Odyssey Marine Article...

 

Two new arrests...

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/no...inds-2-sunken-ships-near-english-c/

Jeff, two new vessels ? It's interesting how Odyssey has given longitude and latitude readings on these vessels,
but not the Mercedes whys that Jeff ?
Ossy

Tomorrow, the 17th is the deadline for the OME response ?
Will OME pull a rabbit out of the hat or will judge Pizzo make a decision on his findings !
watch this space
Ossy

Spanish Press...

http://translate.google.com/transla...es&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Tomorrow, the 17th is the deadline for the OME response ?
Will OME pull a rabbit out of the hat or will judge Pizzo make a decision on his findings !
watch this space
Ossy

TODAY'S THE DAY...

Today is the beginning of the end for Spain's claim of sovereign immunity on the Mercedes. 

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federa...mdce/8:2007cv00614/197978/138/0.pdf

"If the “Black Swan” site represents debris from the frigate Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes, hereafter referred to as Mercedes, that vessel may have been an armed warship of the Spanish Navy from the time she was launched in Havana (1788) until 1802, but in the year 1802 she became a commercial vessel sailing for the “Correos Maritimos” (Maritime Mail Service) and, as such, indisputably assumed the role of a “commercial vessel” regardless of whatever armament was left on board."

Good Morning JEF:  Thanks for the post. It was a fairly good translation, except for a few literal boo boos

I will often wonder why so many translators literally translate word for word instead of obvious intended context?
 
This is prevalent in Mexico also.

Don Jose de La Mancha

This response begins as OME opinion and ends as nothing more 
Interesting attorneys Allen Von Spiegelfeld and Eric C have moved to another firm
Ossy

Hey Ossy... By chance are you divingdoc? His post today on HHI is very similar to your last post above.

"Scribe,

This response begins as OME's opinion and ends as nothing more. It is their opinion that this court has jurisdiction when this court is still trying to make a determination if in fact they do have jurisdiction. It is all very funny but I do not believe Judge Pizzo will see it that way. There is another matter that the judge has made a ruling on and ordered OME to produce. How will that one be answered I wonder?
The dog ate my homework??
LOL,
Doc

ps    No wonder those lawyers are switching firms."

Hi Jeff, no I'm not divingdoc, I must admit i did use some off his wording
He is a smart man !
Ossy

No, he's not too smart. He's being sued by Odyssey for libel, and he just filed for bankruptcy. He stuck the credit card companies for $238,000.   

No, he's not too smart. He's being sued by Odyssey for libel, and he just filed for bankruptcy. He stuck the credit card companies for $238,000.  

Sorry Jeff I don't know the history between yous guy's
I just look a both sides of the case, there always two sides to a story !
Ossy

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federa...da/flmdce/8:2007cv00614/197978/138/

(pages 16-17)

Yes, my allegations have very hard historical foundation, but continues without clarifying the matter of the 100-180 nm, because they continue lacking 100 or 20 nm to arrive to High Sea or to abandon the EEZ of Spain, Morocco or Portugal.

Claudio... The EEZ is a red herring. It has nothing to do with shipwrecks. I'm surprised that a self-proclaimed expert like yourself would not know the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS).

Claudio... The EEZ is a red herring. It has nothing to do with shipwrecks. I'm surprised that a self-proclaimed expert like yourself would not know the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS).

What about the UNCLOS article 149? And, why Odyssey defines 100 or 180 nm as international waters when it is EEZ? Please, explain  this detail. Thanks.

Odyssey Marine Exploration Asserts Position in "Black Swan" Admiralty Case With Historical and Legal Precedents
Tampa, FL - November 18, 2008

Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (NasdaqCM: OMEX), the world leader in the field of deep-ocean shipwreck exploration, yesterday filed its Response to Spain's Motion to Dismiss or for Summary Judgment in the "Black Swan" admiralty case pending in U.S. Federal Court in Tampa, Florida. In its pleadings, accompanied by over 1,000 pages of supportive documentation and imagery, Odyssey asserts that the "Black Swan" site and the cargo recovered do not represent an entity to which sovereign immunity would apply. Spain had argued in September that the U.S. Federal Court did not have jurisdiction over the case and that the case should therefore be dismissed.

Based on Odyssey's exhaustive research and evaluation of all data gathered, Odyssey's filing concludes that even if the site discovered is eventually proven to be associated with the Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes, which is unclear from the available evidence, the ship should not be accorded sovereign immunity. Furthermore, the vast majority of the cargo aboard was commercial cargo that was privately owned and was recovered without disturbing any ship remains.

"I am really pleased that through our filings, the public now can finally see the facts in this case for themselves. The historical, legal, numismatic and archaeological experts have done an outstanding job of thoroughly and objectively analyzing all the facts to arrive at their conclusions rather than choosing details in an attempt to match them to premature conclusions. As the public will now see, there are many facts that contradict the claims made by Spanish experts relating to the site," stated Greg Stemm, Odyssey's CEO. "We continue to hold out hope that Spanish officials, upon reviewing our data, will agree to further consider working amicably with Odyssey to reach an agreement that respects the rights of all claimants, including Spain, other countries and the descendants of private property owners, while respecting the cultural and historical interests in the site."

"Odyssey has heard from several potential claimants who believe they may have an interest in the case if, in fact, the "Black Swan" site is proven to be related to the Mercedes. We find them to be as puzzled as we are that Spain would seek to obtain sole rights to the coins recovered by Odyssey without considering the potential rights of any other parties. We are confident that our response will make the factual and legal issues clear, and look forward to moving the case toward a determination of the rights of Odyssey and those of any other legitimate claimants," said Melinda MacConnel, Odyssey Vice President and General Counsel.

As a next step, the U.S. District Court judge in Tampa will now consider Spain's motion and Odyssey's response in evaluating whether the Court has jurisdiction over the case.

Odyssey's response to Spain's motion and all supporting reports, affidavits, exhibits, and annexes are available for review at http://shipwreck.net/resp17nov08.html.

About Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc.

Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (NasdaqCM: OMEX) is engaged in the exploration of deep-ocean shipwrecks and uses innovative methods and state-of-the-art technology to conduct extensive search and archaeological recovery operations around the world. Odyssey discovered the Civil War era shipwreck of the SS Republic® in 2003 and recovered over 50,000 coins and 14,000 artifacts from the site nearly 1,700 feet deep. In May 2007, the Company announced the historic deep-ocean treasure recovery of over 500,000 silver and gold coins, weighing 17 tons, from a Colonial era site code-named "Black Swan." Odyssey has several shipwreck projects in various stages of development around the world.

