1840-1860 era Antique Photo Portrait- Restoration COMPLETE! - 6 March

[[FINAL RESTORED PHOTOS ON PAGE 2 REPLY 112]]

Did some exploring this morning and came upon a small area with a bunch of iron hits and got one real good reading that possibly was a coin but to my surprise there in the ground was a mini-frame, which at the time I thought was a mirror.

Once I got it home and cleaned it up a little, I saw that the mirror was actually water underneath the glass, so I put the mini frame under a desk lamp and after an hour the water dried up and the mirror effect was gone but now I could vaguely see a Portrait of a man or woman wearing a hat, most of the details are there, I might play around later with different lighting and camera settings to see if it clears up any more, but you can see the hat, the eyes, nose, mouth, neck, shoulders, so I have no doubt it is an old portrait of some type. I have no idea on the age but I would guess between Civil War era up to turn of the century based on the style and the hat.Open for any guesses on man or woman and age of this artifact.
I am not sure if the site was a homestead, work area or even a out of the way dump, but there was a small depression in the ground nearby, so perhaps it was a simple living area or it was a work area of some type.
The other object is rather fragile and I have no idea what it is other than old....
[FINAL RESTORED PHOTOS ON PAGE 2 REPLY 112]Don

Nice photo frame!

Can it come apart without harming it any? Be cool to see the photo

Nice finds!!!

Interesting Relic...Congrats and HH

Nice 1 Don how you feeling ?...aa

Nice find!

Did some more research this afternoon and it appears the mini frame photograph is perhaps a Ambrotype, if so it is more likely of Civil War era and I also found a photo or two from the Civil War era with men wearing hats very similar to my photo.  I am going to ask around on some photo sites for more information and whether to try and open up the case and clean the inside of the glass frame that holds a lot of dirt, or leave it be, and if any preservation needs to be done.
The photo did not get any better drying out overnight, so what is in the posted pics is the best that can be seen.

Excerpt from this site: http://www.ajmorris.com/roots/photo/history.php
In 1854, an offspring of the wet plate method was introduced to compete with the daguerreotype, the new form being called an ambrotype. In this process, a glass plate was again used. By mounting the negative image in a case with a black backing, it could be viewed as a positive image. This form was quite popular from 1855 to about 1870.

Don

     Very interesting!

That is a very cool find.  Very interesting.  Congrats!

That is a very cool find.  It looks as though the figure is a man, possibly bearded with a necktie.  I messed with the brightness, contrast and midtones a little to see if I could bring out any detail.  It seems to be a bit better.

That is a very cool find.  It looks as though the figure is a man, possibly bearded with a necktie.  I messed with the brightness, contrast and midtones a little to see if I could bring out any detail.  It seems to be a bit better.

Neil, I played around too and got similar results, for a friend who had trouble seeing any figure at all I did the following photo marking, I wish I had a better program to draw a good outline, I might have one but do not know how to do it,  anyway, here is what I did for him, and yes, I think a beard also.

Don

HOLY COW !!!    Thats a photo of my great great great great semi-great grand pappy !!!  LOL !

Nice find Don !  ;)

D.

I think you found a rare Red Skelton photo 

Don... a most excellent find!

I can't see anything in the pic except stains.  

I recant my first choice of it being my 5x grand pappy...I looked again...miniture photo of the shroud of Turin !!

Don... a most excellent find!

I can't see anything in the pic except stains.  

Jim, once you look,especially on the doctored photo by Neil it is rather easy to see the portrait.  I am used to looking for them, years ago I found numerous photo ID badges from a local WWI munitions plant and some were rather clear and some were impossible to make out the photo and ID number below there mugs, but these are on I believe Celluoloid, but still the same appearance to them.

It is actually amazing anything is seeable on the mini-portrait since all I read about this type is that water destroys them and lol this photo was filled with water, that is why it looked like a mirror until the water evaporated and then the photo outlines started to appear.......

