Odyssey Marine Article...

Well, Vox, maybe it´s time you show your sources or links where you base this kind of complot.

Vox,

That all sounds very complicated. As far as I can tell, there is no link between Sea Hunt and Odyssey, and between Juno/La Galga and Mercedes,
except to the extent that Spain has used the same 1902 Treaty as part of its argument in both cases.

And I still don't understand why Spain would have offered a salvage contract to Sea Hunt in 2003 when the Court of Appeals gave them full rights over those wrecks in 2000. I do not believe that financial gain has been Spain's motivation in their interventions over the last five years or so, and I cannot understand why they would have wanted to let Sea Hunt salvage any of their  wrecks.

Mariner

Well, Vox, maybe it´s time you show your sources or links where you base this kind of complot.

Very simple Juzgado de Instrucción numero 4, Cadiz. Diligencias previas 2881, año 2005.
Good reading.
On the complot, not a theory of mine, is in many newspapers in Spain. But obviously these journalists are lying and other in the stock market tell the truth!
Cheers VV

Vox,

That all sounds very complicated. As far as I can tell, there is no link between Sea Hunt and Odyssey, and between Juno/La Galga and Mercedes,
except to the extent that Spain has used the same 1902 Treaty as part of its argument in both cases.

And I still don't understand why Spain would have offered a salvage contract to Sea Hunt in 2003 when the Court of Appeals gave them full rights over those wrecks in 2000. I do not believe that financial gain has been Spain's motivation in their interventions over the last five years or so, and I cannot understand why they would have wanted to let Sea Hunt salvage any of their  wrecks.

Mariner

Mariner,
yes, very complicated, but sometimes miracles happen. The agreement did not like and had to sweep the house. The top official of the Ministry of Culture was charged in the same case as me. Follow the many coincidences of the Sea Hunt case, and so on. Well, I do not believe in coincidences, and history has shown me so.

Alexandre
A nice list, but I think you missed the point. Could you show us a report and the photos to go with it, or is that for archaeologists only? We could all learn something here if you would share with us.
Seahunter

Seahunter

As I have posted above, I have some of those documents online (link also above).

Also, I have posted a lot of photographs here on TNET, look for example, for the Namibia Shipwreck Update thread

Alexandre
I looked at the Namibia shipwreck thread. Are you talking about the four pictures of two coins on dry land?
Seahunter

Odyssey PR...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Odyss...ion-pz-2105902586.html?x=0&.v=1

Spanish Press...

http://tinyurl.com/yaomhcd

Spanish Press...

http://tinyurl.com/yaomhcd

Very soon we will reach "Operation Bahia 2" and all the garbage. Give it time!

Vox, we've already read the garbage. The stuff (I wont call that information) wrote on ABC (even with spies and all) is exactly that. And being you an expert researcher on AGI and Simancas, that worked for all kind of companies, it sounds at least "rare" that you agree with the "sound" of this article, that is something close to a "big brother" on that kind of institutions.

[whose ministry of culture denied the existence]

Vox, we've already read the garbage. The stuff (I wont call that information) wrote on ABC (even with spies and all) is exactly that. And being you an expert researcher on AGI and Simancas, that worked for all kind of companies, it sounds at least "rare" that you agree with the "sound" of this article, that is something close to a "big brother" on that kind of institutions.

Trinidad,
I do not know about other historical researchers. I know personally from many years ago Victoria. I've always worked for lawful purposes and/or to prepare projects for institutional or subject to administrative institutions. My credentials attest to this. I want to remember that now there is no need any credentials to undertake historical researchers in Spain. Any citizen can access with your ID card. This was a move that changed with the current government, as before, as I said, it was necessary to have a credential letter of introduction.
Of course there should be forbidden for a historical researcher can access the consultation documents whose purpose is illegal. The problem is that in Victoria, very professional and serious, she was not told the whole truth and surely she will be "entangled" with the ghosts permits of Asuntos Exteriores, whose ministry of culture denied the existence.

I didn't say a thing about the great researcher Victoria Stapell is. That goes with out saying. I've just said that the article is a piece of sh...  And yes, I remember how easy it was to get a credential to obtain the old "carnet de investigador". Not big deal. I think information must available for everyone. If not, we have the danger that someone would propose to keep it in monasteries or something like that. Why I have to tell anybody the object of an investigation of mine if I want to keep it confidential? Why I have to get exposed to somebody eye if I don't want it? To see and study historical files should never be a question of preventive security. It's not the knife but the hand that use the knife what kill somebody or just cut the bread. And you give for stated that Victoria Stapell was misleaded or something. Don't run so fast and wait for the end of the show. Anyway, did you know the whole truth when you researched for the people aboard the Louise? I'm sure you didnt because, as you, I think there should be forbidden to consult historical documents with an illegal purpose. I say more, it should be forbidden anything that comes with an illegal purpose. Categorically, illegal purposes should be illegal.

[Anyway, did you know the whole truth when you researched for the people aboard the Louise?]

I didn't say a thing about the great researcher Victoria Stapell is. That goes with out saying. I've just said that the article is a piece of sh...  And yes, I remember how easy it was to get a credential to obtain the old "carnet de investigador". Not big deal. I think information must available for everyone. If not, we have the danger that someone would propose to keep it in monasteries or something like that. Why I have to tell anybody the object of an investigation of mine if I want to keep it confidential? Why I have to get exposed to somebody eye if I don't want it? To see and study historical files should never be a question of preventive security. It's not the knife but the hand that use the knife what kill somebody or just cut the bread. And you give for stated that Victoria Stapell was misleaded or something. Don't run so fast and wait for the end of the show. Anyway, did you know the whole truth when you researched for the people aboard the Louise? I'm sure you didnt because, as you, I think there should be forbidden to consult historical documents with an illegal purpose. I say more, it should be forbidden anything that comes with an illegal purpose. Categorically, illegal purposes should be illegal.