Odyssey offers various ways to share in the excitement of deep-ocean exploration by making shipwreck treasures and artifacts available to collectors, the general public and students through its webstore, exhibits, books, television, merchandise, and educational programs. JWM Productions is currently filming Odyssey expeditions for an 11-part primetime series for Discovery Channel, which is scheduled to air worldwide in 2009. Following previous successful engagements in New Orleans, Tampa, and Detroit, Odyssey's "SHIPWRECK! Pirates & Treasure" exhibit is now on display at Science Center Oklahoma in Oklahoma City, OK through May 2009. For details on the Company's activities and its commitment to the preservation of maritime heritage please visit www.shipwreck.net.

For more detailed information on Odyssey, please contact Natja Igney, Odyssey's Manager of Corporate Communications, at 813-876-1776 ext. 2553.

® SS Republic is a registered trademark of Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc.
# # #

Odyssey Marine Exploration believes the information set forth in this Press Release may include "forward-looking statements" within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995, Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21E of the Securities Act of 1934. Certain factors that could cause results to differ materially from those projected in the forward-looking statements are set forth in "Risk Factors" in Part I, Item 1A of the Company's Annual Report on Form 10-K for the year ended December 31, 2007, which has been filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

psdiver, Are you the advertising company for Odyssey Reads like a bill board Ad !!
Odyssey is the world leader Bla Bla Bla........... World leader in Piracy !!
Ossy

Ossy, learn to hold your tongue and give the guy a break. He's simply posting a press release.

Claudio... The EEZ is a red herring. It has nothing to do with shipwrecks. I'm surprised that a self-proclaimed expert like yourself would not know the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS).

What about the UNCLOS article 149? And, why Odyssey defines 100 or 180 nm as international waters when it is EEZ? Please, explain  this detail. Thanks.

http://www.lavozdigital.es/cadiz/2008111...

http://actualidad.terra.es/cultura/artic

Yes, my allegations have very hard historical foundation, but continues without clarifying the matter of the 100-180 nm, because they continue lacking 100 or 20 nm to arrive to High Sea or to abandon the EEZ of Spain, Morocco or Portugal.

Nowhere in the arrest document does Odyssey mention international waters.

"The Defendant Shipwrecked Vessel is lying at a depth of approximately 1100
meters, beyond the territorial waters or contiguous zone of any sovereign nation
approximately 100 miles west of the Straits of Gibraltar. Upon information and belief, no
extant entity or person presently claims any ownership interest in the Defendant Shipwrecked
Vessel. Evidence at the site indicates that efforts, if any, by any previous owner to salvage
the shipwreck and/or its cargo have been long since abandoned. The value of the Defendant
Shipwrecked Vessel cannot be estimated at this time."

And you had better come up with a better theory than the one you're claiming in those articles. If Odyssey recovered coins from a fleet of Spanish ships that sunk in 1801, then how come some of the coins are dated 1802 & 1803.   

Jeff, If you don't mind sharing ? how many coins are from 1802/1803 ?
any other date's and which mint are they from ?
Thanks for your help 
Ossy

Yes, my allegations have very hard historical foundation, but continues without clarifying the matter of the 100-180 nm, because they continue lacking 100 or 20 nm to arrive to High Sea or to abandon the EEZ of Spain, Morocco or Portugal.

Nowhere in the arrest document does Odyssey mention international waters.

"The Defendant Shipwrecked Vessel is lying at a depth of approximately 1100
meters, beyond the territorial waters or contiguous zone of any sovereign nation
approximately 100 miles west of the Straits of Gibraltar. Upon information and belief, no
extant entity or person presently claims any ownership interest in the Defendant Shipwrecked
Vessel. Evidence at the site indicates that efforts, if any, by any previous owner to salvage
the shipwreck and/or its cargo have been long since abandoned. The value of the Defendant
Shipwrecked Vessel cannot be estimated at this time."

And you had better come up with a better theory than the one you're claiming in those articles. If Odyssey recovered coins from a fleet of Spanish ships that sunk in 1801, then how come some of the coins are dated 1802 & 1803.   

Not in arrest document, but yes in the media:


http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_15454.shtml

http://www.gibraltarnewsonline.com/...sey-marine-over-shipwreck-treasure/

http://seekingalpha.com/article/906...e-to-buy-odyssey-marine-exploration

http://www.wwnorton.com/cgi-bin/cei...orum/?C350e5a913KHc-6850-258-90.htm

http://www.coinnews.net/2008/04/03/...reck-case-with-odyssey-marine-4029/

http://lawreview.wustl.edu/in-print...waters%E2%80%94a-new-policy-regime/

http://www.divenews.com/modules.php...=News&file=article&sid=5817

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15584445

http://dragonflames.com/tag/odyssey-marine-exploration/

Here's an interesting affidavit by Carol Tedesco that was filed with Odyssey's response to Spain on Monday.

www.treasurelore.com/charts/Tedesco_Affidavit.pdf

Here's an interesting affidavit by Carol Tedesco that was filed with Odyssey's response to Spain on Monday.

www.treasurelore.com/charts/Tedesco_Affidavit.pdf

Jeff nice story ! Carol Tedesco had me half convinced, that's till I got to ( quote ! When you come up on piles of coins, with a lack of ballast and other shipwreck material, it is reasonable to consider that the coins were jettisoned by the crew and passengers of a ship in distress to lighten the load and save the vessel from sinking
For an expert ? she doesn't know much about sea currents and moving boats !
should get Odyssey to try an experiment, moving boat say 8 knots, and see have fast the can jettison box's of coins. then go back and see
if the end up in piles like the photos ! give mythbusters a call they should be able to help.
Odyssey is getting desperate.
Ossy

Claudio... The EEZ is a red herring. It has nothing to do with shipwrecks. I'm surprised that a self-proclaimed expert like yourself would not know the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS).

What about the UNCLOS article 149? And, why Odyssey defines 100 or 180 nm as international waters when it is EEZ? Please, explain  this detail. Thanks.

Jeff, seemingly the UNCLOS article 149 has importance and other don't forget that it exists: 
 
http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/dis... 

http://www.europasur.es/article/oci...y/con/paises/hispanoamericanos.html

Jeff, seemingly the UNCLOS article 149 has importance and other don't forget that it exists: 
 
http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/dis... 


