Odyssey Marine Article...

Jeff what location was Spain given by Odyssey ? You  said at 1100 meters water depth.
The English Report on the battle had prior depth's taken, nothing like 1100 meters ?
So did Odyssey send them out to the deep knowing you would need an ROV ?
Do you  know If Spain have an ROV ? and if so I haven't heard if they have sent one out ? to verify the location.
Ossy

[You said at 1100 meters water depth]

Jeff what location was Spain given by Odyssey ? You  said at 1100 meters water depth.
The English Report on the battle had prior depth's taken, nothing like 1100 meters ?
So did Odyssey send them out to the deep knowing you would need an ROV ?
Do you  know If Spain have an ROV ? and if so I haven't heard if they have sent one out ? to verify the location.
Ossy

Ossy, something doesn't agree: 180 nautical miles west of Gibraltar is not 1100 meters, there are between 2500 and 3200 
 
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/22826040 / 
 
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europ...10/19/ww.treasurehunters/index.html

Claudio, very interesting, that deep ? the plot thickens.
We will hopfully find out the Truth one day

Ossy

[We will hopfully find out the Truth one day]

Claudio, very interesting, that deep ? the plot thickens.
We will hopfully find out the Truth one day
Ossy

Ossy, the lies, the same as the conspiracies have the legs (lives) short and the truth always comes out float. Those that were yesterday's allies can be today's enemies, and yesterday's enemies your allies for the future.

Florida Trend Article...

http://www.floridatrend.com/article...98&aID2=49811&mostread=true

"Odyssey says the Virginia case (Juno & Galga) isn’t a good parallel to the “Black Swan.” The Mercedes, the company says, was carrying mostly commercial cargo, eliminating Spain’s sovereign immunity claim. In any case, that claim applies to its vessel, which wasn’t found, not to cargo Spain didn’t own, Odyssey contends. Also, since the treasure was found in international waters, international law prevails rather than the particular United States law applied in the Virginia case."

http://www.europapress.es/andalucia...poliado-odyssey-20081004121504.html

http://tinyurl.com/3vmtfl

If Odyssey brought up coins dated 1803-04, then how could they come from a ship sunk in 1801?   

Gibraltar Chronicle...

UK COULD BE ENTITLED TO £1.5M SLICE OF ODYSSEY TREASURE
by Brian Reyes
The British Government could be entitled to a £1.5m slice of the controversial treasure raised by Odyssey Marine Exploration last year, according to several sources with close knowledge of the case.


British government lawyers are considering filing a claim after learning that England paid compensation to a Spanish noble who lost his family and belongings on the Spanish galleon Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes, which was sunk by English ships in 1804.
Although Odyssey cannot confirm this, Spain believes the treasure came from the Mercedes and the company concedes it is a possibility.
If the wreck is firmly identified, the British Government could be in for a minor windfall should it opt to reclaim the compensation paid by England in the early 1800s.
“It is just common sense law applied to all instances where an insurance company or a third party pays something off,” said one source.
Historical records show that the noble, Diego de Alvear, lost his wife, seven children and possessions when the Spanish galleon sank off Portugal.
He was later compensated with around £6,000 by the English – half of what he lost - because the attack on the Mercedes took place in peace time.
In theory that sum could now be worth as much as £1.5m, one official said.
Should Britain go ahead with the claim, the exact figure will ultimately be determined by the US court hearing the case and will be based on multiple complex factors. De Alvear’s descendants may also seek to file a claim.
Peru has already signalled its intention to stake a claim over the treasure on the basis that the gold and silver coins on the Mercedes were minted in Lima using metals mined in the Andes.
Additionally, historical records published by Spanish newspaper El Pais show that the Mercedes was carrying coins belonging to 130 Spanish merchants.
The descendants of those merchants may now be entitled to request their share of the haul.
Odyssey disputes that there is sufficient evidence to confirm that the treasure came from the Mercedes, though it admits this is a possibility.
On that basis, it said there may be more claimants yet to come forward and asked the court to set a deadline for them to register any interest. The company has always said it would welcome legitimate claims.
“There’s lots of research available publicly that says more than two-thirds of the cargo was private merchant cargo,” said Mark Gordon, Odyssey’s president, in a recent interview with the Tampa Tribune. “We can tell you who put it on, and we can tell you who was expecting it.”
“We have always made the contention that there are multiple potential claimants in a case like this because it was transporting goods for a lot of different people,” Mr Gordon added. “Spain is saying it’s solely theirs.”
In a court filing last month, Spain argued that the Mercedes was a Spanish warship and therefore protected by sovereign immunity laws.
Spain had never abandoned the wreck and Odyssey had no permission to work there, Spain’s lawyers said in the 36-page document.
“Odyssey’s pending claims in this case seek to assert rights over the shipwreck of a warship of the Royal Spanish Navy,” they said.
“The gravesite of military personnel who died in the service of their nation may not be subjected to unauthorized and covert exploitation for private profit, as Odyssey well knows.”
The US company rejected the accusations and has until November to file an official response with the court.

http://tinyurl.com/3vmtfl

If Odyssey brought up coins dated 1803-04, then how could they come from a ship sunk in 1801?   

Jeff, nobody discusses the year of coinage of the currencies, the question it is, where they were found, and certainly, the Mercedes is not 100-180 miles west of Gibraltar. The historical research and their nautical data demonstrate this way it.

Quote: UK COULD BE ENTITLED TO 1.5M POUNDS OF ODYSSEY TREASURE
Jeff you got to be kidding :icon_scratch:British government lawyers considering filing a claim for some compensation paid ! after the
English royal navy killed his family ! I love to be in court for this one.
Let's get all the facts, the English attacked four Spanish royal frigates, distroyed one killing 250 people !
then under force while killing and maiming stole the other three frigates, which has silver gold and other goods.
Then English crown sold the goods and put the frigates into there service. And they want compensation
I hope England does put in a claim, then Spain can counter sue ! And image the family's of the people that were killed by the
English crown. and then  we can start with the merchants. The 1.5M pounds would not even cover the lawyers charges!
All this other nonsense takes the focus of the facts that are coming to light
Odyssey after years of reseach has knowingly taken what is not theirs, and in Portuguese waters !
Ossy

Ossy, not only this: they also captured, without declared war, other ships with money.

So the Spanish want back the gold and silver they looted from Peru. Thats like the former Nazi's of Germany asking for the treasures that Herman Goering stole from the Jews.

Come on Pete, the Red Indians would like their land back too, but its not going to happen is it.
The Dutch, the British the French and a few other have done the same many times over.

We cannot compare what happened hundreds of years ago, to today.

OMEX have done the same with their night flight from Gibraltar, hoping to keep their spoils, relying on the American law system to protect them, but there are other courts after the American court system that will more than likely decide this expensive farce.

Personally I do not think either side deserves the award but one side will eventually get it. It is a war of attrition and I know who has the most money, and resources. One sovereign, who has an allegedly dubious past history and one corporate whose management also has an allegedly dubious past history.

Its a good soap to watch but the damage to the rest of the TH world cannot be calculated. Personally I wish it had never happened. There are to many brick walls to try to open these days, I have stopped trying to open them.

On another note, Claudio I wonder why you even bother to try to talk about the subject, as it is a blind alley here among a lot of the guys here on, there are many other forms of media to pass your invaluable information.

Scuba, so all the Spanish coins and artifacts you find ,you then give back to Peru ? yea right !
You must have your own standards. You should read some of your own American history !
As people we are all the same. Good and Bad ! Greed and Pirates are still alive and well .
Ossy

[On another note, Claudio I wonder why you even bother to try to talk about the subject, as it is a blind alley here among a lot of the guys here on, there are many other forms of media to pass your invaluable information.]

Come on Pete, the Red Indians would like their land back too, but its not going to happen is it.
The Dutch, the British the French and a few other have done the same many times over.

We cannot compare what happened hundreds of years ago, to today.

OMEX have done the same with their night flight from Gibraltar, hoping to keep their spoils, relying on the American law system to protect them, but there are other courts after the American court system that will more than likely decide this expensive farce.

