Odyssey Marine Article...

OMG! No pics please! I feel old enough w/o having to SEE how old!

night boys 

Lynn

Sheesh  Archi-- here am I  giving La Lyn that smooch, she IS cute no?



Don Jose de La Mancha

["SideImagingSoft.com - Humminbird Side Imaging Forums"]

Ok, go get a room guys!

Lets get back to arguing about Odyssey!

K Rgecy, but I am a bit short right now, loan me your credit card.

 Incidentally, I do hope that you have something new to post, instead of simply rehashing the same  data over and over??

Don Jose de La Mancha

[Its actually good to see some humor come into this post!]

No, nothing new to post!  I've been working pretty hard and only get to read the post here lately.

Its actually good to see some humor come into this post!    

Rgecy, you just earned *****  my friend. he he he  I too, would love to see something new.


Don Jose de La Mancha

No problem Don Jose. I have trouble keeping the barnacles off.

HI Scuba swabbie: Try fresh water diving also.    Seriously my friend, you appear to be just what is needed in a questionable, safe  dive, a good tough, rugged, buddy.  And I don't mean for a shark to eat first  hehehe.

If'n Lyn vouches for you ---***** let's dive.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Let's all dive, name the place (within reason) ! My gills are drying out, been a long time between "wet".

Diverlynn

K lyn luv:  which wiil it be?

A)  Zimmnerman's gold at 40'

B)   WW-2  German sub at 80 ft'?

C)   Cromwell the pirate 's ship from 30 ft, to in the sandy beach.

All in the Sea of Cortez.

Just think, a full, romantic tropical moon, plunking guitars, tenors singing love songs, warm clear diving water,with sexy Scuba diver and rgecy vying to dive wth you.

 I am tooked and my Tiger has the typical Latin female temperment  with extreme jealousy, sheesh.  I prefer to not to  be a soprano just yet. sniff.  jelaousy?hey I  love that song hehe. 

Regarding Odessy, they should  shift operations to here, lot's of gold.and no Spain.

Don Jose de la Mancha

p.s. Tiger hugging a tree for energy.  Old Indian custom, works.  Actually what dos that stinkin old tree have that I haven't?

Actually what dos that stinkin old tree have that I haven't?

Hard wood?

W A T C H  I T  guy in back,   cute.  he he he he     Lyn might hear you, sides I don need no stinkin "V"----..
And how is my friend tonight?

Don Jose de La Mancha

["SideImagingSoft.com - Humminbird Side Imaging Forums"]

Actually what dos that stinkin old tree have that I haven't?

Hard wood?

OMG! That was too damn funny!

ET TU Rgecy?  sniff         It was a clasic  ***** come back  he he hehe

Don Jose de La Manca

[husbands]

Just let me be gone one day and see what happens here!!! I have not had so much attention since I was a teen (and before I ate my last husbands)!

Looks like my 'lil old social life might come back to life if I hang around this place for a while. 'bout time.

Too bad all I hear is all bark and no bite!!??

Anybody know anything 'bout trunks? Bought this yesterday at a yard sell for $20 Still haven't found out what it is worth.
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,203916.0.html

DL

["SideImagingSoft.com - Humminbird Side Imaging Forums"]

You did make a great buy on the trunk.  I used to be an antique dealer in my former life!  Hard to say from just pictures, but could easily be worth $1000 or more.

Robert

Hmm Rgecy, $ 1,000.    hmm  wheels spinning,  not quite an odyessy, stillll     what cha doing next week  Lyn ?

Don Jose de La Mancha 

 

Hmm  not qute sure if you are sticking your tongue out at me or suggesting partying ?  heheheh   

 Gentlemen,  advice please .I am just a lamb in wolf's clothing, just a very secluded Saint that isn't very worldly.

Hmmm, if I renounce celibacy  but keep my other vows ---------  Where is the aspirin bottle?   Now I can sympathize with pore Adam.

Still $1000 is $ 1000, hmmmm let's see, how many shares in Odessy will that buy?

 (See rgecy, I "am" talking about Odessy, no?)

Don Jose de La Mancha 

That would be 355 shares as of Fridays market closing of $2.81 a share.

and just to keep it fair and balanced...

MEXP        0.04   +0.01 33.33%
OMEX        2.81   -0.05 -1.75%
DPBE         0.00   0.00 0.00%
SFRX         0.02   -0.00 -10.00%
SVXA         0.10   0.00 0.00%

Discovery Channel PR...

http://tinyurl.com/5ccard

http://tinyurl.com/575tu3

I know this doesn't go here but...it's Christmas right?

Anybody know anything 'bout trunks? Bought this yesterday at a yard sell for $20 Still haven't found out what it is worth.
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,203916.0.html

Well, here's how my trunk came out

DL

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/TREAS...QUEST-Captures-prnews-13811180.html

About Odyssey

Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (NasdaqCM: OMEX) is engaged in the exploration of deep-ocean shipwrecks and uses innovative methods and state-of-the-art technology to conduct extensive search and archaeological recovery operations around the world.

and,.......

(need more information here about odyssey)

Diverlynn. nice trunk what's the history behind it !
Ossy

Ossy,
Don't know, wish I did. I have a renter moving to Panama and she had it in a yard sale last week. All I know is it came from up north.

