Odyssey Marine Article...

Jeff,

My memory was that Odyssey had found the Sussex off the coast of Andalucia, and when I go back and check the announcements made at the time, they do say that was the case. So where do you get the information that the wreck is 10 miles SW of Gibraltar? Could you post something that clarifies the wreck's location?
 
Mariner

Mariner... I did mean SE. That's the second time I posted SW by mistake. That would put her south of the first "H" in "High Seas" on that map. Back in 2005, Odyssey use to post hydrolants showing where they would be working. These hydrolants are available on-line, but Odyssey does not post there anymore.

http://www.nga.mil/MSISiteContent/StaticFiles/MISC/warn/dm_a.html
 
The M/V Odyssey went out in Nov. to prepare the site, and the Odyssey Explorer started work in Dec. I believe it was early Jan. 2006 that they were forced to leave.

HYDROLANT   2086/2005(52). STRAIT OF GIBRALTAR.
1. SURVEY OPERATIONS 0700Z TO 1900Z DAILY 15 THRU 20 NOV
   BY M/V ODYSSEY VICINITY 36-xx.xN 005-xx.xW.
   TWO MILE BERTH REQUESTED.
2. CANCEL THIS MSG 202000Z NOV.
(I x'd-out the minutes.)

Jeff,

Thanks for the clarification.

If we assume for the moment that the wreck is in International Waters, why didn't Odyssey just go to the Federal Court in Florida at the time and apply for the arrest of the wreck, given that it had the agreement with Britain? This is a necessary step in the process, and would have deterred Spain from interfering with the recovery.

I just cannot understand why Odyssey would have ignored this huge boost to its profits and cash flow for so long, if the site does contain what it claims. Odyssey's relationship with Spain was not bad in those days immediately after the discovery, and it was only Andalucia that was kicking up a fuss.

Mariner

Mariner... Since Odyssey had an agreement with the Brits an arrest was not necessary. Besides, the Admiralty Court cannot protect a shipwreck outside of its jurisdiction. It can only rule on and protect artifacts brought into its jurisdiction. I didn't know that until recently.

Jeff,

Two things:

Firstly, I thought that part of the Admiralty process was to confirm that a supposed owner giving a salvor rights to recover a wreck was, indeed, the sole owner and had the right to enter into such an agreement. Otherwise any salvage company with an agreement with somebody who claims to own a wreck could go ahead and proceed with the recovery without authorization from a court.

Second, I thought it was your contention that the Sussex lies in International Waters, Gibraltar having failed to assert its rights to a 12 nm territorial sea. If this is the case, then an Amerian court would have jurisdiction, particularly if the British did not insist on classifying the Sussex as a Sovereign Vessel. My impression all along was that the Sussex was a British vessel lying in Spanish waters, but your recent information suggests that this is not the case.

Mariner

[" Maybe if the wimps in England got off their butts "]

" Maybe if the wimps in England got off their butts " That should work well in the UK. Now you want to alienate anyone born on the other side of the Atlantic from the former British colony that you live in. Clearly you went to the Greg Stemm School of Diplomacy, how to make friends and influence people.

Jeff get over it.

Feeling sorry for yourself, like gloating is a total waste of time.

When you are not influenced by you commitment to OMEX you post really good information, stick to it.

OMEX played a dangerous game and lost. Now lets hope they are in an new frame of mind to get out and do some good work which I am sure they are capable of. They have the data and they have some good aging equipment, plus they have some funds, so lets see them capitalise on the good things they have. Not continue to tip money into an  bottom less pit. They could have bought real State of the Art equipment had they done this properly.

Now lets see if the subject vessel "The HMS Sussex" has anything on it or even if it is the correct vessel. On that point OMEX have got some good data so if this one is not it then I am sure there is another one waiting in the wings to fit the bill.

If OMEX are to have any respect from the TH community, and even more important the investors who pay for their games. Lets see them perform, it will be about time, they are in the finding business not the law business.

On another point lets not have any more dribble about the various South American countries the silver was originally removed from. Sure I feel that they should benefit from this windfall more than anyone. But I am sure if you were to look hard enough into those countries at that time and before, there were many atrocities carried out by the various incumbents. The Romans did it, the British did it, the Spanish did it and the Americans (Iraq), Russians (Georgia) and Chinese (Tibet) are still doing it. Its just at different levels and I am sure we do not know more than 10% of what really go's on around the world every day.

Mariner... The main reason to arrest a shipwreck is to protect it from other potential salvors. There's no law that says someone has to arrest a shipwreck. It's voluntary. The U.S. Courts can protect a shipwreck within its territorial waters, but have no means to protect a wreck in international waters. A good case in point is the Titanic. Russian salvors have already salvaged thousands of artifacts from her.

Cablava... Since you're in the salvage business you should know that a win for Odyssey is a win for YOU. I think it's time you started looking past your nose. This case is not over by a long shot. It will go all the way to the Supreme Court if need be. You should also read the Gibraltar newspapers. I do every day. The opposition party has said a lot worse than I did about the current party in power. Sometimes appeasement does not work. Neville Chamberlain found that out the hard way.

Jeff,

I think that the legal protection offered by an Admiralty award is as important as physical protection.

Mariner

Mariner... Since Odyssey had an agreement with the Brits an arrest was not necessary. Besides, the Admiralty Court cannot protect a shipwreck outside of its jurisdiction. It can only rule on and protect artifacts brought into its jurisdiction. I didn't know that until recently.

Jeff why did Odyssey arrest the Victory Just in case? It's a Sovereign war ship !
Ossy

 Why wouldnt you want to arrest any potentially valuable wreck. Until it is proven soverign immune, you have to protect your find.
  Also, It still seems that there is question if the Mercedes qualifies since it had private cargo..............Also, it seems to me that there is a distiction as to if it qualifies as a wreck site or just contents of cargo that were dispersed. It seems that the answers are subjective depending upon the point of view.

             Ps....I still think that if everyone wants to fight over who owns the treasure it should go back to Peru. Leave the wreckage and cannon alone to preserve Spains heritage or whatever, but its ill gotten gains should not belong to Spain. The Spanish Stole them and behaved badly. Now they still behave badly by claiming somthing that doesnt belong to them. If it was the bell off a Spanish ship or a cannon that would be different. To me it is like returning a bag of cash back to a bank robber if they dropped it.

To me it is like returning a bag of cash back to a bank robber if they dropped it.

Well the recommendation of the magistrate covers most of the points you raise, and infers that it was Odyssey who had robbed the bank. And if the recommendations are accepted, it won't be Odyssey who chooses how the loot is returned to Spain. The Court will decide that.

Mariner

Maybe it's time for Odyssey to secretly move the coins again, maybe to the Cayman Islands this time.





