Odyssey Marine Article...

I don't agree with the 20 miles. The Mercedes is at smaller distance from the coast!! 

Odyssey PR...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Black-Swan-Case-to-Move-to-bw-593065689.html?x=0&.v=1

"The three most famous shipwreck cases to date were reversed on appeal." I believe there will be a fourth case reversed on appeal based on the commercial activity of the Mercedes and Odyssey will get it all!

Salvor6... The appellate court will be ruling on FSIA. If they rule in Odyssey's favor, they'll send the case back to the lower court for trial. If they rule in Spain's favor, then Odyssey could take the case to the Supreme Court.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Sovereign_Immunities_Act

I haven't been Odyssey's greatest fan on this particular project, but I believe that the appeals court will rule in their favor because of the fact that the Mercedes was not on purely non-commercial duties. It is important that the US Courts respect andreflect the Laws of the Sea, and not make up their own rules as they go, more important than who gets these particular goodies.

Mariner

Sigh  "A U.S. district judge has ruled that U.S. treasure-hunting company Odyssey Marine Exploration should
return to Spain a fortune in old coins recovered from the wreck of a 19th-century Spanish warship"

FOXNews.com - Archaeology

Don Jose de La Mancha

"One for the Gipper"...

Judge Pizzo's recommendation on the Land Ends site.
---------------------------------------------------------------

I recommend the district court grant Odyssey’s motion for partial summary judgment under the law of finds.

Based on the foregoing, it is hereby

RECOMMENDED:
1. Plaintiff Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc.’s motion for partial summary judgment
(doc. 156) be GRANTED; and

2. Plaintiff Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. be granted title to the objects it has thus far recovered from the shipwreck site at issue in this case, as set out in Exhibits B and C to Odyssey’s motion for partial summary judgment.

IT IS SO REPORTED at Tampa, Florida on January 5, 2010.

MARK A. PIZZO

Jeff,

Sorry, Jeff, but can you remind me to which wreck this refers?

Best wishes for 2010,

Mariner
 

Mariner... This is the site south of Lands End that they arrested in 2006. They thought it might be the Merchant Royal, but it's not. They found ivory and about 40 cannon, but still haven't been able to identify it.

watched loads of episodes on cable but this thread is the most intresting part i like wish you all the best lads happy hunting n keep yer heads down

Cartagena busca exhibir el expolio de Odyssey

06.01.10 – La Verdad, por JOSÉ ALBERTO GONZÁLEZ | CARTAGENA.

El Arqua confía en tener el tesoro de la fragata 'Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes', mientras en EE UU sigue el pleito de España y los cazatesoros

Cuando, en 1804, frente a la costa de Portugal, un oficial de la marina inglesa exigió al almirante Bustamante que le permitiera inspeccionar la fragata 'Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes', el bravo oficial de la Armada Española no dudó en abrir fuego para defender a cañonazo limpio el rico tesoro del Virreinato de Perú que transportaba desde Lima hasta Cádiz. Estaban en juego no sólo el honor de la patria, que en ese momento paradójicamente estaba en paz con Inglaterra, sino también 500.000 monedas de oro y plata, entre otros bienes.

Doscientos seis años después, ni el Ministerio de Cultura se ha liado a cañonazos con la empresa cazatesoros Odyssey para recuperar la carga del navío expoliada por ésta del fondo marino en mayo del 2007, ni los responsables del Museo Nacional de Arqueología Subacuática (Arqua), ubicado en Cartagena, se liarán a su vez a intercambiar pólvora con los del Ministerio para que el tesoro recale en este centro. Pero, al igual que los especialistas de Cultura acaban de ganar una importante batalla en la guerra judicial con Odyssey en Estados Unidos (EE. UU.), los del Arqua usan todas sus armas de persuasión para que el Gobierno español exhiba el tesoro en el museo que él mismo construyó como referente nacional del patrimonio estatal sumergido en mares, ríos o lagos.

El juez Mark Pizzo, de Tampa (Florida), sentenció el pasado 23 de diciembre que la compañía norteamericana Odyssey Marine Exploration debía devolver a España en diez días la carga, valorada en 500 millones de dólares. En total son 17 toneladas de reales de plata y escudos de oro acuñados en el Virreinato del Perú.

El fallo reconoce las alegaciones españolas y concluye que el pecio corresponde al buque de guerra 'Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes', y no al 'Cisne negro', nombre dado por los 'piratas' estadounidenses; y determina que el lugar del hundimiento y todos los objetos hallados están bajo soberanía española.

No obstante, la empresa anunció la presentación de un recurso para hacer valer sus supuestos derechos sobre el hallazgo. Entre sus argumentos figuran el que no hay pruebas definitivas de que se trate del citado navío de la Armada y que, en todo caso, el buque estaba en una misión comercial y no militar cuando se hundió en el Océano Atlántico.

El caso es que mientras Odyssey mantiene bajo llave las riquezas en uno de sus almacenes de Florida y prosigue su pugna en los tribunales, desde el Museo Nacional de Arqueología Subacuática hacen ya valer sus galones ante el Gobierno de cara a la probable exposición al público de los restos a corto o medio plazo.

Rapiña inglesa y americana

Así lo admite el director del Arqua, Rafael Azuar: «Estamos esperanzados e ilusionados con la posibilidad de poder exponer estos tesoros en nuestro museo, pero hay que tener prudencia y seriedad porque la decisión no es nuestra, sino del Ministerio. Eso sí, mis compañeros del Arqua y yo aprovechamos cada foro de expertos al que acudimos y cada encuentro con el Ministerio para recordar que el Arqua sería el sitio idóneo para esta colección, porque somos el centro de referencia estatal y esta colección no debe disgregarse sino permanecer unida».

La aportación de los técnicos del museo cartagenero al informe presentado por el Ministerio de Cultura ante la Justicia estadounidense ha resultado vital para la victoria provisional lograda por España, y ésta es una baza que tal vez pueda aprovechar Cartagena.

En todo caso, Rafael Azuar se muestra comedido y cree que «lo más importante es que la Justicia está dando la razón a España reiteradamente», si bien debe resolverse el recurso de Odyssey y en su caso la forma en que entregaría las monedas a España.

El director del Arqua confesó que en todos los museos del país sobre patrimonio sumergido están «impacientes» por saber el desenlace de esta rocambolesca historia.

Precedente judicial

En tono optimista, Rafael Azuar aseguró tener constancia de que en el Gobierno central «ven con buenos ojos» la posibilidad de transferir los fondos a la ciudad portuaria. Este diario intentó sin éxito recabar la opinión del Ministerio.

Que el museo alberguen valiosas piezas del imperio marítimo con que un día España conquistó otros continentes no sería algo excepcional ni arbitrario. El museo acoge ya el ancla de un pecio español entregada por Estados Unidos.

Se trata del ancla de la fragata 'Juno', un navío expoliado junto con la fragata 'Galga' por la empresa cazatesoros Sea Hunter. La Corte Federal de EE. UU. reconoció los derechos legítimos del Reino de España sobre ambos navíos de la Armada en el año 2000.

La 'Juno', de 34 cañones, zarpó del puerto mexicano de Veracruz, pero se perdió varias millas mar adentro cuando iba a Cádiz en 1802, en la época del rey Carlos IV. La 'Juno' y la 'Galga' integraban los convoyes interoceánicos que España mantuvo desde el siglo XVI hasta la independencia de sus posesiones americanas en el siglo XIX.

La exposición del ancla «es un precedente jurídico importante y un ejemplo material de que el Gobierno apostó por Cartagena. Ojalá decida igual ahora», dice Azuar.

Para el arqueólogo y buzoJuan Pinedo, que lleva a cabo trabajos para instituciones españolas y es investigador asociado de la Universidad de Texas, el Arqua «tiene capacidad suficiente a nivel expositivo y de restauración de piezas» para acoger el tesoro de Odyssey.

Visión moderna

Además, considera que éste permitiría al museo incluir una visión de la arqueología moderna, ya que su colección actual está integrada por piezas de yacimientos clásicos, de la época fenicia a la medieval.

Juan Pinedo no oculta que uno de los obstáculos para que Cartagena disponga del tesoro es que el Ministerio decida abrir un museo en Madrid con estas piezas, en función de su «gran relevancia». Esta decisión chocaría con el hecho de que las piezas pertenecieron a un navío la Armada y ésta tiene una de sus principales bases en Cartagena.



http://www.laverdad.es/murcia/20100106/cultura/cartagena-busca-exhibir-expolio-20100106.html

Jeff,

Thanks for the reminder. I guess I still had the impression that this was the site of the Merchant Royal, when I think about it. Do we know from their public filing what the nature of this wreck is? Is it a very valuable site?

Mariner

Jesus! ARQUA museum should wait a little, at least until the last "supreme" decision. It's too bad that this museum is, at the present day, only a great building with not much activity inside. Short of founding, the most they can do is a kind of academic storing. And even for that they are looking for an industrial construction close to Cartagena city to put a big amount of archaeological stuff in there. The journalist sounds very very optimistic. I still remember the former Ministry of Culture, Carmen Calvo, saying that it could be Cádiz the last place to this treasure, exactly a really in bad shape building, over a beach, with no physical room for that amount of coins and impossible to keep save from a medium thief. The idea of a new museum just for the coins sounds like a bad joke. I really hope that this press article is just a few words to fulfill the paper on these days with no much news. If not, it could be a reflection of the "I don't know what to do with this" of the spanish administration

Talking about the ARQUA (National Museum of Underwater Archaeology of Spain): (Please Jeff)
LA JUSTICIA OBLIGA A CULTURA A REPONER AL DIRECTOR DEL MUSEO DE CARTAGENA
ABC- JESÚS GARCÍA CALERO | MADRID
Las tormentas que hacen naufragar las naves no tienen la última
palabra. En arqueología submarina es natural que los arqueólogos
vuelvan a la superficie con historias que contar. Algo así puede
decirse del Museo Nacional de Arqueología Marítima de Cartagena
(Arqua). Obligado por una sentencia de la Sala 6ª del Tribunal
Superior de Justicia (TSJ) de Madrid, el Ministerio de Cultura está
obligado a reponer como director a Iván Negueruela, que fue cesado de
la dirección del Arqua en enero de 2006, siendo ministra Carmen Calvo,
según ha sabido ABC de fuentes judiciales. El prestigioso arqueólogo
recurrió el cese por considerarlo ilegal y cuatro años después la
Justicia le da la razón, por lo que el Ministerio que hoy dirige
Ángeles González-Sinde ya ha dispuesto su reincorporación al cargo.
Según parece, la semana pasada un alto funcionario de Cultura se
desplazó al Museo Nacional de Cartagena para informar a los
trabajadores de la reposición de Negueruela y de que el actual
director, Rafael Azuar, originalmente funcionario de la Diputación de
Alicante, que sustituyó a Negueruela en 2006, cesó ayer, 10 de enero,
para volver a su administración de origen. Se da la circunstancia de
que la salida de Negueruela de la dirección del Museo de Cartagena
coincidió con la intensificación de las actividades de Odyssey Marine
Exploration en aguas del Estrecho.
Su reposición en el cargo coincide con el final del juicio en Tampa
contra Odyssey y con la inminente puesta en marcha del Plan Nacional
de Arqueología Subacuática. El convenio firmado entre las ministras de
Cultura y Defensa lleva ya 7 meses paralizado por la resistencia de
algunas Comunidades Autonómas en la participación de buques de la
Armada. De hecho, en 1999 propuso al Ministerio el Plan Nacional de
Prospección del litoral español de lo que se hizo eco el ABC, plan que
nunca llegó a iniciarse. Por ello, el principal reto de Iván
Negueruela será intensificar los trabajos del Ministerio para
desatascar el actual Plan Nacional. Negueruela es doctor en
Arqueología por la UAM. Bajo su dirección, el Museo excavó los dos
barcos fenicios de Mazarrón, se acometieron diversos proyectos
internacionales con la Unesco y con la Unión Europea y participó en la
Convención de la Unesco para la Protección del Patrimonio Marítimo
(1997-2001).