About the people of Louisa, I signed an agreement that said that everything would be legal and with proper administrative permissions. When I started to see strange things, I disconnected. All this is written black on white and shaped in the case "Bahia 2". Besides officially denounce what was happening. So .....

No matter how much I read and re-read this Spanish press article in today’s ABC, for the life of me I can’t make any sense of it all. Do the Spanish bureaucrats actually believe that closing down or limiting the access to their historical archives will curtail the ongoing plunder of their underwater cultural heritage? First thing they must realize is that true underwater pirates don’t need any historical document to find and pillage a centuries old wreck. Historical research is mainly (not solely but mainly) performed by respectable companies that like to work in the open and abide by the law. There are of course exceptions as in any field of endeavor. Pirates, unscrupulous as they are as a whole, have no sense of the precious value of history or of the preservation of cultural artifacts or of their meaning or true intrinsic value. They are interested in gold and silver or anything that will bring a quick buck. To think that these persons are going to learn how to read antique Spanish ( cortesana, procesal encadenada, etc.!!!) on their way to plunder some wreck is something that my imagination can not fully comprehend. There are normally enough wrecks out there that the fishermen are finding tangled in their nets to supply a huge illegal market for such pirates. The market for documentation of “interesting” wrecks exists today and always will exist and you don’t have to go to Sevilla to get them, normally the internet is the correct tool. 

           The moment you start limiting or censuring the access to information, for whatever purpose or reason, you have taken the first step in becoming a totalitarian State. Who is to say why someone is researching in any archive? Just because some unscrupulous people perform illegal abortions doesn’t mean you should close the library section that houses gynecological information or does it? Sad picture for the Protection of Underwater Cultural Heritage…oh, I forgot, the UNESCO already solved that problem.

Do the Spanish bureaucrats actually believe that closing down or limiting the access to their historical archives will curtail the ongoing plunder of their underwater cultural heritage?

No more than outlawing guns will stop them from being used in crime. More legislation always makes it difficult for the honest guy and does little to stop criminal activity.

Panfilo Hola, You make a lot of sense, but what you forget is, attaching history to a item multiples
the price, Look at the Atocha for example.
you will never stop the illegal trade, but if they don't know were to look, they won't find them.
Nothing is perfect, but I think Spain has learnt some valueable lessons.
Ozzy

Do you have any proposal, Ossy? Only the "right" people could go into an historical file? Who will decide the "right" people"? It sound scary and medieval.

Do you have any proposal, Ossy? Only the "right" people could go into an historical file? Who will decide the "right" people"? It sound scary and medieval.

The Information should be there to benefit people that use it correctly and not for commercial gain.
And by that I mean for historical purpose's, Like history books that attach information about the people and their story. you can then see who owned these relics and a cold piece of metal can become human.
But these items should be available for everyone in musems and not in my private collection.
I did have a question for you trinidad, I am very curious, what is your back ground.
Ossy

Why so much prevention against commercial gain? How do you think Victoria Stapell pay her rent and food and other stuff? Working honestly, researching and selling that information to the people who pay for it. It's that bad? Must it be forbidden to people as Stapell or Vox Veritas to make a living from researching in historical files? Because this is a commercial gain. Or when you say commercial gain you mean "recovery and salvage companies commercial gain". It's been a conquest to open all the historical files here in Spain to the citizenship, don't undone that. And go against the people who broke the law, not easy people that just read old papers.

Attaching history to an item will not necessarily multiply its price Ossy; if the wreck was excavated illegally more likely then not it will land the pirates in jail. Example, let’s suppose for an instant that an enterprising group of Spanish pirates decide to plunder the Santisima Trinidad (not a good example…not much gold here) and they all learn paleography very expediently, go to Simancas and find all there is to know about the ships construction it’s cargo, etc. Do you honestly think they are going to advertise on the internet: “Fabulous bronze breech cannon recovered from the Santisima Trinidad for sale for $8,000”? Not likely my friend Ossy, this is just another ill conceived notion for the protection of mankind’s patrimony that will in no way help solve the real problem: the disappearance of antique wrecks by the dredging of old ports and bays, the replenishment of beaches, landfills and the construction of buildings over antique ports, trawling by fishermen destroying every day hundreds of wrecks worldwide and the fortuitous finds by fishermen and recreational divers of wrecks. I don’t see any real effort by governments at attacking these real causes for the destruction of historical patrimony.

One can only wonder and be perplexed at the concept that limiting access to archives will somehow deter the rampant destruction of our underwater heritage.

Ossy,
You really do contradict your value system when it regards historical heritage being protected.  You may want to visit one of Spain's victims of conquest so you can get a grasp on the reality of the cultural heritage they obliterated.  Visit my wife's homeland of Peru for instance.  You should check out Cusco and all it's Inca majesty...oh wait, most of it was decimated by the Spanish.  All the "cultural" items of value were stripped down, stolen, and melted to be sent back home to the treasury of the Kingdom of Spain. 

