Odyssey Marine Article...

Hi Tom, still staying out of trouble, I would love to see the last episode, is there any way I can download it ?
maybe Odyssey can send me a DVD
Sam

Ossy,
For previous full episodes try the homepaged, http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/treasure-quest/treasure-quest.html . I would expect this Thursday's episode to be on there next week.

Today Show Video...

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/29856469/

Thanks Philvis for the link, unfortunately it comes up, not available in your area ( Australia )
any other links ?
Cheers, Ossy

Good evening Jeff ( morning here in Australia ) I still can't believe Greg Stemm is still saying no ship wreck, :icon_scratch what qualifies as a ship wreck you have cannons on the site, plates, parts from the rudder and that's right, coins! and I'm sure
a lot more that Odyssey haven't shown us.
I see his dropped that the coins where thrown over broad line, I like his new one " we have ancestors from the merchants that
want their cut, thus can only be a commercial 
The problem I see is Odyssey is devaluing the coins, by saying no shipwreck ( unknown ) as you know history adds a huge
value to coins. e.g Atocha, and as seen on the short video the silver coins are in poor condition, if sold as unknown shipwreck
coins they won't be worth very much. History sells. If odyssey win's the court battle? will they then say we have a name for
the Black swan or sold as abandoned coins from the Atlantic
Your comment " There are some on this forum and in Spain that will not like what they see
So Jeff the film is not edited
Ossy

Ossy, try this link.

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/treasure-quest/index.html

It only has two episodes for the moment.  I think more will probably be added in the coming weeks as the shows are still currently airing here stateside.  Some episodes are good...some not so.

Thank You Philvis, getting closer, the clip starts but then stops with " not available in your area " and it's only on the
Odyssey clips. I have the discovery channel, I will have to wait till they show it down under
Thanks again, Sam

I have just watched the last of the Treasure Quest episodes about the finding of the Laconia. I am pretty certain that the principle in American Admiralty claims is that it is first to thye wreck that counts, not first to the Courts, provided each party files a claim. So if it is the case that the other ship Odyssey found at the Laconia site had been gathering artifactual evidence to support an admiralty claim, then this TV documentary will be very useful to them in establishing their prior claim over Odyssey. Of course, we don't know if that was what the other ship was doing.

Very interesting series, though I could have done without all the glorification of the U-boats, which were responsible for so many deaths. My father spent the entire war crossing the Atlantic in British merchant ships, with the constant threat of being sunk by these marauders.

Mariner

[Discovery Of Black Swan Treasure Chronicled On TV Tonight]

Discovery Of Black Swan Treasure Chronicled On TV Tonight

By WALT BELCHER | The Tampa Tribune

Published: April 2, 2009

TAMPA - The season finale of "Treasure Quest" at 10 tonight on Discovery recounts the recovery of 17 tons of gold and silver coins from a sunken Spanish ship that Tampa-based Marine Odyssey Exploration is still battling to keep.

Cameras recorded the first moments when the salvage company picked up an ancient gold coin with a robotic arm from Odyssey's remote control submersible nicknamed Zeus.

The discovery of the controversial Black Swan ship and an estimated $500 million in coins makes for a dramatic season finale of "Treasure Quest" which has been renewed for a second season. Discovery announced the renewal on Wednesday.

The 12-episode series has tracked Odyssey's undersea explorations in the English Channel. But this final episode looks back at the Black Swan recovery and the court battle over the treasure.

The ship was located in March 2007. Odyssey code named it Black Swan but the government in Spain says the ship is the Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes — a Spanish warship sunk by the British navy southwest of Portugal in 1804 with more than 200 people on board.

The coins being held at an undisclosed location somewhere in Tampa include gold doubloons, or "pieces of eight."

The legal battle has continued for nearly two years and is expected to go to trial sometime this year.

On tonight's "Treasure Quest" episode, Odyssey co-owner Greg Stemm makes his case on why the company should be allowed to keep the coins that would have remained lost on the ocean floor if Odyssey had not recovered them.

I haven't really been following this debacle or thread, but I was appalled by spains (lack of caps intended) attitude on the show last night.  I thought their claim that "any shipwreck anywhere was theirs" was a bit excessive, but this? 

History books portrayed the spanish as brave and noble adventurers, when in fact they were nothing but crude, disease infested opportunists and thugs.  I have no sympathy nor respect for them as a country or "culture" (sic).  They are simply Al Queda from a different religion.

I do not apologize if this offends someone.

What amazed me is the hypocrisy about wanting to protect Spanish cultural materials on shipwrecks around the world when in fact an incredible amount of destruction has occured to hundreds of historic shipwrecks right in Cadiz Bay due to development and dredging. Marx talks about this extensively in the forward of his book, In the Wake of Galleons.

I know that there is two sides to every story, but last nights episodes really showed Spains true colors.  Let me guess, if I find an 8 reales MD'ing they are going to want it back.  I'm surprised that when the Odyssey Explorer left Gibraltor they let them blockade them back to a Spanish port with Military force.  What did the state dept. have to say about this.  They were an unarmed ship.  The courts are the place to handle this type of thing.  I've seen all I need to see to make my decision regarding this incident.

Is the Odyssey registered as an American vessel?  If so they should have asked for and received protection in international waters from the USNAVY.  If she is registered under another country I can see why the State department took no action.  Regardless I was disapointed to see the action Spain took in international waters and how they treated the crew.

MichaelB

Greg Stemm told me that when Odyssey was surveying near Gibraltar the Spanish Navy kept sending out bigger and bigger ships to try and scare them off. After it got to be too much, our State Dept. made a few calls and got the Brits to send a couple of harriers out to buzz the Spanish vessels, it did the trick that time anyway.

It will be interesting to see what happens when Spanish wrecks are located in other areas of the world now, will Spain send ships to try and grab treasure or just rely on lawyers?



Pirate Diver

Thats the hypocracy of spains actions. There are currently 3 spanish warships being salvaged in S. America, the Philippines, Bahamas and Florida, and soon, Cuba but spain does not say one word about them!

Greg Stemm told me that when Odyssey was surveying near Gibraltar the Spanish Navy kept sending out bigger and bigger ships to try and scare them off. After it got to be too much, our State Dept. made a few calls and got the Brits to send a couple of harriers out to buzz the Spanish vessels, it did the trick that time anyway.

It will be interesting to see what happens when Spanish wrecks are located in other areas of the world now, will Spain send ships to try and grab treasure or just rely on lawyers?



Pirate Diver

If Odyssey had an authorization from Spain why Spain used bigger ships to pursue them? 

From Odyssey PR: 
http://shipwreck.net/official_mfa_release.pdf

  Im glad the story is out in the open. At least now the average person can weigh in.......... In my opinion, there are plenty of artifacts for spain should it be the Mercedes. I dont see how all those coins would benifit the gov't of spain at all. Its just greed and jeolousy.

I haven't really been following this debacle or thread, but I was appalled by spains (lack of caps intended) attitude on the show last night.  I thought their claim that "any shipwreck anywhere was theirs" was a bit excessive, but this? 

History books portrayed the Spanish as brave and noble adventurers, when in fact they were nothing but crude, disease infested opportunists and thugs.  I have no sympathy nor respect for them as a country or "culture" (sic).  They are simply Al Queda from a different religion.