Personally I do not think either side deserves the award but one side will eventually get it. It is a war of attrition and I know who has the most money, and resources. One sovereign, who has an allegedly dubious past history and one corporate whose management also has an allegedly dubious past history.

Its a good soap to watch but the damage to the rest of the TH world cannot be calculated. Personally I wish it had never happened. There are to many brick walls to try to open these days, I have stopped trying to open them.

On another note, Claudio I wonder why you even bother to try to talk about the subject, as it is a blind alley here among a lot of the guys here on, there are many other forms of media to pass your invaluable information.

Cablava, this is only an advance of the whole truth. It lacks the juiciest part.

Sight of Santa Maria cape from a nautical chart of the Spanish Navy  having used in 1804.
 
A) Montefigo to the North 14º 30' East distances 7 leagues [21 miles]   

More information about this trial.

http://www.europapress.es/andalucia...poliado-odyssey-20081004121504.html

Amona

Spain reimbursed the consignees of the Mercedes' load 
ABC today

http://www.abcdesevilla.es/20081013...mnizo-duenos-privados-20081013.html

http://www.abc.es/20081013/cultura-...nen-derechos-defender-20081013.html

That's good new. Just more proof that the Mercedes had commercial cargo on board. 

That's good new. Just more proof that the Mercedes had commercial cargo on board

That is not what this article say? Read again if you read in spanish!!

Poor Odyseey

Amona

Sent my own words to the powers that be!!

HHHH

That's good new. Just more proof that the Mercedes had commercial cargo on board. 

Jeff why would the Spanish crown pay out if it was a commercial ship you need to read the article carefully.
more proof that it was a Royal Frigate ! OMR should start packing the coins back up, for return to its Rightful owner SPAIN !!!!!!!!
Ossy

Jeff why would the Spanish crown pay out if it was a commercial ship  you need to read the article carefully.
more proof that it was a Royal Frigate ! OMR should start packing the coins back up, for return to its Rightful owner SPAIN !!!!!!!!
Ossy

Ossy

What happen is jeff like others guys in this forum are "Odyseey's advocate",have stocks invested in Odyseey or just they identified themself with Odyseey because are Floridian and have the same business but what they don't know is most of them are in the "wrong" business, therefore they don't really care what that article in that Spanish newspaper say.

This business is very delicated when you going to work it because you have to deal with valuable item belonging to somebody else before you were born and it does matter what happen in the past or how that treasure was lost "still" the owner exist.

Sunshine state: Miami, Orlando, MGM,Disney,...waooo

Amona

Ossy and Amona:  I believe that concerning this thread I'm fairly neutral. If you strip this argument to its basic form, how can you possibly want or think Spain is entitled to anything?  The fundamental point is Spain had no hand in finding it.  Are you actually suggesting that after what Odyssey went through, in terms of money, research, and time, they just turn it over to your team? 21st century Spain has lost nada. 21st century Spain has invested into the recovery nada. 19th century Spain cannot be reimbursed for its loss. A cutting edge company found the "LOST" 19th century treasure, case closed. Everything said in addition to this basic premise is paint on the wall.

Ossy and Amona:  I believe that concerning this thread I'm fairly neutral. If you strip this argument to its basic form, how can you possibly want or think Spain is entitled to anything?  The fundamental point is Spain had no hand in finding it.  Are you actually suggesting that after what Odyssey went through, in terms of money, research, and time, they just turn it over to your team? 21st century Spain has lost nada. 21st century Spain has invested into the recovery nada. 19th century Spain cannot be reimbursed for its loss. A cutting edge company found the "LOST" 19th century treasure, case closed. Everything said in addition to this basic premise is paint on the wall.

Boone...., is to focus the whole matter from a legal point of view, not mercantile. The questions are: have propietor the load ? Who is? Where it was opposing really (because the mathematics of Odyssey is very strange and 100 nm = beyond 200 nm in international waters)? 
And the most important thing: what shipwreck was really extracted?

Boone you obviously believe in piracy :icon_pirate: you need to read some history on the Mercedes
Just because you can take some thing does not make it yours mate ! that's what pirates do !!!!
Odyssey knew the risk they where taking  and gamble on it ! The game is up for Odyssey.
All they will get is NADA !!!!! not one Spanish coin, that's right Spanish coins !!!!!! with their coat of arms !!!!
Ossy

boonestone wrote

Ossy and Amona:  I believe that concerning this thread I'm fairly neutral. If you strip this argument to its basic form, how can you possibly want or think Spain is entitled to anything?  The fundamental point is Spain had no hand in finding it.  Are you actually suggesting that after what Odyssey went through, in terms of money, research, and time, they just turn it over to your team? 21st century Spain has lost nada. 21st century Spain has invested into the recovery nada. 19th century Spain cannot be reimbursed for its loss. A cutting edge company found the "LOST" 19th century treasure, case closed. Everything said in addition to this basic premise is paint on the wall.

The point is not "who is able to find" but "who has the right to claim". Beside, Odyseey made it in the wrong way.Odyssey is in the wrong business. Odyssey only thing to get rich, no matter "HOW".When you do something like they did remove and bring from Europe $500M in spanish coins without deal with any country,that action let you know what they want, how they want it no matter where they find it.

What happen here is (without personal insult) here in this forum the most shipwreck finder are from Florida, of course, they support Odyssey, but thanks to Odyssey's action and other issues,those shipwreck finder from Florida are paying the consequence with the new 1A-31 rule.

In 1989, I lost from a tug boat of Crowley Maritime, a "Sony digital walkman" in the middle of the Atlantic ocean. I don't have money to buy a robot, a boat, pay divers. If Odyssey find my walkman that play tape, sure I will claim my right over that walkman.

Amona

Vox: The location of the find is either in international waters or not. Unfortunately, attorneys armed with decisions made by politicians with their own questionable agendas, are going to argue before a judge who could have his own political leanings. Basically,  its a large guano sandwich and everyone has to take a bite. My question to you Sir is: if the treasure is deemed to lay in international waters, is it then property of Odyssey?   Ossy:Your argument has NADA merit since Spain pirated the coins to begin with. As to the outcome of the court case, gambling just happens to be one of my vices, so why don't we escrow an agreed on amount with the winner taking all.   Amona:  Again, Odyssey contends the treasure is in international waters. If they had turned it over to Spain it would have been, quite possibly, one of the worst business decisions in the history of our Country. As far as Odyssey getting rich, thats what American companies do, they try to succeed. Shareholders can be an angry bunch and more importantly, its Odysseys' obligation to make a profit, not to find treasure then give it away.

Vox: The location of the find is either in international waters or not. Unfortunately, attorneys armed with decisions made by politicians with their own questionable agendas, are going to argue before a judge who could have his own political leanings. Basically,  its a large guano sandwich and everyone has to take a bite. My question to you Sir is: if the treasure is deemed to lay in international waters, is it then property of Odyssey?   

boone... , the article 149 of the UNCLOS says textually:
 
http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convent...greements/texts/unclos/unclos_e.pdf 

About the AREA 
Article 149 
Archaeological and historical objects 
All objects of an archaeological and historical nature found in the Area 
shall be preserved or disposed of for the benefit of mankind ace to whole, 
particular regard being paid to the preferential rights of the State or country 
of origin, or the State of cultural origin, or the State of historical and 
archaeological origin. 
 
It is very strange that the Spanish culture minister few days of the announcement of the discovery without nobody, except for Odyssey knew the place, she will affirm flatly that the recovery happened in international waters. This removed many headaches and it still avoided responsibilities to determine on the court. 
The place of the discovery went to 100 nm west of Gibraltar (officially) but all the media, without it is known why and how, said 180 nm. In any event be 100 or 180 we continue inside the area.   
But the most absurd thing is that the Mercedes it's few miles of the Portuguese coast and all this is a simple and vulgar farce.