Talking about the ARQUA (National Museum of Underwater Archaeology of Spain): (Please Jeff)
LA JUSTICIA OBLIGA A CULTURA A REPONER AL DIRECTOR DEL MUSEO DE CARTAGENA
ABC- JESÚS GARCÍA CALERO | MADRID
Las tormentas que hacen naufragar las naves no tienen la última
palabra. En arqueología submarina es natural que los arqueólogos
vuelvan a la superficie con historias que contar. Algo así puede
decirse del Museo Nacional de Arqueología Marítima de Cartagena
(Arqua). Obligado por una sentencia de la Sala 6ª del Tribunal
Superior de Justicia (TSJ) de Madrid, el Ministerio de Cultura está
obligado a reponer como director a Iván Negueruela, que fue cesado de
la dirección del Arqua en enero de 2006, siendo ministra Carmen Calvo,
según ha sabido ABC de fuentes judiciales. El prestigioso arqueólogo
recurrió el cese por considerarlo ilegal y cuatro años después la
Justicia le da la razón, por lo que el Ministerio que hoy dirige
Ángeles González-Sinde ya ha dispuesto su reincorporación al cargo.
Según parece, la semana pasada un alto funcionario de Cultura se
desplazó al Museo Nacional de Cartagena para informar a los
trabajadores de la reposición de Negueruela y de que el actual
director, Rafael Azuar, originalmente funcionario de la Diputación de
Alicante, que sustituyó a Negueruela en 2006, cesó ayer, 10 de enero,
para volver a su administración de origen. Se da la circunstancia de
que la salida de Negueruela de la dirección del Museo de Cartagena
coincidió con la intensificación de las actividades de Odyssey Marine
Exploration en aguas del Estrecho.
Su reposición en el cargo coincide con el final del juicio en Tampa
contra Odyssey y con la inminente puesta en marcha del Plan Nacional
de Arqueología Subacuática. El convenio firmado entre las ministras de
Cultura y Defensa lleva ya 7 meses paralizado por la resistencia de
algunas Comunidades Autonómas en la participación de buques de la
Armada. De hecho, en 1999 propuso al Ministerio el Plan Nacional de
Prospección del litoral español de lo que se hizo eco el ABC, plan que
nunca llegó a iniciarse. Por ello, el principal reto de Iván
Negueruela será intensificar los trabajos del Ministerio para
desatascar el actual Plan Nacional. Negueruela es doctor en
Arqueología por la UAM. Bajo su dirección, el Museo excavó los dos
barcos fenicios de Mazarrón, se acometieron diversos proyectos
internacionales con la Unesco y con la Unión Europea y participó en la
Convención de la Unesco para la Protección del Patrimonio Marítimo
(1997-2001).

It just so happens the output of Negueruela from the direction of the Museum of Cartagena
coincided with the intensification of activities of Odyssey Marine Exploration in the waters of the Strait.
Others also were "output" for opposing the presence of Odyssey in the Gibraltar Strait waters.

SAQUEO EN LOS FONDOS MARINOS

Guerra al expolio submarino

España quiere blindar su costa para evitar otro robo como el ocurrido en el 'Odyssey'
 
El Correo, 18.01.10 - DANIEL PÉREZ | CÁDIZ.
 
 
Era un secreto a voces. «Sólo en el Golfo de Cádiz hay más oro que en el Banco de España», dijo hace ya dos décadas el catedrático Manuel Martín Bueno. Lo sabían aventureros como Robert Max, el arqueólogo norteamericano que cuantificó el botín hundido en la desembocadura del Guadalquivir en 116.000 millones de euros. O el investigador Gonzalo Millán del Pozo, que estima que la cifra supera los 160.000 millones. Lo tenían claro especialistas del prestigio de Javier Nieto, que denunció en los 70 que buceadores franceses venían de vacaciones a nuestro país y aprovechaban el vacío legal para saquear los fondos marinos. Y las 28 empresas que en EE UU se dedican, oficialmente, a «localizar y rescatar pecios». Lo intuían los documentalistas del Archivo de Indias, los aficionados a las inmersiones superficiales que desde los 60 acumulan colecciones particulares dignas de cualquier museo, los tasadores, los compradores y los anticuarios. El litoral era un filón, inmenso y desprotegido. Se trataba de llegar, sondear las coordenadas, cargar la botella, 'pescar' las piezas y venderlas, a ser posible, dentro de nuestras fronteras.
 
Algunos cazatesoros, como el italiano Claudio Bonifacio, hasta concedían entrevistas, y posaban tan tranquilos para la foto de primera, bronceados y con gesto intrépido, emulando a los viejos lobos de mar. Al circuito sólo le faltaban anuncios en prensa, vallas publicitarias y luces de neón. Reinaba la impunidad.
 
A mediados de los 80, el Gobierno dio los primeros y tímidos pasos para atajar el desavío, incluyendo los yacimientos submarinos en la Ley de Patrimonio Histórico. En los 90, los Centros de Arqueología Subacuática (Cataluña, Cartagena, Andalucía) se convirtieron en las primeras entidades especializadas en la investigación histórica de los fondos. Contaban con el personal mínimo y los medios justos. Pero entonces llegó el 'Odyssey', amarró en Gibraltar, con las tripas llenas de oro, y España entera se enteró de lo sencillo que podía resultar saquear 500 millones de dólares en las mismas narices de las instituciones, mientras las imágenes de dos señores barbudos y felices, rodeados de brillantes monedas, como en la mismísima cueva de Alí Babá, daban la vuelta al mundo para escarnio nacional.
 
Ninguna administración pública reconoce abiertamente que la vergonzosa resaca del 'Caso Odyssey' ha espoleado la investigación y protección del patrimonio sumergido, pero los hechos no dejan lugar a dudas. La defensa de ese caudal enfangado en el légamo de 30 siglos de historia de la navegación se mueve en dos ámbitos distintos. Mientras el Gobierno pelea en Tampa con la compleja jurisprudencia americana para ver si logra resarcirse del golpe económico y moral del 'Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes', en España se concretan nuevas leyes y se afinan otras viejas de cara a evitar que el desastre del 'Odyssey' se repita.
 
Hacer un inventario
 
Andalucía ha sido la primera comunidad autónoma en aplicar un régimen de protección jurídica a los enclaves arqueológicos subacuáticos. Son 56 'puntos calientes', a los que hay que sumar otros 42 considerados zonas de servidumbre, donde se presupone la existencia de pecios, aunque no haya evidencias científicas que lo confirmen. Su inclusión en 2009 en el Catálogo General del Patrimonio Histórico, obliga a obtener una autorización para realizar cualquier tipo de obra o intervención (construcción de gaseoductos y puertos, dragados, parques eólicos) en los parajes afectados.
 
Carmen García de Rivera, directora del Centro de Arqueología Subacuática de Cádiz, califica como «un paso de gigante, fruto de muchos años de investigaciones y esfuerzos», cuya finalidad no es exclusivamente «proteger los yacimientos de asaltos premeditados, sino también de los daños que les pueden ocasionar actividades lícitas». No obstante, reconoce que hasta el momento «sólo se ha catalogado una mínima parte del patrimonio sumergido», porque su investigación, recuperación y protección está dejando ahora de ser la hermana menor de la arqueología terrestre.
 
Su homólogo catalán Javier Nieto admite la importancia de una normativa que ayudará a «superar el retraso que, durante más de treinta años, hemos sufrido en este campo frente a países como Italia, que creó sus propias infraestructuras especializadas a finales de los 50».
 
Quedan, todavía, muchos vacíos por cubrir: en la cornisa cantábrica existen grupos de trabajo en Santander y San Sebastián, que quizá puedan ser embriones de otras realidades, y las comunidades autónomas insulares, como Canarias y Baleares, todavía carecen de centros gestionados por expertos. Nieto también avisa de que «no podía resultar completamente efectivo aplicar los mismos criterios a los yacimientos acuáticos que a los terrestres, porque el patrimonio sumergido tiene sus propias particularidades». «De entrada, el cuerpo legal de las leyes del mar no es el mismo que el de las leyes del suelo, por no hablar de la problemática técnica añadida que tiene la excavación, vigilancia y protección de estos yacimientos».
 
De ahí la aprobación, en noviembre de 2007, de un Plan Nacional de Protección del Patrimonio Arqueológico Subacuático, cuya consecuencia más mediática fue la reciente firma de un convenio entre Cultura y Defensa para que la Armada ponga a disposición de estos objetivos sus buques y unidades de buceo.
 
La batalla entre expoliadores y defensores del patrimonio sumergido ha estado siempre condicionada por una clara descompensación. Cuando, en junio de 2006, la Guardia Civil presentó el material incautado en la 'Operación Bahía', quedó patente que muy poquito podía hacerse (salvo meritorias excepciones) contra redes organizadas que utilizaban sofisticados equipos de sensores de barrido lateral, escáners que emitían ondas acústicas sensibles a los relieves del fondo marino, magnetómetros que localizaban masas de hierro, detectores de metales de uso militar y hasta dispositivos portátiles capaces de distinguir, a distancia, el oro, la plata y el bronce.
 
Los especialistas del 'Odyssey', además de con un presupuesto que ya querrían para sí muchos proyectos oficiales de localización y documentación de pecios, contaban con un prototipo de robot ROV Hércules de 16 toneladas, capaz de remover por control remoto el fondo marino y dar la señal de alarma en cuanto se topara con los primeros restos de cualquier naufragio de cierta entidad. Frente a ellos, al margen de las pesquisas que en tierra realiza la Guardia Civil (sobre todo relacionadas con la falsificación de permisos), los investigadores no tienen ni siquiera un barco propio.
 
Revolución tecnológica
 
Pero, ¿cómo se preservan los restos de un barco hundido una vez que se han localizado? La gran esperanza de los arqueólogos pasa por la aplicación de tecnología de vanguardia, como la que han desarrollado los investigadores gaditanos de Aula 3. El Proyecto Almenara pasa por ser el primer sistema global que permite «proteger cualquier pecio de bandera española, independientemente de dónde esté sumergido, de la acción de piratas o curiosos». Desde La Caleta, al Caribe. Se trata de un software específico que utiliza la comunicación satelital para «avisar a las autoridades cada vez que alguien se acerca a una determinada distancia perimetral del yacimiento localizado», según explica Antonio Villalpando, uno de los padres de la idea.
 
Otra empresa pionera en la materia es la malagueña Nerea Arqueología Subacuática, dirigida por Javier Noriega, que está embarcada en un proyecto del Servicio Marítimo de la Guardia Civil: el Sistema de Vigilancia de Yacimientos Arqueológicos Subacuáticos Por Satélite. Noriega está convencido de que «vamos a vivir una auténtica revolución en el sector, ya que las nuevas tecnologías nos ofrecen grandes posibilidades, y éste es un campo inexplorado».
 
Todo, en fin, para que la imagen de un país que vive de espaldas a la importancia de su patrimonio sumergido sea pronto parte de la historia.
 
http://www.elcorreodigital.com/vizcaya/20100118/cultura/guerra-expolio-submarino-20100118.html
 

Hey Alexandre, do you think Ecuador will allow the Almenara Project in their territorial waters? Do you think the U.S. will allow Spain to place underwater survelience systems in our waters? Why doesn't Spain just excavate their own wrecks? Then they won't have to spend a fortune trying to keep others off them.

Hey Salvor, why don't people excavate other wrecks, besides Portuguese and Spanish ones? ;)

(guess what, Spain will also be excavating - in Portuguese waters - the wrecksite of a Spanish treasure ship)

Times Article...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6999930.ece

Now, that's what I call salvage... they should dedicate themselves to that on a more permanent basis.

PORTUGUESE GALLEONS ARE WORTH MUCH MORE.

PORTUGUESE GALLEONS ARE WORTH MUCH MORE.

Odyssey would need the extra money to pay for their court costs I think they have learnt from their mistake's, have agreement's
in place first.
Ossy

... or at least, don't store all the coins in a "treasure hunter hostile" location in future. Maybe split it up between places like the Cayman Islands and other tax havens.

Examiner Article...

"The Odyssey Marine Exploration operations team has extensive experience in finding and recovering aircraft in the deep ocean. The company's marine manager is Roy Truman, whose vast experience includes serving as project manager for the recovery of the solid rocket boosters from the Space Shuttle Challenger, and leading teams during the location and recovery of aircraft parts and components of the Air India 747 crash off the coast of the Republic of Ireland in 2,000 meters of water (6,562 feet) and the South African Airways 747 crash off Mauritius in 4500 meters of water (14,763 feet). Other Odyssey team members have participated in many of the most complicated deep-ocean search and recovery operations conducted during the past 30 years."

http://www.examiner.com/x-18134-AirlinesAirport-Examiner~y2010m2d1-Ethiopian-airliner-black-boxes-elude-searchers

Black Boxes Located under the Ethiopian Plane's Tail...

http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/newsdesk.nsf/Lebanon/A6C925ADB65E60A2C22576C200276CFA?OpenDocument

John Amrhein, Jr. Article...

"For over two years Odyssey and Spain have exchanged pleadings at the courthouse. In nearly
every filing made by Spain, it has asked the court to consider the Sea Hunt case as precedent for a
number of their legal arguments. Countering Spain’s arguments, Odyssey has put forth a somewhat
novel defense to Spain’s claims of sovereign immunity. Assuming the Black Swan is the Mercedes,
they maintain that the cargo of treasure was registered mostly to private individuals and therefore
would be exempt from Spain’s claims. Descendants and legal heirs of these cargo owners filed their
own claims to the treasure. David Horan, who is representing their interests, is the veteran admiralty
attorney who, in 1982, took Mel Fisher’s claim to the Nuestra Señora de Atocha successfully through
the Supreme Court defeating the claims of Florida and the United States. After Horan made the
claim for the heirs to the treasure, Spain thought that they were in need of help. The U.S Justice
Department led by Eric Holder, a graduate of Covington & Burling, Spain’s law firm, entered the case
on the side of Spain. They again used the premise that they were there to encourage protection of
warships of other nations. In this case, they had waited two years to decide if that argument needed
to be made. In their initial filing requesting status as an amicus curiae, the U.S. cited the Sea Hunt
case three times for the benefit of Spain. At this writing, Odyssey is awaiting the final decision from
the court as to whether it will proceed with a trial or summarily grant the treasure haul to Spain. Will
this court cite the Sea Hunt case as part of its deliberations? We shall see."

http://www.thehiddengalleon.com/LaGalgaashostage.pdf

I'm dying waiting this trial be over and see all $500M of coins be back at home(Spain). I will be there to celebrate, cover a news video shooting, drink wine and see Flamenco dancer on any plaza.

