Odyssey Marine Article...

[32 percent]

Whoo Hoo!!!

Odyssey Marine finds Balchin's HMS Victory shipwreck; shares up
02.02.09, 11:53 AM

Feb 2 (Reuters) - Shares of Odyssey Marine Exploration Inc shot up more than 32 percent, after the Florida-based treasure-hunting firm said it discovered the shipwreck of Admiral Sir John Balchin's British warship HMS Victory, lost in 1744.

The British Royal Navy warship has a bronze cannon, and research indicates a substantial amount of gold and silver was aboard, the company said in a statement.

However, Odyssey Marine did not specify the value of its find in the press release. Calls to the company seeking comment were not immediately returned.

The company said it is cooperating with the UK's Ministry of Defence (MOD) on the project, and the terms of the collaboration between the two parties are being negotiated.

Tampa, Florida-based Odyssey has been embroiled in a legal dispute with the Spanish government, after it recovered a shipwreck with gold and silver coins in 2007 and flew the haul -- estimated by some to be worth $500 million -- back to the United States.

The Spanish government claims that the shipwreck was a Spanish warship, and it is the rightful owner of the wreck and precious cargo.

Shares of the deep-ocean shipwreck exploration company rose to a high of $5.23, but later pared their gains to trade up 33 cents at $4.28 Monday morning on Nasdaq.

In July of 1744, HMS Victory was dispatched under the command of one of the country’s most esteemed admirals, Sir John Balchin who had served the Royal Navy with distinction for nearly 60 years, sailing the waters of the West Indies, the Baltic, Mediterranean and English Channel on 13 different warships.

The recently retired Balchin was abruptly called back into active naval service to rescue a Mediterranean victualling convoy blockaded down the River Tagus at Lisbon by the notorious Brest fleet of de Rochambeau. If these vital supplies failed to reach the Mediterranean fleet, England was at risk of losing the War of the Austrian Succession. Arriving at the Tagus River in late August, Balchin’s Victory successfully liberated the convoy, and immediately escorted it to Gibraltar. The French squadron of 12 ships retreated to Cadiz with the Victory in hot pursuit, blocking the Brest fleet in port.

During the course of her voyage, the Victory reportedly anchored off Lisbon, the bullion capital of Europe and the Mediterranean world, where she was loaded with a commercial cargo of gold. It is believed that here Balchin engaged in the accepted practice of carrying specie back to England. This is further confirmed by the financial newspaper Amsterdamsche Courant of November 18/19 1744, which describes Balchin’s flagship as carrying a huge sum of money when she foundered: “People will have it that on board of the Victory was a sum of 400,000 pounds (1744 face value) sterling that it had brought from Lisbon for our merchants.” Based on contemporary accounts of coinage being shipped from Lisbon at the time, this cargo most likely consisted of gold coins. If gold, this would equate to approximately 100,000, 1 oz. gold coins weighing approximately 4 tons. Additional research indicates that the Victory was also transporting large quantities of both silver and gold coins plundered from enemy prize ships captured by Balchin’s fleet.

On her return home, as Balchin’s Victory sailed through the Western Approaches to the English Channel in early October she was caught in a violent storm and separated from the rest of the fleet. Despite damage to several other ships, all of the sails safely reached England, with the sole exception to the flagship. On October 5, 1744, HMS Victory, Britain’s premier first-rate warship—the most powerful ship in the world—was lost with all hands aboard; approximately 900 sailors, plus a complement of marines and 50 volunteers drawn from the noblest families of England, perished in the disaster, including the Admiral Sir John Balchin.

" The money is not as Important as the cultural and historical significance of the discovery. " Greg Stemm "
 http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=736896
Wow. I fell out of my chair, has Greg been reading my posts
Ossy

Odyssey report on the Victory, fantastic photos and very informative, Its a shame they didn't put the same effort into the Mercedes.
Check out Fig 32 next to the cannons, look like coins and even some cobs !
 http://www.shipwreck.net/  click on the HMS Victory. then go to Now on Line.
Cheers, Ossy

Thanks Ossy, that's a great resource and wonderful pictures. Very exciting news

Smithbrown

Spiegel Online Interview With Greg Stemm...

http://tinyurl.com/daa9o2

Greg Stemm: We have been working on the Atlas mapping project in the English Channel for four years now. We are searching an area of about 5,000 square miles (12,950 square kilometers), and in the course we have turned up a total of 273 shipwrecks, including some previously unidentified U-Boats -- and the HMS Victory.

Stemm: They do not have any evidence. During our work in the English Channel, we investigated 25 shipwreck sites. We took only very few artifacts and delivered them to the British government. We do not talk about marine archaeology, we practice it. Excavating a wreck like the HMS Victory costs $30 million. No government is willing to spend that kind of money -- even less so in a recession.

Alot of money, 5,000 square miles, does that mean they mapped possibly other companies Arrest sites in that area? Is that allowed as long as they do not intrude on the arrested site?

["SideImagingSoft.com - Humminbird Side Imaging Forums"]

Alot of money, 5,000 square miles, does that mean they mapped possibly other companies Arrest sites in that area? Is that allowed as long as they do not intrude on the arrested site?

Yep!

Pretty interesting, they say they have found some new U-boats as well.

Daily Mail Article...

http://tinyurl.com/aw44ms

I have been in the UK for the last week or so, and have seen the reaction there to Odyssey's discovery of the Victory. I think there will be a public outcry if the British Government allow Odyssey to salvage this Man o' War, with its more than 1,100 dead British mariners.

Mariner

UNESCO Article...

http://tinyurl.com/cepdkw

Are those coins on the top left of this picture ?
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1422340,00.jpg

I doubt it. The pink one on the left is a tiger paw shell. The grey one at the end of the wood is a sand dollar. There are also some round stones there.

I wonder if England will pay odyssey for the find, $30,000,000 is alot of money that a shareholder would not like to see spent on something they cannot recover.

I wonder if England will pay odyssey for the find, $30,000,000 is alot of money that a shareholder would not like to see spent on something they cannot recover.

Does anyone know what England's budget for expenditure on Museum's and Archeology would be?
$30,000,000 may be a fair price, I think they would recoup their costs very quickly with admissions
to a Museum plus the Tourism dollars that go with over seas visitors.
It's not every day you find a 100 gun war ship, the question would be will $30,000,000 keep odyssey
happy for recovery only?
Ossy

 I would not think any enterprise would  be in buisness to just break even.....