Amona:  Again, Odyssey contends the treasure is in international waters. If they had turned it over to Spain it would have been, quite possibly, one of the worst business decisions in the history of our Country. As far as Odyssey getting rich, thats what American companies do, they try to succeed. Shareholders can be an angry bunch and more importantly, its Odysseys' obligation to make a profit, not to find treasure then give it away

1. International water,...Court will determine last decision.
2. Of course, worst business decision because they are in the wrong.It isn't the first time Odyssey is in court.
3. If you want to make profit in your business, do it right.
4. Of course, Odyssey doesn't give away treasure, they take it, you're right in that point.

Like I said before,when you're in treasure hunting you have to deal with valuable items owned for somebody before you were born and coordinate with proper countries before remove it doesn't matter is it in international water or not. If you don't start from that point, but greed spirit to fulfill your bank account, you're in the wrong business because only you will gain headache on court.

By the way, if you're a shipwreck finder, you should be more worry about the 1A-31 rather Odyssey's trial, I should

Amona

Vox veritas

Greeting

Vox, don't waist your time trying to convince those guys, they see this trial as another war between "Spanish vs.English", as Patriotic act. They don't respect all souls of all men died drowned these day when Mercedes went down to the botton sea.The $500M represent all those souls.

Amona

Amona: That statment about the 500m representing the souls of the men might be in the top five all-time crocs of guano. You actually think thats why Spain wants the money,to perhaps placate the souls of the lost men? Put the pipe down. Spain is simply throwing bait in the water hoping the U. S. Courts bite. I'll bet my life not one penny would reach anyone connected to the Mercedes. They simply are trying to benefit from someone elses hard work. Obviously, I say this only if the treasure was found in international waters. One last thing, I wonder what Spain did for all the souls that were lost that day. I'm thinking nada.

Vox, here is the part I don't understand. If the Mrecedes is just off the coast of Portugual and Spain knows this, why did they not get the coins themselves?

Boone we can fire broadside's at each other all day long ! You obviously don't care for any history
Show me the money !!! 8 reale's don't fit into slot machines ! Instead of wondering about things take the time
to research them ! you may learn a few more Spanish words. http://www.abc.es/ 20081013/cultura.

Scuba, good point I would like to know as well. This may be Spain's wake up call.
Ossy

Ossy and Amona: I truly wish I was fluent in Spanish, it's a beautiful language. Unfortunately I've used the only two words that I know in todays previous posts. Your guys English is quite good, which brings me up to this next point. I feel that in our particular dicussion today, I'm  certain that the points I am trying to make get lost in the translation. I believe when you reply to my post it's as though you are answering someone else. It's probably mostly my fault since I can't read Spanish. Anyway I've tried to make my point of view simple but, I do not think it quite worked . Good Luck to the both of you.

Boone, your entitled to your opinion like any body Else , I speak the Queens English and the Kings Spanish.
I have been to your beautiful country and to Pear Harbour where I gave my respects to your young men
who died defending your nation ! This is some of your American History. Just as the Mercedes is Spanish History.
there is more to it, than Odyssey selling coins on eBay.
Cheers mate ! Ossy

Hi All,

I have been reading this thread for a long time. I have the following thoughts on the:


1: I understand the need to preserve cultural heritage, but coins are species ie. identical. Why would you need all the coins for museum displays? If they are seen as national treasure, they present no monetary value, since they can never be sold, yet the money it cost to preserve them will take away ressources needed for saving other items, buildings etc. Maybe its better for the rest of Spains cultural heritage that they only receive a share of the loot;).
2: Many companies are profitting from recovering and saving history. Just think of what it cost to restore a painting or a historical building, why is that you are so strongly believe that shipwreck salvors should get nada? They take a risk that neither the government or profit orientated contractor working on restoring historical buildings would ever take.
3: 100nM or 180nM issue. 100nM equals 185 kms - what are the chances that some journalist got that mixed up?
4: Spain is a pirates nest. Even today they try to steal gold on the high seas - just look how they fought us(Denmark) to get our gold from the 49 races in the olympic this summer ;)

/V

4: Spain is a pirates nest. Even today they try to steal gold on the high seas - just look how they fought us(Denmark) to get our gold from the 49 races in the Olympic this summer ;)

/V
[/quote]  Voldbjerg sorry, what are you on about
Ossy

4: Spain is a pirates nest. Even today they try to steal gold on the high seas - just look how they fought us(Denmark) to get our gold from the 49 races in the Olympic this summer ;)

/V

  Voldbjerg sorry, what are you on about
Ossy
[/quote]
It was meant as a joke - the story is as follows:

Before the olympic finals at the 49(small fast sailboat) race, the danish team had a big lead to the competitors. All they had to come in as number seven out of 12(i think) to win gold.
A few minutes before the start, the danish boat breaks the mast. They could not fix it before start so they borrow the croatian teams boat.
They pass the start line several minutes after the rest of the boats.
Durring the hard weather many boats got in trouble but the danish worked its way up the ladder.
They securered a position good enough to win the gold medal.
Spain won silver.
Spain wanted gold so the complained and brought the case to the olympic court room and claimed that the danes should be disqualified because they where not using their own boat. Court ruled in favor of denmark.

The point is: if spain cannot win fair and square on the water - they take it to court. one might argue that is what happening in the odessey case;)

On topic: Ossy - do you think its within spains interest to bully every salvor finding a shipwreck coin or artifact? The way I see it - they have a mutural interest in the treasure and should work together. Fact is that spain would never put a fleet survey ships on the oceans in order to find its lost treasure - they should work with salvors to the benefit of both.

/V

Voldbjerg, I do agree that the salvor's should work with Spain, if it's a Spanish ship, Problem is, all of them what to keep
it for themself's 100%.
Spain should get off it's back side and invest on it's own archeology and recovery ships to prevent any more looting of
it's ships. I would like to see a workable solution for all , so everybody can enjoy History.
Personally i would love to see the money used to rebuild some of these great ship's like the Atocha, etc
so we can all enjoy the past, some people only see the money side of things ,but it is worthless without the
History
Ossy

Voldbjerg wrote:

1: I understand the need to preserve cultural heritage, but coins are species ie. identical.

Thanks for this statement because Mr.Boonstone and others here in this forum need to be educated about "cultural heritage". The $500M coins that Odyssey took from the bottom of the sea not only means $money, it's more than that, represent a cultural heritage including the memories of all mariners drowned.
If for Boonstone this point doesn't means for him, I can understand,Treasure hunting for him = $$$$$$,... it doesn't matter if it is destroyed the cultural heritage,patrimony or the memories of people died in that event when the ship sank.

My understanding is those Odyssey's advocate should spent more time to be worry about the economy,wall street getting rich more and more,forclosure,bad credit, closing banks rather Odyssey win a trial.

I'm a professional treausre hunter.I'm very open mind when I go to explore and find a possible treasure,because whatever I find somebody could claim with rights and I have to share whatever I find. I wouldn't pretend to go to the court, spend money in lawyers just to have the chance to win a trial.Just think about it 

Amona

I can't believe I'm responding to this crock, but here goes...

You seem to assume that if someone wants to make money, then there's no interest in cultural heritage. So with that logic, restaurant owners must hate food since they strive to make money. All business owners must hate people and be very selfish since they hope to make a profit. Gimme a break. Why can't we preserve cultural heritage and make money while doing it? If archies would get this, we wouldn't be in the mess they've provoked upon their respective gov'ts. So are they do archaeological work with no expectation for compensation? Hardly. Why should Odyssey be any different?

And stop trying to push emotional buttons with the "dead sailors" crap. Odyssey brought up cargo; they didn't dig up a cemetery. There were no bodies contained in a hull to be moved or disturbed. The sailors' remains and the ship are long gone.

NOTE: Jeff, feel free to erase all this distraction from the Odyssey news it was intended to be

Darren... Well said. Odyssey was always willing to share their discoveries with Spain, but unfortunately, there are some in Spain that can't see past their nose. As far as cultural heritage is concerned, if I were Hispanic I wouldn't be so proud of what my ancestors did in the New World.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3184668.stm

I can't believe I'm responding to this crock, but here goes...