I do not apologize if this offends someone.

billinstuart you should go back to reading comic books or watching movies where the US saves the world, should
try reading American history and where you came from at least we know who are parents are!
I do apologise if this offends someone.
Ossy

  Im glad the story is out in the open. At least now the average person can weigh in.......... In my opinion, there are plenty of artifacts for Spain should it be the Mercedes. I dont see how all those coins would benifit the gov't of Spain at all. Its just greed and jeolousy.

Hi Mate, telling by the reaction of some, that the bulling by Spain got you fired up! please keep in mind that this was
edited and narrated for Odyssey to look like the Hero! Just like a movies, Odyssey is saving the world remember they are the
worlds leader keep it in your trousers.
4theMoney, I keep telling you Spain does not sell stuff on eBay, that's Odyssey only field.
Ossy

 I dont think there is any way for odyssey to gloss things over. Spain just looks bad....

Love the dog, we agree to disagree, the full story will come out!
Sam

Thats the hypocracy of spains actions. There are currently 3 Spanish warships being salvaged in S. America, the Philippines, Bahamas and Florida, and soon, Cuba but Spain does not say one word about them!

Very good question scubasalvor, I wish I knew. Odyssey turning up on Spain's door step may have hit a nerve.
I wouldn't complain to much, if they decided to claim their war ships you would be out of a job.
what Odyssey did was under handed, who knows if Spain Win's this court battle they may go after all their ships that
are being sacked, you may then have to turn to salvaging your own US ships.
Ossy

Well, no doubt who won this PR battle ... Odyssey, and by a mile.

The crucial question, from a legal standpoint, is whether the ship was performing commercial as well as State duties. I suspect it was, but I also think that Odyssey could have avoided a lot of the problems and still ended up with the same result by bringing up the key artifacts that would have identified the wreck, and having the debate about who owns the salvaged cargo in court and in private.

I look forward to watching the ongoing debate. Meanwhile, that episode made great television viewing.

Mariner

[Atrocities of the Spanish Conquistadors in the West Indies c. 1513This account is from Bartolome de Las Casas. He was a missionary and conquistador. He took part in the conquest of Cuba. These accounts happened after this and one has to believe he was very troubled by what he witnessed. There is no doubt about it; the Spanish were cruel in the conquest for gold and land. Events like these listed below did nothing to help relations between the vastly different cultures. Instead it was a major reason why the Taino and Arawak peoples became extinct.The Spaniards with their horses, their spears and lances, began to commit murders and other strange cruelties. They entered into towns and villages, sparing neither children nor old men and women. They ripped their bellies and cut them to pieces as if they had been slaughtering lambs in a field. They made bets with each other over who could thrust a sword into the middle of a man or who could cut off his head with one stroke. They took little ones by their heels and crushed their heads against the cliffs. Others they threw into the rivers laughing and mocking them as they tumbled into the water. They put everyone they met to the edge of the sword.One time I saw four or five important native nobles roasted and broiled upon makeshift grills. The cried out pitifully. This thing troubled our Captain that he could not sleep. He commanded that they be strangled. The Sergeant (I know him and his friends from Seville) would not strangle them but put bullets into their mouths instead. I have seen all these things and others infinite. Most tried to flee. They tried to hide in the mountains. They tried to flee from these men. Men who were empty of all pity, behaving like savage beasts. They are nothing more than slaughterers and enemies of mankind. These evil men had even taught their hounds, fierce dogs, to tear natives to pieces at first sight. AND, when, although rare, the Indians put to death some Spaniards upon good right and law of justice; the Spaniards made an agreement that for every one Spaniard killed they had to slay one hundred Indians.One time the Indians came to meet us and receive us with food and good cheer! Instead, the devil, which had put himself in the Spaniards, put them all to the edge of the sword in my presence, without any cause whatsoever, more than three thousand souls. I saw there such great cruelties, that never any man living either have or shall see the like.In three or four months (myself being present) there died more than six thousand children, which the Spanish had sent into the Gold mines.]

I do apologize if this offends someone.

Atrocities of the Spanish Conquistadors in the West Indies c. 1513


This account is from Bartolome de Las Casas.  He was a missionary and conquistador.  He took part in the conquest of Cuba.  These accounts happened after this and one has to believe he was very troubled by what he witnessed.  There is no doubt about it; the Spanish were cruel in the conquest for gold and land.  Events like these listed below did nothing to help relations between the vastly different cultures.  Instead it was a major reason why the Taino and Arawak peoples became extinct.

The Spaniards with their horses, their spears and lances, began to commit murders and other strange cruelties.  They entered into towns and villages, sparing neither children nor old men and women.  They ripped their bellies and cut them to pieces as if they had been slaughtering lambs in a field.  They made bets with each other over who could thrust a sword into the middle of a man or who could cut off his head with one stroke.  They took little ones by their heels and crushed their heads against the cliffs.  Others they threw into the rivers laughing and mocking them as they tumbled into the water.  They put everyone they met to the edge of the sword.

One time I saw four or five important native nobles roasted and broiled upon makeshift grills.  The cried out pitifully.  This thing troubled our Captain that he could not sleep.  He commanded that they be strangled.  The Sergeant (I know him and his friends from Seville) would not strangle them but put bullets into their mouths instead. 

I have seen all these things and others infinite.  Most tried to flee.  They tried to hide in the mountains.  They tried to flee from these men.  Men who were empty of all pity, behaving like savage beasts. They are nothing more than slaughterers and enemies of mankind.  These evil men had even taught their hounds, fierce dogs, to tear natives to pieces at first sight. 

AND, when, although rare, the Indians put to death some Spaniards upon good right and law of justice; the Spaniards made an agreement that for every one Spaniard killed they had to slay one hundred Indians.

One time the Indians came to meet us and receive us with food and good cheer!  Instead, the devil, which had put himself in the Spaniards, put them all to the edge of the sword in my presence, without any cause whatsoever, more than three thousand souls.  I saw there such great cruelties, that never any man living either have or shall see the like.

In three or four months (myself being present) there died more than six thousand children, which the Spanish had sent into the Gold mines.

Mr Kramer a little research for you !
http://www.lastoftheindependents.com/sandcreek.htm
and
http://www.populistamerica.com/atrocities_from_vietnam_to_gaza
the list is endless. " let he that is without sin cast the first stone"
Ossy

In Mexico at least the behaviour of Cortes was much better than that of Montezuma and his Aztecs. Cortes was fierce in battle, but mostly magnaminous in Victory. The Aztecs were extremely cruel to their surrounding nations, whom they kept as a ready supply of human sacrifices.

When Cortes arrived back after his expedition to Honduras, he was widely welcomed by the Mexican Indians, and his will will make enlightening reading for those who thought that the Spaniards were nothing but cruel.

There were excesses, and Pizarro and Gusman were  extremely cruel, but as always it is a mistake to tar everybody with the same brush.

La Casas was not quite the independent observer he makes himself out to be, and the catholic Church had its own agenda of cruelty and oppression, with some exceptions.

And, as others have pointed out, the white treatment of the Native population of North America was not always something to be proud of.

Mariner
 

Greg Stemm told me that when Odyssey was surveying near Gibraltar the Spanish Navy kept sending out bigger and bigger ships to try and scare them off. After it got to be too much, our State Dept. made a few calls and got the Brits to send a couple of harriers out to buzz the Spanish vessels, it did the trick that time anyway.

