is that easy, I will lay a claim to it as well.

People, while I agree that the evil's thrust upon the indians was horrible, it really dosn't matter. It was a different time and their actions were legal. What matters is here and now. Spain has know for hundreds of years that the gold was missing, and they have done nothing to lay claim or even look for any of it. They are nothing more than the greedy distant cousin that shows up when you win the lottery. We can sit here and argue about the legalities of the whole situation, but in the end it will be the courts that decide. Until they do, I think I might make a small investment in OMEX. Hell if they win this one their stocks should have a nice jump. LOL.

So here's the question -
I have a bunch of money invested in this stock..........
Am i out of luck on this or should I hold my position?
The stock has tanked
your thoughts would be greatly appreciated
Brady

Brady... I'd suggest holding at this time.  The Odyssey Explorer has been working in the English Channel for the past month, and we might hear something in the next few weeks. This is one stock that needs patience. I also think Odyssey will come out with a win in the court battle with Spain.

F O R   A L L  O F   O U R   S A JK E S ,   I  H O P E   S O !! 

We will be establishing a precedent here, not for just maritme thingies..

Don Jose de La Mancxha

You want to hold on to your stock at least one year so you don't have to pay capitol gains taxes.

It's been good to me!

Odyssey Marine Exploration Shipwreck Expeditions to Become World Premiere Series on Discovery Channel
Tuesday May 27, 8:00 am ET 
Emmy(R) Award-Winning JWM Productions to Produce Prime Time 11-Part Series


TAMPA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (NASDAQ:OMEX - News), the world leader in deep ocean shipwreck exploration, has granted Primetime Emmy® Award-winning JWM Productions exclusive access to film Odyssey’s 2008 Atlas Search expeditions to produce a shipwreck exploration television series. Discovery Channel expects to premiere the 11-part High Definition (HD) series to worldwide audiences in 2009. Production is slated to begin immediately.
 
“We have the most experienced team of shipwreck explorers in the world manning our ships, and on a regular basis they make amazing discoveries in the deep ocean - things that have never before been seen by human eyes. We're proud of the exploration and archaeological work our team accomplishes in the challenging offshore environment, and for a long time we've been looking for the right format to share the excitement of our expeditions with viewers around the world,” stated Greg Stemm, Odyssey’s Chief Executive Officer. “JWM has a proven track record of producing smart, compelling television and Discovery Channel is the #1 media and television brand in overall quality for the eighth straight year. We're sure that Discovery's viewers will enjoy 'being there' during our shipwreck search and exploration expeditions,” Stemm continued.

“Odyssey is recovering not only treasures, but fascinating shipwreck stories from the bottom of the world’s oceans. And our job is to deliver these stories, discoveries and adventures to Discovery’s viewers in a way that brings them right into the action,” explained Jason Williams, President and Co-founder of JWM Productions. “We’re looking forward to an exciting season with unparalleled coverage of Odyssey’s operations.”

“This series will give our viewers a front row seat as Odyssey’s archaeological and forensics teams search for sunken treasures and unravel the mysteries of long-lost shipwrecks,” said John Ford, president and general manager of Discovery Channel. “This compelling 11-part series will show viewers the intense drama of underwater detective work and we are excited to have JWM creating this series for our audiences around the globe.”

In this immersive series, viewers will join the Odyssey Marine Exploration team as they brave high seas, heavy weather, political red tape and courtroom clashes to keep their research vessels and deep ocean equipment operational on the hunt for underwater archaeological sites and shipwrecks that each have unique stories to tell. Episodes will include forensic analysis with stunning computer graphics as well as experts in cutting-edge laboratories laboring to analyze and conserve fragile artifacts recovered from the watery depths. Each episode, viewers will be involved in solving dramatic maritime mysteries and treated to spectacular underwater HD video of shipwreck discoveries through the cameras of Odyssey’s Remotely Operated Vehicles (ROVs), as well as the real life battle to keep the treasures they discover.

TAMPA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (NASDAQ:OMEX - News), the world leader in deep ocean shipwreck exploration, has granted Primetime Emmy® Award-winning JWM Productions exclusive access to film Odyssey’s 2008 Atlas Search expeditions to produce a shipwreck exploration television series. Discovery Channel expects to premiere the 11-part High Definition (HD) series to worldwide audiences in 2009. Production is slated to begin immediately.

Jeff

I understand you love, devotion and spirit of defend that you feel for Odyssey posting about new television series in Discovery channel,but nothing going to change in court. HD,SD,24fps,30fps,60fps, Digital signal, 3CCD camera, Sony,Canon, Panasonic,tripod,lightings,mic. or whatever they use to video shoot, absolutely nothing going to change. The wise decision is to wait until the trial is over and the judge say who will own the 500M coins.

regards

Amona

Ahhhh Amona, your hatred for Odyssey is well known. I find it curious that you are ALSO a treasure hunter (like Odyssey) and your motto is "do what you want." Anyway, that post by Jeff had nothing to do with coins. I will be looking forward to seeing the series and hearing of Odyssey's successful court case. In the meantime, scroll down and read the post about antiquities trade.

Ahhhh Amona, your hatred for Odyssey is well known. I find it curious that you are ALSO a treasure hunter (like Odyssey) and your motto is "do what you want." Anyway, that post by Jeff had nothing to do with coins. I will be looking forward to seeing the series and hearing of Odyssey's successful court case. In the meantime, scroll down and read the post about antiquities trade.

1. I don't hate anybody. About hate,there is many people in this country that hate anybody and anything that coming or have some relation with Spain and many of those people abound here in this forum.
2. Odyssey made mistake in "how" to.
3. Watch all you want, that I will "ALSO" hear Odyssey's trial case
4. Since 1998 I'd been scrolling down in this web site.
5. I never, ever will be like Odyssey as treasure hunter and if my motto is "Do whatever you want" I said that because a friend in mine,in my office,every morning tell me that sentence as a joke!
6. I understand very well that many people here support to Odyssey because they have stocks invested and that's very reasonable.

Have a good hunting and be original in you avatar 

Amona

About hate,there is many people in this country that hate anybody and anything that coming or have some relation with Spain and many of those people abound here in this forum.