You seem to assume that if someone wants to make money, then there's no interest in cultural heritage. So with that logic, restaurant owners must hate food since they strive to make money. All business owners must hate people and be very selfish since they hope to make a profit. Gimme a break. Why can't we preserve cultural heritage and make money while doing it? If archies would get this, we wouldn't be in the mess they've provoked upon their respective gov'ts. So are they do archaeological work with no expectation for compensation? Hardly. Why should Odyssey be any different?

i see you kinda mentality enough to diving for some cannon balls. Don't compare "restaurant business" with archaeology. treasure hunting is into this category of excavate for the past,......past means "what the men did". that's heritage culture.THE WAY THAT ODYSSEY REMOVE THE $500M COINS IT IS NOT THE PROPER WAY ACCORDING WITH A MODERN MARINE ARCHEOLOGY PROCEDURE.May be you have your butts shaking due the new 1A-31???

Amona

Amona, if you can't see the restaurant metaphor for the sake of comparison, then I guess we can end our little exchange now. I've seen your "discussions" on other forums as well as here. Your response is crafted to lure me into an endless, pointless diatribe that gives you a needed audience, but will get us nowhere. Thanks, but no thanks. I think everyone has had a full orientation of your views. Thanks for sharing your professional side of the debate with us. We'll move on back to our meager cannonballs and legal wrangling with Florida. Sigh...

One other point to bring up. Spain could not care less for cultural heritage. They just want the $$$$! When Spain was expanding the harbor at Cadiz, Robert Marx pointed out that there were four 16th century shipwrecks buried in the sediment and he offered to excavate them. Spain said no and continued to bury the wrecks under tons of rubble!
    Another thing I can not understand: There are three Spanish warships currently being salvaged by treasure hunters in Ecuador. Why doesn't Spain claim these ships? Ecuador is a signee to the UNESCO Convention on UCH.

Darren in NC wrote

Your response is crafted to lure me into an endless, pointless diatribe that gives you a needed audience, but will get us nowhere.

Dear Daren

 Never ever you've been agreed with my point of view, no matter what is the topic or subject to comment. You and I have opposite thought regarding my opinion and post here, you now what? this is a public forum, while this forum be public I will keep posting my opinions here. The audience you talk about is here posting everyday, reading my post.

Again:keep worry about 1A-31 because,..maybe you and your partners in your "aquatic group" have to switch business there, why not switch for a Sea food restaurant in Clear Water,Florida? You could hang your MD in the wall like Hard Rock cafe hang pics of the Beatles.

regard

Amona

Darren... Well said. Odyssey was always willing to share their discoveries with Spain, but unfortunately, there are some in Spain that can't see past their nose. As far as cultural heritage is concerned, if I were Hispanic I wouldn't be so proud of what my ancestors did in the New World.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3184668.stm

Jeff i can't believe you support Chavez ! this guy is a mad man Your lucky he does not have Neuks, his passion and
hatred of the US is beyond his hatred of the Spanish !
Are your ancestors native Indians ? other wise you may need to refresh your memory on your ancestors !
Please lets keep to the facts, instead of attacking each other's nationality, 
Back to ship wrecks, I have some great photo's of the Dutch ship the Dyufken 1606 replica which i was on, I will hopfully post soon.
Ossy

[You make comments about the site being a "gravesite" but yet you support the salvage of other wrecks that people died on as well. Kind of hippocritical in my opinion.]

....THE WAY THAT ODYSSEY REMOVE THE $500M COINS IT IS NOT THE PROPER WAY ACCORDING WITH A MODERN MARINE ARCHEOLOGY PROCEDURE.
Amona

You know good and well this is not about Archaeology, this is about sovereignty and the rights to the cargo!  Your point is way off base.

Spain is just mad because they whisked it away before they could get their grubby little hands on it.  Odyssey has done everything possible to try and work with them.

Amona, your opinions have long been known here in the shipwreck forum since you started posting about Odyssey.  You are very much against Odyssey and you like to stir the pot a little.  Nothing wrong with that!  You do seem to be for Shipwreck Salvage though, at least after reading through some of your old post under your profile. 

So whats up?  Why this hatred for Odyssey?  Not everyone here holds stock in Odyssey.  Me for example!  I just believe in what they are doing. 

You make comments about the site being a "gravesite" but yet you support the salvage of other wrecks that people died on as well.  Kind of hippocritical in my opinion.

You make comments about Archaeology, but yet you seem to support private salvage.  Just not Odyssey for some reason!  Maybe if your comments were consistent across the board, you could make a better argument!

Again:keep worry about 1A-31 because,..maybe you and your partners in your "aquatic group" have to switch business there, why not switch for a Sea food restaurant in Clear Water,Florida? You could hang your MD in the wall like Hard Rock cafe hang pics of the Beatles.
Amona

As for comments like this, I know you are just stirring up sh!t, looking for a fight, and it is not needed!  It has nothing to do with the topic at hand and is basically an insult. 

Lets keep the discussion civilized.  Your post are always welcome as this is a public forum.

Robert

You know good and well this is not about Archaeology, this is about sovereignty and the rights to the cargo!  Your point is way off base

It's part of it, don't separate both disipline, sovereignty and archeology goes together when you working in a salvage. That's stupidy

Spain is just mad because they whisked it away before they could get their grubby little hands on it.  Odyssey has done everything possible to try and work with them

Odyssey did it wrong since the beginning. PERIOD!! nothing personal against Odyssey or "hatred" it just opposite thought againts what they did. PERIOD!!
Mel Fisher and others comapany made other salvages before and I congra. them.
 

You make comments about the site being a "gravesite" but yet you support the salvage of other wrecks that people died on as well.  Kind of hippocritical in my opinion.

Of course, I do when salvor do it right with all respect and according with all laws. Of course I agree, I like shipwreck hunting as well cache hunting but i don't support when salvor only think to do it according with theirs "greed feeling". By the way, the comment about "hippocrital" it doesn't "stick" to me because I'm very honest and straight with my post here.

As for comments like this, I know you are just stirring up sh!t, looking for a fight, and it is not needed!  It has nothing to do with the topic at hand and is basically an insult. 

Lets keep the discussion civilized.  Your post are always welcome as this is a public forum.

This topic started very civilized in the beginnig but people that support Odyssey "started fire" with comments about cultural and other subject out of blue.So if you want respect be the first one to support it, DOESN'T MATTER IS WHITE, BLACK,SPAIN OR ODYSSEY.

regard

Amona

Wolves disguised of lambs !!

[Read this if you want, if not,....]

Wolves disguised of lambs !!

Read this if you want, if not,....

You know what?  I compare Odyssey with Joe the "plumber" because in this forum there is two parties struggling for who will win the big prize of $500M, meanwhile the real Odyssey is suffering in Tampa how to pay for more than 12 months of trial, attorneys and others expense.It's sad but it is true.I know there is folks here that think I hate Odyssey, that is bull $hit, I hate actions that violating the identity of some country or some race just to get more rich some commercial salvor business.I don't know personally the Odyssey's owner, regardless, I don't care who can be and I know many people here in this forum hate Spain, that's doubtless, so don't criticize me.

Old coins is not only coins, it 's more that that definition,it is history,it's cultural heritage, it's a visual representation about the past, how the people lived before to our fathers, it's the proof of many people (south America) were exploited and killed to mint that old coin,... That is heritage culture,...the mirror of the past, not the hopefully of my financial future.

Whoever think or believe I hate somebody here in Treasurenet or any institution like Odyssey is fully wrong.I offer my friendship to anyone.If I have to help anybody in any personal need, I will. If I have to protest for something I think is fully unfair I will as well, it's my right as natural citizen of this country.Protest and hate are to terms or definition totally difference.

Soon in the future will be determined who will gain the trial in Tampa (I'm not updated), If Odyssey or Spain. If Odyssey gain this trial,the $500 M of coins will stay in US to 'get fat' more and more the stocks and get more stockholders.If Spain gain, the trip of those $500 M of coins will be finished in some Spanish harbor and set in the proper place, in a museum.

Apologize if somebody was insulted due my past comments,it wasn't intentionally,sometime p$$$ me off the kind of mentality of some folks here.