[/quote]

Vox,

How is article 149 important in this particular case? The link is incomplete, and the justia site is so extensive that I could not find if it shows how artricle 149 applies to this case.

Thanks,

Mariner
 

"Article 149 of UNCLOS states that ‘all objects of an archaeological and historical nature found in the Area [that is, on the seabed underneath the high seas] shall be preserved or disposed of for the benefit of mankind as a whole, particular regard being paid to the preferential rights of the State or country of origin, or the State of cultural origin, or the State of historical and archaeological origin’. So, not only is Article 149 limited to the Area, but the provisions for exactly what to do with UCH as well the definitions of what constitute country of origin are both extremely vague and confusing."

http://www.mcdonald.cam.ac.uk/proje...thoutcontext/issue16/papa-sokal.htm

I think Odyssey is preserving and disposing of artifacts for the benefit of mankind as a whole. They have brought to light three shipwrecks, the Republic, Sussex & Mercedes, that nobody ever heard of before. Artifacts are on display in several museums, and the Discovery series will show "mankind" even more of what's under the sea.

Jeff, Odyssey has excavated more than 3 wrecks. Don't forget the "china wreck." It is a 19th century ship loaded with blue china that Odyssey saved from trawl nets. The trawlers were destroying shipwrecks and Odyssey salvaged the china and other artifacts and put EVERYTHING in a museum. Not one item was sold.

Good evening : This was in the Spanish interview-->

"España ha dicho que el acuerdo está en que se devuelva todo", aseguró el responsable de Cultura, quien precisó que "con los piratas, como con los terroristas, no hay nada de qué hablar".
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Spain has said the agreement is that they return everything, the Minister of culture.has said "with the pirates, as with the terrorists, there is nothing to discuss.

Don Jose de La Mancha 

MERCEDES is just the tip of the iceberg!


Ancient Tug Of War
Ancient Incan artifacts from the ruins of Machu Pichu in Peru are sparking an
international dispute.

(CBS) More than half-a-millennium old, some ancient Incan artifacts from the
Machu Picchu ruins in Peru have sparked quite the present day international
dispute, reports CBS News correspondent Jim Axelrod.

Yale University has them. Peru wants them back.

"Right now Yale believes that it has clear title to them," says Barbara
Shailor, deputy provost for the arts at Yale.

"Why do the artifacts belong back here in Peru?" asks historian Mariana Mould
de Pease. "Because they were made here."

When Yale professor Hiram Bingham rediscovered Machu Picchu early last
century, he carted thousands of pieces of pottery, jewelry, even bone
fragments, back to Yale's campus in New Haven, Conn. Peru says it was a
temporary arrangement for 18 months.

"The Peruvian government said, you take these artifacts because you want to do
research," de Pease said. "The understanding was you give them back. That was
in 1916."

As with any dispute, both sides are looking at the same set of events and
drawing two very different pictures. But here's what's not in dispute, not
here in Peru nor on the Yale campus. When it comes to the bulk of the
artifacts, Yale doesn't want to give them back. When the Peruvian government
asked for the artifacts back, de Pease said Yale's response was "arrogant."

"They tried to convince Peru that we were not able to conduct serious
research, that we were not able to take care of those artifacts," she said.

"We believe we've been good stewards for the last almost 100 years and that we
want to see that stewardship continue for the next 100 years and beyond,"
Shailor said.

As often happens, Axelrod reports, the strong feelings are leading to strong
words, like looting.

"Because looting is not only taking away and hiding the objects you are taking
with you, looting is saying you can't take care of the things, that's why I
keep them," de Pease says.

"This is not loot," Shailor says. "It was not the spoils of war. And the
conditions under which they were brought to New Haven, I believe, were
legitimate ones."

Yale has offered to return some of the artifacts. But not nearly enough for
the Peruvian government, which wants them all back in time for Machu Picchu's
centenary in 2011. If not, it has threatened a modern day remedy - a lawsuit.
© MMVIII, CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved.


Pirate Diver

Sheesh, what a can of worms  Spain is opening up.  Next Peru and the other American  Latin countries will want ALL artifacts, jewelry, monies, precious metals etc. etc.,  back from Spain. The worlds museums will soon be out of business.

Don Jose de La Mancha

"I exist to Live, not live to exist"

Hola Don Jose. Spain is only fighting for its Heritage, With technology now, what is safe, Odyssey can plunder the world oceans
and that's the business there in ! Maybe they should go into making documentaries on ship wrecks, I would be happy to pay for that.
PS you can start with the London museum they have the largest hoard .
Ossy

I agree with #1 post "Will Finders Be Keepers of Salvaged Treasure?"
If you loose it and abandon it then it's fair game for the next person coming along.
If my car breaks down and I leave it on the side of the road with no intention of recovering it; then the tow company gets to keep it for there service.
Just my 2 cents worth   

Bumpstick your are a funny guy So if your 5 series BMW breaks down
your going to leave it and good luck to who finds it !!
Or did you mean your car is worth 2 cents and you don't want it back ?
There are laws to protect people's property or would you like to go back to living like a cave man !!
Ossy

Good morning OOSY  mi amigo:  you posted -->

. Spain is only fighting for its Heritage
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
So will every country or person in the world, especially those that Spain plundered.  But where will the line be drawn?  I rather imagine that it will eventually trickle down to individual tribes or even persons  claiming their part, which, under Spain's example, will be ALL. 

So if everyone wants it all, then how far back in time do we go to start to declare legal ownership?

Of course this will mean no museums effectively.

Don Jose de La Mancha

" I exist to LIVE, not live to exist"

There's a big difference between Yale's possession of the Machu Pichu artefacts and Spain's removal of the various treasures that they took in the Conquest of the New World. Yale borrowed their artefacts in relatively modern times by agreement with the Peruvian Government and have just failed to return the stuff they borrowed. The treasure that Spain took from Mexico, Peru etc. was all taken from the then-native rulers of the areas after they had been conquered in a war/invasion. Like it or not, this was all legitimate "spoils of war" belonging to Spain, in a time-honored tradition.

I do not think that Peru has a legitimate claim on the cargo of the Mercedes. Now the legal heirs to the owners of the cargo when the ship sank, or was sinking, that's another matter, if they can establsih their legitimate claim to specific objects.