I'm dying waiting this trial be over and see all $500M of coins be back at home(Spain). I will be there to celebrate, cover a news video shooting, drink wine and see Flamenco dancer on any plaza.

And if one of your ancestors had a shipment of coins on the Mercedes you would be rooting for Odyssey.   

Archcad WE will be celebrating when the coins go at auction next year at the Orlando coin show. The Flamenco dancers will be bidding.
    Jeff, according to Amrhein, he found the exact spot of the La Galga in a sand dune on shore. That means Sea Hunt found a different ship but Spain still prevented them from doing salvage work on a wreck they didn't even identify!

Archcad WE will be celebrating when the coins go at auction next year at the Orlando coin show. The Flamenco dancers will be bidding.

Salvor

Don't be stupid, you, you hunting activities and the Floridian shipwreck hunter had been bid for your own people already. Remember, I'm waiting for those coins be in auction since were found(stole) by your people(Odyssey) but still I'm waiting.  Flamenco is shown in Miami every weekend but I understand, you hate Miami like much Floridian there.

And if one of your ancestors had a shipment of coins on the Mercedes you would be rooting for Odyssey.

I'm proud of those ancestor but not for your brotherhood of theft.

Hey,..To all Odyssey advocate

Today, the King of Spain arrived in White house to meet with the president Obama, just go there and makes all proper complain about the $500M's trials, it's the best moment to do it, I wish to see there protesting Jeff K.

 

Guardian Article...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/feb/26/shipwreck-navy

From the Sub-Arch Board.

"In early February I spend two wonderful days with Greg Stemm and the Odyssey
team.  Greg is making an enormous effort to publish his work, and I felt
that his attitude makes him a player in our field, whether we like it or
not, and accepted to join him in New Orleans for the 2010's Shipwreck Track.

In the past 15 years we have been throwing tarts at each other’s faces
because we don’t have anything to discuss.  Treasure hunters’ work is often
involved in smoke – I cannot resist teasing Pete here, and his little secret
report, that only Jan-Peter “Harry Potter” Balkenende can see ).

To try to find out what THs do is difficult.  If we ask too many questions
they send us letters from their lawyers, or make threats, etc.  In the
process I learned that in the UK it is a crime “to ask malicious questions”
)  I am not kidding you: a guy with a curly wig wrote me saying exactly that.

Even when THs publish reports – and some have done it in the past, which is
a lot more than we can say for many archaeologists – it is difficult
criticize them in a scholarly way without worsening the bad blood between
us:  no matter how much they try, most treasure hunters have an antiquarian
approach, focusing on artifacts, while we aim at “reconstructing past human
activity based…” 

But now Greg has hired a bunch of competent archaeologists, who genuinely
care for the underwater cultural heritage and are willing to engage in
constructive brainstorming.

I do not agree with them on many instances and I strongly oppose what
Odyssey does, etc., but now we all know what Odyssey does, and they have
gained the right to ask archaeologists for their reports, and their ethics,
and their little clans, and the legitimacy of their little clan’s mandarins,
and their little secrets, and their little tribal wars… 

I am looking forward to be a cheerful participant in these discussions, as
always, and I think that this time we may actually be doing something
constructive: we need standards (the Annex of the UNESCO Convention is a
good starting point).

Odyssey is raising the standards!  This is going to be funny to watch. )

Filipe Castro"

Filipe is going through a midlife crisis...

It is clear to me that the ONLY reason Spain is interested in this wreck , or any of the others, is because there is treasure aboard. Treasure that can be converted into MONEY! There is NO cultural or historical value here. So all you bleeding hearts, and you know who you are, have absolutely no reason to celebrate the loss of treasure to the finder. I still stand on the position that if given the opportunity and the means, that all of us serious treasure hunters are better equipped than the state archaeologists to hunt for and salvage old wrecks. Let's have a little game here. How many wrecks have the archaeologists found? How many wrecks have the treasure hunters found?
Who has donated the most treasure and artifacts to the state and various museums? Who has enlightened the world to submerged history? I GUARANTY YOU it was NOT the archaeological community! The archaeologists have contributed greatly, but only after someone else has made the discovery. So get off your arrogant High Horse!
...Aquanut

It is clear to me that the ONLY reason Spain is interested in this wreck , or any of the others, is because there is treasure aboard. Treasure that can be converted into MONEY! There is NO cultural or historical value here. So all you bleeding hearts, and you know who you are, have absolutely no reason to celebrate the loss of treasure to the finder. I still stand on the position that if given the opportunity and the means, that all of us serious treasure hunters are better equipped than the state archaeologists to hunt for and salvage old wrecks. Let's have a little game here. How many wrecks have the archaeologists found? How many wrecks have the treasure hunters found?
Who has donated the most treasure and artifacts to the state and various museums? Who has enlightened the world to submerged history? I GUARANTY YOU it was NOT the archaeological community! The archaeologists have contributed greatly, but only after someone else has made the discovery. So get off your arrogant High Horse!
...Aquanut

Aquanut, I agree with you about "some" of the archaeologists. The underwater archeology is poor, no money but plenty of laws (would be interesting to make a nice museum of laws). The problem is that UNESCO suggests to have the money to start and finish projects, but no money. It's like the snake biting its tail.
About Odyssey, they planted storm and now we see all the results. And this can not be denied. They razed and alarmed institutions, universities, UNESCO, the international community of archaeologists giving weapons where and when did not. Have aroused the sleeping lion. Nice work for treasure hunters.
Cheers VV

O.K.
So you think Odyessy was wrong. I think they knew as soon as Spain got wind of "TREASURE" that they were going to have a problem. I would have done exactly what they did. Spain, nor anyone else, for that matter has claim to unidentified treasure. The ship was not in evidence and until treasure is brought to the surface, who in the hell can determine its source. I also disagree with these laws of late where governments can lay broad claims and step in to make a salvor look like a criminal.
By the Way... I don't see where Universities, Museums, UNESCO, Institutions or archaeologists should concern themselves over a bunch of coins with the same date on them. Where is the cultural/historical value? Is it perhaps in the repetitive artwork on the coins?
Aquanut

Voc, Odyssey was not, and is not wrong! I would have done the same...

Tom

O.K.
So you think Odyessy was wrong. I think they knew as soon as Spain got wind of "TREASURE" that they were going to have a problem. I would have done exactly what they did. Spain, nor anyone else, for that matter has claim to unidentified treasure. The ship was not in evidence and until treasure is brought to the surface, who in the hell can determine its source. I also disagree with these laws of late where governments can lay broad claims and step in to make a salvor look like a criminal.
By the Way... I don't see where Universities, Museums, UNESCO, Institutions or archaeologists should concern themselves over a bunch of coins with the same date on them. Where is the cultural/historical value? Is it perhaps in the repetitive artwork on the coins?
Aquanut

Aquanut,
Time will show that the big boss of Odyssey are wolves in sheep.
The "big move" began with the subject JUNO / GALGA, who was the first step. Strangely enough scratch every nugget of gold from the bowels of the earth with many sacrifices (I've been in many mining camps in Bolivia, Peru, Paraguay, etc.). But knowing that there are 125,000 tons of gold from shipwrecks on the bottom of the sea nothing is done!
From 1998-2005 TH hardly work in Florida. NPS, archaeologists, Spain, Bolivia, Peru, descendants, all claim an ounce of gold. What happened from 1998-2005? JUNO / GALGA and Odyssey.
This is a reality, like it or not.

Italy, Greece, and another... what would that be... hmmm, oh yes, Spain!  All in the Euro tank at the moment, being 'underwater' (pardon the pun) with their national debt.  Let's see now... hmmm...  yes the United States as well!  Then there's the rest of the European Union who don't think much of bailing us out.  Good for them.  They are coming to their senses.  So here is a pot of money, lying on the sea floor, but what part of the sea floor?  Is it England's sea floor, or Spain's sea floor?  OR maybe Portugal's sea floor.  And, its not phoney greenbacks... its real SILVER, with real VALUE! The whole Black Swan issue is a macro-cosmic stage of current political events at the global level.

There would be no argument on this Black Swan issue if it were not for the moronic progressives currently running the criminal enterprise in Washington.  Were it not for them, the constructive abandonment of the wreck in international waters would already be recognized by American courts and the salvage would be divied up by Odyssey and they would be on to bigger things. 

It will change.  The European Union will come apart for the sake of a few dollars, UNESCO will fade from the North American continent, the NPS will be relegated to mowing lawns and feeding the bears, the Chinese will own the Smithsonian and Greg Stemm will be selling bulk silver to them. At the moment, what you have is all of us working folks (that would be the salvage community) being plucked from the top and the bottom.

How many wrecks have the archaeologists found? How many wrecks have the treasure hunters found?
Who has donated the most treasure and artifacts to the state and various museums? Who has enlightened the world to submerged history? I GUARANTY YOU it was NOT the archaeological community! The archaeologists have contributed greatly, but only after someone else has made the discovery. So get off your arrogant High Horse!
...Aquanut

Aquanut, here are the wrecks I have found so far:

1) Angra A (late 19th century)
2) Angra B (mid-16th century)
3) Angra C (mid 17th century)
4) Angra D (late 16th century)
5) Nossa Senhora da Luz (1615)
6) HMS Pallas (1782)
7) l'Astrée (1796)
Lidador (1878)
9) Caroline (1901)

also, I have pinpointed the location of 4 other wrecks, which I intend to find in the near future: a Spanish galleon (1589), a VOC treasure ship (1626) and a french/spanish brig (1783).

Tell me: how many wrecks have you found so far? ;)

Alexandre, I have found two, both unidentified. However, the limitations of my personal budget shouldn't be of any concern to you.
Did you find your wrecks yourself, or with the help of the private community?
Aquanut

Besides Lidador, which was sitting on the middle of a bay (unidentified and undated), all other were found by careful archival research and a lot of eyeballing.

The finding of the "Nossa Senhora da Luz", a Portuguese Eastindiaman, for example, took me almost 4 years (I was really searching intensively for it, though).

If yours are still unidentified, to what period do they belong to?

Filipe Castro was one of the biggest critics of commercial treasure hunters. Now he is coming to his senses. After seeing the quality of the archaeological work that Odyssey is doing he cannot find a fault. Thats the future of shipwreck salvage and institutional archaeologists should take note. Odyssey employs more archaeologists than INA, they publish papers for the people to see and they display artifacts to the public. After all, its the peoples cultural heritage.

Alexandre, how many artifacts from those wrecks are in your private collection?

Alexandre
If you have found all these wrecks and you are a archaeologist, then I am sure you have photographed everything and have reports on everything you have recovered, or have you recovered or learned anything? Publishing your photos and reports here on tnet will actually give you some credibility.
Seahunter

Alexandre, I'm not at liberty to disclose any further information on these finds to satisfy either my ego or your curiousity. There are others to consider and since we aren't funded or salaried by the state and the state has proven it will not issue permits, those wrecks will remain "unknown".
Aquanut

Alexandre, to answer one of your questions to Filipe: "will Odyssey excavate any wrecks without treasure?" They already have. Thats the problem with archies that criticize without doing their research.
   In 2003 Odyssey found a 19th century wreck off the coast of Florida filled with ceramics. Two years later they visited the site again and were appaled at the destruction that trawling nets did. Odyssey decided to perform "rescue archaeology" of the wreck and it is ALL on display at their museum. NOT ONE PIECE WAS SOLD! It is known as the blue china wreck if you have not heard.

About Odyssey, they planted storm and now we see all the results. And this can not be denied. They razed and alarmed institutions, universities, UNESCO, the international community of archaeologists giving weapons where and when did not. Have aroused the sleeping lion. Nice work for treasure hunters.
Cheers VV

Well, I've been over the Odyssey presence in Spain for a long time and I didn't see they alarmed or razed all those institutions. What I've seen was a kind of organised group of people alarming with the presence of Odyssey in Spain. This group (actually three or four persons) went to the media to be the stars of the day. They didn't care about saying the truth or lying loud and clear (about the position where Odyssey found the Black Swan, showing a photograph with a coin in a hand that was taken from an old web page assuring it was taken at the Gibraltar airport, etc, etc). And I think they make this big noise trying to hide something else on they where involved and that has something to do with a wild treasure hunting on the Cadiz Bay, but this is just a theory I cant prove at this moment. Odyssey didn't give any weapon to anybody. The real weapons were aboard other boat that has nothing to do with Odyssey and a lot to do with the noisy group that spent a lot of time and energy pointing at Odyssey trying to cover with a mist a real case of looting.

Alexandre, how many artifacts from those wrecks are in your private collection?

None. I am not a collector.

[Scientific papers]

Alexandre
If you have found all these wrecks and you are a archaeologist, then I am sure you have photographed everything and have reports on everything you have recovered, or have you recovered or learned anything? Publishing your photos and reports here on tnet will actually give you some credibility.
Seahunter

Sure thing.


Scientific papers


1) GARCIA, Catarina & MONTEIRO, Paulo (1998) "Intervenção de Emergência na Baía de Angra do Heroísmo” in Al-madan, II série, nº 7, 1998. Centro de Arqueologia de Almada, pp. 126 e 128.