Jay

Jay,

Maybe that's why they have been producing all those replica coins.  About to work the old switcheroo.

Mariner

To me it is like returning a bag of cash back to a bank robber if they dropped it.

Well the recommendation of the magistrate covers most of the points you raise, and infers that it was Odyssey who had robbed the bank. And if the recommendations are accepted, it won't be Odyssey who chooses how the loot is returned to Spain. The Court will decide that.

Mariner

Like I said....It is subjective dependind upon your point of view..... In min it was Spain that is the bank robber.

And....SWR......The people of Peru were forcefully subjected to Spanish rule. It just lasted much longer than the Nazi occupation of europe.

The Spanish Stole them and behaved badly.

The Spanish stole them?

You keep avoiding the issue that Peru was a Spanish colony for HUNDREDS of years before these coins were lost at sea. You probably are also in the dark about the Inca wars, and other atrocities happening in Peru before the Spanish conquest.

I hate to keep pointing this out to you, but you keep skirting around real history.

4themoney how can you compare what happen in 1500's to the Nazi war in Europe in the 1900's. The Romans caused more blood shed and conquered most of Europe including England and stayed longer than the Spanish in the America's, your not whining about them.
Selective memory ? What did the early colonials do to the red Indians? have you given their land
back yet??? and are you going to give back California to Mexico? when did the US abolish slavery? they say People in glass house's shouldn't throw stones !
Ossy

The Spanish Stole them and behaved badly.

The Spanish stole them?

You keep avoiding the issue that Peru was a Spanish colony for HUNDREDS of years before these coins were lost at sea. You probably are also in the dark about the Inca wars, and other atrocities happening in Peru before the Spanish conquest.

I hate to keep pointing this out to you, but you keep skirting around real history.

4themoney how can you compare what happen in 1500's to the Nazi war in Europe in the 1900's. The Romans caused more blood shed and conquered most of Europe including England and stayed longer than the Spanish in the America's, your not whining about them.
Selective memory ? What did the early colonials do to the red Indians? have you given their land
back yet??? and are you going to give back California to Mexico? when did the US abolish slavery? they say People in glass house's shouldn't throw stones !
Ossy

It is quite obvious as I have stated that opinions are subjective depending on your point of view And that yours will not change any more than mine will.
  Spain was only in the new world to secure riches in order to be a dominate power in europe. In its quest many were killed or enslaved during Spains forceable occupation.  It was no different than the nazi regime.
   English colonys were not much different. They were here looking for riches and many starved during winter because they spent more time looking for gold than ensuring their survival through winter.
   So do I think there was much of a difference between Spain's colonys and those of the rest of europe......No, not really. They were all wrong and they were all greedy, and that is the only cultural heritage that Spain can claim.
   Like I said before, if everyone wants to make this about right and wrong, the Spain should give back ALL of the heritage that it stole and still has. Just as you have your strong beliefs, I have mine.
   BTW....what difference is there in protecting the cultural heritage of spain from the 1500's and not Those of Peru? I just dont get the statement of " We conquered them so that makes it alright'.... I would only hope nobody invades Spain, takes what they like and kills most of the population with the argument "If we conquer  them its alright...."

Odyssey PR...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Odyss...on-Granted-to-bw-15493609.html?.v=1

4theMoney,

I haven't studied in any great depth the pre-conquest Incas, but I have looked at the Aztecs. When Cortes arrived in Mexico, he found Montezuma and his generals far exceeding the Nazis in the way they treated some of the other Mexican nations. Live, public human sacrifices in which the still-beating heart was removed from body after body was extremely common. Cortes estimated that on one day alone, the Aztecs sacriced 20,000 victims in this manner.

It is true that Pizarro and DeSoto committed acts in Peru that we would all find unacceptable these days, but man's inhumanity to man was not restricted to the Spanish, or to the 16th century. There is genocide and suppression going on today in parts of the world.

As my fellow Liverpudlian, John Lennon, wrote "Let's give peace a chance."

Mariner





 

God bless John Lennon, Imagine the World living in Peace, we can only dream !
Mariner, I've been a Beatles nut since the 60's, George was my favorite.
Cheers, Ossy

4theMoney,
The biggest difference between the English and Spanish colonies is that the English colonies proved to be the more successful of the two as far as governmental stability.  The English colonies nutured the colonists more to create a stabilized government that succeeded once they gained their independence.  There has not been a stable government in South America since the Incas. 

If a country is going to be able claim "treasure" that is 200-500 years old, then I do think the means in which the treasure was obtained should be taken into account.  If the natives of the area were enslaved to mine the gold and silver that should count for something.  If cultural objects of the people were seized and melted down to obtain the gold and silver, that should be taken into account.  When a country can look back far enough on a wreck to claim it, they need to realize that the history of how it was obtained is very relevant.  If a country uses the argument that they ruled the area of the "treasure's" origin, they are essentially saying "finder's keepers."  In that case, whoever finds the treasure should have rights to it. 

Being the North American Indians civilization was at a different stage/level than their South American counterparts, the experience was different.  There wasn't tons of treasure to be hauled away.  Just land to be taken.  If there were North American Indian treasures spirited away and lost at sea, I would definitely say the same thing.  I also feel that various tribes still should pursue land that was stolen from them through treaties made by our American government that was renigged upon.

I am not trying to beat up the Spanish and call them unholy, etc.  I just simply think that if they want to claim spoils of their rule, those who had the spoils stolen from them should be able to make a claim.  Personally, I think it should be finder's keepers.  It's not like it was a recent wreck.  It would be like Russia claiming they have rights to that treasure in Afghanastan that was luckily hidden away successfully.

4 the Money

Tell that to the North American Indians,  "Land is the greatest Treasure" Worth much more than the paltry sum of gold and silver removed and anyway Peru etc. have got their land back less some silver etc. and with the loss of many people. So when are the Americans going to give the Indians their land back and their oil and gold etc. Your argument does not stick.

4 the Money

Tell that to the North American Indians,  "Land is the greatest Treasure" Worth much more than the paltry sum of gold and silver removed and anyway Peru etc. have got their land back less some silver etc. and with the loss of many people. So when are the Americans going to give the Indians their land back and their oil and gold etc. Your argument does not stick.

  Sure my argument sticks. My ancestors were wrong to steal the american indians land just as Spain was wrong to enslave and loot the americas. I guess the question now is what do we do about it? I know plenty about history, and wrong is wrong. If Spain can still lay claim to somthing it looted 500yrs ago then the people of Peru should be able to claim it just the same......AND it was theirs first. I personally would find it funny to give peru all of its stolen wealth back and the American indians All of their land. Then all of us americans would be moving back to europe. Just imagine 300 million americans milling and mucking about in europe building even more McDonalds.......Funny really
   We were wrong to steal from and mistreat the Native americans and so was Spain, so yeah if we want to be retroactive and award Peru its cultural treasures then I am fine with the native americans getting their land back.