Amona, once again you miss the point completely. Nobody hates everyone and everything about Spain, but most people with intelligence laugh at the absurd and predictable way Spain reacts to every undersea find. They lay claim to it EVERY time, often before they even know if it's Spanish. It happens without fail, and there is rarely any proof when the original complaint is filed, that is a simple and well documented historical FACT, look it up.

The rest of the world works a different way, we find PROOF, and then we make an accusation. Spain makes the accusation first, and then scurries around trying to find any shred of proof that might be available to support their claim. People with intelligence can see right through their actions. The fact remains that the only problem anyone here has with Spain is the backwards way they choose to operate in these matters. And yes, most of us here hope for them to loose because of these actions, not because we have any particular problem with Spain as a country or a people.

I'm guessing you don't like my avatar either? Sorry about that, but I happen to be associated with a very intelligent group of individuals who are doing some great things. I use our dive team logo as my avatar because I am proud to be a member of that group. I suspect that Spain will soon be suing us as well, because they feel that anything valuable found on the bottom of the ocean belongs to them until someone proves otherwise.

Your position on this is boring and ridiculous to me, don't be offended when I send you an "I told you so" email after the courts are done with this one and Odyssey walks with 80% or better. For the record, I don't own any Odyssey stock or have any affiliation with them. I just don't understand how you can miss the point about Spain's conduct, and why logical people hope for them to fail in every court case.

Jason

Scuba F.

I don't miss, I just see the reality that you and many of your partners don't want to see. Read this thread that Jeff posted and you tell me what is the relation of this thread with Odyssey own the coins? or why folks here make mention about what Spain did in the past, many centuries ago with the Odysse's trial?

Amona... Read this post, and then tell me the Spanish deserve one single coin.

Atrocities of the Spanish Conquistadors in the West Indies c. 1513


This account is from Bartolome de Las Casas.  He was a missionary and conquistador.  He took part in the conquest of Cuba.  These accounts happened after this and one has to believe he was very troubled by what he witnessed.  There is no doubt about it; the Spanish were cruel in the conquest for gold and land.  Events like these listed below did nothing to help relations between the vastly different cultures.  Instead it was a major reason why the Taino and Arawak peoples became extinct.

The Spaniards with their horses, their spears and lances, began to commit murders and other strange cruelties.  They entered into towns and villages, sparing neither children nor old men and women.  They ripped their bellies and cut them to pieces as if they had been slaughtering lambs in a field.  They made bets with each other over who could thrust a sword into the middle of a man or who could cut off his head with one stroke.  They took little ones by their heels and crushed their heads against the cliffs.  Others they threw into the rivers laughing and mocking them as they tumbled into the water.  They put everyone they met to the edge of the sword.

One time I saw four or five important native nobles roasted and broiled upon makeshift grills.  The cried out pitifully.  This thing troubled our Captain that he could not sleep.  He commanded that they be strangled.  The Sergeant (I know him and his friends from Seville) would not strangle them but put bullets into their mouths instead. 

I have seen all these things and others infinite.  Most tried to flee.  They tried to hide in the mountains.  They tried to flee from these men.  Men who were empty of all pity, behaving like savage beasts. They are nothing more than slaughterers and enemies of mankind.  These evil men had even taught their hounds, fierce dogs, to tear natives to pieces at first sight. 

AND, when, although rare, the Indians put to death some Spaniards upon good right and law of justice; the Spaniards made an agreement that for every one Spaniard killed they had to slay one hundred Indians.

One time the Indians came to meet us and receive us with food and good cheer!  Instead, the devil, which had put himself in the Spaniards, put them all to the edge of the sword in my presence, without any cause whatsoever, more than three thousand souls.  I saw there such great cruelties, that never any man living either have or shall see the like.

In three or four months (myself being present) there died more than six thousand children, which the Spanish had sent into the Gold mines

Your position on this is boring and ridiculous to me, don't be offended when I send you an "I told you so" email after the courts are done with this one and Odyssey walks with 80% or better

If that would happen, you don't have to send me any E-mail because I'm paying attention of everything what happen in Tampa court. If Odyssey win, I would say in this country the law is over the justice, if the loss, Spain demostrated that American underwater wreck search company don't own the seawater.You can send all E-mail you want, but I don't bother myself reading stupid mails from you and others like you that I know.

why logical people hope for them to fail in every court case

WELL, THEY DIDN'T FAIL FOR THE JUNO WRECK AND OTHER SPANISH WRECK ON VIRGINA STATE WATERS

And yes, most of us here hope for them to loose because of these actions, not because we have any particular problem with Spain as a country or a people.

Read what Jeff wrote and that's simple signal of what I said.

Anyway, that post by Jeff had nothing to do with coins

and then,..what is the main subject of this topic???  that's is boring and ridiculous like you said

Your position on this is boring and ridiculous to me

I'm sorry but I don't try to make you comfortable with my post, I just post my comment because "WE THE PEOPLE" are living in a democratic system


Amona

 

Odyssey Marine Exploration Files Admiralty Arrests on Two Shipwreck Sites
Thursday May 29, 1:00 pm ET


TAMPA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (Nasdaq:OMEX - News), the world leader in the field of deep-ocean shipwreck exploration, today filed Admiralty Arrest Complaints in the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Florida on two separate shipwreck sites recently discovered by the Company.

Both sites lie within the general area of the English Channel but are outside the territorial waters or contiguous zone of any sovereign nation. The sites both contain cannon and other artifacts which are believed to date from the Colonial period. Odyssey has conducted preliminary surveys but has not yet been able to confirm the identity of either site. The Company’s archaeological and conservation teams are currently developing archaeological excavation and conservation plans for both sites.

As with other shipwreck sites that the Company discovers, if either site can be identified, any potential claimants will be notified through appropriate private or public notices.

Odyssey’s core business is shipwreck exploration and archaeological excavation, so filing arrests on shipwreck sites to protect the Company’s legal interests occurs in the normal course of business. For security reasons, no additional information about these sites is being released at this time.

CNN Video...

http://edition.cnn.com/video/?/vide...08/06/09/goodman.spain.treasure.cnn

Archaeology Channel Comments...