It will be interesting to see what happens when Spanish wrecks are located in other areas of the world now, will Spain send ships to try and grab treasure or just rely on lawyers?



Pirate Diver
Interesting story Pirate Diver, I have never heard of it? you think it would have been in the media.
Interesting the Spanish navy have the Aegis Weapon System made In good old USA. I wonder
who was more worried, Harriers are not that fast.
Ossy

Well my wife and I watched the Black Swan episode last night that I taped on Thursday.  She really could care a less about the whole treasure thing to be honest, but it was something to watch.  After about 30 minutes she turned to me and said, "How is Spain claiming treasure they pillaged from us?"  My wife is Peruvian by the way.  She went on to say it was the Indians who were forced to mine the gold and silver to begin with, so Spain shouldn't have rights to something that went under 200 years ago since it came from Peru.  Just about that time the narrator went on to say that Peru filed their claim as well.  That was pretty classic. 

I am not anti-Spanish or anything, but the political game they were "trying" to play was pretty bad.  The best part of the whole thing was their initial reaction was because Odyssey they were certain Odyssey was in their territorial waters where the treasure was found and then it turned into the sovereign nation argument.  I know some people say it was edited to look bad on Spain, but I am sorry, no amount of editing couldn't have made them look good short of cutting out mention of them.  Having 19 reporters on the Odyssey Explorer was well played.

I have an interview tape that Paco did about his trip to Odyssey to identify the coins but it is a .bup file and I can not open it. If anyone can convert to a regular file please let me know. It is also in spanish.


Diverlynn

I'm not sure if this will work for that type of file, but you could try this site...


http://media-convert.com/


Jay

Yeah, after thursdays episode on the Black Swan I started thinking about Spains many claims. What will be next, will Spain want all of the horses back that were left in North America? The horses we have here in Florida, am I encroaching on Spanish property or Heritage by owning a horse?

Tampa Tribune Article...

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/ap...siness-odyssey-marine/news-breaking

" we're marine archaeologists and we're the best in the world at it"
yea right !

Well, maybe they could say 'We're finders of long lost ships and we're the best in the world at it.'

More accurate ? 








Jay

The odyssey Explorer is registered in Bermuda, but has an American crew, so the US Navy can defend it, as it did with the Mersk Alabama.

BTW, Is the Odyssey Explorer in dry dock at Portland, England?

Hey, just saw this: http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/article983200.ece

Sorry if it's been posted before,  Just can't believe that the best deep water t-hunters in the world lost 24.8 mill last year?  And I've seen on other sites that the director is still making over six figures despite these losses?  Sounds very familiar in these times.

Posting a loss isn't always a bad thing. Loss from being wasteful is (as are many companies today). But loss from investing (which would be typical of a treasure hunting company) isn't always bad. For instance, if you invest 28 mil to search for a 300 mil wreck and don't find it this year, then you post that as a loss. But then if you locate that 300 mil in January (or just after the fiscal year), then that "loss" was well worth it. Of course, I'm oversimplifying, but I trust you get the idea. I have no ties with Odyssey. I just hope it brings clarity to their scenario.

The Mersk Alabama is a US registered vessel, thus the US Navy can defend it. The Explorer is registered in another country, so that is does not have to pay its fair share of taxes to the United States. It does not get the full benefit of the Maritime Security Program (MSP) as loyal American businesses. It is that old Flag of Convenience thing.

Actually The Alabama is owned by a Danish Corporation - Mærsk. So you could argue that it was actually operating under Convenience flag 

/V

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/...l282009/treasure_hunter_4-28-09.php

Magnometer?

Times Article - Greg Stemm Interview...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/men/article6328172.ece


Another Times Article...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6322407.ece

Jeff,

Thanks for posting those articles.

Gregg Stemm certainly knows how to handle himself in the media, and its good that the idea that wrecks are preserved by leaving them on the ocean bed, which is the basis of the UNESCO convention, needs to be re-examined.

If Stemm continues like this, I will have to resume the good opinion I had of Odyssey prior to the time they looted the Mercedes.

Mariner

Interesting Jeff. " Stemm said " Evidence suggest that she is probably the Mercedes. he admits !
" but we did not know to whom the coins belonged at the time " he makes you laugh.
The best part. " She could also be lying in Portuguese waters " so they could claim as well !The truth is coming
out ! Claudio was right all this time :
Portugal has made it quite clear, any Spanish ship wreck in it's waters belong to Spain !
I,m sure the judge will be very interested in Greg Stemm's comments.
Ossy

Sorry to disappoint you, but here's what the "Portuguese" archaeologist Alexandre said about the location of the BS site. Read it and weep.   

"Hi all, long time no see... I have been secluded away for the past week together with Portuguese and Spanish authorities brainstorming on our commom heritage.... I got one piece of information to share: this Black Swan site is 40 NM south of Cape Santa Maria, at c. 1320 meters deep.

Also, I would like to know any names and places of registration of ships engaged in deep water treasure hunting so that we can blacklist them in our national waters or, to say the very least, to keep a very wary eye on them on our surroundings."

www.treasurelore.com/charts/alexandre.jpg

Jeff read Solomon comments. Which site ? as we know from reports at the time, the Forecastle floated away!
" Two Sites " very interesting, we are getting closer to the truth.
Cheers, Ossy

I finally got to see Treasure quest The Black swan, After reading some of the comments
made by some here, I expected to see guns to head and smashing of camera's,
ships being rammed, I was disappointed ! no such thing, only a very professional control boarding.
I noticed the first time a naval ship approached when they were looting the coins, they all looked
guilty as hell, and made comments off " Lets Get out of here " Hm mm and this filming was all
controlled by Odyssey.
What really sticks out was the comment " we haven't got time to bring up a cannon so we can
Identity the ship " you have a 4 million dollar ROV which can easily lift a small bronze cannon,
12 inch's from the cannon, but theirs no time 
Lets hope the Judge isn't fooled by smoke and mirrors.
Ossy

The Times article has been corrected.

"So why did he move the treasure so fast? “It’s complicated, legally,” Stemm says. “One hypothesis so far is that the cargo on the site could be from the Mercedes,” he admits, “but we did not know to whom the coins belonged at the time, and it is still not clear. In fact, a ship believed to be the Mercedes was found lying in Portuguese waters far from our find, so that seems to contradict the theory. Her legal fate is now in the hands of a judge; it’s the only way to safeguard the integrity of the site.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/men/article6328172.ece

Come on Ossy, you cannot honestly say that the Spanish conducted a professional controlled boarding! haha!     Regardless of who the ship turns out to be, Spain acted recklessly and unprofessionally when it came to their "boardings" of Odyssey.  They did it on the "assumption" Oddysey was in their territorial waters which they were clearly not.  It didn't have skull bashings, but it easily could have.  I still believe Odyssey should have ignored the boarding attempt and waited for Spain to either ram them or fire upon them (now that would have made for good tv).  I think it is going to be pretty funny when the descendants of the Mercedes get a cut and Peru gets the lion's share of the coins.

I don't think that Peru has a real claim anyway. I think that it will end up with Spain and Odyssey sharing the coins, with Odyssey getting at least 80% of them. The Mercedes was not operating as a Sovereign Vessel and it is in international waters.

I didn't like the way Odyssey acted, but they seem to have cleaned up their act since, and the law is the law.