 Humans don't 'own' land, they only control it.

And the history of mankind is that of one group taking control from another. Sometimes this happened on a large scale and sometimes on a small scale.

 Right and wrong depends on the point of view of each side. This varies wildly.




 Jay

I found this , can any tell me what this means "Droits of the Crown"


 The battle
At dawn on 5 October, the Spanish frigates sighted the coast of Portugal. At 7 a.m. they sighted the four British frigates. Bustamante ordered his ships into line of battle, and within an hour the British came up in line, to windward of the Spaniards and "within pistol-shot".

Moore, the British Commodore, sent Lieutenant Ascott to the Spanish flagship Medea, to explain his orders. Bustamante naturally refused, and impatient of delays, at 10 a.m. Moore ordered a shot be fired ahead over the bows of Medea. Almost immediately a general exchange of fire broke out. Within ten minutes the Mercedes was destroyed when her magazine exploded, and only about 40 of her 240 crew were rescued. Within half an hour the Santa Clara and the Medea had surrendered, and the Fama broke away and attempted to flee, pursued by the Medusa. Moore ordered the faster Lively to pursue, and she was also captured a few hours later. The three frigates were taken to Gibraltar, and then to Gosport, England.


[edit] The results
Spain declared war on Great Britain on 14 December 1804, only to suffer a catastrophic defeat less than a year later at the battle of Trafalgar in October 1805. Napoleon, having crowned himself Emperor on 2 December, gained Spain as an ally in his war against Britain.

Under the terms of the Cruizers and Convoys Act of 1708 ships captured at sea were "Droits of the Crown" and became the property of their captors, who received the full value of the ships and cargo in prize money. However, since technically Britain and Spain were not at war at the time of the action, the Admiralty Court ruled that the three ships were "Droits of the Admiralty", and all revenues would revert to them. The four Spanish ships carried a total of 4,286,508 million Spanish dollars in silver and gold coin, as well as 150,000 gold ingots, 75 sacks of wool, 1,666 bars of tin, 571 pigs of copper, seal skins and oil, although 1.2 million in silver, half the copper and a quarter of the tin went down with the Mercedes. Still, the remaining ships and cargo were assessed at a value of £900,000 (equivalent to £60,810,000 today.[1]). After much legal argument an ex gratia payment was made which, according to one account, amounted to £250,000. If so, each of the four Captains 

hmmm,

Very interest post. Thanks for that.

Point of information: Spain was already Napoleon's ally by the time of the Battle of Trafalgar, and the fleet that Nelson defeated was a joint French Spanish fleet, under the command of a French admiral. Spain lost 22 ships.

Apart from that, the word "Droit" is the french word for "right", meaning either "as opposed to left" or as in "the right to bear arms". In law, it appears that "droit" implies ownership, rather than just possession.

I haven't looked up that act yet, but I wonder if it says anything about sunken, rather than captured, ships.

Mariner

The Act does not cover sunken ships. It was a British Act, so no doubt Spain would not consider it as applying to them. Besides Clause XIV says "And this Act to continue during this war and no longer". I think that the idea of prizes at sea is as old as the hills. This particular Act defined a very specific distribution of the booty among all vessels in sight at the time of capture.

Mariner
 

4 the Money

Tell that to the North American Indians,  "Land is the greatest Treasure" Worth much more than the paltry sum of gold and silver removed and anyway Peru etc. have got their land back less some silver etc. and with the loss of many people. So when are the Americans going to give the Indians their land back and their oil and gold etc. Your argument does not stick.

  Sure my argument sticks. My ancestors were wrong to steal the American Indians land just as Spain was wrong to enslave and loot the Americas. I guess the question now is what do we do about it? I know plenty about history, and wrong is wrong. If Spain can still lay claim to something it looted 500yrs ago then the people of Peru should be able to claim it just the same......AND it was theirs first. I personally would find it funny to give Peru all of its stolen wealth back and the American Indians All of their land. Then all of us Americans would be moving back to Europe. Just imagine 300 million Americans milling and mucking about in Europe building even more McDonald's.......Funny really
   We were wrong to steal from and mistreat the Native Americans and so was Spain, so yeah if we want to be retroactive and award Peru its cultural treasures then I am fine with the native Americans getting their land back.

Good post 4themoney, now if we could all learn from our mistakes.
Ossy

Between the time gold was discovered in California and 1870, over 100,000 "friendly" Indians were killed for sport and bounty. We all know that Spain was not the only country to commit atrocities, but that's not the point here. Spain is claiming that the coins from the Mercedes are part of her "cultural heritage." To me, that would be the same as the Germans claiming all the gold teeth and treasures the Nazis took are part of their "cultural heritage." If I were Spanish (or German) I'd be too ashamed of what my ancestors did to even want the treasures back.

Jeff,

Wasn't Spain's preference that it wanted the wreck of the Mercedes and its cargo to be left on the oceanbed undisturbed, as a war grave?

Perhaps if Spain has to take possession of the coins, as a result of Odyssey removing them all instead of just a small sample, they can use them to set up some kind of appropriate charitable trust.

Mariner

Mariner... No war, then no war grave. By the way, Odyssey has documents showing the Spanish diplomats complained to the British for attacking four of their "merchant ships." These docs were put in evidence, but it seems that Pizzo either missed them or chose to ignore this evidence.

Between the time gold was discovered in California and 1870, over 100,000 "friendly" Indians were killed for sport and bounty. We all know that Spain was not the only country to commit atrocities, but that's not the point here. Spain is claiming that the coins from the Mercedes are part of her "cultural heritage." To me, that would be the same as the Germans claiming all the gold teeth and treasures the Nazis took are part of their "cultural heritage." If I were Spanish (or German) I'd be too ashamed of what my ancestors did to even want the treasures back.

The one that is free of sins that he throws the first stone. Jeff are you and your conscience free of sins? Really I doubt it! You know very well.

I've never been arrested by the Guardia Civil if that's what you mean, and I've never tried to extort money from anyone.

to me the coins look to well preserved to have been sitting on the ocean bed for the last 200 years. as if the came streight from a 200 year old vault.

Mariner... No war, then no war grave. By the way, Odyssey has documents showing the Spanish diplomats complained to the British for attacking four of their "merchant ships." These docs were put in evidence, but it seems that Pizzo either missed them or chose to ignore this evidence.

Jeff get over it ! Odyssey has lost. they should stop spending any more share holders money.
Ossy

  For the record, I have nothing to do with Odyssey and I do not have odyssey stock or a treasure hunting entity.
  The viewpoints I have expressed are purely from myself watching this whole thing unfold.

4themoney

It still does not really stick.