DL

Back to the topic, Odyssey court case ! Jeff do you have any news on the Sovereign Immunity ruling !
Ossy

Goold has until Jan 26th to reply to Odyssey's last motion, so we won't hear anything until Feb.

diverlynn

Very nice trunk. Looks like real treasure chest!!

Architecad

http://www.europasur.es/article/oci...ias/mapa/tesoros/tarifa/huelva.html
I've translated the following excerpt.
The association Velazquez for Seville yesterday sought to exert more control in the transmission of the information obtained from the Archiveo de Indias,
located in the Hispalense capital ( Seville ), with the aim of protecting Spanish subaquatic patrimony.
The spoke person for this group, Jose Guillermo Caballero, suggested that, with the current legislation, " it is not a crime to sell to third parties " the data
obtained in the Archiveo de Indias, all this without " any type of control " on the use of that information.
According to Caballero the illicit use of that information constitutes a crime against Spanish patrimony. Whoever accesses the Archiveo de Indias must assume a commitment to
not transmit the information obtained to companies with a history of theft of the patrimony.
This has already been denounced by academics of the Real Academy of History, and Velazquez for Seville supports this approach.

Caballero further stated that " it is not the same to sell to someone from Mexico a number of hours of investigation to find out his genealogy as to investigate the location and
the details of the cargo of a ship wreck" Caballero assures that " he personally knows that information from the Archiveo de Indias has been used by Odyssey to sack
the frigate Our Lady of the Mercedes"
Caballero stated that " It should be born in mind that in the Gulf of Cadiz alone there is at least 720 documented ship wrecks between the years 1500 and 1820 "
170 ship wrecks loaded with treasure could be found between Tarifa and Huelva. The value of which could reach 24,000 million euros " For example, the San Antonio sunk
in the Guadalquivir river in 1561 ...."
Ossy

HI OSSY:  An excellent work in interpretation. You kept everything in proper context and didn't interpret literally as many so-called experts do.  I liked it.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Thanks for the information, Ossy.

I am not generally a great supporter of the way Oddysey has gone about its business in recent years, but I think it would be untenable, perhaps even immoral, for Spain to try to differentiate and prejudge the intentions of researchers in its archives, and to restrict some researchers based on a view of the intentions..

Of course, at the moment Spain does not do so. Sr. Caballero is merely expressing an aspiration by his Association that the law might be changed, and of course his statement about Odyssey sacking the Mercedes is emotive and based on a number of assumptions, which might not be true. So far, Oddyssey have not been found guilty of breaking any laws in regard to the Black Swan.

Mariner

Discovery News Video...

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/news.html?dcitc=w99-502-ah-1013

The video is on the right side of the screen.

Great PR Jeff, It shows they care about there image.
The reporter asked " Why aren't we all out there getting treasure, It's just siting on the ocean floor just waiting for some to find It !
Somebody forgot to mention, their are LAWS to protect underwater patrimony, she suggest a free for all
Greg  Quote " It's Mucking about "
Where not treasure hunters Archeologists look for treasure 
Ossy

Spanish Press...

http://tinyurl.com/8bl67b

Odyssey are doing a lot of PR work lately.
Their's no argument they have the best technology in the world for finding and recovering ship wrecks !
Aladar Nesser said " We would like to keep working with Spain "
It may have been all different, if they didn't whisk all the coins away in the manner the did !!!
not a good show of faith !
Gilbratar is a touche subject for us Spaniards, it was only rubbing salt in the wound.
Spaniards are a Proud and passionate people, our History goes back a long way .
I personally hope Odyssey do work with Spain  ! but they need to be more transparent !
No games like , Black swan rubbish !!!
Feliz Navidad
Ossy

Ossy, that was the most open minded post I've seen you write so far. Good for you. I actually agree with you that Odyssey shouldn't have whisked the coins away. In fact, in earlier projects they worked with affected parties long before recovery to prevent unnecessary legal entanglements. I'm curious as to why they didn't do this with Spain. Perhaps they underestimated Spain's interest, but that's hard to believe.

As far as the "Black Swan rubbish," it's not  a point of deception. It's typical to name a project a different name than the actual vessel you're going after. Odyssey has done this in all their projects to help provide some level of security for the project. They never intended for anyone to believe it was actually the Black Swan. It's just a project name.

No doubt Odyssey has learned some powerful lessons. I do hope this snafu hasn't done extensive damage to the treasure salvage business. I suspect it has. Time is of the essence for the treasure salvage industry. I can only hope better collaboration will happen between gov'ts, archies and salvagers.

Merry Christmas,
Darren

Discovery Video...

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/news.html?dcitc=w99-502-ah-1013

Great story. Thanks Jeff.

Jeff,

Very interesting video. I am looking forward to the TV series, despite my reservations about Odyssey's recent approach. I had not realized that Ernie Tapames had joined Odyssey after leaving ADC/Pauline Zelitzki.