Amona

Note:
Mr. moderator, if you like to delete this thread, if you understand have to be deleted, go ahead. I just want to be clear.
regard

One other point to bring up. Spain could not care less for cultural heritage. They just want the $$$$!

Scubasalvor,

I don't think youre right about their profit orientation. Spain would never be able to profit from selling the coins and the obligation of restoring and displaying them would actually put quite a dent in their nations budget. I think the problem is that they don't like that companies are profitting and "disrespecting" what they view as their glorious past. Just think what would happen if someone salvage the cannons of Bonhomme Richard and sold them on ebay - that would cause similar feelings in the US. The problem is you have a profit vs pride situation.

My personal believe is that if it was just a coin depot which will add nothing in terms of historical knowledge. Archeology is mainly a science where finds are interpreted and related to a context. Here we just have a money pile - no wreck and therefore no context. If the collection of coins does not bring up surprises then I cant realy see them as sacred cultural heritage - its just coins. Give spain and former colonies a share of coins for displaying and sell the rest for profit if desired. Just my two cents.

/V

Gentlemen! As MODERATOR, I have been watching this post very closely. I would like to caution everyone that the direction this thread is heading does concern me. Primarily because the last time this subject got heated, I was forced to ban several long term members of this forum.
Every members opinions are valued in this discussion, regardless of the position they are taking concerning Odyssey Marine. I just don't want to see this conversation denigrate into a shouting match with everyone hurling insults back and forth.

Tom

Amona, this won't surely like the unconditional followers of Odyssey, because the truths of this company uncover them other and we know them for third people:

http://81.19.103.161/21-11-2007+man...aso_odyssey,noticia_1img,10,12,4605

Well said Boldbjerg Would Spain sell the coin's on eBay if they win, NO they would not !
Question is? what would Spain do with so many coins, that are all basically all the same, sure gold is gold
and silver is silver but its not what the metal worth, it's the history attached to the coin's, that's what Odyssey would
push ! they already created their own sea salvage grading from their last recovery which does not exist in
the numaristic world of coin's.
So here's a twist for every body, Spain and Odyssey have already done the deal Odyssey will take the
lion share, Spain a small token for it's museum, but here's the twist they will share the profit's ! they got the whole world
interested in the court battle, but i call this advertising your product ! I have the same coin's ( silver ) dated 1798 in extra fine
condition and only paid $50 Australian and it's not sea salvage.
So it may be a good time to buy odyssey shares !
Its sad ,but it what makes the world go round ,MONEY!!
Ossy

Good afternoon Ladies & gentlemen:   I have avoided entering into this discussion, but I find myself asking a few questions which haven't been adequately addressed.

A) Just how many coins do "all of the Museums" in Spain actually need for Historical / Archaeological presentation?  Any more than this is entering into a mercenary condition,  GREED, since none of the money will ever be spent  on furthering archaeological explorations for more artifacts.

B)  As for being a monument to the deceased, if this is carried to it's logical conclusion, all of Spain, europe, and most of the world has remenants of deceased people and so should not be touched,  correct?  In actuality their sacredness  is dictated by $$$$$$$$.

If so, then the idea not salvaging  and leaving a sunken wreck as a monument to the lost sailors is a hipocritical fallacy.  One well tended central monument, somewhere in the world, would be sufficient.

This ignores the benefit of putting that money back into circulation, which eventually will benefit many

I fail to see the logic of not salvaging any and all wrecks or land deposits.  Humanity eventually benefits, a form of recycling ..

Don Jose de La Mancha

["SideImagingSoft.com - Humminbird Side Imaging Forums"]

Amona,

Your points are well taken and are all very valid and I certainly think you expressed your opinion well.  But how can you say that Odyssey taking these coins is wrong ethically, and salvaging a Spanish vessel say in the Domincan Republic is OK.  You really cant have it both ways.

If this vessel was 5, 50 or even 500 miles off the coast of the US, would it change your opinion on who should get the coins?  Would it make a difference if the shipwreck and coins Odyssey found was say, English or Dutch and in Spanish waters?

I guess my point is, you seem to be playing both sides of the fence.  Don't get me wrong, I think you have to stand up for what you believe in and I am not trying to suppress your opinions!  But I also believe that you have to apply the same standards you impose on others to yourself as well. 

I certainly think we can discuss this topic in an intelligent manner and not throw punches at each other. 

Anyway, I have been informed that it seems the main moderator over at the other Treasure Forum likes to peak in here and look for any drama he can find to post over there.  From what I understand, I have been heading up this whole topic and I am the root of all evil over here at Tnet.  LOL

Respectfully,

RGecy

[if Odyssey had notified to Spain and England about those $500M coins before remove, I would support 100% to Odyseey with My comments.]

RGecy

With all those issues about Odyssey, 1A-31 and others, I believe Salvor like you and others in Florida should pay attention about your future because Governments like Florida state are watching everything what happen with Odyssey's trial and they're taking decision about the treasure hunting's future, at least in Florida. No matter if Odyssey is right or not, behind Government are those guys called "Archaeologists". Those guy are not quite happy with us regarding of what we want or the way we want it.(exception when they need us then they call us). If you read an article in Spain, there is an order to arrest the Odyssey's two most important man.That's serious and sad. I understands about your point if those coins belong to Odyssey because there were found in International water-finder keeper, you're right!! but I don't trust too much because governments and archaeologists don't look it of the same angle.They have more evidence,influence and power to retrieve any treasure found in International water for any treasure hunter. International water is like detecting in the beach. If you find a gold ring, you own it but if somebody come to you claiming for that ring and evidence then is other story.

Like treasure hunter that I'm, I believe, before to remove or salvage some treasure that I find, I will coordinate before with all possible owners and governments,even in international waters, in order to avoid possibles trial in court.

if Odyssey had notified to Spain and England about those $500M coins before remove, I would support 100% to Odyseey with My comments.

Those $500M coin should be in a Museum in Spain, Peru or maybe in Smithsonia at Washington,DC, not trade them to acquire more money because behind those coins there is many stories to tell and representation of many heritage culture.It's my thought.

Amona

Amona... I guess you have no idea about Odyssey's business plan.  They only sell mass produced artifacts, not historical artifacts of significance. As far as museums go, Odyssey has artifacts on display in three museums, the New Orleans Mint, an Alabama museum, and their own traveling exhibit due to open in Okla. City. Don't worry, if Odyssey wins their case there will be plenty of artifacts to keep Peru happy.

P.S. I forgot to mention the Discovery Channel series that will be seen by millions of people all over the world, including Spain.

http://blogs.discovery.com/ocean_odyssey/

 

It will be very interesting to reach to know the truth about why all these people that appear in this TV program (in Spanish) they were "sweeps" to oppose to the presence of Odyssey in Spanish territorial waters..... but one of these not!!! 
 
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/t_34XsSWEDU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/t_34XsSWEDU</a> 
 
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/CNCvlChuSBM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/CNCvlChuSBM</a> 

It will be very interesting to reach to know the truth about why all these people that appear in this TV program (in Spanish) they were "sweeps" to oppose to the presence of Odyssey in Spanish territorial waters..... but one of these not!!! 
 
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/t_34XsSWEDU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/t_34XsSWEDU</a> 
 
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/CNCvlChuSBM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/CNCvlChuSBM</a> 

Links:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/t_34XsSWEDU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/t_34XsSWEDU</a> 
 
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/CNCvlChuSBM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/CNCvlChuSBM</a> 

Vox

Great!!!...If there is something that upset to me is "Gibraltar's government" with it's hosting to more Shipwreck hunters. In this report you can see another one stationed in one of its harbour. It's the typical government support like in 1982 with the Falkland island.

Amona

Odyssey YouTube Video...

http://www.youtube.com/user/ShipwreckOmex

[Read this if you want, if not,....]

Wolves disguised of lambs !!

Read this if you want, if not,....

You know what?  I compare Odyssey with Joe the "plumber" because in this forum there is two parties struggling for who will win the big prize of $500M,

Amona,  I rarely comment on  discussions like this one. I don't know anyone at Odyssey and own no stock in any company.  I think the bottom line is as you quoted and nothing more. $500 million.  If the wreck has nothing of value on it ? Would Spain pay for the salvage of Historical Artifacts ?  I think NOT. I also don't believe this trial has anything to do with being a war grave. I believe it is only about Greed.