Mariner

Jahman

Don't post here a link like that one here in this topic, you're in Odyssey's territory with it's advocate.You can be in trouble

 

Jahman

Don't post here a link like that one here in this topic, you're in Odyssey's territory with it's advocate.You can be in trouble

Amona,

Did I miss something here? I didn't see anything that was out of place, and if you are referring to the link that Jeff K posted, I thought that it explained very well Stemm's supposed remark about Portuguese waters. Not a keen on what Odyssey did, but fair is fair.

Mariner

Does any one know the dates on the coins.

Does any one know the dates on the coins.

www.treasurelore.com/charts/Tedesco_Affidavit.pdf

So when did the Mercedes sink? The last date on the coins was 1803.

Mariner

So when did the Mercedes sink? The last date on the coins was 1803.

Mariner

1804, theirs no doubt the coins match the time line of the Mercedes, and no doubt that
OMR had planned and researched their target, well before they claimed their find of and unknown
shipwreck, they planned their escape from Gibraltar with military precision and even had their
sacrificial lambs hug out as bait.
Treasure quest gives a lot of insight of their planning, striping of the ships computers and equipment, any thing that would show location and proof of what ship it may be, were wiped
clean! OMR have said it was all legally done, Boy! they went to a massive amount of trouble and
cost to fly out not only the coins but all their sensitive equipment.
They were only feet from a bronze cannon that would identify the shipwreck but clearly chose
to ignore it ! the excuse of " we don't have enough time"  how much time did they
take picking up small coins they didn't have a problem with a 42 pounder from the Victory
a small 8 pounder would have been a walk in the park for Zeus.
Cheers, Ossy

Bob

I have been ignoring this board for a quite a while, but have been reading it the last few days. The same stuff still appears every time I read it.

Now the ship which was originally in International waters is possibly in Portuguese waters, and we should leave treasure on the bottom (except for the gold and silver that is, lets get that into a safe place somewhere only we know where it is) nothing has changed.

I would not be to quick to change your opinion. Selling second hand cars is still the same business (sometimes you have to polish out the scratches and fill the dents). And while OMEX are now showing some of the data they are not interested in to the rest of the world, (This is a good thing by the way) the basic facts have not changed. A change of tie does not make it right.

OMEX went about it the wrong way and should not be allowed to proceed with their claim but be made to go back to the site at their own cost and recover the rest of items to create an outstanding exhibition of whatever ship it turns out to be.( not to be owned by OMEX)

Spain should also have a better platform to base their claim from, and also should be told they have no claim either . They should then create a Spanish wreck preservation society which could use the services of companies such as OMEX and many other state of the art companies (there are plenty believe me) to find and excavate other Spanish wrecks.

The recovered treasure should be sold off and a foundation created to use the money for the good of the South American countries in the education and medical areas required there in.

By the way this will leave plenty of room for me to go and find anything I want without anybody bothering me all the time.

Smoke and mirrors work all the time

Not much changes

Mike

Hi Mike,

Good to hear from you, again. I hope you are well.

I have said repeatedly that I disapprove of the way Odyssey behaved in removing all of the coins from the so-called Black Swan site, but they have applied for a ruling from the Federal Court, who will decide how to apply the law in this case. The point I have made is that it appears to me that since that event, Odyssey may have seen the error of their ways, and gone back to proceding in a proper manner. They seem to have done that in the case of the Victory, for example, apparently having consulted the UK Government at an early stage, and worked with them in identifying the site and discussing the alternative way forwards.

It might well be that they have decided to do this for the practical reason that it is better for their image and better for their relations with owners of wrecks to do so, but that's OK, and better than the way they behaved with the Mercedes site. If somebody who is behaving in a bad way sees the light, and starts to reform their ways, it seems to me that they should be given credit for doing so, and then encouraged to continue their reform.

I do not know that Odyssey will ever repair their relationship with Spain, and they may have altered the way that Spain behaves towards future finders of Spanish wrecks, but the Federal court can decide how to treat the case of the Mercedes and the cache of coins. My belief is that Odyssey would have been awarded a substantial proportion of the Mercedes cargo, in any case, if they had recovered only a few of the coins and communicated properly with Spain. Without having studied the case in great detail, it appears to me that the Mercedes was not acting as a Sovereign Vessel on that particular voyage, and sank in International waters. If that is the case, then somebody finding her is entitled to an appropriate salvage award. If it turns out that the wreck is in Spanish waters, and the coins were recovered in Spanish waters, then that would be a different matter, as the US Court would not have jurisdiction.

I think that it would be an injustice, and against the interests of legitimate salvors to apply the law in a different and perverse way in this case, though I hope that the court stresses the that potential salvors should recover only sufficient artefacts to identify the wreck in the future, and I hope that that Odyssey learn their lesson. It is in the interests of the whole TR community that they do.

Best wishes,

Bob aka Mariner




 

 

i have another question, the cions are from 1803, and came from south america , some where, does that mean they where minted in the americas, using silver mined in the americans, if that is so, what country is stamped on the coins. 

I believe most of the coins were minted in Peru. A friend of mine and Diverlynn, also an officer in the Peruvian Navy was sent to Tampa to inspect the coins  and he verified this fact. He is considered one of the world's leading experts on their coinage and has written several books on the subject. His name is Francisco Yabar Acuna. Great guy!


Pirate diver 

I have a copy of the interview but it is 14 minutes and I can't figure out how to shorten it so it is only 10 minutes and put it on youtube. It's too long for TN. I still do not know what was said (its in spanish). Maybe I can bring the copy on a disk to the cookout June 6 and someone can translate.

diverlynn

Hey Lynn,we can send a copy back here to Northern Mexico(San Antonio)when I get there next week.Think I can get it translated for all of us.See ya Tuesday P.M.Tom

Hi Lynn, good to see you back and in good health. If you need help with the translation more than happy to help.
Cheers, Ossy

i have another question, the coins are from 1803, and came from south America , some where, does that mean they where minted in the Americas, using silver mined in the Americans, if that is so, what country is stamped on the coins. 

Spanish Colonial Coins ' Bust' or Portrait type, what Odyssey have shown us so far, they are minted in Lima ( Peru )
check their web site, they are selling replicas.
Ossy

 
THE replica coins are from 1779 .

Judge Pizzo has recommended the following:

RECOMMENDED:

1. Spain’s motion to dismiss (Doc. 131) and motion to vacate the arrest warrant (Doc. 132) be granted.

2. Odyssey’s amended complaint (Doc. 25) be dismissed and the warrant of arrest (Doc. 5) be vacated.

3. All claims against the res be denied without prejudice.

4. Odyssey, as the substitute custodian, be directed to return the res to Spain within ten
days or as mutually agreed.

Judge Merryday will make the final ruling.

Here's Odyssey's response.

Odyssey Will Object to Magistrate's Recommendation to Dismiss "Black Swan" Case
On Wednesday June 3, 2009, 7:57 pm EDT
  
TAMPA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (Nasdaq:OMEX - News), pioneers in the field of deep-ocean shipwreck exploration has announced plans to file a written objection to the U.S. Federal Court Magistrate’s recommendation that Spain’s Motion to Dismiss the “Black Swan” case be granted and that the property recovered be returned to Spain. The recommendation which was filed June 3, 2009 concludes that the court lacks jurisdiction to hear the case.