Odyssey may have no choice, breaking even at 30 Million or whatever is better than a big fat 0!

For what it is worth, my bet is that the British Government will find a way of allowing Odyssey to salvage the Victory. If they don't, then the chances are that somebody else will find the wreck and loot it, and I don't think that the Government will want to take that chance. There will be an outcry from parts of the British public, and pressure from UNESCO, so there will have to be quite a few rules applied to the recovery, but I think that the Government will stress the benefits of all the knowledge that will come from it.

Mariner

Mariner... That's true, the location is probably not so secret. I know it from following the Explorer on AIS Live, and if I know the location then I'm sure others do also.

 I guess I am just saying that if the British Government doesnt give some incentive for profit then organizations such as Odyssey may not be as forthright the next time or may avoid such discoveries altogether. I dont have any stake in this or care either way.....just thought I would add that

4theMoney,

It struck me from the TV series that Odyssey knew exactly what they were searching for, and therefore knew that the Victory was a Warship that would probably come under the definition of a Sovereign Vessel, exempt from Salvage. They could have discussed this at that stage with the British Government. Instead, they chose to go on searching for it, though I don't know where the $30 million comes from. Remember that in their searches they were also looking for the Merchant Royal.

Perhaps they calculated that their best best of getting an agreement on recovering the Victory was to very publicly find it, and force the British Government into an agreement because of fears that the wreck could now be found and looted by somebody else.

I think that Odyssey do very little that is not calculated, and tailored to the particular circumstances. That might give them short-term advantages, but it strikes me that it will be counterproductive for them, and the rest of us, in the longer term.

Mariner


 

 Mariner,
    I have no doubt that you are quite probably right... either way, what a gift for the British people...

[I think its the fact that its an American Company, pure and simple! If it was a privately owned British Company, I think there would be a different tone. Just as if it would have been a Spanish Company on the Black Swan.]

This show is just now airing, Odyssey was in contact with the Ministry of Defense while this whole things was taking place months ago.  They decided to release the information to coincide with the show.  Its not like this has all just happened this week.  It seems that way because the news is just now breaking.  But Odyssey and the MOD has done a good job of keeping it under wraps.

As for the $30 million, do the math.  At $30k+ per day to opperate zues, the cost of conservation of thousands of artifacts, more archaeologist, emplyees, etc.  Its not a 1 year project.

I think its the fact that its an American Company, pure and simple!  If it was a privately owned British Company, I think there would be a different tone.  Just as if it would have been a Spanish Company on the Black Swan.

I think Odyssey is practicing good Archaeology and salvage recovery and is making tremendous strides in showing the governments of the world, that they can find and salvage these wrecks and bring history to the public.

Respectfully,

RGecy

Robert,

I don't agree with you about the attitude being different toward an American company. The British Government are fair and reasonable people with a high level of integrity in their dealings. Odyssey had no difficulty in negotiating a very profitable sharing of the cargo (90:10) on the Sussex about two years ago. Then they did what they did with the coins from the Black Swan. I happened to be in the British Department of Heritage that deals with these things on the day that was announced the removal of the coins, and saw their reaction at first hand. I am sure that the Black Swan approach and publicity has damaged Odyssey's reputation with the British Government and the British Public,  but it is clear that they were taking at a relatively early stage with the British Government (though probably not until they came across that skeleton) and I hope that a proper agreement is worked out, so we can all share in the knowledge, and so that Odyssey (and more important its shareholders) can get a proper return for their investment.

Mariner

RGecy if it would have been a Spanish company they would be in jail now for looting the Mercedes
Odyssey don't do things by chance, this has all been timed and planned to perfection.
The British government has to a make a difficult decision. And this decision will impact the Mercedes,
as both are Royal Naval war ships.
Apart from all the sue me sue you stuff and who gets the money, the world will be better off with all these
historical artifacts being brought back to be persevered for all.
Cheers, Ossy

["SideImagingSoft.com - Humminbird Side Imaging Forums"]

I am sure the Black Swan was a Black Eye for Odyssey, but the final word lies with the court.

And Yes, I am sure Odyssey is very calculating in everything they do.  That's how a business is run.  I am already calculating what I am going to do when I find my wreck! 

As for the attitude towards an American Company, its not necessarily the governments atittude, but the Archaeologist (and public) who cry fowl and say they are stealling our heritage, etc, etc.  I do believe the British Gov is very favorable towards working with Odyssey.  Again, the Sussex is a good example.

You cannot deny that these guys are pushing the envelope of deep sea salvage and Archaeology.  The only issue is, the do it for profit!

 I kind of agree with RGecy that at the very least it being a foreign company makes Odyssey less popular. I also think that if it was only about the artifacts and archeology the negotiations would be simple. So the way I perceive it, its a money thing and the govt of orgin holds all the cards. The question is; where does private enterprise fit in?....or does it? If private enterprise locates a historical signifigant or sovereign immune find, should they sweep it under the rug?

I agree with Robert on this one, i do have one difference of opinion though. Yes Odyssey has a black eye from the black swan dealings or so that is what we are lead to believe from Spain. But, Spain has not acted accordingly to salvagers over the years either. The Spanish government has recklessly pursued/accused of professional salvors over the years of pilfering "Spanish Heritage" wreck sites. This is the same government that pressures other countries, IE South American countries to do the same. Is it no wonder Ecuador and a few others have been so hard to work with. In my personal opinion, Spain's ruthless unprofessional manner around the globe finally came close to home to roost. Odyssey seeing the opportunity and they weighed their bet accordingly made a decision, a decision that someday may prove to be the right one. How many ships in our oceans without gold or silver do the Spaniards claim, their socialist and see the $$$$ signs ahead of everything else. I am sure they have some archaeologist doing it for the right reasons but, whenever gov't is invoved its either for political gain or for $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

RGecy, Robert I'm not criticising Odyssey for planning and researching their many targets, what I am saying is
when they denied they knew any thing about the Black Swan ( Mercedes ) when their is documented evidence
to the contrary that they had been researching the Mercedes and other targets for two years earlier.
The difference is the coins where found easily without major excavations, the Bronze cannons are there as well
but, this would only prove what ship they came off, so its easy to say "we were not given any time to bring
them up", Yea sure that's why they blew sand away to see exactly what marking  are on them.
It's like finding someones wallet, it has his licence with details and money, take the money and leave the wallet.
Question for sabre15
Can you tell  me when the Kingdom of Spain has sold anything off the so called Spanish Heritage wreck sites???
most of you make a living from SPANISH WRECK SITES ! Atocha, 1715 fleet and others.
I do agree with you it could be political but I think its more about having something that was yours taken away
under your nose and than having your faced rubbed into it.
What about the Galga Spain said they would split their Treasure, Try for one minute and pretend that hundreds of
American colonial naval war ships had sunk around the Spanish coast hundreds of years ago and were being
found and sold off . would you say finders keeps or what.
Spain is only claiming what is theirs, I hear France is now claiming one of their ships, funny thing that.
Cheers, Ossy

Ossy, I'm very interested in your opinion on just exactly what you think Odyssey Marine should have done from the moment they found all that treasure sitting on the bottom.