By closing the archives to only what you consider legitimate academic interest is soooooo 16th century in thinking.  What is Spain scared of?  Are they afraid someone else is going to find some shipwrecks that contain the remnants of South American cultures they destroyed?  Spain just needs to let go and realize they are no longer the conquerors they were in the 16th and 17th century.  I find it amazing the Spanish government can cede defeat to Al Qaeda and submit to their wishes, but when it comes to plunder from the 16-18th centuries they stand firm! 

Oh and Capt Dom...it does because it can!

Panfilo, Well Said!
Capt Dom, Nothing like a good sense of humor when it comes to dealing with the unreasonable!
Trinidada, I agree whole heartedly!
Ossy, What really drives your argument? You have posted a continuous attack on anyone not of the mindset that Spain is all deserving.
Spain, who looted the treasures and cultural heritage of the Americas. Spain, who doesn't bother to search for or recover their own shipwrecks. I think if Spain were to look at their cultural heritage brought to the surface of the oceans, they should get on their knees and kiss the hands of those in the salvage business. Anyway, it seems to me that all the artifacts in private hands will eventually be sold or willed to museums in the end. All those wonderful artifacts can join the millions of others locked away in vault and archives, never to see the light of day...

Aquanut

Well, it's been six days... I must have the last word...

Well, it's been six days... I must have the last word...

When you're right ... you're right.  

Well, it's been six days... I must have the last word...

Sorry aquanut I have been in the US for a week, Don't worry I will respond, just Jetlaged
Ossy

I'm not at all experienced in this subject and am just a regular guy who works for a living and digs in the dirt on the weekend for old coins so please take that into consideration. If I understand this correctly the Spanish are upset that people who spend, sometimes millions of dollars on research , equipment & manpower are "stealing" treasures from shipwrecks that sank while transporting stuff the Spanish stole from someone else ? Stuff that was lost hundreds or years ago that the Spanish themselves aren't looking for. They just want to take it for free AGAIN...  Ya ok..... Isn't that a little bit like finding one of Jesse James stashes & having his family ask for the loot to be returned to them ?

NHbandit,

Smarter than the average Bear!

Aquanut

The rats are guarding the cheese...   

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Ossy,
You really do contradict your value system when it regards historical heritage being protected.  You may want to visit one of Spain's victims of conquest so you can get a grasp on the reality of the cultural heritage they obliterated.  Visit my wife's homeland of Peru for instance.  You should check out Cusco and all it's Inca majesty...oh wait, most of it was decimated by the Spanish.  All the "cultural" items of value were stripped down, stolen, and melted to be sent back home to the treasury of the Kingdom of Spain. 

By closing the archives to only what you consider legitimate academic interest is soooooo 16th century in thinking.  What is Spain scared of?  Are they afraid someone else is going to find some shipwrecks that contain the remnants of South American cultures they destroyed?  Spain just needs to let go and realize they are no longer the conquerors they were in the 16th and 17th century.  I find it amazing the Spanish government can cede defeat to Al Qaeda and submit to their wishes, but when it comes to plunder from the 16-18th centuries they stand firm! 

Oh and Capt Dom...it does because it can!

I didn't say close the archives, I said it should be controlled.
" The Spanish government can cede defeat to Al Qaeda and submit to their wishes " What the 
The Spanish pulled out of Iraq, they were not interested in controlling oil wells.
But they are very involved in Afghanistan fighting Al Qaeda !
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/e.../02/12/afghanistan.spain/index.html
Philvis, do you really think the English, French, Dutch would have done anything any different, if they would have been the first to the new world.
 Stop attacking Spain and look in your own back yard, my friend. We all the same, and yes, we should all learn from our mistakes.
I am against any war ! How much does the US spend on defence? You could all have free health care, homes for the poor and food for all.
Ossy

Panfilo, Well Said!
Capt Dom, Nothing like a good sense of humor when it comes to dealing with the unreasonable!
Trinidada, I agree whole heartedly!
Ossy, What really drives your argument? You have posted a continuous attack on anyone not of the mindset that Spain is all deserving.
Spain, who looted the treasures and cultural heritage of the Americas. Spain, who doesn't bother to search for or recover their own shipwrecks. I think if Spain were to look at their cultural heritage brought to the surface of the oceans, they should get on their knees and kiss the hands of those in the salvage business. Anyway, it seems to me that all the artifacts in private hands will eventually be sold or willed to museums in the end. All those wonderful artifacts can join the millions of others locked away in vault and archives, never to see the light of day...

Aquanut

Aquanut, I am one eyed, when it comes to Spain, but I am sick of the " They Looted the Americas" crap, every time Spain
makes comment of its cultural heritage.
If you all feel so bad about it, why don't you give a share of any treasure you find back to Peru, Mexico etc !!! anybody??
Dom, I do agree you are a funny guy
Ossy

Ossy,
Spain looted those countries, not us. Their treasure is not part of Spains cultural heritage. I'm not a bunny hugger or guilt ridden liberal either so I don't feel the need to send hard earned treasure to a country looted by Spain.
Spain, on the other hand wants to sit back and steal it from us, after we spent our money, time and effort, not to mention risking our lives to get it.
Aquanut

Ossy maybe you can understand this: Spain looted it from the new world. Now, Odyssey is looting it from Spain. OK?

Like it or not, there is a difference between Spoils of War and Illegally procured items.

Mariner

Ossy,
My Al Qaeda reference was to the demands made by Al Qaeda after the Madrid train bombing that the government of Spain complied with.  I was merely using that as a point that the Spanish government backs down to something like that, but are relentless when it comes to gold and silver, correction, items of historical significance.