I agree with most you have posted, however the native Americans are not living in their own country they are mainly repressed by the new American people, while the South American counter parts are living and owning their own land, without restriction (maybe). The difference is enormous. So is the time difference.

Jeff
Yes, I have been in salvage for just over 33 years and fortunately I have done very well out of it and can retire in comfort. Without buying lottery tickets or stock in companies like OMEX to get a chance of the big time.

You keep pointing at the wrongs done 500 years ago but are missing the point of a alleged wrong done just a little while ago. An alleged wrong which has very far reaching consequences for the rest of the active salvage world not just the treasure hunting world.
I can assure you my nose is pretty long and I can still see much farther than it 's extremity, and it seems infinity compared to yours for that matter, in fact I have extraordinary long vision. Maybe a reason why I do not need to gamble my pension on OMEX and an able chose my own adventures.

As I stated before, get over feeling sorry for yourself, it only shows in your posts, OMEX are out of this game, supreme court or not. The best thing is that they start to use what resources they have, to do what the company's printed approach stated on their web site is.

While I do not agree their equipment is the state of the art anymore, it will still work very well, and maybe they do have a great piece of software (one can only hope). Lets see them back in the water doing what it can do. They have a lot to offer but need to change their method of business, if they wanted to be in the lawfirm then they should have become lawyers it would have been a lot cheaper. The reason they took the stuff back to the US was for US protection, and Pizo was always your man, and now you complain when he makes a judgement based on all the facts put by the two parties. Stick to making unbiased posts.

Regards

I've never been arrested by the Guardia Civil if that's what you mean, and I've never tried to extort money from anyone.

Jeff, the accusers will become accused and the innocent heroes and patriots. About the extortion, we will already see!! At the end of the battle they are counted the deads, and the battle had just begun.   
What about the problem on the La Linea court?? 
 
http://www.abc.es/hemeroteca/histor...dador-de-odyssey_1641640581969.html 
 
http://www.abc.es/20090609/cultura-...ssey-pide-juez-tiempo-20090609.html

I'm amazed at the third parties who base their respects on another human being for whether their opinions of Odyssey are congruent. Having said that, let's look at the two extreme primary opinions...

1) The court ruled X years ago (or recently) regarding shipwrecks, therefore it should be abided by. Odyssey is a demon since they didn't abide by the ruling. They also totally disregarded archaeological integrity.

2) To hell with the "rules" - everyone knows that big gov't will never go after these wrecks. They are simply following the lead of the jealous PC crowd and claim their wrecks were never "abandoned" - even after centuries of no attempt to salvage. Odyssey should be able to keep their finds (or a large %).

If you are the type who follows rules, you'll always defend #1. If you're not, you'll defend #2. I won't entertain opinion #3 regarding Peru - I think for better or worse (I think worse), it was under the rule of Spain at the time.

I believe most people reading this thread fall somewhere in the gray area between #1 and #2. The debate centers around whether Odyssey erred a bit too much on #2. I think it's easy for those looking in hindsight to say what Odyssey should have done. While my heart leans much more to #2 (I would have loved the Boston Tea Party), my mind knows #1 is a reality to be dealt with and therefore it demands a higher ethical standard. Because of this, my opinion is that Odyssey should have consulted with Portugal (their waters) and Spain (on the chance that the "merchant vessel" angle didn't fly) to work out an agreement ahead of time before scooping up the goods. This has been their typical protocol in past projects. I was surprised when that didn't happen in this case. The problem with my opinion is that I don't have full knowledge of what Odyssey knew (or didn't know). They are a pubically traded company. They needed capital. At the time they may have thought this project was pushing the envelope, but still within their boundaries. I don't know. Their position as a world leader in treasure hunting demands the higher standard.

As I stated before, get over feeling sorry for yourself, it only shows in your posts....

Mike, I'm surprised at your emotional angle with Jeff. As a pattern, he has never resorted to emotional retorts. I've never seen him feeling sorry for himself or having the silly "I told you so" posts that several other trolls put here often.  My experience is that Jeff simply states the facts as he sees them (whether I agree or not). Your success in the past is very commendable. Can you share how you and your team handled gov'ts then?

Stick to making unbiased posts.

Can anyone do this? Can you? Can I?

Darren,

I think I have missed something here. Is the site in Portuguese waters? How far is it from the coast of Portugal?

Mariner

ok odyssey -- IF as the judge "ass u me ed" it was in fact the mercedes * -- the vessel as discribed at the time "blew apart" in a massive explosion -- utterly blown to bits - the vessels "cargo" of coins scattered on the open ocean floor --not contained within a vessels hull since it was in fact "blown to bits" --as such there is in effect no "wreck site" in the normal meaning of the word --just a debris feild of sorts -- since the coins were laying on the ocean floor in plain sight for the most part --little if any disturbance of the site was done during the recovery --with the vessel being "blown to bits" any people aboard would have like wize been shredded to bits as well -- now the multi million dollar question ****-- ok lets say the vessel is the "spanish naval vessel" the mercedes * which blew apart into tiny bits and its cargo --a batch of money being sent back to spain by "private persons" --ie "private property- cargo"  -- (****does the act of the vessel sinking convert --"private property" (the coins) somehow into "spanish govt property"? I think not )--- the coins were clearly listed in the manifest as "private money" and exactly who was shipping what amount --so thier ownership is known -- thus its "legal" heirs can be tracked down ---or does via the sinking the spanish govt suddenly get to claim that "private property" as thiers thus "robbing" it from the owners ? --- a vessel and its cargo are two differant things --- ask any shipping insurance agant --they "insure" them apart from one another  (ship / cargo) thus they are not "one in the same" or "joined" --but rather two differant items

as "private funds" --for finding & recovering and taking care of & cleaning them up and restoring them to its legal "owners" --the heirs of those who shipped it * odyssey deserves a rather large cut of the finds / money.

 I agree with most of what Darren says with very few exceptions.
 I argue on the side of Peru having ownership solely if one has to assume that Spain has some claim to title to ownership. I am not going to beat that dead horse anymore.
  To me this argument isnt so much about odyssey, but domain, policy and government control......not to mention greed. Everyone is splitting hairs because so much is at stake. So who is right in all of this? Maybe none of the stakeholders or maybe all of them are partially right. Either way this bodes poorly for those of us that would enjoy the dream of discovering wrecks. I am not sure that I agree with making all of them Govt domain..... Make that "I am definatly against it".
   Odyssey may have behaved somewhat poorly, but if they actually did anything wrong is more subjective to personal opinion than it is black or white in the court of law.(Note that I said black or white and not gray). I dont even really know. I do know that Odyssey probably made the only move they felt like was availiable to them and I dont disrespect them for that.
   I am most interested in this post not because of who I want to be a winner or looser, but because I am afraid of what may be lost.