Tom

Hi Tom,hope you are well and staying clear from any danger.
Good question, my opinion of cause. The same approach as with the victory, To advise Spain they had found
what they believe is the Mercedes and negotiate a deal, this would have befitted both Odyssey and Spain
and all who love history.
Theirs no argument that Odyssey have the best Technology in the world to find any lost historical maritime
ship wreck, and they offer the world this key to bring back this history that I love so much.
It's the fine line of selling your ancestors jewels to fund your company, some of us can afford to buy
some of these coins and artifacts but most can't so the question to you, how can we all benefit from
these discovery's.
Cheers, Ossy

Thanks Sam, trying to remember to keep my head down when things get crazy. Heading back to Florida in just 10 more days for a two week break.   
I agree that in a perfect world that would be the way to go for the benefit of history and all parties involved, and it's really a shame that Odyssey and Spain do not share the same type of relationship as Odyssey has with the UK. However, Spains political position over the disputed international waters off Gibraltar kind of set the environment for Odysseys distrust towards the Spanish Government.
While I don't have a crystal ball to see into the future, I believe that the court will ultimately rule that the ship belongs to Spain, and some of the cargo, but the court will also award Odyssey the traditional salvage finders fee.

Tom

Ossy... Odyssey did ask Spain to participate in the project, and they said no.  It's ashame that some people in Spain can't see past their nose, and now it's costing them millions in legal fees. James Goold is the real pirate here, not Odyssey.

We may learn more about low alpha lead in the next episode of Treasure Quest. Does anyone know the spot prices?

Turning Lead Into Gold —
Thursday, February 12 at 10PM ET/PT
The Odyssey team wants to return to a site loaded with lead ingots. When the wreck was first discovered, it was quickly dismissed – it wasn’t their treasure-laden target. But since then, they’ve learned that the ingots could be an extremely valuable type of lead, called low-alpha lead, that fetches a huge premium in the specialized electronics industry. On the way to the lead site, the team plans to stop at two other sites — a German U-Boat and a WWI era ship carrying a huge load of military supplies. While the team doesn’t expect treasure at these sites, the archaeologists can gather valuable forensic data. They find both sites heavily damaged by fishing trawlers and heavy weather is moving in. The crew now only has one day to investigate what could be the cash prize of the expedition. Will the lead test to be truly low-alpha? If so, they’re looking at a multi-million dollar find that will see lead . . . turned into gold.

BBC Radio - Greg Stemm Profile...

http://tinyurl.com/awycn6

Ossy, we americans have balls, if we have ships out there and we believe are being pilfered we will go kick someones a$$. We will treat every wreck not just ones that may have treasure as important as every ship out there. Spain dominated the seas once and occupied and pilfered many countries, that is no longer the case, but yet they only care about "their vessels" which are treasure laden and do not care for regular type cargo ships.

Ossy, we americans have balls, if we have ships out there and we believe are being pilfered we will go kick someones a$$. We will treat every wreck not just ones that may have treasure as important as every ship out there. Spain dominated the seas once and occupied and pilfered many countries, that is no longer the case, but yet they only care about "their vessels" which are treasure laden and do not care for regular type cargo ships.

Sabre15 good response, I feel the same way, but I don't think it would have helped if the Spanish navy had sunk the Explorer
would have caused more problems, and as for the pilfering as you call it, all nations at the time did the same just because the
Spanish were there first ! we had those balls to go out and explore, but if you know European history you will know that conquering
others was the way it was done, the Romans taught as well.
And unless you are a red Indian your ancestors did exactly the same.
Jeff K you would have more information on exactly what was said to Spain. Did odyssey say help us look for Spanish wrecks or
we happen to come across the Mercedes and its cargo? what would you like to do? I am very interested in exactly what offer
Odyssey put to Spain.
Ossy

 Ossy, just for the sake of speculation, What would you think to be a fair arrangement if Odyssey and spain were working together?

Ossy... I copied the following from an affidavit of Gregory P. Stemm filed with the Court.

Thanks Jeff, I don't know exactly what was discussed between Odyssey and Spain but on the face of it,
It looks like Spain made a poor decision, I would like find out Spain side of what happen.
As I have said before I would like to see Odyssey work with Spain, I would love Spain to go out in the field
and recover all their lost ships, but I know this won't happen, their next best option is Odyssey !
4theMoney, A 50/50 split, Spain keeping all major historical artifacts would be fair, there has never been a
argument on Odyssey being paid for their work, Its more on the smash and grab and the Political undertones
on Gibraltar with our friends the English.
Cheers, Ossy

Ossy... I copied the following from an affidavit of Gregory P. Stemm filed with the Court.

Jeff, Odyssey is a public company that needs to have profit. The Spanish law about underwater cultural patrimony #16/1985 http://www.mcu.es/bibliotecas/docs/Articulo66PHE.pdf 
it doesn't recognize profit in all related with this patrimony. An agreement had meant to go against this law.

If smash and grab is the biggest problem, maybe spain and other countries should outlaw fishing! Lets see them break the seafood industry! Let efficien tcompanie such as Odyssey go get these artifacts and treasures before they are gone. Use some transparency Odyssey will show all their cards if they know their not being screwed. Its the greed from Spain and whoever else that ruins deals such as this. Transparency is the answer, yet will Spain cooperate 100% or hold back?

Ossy... I copied the following from an affidavit of Gregory P. Stemm filed with the Court.

Jeff, Odyssey is a public company that needs to have profit. The Spanish law about underwater cultural patrimony #16/1985 http://www.mcu.es/bibliotecas/docs/Articulo66PHE.pdf 
it doesn't recognize profit in all related with this patrimony. An agreement had meant to go against this law.