Mariner

Interesting Jeff, I also look forward to the Discovery channel programme.
Jeff what's the chance of showing some HD video on the Black Swan ?
by the story, they take Video on all recoveries !
Ossy

Garneo rubioss, Red Gurnard lives at depths of 200 meters small juveniles perfer shallow waters and are often
caught in shallow harbours.
Ocean floor photos from black swan.[attach=1
Ossy

New Discovery Video...

http://tinyurl.com/8nl7ab

The guy in the video is Tom Dettweiler, a friend of mine for over 20 years. He and I had a company that tried in vain to secure shipwreck permits in Portugal and the Azores in the late 80's and early 90's. He was mission planner for TITANIC and BISMARCK with Wood's Hole and then left there to work with Nauticos, the company that found I-52, Israeli sub DAKAR and IJN carrier KAGA.

Odyssey knew what they were doing when they hired Tom, he's also one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet!


Pirate Diver

SUNKEN 'TREASURE' YIELDS RICH BOOTY

By ROBERT RORKE
The New York Post

Being the first humans to see a shipwreck site never gets old," says Gregg Stemm, Co-Founder of Odyssey Marine Exploration. In "Treasure Quest," the new Discovery Channel series, Stemm and his team take to the high seas in search of silver and gold coins and artifacts.

In the first episode, airing Thursday, Stemm's ship, Odyssey Explorer, goes on the hunt for the Merchant Royal, a 17th-century treasure vessel that contains 32 cannons and a bronze ship bell. With the help of Zeus, a multimillion, 8-ton robot that can be lowered onto selected target sites and retrieve artifacts one by one with its "arms."

Equipped as well with a high-definition camera, Zeus can transmit live images to the crew in the control room.Stemm, who studied Marine Biology in college, has an impressive track record in deep-ocean archaeology. In 2003, he and his team found the Civil War shipwreck SS Republic. Lost in a hurricane in 1865, the Republic went down 100 miles off the coast of Georgia. The booty included over 51,000 coins and 14,000 artifacts. Even more stellar, Stemm discovered, in 2007, the largest historic treasure find to date-the Black Swan. Over 500,000 coins were recovered from the Colonial-era site.

Over the course of the 11-week series, the Odyssey Explorer tours WWII wreck sites, identifying four German U-boats in four days, and finding one American boat the Cyrus H. McCormack, the last of the WWII convoy boats to be sunk by the enemy. Stemm and crew also visit the site of the Lusitania wreckage.

As he says, "Shipwrecks tell wonderful stories of the past, and we are passionate about sharing these stories and the treasures recovered with the world."

Le Marquis Tournay...

It looks like Odyssey may have identified one of the arrests from last May.

Justia link: http://tinyurl.com/8k354w

How does Admirality work in an instance where this claim is 5 miles out from center point IE coordinated TBD?
What if this is on the border or close to international waters, does the claim stop at the 3 or 9 mile limit depending on the coast?

Here's 19 videos about life aboard the Odyssey Explorer. They run consecutively.

http://tinyurl.com/9pz569

Extremely clever advertising Jeff ! Give Odyssey a human touch, People , faces and names !
makes you feel you should invited them home to meet mum .
They had me cracking up on the farting scene, must be a boy thing, very clever
Ossy

Thanks for sharing Jeff. I don't get the Discovery Channel

DL

Merchant Royal info.

http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/treasur...quest/timelines/merchant-royal.html

[AGI, Section Consulados, bundle # 865]

Merchant Royal info.

http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/treasur...quest/timelines/merchant-royal.html

List of the load that embarked in Veracruz the ship El Soberbio that shipwrecked in the [beach] Barrosa on the day February 2, 1752 
 
Her majesty 
1 little box of currencies...... 
 
Privates 
1,131,331 pesos in coined silver 
     15,806 in doubloons 
          764 marks of figured silver 
 19 ounces of jewels of gold...... 
 
AGI, Section Consulados, bundle # 865 
 
Jeff, this is to demonstrate facts, the rest is pure speculations of stock market.

Jeff,

So the coins belonged to the Spanish bank?

Mariner

Mariner... From what I can tell, the treasure belonged to a consortium of English merchants, Capt. John Limbrey, and the Fugger banking family.

"Among those consignments was a freight of 60 chests of silver coins and bullions from the Spanish banking house of Escuazola.  Research indicates this financial firm, also Spain’s agents for the rich and powerful European banking house of Fugger, apparently intended the money to redeem bills of exchange in Flanders – a kind of “inter-bank transfer” of money between two private interests.  The Dover Merchant was available to accompany Limbrey’s ship and its rich cargo when the two vessels departed for England."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugger

Thanks Jeff,

But just because the Spanish bank was the agent for the Fuggers, among others, does not mean that the coins belonged to the Fuggers.

If I owe you money and I mail it to you, but the payment gets lost on the way, I still owe you the money, wouldn't you agree? The coins still belonged to the Spanish banking house of Escuazola, if you are correct in the information you provided, or to whoever they were acting for in sending the money, depending on their contractual arrangements.

Mariner

Mariner... What's the difference if it belonged to a Spanish bank or German bank? It was a commercial shipment as far as I know.

Jeff,

I was interested as to why you excluded any Spanish interest in your previous response, when there clearly is one.