Odyssey brought the “Black Swan” case to federal court in the spring of 2007 after discovering a site in the Atlantic Ocean with over 500,000 gold and silver coins. Spain filed a claim in the case asserting that the cargo came from the Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes, a Spanish vessel which exploded in 1804. Despite the absence of a vessel at the site, the District Court Magistrate has indicated that he believes that there is sufficient evidence to confirm that the site is that of the Mercedes and that the vessel and its cargo are subject to sovereign immunity.

“We will object to the Magistrate’s recommendation,” said Melinda MacConnel, Odyssey’s Vice President and General Counsel. “This is clearly a case where there are many relevant issues of fact that have been disputed, including the issue of whether the Mercedes was on a commercial mission and whether the property recovered belonged to Spain. I presume that the claimants in the case who assert ownership rights by virtue of the fact that their ancestors owned a portion of the cargo will join us in objecting.”

“I’m very surprised,” said Odyssey’s CEO, Greg Stemm. “Odyssey has done everything by the book. For the Court to find that enough evidence exists to conclusively identify the site as the Mercedes and that neither Odyssey nor the claimants who owned the property have any legal interest is just wrong. I’m confident that ultimately the judge or the appellate court will see the legal and evidentiary flaws in Spain’s claim, and we’ll be back to argue the merits of the case.”

Odyssey will file its objection and will continue to vigorously defend its rights to what it has legally recovered and submitted to the jurisdiction of the court.

Thanks Jeff for the  post of this decision.

Well it's the correct  decision for this law suit. (fly by night and suffer the consequences, if they had done the right thing they would have been victorious a year and a half ago and the stock would have been a great investment)

But I do not think that Spain should get the proceeds either, so I hope that the next episode in this now ridiculous saga the judge donates the proceeds to charity (I have a very good one if they are stuck for options).

On another note I wonder if Doc will now counter sue OMEX? could be just as big as the treasure case

Of course it is not over yet, many hundreds of thousands of $ to be paid to the lawyers still.

Big news Jeff, I know most here won't be happy, but the evidence was their, The Mercedes is
more important to Spain than the coins, its the tragedy and the deaths of its people who perished
after the unprovoked attack by the English, As we say down here " Less We forget "
I do hope Spain compensates Odyssey for recovery costs and conservation costs. It will be interesting to see what happens next.
Ossy

Mariner it has been proved by Spain's documentation which Odyssey did not expect that the commercial goods and royal
goods, where under protection by the crown under orders from navel command, England knew that Spain was being
drawn into the conflict with France and was using Navel war ships to protect its money.
Admission to this by English reports of allowing Spanish merchant ships to pass with no harm.
It's hard to argue it's commercial goods only when Spain have shown documentation to the contrary, odyssey did not
expect this with the Mercedes. I will give it to Spain they keep good documentation.
Odyssey better do their research a little more carefully if they are going after Spanish wrecks.
Cheers :Ossy

Ossy,

I have to hand it to you for calling this correctly several months ago. Personally, I thought it was going to go the other way, although I did not approve of the way Odyssey went about things. However, the fat lady might not have sung yet. I am sure that Odyssey will appeal, but I doubt that the Court of Appeals will even hear he case, let alone overturn it. I don't think there is an automatic right of appeal. I think there has to be a legally acceptable basis. I remember that in the old SeaHunt case, which was in the Court of Appeals, David Horan had prepared an appeal to the Supreme Court, but they refused to hear it.

Incidentally, I don't think that the Court can arbitrarily give the coins to a third party. If it continues to be declared a Sovereign Vessel, then Spain will get the loot.

Mariner

Hillary Clinton is the Secretary of State.  Spain's lawyer in this case is a lawyer for Hillary as well.  Appeal for about 42 months and then the Court will see things differently.  When the decision is reversed, disperse the goods.  End of story.  Silver and gold will not raise the dead... but it will raise your taxes.

Odyssey Provides Additional Update on "Black Swan" Case
Thursday June 4, 2009, 3:38 pm EDT
     
TAMPA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Since the announcement of the Magistrate’s recommendation in the “Black Swan” case, intense international media coverage has led to many questions that Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (NASDAQ:OMEX - News) would like to address.

What was this recent court filing by the Magistrate?

This was not a ruling in the case. The recent filing was a recommendation by U.S. Federal Court Magistrate Mark A. Pizzo that Spain’s Motion to Dismiss the “Black Swan” case be granted. The recommendation which was filed June 3, 2009, opines that the Court lacks jurisdiction to hear the case. Odyssey and any other interested parties may file written objections to the recommendation before any ruling is issued, and Odyssey intends to file an objection.

How do you feel about the recommendation?

While we respect the Magistrate’s experience, judges are not infallible, as evidenced by the multitude of verdicts that are overturned each year in appellate court. We believe key pieces of evidence were ignored or discounted that show the Mercedes WAS clearly on a commercial mission when she sank and that the majority of cargo (coins) aboard the ship was owned by PRIVATE individuals, not the government. “Returning” the coins to the Spanish Government when they never owned them defies logic and reason. We also disagree with the Magistrate’s apparent assumption that a vessel was found at the site. Furthermore, the Magistrate accepted facts as presented by Spain without giving Odyssey an opportunity to cross examine witnesses at a trial.

Do you plan to appeal if the Magistrate’s recommendations are followed by the Judge when he makes his ruling?

Yes. This recommendation is far from the end of the “Black Swan” case. We believe that the judge or the appellate court will see the legal and evidentiary flaws in Spain’s claim, and we’ll be back to argue the merits of the case. We will continue to vigorously defend our rights to what we have legally recovered and submitted to the jurisdiction of the Court.

Does this mean the case will drag on even longer?

This does not have a significant impact on our timelines or legal plans. We fully expected Spain to file an appeal if their Motion to Dismiss was denied, and so we have been planning and budgeting for an appeal in the case.

Are the other claimants in the case planning to object as well?

While we presume that the claimants in the case who assert ownership rights by virtue of the fact that their ancestors owned a portion of the cargo will join us in objecting, we cannot comment for them or for Peru.

Does this affect your current operations?

No, our shipwreck operations continue to be focused in the “Atlas” search area with both of our ships working in the English Channel. We also have been planning additional operations for 2009 in other areas of the world.

Does this affect your plans for an HMS Victory agreement?

No. We are continuing to work cooperatively with the UK Government toward a negotiated agreement as stated in the filing by their attorneys. As demonstrated by our partnering agreement on the shipwreck of HMS Sussex, a sovereign immune British warship, we have a history of working cooperatively with the UK Government. An overview of this agreement is available at www.shipwreck.net/pam.

How does this affect your balance sheet?

It does not have any effect on our balance sheet. The “Black Swan” coins were never treated as assets on our balance sheet.

Does this recommendation mean you will be changing your business model?

No. This particular situation is unique and our portfolio of potential shipwreck targets includes many merchant wrecks more like the SS Republic where there are no government ownership issues. In the case of the SS Republic, we obtained title to the shipwreck and its cargo less than eight months after the discovery of the shipwreck site.

There are also other governments who are open to cooperating with Odyssey, and who are enthusiastic about our potential partnership proposals. Our model is especially attractive in today’s economic climate, because we use no taxpayer money and fund recovery, archaeology, conservation and education.

What other shipwreck projects are you working on?