2) ALVES, Francisco & MONTEIRO, Paulo (1999) "Arqueologia Subaquática" in MATOS, Artur ed. Enciclopédia Açoriana. Lisboa: Centro de Estudos dos Povos e Culturas de Expressão Portuguesa/Universidade Católica, p. 87.

3) ALVES, Francisco, GARCIA, Catarina & MONTEIRO, Paulo (1999) "Estratégias e metodologias da intervenção arqueológica subaquática no quadro do projecto da construção de uma marina na baía de Angra do Heroísmo (Terceira, Açores)" in Revista Portuguesa de Arqueologia, vol. 2, nº 2. Lisboa: Instituto Português de Arqueologia, pp. 199-210.

4) GARCIA, Catarina, MONTEIRO, Paulo & PHANEUF, Erik (1999) "Os destroços dos navios Angra C e D descobertos durante a intervenção arqueológica subaquática realizada no quadro do projecto da construção de uma marina na baía de Angra do Heroísmo (Terceira, Açores)" in Revista Portuguesa de Arqueologia, vol. 2, nº 2. Lisboa: Instituto Português de Arqueologia, pp. 211-232.

5) MONTEIRO, Paulo (1999) "Os destroços dos navios Angra C e D descobertos durante a intervenção arqueológica subaquática realizada no quadro do projecto da construção de uma marina na baía de Angra do Heroísmo (Terceira, Açores). Discussão preliminar" in Revista
Portuguesa de Arqueologia, vol. 2, nº 2. Lisboa: Instituto Português de Arqueologia, pp. 233- 261.

6) MONTEIRO, Paulo (2000) "Carta Arqueológica Subaquática dos Açores: metodologia, utilização e resultados na gestão do património cultural subaquático" in Actas do 3º Congresso de Arqueologia Peninsular, vol. VIII. Porto: ADECAP/Universidade de Trás-os-Montes, pp. 497-523.

7) MONTEIRO, Paulo (2000) "Angra D: the survey, excavation and dismantling of an Iberian seagoing ship (Azores, Portugal)" in Proceedings of the 33rd Conference on Historical and Underwater Archaeology. Society for Historical Archaeology, 4 a 9 de Janeiro de 2000, Quebec City.

MONTEIRO, Paulo (2000) "The expansion of the North African corsair activity from the Mediterranean into the Azores islands and the Atlantic in the early 17th century: fear, loath and naval war" in Proceedings of the 8th International Congress on Graeco-Oriental and African
Studies. Atenas: Institute for Graeco-Oriental and African Studies.

9) MONTEIRO, Paulo (2000) "The Azores underwater cultural heritage: strategies, surveys, excavations and results (1995-2000)" in Proceedings of the 6th Annual Meeting of the European Association of Archaeologists. Lisboa: European Association of Archaeologists.

10) MONTEIRO, Paulo (2000) "A perda do galeão São Pantaleão (1651): um naufrágio da Companhia Geral do Comércio do Brasil nos Açores" in As ilhas e o Brasil - Actas do VI Colóquio Internacional das Ilhas Atlânticas. Funchal: Centro de Estudos de História do Atlântico/Secretaria Regional do Turismo e Cultura, pp. 215-240.

11) GARCIA, Catarina & MONTEIRO, Paulo (2001), "The excavation and dismantling of Angra D, a probable Iberian seagoing ship, Angra bay, Terceira Island, Azores, Portugal. Preliminary assessment" in Alves, F., ed., Proceedings of the International Symposium on Archaeology of Medieval and Modern Ships of Iberian-Atlantic Tradition – Hull remains, manuscripts and ethnographic sources: a comparative approach (Lisboa, 7-9 de Setembro de 1998). Trabalhos de Arqueologia, 18: 431-447. Instituto Português de Arqueologia, Lisboa.

12) MONTEIRO, Paulo, PINHEIRO, Sérgio & ALVES, Francisco (2007) "Arade 23: arqueografia preliminar de um naufrágio estuarino" in Xelb 8 (2008) - Actas do 5º Encontro de Arqueologia do Algarve. Câmara Municipal de Silves, pp. 355-363.

13) MONTEIRO, Paulo, PINHEIRO, Sérgio & ALVES, Francisco (2007) "Arade 23: a arqueografia de um naufrágio através de Site Recorder 4: problemática e metodologia" in Congresso de Aplicações Informáticas à Arqueologia – CAAPortugal 2007. Leiria: Associação para o Desenvolvimento das Aplicações Informáticas e Novas Tecnologias Aplicadas à Arqueologia, 2008.

14) MONTEIRO, Paulo (2007), "O naufrágio do vapor Lidador na ilha Terceira, Açores (1878):relatório preliminar", in Al-madan, II série, nº 15, 2007, Adenda electrónica. Centro de Arqueologia de Almada, pp.1-2.

15) MONTEIRO, Paulo (2007), "Canhões na Roca: Análise Preliminar de um Conjunto Submerso de Peças de Artilharia", in Al-madan, II série, nº 15, 2007. Centro de Arqueologia de Almada, pp. 158-160.

16) MONTEIRO, Paulo (2008) “Rotas, escalas e comércio: proposta teórica para um modelo de navegação Ibero-atlântica na Antiguidade” in Actas do Encontro de História do Alentejo Litoral (Sines), Centro Cultural Emmerico Nunes, 2008.

17) MONTEIRO, Paulo & PINHEIRO, Sérgio (2008) “O naufrágio da Nuestra Señora del Rosário (1589): uma nau da prata perdida nas costas de Tróia” in Actas do Encontro de História do Alentejo Litoral (Sines), Centro Cultural Emmerico Nunes, 2008.

18) MONTEIRO, Paulo (2008) “Da nota de rodapé ao monte de lastro: naufrágios ibéricos na área dos Açores (1526-1906)”, in Symposium Os Naufrágios Portugueses e Espanhóis no Arquipélago dos Açores/Naufragios de Buques Españoles y Portugueses en el Archipiélago de
las Azores, co-organizado pelas Academia de Marinha e Fundácion Iberoamericana para el Fomento de la Cultura y Ciencias del Mar. Lisboa, 04 a 07 de Novembro de 2008, pp. 43-97.

19) ALVES, Francisco, MONTEIRO, Paulo & PINHEIRO, Sérgio (2008) Relatório da campanha de arqueografia preliminar dos destroços do navio Arade 23. Trabalhos da DANS nº 44. Lisboa: Instituto de Gestão do Património Arquitectónico e Arqueológico (IGESPAR)/Divisão de
Arqueologia Náutica e Subaquática (DANS).

20) ALVES, Francisco & MONTEIRO, Paulo (2009) Assessment on the Arade 23 wreck site: 2007-2008. in MANDERS, Martijn et al eds. MACHU (Managing Cultural Heritage Underwater: a maritime research project funded by the European Union Culture 2000 Programme) num. 2. Rotterdam: Educom Publishers BV, pp. 16-17.

21) MONTEIRO, Paulo (2009) “O naufrágio do navio da VOC Schoonhoven na costa de Melides, Grândola (1626)” in Actas do 1º Encontro de Arqueologia e História de Alcácer do Sal: Tributo a João Faria (22, 23 e 24 de Maio de 2009). Alcácer do Sal: Câmara de Alcácer do Sal, no prelo.

22) MONTEIRO, Paulo (2009) “O afundamento do galeão da frota do Brasil São Francisco pela esquadra inglesa do Parlamento (Sesimbra, 1650)” in Actas do II Encontro de História do Alentejo Litoral (Sines), Centro Cultural Emmerico Nunes, 2009.


Reports

Projecto de Intervenção Arqueológica Subaquática Preventiva e de Emergência na baía de Angra do Heroísmo (1995), MAH (Museu de Angra do Heroísmo).

Relatório Preliminar sobre a Recuperação de uma Boca de Fogo Quinhentista (1996), MAH.

Intervenção Arqueológica Subaquática na baía de Angra: Relatório Preliminar, em co-autoria com GARCIA, Catarina (1996), MAH.

Intervenção Arqueológica Subaquática na baía de Angra: Relatório Final, em co-autoria com GARCIA, Catarina (1996), MAH.

Intervenção Arqueológica Subaquática em Santa Cruz das Flores: Relatório Preliminar. (1997), MAH.

Projecto de Posicionamento e Inventariação das Âncoras do Monte Brasil. (1997), MAH.

Projecto de Intervenção Arqueológica Subaquática. Fragata L'Astrée (1796), Ilha do Pico, Açores. (1998), CNANS.

Projecto de Intervenção Arqueológica Subaquática Prospectiva de Emergência na baía da Horta, Ilha do Faial, Açores. (1999), CNANS.

Intervenção Arqueológica Subaquática Prospectiva de Emergência na baía da Horta, Ilha do Faial, Açores: Relatório Final. (1999), CNANS.

O naufrágio da nau da Carreira da Índia Nossa Senhora da Luz (1615): caracterização histórico-arqueológica (1999), CNANS.

Carta Arqueológica Subaquática dos Açores: metodologia e sua aplicação prática (1999), DRC (Direcção Regional de Cultura, Açores):

Projecto de Implementação de Reservas Arqueológicas Subaquáticas na Região Autónoma dos Açores (2000), DRC.

Intervenção Arqueológica Subaquática de Emergência na baía da Calheta, Ilha de São Jorge, Açores. Fragata HMS Pallas (1783): relatório preliminar. (1999), DRC.

Análise preliminar do conjunto de peças de artilharia submersas na Baixa do Broeiro, Cabo da Roca. (2007)

Public Presentations

Incentivos ao uso da arqueologia subaquática nas nossas escolas. Seminário Os Oceanos e a Escola, Programa Oceanofilia, EXPO'98, 14 a 15 de Novembro de 1995, Estoril

A arqueologia subaquática nos Açores. 11º Encontro Nacional de Mergulho, 1 de Março de 1996, Ponta Delgada

A arqueologia subaquática nos Açores e a sua importância para as ilhas do Grupo Ocidental. Museu das Flores, 1 e 2 de Agosto de 1997, Santa Cruz das Flores

A arqueologia subaquática nos Açores. Escola Preparatória C+S de Angra do Heroísmo, 5 de Novembro de 1997.

A arqueologia subaquática nos Açores e a sua importância para as ilhas do Grupo Central Museu de São Jorge, 25 e 26 de Novembro de 2000, Calheta de São Jorge.

Os Açores na encruzilhada da rota da prata e das riquezas do Novo Mundo: naufrágios, batalhas, mitos, história e lendas. EGEAC/Câmara Municipal de Lisboa - DANS-IGESPAR, 3 de Novembro de 2007, Padrão dos Descobrimentos, Lisboa


Diving and generic magazine and newspaper articles



“O que é a Arqueologia?”, A União, 25 de Novembro de 1995

“O que não é a Arqueologia Subaquática?”, A União, 02 de Dezembro de 1995

“A Armada da VOC no Faial em 1673”, A União, 16 e 23 de Dezembro de 1995

“O império espanhol e a sua articulação naval com o Novo Mundo”, A União, 06 de Janeiro de 1996

“A intervenção arqueológica de urgência na baía de Angra do Heroísmo”, A União, 13 de Janeiro de 1996

“A iniquidade do Dec-Lei 289/93 e a defesa dos interesses dos Açores”, A União, 20 de Janeiro de 1996

“O naufrágio do galeão São Pantaleão em Água de Pau, São Miguel”, A União, 27 de Janeiro de 1996

“A documentação histórica de naufrágios”, A União, 03 de Fevereiro de 1996

“O naufrágio do vapor Lidador”, A União, 10 de Fevereiro de 1996

“INA - o Institute of Nautical Archaeology nos Açores”, A União, 17 de Fevereiro de 1996

“O naufrágio do Slavonia na ilha das Flores”, A União, 24 de Fevereiro de 1996

“A insuportável leveza da lei e a defesa dos interesses dos Açores”, Notícias do Mar, Março de 1996

“A jazida arqueológica de Aveiro A”, A União, 9 de Março de 1996

“O equívoco do C.S.S. Alabama”, A União, 23 de Março de 1996

“Um naufrágio da Carreira das Índias”, A União, 23 de Março de 1996

“A protecção jurídica do património cultural subaquático”, A União, 30 de Março de 1996