Thank you Claudio for the information, I wasn't sure why Spain would not deal with Odyssey.
It,s their law good or bad, I think it could be modified to be more flexable, it was written in 1985
with technology now things have changed. the problem for odyssey it showed their true colours
Hit and run and then play dumb, What ship? the coins must have been throw overboard 
sabre15 I agree on finding these artifacts before they are gone but respect must be given to the
nation of origin.
where do you get this "Greed from Spain" the only public company is odyssey and they sell lots of ship
wreck coins and artifacts for profit.
Can you give me one example when Spain has sold any of its historical artifacts for profit ?
Odyssey has a whole Webb page full of them, Odyssey did not have to take the coins, they could have
easily left them, knowing they where from a Royal war ship, that's when Greed gets the better of you
whats $500 million, Spain spends more that that a year just cleaning their streets.
maybe Spain should buy O.M.R
Cheers Ossy

[Spain Expressly Abandon’s Its Shipwrecks!]

Spain Expressly Abandon’s Its Shipwrecks!

Intro by Pat Clyne

In early 1965 a well known Florida salvor asked his attorney to write to the Embassy of Spain in Washington D.C. to determine if he had the right to salvage Spanish shipwrecks. This Salvor and the response he received from Spain’s ambassador, unknowingly to them at the time, was to set a precedent that undoubtedly will be used in a maritime court of law to leave unfettered access of Spain’s wrecks and their cargo to the State of Florida. In turn, Florida’s long tradition of cooperation with private salvors will allow them, with a permit from that State to continue to recover Spanish vessels and their contents legally without having to consult Spain for their “approval”

The argument that has been used in the courts for some time now has been that of semantics. The courts did not easily interpret the word abandonment. Even the Supreme Court of the United States debated the argument over “express” abandonment and “implied’ abandonment. Implied wasn’t good enough, even if a nation made no attempt at salvaging their own vessel which lay rotting on the ocean’s bottom for hundreds of years. In order to truly abandon a vessel you must “express” it in a document. Something similar to,  “Hey, we don’t want it, you can have it!” Now, if a country wrote that in a document and signed it, they would have explicitly “EXPRESSED” their feelings of disowning ownership toward that vessel and it’s contents.

In regards to content, cargo or Treasure’s, (a word not often used any longer in the courts because of its lack of archaeological Political Correctness.) if such a document would have also included that wording there would be absolutely no misunderstanding of their intent. The following is the reply our salvor received from the Ambassador of Spain, which is the definitive, official and legal definition of the phrase “Expressed Abandonment.”

Letter From the Ambassador of Spain

Washington, D.C.
January 11, 1965

THE AMBASSADOR OF SPAIN
WASHINGTON. D.C.

Mr. D. Victor de Avenell
3345-14th Street
Vero Beach, Florida 32960

Dear Sir:

Thank you for your kind letter of last December 20, which I read with extreme interest.

The legal question of the ownership of the treasure on the east coast of Florida can raise questions as to whether said state has rights to all or part of it, with or without compensation. I do not know what solution is found to this issue in the applicable law.

In any case, there is no doubt that the Spanish State may not claim any title to said treasure for the following reasons:

1.) If the discovery is considered "marine salvage," the owner of the ship and/or merchandise would have lost all rights because he abandoned any attempt of recovery.

2) If the discovery is considered a discovery of a treasure in the territory (including the territorial waters) under the jurisdiction of a state, in this case the state of Florida, the laws of this state will determine title to the treasure.

In most cases extinctive prescription would act against any right possibly reclaimed by a previous owner.

I thank you again for your interest, and I remain,

Sincerely,

Marquis de Morry del Val,
AMBASSADOR OF SPAIN

Hi Robert, 
the governments change, the laws and the opinions change. In 1993 Portugal took out a very permissive but very selective law. The following government swept it.

["SideImagingSoft.com - Humminbird Side Imaging Forums"]

Hi Robert, 
the governments change, the laws and the opinions change. In 1993 Portugal took out a very permissive but very selective law. The following government swept it.

We are not talking about Spanish law.  These wrecks are in international waters or other countries.  Once you abandon something, it is abandoned!

So, what you are saying is, its OK to abandon it today, but we may claim it again tomorrow! 

Spain is playing a dangerous game and if the rules change, they are going to end up being big time losers.  When it was published the Reales were minted in Lima, I immediately thought that Peru should try to stake their claim.  Essentially, Spain pilfered the Americas for a couple hundred years and their government feels they are entitled to said lootings indefinitely.  If a ship is discovered from the colonial era, they automatically claim ownership and are beyond uncooperative.  

With Peru stepping into the mix, they have a chance to set a very big precedent of ownership.  Their gold/silver, their treasure.  In all actuality, it would be benefit Odyssey to have Peru to win the claim.  Peru is very friendly politically with the States and more than likely they would be one of the 50/50 or better split nations.  They definitely know not to look a gift horse in the mouth, so some free money is better than none.  Also, with Peru winning, the precedent would be made that the origination is the important factor.  They are the ones with the heritage at stake, not Spain.  

Odyssey is a very lucrative outfit that know's the business and regulations.  Odyssey isn't going to spend $30k a day if they don't think they will be able to claim some ownership of the finds.  They have approached Spain in the past and Spain wants no part of them, because the Spanish government's attitude is that they should get it all.  If Odyssey by chance does lose to Spain, they should go back to the site and dump their findings.  If Spain wants it that bad, let them spend the money to recover it.  This is simply about money for Spain, not heritage.  Gold does strange things to people and governments are not exempt from its effects either.  As an archaeologist I can safely say that archaeologically, there isn't an institute out there that can compete with the standards Odyssey employees for deep see recovery.

Warships remain property of their sovereign nation, regardless if the wreck is in international waters.

Robert,

Am I not right in saying that the International Convention on Salage protects Sovereign Vessels from salvage claims? The question with the Victory is whether it is a Sovereign Vessel, defined being a State owned ship on. I do not know to whom the gold on the Victory belonged, and that would be an important factor in determining whether it is indeed a Sovereign Vessel, and therefore immune from salvage claims (although the Country owning a Sovereign Vessel can choose to have her salvaged)

As for the letter from the Spanish ambassador, while it was his opinion, and very helpful to Mel Fisher at the time, the opinion he states has since been over-ruled, at least in US waters, by the US Court of Appeals in the SeaHunt judgment. An Ambassador's opinion may be useful politically, but it is not definitive in a Court of Law, and as far as I know, it has not been specifically tested yet for a ship in International Waters. I don't think that Odyssey has tried to use it in the case of the Black Swan, for example, and I personally don't think it would stand up in Court.