We currently have two ships working in the “Atlas” search area utilizing new technology integrated into the ZEUS platform which are expected to enhance search and inspection capabilities. Operations aboard Odyssey Explorer are currently being filmed for the Discovery Channel series “Treasure Quest.”

The “Atlas” search area contains at least five high value targets, one of which, HMS Victory, was located last year by Odyssey. We are continuing to search for the other high value targets and we are conducting additional operations intended to help identify a site already located.

We plan to resume work on the North Carolina project later this year. Shipwreck exploration firm and Odyssey partner, Intersal, Inc. has received a renewal of its exploration permit from the North Carolina Department of Cultural Resources for a site off the coast of North Carolina and additional surrounding areas, some of which correlate with Odyssey's “Firefly” shipwreck project. Odyssey has an agreement with Intersal, Inc. to pursue operations under this permit and to share in substantial research and data acquired by Intersal over the years relating to the target shipwreck and the work completed to date in the permit area.

The area covered by this permit and arrest is located near Odyssey's current “Firefly” project, which was acquired by Odyssey from BDJ Discovery Group in 2007 and includes one arrested site that has already produced a small number of gold and silver artifacts. The Intersal site and permit area may also be related to the high-value, Colonial-era merchant vessel believed to be located in the area. The agreements with BDJ and Intersal are similar but separate and the areas do not overlap.

In addition we have several other shipwreck projects in development which may lead to operations in 2009.

The next hearing will be interesting.  I still believe it should be finders keepers for obviously abandoned ships.  When I say abandoned, I mean the country of origin of the ship has not made any attempts to salvage, make it a national historic site, etc.

If Odyssey is not given the lions share in the end, I think that Peru and the descendants of the money should get it.  The gold came from Peru, more than likely as a result of the toil of the natives there.  If Spain can claim something over 200 years old, Peru should have the better claim being the gold came from there.  Since Spain wants to bring technicalities and sovereign rights arguments, there is no better argument than the gold originating from your country through labor of people in your country and on top of that, minted in your country.

Otherwise, if the ruling is in favor of Spain in the end after the objections are heard, I would promptly go back to the spot I found the coins and dump it.  Spain argues that Odyssey took their heritage and robbed a grave site etc., so return it.  We then can wait to see how goes the integrity of the Spanish government.  If they go and salvage, they are hypcrocrites.  If they do not, then we can at least say their hearts were in the right place.

 If odyssey doesnt get to keep their find....then I agree it should go back to Peru where it belongs. In fact, why not pressure the Spanish Govt to return the rest of the treasures that it took. If we believe in restitution for war crimes from WW2 and returning treasures of cultural heritage then why shouldnt the decendants of Peru receive that justice. If there is no statute of limitations for abandonmet of shipwrecks or soveign immunity then why should there be one against war crimes and cultural pillaging against Peru. The arguement "We conquered them" just doesnt do it, The Nazis conquered half of Europe.
  Sorry about the soap box, and I understand some people in Spain thinking they are being robbed, but those who were truly done wrong were the natives of Peru.  I dont even have a dog in this fight and I believe if we have to go down this road then we owe it to defend those to whom the treasure really belongs...... Once again, If we have to go down this road...and it shoulnt be rewarded to the third set of owners "Odyssey", then it should go back to the original owner.....Peru

I guess we would have to wouldnt we? Not that I would want to, but in my eyes pandoras box has been opened. I see you fully understand my point. Anything less would make us hipocrites. Just like Three kids arguing over a baseball card there is only one true owner. To me the two possibilities are that odyssey get the baseball card or the original owner(peru) gets the baseball card. If the american judicial system believes that the original owner should get back the goods, then we should give our land back to the native americans.

If odyssey doesnt get to keep their find....then I agree it should go back to Peru where it belongs. In fact, why not pressure the Spanish Govt to return the rest of the treasures that it took. If we believe in restitution for war crimes from WW2 and returning treasures of cultural heritage then why shouldnt the decendants of Peru receive that justice. If there is no statute of limitations for abandonmet of shipwrecks or soveign immunity then why should there be one against war crimes and cultural pillaging against Peru. The arguement "We conquered them" just doesnt do it, The Nazis conquered half of Europe.
  Sorry about the soap box, and I understand some people in Spain thinking they are being robbed, but those who were truly done wrong were the natives of Peru.  I dont even have a dog in this fight and I believe if we have to go down this road then we owe it to defend those to whom the treasure really belongs...... Once again, If we have to go down this road...and it shoulnt be rewarded to the third set of owners "Odyssey", then it should go back to the original owner.....Peru

Nice soapbox...but, when do we start giving America back to the Indians? Selective conquering is highly overrated   

SWR said: Nice soapbox...but, when do we start giving America back to the Indians? Selective conquering is highly overrated   

You are right on with this.

Deepsix

This isn't about right and wrong.

4theMoney, what would you have said if it had gone Odyssey way Give it back to Peru? I'm interested in your honest
response.
http://www.abc.es/gestordocumental/...s/Cultura/ody_report_and_recomm.pdf
Very well written report on the decision, By the Judge.
Ossy

I STILL THINK THERE IS SOMETHING FISHY ABOUT THIS WHOLE THING.
                                                    "pirate treasure"

 Hi Ossy!
       I am just saying that when we become purist, then we cant pick and choose or  become hipocrites. If we want to make the issue about the true owners then we cant walk both ways on a one way street. If the treasure isnt abandoned or belongs to a soveign nation then it belongs to Peru.
  I personally dont care about odyssey, but if everybody wants to make this a right or wrong issue then PERU is entitled to get their treasure back. All of it including what Spain has hidden away or in a museum. Its either one way or the other. And I believe that it is an issue of right or wrong because that is what we have made out of this issue.

Hi 4theMoney, I can't understain your train of thought " If Odyssey doesn't get to keep the loot,
then it should go back to Peru How does Odyssey absolve themselves from not returning the loot to Peru? If you feel they are the rightfull owners.
Stolen goods if that's what you feel they are ARE STOLEN GOODS ! Look we found them and we
are not Spanish so we can keep them You can't have it both ways my friend.
You forget the Spanish had been there for over 200 years for good or bad, many never returned
to Spain and had made their home in Peru.
The decision has been made, Flogging this dead horse isn't going to change things.
Ossy

 You are absolutly right Ossy....If the treasure is considered and deemed to be "STOLEN GOODS" then it should go back to its rightful owner...... PERU
   I think all of the treasure Spain looted should be returned.

on Vancouver island there is a lost tunnel that was made by the Spanish, the leach town tunnel is supposed to be filled with Spanish gold bricks.  if the tunnel is found who owns the bricks , Spain or Canada.   did they test the silver the coins where made from and compare it to the silver from Peru . actually i am not even sure if they even found the lost Spanish mine in south America yet.  do we even know that was where the coins where minted?
match the silver with a silver mine and you will get the point of origin .

THE replica coins are from 1779 .

here is one of the real coins, minted 1804.
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/ubbthrea...Number=1167436&site_id=1#import
 

Although I am partial to Peru, they are wonderful people and many poor people live with very little. If anyone gets a cut, even a small cut, I hope Peru gets a piece of the pie.

diverlynn

Although I am partial to Peru, they are wonderful people and many poor people live with very little. If anyone gets a cut, even a small cut, I hope Peru gets a piece of the pie.

diverlynn

                       I would have to agree, the story of the spanish mine on vancover island was acquired by rape pillage and slaughter, the decedents should have some, unless they to acquired their mines through slaughter ect.   