“Baía de Angra - uma intervenção inadiável”, Notícias do Mar, Abril de 1996

“O mergulho na Arqueologia”, A União, 06 e 13 de Abril de 1996

“Anatomia de um naufrágio”, A União, 20 de Abril de 1996

“O mito do ouro espanhol na paragem do Corvo”, A União, 27 de Abril de 1996

“O naufrágio do São Pantaleão”, Notícias do Mar, Maio de 1996

“Uma caçada real”, A União, 04 de Maio de 1996

“E se falássemos de património?”, A União, 11 de Maio de 1996

“A prospecção electrónica em Arqueologia”, A União, 18 de Maio de 1996

“Uma ilha à venda?”, A União, 25 de Maio de 1996

“O naufrágio do navio espanhol Poderoso”, A União, 01 de Junho de 1996

“A conservação do património submerso”, A União, 08 de Junho de 1996

“Portos e ancoradouros da ilha Terceira”, A União, 15 de Junho de 1996

“O naufrágio da nau Chagas”, A União, 22 de Junho de 1996

“Os naufrágios da Baía de Angra”, A União, 29 de Junho de 1996

“O pioneirismo de Baptista de Lima”, A União, 06 de Julho de 1996

“A artilharia em Arqueologia”, A União, 20 de Julho de 1996

“O naufrágio do Padre António Vieira”, A União, 24 de Agosto de 1996

“Os naufrágios do ouro do Brasil””, A União, 31 de Agosto de 1996

“A prospecção nas baías de Angra”, A União, 7 de Setembro de 1996

“Os navios do descobrimento dos Açores”, A União, 14 de Setembro de 1996

“O turismo e o património subaquático”, A União, 21 de Setembro de 1996

“Dois naufrágios da Restauração”, A União, 28 de Setembro de 1996

“Jewels in the midst of lava coral”, Revista de bordo SATA-Air Açores, Inverno 1996

“Naufrágios na Baía de Angra”, Mundo Submerso Magazine, nº 4, Outubro de 1996

“A Lex Rhodia”, A União, 12 de Outubro de 1996

“À Flor do Mar”, A União, 19 de Outubro de 1996

“A New Era”, A União, 26 de Outubro de 1996

“O potencial arqueológico da baía de Angra”, Notícias do Mar, Outubro de 1996

“A prospecção em Arqueologia Subaquática”, Notícias do Mar, Novembro de 1996

“Baía de Angra - reserva arqueológica?”, A União, 2 e 9 de Novembro de 1996

“Naufrágios de São Jorge”, A União, 16 de Novembro de 1996

“Naufrágios do Pico e da Graciosa”, A União, 30 de Novembro de 1996

“As ilhas dos tesouros”, Notícias do Mar, Dezembro de 1996

“Naufrágios do Faial”, A União, 7 de Dezembro de 1996

“Naufrágios de São Miguel”, A União, 21 de Dezembro de 1996

“O afundamento do l’Océan”, A União, 22 e 28 de Fevereiro de 1997

“O naufrágio do Run’Her e a Guerra Civil Americana”, A União, 8 de Março de 1997

“A conservação do património submerso”, Notícias do Mar, Março de 1997

“Métodos de datação de naufrágios”, A União, 22 de Março de 1997

“Angra e o seu porto”, A União, 29 de Março de 1997

“A pilhagem do Porto Santo”, A União, 19 de Abril de 1997

“A nova lei da arqueologia subaquática”, A União, 26 de Abril de 1997

“Marinas e arqueologia”, Diário Insular, 26 de Abril de 1997

“1591 - O Revenge”, A União, 3 de Maio de 1997

“1591 - As frotas espanholas”, A União, 10 de Maio de 1997

“1591 - A batalha naval”, A União, 17 de Maio de 1997

“1591 - A tempestade e os naufrágios”, A União, 24 de Maio de 1997

“O ‘cemitério’ das âncoras”, A União, 31 de Maio de 1997

“As naus da Carreira das Índias”, A União, 21 de Junho de 1997

“O afundamento do U-581”, A União, 28 de Junho de 1997

“O naufrágio da fragata Astrea”, A União, 5 de Julho de 1997

“O naufrágio da barca Bidart”, A União, 12 de Julho de 1997

“O naufrágio do bergantim John”, A União, 26 de Julho de 1997

“O naufrágio da barca Brillant nas Flores”, A União, 9 de Agosto de 1997

“Estrelas e astrolábios”, A União, 20 de Setembro de 1997

“A UNESCO e os naufrágios profundos”, A União, 27 de Setembro de 1997

“O naufrágio da Nuestra Señora de las Angustias y San Jose”, A União, 4 de Outubro de 1997

“O naufrágio do Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes”, A União, 11 de Outubro de 1997

“Corsários argentinos nos Açores”, A União, 25 de Outubro de 1997

“Os destroços de ANGRA B”, A União, 15 de Novembro de 1997

“Dois naufrágios quatrocentistas em Angra”, A União, 22 de Novembro de 1997

“Moçambique a saque?”, A União, 24 de Janeiro de 1998

“Às bombas”, A União, 31 de Janeiro de 1998

“Expedição às Flores”, A União, 21 de Fevereiro de 1998

“Naufrágios brasileiros e turismo subaquático”, A União, 14 de Março de 1998

“ O naufrágio do galeão Sacramento (1668)”, A União, 21 de Março de 1998

“A construção naval portuguesa”, A União, de 3 e 11 de Abril de 1998

“Uma análise preliminar do naufrágio ANGRA D”, A União, 18 de Abril de 1998

“A conservação de madeiras encharcadas”, A União, 24 de Abril de 1998

Also, some of my papers are online, here:

http://independent.academia.edu/AlexandreMonteiro

About Odyssey, they planted storm and now we see all the results. And this can not be denied. They razed and alarmed institutions, universities, UNESCO, the international community of archaeologists giving weapons where and when did not. Have aroused the sleeping lion. Nice work for treasure hunters.
Cheers VV

Well, I've been over the Odyssey presence in Spain for a long time and I didn't see they alarmed or razed all those institutions. What I've seen was a kind of organised group of people alarming with the presence of Odyssey in Spain. This group (actually three or four persons) went to the media to be the stars of the day. They didn't care about saying the truth or lying loud and clear (about the position where Odyssey found the Black Swan, showing a photograph with a coin in a hand that was taken from an old web page assuring it was taken at the Gibraltar airport, etc, etc). And I think they make this big noise trying to hide something else on they where involved and that has something to do with a wild treasure hunting on the Cadiz Bay, but this is just a theory I cant prove at this moment. Odyssey didn't give any weapon to anybody. The real weapons were aboard other boat that has nothing to do with Odyssey and a lot to do with the noisy group that spent a lot of time and energy pointing at Odyssey trying to cover with a mist a real case of looting.

Trinidad,
about Odyssey was evidence that lied. When asserted that an agreement was reached with the Government of Andalucia (Junta de Andalucia) those issued a press release denying. When they said they were "working" with the Odyssey Explorer, Pipe Sarmiento took a picture seeing that was docked. To prove he used a newspaper of Gibraltar becoming clear that they were "not working" and they were lying. He later published this photo.
Luckily there is abundant documentation of this and in previous investigations orchestrated by the police operation to sweep these people, many gory details, including precisely, since 2005 it was negotiating with Spanish and Portuguese institutional support, to recover the Mercedes with the Spanish Ministry of Culture. I repeat, about all this there is abundant documentation that is very telling not mere baseless gossip.

[Scientific papers]

Alexandre
If you have found all these wrecks and you are a archaeologist, then I am sure you have photographed everything and have reports on everything you have recovered, or have you recovered or learned anything? Publishing your photos and reports here on tnet will actually give you some credibility.
Seahunter

Sure thing.


Scientific papers


1) GARCIA, Catarina & MONTEIRO, Paulo (1998) "Intervenção de Emergência na Baía de Angra do Heroísmo” in Al-madan, II série, nº 7, 1998. Centro de Arqueologia de Almada, pp. 126 e 128.

2) ALVES, Francisco & MONTEIRO, Paulo (1999) "Arqueologia Subaquática" in MATOS, Artur ed. Enciclopédia Açoriana. Lisboa: Centro de Estudos dos Povos e Culturas de Expressão Portuguesa/Universidade Católica, p. 87.

3) ALVES, Francisco, GARCIA, Catarina & MONTEIRO, Paulo (1999) "Estratégias e metodologias da intervenção arqueológica subaquática no quadro do projecto da construção de uma marina na baía de Angra do Heroísmo (Terceira, Açores)" in Revista Portuguesa de Arqueologia, vol. 2, nº 2. Lisboa: Instituto Português de Arqueologia, pp. 199-210.

4) GARCIA, Catarina, MONTEIRO, Paulo & PHANEUF, Erik (1999) "Os destroços dos navios Angra C e D descobertos durante a intervenção arqueológica subaquática realizada no quadro do projecto da construção de uma marina na baía de Angra do Heroísmo (Terceira, Açores)" in Revista Portuguesa de Arqueologia, vol. 2, nº 2. Lisboa: Instituto Português de Arqueologia, pp. 211-232.

5) MONTEIRO, Paulo (1999) "Os destroços dos navios Angra C e D descobertos durante a intervenção arqueológica subaquática realizada no quadro do projecto da construção de uma marina na baía de Angra do Heroísmo (Terceira, Açores). Discussão preliminar" in Revista
Portuguesa de Arqueologia, vol. 2, nº 2. Lisboa: Instituto Português de Arqueologia, pp. 233- 261.

6) MONTEIRO, Paulo (2000) "Carta Arqueológica Subaquática dos Açores: metodologia, utilização e resultados na gestão do património cultural subaquático" in Actas do 3º Congresso de Arqueologia Peninsular, vol. VIII. Porto: ADECAP/Universidade de Trás-os-Montes, pp. 497-523.

7) MONTEIRO, Paulo (2000) "Angra D: the survey, excavation and dismantling of an Iberian seagoing ship (Azores, Portugal)" in Proceedings of the 33rd Conference on Historical and Underwater Archaeology. Society for Historical Archaeology, 4 a 9 de Janeiro de 2000, Quebec City.

MONTEIRO, Paulo (2000) "The expansion of the North African corsair activity from the Mediterranean into the Azores islands and the Atlantic in the early 17th century: fear, loath and naval war" in Proceedings of the 8th International Congress on Graeco-Oriental and African
Studies. Atenas: Institute for Graeco-Oriental and African Studies.

9) MONTEIRO, Paulo (2000) "The Azores underwater cultural heritage: strategies, surveys, excavations and results (1995-2000)" in Proceedings of the 6th Annual Meeting of the European Association of Archaeologists. Lisboa: European Association of Archaeologists.

10) MONTEIRO, Paulo (2000) "A perda do galeão São Pantaleão (1651): um naufrágio da Companhia Geral do Comércio do Brasil nos Açores" in As ilhas e o Brasil - Actas do VI Colóquio Internacional das Ilhas Atlânticas. Funchal: Centro de Estudos de História do Atlântico/Secretaria Regional do Turismo e Cultura, pp. 215-240.

11) GARCIA, Catarina & MONTEIRO, Paulo (2001), "The excavation and dismantling of Angra D, a probable Iberian seagoing ship, Angra bay, Terceira Island, Azores, Portugal. Preliminary assessment" in Alves, F., ed., Proceedings of the International Symposium on Archaeology of Medieval and Modern Ships of Iberian-Atlantic Tradition – Hull remains, manuscripts and ethnographic sources: a comparative approach (Lisboa, 7-9 de Setembro de 1998). Trabalhos de Arqueologia, 18: 431-447. Instituto Português de Arqueologia, Lisboa.

12) MONTEIRO, Paulo, PINHEIRO, Sérgio & ALVES, Francisco (2007) "Arade 23: arqueografia preliminar de um naufrágio estuarino" in Xelb 8 (2008) - Actas do 5º Encontro de Arqueologia do Algarve. Câmara Municipal de Silves, pp. 355-363.

13) MONTEIRO, Paulo, PINHEIRO, Sérgio & ALVES, Francisco (2007) "Arade 23: a arqueografia de um naufrágio através de Site Recorder 4: problemática e metodologia" in Congresso de Aplicações Informáticas à Arqueologia – CAAPortugal 2007. Leiria: Associação para o Desenvolvimento das Aplicações Informáticas e Novas Tecnologias Aplicadas à Arqueologia, 2008.

14) MONTEIRO, Paulo (2007), "O naufrágio do vapor Lidador na ilha Terceira, Açores (1878):relatório preliminar", in Al-madan, II série, nº 15, 2007, Adenda electrónica. Centro de Arqueologia de Almada, pp.1-2.

15) MONTEIRO, Paulo (2007), "Canhões na Roca: Análise Preliminar de um Conjunto Submerso de Peças de Artilharia", in Al-madan, II série, nº 15, 2007. Centro de Arqueologia de Almada, pp. 158-160.

16) MONTEIRO, Paulo (2008) “Rotas, escalas e comércio: proposta teórica para um modelo de navegação Ibero-atlântica na Antiguidade” in Actas do Encontro de História do Alentejo Litoral (Sines), Centro Cultural Emmerico Nunes, 2008.

17) MONTEIRO, Paulo & PINHEIRO, Sérgio (2008) “O naufrágio da Nuestra Señora del Rosário (1589): uma nau da prata perdida nas costas de Tróia” in Actas do Encontro de História do Alentejo Litoral (Sines), Centro Cultural Emmerico Nunes, 2008.

18) MONTEIRO, Paulo (2008) “Da nota de rodapé ao monte de lastro: naufrágios ibéricos na área dos Açores (1526-1906)”, in Symposium Os Naufrágios Portugueses e Espanhóis no Arquipélago dos Açores/Naufragios de Buques Españoles y Portugueses en el Archipiélago de
las Azores, co-organizado pelas Academia de Marinha e Fundácion Iberoamericana para el Fomento de la Cultura y Ciencias del Mar. Lisboa, 04 a 07 de Novembro de 2008, pp. 43-97.