4theMoney you talk about greed, on who's part? Spain will not sell the coins as I have said many times, I know most will say, what
a waste all those coins in a Museum, I'm sure Peru will get a share for theirs as well. The Kingdom of Spain does not need to sell
the coins like Odyssey, Like most Government's they can raise taxes for more money.
For the Spanish its more about the People that Perished than bits of silver, but you are 100% right about what could be lost !
this will impact Treasure hunters all over the world.
Ossy

4theMoney you talk about greed, on who's part? Spain will not sell the coins as I have said many times, I know most will say, what
a waste all those coins in a Museum, I'm sure Peru will get a share for theirs as well. The Kingdom of Spain does not need to sell
the coins like Odyssey, Like most Government's they can raise taxes for more money.
For the Spanish its more about the People that Perished than bits of silver, but you are 100% right about what could be lost !
this will impact Treasure hunters all over the world.
Ossy

And that is where Our point of view is different. How many coins does a museum need?....And how will it help someone who died 200 years ago?

4theMoney  It's Not a matter of how many coins go into a Museum It's a matter of the Kingdom of
Spain giving clear Instruction's not to disturb the site ! Read Pizzo report, clearly documented !

Odyssey chose to extract all the coins they could find and do a runner back to the States. Question,
how does the Arizona memorial help the people that died 68 years ago? If you can answer this, it may help you understand.
Ossy

By the way, I have the greatest of respect for all who Perished, Les we forget !
Sam

4theMoney  It's Not a matter of how many coins go into a Museum It's a matter of the Kingdom of
Spain giving clear Instruction's not to disturb the site ! Read Pizzo report, clearly documented !

Odyssey chose to extract all the coins they could find and do a runner back to the States. Question,
how does the Arizona memorial help the people that died 68 years ago? If you can answer this, it may help you understand.
Ossy

Ossy, in November 2005 Luis Valero and I was negotiating with the ministry of culture of Spain a proposal to recover the load and remains of the Mercedes. The ministry was favorable and a high official said that Spain was interested to recover it to be a ship of the Spanish Navy and to be able to fill the museums. All this comes in the indictment documents edited by the Guardia Civil (Spanish police) against several people, among them Luis Valero and I. 
There are many more incongruities than for the time being it doesn't interest me to disclose.

The ships at Honolulu were not abandoned. 

Disturbing the remains of the dead is a traditional skill of archaeology and is commonly practiced by archaeologists without obtaining the permission of the dead party's descendents.  (that would be because the bodies have been abandoned)

Courts in the U.S. are supposedly secular, therefore, they can not claim a moral perspective on what to do with dead tissue... especially so since there are thousands of children murdered in the U.S. each year under the auspices of "Law".  So we need hear nothing from the American courts regarding "war graves", "respect for the dead", and so forth.  The hypocrisy is crushing.

It might be a very good idea to take all the Mercedes cash and split it amongst the salvors and the descendents of whomever happened to be aboard the vessel when it sank.  These people did NOT abandon the ship, or its cargo.  Yes, you're right, the Spanish government would not go to all that trouble, and surely, when it was discovered that the people on the Mercedes were not Spaniards, whatever returns that might be generated would be attached by Spain, no matter what.  But, its a great notion and in total keeping with the traditional western values of ownership and inheritance.  And then too, to be fair to the "dead" we must be sure that the ship can be fully identified and that absolutely every person on the ship at the time of the sinking can be identified.  What a wildly optimistic notion!  I feel so much better for having thought it!  After all, these folks paid the ultimate price for transporting the money!  Bilge water.  Won't ever happen.

Let us not forget the case of the K-129, a Russian war grave (not really... no war at the time) which the American government, quite cleverly attempted to salvage, without permission of the Russian government, and certainly with no intention of returning any booty they obtained to the Russians, which included two nuclear torpedos.  I don't recall the courts of the United States interceding on the behalf of the Russians in that case.  Supposedly the four Russian sailors who were located within the salvage were given a burial at sea.  This is a great example of government self-interest completely turning tradition on its head.  Keep in mind that there was no money involved in this instance.

Now, at last, for the money...  anybody who believes that a half billion dollars lying unsettled within the purview of the American court system will not attract flies, has lost touch with reality.  They will swarm upon it, and over time, will carry it away, piece by piece.

Gold and silver will not raise the dead.

Pearl Harbor Raid, 7 December 1941 --
Salvage Work on USS Arizona, 1942-43

There was never much expectation that the shattered wreck of the Arizona could be raised and returned to service. Though consideration was given to cutting loose the the ship's relatively intact after portion and refloating it, divers' examinations of the wreck indicated that the work involved would not be worthwhile.

During 1942, most of the battleship's guns were removed and many of these were put back into service. Her two after turrets, and their 14"/50 guns, were turned over to the Army for use in coastal defense emplacements on Oahu. One of these two fortifications was completed far enough to fire test shots at the end of World War II, but neither achieved combat-ready status. Both were discarded following the war. Also removed were Arizona's intact tripod mainmast and partially collapsed foremast, armored conning tower, bridge and most of the rest of her superstructure. The ship's hull was left where it sank, a tomb for many of whose who lost their lives with her, and ultimately a memorial to her casualties and to all those killed in the Pearl Harbor raid.

It's common knowledge that the Spanish salvaged any wreck that they could. Did they care that they were disturbing a grave site? I find it ironic that the Spanish are now using the grave site argument against Odyssey.

any the spanish did it when the bodies were freshly dead from the wreckage  -- the gold and silver came before the "honored" dead then (and now as well) since dead in the ocean is dead in the ocean weither it 50 feet offshore or 500 miles out to sea.

 Just look at what happened to the USS Monitor. NOAA raised the turret and disturbed human remains disregarding and disrespecting any potential decendents so they could use it as a showpiece. It seems its alright for the Archies and Gov't to do as they please.
  Ossy, It is still unclear to me from all these posts if the Wrecksite(Which probably is the Mercedes but hasent been proven), qualifies as soveign immune. That being said,there is also a difference in my mind between disturbing a site where people died and disturbing remains....the two being very different in my opinion.

4theMoney, Two years of work going through the evidence by a US Judge !
http://www.abc.es/gestordocumental/...s/Cultura/ody_report_and_recomm.pdf
Ossy

There is also a difference in my mind between disturbing a site where people died and disturbing remains....the two being very different in my opinion.

4theMoney,

For what it is worth, I agree with you. I think it is possible to salvage a wreck that might contain human remains. It is a matter of applying due care, and treating them with due respect if they are found. My point earlier was that it was not Spain who caused the coins to be brought up, thus giving them the dilemma as to what to do with them, and I am not sure that there has to be an official state of war for a site to be treated as a war grave. Being attacked and sunk/blown up by another nation's war ships would seem to fit the bill.