Mariner
 

Would it matter if the bank was a private bank or one owned by the Spanish government?

w2sd

I think that from what Jeff said in his earlier post that the Bank was independent (albeit an agent for the Spanish Government amongst others).  It might matter if the bank was acting on behalf of the Spanish Government. The issue is understanding to whom the coins belonged, and that would depend on the agreements between the bank and its client. My point is that Jeff went out of his way to exclude any Spanish interest in the cargo, and I wonder why he did that.

Mariner
 

Mariner... No need to worry, because Spain has no claim on the MR. Odyssey knows this from their research, and Spain's attorney now knows this since he has copies of all the documents. Also, I doubt if the arrested shipwreck is the MR. It's just common sense if it was the MR, they would have found some coins or bars of silver.

Jeff,

I happen to agree with your conclusions. It is just that overstating the case, or providing a slanted view, does little to enhance personal credibility.

Best wishes,

Mariner
 

Mariner... If I knew Spain had a claim I would have said so, period.

Jeff,

I am not saying that the Kingdom of Spain had an interest, I don't know, but you attributed to the Fuggers the claim that the Spanish bank appears to have, and stated that the only owners of the cargo were the captain, some English merchants and the Fuggers. Or did I misunderstand what you said?

quote author=Jeff K link=topic=104286.msg1520356#msg1520356 date=1232246559]
Mariner... From what I can tell, the treasure belonged to a consortium of English merchants, Capt. John Limbrey, and the Fugger banking family.[/quote]

Mariner

Mariner... Well, that's all I'm aware of. I can only post what I know, and I did start the sentence with, "From what I can tell." I did include the name of the Spanish banking firm in that post, so I don't know what your problem is.   

Jeff,

Peace, Brother.

Mariner

Mariner wrote

If I owe you money and I mail it to you, but the payment gets lost on the way, I still owe you the money, wouldn't you agree? The coins still belonged to the Spanish banking house of Escuazola, if you are correct in the information you provided, or to whoever they were acting for in sending the money, depending on their contractual arrangements.

Mariner don't waist your time arguing with Jeff and others Odyssey's advocate. No matter if you're right, Spain or whoever, for those guys they're wrong unless they have, in the past, some relationship with "England" or "Germany". This is a bad feeling passing it from generation to generation, father to son to grandson,etc. This issue coming before 1492.

By the way, enjoy the live, enjoy tomorrow, inauguration day.

Arch.

Arch, since you live just outside to loop, are you going to post pics of the inauguration tonight?

HMS Sussex Project Preliminary Report...

http://www.shipwreck.net/pdf/OMEPapers1-SussexShipwreckProject.pdf

Great post Jeff. That was very interesting, especially the part about "no correlation exists between increased depth and superior site preservation." So the wreck is disintegrating despite being over 2,000 feet deep.

Great report Jeff, Odyssey know their stuff. the report did leave out why the Spanish Government
Stopped their project ! Removal of Artifacts and coins ring a bell ! from the Mercedes, Odyssey should not leave out these details if they feel they have done nothing wrong.
I hope Odyssey do work out a deal with the Spanish Government and are allowed to work with a
Spanish team,not only on this site but others. As the report said the site is being destroyed.
Ossy

USA Today Article...

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/scienc...no/2009-01-25-sunken-treasure_N.htm

As I have said before, I don't approve of Odyssey having removed all the coins from the wreck, but when the dust has settled, I don't know how many of those coins are needed by institutions/museums for studying. It strikes me that if 10% are provided/sold for academic examination, and the other 90% are sold to finance the next important find, then doesn't everybody win? It's time that archaeologists and salvagers got together, but I am afraid that the UNESCO convention is going to mean the end of responsible recovery as well as the pirates, and that can only reduce the amount of information that we glean from our past. we need to find a means of encouraging responsible recovery and stopping piracy, and I wish that people like Jim Delgado, whom I personally like and have a lot of time for, were working to that end.

Speaking of piracy, a large proportion of the collections at the Smithsonian, British Museum etc were "acquired" in a manner that was far from ethical or to exacting archaeological standards, and most of these institutions are refusing to repatriate these pieces, which include many objects stolen from graves. Of course, they are supposedly not making a profit, but lots of people are making a comfortable living out of these collections, paid for by the taxes of people like me and you.

Mariner

[monopolies]

As I have said before, I don't approve of Odyssey having removed all the coins from the wreck, but when the dust has settled, I don't know how many of those coins are needed by institutions/museums for studying. It strikes me that if 10% are provided/sold for academic examination, and the other 90% are sold to finance the next important find, then doesn't everybody win? It's time that archaeologists and salvagers got together, but I am afraid that the UNESCO convention is going to mean the end of responsible recovery as well as the pirates, and that can only reduce the amount of information that we glean from our past. we need to find a means of encouraging responsible recovery and stopping piracy, and I wish that people like Jim Delgado, whom I personally like and have a lot of time for, were working to that end.

Speaking of piracy, a large proportion of the collections at the Smithsonian, British Museum etc were "acquired" in a manner that was far from ethical or to exacting archaeological standards, and most of these institutions are refusing to repatriate these pieces, which include many objects stolen from graves. Of course, they are supposedly not making a profit, but lots of people are making a comfortable living out of these collections, paid for by the taxes of people like me and you.