I understand you cannot turn back the clock on events that happened in the past, nor do I think you can blame anyone in the present day for them.  The part I am having a hard time with is Spain's relentless pursuit for their historical heritage and their "rightful" claim of ownership of said items.  I'm sorry, but I just don't see how a country can justify gold/silver obtained through less than reputable ways from a subjugated people as being historically significant.  It would be like Germany 100 years from now claiming ownership of newly discovered Nazi gold...gold that was obtained as the result of the genocide of a certain people. 

I have no particular beef with Spain.  I would feel the same way about a cargo of jewels obtained from mines in India if they were on a British ship that went down.  If the salvors are not allowed the "newest spoils", then it should go back to the country of origin, where they were pillaged from.  Typically those Third World countries need and deserve it more anyhow. 

Philvis,

Ossy can speak for himself, but I should point out that there has been no "relentless pursuit" of its heritage. It has only got involved when companies like Odyssey have continued a "relentless pursuit" of Spanish shipwrecks. Spain has simply defended irs rights when confronted with the removal of what it sees as theft of its properties, and so far at least, the Courts have agreed with Spain. Remember, it was Odyssety who removed all 500,000 of the coins from the Black Swab site, and not the few artifacts that were necessary undfer the salvage laws to pursue a claim.

I personally don't believe that the Mercedes cargo is immune from salvage under the International Convention on salvage, but I do believe that the laws should be respected, and that the established procedures should be followed to establish who, if anybody, has a right to to a particuilar wreck. If we don't like a particuilar law, then we should try to get it altered, not just ignore and break it.

Mariner

Ossy maybe you can understand this: Spain looted it from the new world. Now, Odyssey is looting it from Spain. OK?

I'm glad you finally admitted odyssey looted the goods, see we can agree on somethings

Ossy,
Spain looted those countries, not us. Their treasure is not part of Spains cultural heritage. I'm not a bunny hugger or guilt ridden liberal either so I don't feel the need to send hard earned treasure to a country looted by Spain.
Spain, on the other hand wants to sit back and steal it from us, after we spent our money, time and effort, not to mention risking our lives to get it.
Aquanut

" I don't feel the need to send hard earned TREASURE to a country looted by Spain".  double standards
Stop using the Spain Looted crap ! and speak the truth, you just want the treasure and who cares were it came from !
Nobody forces you to spent money and put your life at risk, you do it for your own personal gain.
aquanut it's your choice, this is nothing personal as I respect all your hard work, just stop using Spain as an excuse !
Ossy

That's right Ossy,
I do it for my own personal gain. Has this recently become a sin or something, or is it a convenience for those who will never make the effort to point fingers at those who do as if we're  some sort of criminals? Spain is not being used as an excuse because I don't need one. Spain is simply a lazy has been trying to claim something they abandoned hundreds of years ago. Again I say, if it were not for the treasure (and I mean money) aboard those wrecks, Spain wouldn't be interested. I think I've been clear enough as far as my opinion on this matter. So we'll leave it to the courts to work out.
Hasta ma Later...

Aquanut

"Nobody forces you to spent money and put your life at risk, you do it for your own personal gain."

Ossy I'm glad we agree that Odyssey spent their money, took the risks and recovered the coins for their gain. So if Spain wants the coins they should have spent THEIR OWN money to recover it themselves. Just like the Mel Fisher Center is spending money to recover the CROWN JEWELS OF SPAIN on the East coast of Florida. Why doesn't Spain do the same? Because spain wants other people to get it and then claim it as cultural heritage. BULL$HIT!

Pete, we are never going to agree on this, So we will take aquanut advise and let the courts decide.
Ossy

] " I don't feel the need to send hard earned TREASURE to a country looted by Spain".  double standards
Stop using the Spain Looted crap ! and speak the truth, you just want the treasure and who cares were it came from !
Nobody forces you to spent money and put your life at risk, you do it for your own personal gain.
aquanut it's your choice, this is nothing personal as I respect all your hard work, just stop using Spain as an excuse !
Ossy

Thanks, Ossy, for letting that issue to hang and dry out in the open.

(maybe Odyssey will deliver those coins to Peru... or is it Bolivia? Maybe the Irakis will send us, Iberians, all the silver they took from Portugal and Spain in the 7th century BC... maybe the US will give back Louisiana and New York... who knows?)

Hi friends, too much coincidental that I and other patriots we were about to go get the Mercedes under the Ministry of Culture of Spain, among other things to fill museums. The Mercedes was and is a ship of the Spanish Navy. You believe in chance? I do not think so!
Cheers VV

Does anyone know if there were any other ships that shared the name "Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes" at that time and if they were operating in the same area ?

 
Gary

Yes Peerless, in 1804 there were several "Mercedes" sailing the seas at the same time. I came across one in the Montevideo archives but it had a different captain and crew. Then there are two others I came across in the Peru archives, one was privately owned the other was called Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes y Las Animas. This is just in American waters Peerless, I’m sure in Spain there must have been several others.

Here is a picture of a woman from Bolivia
who is not to happy with Spain's claim..

Hmmm....Vox, maybe your group of patriots has an spy inside. Think about it. Everytime you and your group are just about to do something about the salvation of the spanish underwater heritage and the renewal of the spanish museums...zas! Odyssey suddenly appears from the dark and spoils your well intentioned plans...jesus! That cant be a coincidence...it must be a masterplan, yes, sure, a masterplan from the dark side of the force...Vox...I'm your father...

and I thought you were just Trini's Dad???!!!