Mariner

Sovereign immunity only applies to warships that have to fulfill very specific criteria – and must be on noncommercial service - there is no sovereign immunity for commercial cargoes. There is no legal mechanism by which Spain can claim a cargo on a merchant ship unless it's in Spain’s territorial waters.

"Sovereign rights on the high seas are affirmed in Articles 95 and 96 of The Law of the Sea Convention (1982). These provide a legal basis for the sovereign immunity of sunken warships and government vessels on the high seas. Article 95 states, "Warships on the high seas have complete immunity from the jurisdiction of any state other than the flag states," and Article 96 continues, "Ships owned or operated by a state and used only on government noncommercial service shall, on the high seas have complete immunity from the jurisdiction of any state other than the flag state.""

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-7h.htm

Well, that the judge's wisdom in Tampa decides when, how and where. Conjectures now is pure speculation.

If there is no sovern immunity on cargo, lets treat it like the trawlers, push the historic shipwreck debris aside and take the gold and silver.

"Hit and run and then play dumb, What ship? the coins must have been throw overboard 
sabre15 I agree on finding these artifacts before they are gone but respect must be given to the
nation of origin.
where do you get this "Greed from Spain" the only public company is odyssey and they sell lots of ship
wreck coins and artifacts for profit.
Can you give me one example when Spain has sold any of its historical artifacts for profit ?
Odyssey has a whole Webb page full of them, Odyssey did not have to take the coins, they could have
easily left them, knowing they where from a Royal war ship, that's when Greed gets the better of you
whats $500 million, Spain spends more that that a year just cleaning their streets.
maybe Spain should buy O.M.R
Cheers Ossy"

Odyssey is the only public company in this trade because they are a first, just like you said spain were great conquerors and we americans should have done the same. Well the chickens come home to roost my friend, spain does not control the oceans anymore. Spain should sit back like they expected everyone else 400 years ago and accept they have no contro over this! Spain sold Florida, that was historic, there is your example! $500 million to clean streets, thats how Socialist do it, we allow the free market do decide who will clean the streets, right now Odyssey is winning that contract!

Sabre15, Jamie heard the news ? Odyssey has competition, you mention ass kicking, well the Spanish navy carry
big guns and they will control their Territorial waters !
We Americans should have done the same. You did!!!! forget about the red Indians you forced off the land?
I wouldn't be counting my chickens yet mate !
The game has changed
Ossy

Jeff,

It is not true that Soverein Vessel immunity does not extend to its cargo.

So the question is whether the Victory was on non-commercial duties. As I said earlier, I am not sure of the circumstances surrounding the gold that the Victory was carryng. Did it belong to the British Government, or was some of it privately owned?

Mariner
 

Mariner... I'm talking about commercial cargo.

"Ships owned or operated by a state and used only on government noncommercial service shall, on the high seas have complete immunity from the jurisdiction of any state other than the flag state."

Sovereign immunity does not extend to commercial cargoes. The commercial cargo on the Mercedes is not immune, as is the commercial shipment of the Portuguese merchants on the Victory. Any State owned cargo on these ships would be immune, such as any specie taken as prizes or money to operate the fleet.

"Research shows that substantial quantities of gold were being carried on a regular basis from Lisbon to England on the larger Royal Navy ships during this period. The Dutch financial publication Amsterdamsche Courant of November 18/19, 1744, reported that Balchin’s flagship carried a huge sum of money when she foundered: “People will have it that on board of the Victory was a sum of 400,000 pounds sterling that it had brought from Lisbon for our merchants.” Based on contemporary accounts of coinage being shipped from Lisbon at the time, this cargo most likely consisted of gold coins minted in Portugal and Brazil, although it could also have included other colonial coinage. If gold, this would equate to approximately 100,000 1 oz. gold coins weighing approximately 4 tons.

Additional research indicates that there were large quantities of both silver and gold coins aboard the Victory from enemy prize ships captured by Balchin’s fleet. Research suggests that this prize money will also likely be located at the wreck site."

Jeff,

Thanks for that information.

I have no problem with the fact that the Mercedes was carrying commercial cargo, which was not immune from salvage. My problem with that case is the manner in which Odyssey acted in removing ALL the coins before going to court.

If it proves to be the case that the Victory was also carrying commercial cargo, then that too will be subject to salvage, and the contemporary commentary that you quote suggests that might be the case. Maybe that is why the British Government is apparently being so cooperative. As I said, I do not know the circumstances surrounding the gold it was carrying.

However, I did want to pick up on your comment that no cargoes are protected from salvage. You saw the immediate reaction that it produced from Sabre15, and I am sure his was not unique.

Mariner

I suggest you quit getting all of your information from Wikipedia and the cartoon network!

Spain is trying to claim that they paid restitution to the merchants/heirs of the Mercedes, when in fact they never did. Shame on Mr. Goold! Here's a link to a court motion filed by David Horan for some of the heirs. Some here will remember he represented Mel Fisher.

http://tinyurl.com/ae4drg

Odyssey's Court Motion...

Spain is dead in the water on sovereign immunity.

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federa...da/flmdce/8:2007cv00614/197978/179/

New article in todays paper: http://www.tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/article975768.ece.

 Good article.

Jeff,

It does look as if Odyssey will win the action, because Spain cannot show that the coins came from a vessel that was on purely non-commercial duty, and in that case it is right that Odyssey should get the verdict. However, that would have been the outcome if Odyssey had taken only a few of the coins, to demonstrate their existence, and then asked to be given salvage rights for the rest. If they had done this, they would have avoided a lot of the rancour.

Mariner

Jeff,

It does look as if Odyssey will win the action, because Spain cannot show that the coins came from a vessel that was on purely non-commercial duty, and in that case it is right that Odyssey should get the verdict. However, that would have been the outcome if Odyssey had taken only a few of the coins, to demonstrate their existence, and then asked to be given salvage rights for the rest. If they had done this, they would have avoided a lot of the rancor.

Mariner

Mariner... Here's the problem with your theory. The US courts cannot protect the wreck site. The court can only protect what Odyssey brought into their jurisdiction. Therefore, Spain could go to the wreck site and salvage the rest of the coins, and the court couldn't stop them. Odyssey did the right thing.