Mariner

Mariner, as in all the monopolies, will be so that some few ones keep everything and many  anything !! And about seeing museums...... we will already speak in a future.

USA today
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/scienc...no/2009-01-25-sunken-treasure_N.htm

Mariner, you make some good points, It still doesn't take away Odyssey theft of Spanish property
being from personal Spaniards or crown !
Odyssey is a company and they are there to make money, that is their no 1 goal. they can paint a
Pretty picture all they like, sure there are benefits for the rest of us that get to see these time
capsules come to life again.
I would like to see Spain take control, they could contract Odyssey to bring back so much of this
Spanish history for all to enjoy, but Spain having control not the other way round.
Ossy 

Hey Ossy... Are you accusing Odyssey of doing something illegal? The word theft is pretty strong language, and may even be libelous. It's obvious you have no clue as to the Law of the Sea. Spain can cry all they want too, but their laws and jurisdiction only extend 24 nm from their coastline.   

Jeff,the courts will decide, Spain has never abandoned any of its ships and never will ! What does the law of the sea say
 for flagged naval ships, they can twist it around all they like !  We will see what the court does.
 and as a Spaniard I will always protest for anything taken from Spain without permission !
Ossy

GibFocus Article...

HMS Sussex exploration: Spain cannot be allowed to get away with piracy says Opposition
gibfocus - 27th January 2009

According to a recent company report, Odyssey Marine Exploration has been unable to continue its work on the site of the shipwreck believed to be that of HMS Sussex because of interference from the Spanish Government and its agencies. Central to this is the continuing dispute of the sovereignty over the waters around Gibraltar which Spain continues to claim as her own.

The Opposition has said it takes a very serious view of this latest development which comes at a time when the territorial waters of Gibraltar have been placed under the microscope by Spanish politicians as a consequence of the eastside project.

In its latest report into the work done on the site believed to be that of HMS Sussex, the company says that at present access “remains denied to Odyssey by the Spanish government despite the wreck’s location in international waters, as recognized by the UK Government.” The company highlights the abrupt deterioration of relations with Spain and the “aggressive nature of the confrontation” which “required immediate action to ensure the health, safety and security of all staff aboard the Odyssey Explorer.” It will be recalled that Spain subsequently arrested an Odyssey vessel after it exited Gibraltar’s three mile limit even though the vessel was in international waters at the time.

"There are a number of serious issues that arise from this situation," said the Opposition. "The company is in partnership with the UK Ministry of Defence over its work on this site. This means that the British Government has a very real and direct interest in any treasure or artefacts found on the site. The British Government must have made a very weak defence of their own interests given that the project has had to be postponed because of Spain.

"The site is located in between the three mile limit of territorial sea that the UK has claimed for Gibraltar, and the twelve mile limit that the UK is entitled to claim. This means that whereas for Britain, and indeed under international law, the wreck is in international waters, for Spain it is in Spanish waters. It is clear to the Opposition that the failure of the UK to claim the twelve mile limit for Gibraltar on the east side has been a contributory factor in this dispute. It has allowed Spain to behave like pirates as if the sea belonged to them and as if they can do whatever they like. The United Kingdom cannot allow Spain to get away with piracy.

"The UN Convention on the law of the sea was signed in 1982 and entered into force in 1995. This set a new standard of twelve nautical miles of territorial sea which each country is entitled to claim. The United Kingdom has claimed it for other Overseas Territories but not for Gibraltar. The failure of the UK to claim the twelve nautical miles means that the east side of Gibraltar at present includes an area of sea which is regarded as international waters.

"Spain has no right to harass Odyssey or its vessels in Gibraltar or in international waters. The United Kingdom cannot simply let the matter rest there both as a partner in this project and as the party with the power to claim the twelve miles of territorial sea. The Opposition reiterate that the sooner the UK claims the twelve miles for Gibraltar on the east side the sooner that this issue will be resolved."

http://www.gibfocus.gi/details_todaysnews.php?id=4359

Kingdom of Spain's reply to O.M.E
http://docs.justia.com/cases/federa...mdce/8:2007cv00614/197978/163/0.pdf

It seems to me that if Spain had been more cooperative with Gibraltar and Odyssey Marine over the Sussex Project, instead of constantly delaying the project and costing Odyssey a boatload of money in the process. Maybe Gregg and the folks at Odyssey would not have had reason to trust Spain and bring them in to work with them on the Black Swan project. Remember, that Odyssey was under no legal or moral obligation to partner up with Spain over the Black Swan.
Given the circumstances at the time, I would have handled the Black Swan discovery in the exact same way. Spain left them no other choice.

Wreckdiver 1715, court filing " FLAGGED ROYAL NAVAL WAR SHIP " under orders from naval command !
the whole cargo could have been 100% commercial, would not make any difference at all.
You say Odyssey was under no legal or moral obligation, You got to be joking !
The clock is ticking, and we both know that this has caused more harm than good to all Treasure hunters.
I think Odyssey would do well to stay clear of the Gibraltar saga, poking Spain in the eye, will only piss them off more.
Ossy

New Discovery Video...