19) ALVES, Francisco, MONTEIRO, Paulo & PINHEIRO, Sérgio (2008) Relatório da campanha de arqueografia preliminar dos destroços do navio Arade 23. Trabalhos da DANS nº 44. Lisboa: Instituto de Gestão do Património Arquitectónico e Arqueológico (IGESPAR)/Divisão de
Arqueologia Náutica e Subaquática (DANS).

20) ALVES, Francisco & MONTEIRO, Paulo (2009) Assessment on the Arade 23 wreck site: 2007-2008. in MANDERS, Martijn et al eds. MACHU (Managing Cultural Heritage Underwater: a maritime research project funded by the European Union Culture 2000 Programme) num. 2. Rotterdam: Educom Publishers BV, pp. 16-17.

21) MONTEIRO, Paulo (2009) “O naufrágio do navio da VOC Schoonhoven na costa de Melides, Grândola (1626)” in Actas do 1º Encontro de Arqueologia e História de Alcácer do Sal: Tributo a João Faria (22, 23 e 24 de Maio de 2009). Alcácer do Sal: Câmara de Alcácer do Sal, no prelo.

22) MONTEIRO, Paulo (2009) “O afundamento do galeão da frota do Brasil São Francisco pela esquadra inglesa do Parlamento (Sesimbra, 1650)” in Actas do II Encontro de História do Alentejo Litoral (Sines), Centro Cultural Emmerico Nunes, 2009.


Reports

Projecto de Intervenção Arqueológica Subaquática Preventiva e de Emergência na baía de Angra do Heroísmo (1995), MAH (Museu de Angra do Heroísmo).

Relatório Preliminar sobre a Recuperação de uma Boca de Fogo Quinhentista (1996), MAH.

Intervenção Arqueológica Subaquática na baía de Angra: Relatório Preliminar, em co-autoria com GARCIA, Catarina (1996), MAH.

Intervenção Arqueológica Subaquática na baía de Angra: Relatório Final, em co-autoria com GARCIA, Catarina (1996), MAH.

Intervenção Arqueológica Subaquática em Santa Cruz das Flores: Relatório Preliminar. (1997), MAH.

Projecto de Posicionamento e Inventariação das Âncoras do Monte Brasil. (1997), MAH.

Projecto de Intervenção Arqueológica Subaquática. Fragata L'Astrée (1796), Ilha do Pico, Açores. (1998), CNANS.

Projecto de Intervenção Arqueológica Subaquática Prospectiva de Emergência na baía da Horta, Ilha do Faial, Açores. (1999), CNANS.

Intervenção Arqueológica Subaquática Prospectiva de Emergência na baía da Horta, Ilha do Faial, Açores: Relatório Final. (1999), CNANS.

O naufrágio da nau da Carreira da Índia Nossa Senhora da Luz (1615): caracterização histórico-arqueológica (1999), CNANS.

Carta Arqueológica Subaquática dos Açores: metodologia e sua aplicação prática (1999), DRC (Direcção Regional de Cultura, Açores):

Projecto de Implementação de Reservas Arqueológicas Subaquáticas na Região Autónoma dos Açores (2000), DRC.

Intervenção Arqueológica Subaquática de Emergência na baía da Calheta, Ilha de São Jorge, Açores. Fragata HMS Pallas (1783): relatório preliminar. (1999), DRC.

Análise preliminar do conjunto de peças de artilharia submersas na Baixa do Broeiro, Cabo da Roca. (2007)

Public Presentations

Incentivos ao uso da arqueologia subaquática nas nossas escolas. Seminário Os Oceanos e a Escola, Programa Oceanofilia, EXPO'98, 14 a 15 de Novembro de 1995, Estoril

A arqueologia subaquática nos Açores. 11º Encontro Nacional de Mergulho, 1 de Março de 1996, Ponta Delgada

A arqueologia subaquática nos Açores e a sua importância para as ilhas do Grupo Ocidental. Museu das Flores, 1 e 2 de Agosto de 1997, Santa Cruz das Flores

A arqueologia subaquática nos Açores. Escola Preparatória C+S de Angra do Heroísmo, 5 de Novembro de 1997.

A arqueologia subaquática nos Açores e a sua importância para as ilhas do Grupo Central Museu de São Jorge, 25 e 26 de Novembro de 2000, Calheta de São Jorge.

Os Açores na encruzilhada da rota da prata e das riquezas do Novo Mundo: naufrágios, batalhas, mitos, história e lendas. EGEAC/Câmara Municipal de Lisboa - DANS-IGESPAR, 3 de Novembro de 2007, Padrão dos Descobrimentos, Lisboa


Diving and generic magazine and newspaper articles



“O que é a Arqueologia?”, A União, 25 de Novembro de 1995

“O que não é a Arqueologia Subaquática?”, A União, 02 de Dezembro de 1995

“A Armada da VOC no Faial em 1673”, A União, 16 e 23 de Dezembro de 1995

“O império espanhol e a sua articulação naval com o Novo Mundo”, A União, 06 de Janeiro de 1996

“A intervenção arqueológica de urgência na baía de Angra do Heroísmo”, A União, 13 de Janeiro de 1996

“A iniquidade do Dec-Lei 289/93 e a defesa dos interesses dos Açores”, A União, 20 de Janeiro de 1996

“O naufrágio do galeão São Pantaleão em Água de Pau, São Miguel”, A União, 27 de Janeiro de 1996

“A documentação histórica de naufrágios”, A União, 03 de Fevereiro de 1996

“O naufrágio do vapor Lidador”, A União, 10 de Fevereiro de 1996

“INA - o Institute of Nautical Archaeology nos Açores”, A União, 17 de Fevereiro de 1996

“O naufrágio do Slavonia na ilha das Flores”, A União, 24 de Fevereiro de 1996

“A insuportável leveza da lei e a defesa dos interesses dos Açores”, Notícias do Mar, Março de 1996

“A jazida arqueológica de Aveiro A”, A União, 9 de Março de 1996

“O equívoco do C.S.S. Alabama”, A União, 23 de Março de 1996

“Um naufrágio da Carreira das Índias”, A União, 23 de Março de 1996

“A protecção jurídica do património cultural subaquático”, A União, 30 de Março de 1996

“Baía de Angra - uma intervenção inadiável”, Notícias do Mar, Abril de 1996

“O mergulho na Arqueologia”, A União, 06 e 13 de Abril de 1996

“Anatomia de um naufrágio”, A União, 20 de Abril de 1996

“O mito do ouro espanhol na paragem do Corvo”, A União, 27 de Abril de 1996

“O naufrágio do São Pantaleão”, Notícias do Mar, Maio de 1996

“Uma caçada real”, A União, 04 de Maio de 1996

“E se falássemos de património?”, A União, 11 de Maio de 1996

“A prospecção electrónica em Arqueologia”, A União, 18 de Maio de 1996

“Uma ilha à venda?”, A União, 25 de Maio de 1996

“O naufrágio do navio espanhol Poderoso”, A União, 01 de Junho de 1996

“A conservação do património submerso”, A União, 08 de Junho de 1996

“Portos e ancoradouros da ilha Terceira”, A União, 15 de Junho de 1996

“O naufrágio da nau Chagas”, A União, 22 de Junho de 1996

“Os naufrágios da Baía de Angra”, A União, 29 de Junho de 1996

“O pioneirismo de Baptista de Lima”, A União, 06 de Julho de 1996

“A artilharia em Arqueologia”, A União, 20 de Julho de 1996

“O naufrágio do Padre António Vieira”, A União, 24 de Agosto de 1996

“Os naufrágios do ouro do Brasil””, A União, 31 de Agosto de 1996

“A prospecção nas baías de Angra”, A União, 7 de Setembro de 1996

“Os navios do descobrimento dos Açores”, A União, 14 de Setembro de 1996

“O turismo e o património subaquático”, A União, 21 de Setembro de 1996

“Dois naufrágios da Restauração”, A União, 28 de Setembro de 1996

“Jewels in the midst of lava coral”, Revista de bordo SATA-Air Açores, Inverno 1996

“Naufrágios na Baía de Angra”, Mundo Submerso Magazine, nº 4, Outubro de 1996

“A Lex Rhodia”, A União, 12 de Outubro de 1996

“À Flor do Mar”, A União, 19 de Outubro de 1996

“A New Era”, A União, 26 de Outubro de 1996

“O potencial arqueológico da baía de Angra”, Notícias do Mar, Outubro de 1996

“A prospecção em Arqueologia Subaquática”, Notícias do Mar, Novembro de 1996

“Baía de Angra - reserva arqueológica?”, A União, 2 e 9 de Novembro de 1996

“Naufrágios de São Jorge”, A União, 16 de Novembro de 1996

“Naufrágios do Pico e da Graciosa”, A União, 30 de Novembro de 1996

“As ilhas dos tesouros”, Notícias do Mar, Dezembro de 1996

“Naufrágios do Faial”, A União, 7 de Dezembro de 1996

“Naufrágios de São Miguel”, A União, 21 de Dezembro de 1996

“O afundamento do l’Océan”, A União, 22 e 28 de Fevereiro de 1997

“O naufrágio do Run’Her e a Guerra Civil Americana”, A União, 8 de Março de 1997

“A conservação do património submerso”, Notícias do Mar, Março de 1997

“Métodos de datação de naufrágios”, A União, 22 de Março de 1997

“Angra e o seu porto”, A União, 29 de Março de 1997

“A pilhagem do Porto Santo”, A União, 19 de Abril de 1997

“A nova lei da arqueologia subaquática”, A União, 26 de Abril de 1997

“Marinas e arqueologia”, Diário Insular, 26 de Abril de 1997

“1591 - O Revenge”, A União, 3 de Maio de 1997

“1591 - As frotas espanholas”, A União, 10 de Maio de 1997

“1591 - A batalha naval”, A União, 17 de Maio de 1997

“1591 - A tempestade e os naufrágios”, A União, 24 de Maio de 1997

“O ‘cemitério’ das âncoras”, A União, 31 de Maio de 1997

“As naus da Carreira das Índias”, A União, 21 de Junho de 1997

“O afundamento do U-581”, A União, 28 de Junho de 1997

“O naufrágio da fragata Astrea”, A União, 5 de Julho de 1997

“O naufrágio da barca Bidart”, A União, 12 de Julho de 1997

“O naufrágio do bergantim John”, A União, 26 de Julho de 1997

“O naufrágio da barca Brillant nas Flores”, A União, 9 de Agosto de 1997

“Estrelas e astrolábios”, A União, 20 de Setembro de 1997

“A UNESCO e os naufrágios profundos”, A União, 27 de Setembro de 1997

“O naufrágio da Nuestra Señora de las Angustias y San Jose”, A União, 4 de Outubro de 1997

“O naufrágio do Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes”, A União, 11 de Outubro de 1997

“Corsários argentinos nos Açores”, A União, 25 de Outubro de 1997

“Os destroços de ANGRA B”, A União, 15 de Novembro de 1997

“Dois naufrágios quatrocentistas em Angra”, A União, 22 de Novembro de 1997

“Moçambique a saque?”, A União, 24 de Janeiro de 1998

“Às bombas”, A União, 31 de Janeiro de 1998

“Expedição às Flores”, A União, 21 de Fevereiro de 1998

“Naufrágios brasileiros e turismo subaquático”, A União, 14 de Março de 1998

“ O naufrágio do galeão Sacramento (1668)”, A União, 21 de Março de 1998

“A construção naval portuguesa”, A União, de 3 e 11 de Abril de 1998

“Uma análise preliminar do naufrágio ANGRA D”, A União, 18 de Abril de 1998

“A conservação de madeiras encharcadas”, A União, 24 de Abril de 1998

Paulo, impressive work.

Alexandre and Aquanut, I think comparing resumes misses the point. Especially when a professional lures a hobbyist into comparing experience. Apples and oranges. It's like standing on either side of the Grand Canyon arguing that your view is better.

The point Filipe was making is that both thunters and archies have merit and can work together. Extremists mess it up for all involved.

Here's what Filipe also said:


Filipe Castro para SUB-ARCH
mostrar detalhes 24 fev (4 dias atrás)
(...) Perhaps I did not explain myself well.  I do not endorse the sale of any artifacts, and much less if it is intended to pay the excavation/destruction of an archaeological site.

What I said is that Odyssey is changing tack - probably partly because of the Mercedes gigantic blunder - and we must applaud their guts and encourage them to show their game. I will do that cheerfully, as I am pushing the UNESCO Convention Annex as the best practice rules to adopt.

Treasure hunters don't make their money from the sale of artifacts.  I don't believe that Odyssey will never manage to sell all the coins from the Republic, as I don't believe that they would manage to sell many coins from the Mercedes.  I think that there is actually space for some of these companies to maneuver away from the sale of artifacts.

My point is that we have spent too many years exchanging the same arguments BECAUSE treasure hunters would not show what they were doing.  There were rumors and stories and artifacts for sale whose provenience we could only guess - like the astrolabe in the Museo Naval de Madrid, for example.  That was all we had until now.

Now that Odyssey is making a move in our direction, I truly believe that we can pull our discussions a couple of notches up, and we encourage them to share what they know.  Anything to try to improve the standards.

We don't have to sell our souls in order to have a good constructive conversations with people we strongly disagree with.  )

You can relax.  I did not sell to the enemy.