OJ managed a similar trick but luck where he is now.

Jeff, words are cheap. " Odyssey did the right thing "
Their actions speak louder than words !
Ossy

 Jeff is right. Given Spains "Bad Behavior", I doubt odyssey could have ever gone back to their site. Posession is 9/10 of the law.
  Ossy. You are obviously reasonable since you acknowlege that partnerships with the Spanish Govt would benifit both parties. It is unfortunate that the Spanish Govt does  not want any partnerships.

I've tried to steer clear of the silly demonizing of Odyssey and/or Spain in this thread, but perhaps my mood is different today Odyssey made some poor choices and so did Spain. It was a toss up decision whether to approach Spain or not and in lieu of the difficulties with the Sussex, Odyssey chose not to. Some may have not seen it as the best choice. I personally believe they should have approached both Spain and Portugal and worked out the deal ahead of time. But they didn't. It doesn't make them the demons that some seem to enjoy posting about.

Spain also over-reacted by flexing their muscles when the news came out. Forcing private vessels to surrender like drug runners hardly will endear a company like Odyssey to collaborate with them on future wrecks. Spain could have taken the high road and tried a more collaborative approach for long-term benefit. But they didn't. This doesn't make them the evil empire, either. They just made some poor choices. Seems as though some treasure hunters "need" an evil empire to fight.

Let the court decide and trust that both Odyssey and Spain can learn from this. I think they already have to some extent.

I know I risk the rolling of eyes from both sides of the proverbial line in the sand. Oh well. I guess that whoever wins this pissing match will still be standing in a big puddle of piss.

I've tried to steer clear of the silly demonizing of Odyssey and/or Spain in this thread, but perhaps my mood is different today Odyssey made some poor choices and so did Spain. It was a toss up decision whether to approach Spain or not and in lieu of the difficulties with the Sussex, Odyssey chose not to. Some may have not seen it as the best choice. I personally believe they should have approached both Spain and Portugal and worked out the deal ahead of time. But they didn't. It doesn't make them the demons that some seem to enjoy posting about.

Spain also over-reacted by flexing their muscles when the news came out. Forcing private vessels to surrender like drug runners hardly will endear a company like Odyssey to collaborate with them on future wrecks. Spain could have taken the high road and tried a more collaborative approach for long-term benefit. But they didn't. This doesn't make them the evil empire, either. They just made some poor choices. Seems as though some treasure hunters "need" an evil empire to fight.

Let the court decide and trust that both Odyssey and Spain can learn from this. I think they already have to some extent.

I know I risk the rolling of eyes from both sides of the proverbial line in the sand. Oh well. I guess that whoever wins this pissing match will still be standing in a big puddle of piss.

Thank you Darren for the most sane post in this thread.
/V

Jeff,

It does look as if Odyssey will win the action, because Spain cannot show that the coins came from a vessel that was on purely non-commercial duty, and in that case it is right that Odyssey should get the verdict. However, that would have been the outcome if Odyssey had taken only a few of the coins, to demonstrate their existence, and then asked to be given salvage rights for the rest. If they had done this, they would have avoided a lot of the rancor.

Mariner

Mariner... Here's the problem with your theory. The US courts cannot protect the wreck site. The court can only protect what Odyssey brought into their jurisdiction. Therefore, Spain could go to the wreck site and salvage the rest of the coins, and the court couldn't stop them. Odyssey did the right thing.

I agree, Odyssey did the right thing.  BTW, nothing against Spain, if they or Odyssey find U.S. colonial ships in international waters, they should have at them.

Darren... Scroll up to my post #542, and you'll see Odyssey tried to work with Spain many times. What more could they do? Spain left them no choice, or I should say the Minister of Culture left them no choice. Not all in Spain are against Odyssey.

P.S. No reason to bring Portugal into this. The wreck site is over 24nm from Portugal.

Seems as though some treasure hunters "need" an evil empire to fight.

Perhaps some 'keyboard' treasure hunters need an evil empire to fight, but I'll bet that the guys out in the field actually recovering this stuff would be quite happy not to have empire building government bureaucrats to fight against, from any  country.



 Jay

Thanks for sharing that, Jeff. I should have read that before - it's a long thread to keep up with Historically, it has been Odyssey's protocol to work with governments and owners, so kudos for that. I think it's the best way.

Well said, Jay. I'm not fond of political red tape and it would be nice to avoid. The flip side to that is that we live in a small world, and it's no longer feasible to sell cargo openly. Having gov't approval and protection beats looking over my shoulder any day. Besides, why risk having all my hard work lost in court for years on end like other cases we're aware of? I don't have to like red tape, but it's a current reality and (for me) it beats the alternative.

Besides, working with owners is the "right thing to do." Yes, I agree that in principle (and actuality), wrecks have been abandoned. These folks wouldn't go after them on their own. But the law of ownership is fast changing and it's the law that will decide. Better to err on the side of working with it than against it.

Darren... Scroll up to my post #542, and you'll see Odyssey tried to work with Spain many times. What more could they do? Spain left them no choice, or I should say the Minister of Culture left them no choice. Not all in Spain are against Odyssey.

P.S. No reason to bring Portugal into this. The wreck site is over 24nm from Portugal.

I don't understand how it can have so many doubts for such evident matter: in Spain the legislation about underwater cultural patrimony doesn't recognize the lucre. Odyssey, given its mercantile character, is a company that needs the lucre. They are two opposed and incompatible poles. 
Now we have seen it in Mexico, where it has happened the same problem. 
 
http://sdpnoticias.com:80/sdp/contenido/2009/02/16/333007

Odyssey has plenty of lucre.

Odyssey has plenty of lucre.

Then why they wanted to negotiate with Mexico?

[The company "treasure-hunting" in 2006 requested permission to Mexico twice to trace the wreck, but was refused.]

Mexico is old news. A Mexican newspaper reprinted a 2007 article last week, and now it's being picked up as if it just happened.

 "Nuestra Señora del Juncal" other Spanish boat in the crosshairs of Odyssey

por Arqueologia el 18-06-2007 09:45, publicado el 18-06-2007 18:30 by Arqueologia on 18-06-2007 09:45, published on 18-06-2007 18:30 La compañía «caza-tesoros» pidió en 2006 permiso a México en dos ocasiones para rastrear el pecio, pero se le denegó. The company "treasure-hunting" in 2006 requested permission to Mexico twice to trace the wreck, but was refused. En su web, la firma estadounidense presume de su solidez y de una experiencia de 15 años como aval. On its website, the firm boasts of her strength and experience of 15 years as security. En lugar preferente de su página en internet destacan la operación sobre el «SS Republic» realizada en el verano de 2003, un navío al que un fuerte huracán hundió frente a las costas de Georgia en 1865. In place of your website out the operation on the "SS Republic" in the summer of 2003, a ship that sank a strong storm off the coast of Georgia in 1865.