Here's an interesting read of the comments concerning the Archaeology Channel airing of the program "Shipwrecks--with Odyssey Marine Exploration."

http://www.archaeologychannel.org/c...t/video/anthfldnotes6_comments.html

Ocean Odyssey Blog...

http://blogs.discovery.com/ocean_odyssey/2008/09/the-shipwreck-f.html

Times Article...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/co...est_contributors/article4685992.ece

 :icon_sunny:Just through I'd join in,I'm still waiting for Greg Stem to say how he will give the profits from the sale of the spanish coins to the people of Peru and Mexico
and only take out the cost of finding it. What do you think? Yea Right ! Or maybe as share holders you should give some of your Profits to the people of Peru and Mexico,
Just as long as those Bad ass Spaniards don't get it back, maybe if Odyssey win they should remove the Spanish coat of arms and the Spanish King from the coins,
and stamp them Odyssey Pirate Treasure?
Funny thing that , they have the Spanish coat of Arms and king on the coins that we all love so much, I prefer the cobs myself.
My last comment , Its good to see people like Amona can say what they feel
Sam

 Scuba finder

My point right now is work for my family, pay my bills. Either way, Spain or odyssey won't pay my bills and debt. Something is very clear, IF MISS THE POINT IS BE IN YOUR SAME POINT OF VIEW, ABSOLUTLY I MISSED THE POINT OF THIS TOPIC, MYSELF AND HUNDRED OF PEOPLE FROM EUROPE AND THE REST OF THE WORLD BECAUSE ODYSSEY 'D SHOWN BE HIGH TECH PIRATES AND SPAIN ONLY FIGHT FOR THEIRS SHIPS.IF FOR US NATIONAL PARK IS A BRAKE THE LAW TO USE AN METAL DETECTOR IN ANY NATIONAL PARK AND YOU, MYSELF AND ANY AMERICAN HERE IN TREASURENET RESPECT THOSE RULES, WHY DON'T RESPECT OTHERS COUNTRIES RULES AND LAWS?

It's my  point of view

Amona

El Pais Article...

http://tinyurl.com/5metxo

Jeff G, all this shows is that it belongs to Spain and its people, not odyssey and what the English did !
nobody,s jumping up and down about the English,How do you feel after the Japanese attacked pearl harbour?
English Pirates,Odyssey are the new day pirates ! You may say that Spain took the wealth from America,s
but the English then took it from them and they Did'nt give it back, they used it to expand their colonies,
like the US till you kicked them out! Can anybody tell if the English returned any of the looted treasures
back to the People of Peru or Mexico ?
more and Beyond

Ossy you are way off. The English took NOTHING from the people of Mexico or Peru. Maybe you are descendant of one of the convicts that England sent to Australia. That could be why you harbor such a hatred of the British?

scuba you missed my point !The English attacked the Spanish when not at War only for the treasure, which they knew was on board!
and killed 230 poor souls. Spain then declared war on England and joined the french,A bit like Pearl Harbour.
you say the English never took any thing from the People of Mexico or Peru, no they just waited for the Spanish to take it !
and then they would take it off the Spanish.Double standard's Mate ! They didn't give back, they just took it back to merry old England
Odyssey is only there to make money, they don't care how they do it! Maybe they should try Fort Knox.
And No I don't hate the English ,it's only some of the things they did !
Ossy

From another SUB-ARCH rocket scientist!!

This is an interesting take on the loot.  First we have applied 21st century morals, culture and law against the Spanish -hence making them accountable for Crimes Against Humanity on a retroactive basis.  200 years later, Greg Stemm, partner of Odyssey Marine Explorations, becomes a receiver of stolen goods, originally looted by the Spanish from the personal property of their victims.  In turn the Numismatic Guaranty Corporation of Florida USA - the highly respected coin restoration and grading authority used exclusively by Odyssey for the certification of their underwater coin finds - becomes an accomplice in the commission of a crime.  From there, various prestigious auction houses and rare coin dealerships become complicit in the sale of stolen goods, ending with the buyer, now vulnerable to the accusation of being in possession of stolen property.  Now there is enough fodder in this to occupy several generations of lawyers, in countless numbers of lawsuits in an infinite number of international courtrooms for several centuries.
ADD to this UNESCO's Convention on the Protection of Underwater Cultural Heritage (UCH), and the unanimous condemnation of the professional underwater archaeological community, and we have just rewritten "From Here to Eternity".Considering the fact that jewellery and coins have been melted into bullion, and recast into other pieces of jewellery or re-struck as new coins for eons, it is very likely there is a little bit of larceny in every gold or silver coin or piece of jewellery on the planet. As for now, it appears Odyssey has spirited away a cache of Gibraltar shipwrecked coins, now safely tucked away in some secure Floridian warehouse.  I wonder if the silver coins will bear the same invented moniker which Stemm managed to convince the prestigious Numismatic Guaranty Corporation to use on the sea damaged coins from his last successful looting of the wreck of the Civil War era coastal steamer, S.S. Republic?  Out of nowhere, numismatists were confronted by a strange, new condition-grade - the infamous Shipwreck Effect label, slapped upon the disappointing horde of American mid-19th century silver half dollars. What new name shall the clever marketing folks at Odyssey create for their latest haul of silver?  Perhaps the Spanish Flu Effect grade.  Whatever it is, it is bound to increase the collectable value of this horde of otherwise, saltwater-damaged coins. Based upon the famous P.T. Barnum adage that "there's a sucker born every minute"
I'm sure these
damaged coins will end in the hands of some novice collector, sure that with time his wildly over-priced coin will appreciate in value.  And we're just getting started.  With the ever-increasing sophistication of underwater technologies, the numismatic community will be swamped with the lost bounty of the abyss. For collectors of gold coins, it should stimulate a whole new era in coin-collecting. With the rare exception of the discovery of a gold coin or two being found in a basement, attic or ancient drawer, the availability of new specimens of certain vintage gold coins has dried up.
Now the oceans and seas of the world offer a vast potential new source.  But with it will also come a huge quantity of damaged silver coinage. Perhaps the Numismatic Guaranty Corporation can simply create a new collector's niche called "Seasick Coins".  Until then, to the seasoned coin-collector only two measurements determine the value of any coin.  Its rarity and its condition. Now, sophisticated salvagers are trying to add provenance to that value measurement. To the purist, all coins have but one provenance - the Mint at which they were struck.  That's it. Where it was found makes no difference to anyone but the salvager who spent $2 million recovering it. He wants to pass that charge along to the collector. Considering the price of gold today, plus the relative rarity of all gold coins, there's profit enough without gouging the collector for finding it. Silver coins present a bigger problem. Seldom are they not damaged by a saltwater grave.  That's where you'll see the salvager really try to compensate for the damage by spinning a grand tale of the mighty ship in which it sank. Otherwise, the coins are worth very little by the standard value measurements.  A damaged specimen is usually worth very little unless only one or two others are known to exist.  So beware the Seasick silver coin.  As an investment, it is usually a foolish one.  And that doesn't even begin to address the other huge issue of disturbing virgin wrecks yet to be examined by qualified underwater archaeologists. To the professional institutions and associations of underwater archaeology, I have but one suggestion.  Remember the treasure salvagers' most important target consumer - the numismatist, and their institutions and associations.  An educated consumer makes wiser decisions.