                                     

  there is a thing called statute of limitations, things get foggy after time.    i also agree the true finder should be rewarded the finders fee.
 

Although I am partial to Peru, they are wonderful people and many poor people live with very little. If anyone gets a cut, even a small cut, I hope Peru gets a piece of the pie.

diverlynn

Well said Lynn If any coins get sold, which I doubt, Peru should get all the proceeds. Hope you are feeling
great Lynn. Cheers, Sam

FOX News Interview...

http://www.foxnews.com/video/index....50217&referralPlaylistId=search|stemm

http://www.abc.es/gestordocumental/...s/Cultura/ody_report_and_recomm.pdf

Ossy posted this link to the magistrate's findings earlier. Anybody with a real interest in this case should read these findings. I have only just got round to reading it. Very interesting and complicated document. It acknowledges that some of the cargo belonged to private merchants and that the ship was therefore not on strictly noncommercial duties (and therefore not a Sovereign Vessel according to the laws of the Sea) but then goes through considerable contortions to claim that the US Court did not have jurisdiction because the Mercedes was a State-owned Warship.

It strikes me that the Court is determined not to get stuck in the middle of a political controversy, and even though I personally don't think that it should have Sovereign Immunity, I doubt that Odyssey will get the court to change its mind. This will make it difficult to get a US court to hear a case involving a State-owned ship in the future, unless an agreement is already in place between the salvor and the owner. I think that Odyssey brought this on itself by scooping up all of the coins, instead of just a few samples, but the repercussions will go far beyond Odyssey.

The thinness of Peru's case is covered briefly. Personally, I understand some of the emotion, but Peru never had a real claim. Neither would Bolivia, which is where the silver probably came from in the first place, if the source was the Potosi mine.

What an interesting case.

Mariner

 What a shame. Double standards about what is right and wrong. Obviously politics will play a huge role in this outcome and not common sense. While I personally could care less about who keeps the treasure I am very dissapointed by hipocrisy. I understand that interpretation of ownership is subjective, but I still believe that the original owners should be the recipients.

4themoney,

So whom do you consider the original owners in this case?

Mariner

Greg at Fox pretty much nailed it.  Constructive Abandonment.  That's the fulcrum of traditional salvage wherein a party decides to spend the time and money to challenge the elements and their own luck to reclaim something of value.  As it stands now, the issue seems to be one of sovereignty and the trend toward globalization, or the maintainance of a man's life by a collective group.  So we're really no longer talking about TH'ing, but about socialism and it's intrusion upon the sovereignty of the individual. 

Unlike Spain, Australia and so many other places where the individual citizen has been relegated to a single, managable collective identity that can be more easily handled by predatory politicians,  free enterprise (which I am aware is under serious attack here in the U.S.) still provides Americans with the ideal to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and make something of themselves.  This will always fly in the face of the socialists.  There is no room to squat on top of the fence where this ideal is manifest.

In so many ways, we have permitted, through our own ignorance and laziness, government to intrude upon the labor and love of the common man for the benefit of what is now a "ruling class".  As you can see, there are many "useful idiots" (to borrow an appropriate phrase from Uncle Joe) that are the grease used to propel these ascinine decisions by the courts.

As an American, I applaud Stemm for doing what could be done.  Face it:  what should have been done is not the issue... the issue, really, is that NOTHING had been done.

Well said Signumops, I can't agree with you more with this trend we see developing. However, I still have some faith that the system will work as advertised in the long run.

But then again, I did leave the country a week after the presidential election, and told the wife I would be back in about four years.

Tom

As an American, I applaud Stemm for doing what could be done.  Face it:  what should have been done is not the issue... the issue, really, is that NOTHING had been done.

Signumups,

I don't want to be confrontational, but I cannot understand your post.

I think it is ludicrous that the US Government has effectively nationalised a large part of the car industry, and donated billions to banks who have absorbed our money with not so much as a "thank you", but we now know that the previous free enterprize system here in the USA was full of holes. We current taxpayers, and our children, will be paying the price for many years. As far as I can see, Odyssey is no different from the GMs of this world, doing its own thing, and reaping a good living for its executives while doing little or nothing for its shareholders over the years. I have never bought any of their shares, and the risk page on their website, plus their history, provides several good reasons for not doing so. Their share prices have gone up from time to time, but that seems to have been mainly fuelled by speculation about potential finds. The analysis page I looked at suggests that they have never even paid a dividend. Perhaps a shareholder could tell me if that is not the case.

What I cannot understand is why they have not salvaged the cargo from the Sussex, supposedly worth billions, and for which they have had an agreement with the British Government for a couple of years. What's the corporate strategy there, and where are the benefits for those shareholders who bought in when that news was announced?

You applaud Greg Stemm for what he did in gathering up all 500,000 coins from the wreck, an action certain to put Spain's back up, and one that is entirely inconsistent with the established procedure for obtaining legal authorization to salvage a wreck. I am afraid that Odyssey are well on the way to reaping what they sowed, and in the process have made life more difficult for the rest of the legitimate salvage community, not to mention their own shareholders. I think that Stemm handles the media well, but that's not the acid test for the CEO of a public corporation. He seems to have improved his operational style more recently, but will Odyssey survive the current disaster, and is the Sussex really the asset it was represented to be? Time will tell.

Incidentally, I can't understand your comments about Spain and Australia, which seem to be unnecessary, irrelevant and inaccurate.

Mariner

Mariner:
Perhaps you would outline for us what exactly is the established procedure for obtaining legal authorization to salvage a wreck on the high sea.  That would lend a great deal of objectivity to my remarks, which did not draw any parallel between the giants of American industry and the Odyssey group.  I don't own any Odyssey stock either, and I would not give a pound of salt for a single share.  If you want to berate Odyssey, don't do it at my expense.

But, you have driven straight to my point, inadvertently.  I don't own any Odyssey stock because I know that any American firm with the moxie to pull off a recovery like that of the Mercedes (or whatever its name may be) will only suffer the consequences of an unsupportive legal system that is in the pocket of global financiers and fearful of criticism from the intelligentsia.  Ergo, I would estimate that Odyssey understands it can not rely on its stock sales to survive.  The company has re-capitalized itself by doing exactly what it intended to do.  Found treasure: recovered same.

Earlier in this thread I believe that it became clear that the Sussex was an issue to be decided between Spain and England with Odyssey standing idle at the dock.  No doubt this standoff fortified Stemm’s impression of what he could expect at the hands of the international community where his company’s interests were concerned.  In fact, now, in retrospect, I would say that the acid test of his stewardship was the decision to recover first and argue later.  His action was founded in fact, not in fancy.  I was not even there but it is pretty plain to anyone who actually works for a living.  And, by the way, the rest of the legitimate salvage community is already having enough trouble without any interference from Spain.  Incidentally, just what is the “legitimate salvage community” from your perspective?

As for Spain and Australia:  I was being polite.  I am not one to suffer the sophomoric, snide criticisms of good-faith contributors to this board who are subjected to the para-phrasing of the socialist media.  I don’t like it.  Did you understand that part?

As for Spain and Australia:  I was being polite.  I am not one to suffer the sophomoric, snide criticisms of good-faith contributors to this board who are subjected to the para-phrasing of the socialist media.  I don’t like it.  Did you understand that part?

signumops,

I have spoken English for over sixty years and American for about twenty five of those (Churchill, who had an American mother, said that we were two nations separated by a common language) but I have absolutely no idea what this means.