Alexandre
A nice list, but I think you missed the point. Could you show us a report and the photos to go with it, or is that for archaeologists only? We could all learn something here if you would share with us.
Seahunter

Alexandre and Aquanut, I think comparing resumes misses the point. Especially when a professional lures a hobbyist into comparing experience. Apples and oranges. It's like standing on either side of the Grand Canyon arguing that your view is better.

The point Filipe was making is that both thunters and archies have merit and can work together. Extremists mess it up for all involved.

Darren, I wasn't interested  in, nor did I question Alexandres' resume' or integrity. I am already familiar with his background.
Aquanut

Veritas, I dont see the point.You tell that the Junta de Andalucía didnt give permision to Odyssey. The way you tell it it sound like Odyssey go in the middle of the night and tried to recover the Sussex. Far away from the truth. As soon as Odyssey noticed that the regional Gov. has something to do with the research and recovery of the Sussex, they get in touch and tried to get an agreement. You talk about the picture Pipe Sarmiento took but you say nothing of the fake picture of a coin in hand. Plus, working doesnt mean sailing. You can be working aboard Odyssey Explorer and not sailing on the Odyssey Explorer. It seems not big deal the "discovery" of Pipe Sarmiento. Anyway, I add the words of the Consejera of Culture from the Junta de Andalucía. I assume you understand spanish. You will read her statements and you can see that Odyssey and the Junta were talking and trying to get an agreement good for all of them. Something easy if they dont have on their backs the noisy group alarming people and media with their lies. And here you have the transcription of the words of the Consejera:

Pregunta: ininteligible.

Respuesta (Consejera): Vamos a ver. Os explico, aunque sea brevemente, porque es ...una odisea, nunca mejor dicho. Nosotros llevamos, yo creo, casi dos años trabajando de una manera seria y rigurosa en relacion con el cumplimiento de la Ley de Patrimonio que rige en la Comunidad y también, cómo no, con el cumplimiento de  la Ley de Patrimonio a nivel nacional. Por tanto, coordinados con la Dirección General de Bellas Artes del Ministerio, con Julián Martínez.  A lo largo de ese tiempo, y a fuerza de trabajo, de explicación y de diálogo, hemos conseguido que, tanto la empresa americana como el Ministerio de Asuntos Exteriores inglés, comprendan que además de la legislación estatal existe una legislación autonómica. Yo sé que el Estado de las Autonomías no es conocido en otros países pero aquí tenemos esa doble legislación. Por lo tanto, lo que hemos obtenido ha sido el respeto a la legalidad y el respeto a la institución Junta de Andalucía-Consejería de Cultura...Eso nos ha llevado un tiempo, pero hemos conseguido que, finalmente, es una reunión,..una de las reuniones,.. la última..., que se celebró el viernes (25 may 07), tanto la empresa como el Ministerio inglés nos expresasen su voluntad de cumplimentar todo el procedimiento necesario para llevar a cabo ..de lo que estamos hablando... que es una primera inmersión para que puedan documentarnos que efectivamente se trata del Sussex. Porque hasta ese momento no podremos autorizar ninguna otra actuación. Por lo tanto esta primera actuación está dirigida solo a la identificación del Sussex. A partir de ese momento estaremos hablando de otra cuestión, pero ahora mismo es identificarlo. Para que esa identificación se lleve a cabo tiene que haber un mínimo proyecto, por llamarlo de alguna manera, o por lo menos una metodología de trabajo que nosotros autoricemos y esa es la que estos momentos se está realizando por parte de la empresa para que sea finalmente la que rija esos trabajos. En todo momento esos trabajos, además, se van a hacer acompañados por un arqueólogo de la Junta de Andalucía, con lo cual eso nos va a garantizar que efectivamente lo que se lleve a cabo sea ese programa, esa metodología, ese proceso que previamente habremos autorizado. Esa es la situación del Sussex.

PREGUNTA: ininteligible (algo sobre la autorización por parte del Mº de AA EE)

RESPUESTA: Ha sido un proceso largo y seguramente seguirá siendo un proceso largo y complejo porque es la primera vez que está ocurriendo y, por tanto, de alguna manera, estamos sentando precedente. Una de las dificultades que había añadida era precisamente determinar la titularidad de las aguas. Si eran aguas internacionales, si eran aguas nacionales, si eran intercontinentales,  si eran... o sea, determinar... determinando qué tipo de aguas eran se determinaba qué institución era la que tenía la competencia para autorizar el proceso, ¿de acuerdo?..

PREGUNTA: ¿Y las aguas son?

RESPUESTA: De las que afectan a nuestra legislación. ¿De acuerdo?

Trinidad... That's right, there was an agreement with the Junta. It was the Minister of Culture Calvo that said Culture never signed the agreement. She was fired not to long after that.

So.....getting back on topic here....what is the latest in regards to Odyssey keeping the coinage?

Short version, please   

Veritas, I dont see the point.You tell that the Junta de Andalucía didnt give permision to Odyssey. The way you tell it it sound like Odyssey go in the middle of the night and tried to recover the Sussex. Far away from the truth. As soon as Odyssey noticed that the regional Gov. has something to do with the research and recovery of the Sussex, they get in touch and tried to get an agreement. You talk about the picture Pipe Sarmiento took but you say nothing of the fake picture of a coin in hand. Plus, working doesnt mean sailing. You can be working aboard Odyssey Explorer and not sailing on the Odyssey Explorer. It seems not big deal the "discovery" of Pipe Sarmiento. Anyway, I add the words of the Consejera of Culture from the Junta de Andalucía. I assume you understand spanish. You will read her statements and you can see that Odyssey and the Junta were talking and trying to get an agreement good for all of them. Something easy if they dont have on their backs the noisy group alarming people and media with their lies. And here you have the transcription of the words of the Consejera:

Pregunta: ininteligible.

Respuesta (Consejera): Vamos a ver. Os explico, aunque sea brevemente, porque es ...una odisea, nunca mejor dicho. Nosotros llevamos, yo creo, casi dos años trabajando de una manera seria y rigurosa en relacion con el cumplimiento de la Ley de Patrimonio que rige en la Comunidad y también, cómo no, con el cumplimiento de  la Ley de Patrimonio a nivel nacional. Por tanto, coordinados con la Dirección General de Bellas Artes del Ministerio, con Julián Martínez.  A lo largo de ese tiempo, y a fuerza de trabajo, de explicación y de diálogo, hemos conseguido que, tanto la empresa americana como el Ministerio de Asuntos Exteriores inglés, comprendan que además de la legislación estatal existe una legislación autonómica. Yo sé que el Estado de las Autonomías no es conocido en otros países pero aquí tenemos esa doble legislación. Por lo tanto, lo que hemos obtenido ha sido el respeto a la legalidad y el respeto a la institución Junta de Andalucía-Consejería de Cultura...Eso nos ha llevado un tiempo, pero hemos conseguido que, finalmente, es una reunión,..una de las reuniones,.. la última..., que se celebró el viernes (25 may 07), tanto la empresa como el Ministerio inglés nos expresasen su voluntad de cumplimentar todo el procedimiento necesario para llevar a cabo ..de lo que estamos hablando... que es una primera inmersión para que puedan documentarnos que efectivamente se trata del Sussex. Porque hasta ese momento no podremos autorizar ninguna otra actuación. Por lo tanto esta primera actuación está dirigida solo a la identificación del Sussex. A partir de ese momento estaremos hablando de otra cuestión, pero ahora mismo es identificarlo. Para que esa identificación se lleve a cabo tiene que haber un mínimo proyecto, por llamarlo de alguna manera, o por lo menos una metodología de trabajo que nosotros autoricemos y esa es la que estos momentos se está realizando por parte de la empresa para que sea finalmente la que rija esos trabajos. En todo momento esos trabajos, además, se van a hacer acompañados por un arqueólogo de la Junta de Andalucía, con lo cual eso nos va a garantizar que efectivamente lo que se lleve a cabo sea ese programa, esa metodología, ese proceso que previamente habremos autorizado. Esa es la situación del Sussex.

PREGUNTA: ininteligible (algo sobre la autorización por parte del Mº de AA EE)

RESPUESTA: Ha sido un proceso largo y seguramente seguirá siendo un proceso largo y complejo porque es la primera vez que está ocurriendo y, por tanto, de alguna manera, estamos sentando precedente. Una de las dificultades que había añadida era precisamente determinar la titularidad de las aguas. Si eran aguas internacionales, si eran aguas nacionales, si eran intercontinentales,  si eran... o sea, determinar... determinando qué tipo de aguas eran se determinaba qué institución era la que tenía la competencia para autorizar el proceso, ¿de acuerdo?..

PREGUNTA: ¿Y las aguas son?

RESPUESTA: De las que afectan a nuestra legislación. ¿De acuerdo?

Trinidad, source or link please.

Darren, I wasn't interested  in, nor did I question Alexandres' resume' or integrity. I am already familiar with his background.
Aquanut

I didn't think you had. I actually felt he questioned you as a hobbyist from his professional experience. Sorry, I wasn't trying to offend. I was simply hoping to point out the ongoing extremes that block out wonderful collaboration among both viewpoints. I applaud Odyssey for their commitment to both.

Vox, when you ask for the source or the link, it's because you don't believe what you read? This was a public press conference of the Consejera in 2007. It was recorded by, at least, five different communication media (press, radio, Tv´s). Curiously, nothing of this was released or, at least, I don't remember it was. I personally heard the statements and fix exactly with the transcription. Any comment?

Vox, here you have a link:

http://www.diariosur.es/prensa/20070329/gibraltar/cadiz-junta-afirma-acuerdo_20070329.html

How many wrecks have the archaeologists found? How many wrecks have the treasure hunters found?
Who has donated the most treasure and artifacts to the state and various museums? Who has enlightened the world to submerged history? I GUARANTY YOU it was NOT the archaeological community! The archaeologists have contributed greatly, but only after someone else has made the discovery. So get off your arrogant High Horse!
...Aquanut

Aquanut, here are the wrecks I have found so f

1) Angra A (late 19th century)
2) Angra B (mid-16th century)
3) Angra C (mid 17th century)
4) Angra D (late 16th century)
5) Nossa Senhora da Luz (1615)
6) HMS Pallas (1782)
7) l'Astrée (1796)
Lidador (1878)
9) Caroline (1901)

also, I have pinpointed the location of 4 other wrecks, which I intend to find in the near future: a Spanish galleon (1589), a VOC treasure ship (1626) and a french/spanish brig (1783).

Tell me: how many wrecks have you found so far? ;)

Alexandre, In what Countries waters is the 1589 Spanish Galleon you are looking for and what is the name of it??? Just curious.

So.....getting back on topic here....what is the latest in regards to Odyssey keeping the coinage?

Short version, please   

SWR, every court in the land is telling them to give it back, Including the US government 
Jeff would know when they have to comply with court.
Ossy

The case is on appeal to a higher court. The appelate court will award the coins to Odysssey.

The case is on appeal to a higher court. The appelate court will award the coins to Odysssey.

It's nice to dream, that's one thing in life that doesn't cost money
Ossy

If the appellate court disagrees with the lower court then it will go back to the lower court for trial. If they agree with the lower court then Odyssey will appeal to the Supreme Court. If a trial is held I'm sure the loser will appeal that decision. In other words, the coins aren't going anywhere for the next year or two unless Spain decides to settle.

If the appellate court disagrees with the lower court then it will go back to the lower court for trial. If they agree with the lower court then Odyssey will appeal to the Supreme Court. If a trial is held I'm sure the loser will appeal that decision. In other words, the coins aren't going anywhere for the next year or two unless Spain decides to settle.

Thanks for your reply.

It appears, as of now...Odyssey has lost. Due to the fact they (Odyssey) are appealing the ruling/judgment.

If the appellate court disagrees with the lower court then it will go back to the lower court for trial. If they agree with the lower court then Odyssey will appeal to the Supreme Court. If a trial is held I'm sure the loser will appeal that decision. In other words, the coins aren't going anywhere for the next year or two unless Spain decides to settle.

Thanks for your reply.

It appears, as of now...Odyssey has lost. Due to the fact they (Odyssey) are appealing the ruling/judgment.

SWR, that's like calling the game at half time...
or declaring the election before the poles close (a Florida thing)...

I'm just saying...

If the appellate court disagrees with the lower court then it will go back to the lower court for trial. If they agree with the lower court then Odyssey will appeal to the Supreme Court. If a trial is held I'm sure the loser will appeal that decision. In other words, the coins aren't going anywhere for the next year or two unless Spain decides to settle.

Thanks for your reply.

It appears, as of now...Odyssey has lost. Due to the fact they (Odyssey) are appealing the ruling/judgment.

SWR, that's like calling the game at half time...
or declaring the election before the poles close (a Florida thing)...

I'm just saying...

Tom, Spain 2 Odyssey 0 and we have the referee on our side
Ossy

more like tied at half time, and Odyssey has the ball (in a warehouse in Tampa).

... in a state and country that appear to be hostile to treasure hunters. 

more like tied at half time, and Odyssey has the ball (in a warehouse in Tampa).

The problem is they stole the match ball and the officials will disqualify odyssey for tampering
Ossy

Alexandre, In what Countries waters is the 1589 Spanish Galleon you are looking for and what is the name of it??? Just curious.