Mariner

ps: I am still interested to know if the site where the coins were found is in Portuguese waters, as Darren said in an earlier post. Does anybody know the location?

According to Carl Claussen, the day after the 1715 fleet wrecked, the survivors looted the dead bodies that washed ashore and started marching north with the gold they got out of the dead pockets!

no royal decree in writing --but rather the actions that occured speak very clearly ( the spanish that had ship wrecked were salvaging the 1715 fleet from the get go --- and some of the guys from the fleet looted money from the bodies of the dead and from the wrecks and took off for st augustine with the cash *** the survivors sent a launch ahead to st augustine to warn them of these looters  that were headed there --the looters clearly hoped to "hop" on a ship and get away before word got there of what had occured --- upon arrival they were grabbed up and killed --- so the spanish own records show "grab the bucks & screw the dead"  was practiced by the spanish -- who is skippy ? -- my name is Ivan *

From the Admiralty arrest:

The Defendant Shipwrecked Vessel is lying at a depth of approximately 1100
meters, beyond the territorial waters or contiguous zone of any sovereign nation
approximately 100 miles west of the Straits of Gibraltar.

no royal decree in writing --but rather the actions that occured speak very clearly ( the spanish that had ship wrecked were salvaging the 1715 fleet from the get go --- and some of the guys from the fleet looted money from the bodies of the dead and from the wrecks and took off for st augustine with the cash *** the survivors sent a launch ahead to st augustine to warn them of these looters  that were headed there --the looters clearly hoped to "hop" on a ship and get away before word got there of what had occured --- upon arrival they were grabbed up and killed --- so the spanish own records show "grab the bucks & screw the dead"  was practiced by the spanish -- who is skippy ? -- my name is Ivan *

So what happen to the looters, Killed you say So what's the message?
grab the bucks & screw the dead and you get killed for stealing from the crown and your point?
I thought SWR was talking to me ( Skippy nick name for Aussies )
Thank you for the post Ivan
Sam

From the Admiralty arrest:

The Defendant Shipwrecked Vessel is lying at a depth of approximately 1100
meters, beyond the territorial waters or contiguous zone of any sovereign nation
approximately 100 miles west of the Straits of Gibraltar.

Jeff, 100 or 180 miles ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Swan_Project

Odyssey Marine says .....http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2007/oct/20/mainsection.ianjack

http://blogs.ngm.com/

law.vanderbilt.edu/publications/journal-of-transnational-law/download.aspx?id=3955 -

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/print/140632.htm

Here the explanation:
http://theblueplanetcorporation.wor...lla-con-odyssey-marine-esploration/

Good morning, isn't most history effectively 'make believe' of what actually happened until quite recently? Even there  hmmmm???

Don Jose de La Mancha

Jeff,

Thanks for the info about the location.

Mariner

Mariner... I believe she's located about 25nm to 35nm south of Cape Santa Maria. That would be approximately 100 miles (160km) WxNW of the Straits of Gibraltar.

St. Pete Times Article...

"Gordon also told his audience that recently acquired technology now lets Odyssey "look" several meters beneath the ocean floor. The firm already is finding shipwrecks buried beneath the ocean floor in places the company has already looked and, previously, saw nothing."

http://blogs.tampabay.com/venture/2...loration-president-mark-gordon.html

Good morning, isn't most history effectively 'make believe' of what actually happened until quite recently? Even there  hmmmm???

Don Jose de La Mancha

There is typically:

(1) What one side says happened.
(2) What the other side says happened.
(3) What others want to believe happened.
(4) What really happened.


Jay

Mariner... I believe she's located about 25nm to 35nm south of Cape Santa Maria. That would be approximately 100 miles (160km) WxNW of the Straits of Gibraltar.

Hey Jeff, don't be ridiculous!!!  
The image numbers 1 corresponds of two views of the Santa María cape. Num. 55, from 2.3 miles from NE. Num. 56 1.2 miles from NW.  
Number 2 corresponds the moment of the Mercedes' explosion and the mounts drawn behind they demonstrate that they are at the same distance of the image num.1: 2/4 miles from the cape. Also from 25 or 35 miles it is impossible to see these mounts.  

Mariner... I believe she's located about 25nm to 35nm south of Cape Santa Maria. That would be approximately 100 miles (160km) WxNW of the Straits of Gibraltar.

Hey Jeff, don't be ridiculous!!!  
The image numbers 1 corresponds of two views of the Santa María cape. Num. 55, from 2.3 miles from NE. Num. 56 1.2 miles from NW.  
Number 2 corresponds the moment of the Mercedes' explosion and the mounts drawn behind they demonstrate that they are at the same distance of the image num.1: 2/4 miles from the cape. Also from 25 or 35 miles it is impossible to see these mounts.  

Hola Claudio, Odyssey have used your research and findings in their case, stating you found the Mercedes 10miles from
the Portuguese coast and Jeff is saying 25nm out? I suspect there is more to this! Claudio do you know if Spain has actually
sent a vessel to check the site ( scan the bottom and locate the Cannons ) thus verifying the actual area !
Ossy

Vox,

Very interesting. So why, if you are correct, didn't Odyssey approach a Portuguese court, rather than an American court?

Mariner

Vox,

Very interesting. So why, if you are correct, didn't Odyssey approach a Portuguese court, rather than an American court?

Mariner

Mariner, you investigates, looks for, compares and later on meditates your own conclusions. The truth is visible, but sometimes walks disguised.

Darren

Its not an attack, its a verbal observation based on comments made recently,  read the recent posts.

Regarding dealing with governments, They are all different some require little, some require a lot of persuasion, some are totaly corrupt. Others dead straight so you deal with each one as you see fit, however you never try to stiff any of them or you end up in trouble, sometimes in prison. Weak stories as to why you did wrong won't wash, you will lose, as many have in the past.

Remember what I told you about 5 tons of gold on your living room floor. The bigger the prize the worse you will come off. Even if you believe you are right, no one in their right mind takes on a sovereign government, you are always on a hiding to nothing, their funds are not wanting as your will be, OMEX legal fees must be a treasure worth having in itself by now.

Always negotiate and get your position fixed first. OMEX did it with the Sussex but failed to do it with the Black Swan. If it was not Spain it would have been another government. Just look at the rules in Florida.

Now maybe they can get on with treasure hunting and not law suits, I am sure they have the ability, they now seem to have a piece of state of the art equipment with the ground penetrating sonar-sub bottom profiler they are using. Well it's not new, but maybe new to them.

The whole farce is ridiculous.

Another article on this very  issue:

Article in Diario de Sevilla

SPANISH STAND ON ODYSSEY VINDICATED, SAYS JOSE PONS
 
Jose Pons (right) with Chief Minister Peter Caruana last year. Pic: Johnny Bugeja



Former Spanish Director General for Europe and Madrid negotiator at the Tripartite Forum Jose Pons, has declared that Spain’s stand on the Odyssey treasure hunt affair has been vindicated by the ruling from the US Judge investigating the case.