Make sure you read the text at the end.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/news.html

" Finding Treasure and Losing History

  http://www.archaeology.org/

Wreckdiver 1715, court filing " FLAGGED ROYAL NAVAL WAR SHIP " under orders from naval command !
the whole cargo could have been 100% commercial, would not make any difference at all.
You say Odyssey was under no legal or moral obligation, You got to be joking !
The clock is ticking, and we both know that this has caused more harm than good to all Treasure hunters.
I think Odyssey would do well to stay clear of the Gibraltar saga, poking Spain in the eye, will only piss them off more.
Ossy

Ossy, No! not kidding at all...
Irregardless if it is a Flagged Royal Navel War Ship or not, that is for the courts to decide, and we will all have to sit back and wait on the decision of the judge. I have no doubt that Odyssey will honer the decision of the court if Spain wins it's legal challenge concerning ownership. Just as I am sure Spain will honor the decision of the court as well.

Why should Odyssey have any obligation to invite the Spanish government as a partner to recover a unknown shipwreck in international waters? Even if Odyssey had a reasonable suspicion that the ship may be Spanish, they are under no legal obligation to do anything with Spain. There obligation is to follow international law (as they did), than recover the artifacts and protect there investment (as they did). They secured a legal arrest of the site, and have done everything by the book. They have gone above and beyond in the area of documentation and Archeology work at the site. Spain has a legal right and obligation to its own cultural heritage to challenge Odyssey in court, and they have. The process is the process. It does not make Spain any more a villain than Odyssey in this case.
The point I was making was that Odyssey, may have been inclined to invite Spain to be involved in the recovery of this suspected historic Spanish ship out of simple courtesy. However, since Spain had insisted on obstructing Odysseys attempt to recover an equally important UK shipwreck in International waters, I can see why Odyssey would not even consider contacting Spain in this matter, and keeping the recovery secret until the artifacts and Spice were secure in a safe location. Judging by Spains heavyhanded response to the news of the amount of Treasure recovered, I think Odyssey made some very sound business decisions in this matter.

I must be missing something! How has Odyssey hurt the Treasure Hunters world? Other than treasure hunters wanting to work in Spain or in Spanish waters, I just don't see it. It is apparent to me that Odyssey has made professional treasure hunting respectable, and has showed that the Private industry can work with archaeologist to recover and preserve the past.

I am sure that Odyssey will be back in International waters off of Gibraltar as soon as that legal issue is resolved.

Tom

wreckdiver1715, Tom hope you are well, I noticed your in Afghanistan, stay safe.
Your argument "unknown shipwreck does not go with Odyssey own admission with their new Discovery
series Quote " We reseach every target, we know what where looking for " The Lady of the Mercedes is well
documented, they had done their home work years earlier, They can play dumb, But as they keep saying
they are the world leader in this field, when they go looking for the Sussex they knew what their looking
for, Plus have many more targets they have researched.
I,m sorry you think I keep picking on Odyssey but the way they flew out the coins as fast as could
plus put a value of only 4 million dollars on their paper work shows they had something to hide.
It is wishful thinking if Odyssey thinks it will be around the waters off Gibraltar, you know what happen
last time!
The sinking of the Mercedes was an unprovoked act of war by the British, they killed hundreds
and then captured the other two ships for their booty.
Spain does not give two hoots about the coins its what it means to the Spanish people, I hope you can see through the dollars and cents. What is it really worth ? take the history away and its only metal value.
Read Spains response to Odyssey its all there. The judge looks at facts not hearsay.
Sam

Very nice Jeff, Looks like win win for Odyssey and the British, awesome cannons they should come up like
new, It will be interesting what deal they do, It could set a new bench mark. It will also be interesting to
see how the human remains are handled
Ossy

Peruvian FM to Hire Lawyers to Recover Treasure

Lima, Jan 30 (Prensa Latina)

The Peruvian government will hire a lawyer to defend its interests in a dispute in the United States over possession of the treasure seized by a US company from a Spanish galleon that sank in 1804.

The Foreign Ministry issued a resolution on the dispute between Spain and the company Odyssey Marine Exploration, which found the remains of the ship and seized 17 tons in silver coins and other treasures.

The 400-million-euro treasure came from Peru, which was the richest viceroyalty in the Spanish colonies at the time.

The galleon "Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes" set sail from the Peruvian port of Callao to the Spanish port of Cadiz, and was sunken by British warships on October 5, 1804, near Cape Santa Maria, off Portugal's coast.

Spain has filed a lawsuit to claim the treasure, but Lima claims that the cargo came from the Viceroyalty of Peru, so it belongs to the current Peruvian republic.

HMS Victory Found...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2009/feb/01/hms-victory-wreck

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5627477.ece

Great, lets allow all our heritage and artifacts to rot away on the seabed floor and disintegrate everytime a storm or fishing trawler passes by instead of allowing us to bring our finds to the people to share the past. These idiot archaeologist have no clue, whats the point of allowing it to sit there to a point it basically erodes away, so in a few more hundred years we can all pretend our past never happened. Ask my grandfather if he wants Auschwitz just covered up or if he wants people to keep artifacts to remind people it really happened, which it did. Let these archaeologist study in the classroom and keep them out of the real world as they have no clue to how things really are in the real world!