Pirate Diver

Pirate Diver... Do you have a link to that tripe?

First of all, the silver in these coins was not stolen from anybody.  It came from Spanish mines in Spanish colonies. The ship sank in 1804, long after the Spanish conquests in the 16th century. So much for the authors knowledge of history. Second, Odyssey will do good archaeology, and probably better than the author could ever do. They do have four archaeologists on the payroll.

Jeff: try this: https://lists.asu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SUB-ARCH. If this doesn't work, just Google SUB-ARCH and go from there. That list is a window into the hard line UNESCO proponents who despise all types of commercial archaeology. There is a great thread now pitting Rex Cowan, an old time Brit salvager against all the INA types and their offspring, the same crowd that is trying to stop all treasure work in Florida. Very enlightening!


Pirate Diver

That drivel on SUB-ARCH was written by Timothy Laurence, an evil enemy of all treasure hunters. If he is so much against this business, why don't the academic archaeologists go out and excavate the historic shipwrecks before the THers get them?
   Ossy, would you rather the wrecks remain untouched forever? No reason to hate Odyssey. They are just doing what is perfectly legal. I wish I had the means to go out there and salvage deepwater wreck sites.

scuba, I do agree leaving the wrecks to rot is wrong,is how to control the pillage of these wrecks and there history
Jeff, here's a question for you! how would odyssey control the artifacts, would they keep them in a US museum,
or a Spanish museum, Who's History is it ? the Mercedes never came close to the US coast, it was only a few hundred miles
from home, yep Spain!
The court case verdict may open up a whole new world of pirates, remember the Russians they have the same technology as odyssey,
who's going to control all this, shouldn't the country who's ship or cargo have some say in all this or is it pirate law, full broadside
mate'ie and take what you can ! I could go on forever, sorry I've had my say!
ossy (Spaniard living in Australia )

Sam... Odyssey will only sell the mass produced items like the 590,000 coins. They will keep the historical items for their traveling museum, and other museums. They already have loaned the New Orleans Mint and an Alabama museum items to display. Don't be surprised if you see artifacts in a Peru museum in the future, and yes, even a Spanish museum. Odyssey will bring more history to the surface than the rest of the archaeological community combined before they are finished.

Also there is an important point that keeps getting overlooked - Spain didn't own the coins that the private investors had on board -- no museum needed there.  Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the amount of 'private investor coins', a very similar number to the amount of coins actually found?  If the ship was sinking and the crew that were bailing her couldn't keep up w/ the weight -- maybe they tossed the private cargo over to save their lives.  How many thousands of pounds in weight would that have been?  Spains coins could have been deep down in the hull for safe keeping, underwater if the ship had taken to much.  Private cargo on other ships according to things I've read was always less secure and higher up.  Does anyone have any links or research to back that up?  Thanks.

Also there is an important point that keeps getting overlooked - Spain didn't own the coins that the private investors had on board -- no museum needed there.  Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the amount of 'private investor coins', a very similar number to the amount of coins actually found?  If the ship was sinking and the crew that were bailing her couldn't keep up w/ the weight -- maybe they tossed the private cargo over to save their lives.  How many thousands of pounds in weight would that have been?  Spains coins could have been deep down in the hull for safe keeping, underwater if the ship had taken to much.  Private cargo on other ships according to things I've read was always less secure and higher up.  Does anyone have any links or research to back that up?  Thanks.

[/font]

If we continue arguing these theories, I ask: what happen with the loads of the Atocha, Cazador, Santa Margarita, etc. etc. that were of private and have they been recovered? This doesn't have solution and at the end will be of Adam and Eve  . 

PDJ... When the Mercedes blew up she split in two, and the coins spilled out the hull. The ship actually floated away, and sank at another spot. I also believe that the King's money was segregated. Odyssey has recovered 590,000 silver pesos, and one historical document said there was a like amount of merchant money. I wouldn't be surprised if the King's money went down with the ship, and was probably stored in the stern.

Vox, If the cargo doesn't belong to Spain -- they don't have a claim.  Even if they do have a claim -- based on precedent, Odyssey is entitled to Salvage Rewards.

Treasure May Spark Mad Grab By Heirs

Aug 26, 2008 (Tampa Tribune - McClatchy-Tribune News Service via COMTEX) -- Aug. 26--TAMPA -- More people are sure to lay claim to what may be the largest treasure ever recovered from the sea, said Mark Gordon, president of Odyssey Marine Exploration, the company that found the loot more than a year ago.
In a wide-ranging interview with the Tribune about the treasure -- 17 tons of colonial-era coins worth an estimated $500 million -- Gordon said he thinks most of it belonged to private merchants. The company expects the descendants of those merchants to file legitimate claims at some point for the cargo in U.S. District Court in Tampa.

"There's lots of research available publicly that says more than two-thirds of the cargo was private merchant cargo," Gordon said. "We can tell you who put it on, and we can tell you who was expecting it."

Spain, however, is claiming ownership of the entire haul.

"We have always made the contention that there are multiple potential claimants in a case like this because it was transporting goods for a lot of different people," Gordon said. "Spain is saying it's solely theirs."

In court documents filed in federal court in Tampa, Spain claims the Spanish coins were on a 19th century Spanish warship known as the Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes, which was sunk by the British navy south of Portugal in 1804.

The Spanish government argues the coins on the Mercedes are immune from any claim or arrest in the United States and is demanding all of the treasure be returned to Spain.