Writing in the Diario de Sevilla at the weekend, Sr Pons says that the US tribunal has finally recognised that the Odyssey treasure had come from the Spanish sovereign vessel Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes.

“The tribunal has accepted that the ship belongs to a sovereign state, is subject to immunity, and that the company will have to return the treasure to its rightful owner, Spain,” he writes.

Under the heading “The truth about Odyssey,” Sr Pons has described the ruling as a great success for those who have defended the case on behalf of Spanish interests and welcomes that “truth has prevailed over the treasure hunters.”

Sr Pons says that the judge’s ruling in recognising the identity of the frigate Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes, that was sunk in 1804 in the Atlantic, in international waters near Cape Saint Vincent, had completely brought crashing down theories that purported to place the treasure site in the Mediterranean, off the coast of Estepona, in Spanish waters, near where the English vessel Sussex is reportedly located.

The Spanish diplomat who is currently in Vienna, takes issue with statements made by journalists Pipe Sarmiento and Santiago Mata, who argued that the company had tricked Spain “and that it had taken the treasure from right in front of our noses.

“Will they now have the courage to recognise that they made a mistake,” asks Sr Pons, who includes the newspaper El Faro in the list of those who had “vilified and insulted, and insinuated false connivance between Spanish Foreign Ministry officials and Odyssey.”

“Will they now apologise for having written totally unfounded nonsense and for making claims that the Spanish Foreign Ministry was lying or hiding information,” asks Sr Pons.

“The fact is we knew what was going on thanks to exhaustive monitoring by the Spanish navy, that the Odyssey Explorer and the Ocean Alert had spent enough time at the site of Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes, to rescue the treasure.”

Sr Pons says that much was written about alleged Spanish incompetence in defending its marine archaeological heritage, and that experts suddenly appeared attacking Spain’s alleged inaction.

Sr Pons says that while this was happening, the Spanish administration was working diligently to defend the cause, “knowing that we had not done anything wrong and that justice was on our side.”

“It is very clear,” he says “that since Odyssey was unable to rescue the Sussex because it did not meet the conditions by the Junta de Andalucia and was unable elude to Spanish law enforcers, it moved to the Atlantic to rescue the treasure from the Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes, whose location it already knew.”

“As it needed to increase the value of its shares it was incapable of keeping the secret. It had to say it publicly, that was their great mistake.”

Sr Pons adds that two years after the event and having suffered “the constant harassment from certain sectors of the media, I am satisfied that we must have done something right so that the judge has ruled in favour of Spain.”

And he concludes: “We should now demand from the British Government their responsibility in this. Without the storage facilities and protection in a Gibraltar military zone and without the licences and the active or passive complicity of the Gibraltarian local authorities, Odyssey would never have been able to appropriate itself of the treasure and to subsequently transport it to the US.”



 Pirate Diver
< BACK
     

So now I am more confused than ever. Sr. Pons says that the Mercedes site is in International waters near Cape St. Vincent. Is this true, or is he giving out some disinformation in order to protect the site from (other) looters, or does he just think that Cape St. Vincent would be better known to the general public than Cape Santa Maria? The drawing posted by Vox shows the Mercedes exploding in clear view of, and close to, land, but I do not know whether the author of it had good information.

Mariner

Send them back,....wao it's too expenses

So now I am more confused than ever. Sr. Pons says that the Mercedes site is in International waters near Cape St. Vincent. Is this true, or is he giving out some disinformation in order to protect the site from (other) looters, or does he just think that Cape St. Vincent would be better known to the general public than Cape Santa Maria? The drawing posted by Vox shows the Mercedes exploding in clear view of, and close to, land, but I do not know whether the author of it had good information.

Mariner

Mariner... You can see by the chart that the 1000 meter contour line is more than 24nm south of Cape St. Mary.

I'm beginning to wonder if Judge Pizzo even read the Carlisle Report (Exhibit E). If he did, it's hard to believe that he came to the conclusion that the Mercedes was not on a commercial voyage.

http://www.treasurelore.com/charts/Carlisle_Report_Exhibit_E.pdf

Jeff, I concur. After reading this document and reading the 'footnotes' carefully as well,one has to wonder about this last ruling. To be sure the attorneys are singing all the way to the bank as the appeal moves forward. This report to the court reads like a thesis....worth a full read by EVERYONE....

 Wow.... My understanding, and please correct me if I am wrong...is that any amount of commercial cargo disallows soverign immune status..
  Either way, how would spain lay claim to commercial cargo?

4themoney Spain is acting irrational and will lay claim to anything thats not theirs. When Odyssey filed an admiralty arrest on the Italian liner Aconda, Spain claimed that it belonged to them. They later dropped that claim.

[/quote]
Mariner... You can see by the chart that the 1000 meter contour line is more than 24nm south of Cape St. Mary.
[/quote]
Thanks Jeff. Are the contours in metres or in fathoms? From your comment I assume they are the former.

Mariner

[Some numbers about the treasure of the "Mercedes" ??]

Some numbers about the treasure of the "Mercedes" ?? 

The value of a currency of 8 reales is € 100. So, 600,000 currencies give us € 60 millions or $78 millions, which are very far from those declared 500 million dollars. Why? Jeff surely knows it!! 
 
http://www.filatelialopez.com/catal...;keywords=8+reales&x=6&y=13

[Some numbers about the treasure of the "Mercedes" ??]

Some numbers about the treasure of the "Mercedes" ?? 

The value of a currency of 8 reales is € 100. So, 600,000 currencies give us € 60 millions or $78 millions, which are very far from those declared 500 million dollars. Why? Jeff surely knows it!! 
 
http://www.filatelialopez.com/catal...;keywords=8+reales&x=6&y=13

Jeff doesn't know, don't answer!!

Mariner... I believe she's located about 25nm to 35nm south of Cape Santa Maria. That would be approximately 100 miles (160km) WxNW of the Straits of Gibraltar.

Jeff, I think is 12 miles !!

shipwreck coins have two "values" -- #1 the raw metal content and /or  general collector basic coin value depending upon condition  and #2 the fact that is a "historical shipwreck coin" which can make its value jump many many times over its #1 value --a $100 dollar #1 coin can become a $1000 #2 coin in the blink of a eye. -- the value was based on the 1000 dollar mark --of course the coin may or mat not actually sell for $1000 later on but thats its "full priced" possible sell price --or full "sticker" price if it was a new car . --- welcome to the bussiness world.

Jeff doesn't know, don't answer!!

You crack me up Claudio...

Lubos and I hope to have you doing more important things with your time soon.