Aquanut

I like the hat, once bought one from Bates Hat Shop in London, could use another do you have her number Dom?

Hmmm....Vox, maybe your group of patriots has an spy inside. Think about it. Everytime you and your group are just about to do something about the salvation of the spanish underwater heritage and the renewal of the spanish museums...zas! Odyssey suddenly appears from the dark and spoils your well intentioned plans...jesus! That cant be a coincidence...it must be a masterplan, yes, sure, a masterplan from the dark side of the force...Vox...I'm your father...

Trini,
as I said! I do not believe in coincidences, but there are always some "bird" ready to sing. This "bird" has already begun to sing.
Cheers VV

and I thought you were just Trini's Dad???!!!

Aquanut

John,

Possibly the worst pun/joke ever posted on this forum!!

Bob

Here are the unhappy ones from Peru!

Note the mean looking one on the right -

The one on the left, with the apparently
itchy nipples!   is the happy go lucky leg breaker...

Their beginning to organize - notice the hat again!

Look out spain... their on to you....

Vox,

The germans had a ship called the The Mercedes too.Heres a pic of thier newest ship.

Capt Dom, As I can see the humor in your posts, You should not do it at the expense of the people of Bolivia
Instead of pointing the finger at Spain, you should be asking what Odyssey will do for these beautiful people if they win
the court case??
Ossy

Instead of pointing the finger at Spain, you should be asking what Odyssey will do for these beautiful people if they win the court case??
Ossy

Ossy... I'm sure it would be a hell of a lot more than what Spain would do. First, they would make sure the descendants got something, and second, they would donate coins to the museums in Peru.

Instead of pointing the finger at Spain, you should be asking what Odyssey will do for these beautiful people if they win the court case??
Ossy

Ossy... I'm sure it would be a hell of a lot more than what Spain would do. First, they would make sure the descendants got something, and second, they would donate coins to the museums in Peru.

We will see Jeff, And you might be surprised by what Spain will do ! Let hope the People of Bolivia get a share, no mater
who gets it !
Ossy

DELETED – Forum Rules Violation (Wreckdiver1715)
sorry....
done for the people of Bolivia,  
sorry....
DELETED – Forum Rules Violation (Wreckdiver1715)
sorry.....
the big guy and his dad.....    
come on now....
enough of the bull crap....

The COURT CASE is more a bunch of bull crap!

It is theater!

Pure and simple!  More money is being made in legal fees and stock swings
during the years of back and forth publicity being generated
than will ever be made in the sale the coins and artifacts recovered!

Governments continue to be organized crime....
And the guys within the government continue to attempt
to be the rats guarding the cheese all while
under the guise of
"protecting the public trust"
bull--deleted--!

and privateers continue to be privateers....

I agree Jeff. I imagine there is a heck of a lot of Spain's cultural heritage, treasure and monies that belongs to Central and South American countries that no matter what, they'll never see. I guess what really pisses me off is that Spain in all their arrogance simply won't admit that its all about money and greed. They are still trying to steal what they stole 500 years ago. Now, I know someone who sympathizes with Spain is about to ask me about my motivation. I'm not ashamed to say it's the treasure. As far as I'm concerned, all artifacts can go to the country of origin. If there is enough to go around, I'd even help out those countries in need. All I need is enough to not have to worry about the mortgage company foreclosing on my house and to continue the search. Gee, sounds kind of saintly doesn't it? St. John Aquanut. Now doesn't that have a nice ring to it? church bells....heavenly choirs...angel wings...

Aquanut

I am not quite sure this thread is ready for either me, my comments
or some honesty!

Correct me if I am wrong!  

Moderator Comment

LOL, while I may agree with most of your sentiments on this subject Dom, You are not wrong... (Wreckdiver1715)

I am not quite sure this thread is ready for either me, my comments
or some honesty!

Correct me if I am wrong!  

Moderator Comment

DELETED – Forum Rules Violation (Wreckdiver1715)

I agree Jeff. I imagine there is a heck of a lot of Spain's cultural heritage, treasure and monies that belongs to Central and South American countries that no matter what, they'll never see. I guess what really pisses me off is that Spain in all their arrogance simply won't admit that its all about money and greed. They are still trying to steal what they stole 500 years ago. Now, I know someone who sympathizes with Spain is about to ask me about my motivation. I'm not ashamed to say it's the treasure. As far as I'm concerned, all artifacts can go to the country of origin. If there is enough to go around, I'd even help out those countries in need. All I need is enough to not have to worry about the mortgage company foreclosing on my house and to continue the search. Gee, sounds kind of saintly doesn't it? St. John Aquanut. Now doesn't that have a nice ring to it? church bells....heavenly choirs...angel wings...

Aquanut

Did you say Money and greed? Yes the root of all evil ! Thank you, O Holy one
St John of Aquanut, Good luck with your Divine search
Ossy

OSSY, Gosh what made me think you might respond to my post.

Dom, bring it on! Some people here have been begging to hear from the likes of you.

Aquanut

Guys... Girls...   Fellow treasure hunters....
and all the rest of you out there...

The reason I have so much passion for this debate and the under laying issue
is I have lived - slept and ate it for over 25 years!...

Unbeknown to most, I sat in meetings back in the early 1990"s
in front of Ambassadors and Cultural Affairs Ministers of the Country's of Origin
Bolivia, Colombia, Peru and Mexico and discussed the concept of re- patriation
of artifacts and do you know what we all agreed upon.....?