Laws grant nations sovereign immunity over sunken warships in international waters. If the ship that carried the loot is deemed to be a Spanish warship, Odyssey could be ordered to return the coins to Spain.

But under international law, sovereign immunity applies only to military ships on a noncommercial mission. The Mercedes was converted into a freight vessel and was not on an exclusive military mission when it sank, Gordon said.

"If two-thirds of the cargo or more were private goods, it couldn't have been on an exclusively noncommercial mission," Gordon said.

Another major element in Spain's claim for the loot is missing: a shipwreck to examine.

There are no signs or evidence of a wreck at the site where the coins and artifacts were recovered, Gordon said.

"Sovereign immunity extends to a shipwreck, not to cargo not associated with a shipwreck," he said. "That's an important point that everyone keeps missing. There is no shipwreck there. That's why we feel pretty good about our case."

Odyssey executives, after being ordered by the court to provide their best hypothesis regarding the identity of the ship, say the loot most likely was the cargo of the Mercedes, the Spanish warship.

"Circumstantially, when you look at the coin dates and type and the amount, this cargo could have come from that ship," Gordon said.

James Goold, a lawyer representing the Spanish government, said there is no question that the coins recovered by Odyssey were aboard the Mercedes in a time of war. The Spanish government came to that conclusion after examining photos of the seabed where the coins were found, Goold said.

"What we know is that this ship was a Spanish navy frigate on a military mission that exploded and sank in an attack in 1804," Goold said. "More than 250 Spanish sailors died on it. The photographs of what's on the seabed tell the story."

Last week, Peru said it might file a formal claim for the coins recovered by Odyssey if it determines the coins originated in Peru. The coins were made from Peruvian metals and were minted in Lima.

The coins and artifacts are being held at a facility in Central Florida, Gordon said. He declined to be specific, citing security concerns.

"None of the cargo that's been recovered is actually in Tampa, but it's within the jurisdiction of the court," he said.

No matter how many legitimate claims are made, Odyssey will be awarded the majority of the loot, Gordon said. Under international law, awards of undersea finds are measured under a concept that benefits the finder, Gordon said.

"The people who lost the property aren't going to get a high score," he said. "I don't think they're going to be able to demonstrate that they've made a lot of effort and gone to great expense and risk to look for it."

Despite the historic find, Odyssey has lost more than $12 million during the first half of 2008. The company won't be able to realize any profit from its discovery until ownership rights are resolved by the court.

But the publicly held company has plenty of cash to fund its operations, thanks to investments of about $30 million by investment companies such as Strata Capital Management and Fortress Investment Group.

"When you look at who's investing, it's smart people investing again and again," Gordon said.

Shares of Odyssey fell 13 cents Monday to close at $4.66 on the American Stock Exchange. Shares are down 24 percent this year.

Reporter Russell Ray can be reached at (813) 259-7870 or rray@tampatrib.com.

PDJ you make me laugh :laughing7:the Mercedes didn't spring a leak and they started  bailing water out ! and yea sure they would go down in the lower
decks carry the gold and silver just to lighten the load, Did somebody forget the English gun fleet, yea ,war ships the 100 gun type letting fly !
Jeff how do know the Kings share was in the stern ? I get the message! you don't want Spain to win the case, who you kidding.
Everybody's forgeting, the merchants where all Spanish and there's a list ! I will have to make some inquires, one of my ancestors could own some of
the cargo, some of the names match.The artifacts belong in a Spanish and Peruvian museum its there history.
For all you guys out around the Florida coast, stay safe !
Ossy

The Mercedes transported: 
 
171 remittances of money of private 
213,998 pesos of royal treasure 
144.163 pesos of the crew 
51 pesos of Diego Alvear   
(AGI, Lima 1535) 
 
In gold it took 5,809 pesos besides some 10,000 pounds of manufactured silver (#48 of the register) 
All embarked items was revised by the royal customs of the Callao (Lima) 

Vox great info, Did you get this from the archive"s of Seville

From Capt. Graham Moore's letter to Cornwallis.

Jeff question for you, Do you work for odyssey ? also how did the English get there information on the Mercedes
Sam

Vox great info, Did you get this from the archive"s of Seville

Ossy, in the exhibition of the load there was an omission. Diego Alvear had registered 51,000 pesos. 
Yes, the information comes from the General Archive of Indies in Seville (AGI), section Lima, bundle 1535, also from the archive of the Spanish Navy the private archive of the family Alvear and the British Navy. Very important is the nautical information.

Vox,Ola
whats the important nautical information was the Mercedes in Spanish waters when she went down ?
Ossy

Ossy, Can you please describe for me the location where the Mercedes went down in relation to Spain and the basis for your statemet that it's in Spanish waters?
Ossy, also w/ regard to your potential claim since, 'some of the names match' -- IMO your going to want Odyssey to win this because, as I understand it, Spain thinks everything is theirs, not your 'ancestors'. 

Sam, Forget it don't bother, I'll answer it for you -- it's been stated as being beyond the territorial waters or legal jurisdiction of any country. 

Vox,Ola
whats the important nautical information was the Mercedes in Spanish waters when she went down ?
Ossy

In 1982 I participated with a group of Italian archaeologists, Portuguese and Spaniards in a localization operation. In 1984, the Portuguese Institute for the Cultural Patrimony knew that the Mercedes was near the cape Santa Maria and there are fishermen's stories that count, generation in generation, what happened near the cape.

How many feet of water (depth) was your operation conducted in?

How many feet of water (depth) was your operation conducted in?

Jeff question for you, Do you work for odyssey ? also how did the English get there information on the Mercedes
Sam

No, but I am a stockholder. They probably got the manifest from the Admiral's ship that was captured.

Vox,Ola
whats the important nautical information was the Mercedes in Spanish waters when she went down ?
Ossy

In 1982 I participated with a group of Italian archaeologists, Portuguese and Spaniards in a localization operation. In 1984, the Portuguese Institute for the Cultural Patrimony knew that the Mercedes was near the cape Santa Maria and there are fishermen's stories that count, generation in generation, what happened near the cape.