If you want to to argue about who owns what. I personally think the only ones that should have a claim on any Spanish wreck ( Besides the people that salvage it ). Would be the relatives of the Indian Slaves that worked the mines for the cruel Spanish Overseers at the gold and silver mines.

[This Topic is out-of topic. Let's wait for the last determination in Tampa.]

Quote from: Amona on Oct 17, 2008, 04:28:48 PM
Quote
Wolves disguised of lambs !!



Read this if you want, if not,....

You know what?  I compare Odyssey with Joe the "plumber" because in this forum there is two parties struggling for who will win the big prize of $500M,







Amona,  I rarely comment on  discussions like this one. I don't know anyone at Odyssey and own no stock in any company.  I think the bottom line is as you quoted and nothing more. $500 million.  If the wreck has nothing of value on it ? Would Spain pay for the salvage of Historical Artifacts ?  I think NOT. I also don't believe this trial has anything to do with being a war grave. I believe it is only about Greed.

If you want to to argue about who owns what. I personally think the only ones that should have a claim on any Spanish wreck ( Besides the people that salvage it ). Would be the relatives of the Indian Slaves that worked the mines for the cruel Spanish Overseers at the gold and silver mines.

Old man

History itself has a huge value, coins is not the only attribute of some wreck, behind those ballast, wood,cannon and more items there is historic fact that describe the day that those ships went down to the bottom of the sea. If Odyssey or any Shipwreck hunter has in agenda hunts those shipwreck to fillout theirs stocks in Wallstreet, that is another story. Many folk ask "Why Spain never has made a hunt for theirs shipswrecks?" well, it's sample the answer, at 4,000 or 3,000 meter of depth, in 1950 or 1960's or maybe 1970 was there technology like robots to go down to that depth? the answer is "no". Spain and any country would share a percentage. About Indian Slaves,....Peru is claiming part of those $500M coins.

Odyssey found a Shipwreck with treasure that a Gentleman from Madrid found it before Odyssey ask permit for Explore.

This Topic is out-of topic. Let's wait for the last determination in Tampa.

Regard

Amona

Amona, is not question of "before or later", it is question to do it according to the law of the Spanish territorial waters. With a finder's right or like you call in USA arrest. 
This gentleman from Madrid submits the arrest of two shipwrecks in Spanish territorial water in Gibraltar Strait legally and before Odyssey. Will it be for this reason that it was swept? Surely!!!

Amona, is not question of "before or later", it is question to do it according to the law of the Spanish territorial waters.

I agree with you but I mention this because in the video that you posted, Journalists news made mention the "why" Spain never made an attempt to recovery those Shipswrecks and one reason was "no high technology before 90's"  that's makes sense.

Amona

Old man what makes you think it's all about greed ! The only greed is by Odyssey, they have made it quite clear what price they what for the coins $1000.00
for silver and $3000.00 for the gold coins all over rated ,$500 mil helps their stock prices.
His the question ? when has Spain said they would sell any of the coins they did say they would look at Peru's claim on the coin's and would surely
give them a share for their museum ,The Spanish government does not sell coins on eBay !! They would end up in their naval museum in Madrid
where they belong ! It's NOT American history, It's SPANISH !
Old man your argument has no merit.
Ossy

OSSY, I am not here to argue with anyone. Since when did more then a few coins of any year need to be exhibited in any museum ??  If Spain wanted artifacts, then I could see the need in a museum, but any one that  puts the money, time and effort into any salvage operation. Then they should reap the rewards. I don't care if that is Odyssey or P.T. Barnum. That's just my opinion and obviously there are many other opinions.

If I lost my wallet with cash in it, I wouldn't expect to get the cash back because someone else found it. I'll say this once more. It has to do with greed. When ever money is involved it's aways the same thing. The problem with people today as it has been for centuries. Someone else does the work and then lawyers sue when someone finds anything of value.

Personally, I would like to see Spain come to an agreement with salvors all over the world. If it's a Spanish ship wreck, then I think Spain should get 10% of any Gold or Silver and 25% of any artifacts that they want for a museum. I think that would be a win win propostion for everyone involved. The people taking the risk get paid for the risk and Spain shares in any reward. But hey, that's just my opinion.

Hey Ossey, Joel Ruth is excavating the Spanish warship La Magdelana in Ecuador right now. Why doesn't Spain claim that? RSOPS is working to salvage the Capitana wreck, a Spanish warship and grave site. Why doesn't Spain protest? Its all about greed and genocide. Spain would not dare claim something from the very people they stole and killed!

Old man what makes you think it's all about greed ! The only greed is by Odyssey, they have made it quite clear what price they what for the coins $1000.00
for silver and $3000.00 for the gold coins all over rated ,$500 mil helps their stock prices.
His the question ? when has Spain said they would sell any of the coins  they did say they would look at Peru's claim on the coin's and would surely
give them a share for their museum ,The Spanish government does not sell coins on eBay !! They would end up in their naval museum in Madrid
where they belong ! It's NOT American history, It's SPANISH !
Old man your argument has no merit.
Ossy

[/b][/i]

Let's move to Spain, it's a wonderful country.

Amona

Scuba old mate ! You make a good point ! I don't agree with your comment - ITS ALL ABOUT GREED AND GENOCIDE !
If you were right, Spain would be on Ecuador case to give it back, Greed is when you want it all, This is not case as you have said
yourself ! SPAIN DOESN'T PROTEST !
A few facts,Spain supports all the south American country's, It invests more financial income than any other nation,
that's right, more than the mighty US. What happen in the past can't be changed ! But if you are going to throw Mud in a
Mud slinging competion and expect not to come out muddy your wrong
Lets talk about genocide, what did you do with the red Indians and the English! what did they do in
Africa to the Zulu people with the help of Mr Gatling. YEP GENOCIDE ! All for the Empire, sound Familiar. Diamonds, Gold, Land
Scuba you didn't answer my last question, Why don't you give some of the treasure you find back to the people of Peru, Mexico, etc
Your in the same feeding line ,just a bit further down.
Ossy

Ossy

This is an example of people complainting about greed.

Amona

Ossy, to answer your question, I don't have any treasure to give back to the people of Peru. The state got it all.

Old man what makes you think it's all about greed ! The only greed is by Odyssey, they have made it quite clear what price they what for the coins $1000.00
for silver and $3000.00 for the gold coins all over rated ,$500 mil helps their stock prices.
His the question ? when has Spain said they would sell any of the coins  they did say they would look at Peru's claim on the coin's and would surely
give them a share for their museum ,The Spanish government does not sell coins on eBay !! They would end up in their naval museum in Madrid
where they belong ! It's NOT American history, It's SPANISH !
Old man your argument has no merit.
Ossy

[/b][/i]

Let's move to Spain, it's a wonderful country.

Amona

Amona, Please explain to me how Odyssey is being greedy ?? If I am not mistaken Odyssey did the Research, then spent millions on sending boats, equipment and divers to the site and then had a successful salvage.
To put it simply. They worked and got paid for it .( In the form of the recovery.) 
Now if you worked for something? Wouldn't you want to get paid for that work?

I call being Greedy, When someone wants something for nothing. I don't call what Odyssey did nothing. I call what Spain is doing, is trying to get something for not doing any work. Then again that's just my opinion. As my late Father used to say, opinions are like A$$Holes, everyone has one.

Old man what makes you think it's all about greed ! The only greed is by Odyssey, they have made it quite clear what price they what for the coins $1000.00
for silver and $3000.00 for the gold coins all over rated ,$500 mil helps their stock prices.
His the question ? when has Spain said they would sell any of the coins  they did say they would look at Peru's claim on the coin's and would surely
give them a share for their museum ,The Spanish government does not sell coins on eBay !! They would end up in their naval museum in Madrid
where they belong ! It's NOT American history, It's SPANISH !
Old man your argument has no merit.
Ossy

[/b][/i]

Let's move to Spain, it's a wonderful country.