["SideImagingSoft.com - Humminbird Side Imaging Forums"]

It will be interesting to see what Odyssey does.  This is a very historic find and will be another feather in Odysseys hat.  I would think that they would be going out of their way to make sure this was done right.

Robert

Spain does not give two hoots about the coins its what it means to the Spanish people, I hope you can see through the dollars and cents.
Sam

I'm not picking a fight here, just a question...

Should this be true, and it's a historical interest only- then why is Spain uninterested in historic vessels not carrying treasure? I mean, they don't appear to be too concerned about vessels that have no large monetary value. I am sure that Odyssey would be happy to have Spain pay them for research and recovery of lots of historic sites. Odyssey can't eat the cost of recovery without someone footing the bill.

I firmly believe it's all about the money, for everyone concerned.

wreckdiver1715, Tom hope you are well, I noticed your in Afghanistan, stay safe.
Your argument "unknown shipwreck does not go with Odyssey own admission with their new Discovery
series Quote " We reseach every target, we know what where looking for " The Lady of the Mercedes is well
documented, they had done their home work years earlier, They can play dumb, But as they keep saying
they are the world leader in this field, when they go looking for the Sussex they knew what their looking
for, Plus have many more targets they have researched.
I,m sorry you think I keep picking on Odyssey but the way they flew out the coins as fast as could
plus put a value of only 4 million dollars on their paper work shows they had something to hide.
It is wishful thinking if Odyssey thinks it will be around the waters off Gibraltar, you know what happen
last time!
The sinking of the Mercedes was an unprovoked act of war by the British, they killed hundreds
and then captured the other two ships for their booty.
Spain does not give two hoots about the coins its what it means to the Spanish people, I hope you can see through the dollars and cents. What is it really worth ? take the history away and its only metal value.
Read Spains response to Odyssey its all there. The judge looks at facts not hearsay.
Sam

Ossy, Thanks my friend, we had yet another car bomb go off in Kabul today, but so far so good, the Taliban will have to try allot harder before they can get me.

Remember that Odyssey Marine believe the ship that they found could in fact be the Merchant Royal, A British ship, and they were actively looking for, and would not know the ships identity until further investigation. There are estimates of more than 800 shipwrecks in this general location, and there is no way to determine the identity with any degree of certainty until further archaeological investigation was completed. To say that Odyssey knew for sure that this wreck was the Mercedes, and should have obtained Spains permission is just a little far fetched in my opinion.
Knowing a little bit about history and Napoleon's promises to Spain, do you really think it fair to say that the sinking of the Mercedes was an unprovoked attack by the British?
I can see through the dollars and cents on this, and I doubt very much if the Spanish Government would be at all interested in this legal battle if there weren't allot of Dollars and Cents up for grabs. That's allot of money!

I totally disagree with you Guy in the back.
The so called $500 million on coins that are badly worn and all Identical ( machine made ) not cobs
Will be lucky to be worth $20 million, now a country like Spain the 8th largest economy in the world
would worry about this amount ! It's like peeing in the ocean it won't make a difference.
It about national pride, It's about having a Spanish flagged war ship looted with major historical importance.
Theirs no difference with the discovery of the flagged war ship the victory, why is Odyssey handling this
any different O that's right no Gold or silver, bronze cannons worth $250,000 US, Yea right !
as if the English are going to let Odyssey have them !
And Guy in the back it's a good question I hope I make some sense and I really enjoy this post
It's always good to see the other side and have an intelligent discusion
Ossy

Guy In Back, I agree with you. Spain is only interested in wrecks with money on board. Here is a perfect example: The University of W. Florida found two of Tristan de Luna's ships that sank in 1559 of the W. coast of Florida. These are historically important to Spain but there is no treasure on board so Spain does not want anything to do with the wrecks. UWF excavated one wreck they call the Emanuel Point wreck and found lots of artifacts but no treasure and no protest from Spain.

To compare the atrocities of Auschwitz with the current discussion is not only uncalled for, but an injustice for the millions of Jews (and others) that did suffer.     
[/quote]

SWR, my father was deported from Italy to Germany for  banal reasons. The serious question is: who financed Hitler? Look for the answer and you will know the truth !! The official history always counts us part of the truth, the other part is for the flock of idiots.

Wreck of renowned British warship found in Channel

By MITCH STACY, Associated Press

TAMPA, Fla. – Florida deep-sea explorers who found $500 million in sunken treasure two years ago say they have discovered another prized shipwreck: A legendary British man-of-war that sank in the English Channel 264 years ago.

Odyssey Marine Exploration hasn't found any gold this time, but it's looking for an even bigger jackpot. The company's research indicates the HMS Victory was carrying 4 tons of gold coins that could be worth considerably more than the treasure that Odyssey raised from a sunken Spanish galleon in 2007, co-founder Greg Stemm said ahead of a news conference set for Monday in London.

So far, Odyssey has recovered two brass cannons from the wreck of the Victory and continues to examine and map the debris field, which lies about 330 feet beneath the surface, Stemm said. The company said it is negotiating with the British government over collaborating on the project.

"This is a big one, just because of the history," Stemm said. "Very rarely do you solve an age-old mystery like this."