Mariner

Question for Vox Veritas: Claudio, I have great respect for your research work and for your opinions, though I might not agree with a few of them (the Isla Misteriosa case which I researched in great detail and finally concluded that Zacarias was a pathological liar) but specifically I am very intrigued by the thesis you have been putting forward in the Spanish press whereby the remains Odyssey has found would not belong to the Mercedes but to either the Real Carlos or the San Hemeregildo both sunk in the vicinity in 1801. You somehow criticize Odyssey for not mentioning this "crucial"part of you theory. My question is since there are coins recovered that are from 1802, 1803 an 1804, according to the Peruvian expert that was sent to examine the coins, how does this fit into your theory?
                                                               Panfilo

Forgot, here is the article:
              http://actualidad.terra.es/cultura/...igador-aludido-tribunal-2896204.htm

Question for Vox Veritas: Claudio, I have great respect for your research work and for your opinions, though I might not agree with a few of them (the Isla Misteriosa case which I researched in great detail and finally concluded that Zacarias was a pathological liar) but specifically I am very intrigued by the thesis you have been putting forward in the Spanish press whereby the remains Odyssey has found would not belong to the Mercedes but to either the Real Carlos or the San Hemeregildo both sunk in the vicinity in 1801. You somehow criticize Odyssey for not mentioning this "crucial"part of you theory. My question is since there are coins recovered that are from 1802, 1803 an 1804, according to the Peruvian expert that was sent to examine the coins, how does this fit into your theory?
                                                               Panfilo

Panfilo, the historical research about Swan Island (1605) demonstrates that the historical information of primary source affirms this way it. I simply remit myself to what the documents relate, neither I remove neither I add. About the Mercedes, I said that the well-known images can belong to the Real Carlos or the San Hemeregildo and I didn't say that in this same place where these two shipwrecks should be of it took out a treasure. On the other hand never have been given to know the exact place of the recovery of the treasure openly, so the doubt can persist and for long.   
Also, in September or maybe October of 1804 the Spanish frigate Felix disappeared without anything was known. It could be of this ship that the treasure was recovered (this it is only a possibility). And it can have other possibilities ........

Panfilo, if you read Carroll Tedesco report to the court you will notice that coins dates are from 1773 to 1803,
she only gave some small totals 18 pre 1801 and 39 from 1802 these could have come from different wrecks ?
Hopfully Claudio will shed some light on the matter!
Don Jose. Spain was also plundered by the Roman's and forced to work as slaves in the gold mines and then the
Moores. we can go further back, Spain has a long history !
Cheers Ossy

 
The Inca conquered and enslaved other peoples of Chile, Ecuador, Argentina and Bolivia. but up to now nobody has protested and only it is spoken of the Spanish black legend.

There's a big difference between Yale's possession of the Machu Pichu artefacts and Spain's removal of the various treasures that they took in the Conquest of the New World. Yale borrowed their artefacts in relatively modern times by agreement with the Peruvian Government and have just failed to return the stuff they borrowed. The treasure that Spain took from Mexico, Peru etc. was all taken from the then-native rulers of the areas after they had been conquered in a war/invasion. Like it or not, this was all legitimate "spoils of war" belonging to Spain, in a time-honored tradition.

I do not think that Peru has a legitimate claim on the cargo of the Mercedes. Now the legal heirs to the owners of the cargo when the ship sank, or was sinking, that's another matter, if they can establsih their legitimate claim to specific objects.

Mariner

So the way I understand it....one must declare war on Spain....

4theMoney

I thought that Odyssey already had declared war on Spain!!  (Sorry, Jeff; could not resist it)

Mariner

4themoney ( quote: so the way I understand it.. one must declare WAR on Spain )
show me the MONEY !!! try getting a real job
Ossy

Geeze Mariner, you beat me to it  sniffffff 

However, since everyone has a claim against every recovery, no matter which period, where , or how aquired, let's start anew.  Let's place everything under a statue of limitations.  Nothing over 50 years has a valid claiment anymore, unless a claim has been filed and some form of attempt to salvage is being done.

Frankly I believe that no more governmental salvages etc will be done for a  looong, loong time due to the world's problems, so if it is to be done, it must be done soon and by private salvage firms.

I rather suspect that many Marine Archeologists will soon be at the unemployment offices and attempting to relax the salvage laws in order to obtain employment.

Don Jose de La Mancha

"I exist to LIVE, not live to exist"

p.s  Right of ownership by theft, or conquest has been thrown out as a legitiment claim after WW-2.

4themoney ( quote: so the way I understand it.. one must declare WAR on Spain )
show me the MONEY !!! try getting a real job
Ossy

Lets see... I am a commercial fisherman, professional diver and have been running charterboats for almost 17years..... No trust fund here,,,, I do however dislike the greedy and self-rightious and do not resent those who find success.....I do not delude myself, as my part time efforts may never pay off....I work very hard for my family.....What do you do?

AhAH gentlemen: Whenever the consul  etc get personal, they have lost the case. Old axiom, but still true.

Incidentally,  I presume that  Spain has returned  "all of the Artifacts"  in her museums that originated in other countries or cultures to show good faith??

Don Jose de La Mancha

" I exist to LIVE, not live to exist"

Also, in September or maybe October of 1804 the Spanish frigate Felix disappeared without anything was known. It could be of this ship that the treasure was recovered (this it is only a possibility). And it can have other possibilities ........

Claudio... If the Felix disappeared how do you know where it went down? It could have been in the middle of the Atlantic.

Also, in September or maybe October of 1804 the Spanish frigate Felix disappeared without anything was known. It could be of this ship that the treasure was recovered (

this it is only a possibility

). And it can have other possibilities ........

Claudio... If the Felix disappeared how do you know where it went down? It could have been in the middle of the Atlantic.

It is a possibility not a fact. Fact can become when the truth is uncovered.

Gentlemen, have you seen the photos from Odyssey on the Mercedes case ? check out HHI Odyssey
and the Mercedes ! I would post here but I don't have the link.
Interesting, Check out the ocean floor! they look very close to shore from my experience !
Question for any body , Why didn't Odyssey bring up one of the Bronze cannons??? you would
Identify the vessel with out playing games ?
Claudio the Photos would show your information as 100 %
Ossy

Ossy,
You seem to look for an argument with every post about Odyssey. Why? Are you Spanish? Did they do something to you? It has only been with Odyssey. Why not whine about the other Spanish wrecks found all over the world? Sure your not Diving Doc? Sounds like the same guy to me. I would watch out, you'll end up in court too.