The true story of the systematic stripping of cultural and natural resources of the
peoples and nations of origins was the real story and the platform to retell that story
is the true treasure we can bring to the present and future.....

I truly wish I could bring this story to the public eye more articulately or succinctly
how, a series of in bread "royal" families (look at their chins by philip the 4th)ruling
the, then called, the "spains" exterminated over eleven civilizations in the name of
"Jesus"  - while stripping a whole continent of its
apparent surface natural and valuable resources.....  

But, that was then....  and this is now....

As I grow older.... just attempting to blow some of the bull crap aside, while doing my small part
to help keep the age of discovery alive
seems enough for me
along with grabbing a little of my share
along the way....

Capt Dom,
Great post
Thanks

If there is enough to go around, I'd even help out those countries in need. All I need is enough to not have to worry about the mortgage company foreclosing on my house and to continue the search. Gee, sounds kind of saintly doesn't it? St. John Aquanut. Now doesn't that have a nice ring to it? church bells....heavenly choirs...angel wings...

Aquanut

Hey, I also have a mortgage and a kid to feed but not only I haven't been sending what I find to Spain (or Bolivia, or Peru, or India, or whatever) I also have not sold a thing. INA does it too... ;)

http://executive-magazine.com/getarticle.php?article=12835

Something like that could have be done when a shipwreck occurred close to Barbate, in Spain, some years ago. At that moment, a ship from Odyssey was in Gibraltar (an hour of navigation) with a high depth ROV aboard and another ship, belonging to the Spains Army and specifically prepared for underwater works at high depths was really close to the point of the shipwreck. The goal was to tie the shipwreck and pulling it to a shallow water zone. This two possibilities were dismissed (to say the truth, Odyssey´s possibility was no even considered) because the "political opportunity". The spanish Gov. contracted a ROV and some specialists. They spent almost a week trying to tie up the ship, that had some fisherman´s bodies inside and some prisoned on their nets. A very small and light ROV and a slight knowledge of the strong streams in the area were the main reasons for the long last recovery. Some of the bodies were never recovered. Not every body or Gov. like to ask help from a "treasure hunter" company. Not humanitarian reasons when a civilized Gov. have to show how tough it is against "pirates".

Its hard to understand exactly what it is your trying to say Trinidad, as the logical comment, after reading the news article that Jeff K posted is something like “Wow, how admirable an offer and a service Odyssey has performed for the Lebanese people, especially to the families of the victims whose bodies were located and recovered by the generous assistance that this company performed at no cost!”
After reading your post one can only feel shame for the Spanish government who would rather let the fishermen’s bodies rot in the ocean floor rather than ask a prominent company like Odyssey which had/has committed no crime (remember that the presumption of innocence does apply also in Spain) with the only concern in mind of helping the families of the deceased reach closure with their loss.

It is very surprising how the Spanish press (and several of its citizens) always refers to Odyssey in a despective way using “cazatesoros” as an insult. The truth be said Trinidad real “cazatesoros” as are depicted in the Spanish press don’t take their findings to an Admiralty judge and seldom operate under a government license. There is a great difference between a pirate or “cazatesoros” and a legitimate deep sea recovery enterprise that uses state of the art archeological practices and standards. Odyssey recovered some coins from international waters of what they and many of us believe was a commercial function of a military vessel that if the appellate courts overturn the present judgment, Odyssey will keep the coins and be vindicated; all those “cazatesoros” appellatives will prove to be the result of prejudice and too early a judgment with not enough evidence as the Spanish press has done.         

As far as the gold and silver, if Spain wanted it they should have gone and got it theirselves, they didn't mind taking it from the people originally.........

Finders Keepers when its in international waters ........

Its hard to understand exactly what it is your trying to say Trinidad, as the logical comment, after reading the news article that Jeff K posted is something like “Wow, how admirable an offer and a service Odyssey has performed for the Lebanese people, especially to the families of the victims whose bodies were located and recovered by the generous assistance that this company performed at no cost!”
After reading your post one can only feel shame for the Spanish government who would rather let the fishermen’s bodies rot in the ocean floor rather than ask a prominent company like Odyssey which had/has committed no crime (remember that the presumption of innocence does apply also in Spain) with the only concern in mind of helping the families of the deceased reach closure with their loss.

It is very surprising how the Spanish press (and several of its citizens) always refers to Odyssey in a despective way using “cazatesoros” as an insult. The truth be said Trinidad real “cazatesoros” as are depicted in the Spanish press don’t take their findings to an Admiralty judge and seldom operate under a government license. There is a great difference between a pirate or “cazatesoros” and a legitimate deep sea recovery enterprise that uses state of the art archeological practices and standards. Odyssey recovered some coins from international waters of what they and many of us believe was a commercial function of a military vessel that if the appellate courts overturn the present judgment, Odyssey will keep the coins and be vindicated; all those “cazatesoros” appellatives will prove to be the result of prejudice and too early a judgment with not enough evidence as the Spanish press has done.         

And if they loose Panfilo, What will you say then? At this Stage you have the US government and two judges agreeing
with Spain !
  And just to think, they are US judges ! Why didn't Odyssey file with a European court?
trinidad , I think he just hates the Spanish government, end of story. And he supports Odyssey
Ossy

As far as the gold and silver, if Spain wanted it they should have gone and got it theirselves, they didn't mind taking it from the people originally.........

Finders Keepers when its in international waters ........