Jason

shipwreck coins have two "values" -- #1 the raw metal content and /or  general collector basic coin value depending upon condition  and #2 the fact that is a "historical shipwreck coin" which can make its value jump many many times over its #1 value --a $100 dollar #1 coin can become a $1000 #2 coin in the blink of a eye. -- the value was based on the 1000 dollar mark --of course the coin may or mat not actually sell for $1000 later on but thats its "full priced" possible sell price --or full "sticker" price if it was a new car . --- welcome to the bussiness world.

If, but Odyssey has declared in repeated occasions that they don't know what ship has found. They cannot baptize this way the recovery.

a shipwreck coin -- off of any shipwreck --is generally worth more than a plain coin. --be it a famous wreck or not --- the coin coming off what is clearly a vast treasure ship (no matter what its "name" is) is thus more "collectible" than one off a ho hum wreck were only a few coins were found . --

 they could legally say that their "possibly" coins from the mercedes -- but then in court say its not been proven 100% that its is in fact the mercedes ( because theres a big differance between could be and is. ) --- (I "could be" 12 foot tall --of course I'm not--but I "could be"--- ah the lawyers "words" -- possibly, could be, maybe, might have been , could have been , like , similar ) coulda , woulda, shuolda .

I'm not so sure it's gouging, just marketing. If you hold ALL of the sellable coins, and only sell them for $2,000 a piece...then sure, their market value is $2,000. Will they ever realize their $600 million that way? Absolutely, by "paying" investors in coins at thier "market value". Lots of quotations in there to get the point across, but it's actually quite a brilliant marketing strategy, and not entirely new...if you get my drift. I wouldn't care if I ever sold a coin in a gift shop, the value is solely in their over-inflated valuation. At least that's how I see it, simple really.

And who cares if you keep the coins or not...you just got world-wide press for 2 years. Add to that...everybody now knows your name and knows for sure you can find big treasure. I plan to do things quite a bit differently, but I can't knock their model for anything other than a slight lack of ethics on this particular wreck.

Jason

As simply stated as you put it, yes. But in a market where you control 100% of the product...it's not called over-inflating, it's called pricing. Do you think Mel Fisher's model is much different? He's been doing it for decades...if it was illegal, wouldn't his family be in a bit of trouble?

Point taken, and believe me I wasn't trying to compare the Fisher family to Stemm. However, Atocha silver coins are worth triple what any regular shipwreck coin is worth, solely through marketing and pricing control, none of which is illegal.

After a one year investigation, the SEC dropped all charges against Seahawk and Morris and Stemm.

After a one year investigation, the SEC dropped all charges against Seahawk and Morris and Stemm.

That's not what happened. There was a trial, and the jury found them not guilty.

After a one year investigation, the SEC dropped all charges against Seahawk and Morris and Stemm.

That's not what happened. There was a trial, and the jury found them not guilty.

sources...please?

I'm surprised you didn't know that, since you act like you're an authority on Odyssey. Sorry, but you'll have to do your own homework. Try Google.

bottom line--- found NOT liable / guilty -- -- they are one in the same in this case -- if they were found liable they would have been found "guilty" as well. get it ?  liable is "guilty" --- not liable is "not guilty" -- fairly simple concept to mentally grasp.

according to the way the american justice system is set up --once ferman said "I plead" the fifth on tampering with the evidence -- OJ was going to walk --- the only "correct" answer a cop can give to that question is "no" -- to say otherwise is to raise the doubt that police did tamper with the evidence * and if some evidence was tampered with while in police custody , who is to say all of it wasn't ? --either the police's chain of evidence and evidence room is 100% safe or its worthless. --thus the "reasonible" doubt card was slid in -- the jury based upon this by law had "no" choice but to free OJ due to the idot fermans actions. ( even if he did it (which I think he did)--the cops "tainted" the evidence needed to convict him with.--so he walked)--- it called having a good "mouth peice".

There is a difference between civil and criminal court requirements for a judgement, of course. In a criminal case, the evidence has to prove the charge beyond a reasonable doubt. In a civil case, it is a matter of the balance of evidence. Also there are different rules about the admissability of evidence. That's why the magistrate did not need it to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the coins came from the Mercedes, and why OJ lost his civil case, but managed to walk free from the criminal case.

Mariner

yep in civil cases it tends to be its which is more likely A or B ? ---but in crimanial case "more" proof is needed --to beyond a "reasonible" doubt . --- as you say thats why OJ lost the civil case . --they think its more likely than not that he did it -- but the illegal tampering of the evidence by the cops on the criminial case ---let him walk on a "techicality"

yep in civil cases it tends to be its which is more likely A or B ? ---but in crimanial case "more" proof is needed --to beyond a "reasonible" doubt . --- as you say thats why OJ lost the civil case . --they think its more likely than not that he did it -- but the illegal tampering of the evidence by the cops on the criminial case ---let him walk on a "techicality"

 Very nicely put.

British Archaeology Article...

http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba106/feat1.shtml

" Jose Maria De Alvear is a descendant of Diego De Alvear, the second in command of the Spanish Treasure ship, He is among more than A HUNDRED descendants of the crew of the Mercedes who are supporting the Spanish Governments legal bid to have the treasure returned to Spain !
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4526643,00.html
Ossy

The information put forth in this article Ossy is not very exact and is misleading. It turns out that in fact don Diego de Alvear did loose his wife Maria Josefa Balbastro and seven of their eight children aboard the Mercedes, Carlos Maria being saved by things of destiny as his mother sent him at the last minute to travel with his father aboard the Medea as he was too much of a nuisance. He later returned to Argentina to join San Martin in the revolutionary effort obviously against his fathers will. His father don Diego, later married a 19 year old British girl and had another eight children, settling in Spain. The rightful heirs to the Mercedes coins are the Argentinean descendants, the descendants of Carlos Maria de Alvear (Balbastro) who lost his mother and seven brothers and sisters,  not the Spanish branch who were only a sparkle in don Diego’s eye when the Mercedes blew up. Several Argentinean descendants of this gentleman are in fact claiming the coins not in one but in two separate groups in the Tampa courts, opposite the Spanish claim. The person in the article you referenced is of the Spanish branch that has no moral right to claim anything in my modest opinion, more so if you think that the indemnity the British paid don Diego (50% of what he lost) was “spent” by this branch not the rightful heirs, the Argentineans. The reporter didn’t do his homework which sadly enough is all too common. 

Panfilo, I disagree amigo ! any children of Diego De Alvear have as much right as his first children, He was the Father !
don't let your hatred of Spain cloud your thinking. Your anger comes through when you write.
You have a lot of information and know your history, love to hear more.
Ossy

Your anger comes through when you write.

Hmmm...I didn't see any anger in the writing. Panfilo has always seemed to be more factual in his posts than emotional.