Diverlynn

Ossy,
You seem to look for an argument with every post about Odyssey. Why? Are you Spanish? Did they do something to you? It has only been with Odyssey. Why not whine about the other Spanish wrecks found all over the world? Sure your not Diving Doc? Sounds like the same guy to me. I would watch out, you'll end up in court too.

Diverlynn

What's wrong to be Spanish? or are you looking for English shipwrecks only in Florida's water? be honest with yourself,.... Did Odyssey do something for all advocate here ?

Just asking!!!

Architecad
(1A-31 supporter)

["if"]

Architecad,
I meant no disrespect to the Spanish or anyone else. How did you get that from what I wrote? Architecad, We all know where you stand so no need to repeat it.
My meaning was that "if" Ossy was Spanish, I might see where he comes from in his attitude. I just don't see where any state or country should not be willing to work with any reputable salvage company. Most of these artifacts will never be recovered if it were not for the salvors. Most do not have the equipment, man (woman) power or financial ability. I think Odyssey has done a magnificent job doing what they do in deep water. If not for them none of the deep water wreck treasures would be available to see, if only in photos, that's better than never seeing them at all.
Oh yea sure, lets just leave everything there 'cause if our/their state/country can't afford or is unwilling to search and rescue them in a timely manner they won't let anyone else try. Then NO history will be preserved.

Diverlynn

We all know where you stand so no need to repeat it.
My meaning was that "if" Ossy was Spanish

Diverlynn
Most time I don't waste my time reading prior post from others members because I have to go back pretty far and I prefer to aim in the last post, not in the thought of somebody wrote a post 2 or 3 weeks ago and being responded yesterday for some member here.

Odyssey made a good Job. The only problem is the way they proceeded to remove the coins, it is not the proper way to do it. In my opinion "Commercial salvor" will disappear in the future because the countries, people around the world understand the history of any country come from three sources:

 1. Books
 2. Archaeological works
 3. Archives

if Our children will be privated to learn of our heritage and culture's past just for the personal's profit of a few commercial salvor, then it's better to return to stone edge.

I don't like you feel bad because I repeat something.

Architecad

The Cultural Property and Archaeology Law Blog...

http://tinyurl.com/5mv75y

If it was "just for the personal's profit of a few commercial salvor", I would agree. But there's not a reputable company out there today who doesn't donate unique artifacts to be viewed by the public and for our children to learn from it. That beats it sitting in a warehouse while being kept from the public. My guess is that most archies aren't as upset about kid's learning as they are jealous of hard earned profit. Respectable companies typically sell duplicate items. Why don't we see how far any industry (much less shipwreck recovery) will benefit the public with no hope of a profit.

Coca Cola expects a profit to continue to run their business - no complaints.
IBM expects a profit to continue to run their business - no complaints.
Johnson and Johnson expects a profit to continue to run their business - no complaints.
Odyssey expects a profit to continue to run their business - EVIL!!!

It's not really as bad as it's being made out to be since they desire to share their finds with our children (who would do well to learn business practices while learning about history, too).

Respectfully,
Darren

Lynn... Ossy is Hispanic, so he does have an agenda. I suspect our new archy friend is Hispanic also.

I would bet to say that anyone, salvor, collector or purchaser, that any coin or artifact owned by a private individual has showned it to many many people. Who says unless it's in a museum that the public will never see it. I can't count the times I have seen Doug show his coin necklace to strangers and explain some history of when and where it came from. What are the chances of me going to Tallahassee and asking to see some of the treasures being stored, due to lack of space? Yea, right.

Diverlynn

Lynn... Ossy is Hispanic, so he does have an agenda. I suspect our new archy friend is Hispanic also.

jeff

Please, don't post that sort of comments, sounds like "discriminating with some prejudice".

Coca Cola expects a profit to continue to run their business - no complaints.
IBM expects a profit to continue to run their business - no complaints.
Johnson and Johnson expects a profit to continue to run their business - no complaints.
Odyssey expects a profit to continue to run their business - EVIL!!!

Coca Cola, IBM, Johnson & Johnson generate millions of employment around the world. They contribute to the local economy.They generate new no-direct employment (TV commercials,broadcasting,etc.) They contribute with new scientific development of foods,medicine and high technology. Odyssey,.... the only I know is they'd produced to Spain a big headache.

Many Commercial salvor are willing to contribute with museum or creating theirs own shipwreck museum(like Mel Fisher) but that is not the issue. The issue is the lack of knowledge about remove any artifact using the conventional archaeological method learned in a University. When you blow out water over some shipwreck site, you're putting in danger historical evidence, no matter if you find a coin, ballast or a bronze cannon.


Architecad

Buenas dias architecad: I sympathize with you, but you listed three scources -->

1. Books
 2. Archaeological works
 3. Archive

Basically I agree, but how do these three units receive their data and artifacts?  Through field recoveries of course. and who instigates those recoveries?  Initially, private enterprise naturally, since all govt's are very frugal in advancing any serious amounts of money for what is considered treasure hunting.  If you personally invest any money into any research program, you rightly expect a  profit,  or you do not invest, so it is with salvage and research companies, .it is that simple.

No ability to recover at a profit, after a long and very expensive search, means no searching. The various govt's have shown no inclination to invest in their history either, particularly Spain, except for lawyers...  So where is the incentive to continue to look for other wrecks?  Admittedly as time goes by, newer methods and equipment will make it easier in the distant future, but time is constantly destroying whatever archaeological value most wrecks may have. Those of recent sinkings are well known in all details so are not important to culture study as such..

So, an older, important wreck is located. The Archaeologists then record all pertinent data, etc., fine.  There now  remains the question of the contents.  Why can't the salvage group that expended huge quantities of money and time searching for it now profit? Just how many duplicates of coins, etc., are needed for Archaeological purposes?  Let the remainder go to help the company continue to look for more wrecks,  and signal a go ahead for others.  Remember, the profits from this will then be heavily taxed, again a plus effect..

So in total it is far more logical and archaeologically effective to encourage controlled marine salvage. no?

Even the Marine Archaeologists, who presently are trying to kill the  goose that lays "their" golden eggs,  will benefit through having more opportunities for employment.

Don Jose de La Mancha

It looks like Architecad is our old friend Amona, unless you believe in coincidence.   