If that is the case, I guess that would mean that the treasure recover by odyssey is not that of the Mercedes. Interesting twist!

http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/battles/1804/c_santamaria.html
According to Cap't Moore they were approx 9 leagues south-west from 'Cape St. Mary', when they first spotted the 4 sailing ships, within 2-3 hours of blowing the Mercedes up.
9 UK Nautical Leagues = approx 279 miles or 450km -- this was wrong and corrected below on another post.
That's pretty far off-shore.

http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/battles/1804/c_santamaria.html
According to Cap't Moore they were approx 9 leagues south-west from 'Cape St. Mary', when they first spotted the 4 sailing ships, within 2-3 hours of blowing the Mercedes up.
9 UK Nautical Leagues = approx 279 miles or 450km
That's pretty far off-shore.

9 leagues = 27 nautical miles

http://www.sizes.com/units/league.htm

my bad.  Still assuming they were 31 miles (27 nautical miles offshore- and in chase heading w-s) that puts them well beyond territorial waters.  No?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters

Looks like Peru wants some of the action too, because that's where the coins were hammered 

Peru Demands Return of Odyssey Treasure, Garcia Belaunde Says

By Alex Emery

Sept. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Odyssey Marine Exploration Inc.'s 17 ton-haul (15,400 kilograms) of sunken treasure from the Atlantic Ocean originated in Peru and must be returned, the Andean country's Foreign Minister Jose Garcia Belaunde said today.

The 500,000 gold coins on Spanish warship Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes were minted in Peru, at the time a Spanish colony, Garcia Belaunde said. The ship was sunk by the British navy in 1804.

``This gives us ownership, as this was and continues to be Peruvian territory,'' Garcia Belaunde said at a press conference. ``It belongs to us through the principle of succession of states.''

Spain has also filed a claim for the treasure.

Many Floridian and General shipwreck hunter support Odyssey with theirs comments and arguments here about "who" own the $500M. I like to see the day (if odyssey win the trial) if Odyssey will go to "share" all $500M with all you just all support given during this process.

Amona

L BO the coins are milled, made by machine's that Spain brought over from Europe, not hammered by slaves as you think.
and Peru at the time was a Spanish state.
Ossy

At the end of the following link: http://www.napoleon-series.org/mili...ttles/1804/c_santamaria.html#_ftn23
It says:
"The treasure aboard the Nuestra Senora de Las Mercedes – often wrongly identified in news reports as a Spanish galleon – was estimated at $500-million"
If it's not a Spanish Galleon, does anyone know what it was exactly?
PDJ

It was a Spanish frigate of 34 guns, 12 pounders. I had my own company in the early 90's formed specifically to get a permit from Portugal to go after this  wreck. Needless to say we were not successful, as a new socialist government took over and proved friendly to the hard line archaeologists who are terrified of such ventures. I have some very interesting documents I have tried to post here but for some reason I cannot make it happen. If someone would like to help out posting these please let me know.

Thanks,

Pirate Diver

It was a Spanish frigate of 34 guns, 12 pounders. I had my own company in the early 90's formed specifically to get a permit from Portugal to go after this  wreck. Needless to say we were not successful, as a new socialist government took over and proved friendly to the hard line archaeologists who are terrified of such ventures. I have some very interesting documents I have tried to post here but for some reason I cannot make it happen. If someone would like to help out posting these please let me know.

Thanks,

Pirate Diver

Bob, how you know that was the Mercedes? Did you find the bell or another evident sign of identification? 
In 1996 two Portuguese divers found evident and visible remains at 1.5 miles of the cape of a shipwreck with 12 cannons. The place is the same one found by us in 1982, but we evidence more cannons. 
In 1991 COMEX proposed me an agreement, but I didn't accept. 
Also, is another Portuguese that knows where the Mercedes is because it also dove her in several occasions. His name is Fernando Cardoso.   
Why Diego Alvear affirms, witness of view and expert seaman that had the whole coast of the cape visible at 9 in the morning and has drawn several views of the combat later on with the very visible mountains? From 180 miles you cannot see the whole coast.

Claudio: we never got permission to look so we didn't find anything. What did you find that makes you think you found it?


Pirate Diver

my bad.  Still assuming they were 31 miles (27 nautical miles offshore- and in chase heading w-s) that puts them well beyond territorial waters.  No?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters

PDJ, how reached the load 27-31 miles to the 180 declared by Odyssey?

From the court arrest papers.

"The Defendant Shipwrecked Vessel is lying at a depth of approximately 1100 meters, beyond the territorial waters or contiguous zone of any sovereign nation approximately 100 miles west of the Straits of Gibraltar."

From the court arrest papers.

"The Defendant Shipwrecked Vessel is lying at a depth of approximately 1100 meters, beyond the territorial waters or contiguous zone of any sovereign nation approximately 100 miles west of the Straits of Gibraltar."

If at 6 in the morning they were 31 miles from the cape, how they reached in 3 hours (9 of the morning) up to 100 miles?  It is impossible in three hours to travel 69 miles in 1804. 

Vox, I suppose it's possible because approx 30 miles from the cape and approx 100 miles west of the straight being two different points from which to measure can line up to be approx the same location.  Either way, from the descriptions of accounts and what Jeff provided, your wreck (Vox) is not the same as Odyssey's.  Which begs the question that pirate diver asked earlier to you -- "What did you find that makes you think you found it?" (The Mercedes)

PDJ, looking at the news of 2007 is not clear if the recovery happened at 100 or 180 nautical miles west of Gibraltar. This is very important to know and to give an opinion. 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Swan_Project

I think Jeff was referencing a court document from 08'.  I don't know that I would base my opinion on news from 07'.  Gibraltar is even further east than the straight so maybe that measurement is close too?  The straight itself is about 36miles long.  Either way, I don't know.  What I do know -- is it's too deep for anyone to have dove unless you have a submarine.

[distant 7 leagues (21 nautical miles]

Vox, I suppose it's possible because approx 30 miles from the cape and approx 100 miles west of the straight being two different points from which to measure can line up to be approx the same location.  Either way, from the descriptions of accounts and what Jeff provided, your wreck (Vox) is not the same as Odyssey's.  Which begs the question that pirate diver asked earlier to you -- "What did you find that makes you think you found it?" (The Mercedes)

PDJ. This is the historical information about the lost of the Mercedes. 
 