Odyssey said the 31 brass cannons and other evidence on the wreck allowed definitive identification of the HMS Victory, 175-foot sailing ship that was separated from its fleet during a storm and sank in the English Channel on Oct. 4, 1744, with at least 900 men aboard. The ship was the largest and, with 110 brass cannons, the most heavily armed vessel of its day. It was the inspiration for the HMS Victory famously commanded by Adm. Horatio Nelson decades later.

Odyssey was searching for other valuable shipwrecks in the English Channel when it came across the Victory. Stemm wouldn't say exactly where the ship was found for fear of attracting plunderers, though he said it wasn't close to where it was expected to be.

"We found this more than 50 miles from where anybody would have thought it went down," Stemm said. Federal court records filed by Odyssey in Tampa seeking the exclusive salvage rights said the site is 25 to 40 miles from the English coast, outside of its territorial waters.

A Ministry of Defense spokesman said Sunday the government was aware of Odyssey's claim to have found the Victory.

"Assuming the wreck is indeed that of a British warship, her remains are sovereign immune," he said on condition of anonymity in keeping with government policy. "This means that no intrusive action may be taken without the express consent of the United Kingdom."

He would not say whether the government had begun talks with Odyssey over the future of the find.

Newspapers of the day and other historical records analyzed by the company indicated that the Victory sank off the Channel Island of Alderney near Cherbourg, France. A 1991 British postage stamp depicts the Victory crashing on the rocks there. Pieces of the ship had washed up in various places, but its final resting place had remained a mystery.

The belief that the Victory had crashed onto the rocks had marred an otherwise exemplary service record of the ship's commander, Sir John Balchin, and a lighthouse keeper on Alderney was prosecuted for failing to keep the light on. Odyssey believes the discovery exonerates both men.

"As far as the family is concerned, it is an astonishing revelation," said Robert Balchin, a 66-year-old British university administrator and direct descendant of the commander. "It's as if he's sort of come alive again.

"When I went to see this extraordinary find of the cannon with the coat of arms of the king on the side, it was really a wonderful feeling to know that Sir John Balchin saw that every day, and it brought a very special communion with the past."

The HMS Victory was returning from Lisbon, Portugal, and was probably transporting 100,000 gold Portuguese coins for merchants, according to Odyssey's research. The ship had sailed there to help rescue a Mediterranean convoy blockaded by the French in the River Tagus at Lisbon.

The wreck site is roughly 70 feet by 200 feet and littered with other debris, Odyssey said. Its research ship, Odyssey Explorer, is equipped with a remote underwater robot capable of carefully removing the smallest of items from the bottom and shooting high-resolution photos and video.

Odyssey, a publicly traded corporation, announced in May 2007 that it had raised 17 tons of silver coins from an Atlantic Ocean shipwreck. The company later said it believed the wreck to be the Spanish galleon Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes y las Animas, which sank off Portugal in 1804.

Shortly afterward, the Spanish government sued Odyssey in federal court in Tampa to claim the treasure, arguing that the shipwreck was never abandoned by Spain. The case is pending.

Some in the Spanish government have called the company 21st-century pirates, and twice in the months after the 2007 announcement, ships from Spain's Civil Guard seized Odyssey ships off the Spanish coast. Both ships and their crews were released within a week.

The company's relationship with the British government has been more cordial. Odyssey had already negotiated an agreement with British officials regarding the search for the HMS Sussex, which sank in the western Mediterranean in 1694 with gold coins aboard.

Gold from merchants, flagged naval war ship, bronze cannons. " Sovereign Immune "
This sounds very familiar.
Ossy

"You need to tone down the name calling and talking down about people whom you do not even know. Archeologists are not idiots, and they do have a clue what is going on. Just because you have a difference of opinion does not entitle you to demeanor a person or their chosen occupation."

Where are you coming from SWR? Arn't you the same person that has a difference of opinion with just about everyone on this forum? I am entitled to whatever I dam well please, I unlike yourself am not afraid to tell these "experts" what I think of their hypocritic field of studies. Maybe instead of just contributing to this forum everyone here should use our numbers to fight these,(yes idiots) before we are too late and become extinct so to speak. We are as right as they may think they are, so either they meet us in the middle or we take the fight to them! It is just a matter of time , if we do not organize soon this way of life will be over for most of us in Florida and eventually everywhere else!

SWR
Back to the Facts, I once asked why Odyssey didn't bring up the Bronze cannons from the Black swan
they took video and blew away sand so the cannons where exposed.
The question still remains, especially if you now look at the Victory discovery, no problem lifting
2 cannons twice the size of the Mercedes
Could it be as the Victory the clear marking on the bronze cannons would clearly show what ship
they came off.
Cheers, Ossy

 I agree with Ossy that there is a good chance of determining the identity of the Black Swan using other artifacts such as cannon, however, nothing is certain. I also understand the position of Odssey given the position of Spain in the past. They dont seem very cooperative which encourages the behavior odyssey exhibits.....At least that is my view from the sidelines...
  I am hopeful that the British will help create an atmosphere of cooperation that will somehow seed future cooperation with others.......of course there is treasure involved........so who knows.........

HMS Victory Video...

http://dsc.discovery.com/video/player.html?bclid=1173351593

FOX News Video...

http://tinyurl.com/d2kl48