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index....c,197529.msg1397939.html#msg1397939

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?30,839054,839054

Big surprise

Lynn... Ossy is Hispanic, so he does have an agenda. I suspect our new archy friend is Hispanic also.

Jeff, you always measure the things with two different measures (according to the moment). Thanks to Spain that colonized (for well or for bad) good part of America today, societies like Odyssey and others recover treasures and they are not disgusted to do so and little cares to be HISPANIC. But when somebody criticizes or it doesn't simply share something or somebody of your favorite company, then yes,  you discriminate against an HISPANIC, when you should thank that so many shipwrecks have been left in the bottom of the sea. Don't be ingrate!! 
P.S. I forgot: the state where you live (Florida) has a Hispanic name and your nation (America)  an Italian name!!

Claudio... You earn a living by selling research to treasure hunters, but now you are doing your best to discredit Odyssey. I wonder what you would be saying now if they had paid what you asked for, so I wouldn't talk about being two faced if I were you.

I have nothing against Hispanics, but some are prejudiced and do have an agenda.

It looks like Architecad is our old friend Amona, unless you believe in coincidence.   

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index....c,197529.msg1397939.html#msg1397939

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?30,839054,839054

It's funny how the internet can be a big place and yet, sometimes, a small place.



 Jay

[In 2005, the Singapore government paid more than £20m to acquire the treasure as the centrepiece for a new maritime museum.]

What is the standard for some of the other countries regarding permits and salvage? This article looks as though the government paid dearly for some artifacts.
(no all the type-o's below are not mine)


Diverlynn

The treasure trove making waves
From Our Own Correspondent was broadcast on Saturday, 18 October, 2008 at 1130 BST on BBC Radio 4.
Simon Worrall explains why a recent discovery on the seabed of the Indian Ocean will revolutionise our understanding of two ancient civilisations.
Part of the most important, marine archaeological discovery ever made in South East Asia.
The exceptional quality of the goods has led some scholars to suggest that these were gifts from the Tang Emperor himself
"The local fishermen believe that there are underwater spirits guarding the wrecks," says Tilman Walterfang, as our boatman picks his way through a maze of coral reefs and submerged rocks.
"Sometimes, they perform prayers on the boats, sacrificing a goat, spreading the blood everywhere, to keep the vessel safe."
I am on a fishing boat in the Gaspar Strait, near Belitung Island, off the south-east coast of Sumatra.
Since time immemorial, this funnel-shaped passage linking the Java Sea and the Indian Ocean has been one of the two main shipping routes. The Malacca Straits is the other, from China to the West.
A British sea captain, shipwrecked here in 1817, called it "the most dangerous area between China and London".

Discovery

Ten years ago, at a spot known locally as "Black Rock", two men diving for sea cucumbers came across a large pile of sand and coral.

Digging a hole, they reached in and pulled out a barnacle-encrusted bowl. Then another. And another.

They had stumbled on the oldest, most important, marine archaeological discovery ever made in South East Asia, an Arab dhow - or ship - built of teak, coconut wood and hibiscus fibre, packed with a treasure that Indiana Jones could only dream of.
There were 63,000 pieces of gold, silver and ceramics from the fabled Tang dynasty, which flourished between the seventh and 10th centuries.
Part of the most important, marine archaeological discovery ever made in South East Asia.
The artefacts from the find are nearly 1,200 years old
Among the artefacts was the largest Tang gold cup ever discovered and some of the finest Yue ware - a porcelain that the ancient Chinese likened to snow because of its delicacy.
The exceptional quality of the goods has led some scholars to suggest that these were gifts from the Tang Emperor himself.
The bulk of the cargo was more homely, including 40,000 Changsha bowls, named after the Changsha kilns in Hunan Province, where they were produced.
Found packed inside tall, earthenware jars, some experts believe bean sprouts were placed between the bowls as a sort of organic bubble-wrap. These brightly painted tea bowls were the Tang equivalent of plastic food containers.

"It looks like they were approaching Tanjung Pandang, the main town on Belitung Island, when they hit the reef," explains Walterfang, the stocky German treasure hunter who salvaged the wreck.

   
Part of the most important, marine archaeological discovery ever made in South East Asia.
The Belitung wreck is a time capsule that has revolutionised our understanding of two ancient civilisations that fill the airwaves today, China and the Middle East
"They may have come here for water or other supplies. Perhaps there was an emergency. Or even an attack by pirates.
"But we cannot know. It was nearly 1,200 years ago."
Magically, everything was perfectly preserved by a layer of silt. Raised from the seabed more than a millennium later, the gold cups and bronze mirrors, silver boxes and ewers look as fresh as the day they were created.

In 2005, the Singapore government paid more than £20m to acquire the treasure as the centrepiece for a new maritime museum.

But it is not just about bling. The Belitung wreck is a time capsule that has revolutionised our understanding of two ancient civilisations that fill the airwaves today - China and the Middle East.
The serial nature of the cargo - 1,000 miniature funeral urns and 800 identical inkpots - shows that China was mass-producing goods for export several centuries earlier than previously thought.
The Arab dhow, the first of its kind ever found, proves something equally startling - that mariners from the Gulf were trading on a scale, and over distances, unmatched by human beings until Vasco da Gama set sail for India at the end of the 15th Century. Sinbad the Sailor was for real.

Prosperous Basra

One of the Changsha bowls bore a date stamp, "the 16th Day of the seventh Month of the second Year of the Baoli reign", or AD 826. Carbon-14 analysis of some star anise found in the wreck confirmed this as the probable date of the dhow's departure from China.
Most scholars believe it set sail from Canton, or Guangzhou, as it is today, the largest of the five ports servicing the Maritime Silk Route.
Part of the most important, marine archaeological discovery ever made in South East Asia.
China mass-produced export goods centuries earlier than first thought
No-one knows exactly where the dhow was heading when it struck the coral reef.
Its most likely destination was a place familiar to us for other reasons, the Iraqi port of Basra, as it is called today.
In the 9th Century, Basra was one of the wealthiest cities in the world, with a prosperous merchant class hungry for Chinese luxury goods.
Among the most sensational artefacts found in the wreck are three dishes decorated with cobalt from Iran which represent the oldest blue and white ware ever found, setting back by several hundred years the invention of what would become known all over the world simply as "china."

Claudio... You earn a living by selling research to treasure hunters, but now you are doing your best to discredit Odyssey. I wonder what you would be saying now if they had paid what you asked for, so I wouldn't talk about being two faced if I were you.