Amona

Amona, Please explain to me how Odyssey is being greedy ?? If I am not mistaken Odyssey did the Research, then spent millions on sending boats, equipment and divers to the site and then had a successful salvage.
To put it simply. They worked and got paid for it .( In the form of the recovery.) 
Now if you worked for something? Wouldn't you want to get paid for that work?

I call being Greedy, When someone wants something for nothing. I don't call what Odyssey did nothing. I call what Spain is doing, is trying to get something for not doing any work. Then again that's just my opinion. As my late Father used to say, opinions are like A$$Holes, everyone has one.

Old man, the mathematics is not an opinion and still nobody, and I say nobody,  has been able to explain how 100 or 180 nm (the declarations are controverted and it is not very clear) are outside of the 200 nm of the EEC. That is a big difference between  recover legally and not.   
Magicians' matters? Where are the 20 or 100 nm?

vox veritas,  Boy you guys sure like to argue. My point is and always has been. It should be finders keepers no matter where it is found in the world or what country the salvor is from. Read my post below: I could care less whether the finder is from Spain and is in American or Iranian waters.
I know what a 200 mile EC is, and I understand that it was initially put into effect for Fishing rights. Which I agree with by the way.
I still say it's Greed no matter what Country wants a share of the pie. That goes for the State of Florida and any other state for that matter. That's just my opinion. I respect your opinion as well.

"Personally, I would like to see Spain come to an agreement with salvors all over the world. If it's a Spanish ship wreck, then I think Spain should get 10% of any Gold or Silver and 25% of any artifacts that they want for a museum. I think that would be a win win propostion for everyone involved. The people taking the risk get paid for the risk and Spain shares in any reward. But hey, that's just my opinion."

My point is and always has been. It should be finders keepers no matter where it is found in the world or what country the salvor is from.

[/b][/i]

Ok Old Man, drop your Rolex in the beach, 5 minute later I detect it and I tell you "Hey Old Man, I found you Rolex, but I can't return it you because you said " It should be finders keepers ",...what you going to do?

Amona

My point is and always has been. It should be finders keepers no matter where it is found in the world or what country the salvor is from.

[/b][/i]

Ok Old Man, drop your Rolex in the beach, 5 minute later I detect it and I tell you "Hey Old Man, I found you Rolex, but I can't return it you because you said " It should be finders keepers ",...what you going to do?

Amona

    why have LAWS when you can take what you want !
Ossy

Good afternoon Amona: There is a vast difference between that and someone finding my great, great, grandfather's  watch or penknife, or any of his personal belongings.  especially if they were stolen, or obtained by force  in the first place.

Incidentally, what would Spain, or any others, ever receive if no salvage for personal gain was allowed?  Who would actually finance the research and actual salvage operations?

I sincerely doubt that if you were to find a cache of Pirate treasure on that island, that you would be very happy to give it "all" away. 

Don Jose de La Mancha

I sincerely doubt that if you were to find a cache of Pirate treasure on that island, that you would be very happy to give it "all" away. 

Don Jose de La Mancha

Dear Real tayapoa

That Island is Mona Island. I'm visiting that island since 80's. I know it very well the rules there. My procedure when I cache hunting is the following:

1. I call it "Phase I", What does mean, I go to make a sort of survey with some high technology without dig, just to pick up evidence.If I find something then I can ask permission to commit the second step which is "Phase II"
2. Phase II means when I get permission to explore, what I detected with my equipment, I drill the soil and drop a camera to see what it is, I don't dig. In any moment I don't break the law. If I confirm that there is something big($$$) then I proceed to sign a contract with, because if I got evidence that I found treasure, according with the law I have the right to get part of it according with the law 1111 of buried treasure of 1958(?)

When I go cache hunting I do it not to give it away but share it with third parties that have legal rights over it. I'm very open mind in that point.

Amona

Don Jose, the matters of treasures (land and sea) are every day more complicated. Right now I have just read a forum where a person asks: the 7,200 Spanish currencies of the Portuguese ship San Jose that Arqueonautas is auctioning can be claimed by Spain? Why? Because in 1622, year of the shipwreck, Portugal was part of Spain (1580-1640). 
For the matter Juno/Galga was taken out of the powder of the forgetfulness old treaties among Spain, United Kingdom and USA.   
In 1974 Robert Stenuit recovers the load of the Dutch VOC Slot ter Hooge in waters of Portugal. The state wanted to keep everything, but Robert signed an agreement with Holland and he received his part.   

Amona, You make me laugh. First of all if you find any of my fake Rolex watches on the beach you can keep them. Secondly, I am not sure that you can sign a contract for any treasure on Mona Island if you found it.
The last time I was on Mona Island, I spent a week there living in a cave by the grass strip that was used as an air field. That was several years before you started going there. Mona Island was a National Park at that time. Unless they changed the rules, I don't think you can dig for treasure on a National Park.
I will give you a few places to look. Did you ever find the cave that can only be seen from the water ? This cave has a small opening and is to the left left of the beach that used to have the no swimming signs because of the sharks.
There is also a hollowed out huge boulder near the airfield that still has old bricks cemented in place covering some of the openings.
Good Luck. I hope you find something. Oh, by the way, the cave near the water has a very old shovel laying in it.

Ed... You may as well talk to a stone wall. They talk about greed, but what they don't mention is that Odyssey offered to share the find with Spain and was turned down. I wouldn't call that greedy on Odyssey's part.

[but what they don't mention is that Odyssey offered to share the find with Spain and was turned down.]

Ed... You may as well talk to a stone wall. They talk about greed, but what they don't mention is that Odyssey offered to share the find with Spain and was turned down. I wouldn't call that greedy on Odyssey's part.

Jeff, why you don't tell the whole truth! Odyssey had permits from Spanish Foreign Office. 
 
Clik on page 28: The Mercedes ploy 
 
 
http://issuu.com/hcpgroup/docs/psg_...1995936201404d5f34&layout=white

  ::Odyssey the truth Please !

Amona, You make me laugh. First of all if you find any of my fake Rolex watches on the beach you can keep them. Secondly, I am not sure that you can sign a contract for any treasure on Mona Island if you found it.
The last time I was on Mona Island, I spent a week there living in a cave by the grass strip that was used as an air field. That was several years before you started going there. Mona Island was a National Park at that time. Unless they changed the rules, I don't think you can dig for treasure on a National Park.
I will give you a few places to look. Did you ever find the cave that can only be seen from the water ? This cave has a small opening and is to the left left of the beach that used to have the no swimming signs because of the sharks.
There is also a hollowed out huge boulder near the airfield that still has old bricks cemented in place covering some of the openings.
Good Luck. I hope you find something. Oh, by the way, the cave near the water has a very old shovel laying in it.

Oldman

 I don't care if your Rolex is fake or not, I don't want it anyway, I just tried to put your statement in this forum as invalid argument and I did it. About Mona, Sorry but Mona is not a Nationa Park. Here in EU you can go to the jail  if you're seen with a metal detector in any US park but in Puerto Rico, including Mona, it doesn't happen, the Puerto Rican has other reason to send somebody to the jail rather than somebody that is detecting or even working ilegally.About the;

There is also a hollowed out huge boulder near the airfield that still has old bricks cemented in place covering some of the openings.

In reference to that Hollowed out huge boulder,what is the name of the nearest cave with Taino's cave painting??? Are you the guy that sent me a DVD about a treasure hunting in 1964 at Mona Island? That guy is from Spring Hill, Florida

Look the pic and tell me if you can see "National Park" in that sign in Mona Island

Regard

Amona


 

In English..  Welcome , Natural reserve Island De Mona, Sardinera beach
Amona  good luck with your search, hope to catch up next year
Ossy

In English..  Welcome , Natural reserve Island De Mona, Sardinera beach
Amona  good luck with your search, hope to catch up next year
Ossy

Right Ossy!!   That is not a National Park. I don't know why Old man mention this subject about Mona here.Anyway, when he said "Rolex is fake" he is telling me that his argument is completely invalid about Finder keeper, because if the Rolez was "no fake" then he would claim it , accepting what I say, Vorex, you, that no matter if you find something in the beach or international water, if the original owner claim it,you have to recognize it and share what you found.