See that's the problem Treasure Hunter, Spain specifically advised Odyssey to leave it be !! You guys didn't mine taking
North America from the Indians.
Ossy

Since it sank in the Atlantic Ocean in 1744 was found in international waters and Spain has not attempted to recover it, I don't see why claim is valid. They have only had 265 years to recover it.....

I guess in all fairness though, the Odyssey could charge a recovery fee for their work of say $500 million...

1804 to be precise, and it sank off the Portuguese coast, Just ask Claudio, Odyssey did get information from him.
Ossy

As far as I have read, there has been no conclusive proof it is from the Mercedes, it does not change the fact it was found in international waters, after laying there for 206 years (using the date 1804), or the fact the silver and gold was never Spains to begin with. 

Still say it belongs to Odyssey, and if in the final end it has to be turned over to Spain, Spain should owe a finders fee to Odyssey of at least $250 million. 50% is fair fee since Spain had not even tried to find and recover it or even have the ability to recover it.....

[or the fact the silver and gold was never Spains to begin with]

As far as I have read, there has been no conclusive proof it is from the Mercedes, it does not change the fact it was found in international waters, after laying there for 206 years (using the date 1804), or the fact the silver and gold was never Spains to begin with.  

Still say it belongs to Odyssey, and if in the final end it has to be turned over to Spain, Spain should owe a finders fee to Odyssey of at least $250 million. 50% is fair fee since Spain had not even tried to find and recover it or even have the ability to recover it.....

I am curious how it was determined the silver and gold was never Spain's to begin with?

Very good point SWR.
I just love the reasoning, YOU STOLE IT FIRST ! so we should keep it You didn't want it so we should keep it   And my favorite from Greg ( Odyssey ) they threw it over board  
How about the truth for a change guys !! I WANT IT ! SO I CAN MAKE LOTS OF MONEY, and if I can use any excuse to take the focus of me I will
Those bad Spaniards, they raped the land so it only fair that I keep it and profit from it !
So who owns all the gold in fort Knox America or the Red Indian? you raped them and their LANDS
Ossy

Ossy, basically, I dont hate spanish Gov. and  I dont support Odyssey. Or viceversa. It´s not a question of hate or support. I just want to know the most of the truth that I cant. A lot of lies in this case difficult its complet understanding. And I´ll try to not accept lies from my Gov. or from Odyssey. I wish I could see everything as clear as you do Ossy, but I cant.

Oh, the almost Native Americans were definitely given the shaft on many levels.  No one will dispute that.  However, it was the Spanish that took their gold and silver in the Southeast and Western parts of the current United States.  Just saying...    

Ossy, you say:
And just to think, they are US judges ! Why didn't Odyssey file with a European court?
trinidad , I think he just hates the Spanish government, end of story. And he supports Odyssey
Ossy

First, Odyssey didn’t take the coins to “a European court”  Ossy for the simple reason that the United States is the only country in the world, yes, in the world, that will accept jurisdiction on a wreck in international waters. A Spanish court will not; this is a crucial part of this problem that no Spanish reporter has figured out at this late point of the game. You are jumping to conclusions Ossy when you say I hate the Spanish government, nothing is farthest from the truth. I pride myself in my Spanish ancestry and heritage and I am an avid admirer of the present day Nation that has given you its nationality and most of all I love its people and adore its culture. But another thing is the arbitrary position taken by very few government officials in respect to this legal battle. I think it fair to say one can disagree with “the official Spanish government’s position regarding the Odyssey case” for moral, ethical and legal reasons and yet have great admiration and respect for its people, do you not agree Ossy?

My main problems here Ossy are basically two: first I resent the way the Spanish press has covered the story, they are the judges, the jury and Odyssey has been sentenced to death ever since the first day the story hit the news. They said, if you remember, that Odyssey had pillaged (“expolio”) the Mercedes from Spanish waters which we all know is not and was not the case. I have never seen a correction on this grave error, have you Ossy? The word “expolio” is used in every article on this story, quite a premature affirmation if you ask me. The second problem Ossy, and here you are also a participant, is that if indeed the Mercedes was on a commercial mission (and it was!) Spain wad no right to tell Odyssey to leave the Mercedes alone. You might want to read the Law of the Sea Convention and understand why this is so.   
Trinidad, you have said some very wise words today and it shows you have an open mind. Indeed, there have been a great deal of lies said here primarily by the Spanish press and by Spanish officials the most scandalous one being that the Mercedes was not on a commercial mission, which is the core essence of the Spanish legal claim on the Mercedes coins. Therefore this claim is deemed to collapse upon itself for lack of veracity or historical sustentation.     

Thank you Panfilo. I didn't know that the United States is the only country in the world that will accept jurisdiction on a wreck in international waters. But that being said, Why would two US judges back Spain's claim and agree it was a sovereign vessel
They have seen all the evidence, and of concern is exactly were in international waters was it found?
I'm sure when this is all over, we will all hopefully know the truth.
Panfilo I fully understand your points, And I can say that you know more about this that I do.
As you I love Spain and what concerns me is how the people on the Mercedes died, this was no shipwreck !
If they could talk, what would they say.
Ossy

Actually Ossy there has only been one judgment at this point of the legal process, US Admiralty courts work in a particular way, a “recommendation” is made and the judge makes his ruling so it would not be exact to say that two judges so far have ruled. Secondly it is believed by judicial experts that an appellate court will rule in a more strict interpretation of the law, more rigorous if I can use that word. If you read Article 96 of the United Nations Convention Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) you can verify that for a ship to be designated as a “Sovereign Vessel” it has to have been on a strictly military non commercial mission and we all know that the Mercedes was carrying personal cargo (one million coins belonging to private merchants) alpaca wool, women and children, many passengers, broken cannons, etc. Now if that is not a commercial mission Ossy, what is? If I were a betting man Ossy I would invest my retirement pension buying Odyssey stock now that they are cheap and make an incredible profit as it is inevitable that the present ruling be overturned if not by the appellate court by the Supreme Court.