6 AM. Diego Alvear, frigate Medea. North, 14º East of the Monchique mountain. At 6.30 o'clock AM from the frigate Clara 3 sails were recognized to the first quadrant. At 8 o'clock AM recognized to be 4. They continued navigating with direction ENE. 
6 AM. Miguel Zapiain, frigate Fame: Monchique mountain to the NNE, distant 7 leagues (21 nautical miles).  At 6.30 o'clock AM recognized 4 sails to the NE. 
 
6 AM. Graham Moore: Santa María cape, to the NE, distant 9 leagues (27 nautical miles) but personally I think that they were to 6 leagues (18 n.m.) 
 
9 AM. Diego Alvear: Monte Figo (north of the Santa Maria cape) NE, 5º with the whole coast visible. 
 
It challenges to demonstrates me with accustomed arguments that the Mercedes is at more than 50 miles from the coast.

Santa Maria cape

http://pinksheets.com/pink/quote/quote.jsp?symbol=omex

You can get a quote for a NYSE listed security there too.

Have a look at this site : historyhuntersinternational.org/index.php  go to Odyssey Marine Exploration and the Mercedes
and get the full story. Military naval mission has nothing to do  with cargo or manifests.
Military missions, particularly naval missions, are determined by order's issued by the state's naval command to her naval assets,
such documents, in the case of the Mercedes, have been made public by the kingdom of Spain.
Have a look also at , The Spanish frigate Nuestra Senora DE Mercedes and the soul of the Monroe Doctrine.
Contrary to Odysseys representation that there is " an actual absence of a vessel at the site, Odyssey's own photographs and video of the site show the remains of a
Spanish warship of the time of the Mercedes !
Ossy

Have a look at this site : historyhuntersinternational.org/index.php  go to Odyssey Marine Exploration and the Mercedes

Ossy, unfortunately - the site that you are referring to has been found to be extremely unreliable and biased. Furthermore, The two principals of that site Soloman and Diving Doc, have been banned from TreasureNet for multiple forum rules violations.
I would not ever use that site as a reference for any alleged factual information.

Tom

Spanish Press...

http://tinyurl.com/53lwln

Odyssey itself 'holds proof that treasure is Spanish'

‘NUESTRA SEÑORA IS OURS’ – SPAIN
By Brian Reyes

Spain yesterday accused Odyssey Marine Exploration of stripping valuable treasure from a sunken Spanish warship and claimed the company’s own evidence proved this. In a lengthy court filing in Florida, lawyers for Madrid asked a federal judge to dismiss Odyssey’s claim over the site and the treasure.

Hundreds of thousands of coins and historical items should be returned to Spain and thecompany should be disqualified from receiving any compensation, the Spanish lawyers argued.

“Wilful ignorance and misrepresentations should not be encouraged by granting a salvage award in this case,” they said.

This was the latest turn in the long-running saga over the Black Swan treasure, which Odyssey flew from Gibraltar to the US amid great controversy last year.

In its court filing, Spain was trying to demonstrate that the coins came from a Spanish warship called Nuestra Señora de la Mercedes and that its remains were protected by the principle of sovereign immunity.

Spain had never abandoned the wreck and Odyssey had no permission to work there, Spain’s lawyers said in the 36-page document.

“Odyssey’s pending claims in this case seek to assert rights over the shipwreck of a warship of the Royal Spanish Navy,” they said.

“The gravesite of military personnel who died in the service of their nation may not be subjected to unauthorized and covert exploitation for private profit, as Odyssey well knows.”

In the document, Spain refuted Odyssey’s claim that there is no evidence of an actual wreck at the Black Swan site.

According to Spain, photographs taken by the company show wooden structures, debris and artefacts commonly associated with a shipwreck.

Spain also said many of the items recovered from the seabed match the cargo that was known to be on board the Mercedes when it sailed from Callao, in Peru, on its fateful voyage to Spain.

The arguments are at sharp odds with Odyssey’s own assessment of the evidence.

The company has always maintained that there is no wreckage at the site and that there is insufficient evidence to link the coins to any ship in particular. It has also strongly defended its operations and insisted that they comply fully with all relevant laws.

“I have found Spain’s filing deceptive and disingenuous,” said Ali Nesser, Odyssey’s director of international relations.

“There are statements contained in the motion and it’s accompanying documents which are outright false.”

“Odyssey has done everything in this case according to all proper legal and archaeological protocols and to say otherwise is deceptive and infla-mmatory.” “In any case, the motion fails to address some of the most important legal issues including the commercial mission of the Mercedes, as well as the privately owned cargo aboard and the potential rights of other claimants.” Odyssey now has until November to reply to the Spanish case.

It's sad to read an article like this one. If I would own Odyssey company,that trouble wouldn't happen to me because I don't suffer of greed, I learned since I was a child to "share the cake" with others specialty when that cake has been prepared and owned for others before than me.Actually, this is the principal of the problem that we're living here in EU, mortgage crisis, Fed reserve high interest,etc,etc.making almost impossible to live happy, because somebody wants your money(counties,state,Fed,banks,etc,)

It's my opinion

Amona

Actually, this is the principal of the problem that we're living here in EU, mortgage crisis, Fed reserve high interest,etc,etc.making almost impossible to live happy, because somebody wants your money(counties,state,Fed,banks,etc,)

Amona,

Are you sure you don't live here in the USA?  That sounds mighty like us!

Seriously,

I had not realized that the Mercedes had sailed directly from Peru to(wards) Spain. Does anybody know how common this was, and what route she would have taken ?(via the Magellan Strait, I assume).

I thought that most treasure went from Callao to Panama and then overland for onward shipment to Spain, but maybe that was not still the case by 1804.

Mariner

Amona,

Are you sure you don't live here in the USA?  That sounds mighty like us!

Seriously

yes I live here in EU but maybe you missed my point.

Amona

Mariner... The Mercedes stopped at Montivideo, Uruguay, before sailing to Spain.

Amona... I didn't realize Sardinera, Mona Island, was part of the EU. 