I suspect that Old man is a guy that sent me a DVD from Spring hill, Florida about an expedition that a group from NY made in 1964 to Mona island for treasure hunting. In that DVD you can see what they did, how they get in there and basically let you know that they find treasure because after the trip, that guy telling that him and the rest of two guys with him, after that expedition, set up business and they were monetarily prosper.If that is true, then, they broke the law there in Puerto Rico because they never ask a permission to remove any treasure,(according with the law 1111) making a tradition of looter instead treasure hunting respecting the rules.Also in that DVD he used a picture that I shot of Mona in 2000 and he never asked permission to use it.

So, Ossy, we're in a Looter forum! watch your butts!! and your wallet!!

Amona

Amona, Quit guessing.  I wasn't even out of junior high school in 1964 and I never sent you anything.  Don't assume. You are way off base and wrong.

Amona, Quit guessing.  I wasn't even out of junior high school in 1964 and I never sent you anything.  Don't assume. You are way off base and wrong.

I'm not guessing, I'm suspecting. If you're not the guy, cool, but the way you talked to me about what you did in Mona before 80's pick me up suspect, that's it.Beside, all place that you mentioned are visited for local resident every weekend, so nothings new.

Amona

Old Man

Apologize if you was insulted for my word. It wasn't my intention.Please keep this topic only limited to talk about Odyssey issue. Mona is in other category of subjets which is pretty much similar to Odyssey because many American treasure hunter has been there looting treasure without permit.If you like to tell me some place in Mona,welcome, but send me a PM.

Amona

Buenas dias Vox:  You posted --->

Don Jose, the matters of treasures (land and sea) are every day more complicated.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sigh, tell me.  I have been sitting on top of one of the worlds largest, for almost 10 years now, still waiting for "all" of the permits.  And one wonders why patience tends to wear thin and one tends to bypass normal legal procedures.-------X.  In my case it is impossibleto  recover it with out full legal authorization, because of my silly moral upbringing.  Maybe my great grand childeren will benefit.   Other than ego, I probably won't.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Hold up?  Mainly  interdepartmental jealousy as to who has authority over what.  Too much departmental legal overlap.

Two new arrests...

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/no...inds-2-sunken-ships-near-english-c/

Jeff, Nice article.  It's great to hear that someone is still out there finding treasure. Good Luck and fair Seas.

Some food for thought here.


Who owns our ancient past? 
 
The Elgin Marbles were removed from the Acropolis of Athens 
What should be done with objects from antiquity, when their provenance is uncertain?

From the debate over the British Museum's Elgin Marbles, to the conviction of art dealer Giacomo Medici in 2004 for selling millions of pounds worth of stolen Italian antiquities on the international market, curators face a minefield when acquiring new objects.

Now, the director of the Art Institute in Chicago, James Cuno, has argued that we should not waste time debating what to do with objects whose origin is less than completely certain.

He says that museums should simply take all the necessary steps to ensure that purchases are legal and are not looted or stolen.


But he opposes the concept that a country has an automatic right to have the antiquities that originated from their region returned, criticising the idea that there is "an indelible link back to the ancient peoples who by chance happen to occupy that bit of earth that modern nation states do now occupy".

Lord Renfrew, a former director of the McDonald Institute for archaeological research at Cambridge University, says Mr Cuno's argument "isn't good enough".

"The great problem at present is the destruction of the record of the past through looting," he says.

"If great museums feel free to buy anything then you have a free-for-all which encourages the looting of the past."

While the controversy over the Elgin Marbles stretches back to the 1800s, there are many more recent claims on notable antiquities.


KA NEFER NEFER
 
The mask was discovered in 1952 in the step pyramid at Saqqara
The 3,000-year-old Egyptian funerary mask, known as the mask of Ka Nefer Nefer, is on display at Missouri's St Louis Art Museum after it purchased the artefact in 1998.

In 2006, Egyptian authorities called for the mask to be returned after being alerted to an object that had been missing from their collection since the late 1950s.

They claim to have documentary evidence that the mask disappeared from museum storage in Cairo and was illegally smuggled out of the country.

But the museum has refused to return the mask, saying it was obtained legally and through the proper channels.


SEVSO SILVER
 
The Sevso Silver has an estimated value of £50-100m
The Sevso treasure is a collection of 14 intricately decorated silver objects, believed to date from the late Roman empire.

The silver was bought in the 1980s for an estimated £10m by Spencer Compton, the 7th Marquess of Northampton. But an attempted sale in 1990 fell through when the Republic of Hungary claimed ownership of the silver.

Hungarian authorities maintain that the treasure was discovered by a quarry worker in the Hungarian town of Polgardy, who hid the silver in an old wine cellar. He was then found hanged and the hoard mysteriously disappeared only to emerge later on the international market.

The Hungarians believe it should be returned to Hungary to be displayed in the national museum.


K'INICH B'AHLAM STELA
 
The stela overlooks the cafe at the Kimbell Art Museum 
In the cafe of the Kimbell Art Museum in Fort Worth Texas stands a 7th Century Mayan limestone monument to king K'inich B'ahlam II.

It is alleged that the carving, known as a stela, was looted in the 1960s by a Mexican logger from a site in Guatemala known as El Peru-Waka.

The stela is legally owned by the museum as it was acquired before 1970, the date when UNESCO introduced conventions on the trade of illicit artefacts, but the Guatemalan government still claims that the carving should be returned.

In an attempt to ease the situation, the museum has arranged for an exact replica to be produced and given to Guatemala.



Pirate diver


 

Odyssey Marine Exploration Files Admiralty Claims on Two Shipwreck Sites
Friday November 7, 9:00 am ET


TAMPA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (NasdaqCM: OMEX), the world leader in the field of deep-ocean shipwreck exploration, has filed Admiralty Arrest Complaints in the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Florida on two separate shipwreck sites recently located by the Company.

Both sites lie in the North Atlantic Ocean beyond the territorial waters or contiguous zone of any sovereign nation, over 300 miles from the entrance to the English Channel. The sites are both believed to be the remains of steel hulled vessels. Odyssey believes that valuable cargo may be located at or near both sites, but pending confirmation of the identity of the shipwrecks and identification of potential claimants, additional information will not be released.

As with other shipwreck sites that the Company arrests, once the identity of the shipwrecks are reasonably confirmed, any potential claimants identified through Odyssey’s research will be notified through appropriate private or public notices.

“The operation to locate and identify these shipwrecks was undertaken with a chartered ship and some new equipment and technology that we are testing for application on future projects while the Odyssey Explorer and Ocean Alert undergo their 5 year surveys and drydock, which we expect to take several months,” commented Greg Stemm, Odyssey’s CEO, “We have been impressed with the performance and seaworthiness of the ship and equipment we’re testing and plan to extend operations further into the winter than we have tried in the past.”

About Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc.

Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (Nasdaq CM: OMEX) uses innovative methods and state-of-the-art technology to conduct extensive deep-ocean search and archaeological recovery operations around the world. Odyssey discovered the Civil War era shipwreck of the SS Republic® in 2003 and recovered over 50,000 coins and 14,000 artifacts from the site nearly 1,700 feet deep.

In May 2007, we announced the historic deep-ocean treasure recovery of over 500,000 silver and gold coins, weighing 17 tons, from a Colonial era site code-named "Black Swan." Odyssey has several shipwreck projects in various stages of development around the world.

Odyssey offers various ways to share in the excitement of deep-ocean exploration by making shipwreck treasures and artifacts available to collectors, the general public and students through its webstore, exhibits, books, television, merchandise, and educational programs. JWM Productions is currently filming Odyssey expeditions for an 11-part primetime series for Discovery Channel, which is scheduled to air worldwide in early 2009. Odyssey’s “SHIPWRECK! Pirates & Treasure” exhibit has been featured in New Orleans, Tampa, and Detroit, and is currently on display at Science Museum Oklahoma in Oklahoma City, OK

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