To deal with the Sussex, the ball is in Odyssey's court. They have the British Government's permission to salvage the wreck, which ironically is almost identical to the Mercedes in terms of ownership, and it is up to Odyssey to apply for possession of the wreck in the appropriate court. I know that Andalucia have stirred up some muddy waters, but Odyssey would undoubtedly have got the verdict had they proceeded at the time, and probably would now if they applied to the Spanish courts for permission to salvage the wreck. Of course, they may have decreased their chances as a result of their behaviour in the case of the Mercedes, but Spain now has a vested interest in protecting the principal of Sovereign Vessels. Because Odyssey and Britain reached a salvage agreement, the status of the Sussex was never subject to scrutiny. My personal view is that Odyssey have not salvaged the Sussex because there is doubt about how valuable it is.

Back to the Mercedes, for that is what the ship surely was, Stemm's responsibility was to recover treasure that would accrue to Odyssey and its shareholders. I don't agree with you that he met that responsibility, and I believe that he jeopardized that objective when he scooped up all the coins, and not just a sample that he could use to have discussions with an appropriate court and the potential owner of the wreck (as he did in the case of the Sussex, and subsequently did in the case of the British Victory).

As for the established process for getting a salvage award, I believe that it is to provide sufficient evidence of having found and identified the wreck to establish salvage rights to it. The preferred route is to then reach a salvage agreement with the owner, if that can be established, and then to approach a suitable court for permission to proceed with the recovery. This is exactly the way Odyssey proceeded with the Sussex and the Victory, and what they failed to do with the Mercedes. If it really is the case that the wreck cannot be identified, then the salvor can proceed to claim an "unidentified wreck", but this did not work in the case of SeaHunt, and seems unlikely to work in the case of the Mercedes. I think that Odyssey would have been far better off to have had the discussions with Spain before retrieving anything more than a sample of the cargo, perhaps some coins and one of the cannons. I also think that Spain hads been demonized far beyond what is reasonable, and would have been reasonably receptive to Odyssey if they had taken the right approach in the first place.

I happened to be with the British Government department that authorised the deal on the Sussex on the day that it was announced that Odyssey had flown the 500,000 coins to America. Their disappointment at Odyssey's action was very clear.

Mariner


 

 





  

mariner, it is great to read constructive arguments both for and against, you are an intelligent person
that calls it as it is.
signumops was having a dig at me I Know I'm in the Lion's den in this forum, because I back
Spain, So if you have something say "signumops" say it, If you have a problem with your government, that's your problem. I live in the best country in the World ( Australia )

Judge Pizzo has made his recommendations after two years looking at all the evidence, read his report.
In the next two months Judge Merryday will rubber stamp it. Pack them and ship'em, it's over!!
Sovereign Spanish Navel War Ship, Did you understand that part, signumops ?
Ossy

Mariner... Your assessment of the Sussex is way off base. The Brits control the project, not Odyssey. Maybe if the wimps in England got off their butts and claimed the 12 mile limit off Gibraltar as the UN says they are entitled, then Odyssey could continue the project. They might even have to send out a naval vessel to protect Odyssey's ship, because Spain would surely arrest the ship otherwise.

"My personal view is that Odyssey have not salvaged the Sussex because there is doubt about how valuable it is."

That surprises me, because you should know that the Admiral's ship always carried money for the fleet. It's also known that "a very considerable summe of money" was put on the Sussex in Gibraltar, by an agent of the Levant Company.

Well, Jeff, a couple of questions.

On the Sussex, hasn't Odyssey signed an agreement with the British Government allowing them to salvage the wreck that they say is the Sussex? If so, what is the next step? Is it not up to the salvage company to go to an appropriate court and ask it to arrest the wreck and to award them salvor rights? After all, there is still the issue of establishing the identity of the wreck and offering the opportunity for other potential claimants to come forward? I think Odyssey know the procedure. Of course, in this case, I think it is only a Spanish court that would have jurisdiction. It is so long ago that I forget whether Odyssey even started the process. No doubt you will remind me if they did. And I don't think that Spain would arrest somebody who had authorization from a Spanish court, and permission from the wreck's owner, to recover a foreign Sovereign vessel in its waters.

And as for knowing that all that gold is there, how can you be sure that it ever was loaded, that it is the right wreck, and that some unscrupulous recovery company hasn't already come along and removed it all? That has happened before, hasn't it?

Lastly, in the case of the tip of a land mass belonging to one country while the rest of it belongs to another, who has control over the adjacent sea, especially the bits that are within 3 miles/12 miles/24 miles of both bits of land? How far is the Sussex from the nearest point on the Spanish coast?

I guess that Brits have to join the ranks of other second rate, whimpish countries like Spain and Australia now ... move over Ossy: I'm having to join you on that particular bench !
 
Best wishes,

Mariner


 

Mariner... I posted that Q&A last Thursday on this thread. You're not paying attention.  

The opposition party in Gibraltar has been saying for months that they should declare the 12 mi. limit. Unfortunately, they're not in power. The Sussex site would be in that area about 10 mi. SE of Gibraltar. Spain is saying that Gibraltar does not even have 3 mi. of territorial water, although UNCLOS says otherwise.

http://www.gibnet.com/fish/waters.htm

Why would Odyssey go to a Spanish court to get permission to salvage a British warship in international water? They tried to work with the Spanish, and look what it got them. Nothing but grief. If you think you can do better, then be my guest.

Mariner... Your assessment of the Sussex is way off base. The Brits control the project, not Odyssey. Maybe if the wimps in England got off their butts and claimed the 12 mile limit off Gibraltar as the UN says they are entitled, then Odyssey could continue the project. They might even have to send out a naval vessel to protect Odyssey's ship, because Spain would surely arrest the ship otherwise.

"My personal view is that Odyssey have not salvaged the Sussex because there is doubt about how valuable it is."

That surprises me, because you should know that the Admiral's ship always carried money for the fleet. It's also known that "a very considerable summe of money" was put on the Sussex in Gibraltar, by an agent of the Levant Company.

The Treaty of Utrecht did not specify Territorial waters !
" Maritime space of Gibraltar is not included in article 10 of the treaty of Utrecht of 13th of July 1713 "

Jeff you are showing the out right greed of Odyssey, willing to cause and International incident for the sake of their pockets
Spain and England enjoy both mutual trade and respect for each other. The British are Spain's number one tourist and currently
British air ways and Iberia airlines are looking at becoming partners.
I also agree with Mariner about the Sussex and the amount Odyssey claim she carried, As Claudio once said, pure speculation !
PS Mariner, plenty of room on the bench.
Ossy

Jeff,

You're quite right. I can't have been paying attention. Another senior moment.

Thanks for posting that note about the territorial waters around Spain and Gibraltar. As far as I can tell from the map contained within it, however, a point 10 miles SW of Gibraltar would be in the yellow area marked as Spain's territorial waters, it being beyond the three miles that Gibraltar claims. Did you mean 10 miles SW? My vaugue memory is that the Sussex had passed Gibraltar when it went down. Did you mean 10 miles SE?

Also, I wonder what effect the extension of Spain's (and Morrocco's) waters to include its contiguous zone has on the area to the east of Gibraltar?

Mariner