I have nothing against Hispanics, but some are prejudiced and do have an agenda.

Jeff, both we know perfectly details because I don't have any reasons to be friend of the activities of Odyssey.
Personally I don't think that say the truth (so many truths I say that Odyssey had used my book to defend himself) of the facts mean to be enemy of anybody, unless the other part lies. Have you never lied?

diverlynn ( quote : I would Watch out ! You'll end up in court too ) What's wrong
does the Truth hurt ? You have eye's , what do you see
The problem i have with Odyssey, is they took what is not theirs after being toll not to touch anything by Spain  !
I love History and the Truth, what do you like ? some will say I am one sided, but so are you !!!!!!

Lynn... Ossy is Hispanic, so he does have an agenda. I suspect our new archy friend is Hispanic also.

Jeff I'm disappointed with you, Did I hit a nerve ? You have seen the photos , I did ask a question ?
you have an oppion when you want too .
And I'm not Hispanic I'm a very proud Full blooded Spaniard ! What are you I don't hide my profile, like you do !!!
PS I'm also a very proud Australian if you can understand that !!
Plus- Ultra - Ossy

Well Jeff ? cat got your tongue !!! why didn't Odyssey bring up a bronze cannon I see your on line.
Should i sign off as Ossy or Spaniard what do you think Jeff ?

What's wrong
does the Truth hurt ? You have eye's , what do you see Huh

A very unlikeable person.


DL

diverlynn ( quote : I would Watch out ! You'll end up in court too ) What's wrong
does the Truth hurt ? You have eye's , what do you see
The problem i have with Odyssey, is they took what is not theirs after being toll not to touch anything by Spain  !
I love History and the Truth, what do you like ? some will say I am one sided, but so are you !!!!!!

Lynn... Ossy is Hispanic, so he does have an agenda. I suspect our new archy friend is Hispanic also.

Jeff I'm disappointed with you, Did I hit a nerve ? You have seen the photos , I did ask a question ?
you have an oppion when you want too .
And I'm not Hispanic I'm a very proud Full blooded Spaniard ! What are you I don't hide my profile, like you do !!!
PS I'm also a very proud Australian if you can understand that !!
Plus- Ultra - Ossy

You never answered my question? Besides provoking, what exactly do yo do for a living, my full-blooded Spanish-Australian friend?

4themoney my American friend ! I own a group of tire shops. Its in my profile. nothing to hide unlike some of you
Ossy

What's wrong
does the Truth hurt ? You have eye's , what do you see Huh

A very unlikeable person.


DL

Nasty, you don't even know me
Ossy

Come on guys,

This is no place for this kind of nasty or racist comments.

Mariner

Well Jeff ? cat got your tongue !!! why didn't Odyssey bring up a bronze cannon I see your on line.
Should i sign off as Ossy or Spaniard what do you think Jeff ?

This is beginning to sound like the Spanish Inquisition.   

No one mentions the good things that Odyssey did. They salvaged  the "China" wreck and saved thousands of pieces of china from a wreck that was in the path of trawlers. Everything they brought up is now in a museum. Nothing was sold. Odyssey employs 4 archaeologists and excavates wrecks in a proper way, recording all the archaeological information using state of the art conservation techniques. What does Spain do with their cultural heritage? They dredge it up and use it for fill material to build a new marina. Face the truth; Spain could not care less for their own cultural heritage, they just want the money.

Spain could not care less for their own cultural heritage, they just want the money.

I don't even think it's the money at this level. Even though these treasures are large amounts to us, they are a fraction of a western countries GDP for a year. Spain's was 1.4 trillion dollars in 2007.

Just for fun, I also checked out Florida's state budget - $64.7 Billion (2005-2006)
How much difference monetarily would it really have made to the state if Mel Fisher handed over all his findings to Florida? (Almost half a billion $ total over 15 years from his website.) That's only $34 Million a year.

Nope, at this national or state level, it's about what it's always ultimately about - power and control and 'face'.
Basically, the same reasons those ships came to be there in the first place.

That's why no country or state looks for these early ships, but as soon as you find one, they all want a piece of it.

 Jay

 

Scubasalvor I'm sure Odyssey have done some good things But ! most are avoiding the Mercedes
Questions ! Odyssey spent a lot of time in the Mediterranean and some time in the Atlantic !
I just want to know the truth ! don't you ?
I ask a few questions, But persons such as Jeff k and Diverlynn and others, Lose the plot
and think by calling me Hispanic, it make me less than them I won't say what i think
What does Spain do with their cultural heritage ?? you got to be kidding scubasalvor !!
Have you been to Spain There Musems, there towns with Roman buildings,
their castles are you kidding me !!! Just because Robert Marx made mention of the extension
of the Cadiz harbour. come on now !! and then you make the comment they want the money!
Mate ! it's theirs in the first place and it's only worth something if you sell it to a museum or on EBay
That's what Odyssey do, its their field. The Kingdom of Spain do sell stuff on EBay !!
Ossy

Jeff k

Well Jeff ? cat got your tongue !!! why didn't Odyssey bring up a bronze cannon I see your on line.
Should i sign off as Ossy or Spaniard what do you think Jeff ?

This is beginning to sound like the Spanish Inquisition.   

Your still side stepping the question Jeff k !! Bronze cannons !!
You know I'm Spanish, you haven't toll me what you are !! French ? English? unknown ?
and No hidden agenda< I just want the truth !!
Ossy

As a moderator, I would just like to caution all involved in this thread about the rules again. There is no need for name calling, baiting, or otherwise turning this thread ugly again.

Thanks
Tom

Ossy... Odyssey was ready to go back to the wreck site when Spain illegally stopped their ships.  Maybe they would have brought up some cannon or other artifacts that would have identified the ship. Cannon are not a good way to identify a wreck, because most ships carried cannon from many countries.

"Cannon are very useful in establishing the size, type, and approximate date of the ship, but not always the nationality, because cannon manufactured in many different countries might be found on a single ship. During the second half of the sixteenth century the majority of the cannon carried on Spanish ships were made in England and Holland, and during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries a large percentage were of foreign manufacture. A Spanish merchant ship sailing to Veracruz in 1616 had three English, one Italian, three Dutch, two Portuguese, five French, and three Spanish cannon as her armament. In 1623 the flotas and treasure galleons were unable to sail for the New World because of a grave shortage of cannon due to the fact that all the ships that had gone to the New World the previous year had not returned to Spain. To arm the ships, thirty were bought from Portugal, two hundred from Denmark and three hundred from England. Many of the ships of other European nations also carried cannon of foreign manufacture, most of which were obtained by capturing ships of other nations."