The reason I have been so involved in this case is exactly because of what you have said, precisely how the people aboard the Mercedes would be feeling to know that their country is claiming for itself the hard earned money that they earned and paid taxes on and that in justice should belong to their legal descendants, their living heirs.
Feliz Semana Santa!

                                    Panfilo  

Thanks Panfilo, I think if i brought Odyssey shares, Jeff might have a heart attack
I'm sure we will all be waiting for the courts next move.
May you also have a safe and happy Easter
Ossy

1804 to be precise, and it sank off the Portuguese coast, Just ask Claudio, Odyssey did get information from him.
Ossy

More precisely, within the Portuguese contiguous zone, at 23 NM.

I tend to differ Alexandre with your 23 mile figure as that would place the wreck inside Portugal’s Contiguous Zone thereby giving this Nation full rights over the Mercedes, something that has not been presented in the legal proceedings in the Tampa courts. I believe the location of the wreck is closer to 30 nautical miles from the Base line, placing this wreck in Portugal’s EEZ and as we all know, according to UNCLOS III, the coastal nation does have rights over mineral resources here but not on wrecks. That is what the UNESCO Convention has tried to establish with very limited success. 

More precisely, within the Portuguese contiguous zone, at 23 NM.

First you said it was 40 nm, and now it's 23 nm. Make up your mind.   

More precisely, within the Portuguese contiguous zone, at 23 NM.

First you said it was 40 nm, and now it's 23 nm. Make up your mind.   

I think I did not said 40Nm before.

If I could speak freely, I would say that I had acess to better data - could it even be a request from Pepe Pons to the Portuguese Ambassador in Madrid? Back in 2007? That might be it...

[Pepe Pons]

More precisely, within the Portuguese contiguous zone, at 23 NM.

First you said it was 40 nm, and now it's 23 nm. Make up your mind.  

I think I did not said 40Nm before.

If I could speak freely, I would say that I had acess to better data - could it even be a request from Pepe Pons to the Portuguese Ambassador in Madrid? Back in 2007? That might be it...

http://www.merchantroyalshipwreck.c...spain_agreed_to_sussex_project.html

The same Jose Pons has negotiated with Gibraltar? And the same who called the Ateneo de Madrid "very concerned" about what we would say in the presentation of my book on the proceedings of Odyssey? Very interesting!

Alexandre... Does this look familiar? You posted it on the History Hunter site.

"Hi all, long time no see... I have been secluded away for the past week together with Portuguese and Spanish authorities brainstorming on our commom heritage.... I got one piece of information to share: this Black Swan site is 40 NM south of Cape Santa Maria, at c. 1320 meters deep."

It was a typo, surely I meant 40 km.

Online archaeology debate...

http://www.divernet.com/home_diving...8099/online_archaeology_debate.html

Wessex Archaeology report on the HMS Victory...

http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/reports/71070/hms-victory-1744

Times Article...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/ne...s/science/eureka/article7075435.ece

Great debate! Greg Stemm won hands down. The vote was 75% for commercial salvage and 25% for academic salvage. Mr Parham kept harping on OME's solvency, which has nothing to do with marine archaeology, and failed miserably to defend his deranged opinions.

Odyssey's new mining ship the "Dorado Discovery" is mentioned near the end of the article.

http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1n...esources/27.htm?skipFlashCheck=true

"....and failed miserably to defend his deranged opinions."

Yeah, I think he did a great job....

Stan

Odyssey's new mining ship the "Dorado Discovery" is mentioned near the end of the article.

http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1n...esources/27.htm?skipFlashCheck=true

Jeff, Interesting name ( Golden Discovery ) in Spanish, Take our gold and silver and our names
Try some good English names like the golden swan
Ossy

The Spanish names are more romantic. 

The Spanish names are more romantic.  

Can't argue with that
PS Jeff can you still buy (Mercedes) Black swan copy coins, they no longer list them. Could become collectors items.
I would like to get one.
Ossy

Ossy... As far as I know, they never put them on the market.

http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2010/04/26/daily5.html

I wish we could have, here in Spain, the same amount of information from public companies and agencies just clicking our Pc´s mouse.

Odyssey PR...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Odyss...ion-bw-1959354136.html?x=0&.v=1

8-K...

Item 1.01. Entry Into a Material Definitive Agreement. 

On April 28, 2010, Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (“Odyssey”) purchased 1,200 shares of Dorado Ocean Resources Limited (“Dorado”), a limited liability company incorporated in Hong Kong, for a purchase price of U.S.$2.0 million, pursuant to a Share Subscription Agreement that was executed and delivered on April 28, 2010, but has a stated effective date of April 1, 2010. Under the terms of the Share Subscription Agreement, Odyssey has the option to pay for this investment in cash or by providing marine services to Dorado over a three-year period. Dorado was formed for the purpose of participating in the business of subsea mineral exploration and mining. Odyssey also surrendered its five membership units in SMM Project, LLC, a Minnesota limited liability company (“SMM”), for 450 Dorado shares bringing Odyssey’s total ownership in Dorado to a 41.25% non-controlling interest.