[The company "treasure-hunting" in 2006 requested permission to Mexico twice to trace the wreck, but was refused.]

Mexico is old news. A Mexican newspaper reprinted a 2007 article last week, and now it's being picked up as if it just happened.

 "Nuestra Señora del Juncal" other Spanish boat in the crosshairs of Odyssey

por Arqueologia el 18-06-2007 09:45, publicado el 18-06-2007 18:30 by Arqueologia on 18-06-2007 09:45, published on 18-06-2007 18:30 La compañía «caza-tesoros» pidió en 2006 permiso a México en dos ocasiones para rastrear el pecio, pero se le denegó. The company "treasure-hunting" in 2006 requested permission to Mexico twice to trace the wreck, but was refused. En su web, la firma estadounidense presume de su solidez y de una experiencia de 15 años como aval. On its website, the firm boasts of her strength and experience of 15 years as security. En lugar preferente de su página en internet destacan la operación sobre el «SS Republic» realizada en el verano de 2003, un navío al que un fuerte huracán hundió frente a las costas de Georgia en 1865. In place of your website out the operation on the "SS Republic" in the summer of 2003, a ship that sank a strong storm off the coast of Georgia in 1865.

This is a news reported 15 hours ago !!

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...J_NW76Yc4SvIgXJ8kYi7mhsTCQD96D2VF00

Great article
Old news
Ossy

HMS Victory Press Conference Video...

This is a video of the press conference held on Feb 2nd. It plays in six segments, so just wait for each one to load. Be prepared to spend over an hour from start to finish.

http://tinyurl.com/afrq9l

[El INAH basó su rechazo en que el proyecto de la firma estadounidense "no tiene propósitos de investigación ni cuenta con el aval de arqueólogos o de una institución académica de reconocido prestigio, condiciones sin las cuales es imposible autorizar este tipo de iniciativas".]

Read this Jeff K
(It's ok if you readed it or posted it here before)

El INAH basó su rechazo en que el proyecto de la firma estadounidense "no tiene propósitos de investigación ni cuenta con el aval de arqueólogos o de una institución académica de reconocido prestigio, condiciones sin las cuales es imposible autorizar este tipo de iniciativas".

May be Odyssey wants to repeat what they made in Spain but this time with Mexico,..why? may be they think, because Mexico speak Spanish, may be they are enough stupid to steal them another 500M

http://actualidad.terra.es/ciencia/...-niega-permiso-rastrear-3078603.htm

Poor Odyseey

Amona

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Odyss...Marine-Exploration-bw-14610559.html
" AS A SOVEREIGN WARSHIP, HMS SUSSEX REMAINS THE PROPERTY OF HMG " Odyssey !!! Read between the lines, we don't care if it
is in Spanish waters, It's Brittish and we have a 20 year deal !
The Spanish navy could do with some target pratice
Ossy
PS are they only Sovereign when you have a deal in place

Ossy... I copied the following from an affidavit of Gregory P. Stemm filed with the Court.

Jeff, why it disappeared of the negotiations with Odyssey in April 2006 Mr. Luis Lafuente, high official of the Ministry of Culture of Spain? 
Surely you are very well informed and you know the reason!

Ossy... I copied the following from an affidavit of Gregory P. Stemm filed with the Court.

Jeff, why it disappeared of the negotiations with Odyssey in April 2006 Mr. Luis Lafuente, high official of the Ministry of Culture of Spain? 
Surely you are very well informed and you know the reason!

Interesting, what's your information Mr Kramer? Silence is also golden.
Ossy

[He doesn't know. Don't answer !!!]

Ossy... I copied the following from an affidavit of Gregory P. Stemm filed with the Court.

Jeff, why it disappeared of the negotiations with Odyssey in April 2006 Mr. Luis Lafuente, high official of the Ministry of Culture of Spain? 
Surely you are very well informed and you know the reason!

Interesting, what's your information Mr Kramer? Silence is also golden.
Ossy

He doesn't know. Don't answer !!!

RMS Laconia Article...

http://tinyurl.com/dlvmjw

It,s getting harder each day for Odyssey, what I can't understand is, who makes up the value of the cargo's?The Victory
is now at 700m euro or $909 million us must be breeding in the water.
All we need now is the french to join in.
Ossy

Gibraltar Chronicle...

http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=15539

Ossy

It,s getting harder each day for Odyssey, what I can't understand is, who makes up the value of the cargo's?The Victory
is now at 700m euro or $909 million us  must be breeding in the water.
All we need now is the french to join in.
Ossy

Remember odyssey is working in Silver Spring, MD in High Definition, 1080i, Discovery is working for them, so, they're not getting so harder as you beleive.They got the contract with this TV network and "bingo!! the hit the real treasure.The only funny thing is see Obama sending them part of the stimulus to Odyseey,...wao!!

Jeff,

It appears to me that Odyssey are adopting exactly the right attitude with respect to the Laconia, and I am glad to see them back to doing the right thing, as they did in the case of the Sussex. It would be nice to see them readjusting their relationship with Spain.

Mariner

Gibraltar Chronicle...

http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=15539

Jeff is this a press release from OMR, there's no Author and why is it
a Gibraltar news paper and not a English mainland paper???
Mariner it may be to late for OMR with Spain, Spain have already indicated they will Protect and
recover their own underwater heritage with their own people and equipment and may I say, it's
about #*##* time!
Ossy

Good morning Ossy,  just a curious thought that keps running thorugh my mind, "How and When"?  they have shown a remarkable reluctunce to finance this type of operation in the past.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Ossy,

I am not sure that Spain will be able to protect all of its own vessels in International waters, or in the territorial waters of another nation, even if they wanted to do so. If Odyssey finds another Spanish wreck in International waters, they will still be able to go to an American (or other) court and apply for salvage rights, and be awarded the rights if the ship is not a Sovereign Vessel. Spain won't necessarily have much say in the award, but I think it will help all round if Odyssey follows the kind of approach reported in the case of the Laconia.