P.S.  My mother's parents came from Palermo, Sicily, and my father's parents came from Kiev, Ukraine. That makes me an American.

Ossy... Odyssey was ready to go back to the wreck site when Spain illegally stopped their ships.  Maybe they would have brought up some cannon or other artifacts that would have identified the ship. Cannon are not a good way to identify a wreck, because most ships carried cannon from many countries.

"Cannon are very useful in establishing the size, type, and approximate date of the ship, but not always the nationality, because cannon manufactured in many different countries might be found on a single ship. During the second half of the sixteenth century the majority of the cannon carried on Spanish ships were made in England and Holland, and during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries a large percentage were of foreign manufacture. A Spanish merchant ship sailing to Veracruz in 1616 had three English, one Italian, three Dutch, two Portuguese, five French, and three Spanish cannon as her armament. In 1623 the flotas and treasure galleons were unable to sail for the New World because of a grave shortage of cannon due to the fact that all the ships that had gone to the New World the previous year had not returned to Spain. To arm the ships, thirty were bought from Portugal, two hundred from Denmark and three hundred from England. Many of the ships of other European nations also carried cannon of foreign manufacture, most of which were obtained by capturing ships of other nations."

P.S.  My mother's parents came from Palermo, Sicily, and my father's parents came from Kiev, Ukraine. That makes me an American.

Jeff, your statement is not correct. For Spanish ships up to 1700 is possible to get artillery details. This example of the galleon San Roque 1605 is explanatory. The same details can be consulted for other galleons of this fleet and for many more than I found, Spanish and Portuguese. It is necessary patience and time, but yes, there are wide details for cannons. 
 
This document here assistant allows to know: 
- the weight of the cannon 
- the metal   
- the king's name that reigned when the cannon was fused 
- the name caster 
- the year of foundry 
- distinction marks (as royal marks) 
- other kind of details as "averia" etc. 
 
For later at 1700,s Spanish artillery is easier, because exist lists of them.

Hola Vox:  The canon list was fascinating reading, however I am a bit weak out of hand on some of the words  I will work them out. More?

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s.Remember it has been proven that genetically, we are no further apart than 22,nd cousins, so  relax, what does idividual present nationality have to do with ships?  We are all related,  smoochie (((Vox Jef)))

oh yes ((( LYN))),  sigh.one can dream no?

Claudio, correct me if I'm wrong, but all Spanish galleon's and other ships  didn't they have a register
which was authorized by the State, when not only the guns but quantity of powder had to be listed.
And Jeff didn't Mel Fisher also look for this list when finding the Atocha ?
PS my Parents where born, One in Leon and one from Castile and I only a stone throw from the Atocha Area
( Madrid ) We are all from the same Island we call Earth !
Cheers Ossy

Don Jose de La Mancha

  Back at ya!

Hey, if we were all alike in our opinions, we would not have anything to say...and it would be a boring world

Merry Christmas guys
   DL

Don Jose de La Mancha

  Back at ya!

Hey, if we were all alike in our opinions, we would not have anything to say...and it would be a boring world

Merry Christmas guys
   DL

Merry Christmas to all
Ossy

Claudio, correct me if I'm wrong, but all Spanish galleon's and other ships  didn't they have a register
which was authorized by the State, when not only the guns but quantity of powder had to be listed.
And Jeff didn't Mel Fisher also look for this list when finding the Atocha ?
PS my Parents where born, One in Leon and one from Castile and I only a stone throw from the Atocha Area
( Madrid ) We are all from the same Island we call Earth !
Cheers Ossy

Ossy, Spain didn't have a royal navy to Indies until the arrival of the Borbones. For the time 1503-1700 there are armada documents that reflect the expenses to prepare the whole fleet year per year in certain occasions. For 1700 from now on and for Spanish ships there are documents in several archives. 
But many galleons were of property of the crown (king), that is to say, of the state. It is the case of the San Roque, missing  in 1605.

I guess they changed their mind somewhere along the way...


Samuel de Champlain 1567-1635

I guess they changed their mind somewhere along the way...


Samuel de Champlain 1567-1635

Guy ...., anyone that has studied the history of the world economy knows perfectly that behind the big conquests there was and there are big economic interests. The gold and the silver that the Spanish galleons transported finished in the boxes of all the bankers from Europe. Today it happens the same thing with the oil. It happens the same thing with raw materials (minerals, technology, computer science, etc.). Anything has changed from 1492. Are all lucrative interests.

Vox

Be discreet with the some spanish shipwreck information that you post here. You never know who is the guy behind the keyboard reading and writing here in this Forum. It's just an advice!!

Architecad 

architeclad:  Relax, anyone with  access to deep sea salvage abilities already has their contacts and data. I doubt  what is posted here will add or subtract from this to any degree..


Don ?what's his name?

p.s  Now I remembe,r  Don Jose de La Mancha.  it is just that getting a smooch from Lyn so flustered me that---------  

[architeclad]

architeclad:  Relax, anyone with  access to deep sea salvage abilities already has their contacts and data. I doubt  what is posted here will add or subtract from this to any degree..

tayopa

I don't worry about it, I just advice, and..

Architecad

not

architeclad
 

good aftenoon Archi--:  Blame Lyn for that, she flustered me  sigh   .Twas wonderful sigh.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. I am infamous for my typos  sniff, but my statement still  holds full validity...

Blame Lyn for that, she flustered me  sigh   

Did you say "She"?

I don't believe it.

is she a youngirl? or grand mom?
 
Architecad

Advice is cheap when walking in long grass carry a big stick

Architecad
I am neither

 

well,...

I never have seen a woman detecting in a beach, only guys with some company.

Architecad

Archi--- Lyn is one sexy, prime, beautiful broad.   A top diver and researcher. extremely intelligent, and  has  exquisite taste,   witness  --> "Back at ya!"  sigh

Don Jose de La Mancha

Me and Diverlynn at the subcontractors meeting earlier this year.

S E E ?   After looking at that barnacle encrusted thing next to her, perhaps I may have to retract my "Exquisite tate " remark  heheheheheheheha

Apol scuba salvor

Don Jose de la Mancha

God Bless both

Architecad