Amona... I didn't realize Sardinera, Mona Island, was part of the EU

jeff

I said "Sardinera" because is my favorite place to camp when I go to that island but that doesn't mean I live there because is a "wildlife santuary".If I could, I would live there.
Amona

Amona I,m with you, I'd prefer to live on the Island and get away from the rat race ! 
Jeff thanks for the Info you keep posting, Do you know when the court will make a decision on the Mercedes.
I still can't understand how a US court can make a decision on, as Odyssey say! international waters
Shouldn't an international court make the decision ? Maybe that's why the US is in trouble it has it's finger in
to many pie's.
The US coughs and Australia catches a cold.
Ossy

Good afternoon ossy el Tinker/ Bush Ranger:     I am curious also

Don Jose de La Mancha

Ossy... You can arrest a shipwreck in any Admiralty Court of any nation. Of course, it's cheaper if you can do it in your own hometown like Tampa. Odyssey has until Nov. 17th to respond to Spain's claim for sovereign immunity. If the judge denies the claim then the case will proceed to the next step which is discovery. After that the judge will set a pretrial hearing date, and then a trial date. Hopefully, the case will be over by the end of the first quarter of 2009. After that, who knows, maybe an appeal by the side that loses. If Spain loses on the sovereign immunity, a settlement may be possible.

P.S. I'm laying odds the judge will deny sovereign immunity, because there was commercial cargo on the Mercedes.

Jeff, is the same case that Juno and Galga? They also transported commercial load but the supreme court gave the reason to Spain. Your opinion will be appreciated.

The Juno & Galga case is a red herring. They sank inside US territorial waters, and came under US law. The Mercedes sank in international waters, so US law does not apply here. The judge will decide this case under UNCLOS. Apples & Oranges!

Court Case Q&A...

http://shipwreck.net/bsfaq26sept08.html

Ola Vox,In the English reports after the battle, didn't the English report the Mercedes as royal frigate flying
the royal navy colour's.
Haven't royal galleons always carried merchant goods ? the treasure fleets ?
Hope you don,t get any lemons Jeff

The Juno & Galga case is a red herring. They sank inside US territorial waters, and came under US law. The Mercedes sank in international waters, so US law does not apply here. The judge will decide this case under UNCLOS. Apples & Oranges!

Court Case Q&A...

http://shipwreck.net/bsfaq26sept08.html

Jeff, international waters is beyond the 200 miles, but this doesn't coincide with the declarations of Odyssey 100 and later 180 miles. They lack 20 to reach 200 of international waters.   
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ns_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea 
 
Anyway, 180 are in the EEZ of Portugal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:...ortugal_Exclusive_Economic_Zone.png 
 
Your opinion will be appreciated. Thanks

Vox hope you are well :icon_sunny:I have a question for you ! Is Spain going to start to do something with their
under water history? Its about time they did something ! ya es ora.
Ossy

Vox hope you are well :icon_sunny:I have a question for you ! Is Spain going to start to do something with their
under water history? Its about time they did something ! ya es ora.
Ossy

Ossy, there is a play where a part says: as the market gardener's dog. Neither they eat neither they allow to eat!! This is what happens in Spain. 
But this doesn't mean that there are laws and international treaties as The Law of the Sea.

Ola Vox,In the English reports after the battle, didn't the English report the Mercedes as royal frigate flying
the royal navy colour's.
Haven't royal galleons always carried merchant goods ? the treasure fleets ?
Hope you don,t get any lemons Jeff

In the XVIII century and with the arrival of the Borbones Spain had a Navy like we understand at the moment. Previously, for the trips to Indies (America) the galleons were freighted to privates. Undoubtedly the Mercedes was a ship of the Royal Spanish Navy and then was usual to transport goods, because these ships were also ships mail. In fact, the Mercedes transported also money of the administration of mail of Lima.

Claudio... International water starts at the 12 mi. limit as far as shipwrecks are concerned. The EEZ was set up for natural resources, and the last time I looked a shipwreck is not a natural resource. You can spout all the nonsense you want, but the law is the law.

Claudio... International water starts at the 12 mi. limit as far as shipwrecks are concerned. The EEZ was set up for natural resources, and the last time I looked a shipwreck is not a natural resource. You can spout all the nonsense you want, but the law is the law.

Jeff, you are an expert in this matter. Can you illuminate us getting an evident demonstration of your statement? Many thanks.

[natural resources]

Exclusive economic zones (EEZs) 
Extend 200 nautical miles from the baseline. Within this area, the coastal nation has sole exploitation rights over all natural resources. The EEZs were introduced to halt the increasingly heated clashes over fishing rights, although oil was also becoming important. The success of an offshore oil platform in the Gulf of Mexico in 1947 was soon repeated elsewhere in the world, and by 1970 it was technically feasible to operate in waters 4000 metres deep. Foreign nations have the freedom of navigation and overflight, subject to the regulation of the coastal states. Foreign states may also lay submarine pipes and cables.

Jeff,

There is a thing called the Contiguous Zone that exists between the Territorial Waters and the Exclusive Economic Zone, but only if the country has invoked its right to declare this Contiguous Zone.  In the US, Bill Clinton declared the Contiguous Zone, which runs 12 nautical miles beyond the Territorial Waters.  Rights in the Contiguous Zone are the same as in Territorial Waters, as far as things like shipwrecks are concerned.  US jurisdiction over shipwrecks is therefore 24 miles for the USA, and as you say, the EEZ only covers natural features.

Do you know if Spain has a Contiguous Zone beyond its Territorial waters.

Sorry if this has already been covered. I just dip in and out of this thread from time to time, while the court goes through its process.

In any case, I think the wreck is beyond the 24 nm limit, isn't it?

I agree with you Jeff about the likely verdict and the reason for it.

Mariner

I decided I shouldn't be so lazy on a simple question like this, so I looked it up on the Internet.

Spain extended its Territorial Sea limit to 12 nm in January 1977, and added a Contiguous Zone of another 12 nm in November 1992, making the extent of its jurisdiction over things like shipwrecks 24 nautical miles. This is between 26 and 27 "land" miles.

Mariner

Mariner... The Black Swan site is outside the Contiguous Zone according to the arrest docs.

Mariner, what about Portugal?

Vox,

Portugal is 12 nm Territorial Sea and a Contiguous Zone of another 12 nm.  There are agreements about the waters where their zones overlap with neighboring Spain, but I did not look at those in any detail.

Mariner

Mariner... The Black Swan site is outside the Contiguous Zone according to the arrest docs.

Jeff, which authority or institution has verified the place of the arrest declared in May 2007?

Spain was given the location, so they can verify if they haven't already done so.

I will wonder better. There is or there is not a public institution forced to verify the place of the arrest and what the finder has found? If positive which institution verifies the discovery?