As you know, I have not been a great fan of Odyssey's recent approaches with Spain, but if they start following the right protocols, then they will earn the right to be recognized for doing so.

Mariner

Buennos dias, Don Jose, your question HOW. Using Spanish navy mine sweeper with ROV as
reported on previous post,( Spain is now in the Treasure Business ) When, not sure will keep
you posted.
Currently the Australian navy is using a mine sweeper to find 13 containers lost by a Chinese
container ship full of toxic chemicals outside of Brisbane. I think it's a good idea, the tax payers
are all ready paying for the navy and it,s equipment, may as well get good use out of it.
Mariner, GDAY mate.
As far as know it was only sovereign vessels that carried the Gold and silver that Odyssey crave
for ( Spanish war ships )
This is interesting> http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-7m.htm

Odyssey Marine doesn't even have the decency to register its ships in America....but Brother, they (Odyssey) sure do count on the American court system to pull their a$$ outta the sling and waste our tax dollar's

SWR, I hear the Ocean explorer has been struck off the register.
Ossy

G'DAY MATE to you too Ossy! I'm glad things have cooled down for you lot down under.

Thanks for he link. I have read Pixa's article before, and it is well constructed. However, under the laws of the sea treaties, not all military ships are Sovereign Vessels, only those which are on purely non-commercial duties. While it might be true that Spain mostly used its own or contracted vessels to transport its treasure, some of those ships were also carrying private goods for private traders, thus making them non-Sovereign vessels under the LOS treaties.

To give an example, nearly all the Manila galleons carrying treasure between the Philippines and Mexico were government-owned (because Spain could not get private owners to use their ships on this precarious route), but the majority of their cargoes were privately owned, so the ships were not on purely non-commercial duties. Therefore they were not Sovereign Vessels, even though they were owned by the Kingdom of Spain. Isn't that Odyssey's argument about some of the Spanish ships Odyssey have found?

Mariner






 

Mariner it has been proved by Spain's documentation which Odyssey did not expect that the commercial goods and royal
goods, where under protection by the crown under orders from navel command, England knew that Spain was being
drawn into the conflict with France and was using Navel war ships to protect its money.
Admission to this by English reports of allowing Spanish merchant ships to pass with no harm.
It's hard to argue it's commercial goods only when Spain have shown documentation to the contrary, odyssey did not
expect this with the Mercedes. I will give it to Spain they keep good documentation.
Odyssey better do their research a little more carefully if they are going after Spanish wrecks.
Cheers :Ossy

Thanks Ossy, and I understand what you are saying, but the criterion is not that the ship is carrying commercial goods only, it is whether it is carrying any commercial goods. If so, it is not on purely non-commercial duties, even if it is part of a naval convoy.

Mariner

Special Treasure Quest Episode Captures News As It Unfolds Of The World's Largest Treasure Recovery, "BLACK SWAN," And The International Battle For Its Riches
Mar 20, 2009 - 3:48:13 PM


Just-Announced 12th Episode Premieres Thursday, April 2

In 2007, Odyssey Marine Exploration (OME) announced that they had made an historic discovery in the Atlantic Ocean - seventeen tons of coins, worth an estimated half a billion dollars. On Thursday, April 2 at 10PM ET/PT, Discovery Channel will unveil the gripping drama of the "Black Swan" as it unfolded behind the scenes, from the moment the coins were discovered to the ensuing international legal battle over ownership. Filmed entirely in high definition, Battle For The Black Swan will air as a special 12th episode - and season finale -- of Discovery's TREASURE QUEST series.

Battle For The Black Swan begins in March 2007, with Odyssey Marine Exploration searching for five potentially valuable shipwrecks within a 600-square mile area in the Atlantic Ocean, between Portugal and Morocco. During the day's final target inspection, Odyssey's crew stood thousands of feet above the ocean floor as their Remotely Operated Vehicle (ROV), ZEUS, beamed onboard a live feed of coins scattered over an area the size of six football fields. Odyssey had just discovered what some have called the most valuable underwater treasure in history.

The episode follows the recovery operation, the transfer of the find to the United States by chartered plane, and Odyssey's efforts to conserve and secure the coins stateside. Odyssey registers a claim in U.S. Federal Court, but it's immediately contested. Spain is convinced the treasure comes from La Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes, a Spanish frigate blown up in 1804. Battle For The Black Swan is there as Spain blockades Odyssey's ships in Gibraltar, impounds their flagship, the Explorer, and arrests her captain. Who will ultimately get final possession of the "Black Swan" treasure? The ongoing Federal Court battle for the rights to the coins continues to this day.

P.S.  There are some on this forum and in Spain that will not like what they see.  

Good, I can't wait to see this episode.  The last couple of episodes have been lacking in the treasure hunting department.  I can only watch so many WWII submarines. 

Special Treasure Quest Episode Captures News As It Unfolds Of The World's Largest Treasure Recovery, "BLACK SWAN," And The International Battle For Its Riches

P.S.  There are some on this forum and in Spain that will not like what they see.  

LOL, Jeff!  Do ya think! I for one am looking forward to seeing it. I will have the wife DVR it so I can see in in June when I head back to the States for a break. At the very least, it should spark some spirited discussion.

Tom... This Thursday's episode should be interesting. It's about the RMS Laconia.

RMS LACONIA was a Cunard Liner of 18,099grt, and built in 1911, by Swan Hunter & Wigham Richardson. On the outbreak of WWI, RMS Laconia was turned into an Armed Merchant Cruiser in 1914, and based at Simonstown in the South Atlantic, from which she patrolled the South Atlantic and Indian Ocean until April 1915. She was then used as a headquarters ship for the operations to capture Tanga and the colony of German East Africa. Four months later she returned to the patrolling of the South Atlantic. She was handed back to Cunard in July 1916, and on September 9th, resumed service. On the 25th February 1917, she was torpedoed by the German submarine U-50, 160 miles NW x W of the Fastnet while returning from the United States to England with 75 passengers (34 first class and 41 second class) and a crew of 217 under the command of Captain Irvine. The first torpedo struck the liner on the starboard side just abaft the engine room, but did not sink her. Twenty minutes later a second torpedo exploded in the engine room, again on the starboard side, and the vessel sank at 10:20pm. Twelve people were killed, six crew and six passengers, including two American citizens. It was reported in the New York Times of February 27, 1917, that the RMS Laconia carried 1000 bars of silver, very valuable registered mail, and a large quantity of specie (132 boxes of silver coins).