It's in Portuguese waters. We have 1589 Spanish shipwrecks from the Corvo Island, in the Azores, all the way till the Cape São Vicente, in the mainland...

Alexandre
A nice list, but I think you missed the point. Could you show us a report and the photos to go with it, or is that for archaeologists only? We could all learn something here if you would share with us.
Seahunter

Seahunter

As I have posted above, I have some of those documents online (link also above).

Also, I have posted a lot of photographs here on TNET, look for example, for the Namibia Shipwreck Update thread.

I didn't think you had. I actually felt he questioned you as a hobbyist from his professional experience.

Aquanut is right. I was just answering to his comment that underwater archaeologists do not find wrecks, TH's do - as I have shown, I have 8 such discoveries under my belt... ;)

As for being a professional, I have to disagree. Besides a brief stint done as a paid employee of the Portuguese Ministry of Culture (1998-2000), all my archaeological activity (travels, dives, lectures, academic fees, etc.) have been paid from my own pocket - as a matter of fact, I work for a living for a private company who deals in something else rather diferent than archaeology or wrecks. ;)


I do, however, remain attached by academic and professional liasions with the government agency that oversees this area of our heritage.

Alexandre I am also curious, are the Spanish wrecks of 1589 from the same fleet of Alvaro Flores or Martin Perez de Olazaual?

Alexandre I am also curious, are the Spanish wrecks of 1589 from the same fleet of Alvaro Flores or Martin Perez de Olazaual?

This one is from the Álvaro Flores Quiñones fleet.

Spanish Press...

http://tinyurl.com/ylytgoy

Now's the time to buy some more shares in Odyssey since it is below $1.50 a share.  If they lose, I don't expect it to take a plummet.  If they win the case, expect the shares to jump to $6-9 a share for the first day or two after the win.  Regardless, they are working on bringing up a lot of silver from another wreck, so the stock prices should rise once that is released.  Now I need to find a way to divert some money without the wifey finding out!

No surprise on the bill. Goold is taking now the money for the Black Swan and for the Juno and Galga. Five millions and his ass is completely dry. That's a real treasurehunter and not the people listed in this forum. I would like to see the faces of the crowd that has been crying at Odyssey for being something close to pirates. They must be with their mouths open and their eyes wide open asking then selves what happened here.

No surprise on the bill. Goold is taking now the money for the Black Swan and for the Juno and Galga. Five millions and his ass is completely dry. That's a real treasurehunter and not the people listed in this forum. I would like to see the faces of the crowd that has been crying at Odyssey for being something close to pirates. They must be with their mouths open and their eyes wide open asking then selves what happened here.

Will the real PIRATE please stand up!

No surprise on the bill. Goold is taking now the money for the Black Swan and for the Juno and Galga. Five millions and his ass is completely dry. That's a real treasurehunter and not the people listed in this forum. I would like to see the faces of the crowd that has been crying at Odyssey for being something close to pirates. They must be with their mouths open and their eyes wide open asking then selves what happened here.

Trinidad, It is pay the five million or let Odyssey keep it, simple choice nobody works for free !
Do you think Odyssey would give you any coins or sell them to you for as much as they can get ( $1000 each ) or more.
As a Spanish tax payer it would cost you no more than 9 euro ( 45,000,000 population ) I'd pay $100 euro for Spain to have it returned.
Any sales from the coin's will be used to benefit the Spanish people and further protect their heritage.
Ossy

Spanish Press...

http://tinyurl.com/ylytgoy

"On 23 December 2009, Judge Steven D. Merriday  otorgó en Tampa la razón al Gobierno español y ordenó a la compañía «cazatesoros» que dirige Gregg Stemm a que devolviera el tesoro a España. Tampa Merriday gave reason to the Spanish Government and ordered the company to "treasure hunter" Gregg Stemm directed to return the treasure to Spain."

Finally, the short version!  Thanks for the link  

"Finally, the substitute custodian, Odyssey, is ordered to return the res to Spain within ten days under the
circumstances and in a manner subject to approval by the Magistrate Judge. However, the order to the substitute custodian to return the res is STAYED, the order vacating the arrest warrant is STAYED, and the status quo of the res shall persist until the earlier of
(1) the day after the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals issues a mandate in this case or,
(2) if no party appeals, the expiration of the time to notice an appeal.
ORDERED in Tampa, Florida, on December 22, 2009.
Judge Merryday"

As I said, the coins are going nowhere until the process is over.

Ossy:
          The central point of disagreement between the pro-UNESCO Convention supporters (Spain amongst others) and its detractors is precisely that the coins can not be sold, commercialized in any way, as this is the main pillar in this Convention that has produced the current chaos in the protection of underwater cultural patrimony. Eight years after it was approved in Paris, only 24 counties have ratified it and serious problems have arisen in the ones that have, 66 countries that voted in favor have not yet ratified it at this late point.
          No, Spain will have to pay the services of its attorneys with tax payers’ money, which is also the only source available to fund any exploration and recovery projects in its territorial waters or in the waters of the other co-adherents of this nefarious excuse of a protection policy. Good lawyers are very expensive and one would guess that Odyssey has also had to spend a handsome penny in its defense, which brings to mind this thought: in the future how many companies will follow this path…how many fortuitous finds in Spanish waters will never be known, disappearing in the night? If Spain were to win this lawsuit (the opera ain’t over…) the pertinent question is, has Spain and its cultural patrimony benefited from this judgment? I have serious doubts
.     

Vox, when you ask for the source or the link, it's because you don't believe what you read? This was a public press conference of the Consejera in 2007. It was recorded by, at least, five different communication media (press, radio, Tv´s). Curiously, nothing of this was released or, at least, I don't remember it was. I personally heard the statements and fix exactly with the transcription. Any comment?

Trinidad, I am anxious to get to a trial of the case "Operation Bahia 2" to hear all the garbage Sussex-Odyssey-Mercedes. The official documents speak for themselves. Cheers VV

Pánfilo, you got it. Those are the points. Anyway, I don't believe Spain will sell anything from La Mercedes or any other spanish historical shipwreck. And if does, we will never know about it. I think this is just a press information and all of us know how this goes about the Black Swan case on almost all the the spanish media. Vox Veritas, you didn't answer my question. Why did you ask for the source or the link after reading the Consejera statements?

[Vox Veritas, you didn't answer my question. Why did you ask for the source or the link after reading the Consejera statements?]

Pánfilo, you got it. Those are the points. Anyway, I don't believe Spain will sell anything from La Mercedes or any other spanish historical shipwreck. And if does, we will never know about it. I think this is just a press information and all of us know how this goes about the Black Swan case on almost all the the spanish media. Vox Veritas, you didn't answer my question. Why did you ask for the source or the link after reading the Consejera statements?

Because it's all explained in the official records of the case "Operation Bahia 2". You just have to read them.

Vox, I don't want to sound rude or something, but your answer and nothing it's the same. Tell me why you ask for the source of the statement, does it sounds strange to you? Does it corroborates your point of view? Is it the opposite of what you are soustaining since a long time? Not so difficult to be clear about a question that has to do with your public image and credibility.

Trinidad,

It is common on this board to ask for source statements. It has nothing to do with Vox Verita's credibility. It has more to do with accurate research, which I'm sure you can understand. No one wants to base their research on undocumented sources.

Yes Darren, I noticed that and it's more than OK to me. But I have to be a little pushy in this case because I really want to know what is the Vox´s opinion about an spanish politician public statement that doesn't fix with a predominant opinion stream here in Spain about the behaviour of Odyssey on the Sussex case. It's just that. And to this statement Vox answer with a question but not with an argument to refuse it or accept it, that was what I was looking for. Sorry, I knew it would sound rude. Excuse me all of you and, first, excuse me Vox.

Ossy:
          The central point of disagreement between the pro-UNESCO Convention supporters (Spain amongst others) and its detractors is precisely that the coins can not be sold, commercialized in any way, as this is the main pillar in this Convention that has produced the current chaos in the protection of underwater cultural patrimony. Eight years after it was approved in Paris, only 24 counties have ratified it and serious problems have arisen in the ones that have, 66 countries that voted in favor have not yet ratified it at this late point.
          No, Spain will have to pay the services of its attorneys with tax payers’ money, which is also the only source available to fund any exploration and recovery projects in its territorial waters or in the waters of the other co-adherents of this nefarious excuse of a protection policy. Good lawyers are very expensive and one would guess that Odyssey has also had to spend a handsome penny in its defense, which brings to mind this thought: in the future how many companies will follow this path…how many fortuitous finds in Spanish waters will never be known, disappearing in the night? If Spain were to win this lawsuit (the opera ain’t over…) the pertinent question is, has Spain and its cultural patrimony benefited from this judgment? I have serious doubts
.     

Hola Panfilo, By sale of some of the coins, I meant sale to other museum's. Spain unlike Odyssey doesn't sell it's cultural
Patrimony on eBay.
My point was It will cost every Spaniard 9 euro in Tax about the price of a packet of cigarettes, Well worth every cent to have the
goods return to Spain.
All the people that died on the Mercedes died trying to keep the goods from the English, need I say more !!!
Ossy

" The pertinent question is, has Spain and it's cultural patrimony benefited from this judgment? I have serious doubts" Panfilo.
I disagree Panfilo, sure nothing is perfect but it has given Spain a kick in the back side and has brought it to the attention of
the Spanish people.
If the judgment goes Odyssey way, how is this going to benefit Spain They would be there digging up the straights the
very next day. Greg would buy his new penthouse and Ferrari, Bigger recovery ship How will this help Spain?
unless he buys his penthouse in Spain ( one with bar's )
Ossy

The coins can not be sold Ossy to anybody, to museums nor to the Vatican nor to his Majesty himself, the Convention is very clear here, Cultural patrimony can not be commercialized, (see Rule 2 “Underwater cultural heritage shall not be traded, sold bought or bartered as commercial goods”) Mas claro no canta un gallo!

Sure the Black Swann case has brought the subject to the Spanish public attention but at what price and with which results? I am willing to make a friendly wager Ossy that Odyssey will win this case in the appellate Court or at best in the Supreme Court, then what will happen in Spain? There is a false sense of confidence in Spain that the press has made prevalent, and I might add that the general coverage of the news has been very biased and lacking in objectivity. The cardinal point that will be defined by the US courts  Ossy is if the Mercedes was a military ship on a military non-commercial mission at the time of its sinking. The evidence is overwhelming, alpaca wool, cascarilla wood, discarded cannons, women and children, 76% of the registered coins were privately owned, do you think Ossy that the Spanish ships on their way to Trafalgar a few months later had this kind of cargo? Not likely! The appellate judges will see the light and will rule in Odysseys favor, have no doubts on this and by all means don’t be surprised when it happens.

The coins were not returning to Spain Ossy, they were never there and never ever got there in the first place, they belonged to private merchants, doing business and if you believe in private property, these coins were never expropriated so Spain can hardly say it owned them or now owns them. With the exception of course of the ones owned by the crown, the 24% remaining, those they can and should claim.

Lastly Ossy, when you speak of Spain “benefitting” the true and bottom issue is exactly that, how should Spain benefit in preserving its very valuable submerged cultural patrimony? And the answer is certainly not doing what it is doing for many reasons: nobody who finds a valuable wreck in Spanish waters will in his right mind denounce it, sad case for the history involved. The Spanish press has made Odyssey and Greg Stemm look like pirates and villains unjustly, saying that the coins were taken from Spanish territorial waters and we now all know that it is not the case, a classical case of disinformation. Now if the Mercedes is ruled to be a military ship on a commercial mission (it certainly was!) and Odyssey is awarded a salvage fee, according to accepted international law and Spain ended up paying five million Euros to its lawyers…there will be heads rolling. Not a distant or unrealistic scenario my friend.

Paniflo... I might add that Spain never paid the merchants one penny in compensation, although they introduced evidence to the court as if they did. Odyssey will also be able to show that before the ships sailed from Peru, they (Navy?) advertised for merchants to ship their goods and specie. How anybody can claim this was a non-commercial voyage is beyond me.

Panfilo, Si muy Claro. The coins being sold to museums or not is not my issue, they can be shared with museums in Peru and Spain, my issue is Odyssey
selling them for their personal gain, how is that going to benefit Spain in any way or it's people or the people of Peru ?
I regards to it being a military mission, they were under orders from naval comand and on a Royal naval vessel under the control of naval officers !
and under the Spanish flag, they could have being transporting anything does not matter ( under royal naval command orders ) The English thought
as much or they would not have attacked, they thought the crown was going to use this silver to fund the french war effort against them.
As Spain instructed Odyssey leave the Mercedes alone ! I would prefer for the coins, as some have mentioned here to put them back where they
came from, in respect for all the people that died.
As you mentioned, they latter headed for Trafalgar with gun power, why ? cause of the deadly attack on the Mercedes. Spain never wanted another
war with the English.
The Mercedes has a very important meaning to me, and who cares about the coins, it's the people who died trying to stop the English from taking
them forcefully, it should be about their memory.
The US government and two judges have agreed it's a sovereign vessel ! so i am happy to have a bet Panfilo.
Panfilo, how is Odyssey selling the coins on Ebay going to benefit anybody apart from Odyssey
Ossy