NO DOUBT that that's Elvis!

 found one of these a few years back but it had a lock of hair in it. looks to be 1850s-1870s possible older, only guessing since the small frame i found looks like yours and thats what i was told  after i had it checked out with a curatior from phildelphia.

awesome find!  perhaps if you scan it & then play w/ darkening the pic you might be able to get a little better view.  just a thought.

Love the finds Don 

i tried messing with it a lil to so if i could bring it out some i dunno if it helped but kinda looks like a guy in a army uniform from the civil war era maybe

please don't get too creeped out by what I have to say --you said their was a shallow depression in the near by ground? --- you might have found a "grave" photo --- from a family "homestead" type grave plot --- often folks put photographs of their loved ones in a frame to "see" them when they went to visit their grave -- today some folks have special head stones with photos enclosed in them or likeness of the dead "lazer" carved into the stone --some even have "interactive" type devices that play a breif -- "tape" of the persons "life' ---so things and people don't change --just they techo stuff of how they do it.

several  "tin type" photographs of the dead are in my very old family photo book -- it was common back then to "dress up" the dead and have their photo taken and put it in the family "photo' album --to "remember them" by and so to be able to show others years later what they "looked" like -- morbid by todays standards --but times were differant back then.

LOL,  I'm 100% sure not a grave site, the depression(round, not rectangle shaped   ) nearby was a good 15 feet away at least and an old overgrown path/road in-between where I found it.  The iron hits were numerous like a typcial homestead or work area in this part of the state. 
Since my hunt that day was more exploratory than settling down to hit one site hard, I will return eventually and spend more time at that spot and see if anything else is recovered.   

Don

I love it! Looks very ghostly......What a cool find! Congrats Don!

HH,
Moon

Very weird find in that there's still detail present. I'm pretty sure that it is indeed an ambrotype, If I remember my past readings about photography. I think there'd be nothing left but a rust stain if it were a Daguerrotype or tintype.

Verrrrrrry Interesting! (to parahrase Artie Johnson)

WTG,
SgtSki

[Update:]

Very weird find in that there's still detail present. I'm pretty sure that it is indeed an ambrotype, If I remember my past readings about photography. I think there'd be nothing left but a rust stain if it were a Daguerrotype or tintype.

Verrrrrrry Interesting! (to parahrase Artie Johnson)

WTG,
SgtSki

Ski, I agree, that if a tintype it most likely would have been all rusted out. There is no rust, just the blue spots of copper corrosion.  If I could bend one tab in the back and slide out the portrait, I know cleaning the back side of the glass cover would help a lot in seeing the photograph more clearly but fear the copper tab would crack.  But, it might be worth it to see the photo better.  I think I will mull this one over for a bit.  Open for suggestions, other than leaving it alone, which I might do, but darn, it sure would be nice to see if a clearer picture emerges if the glass on top was cleaned.

Update:   There is a possibility this might be a Daguerreotype, which would be maybe even pre Civil War, since the back plate is copper, and when i first found it I said I thought it was a mirror, the more I read on Daguerreotypes, the more I believe it is one and not a glass type photograph known as the Ambrotype.   The Daguerreotype was a piece of copper which was silver plated and the photograph was on that silver plating which was then enclosed behind glass in a frame.  Seems to match the appearance of mine.  Without an expert in the field commenting,  this is all logical guesswork on my part and I am trying to find someone well versed in the old photographs to say what type it is and if it can be conserved.

Don

I was in contact this afternoon with Princeton University concerning the type of photograph and whether it could be successfully conserved.  I got a confirmation on the type and was given three points of contact to have the photograph evaluated and whether it could be conserved or not, of course at a price. 

I found a great website from Princeton University that shows conservation before and after photos and when I saw some very similar to mine I was pleasantly surprised and now have hope that it is possible to restore this photo.   Check out this webisite and look at the portrait photos and then look at the after conserving photos and the difference is amazing.  Sure would be nice if mine could be saved like that.

http://infoshare1.princeton.edu/lib...line_ex/dags/conserve/electro.shtml

Don

One of the more interesting relics I have ever seen dug Don, congrats on a great find!

Those cleaned photos were amazing, how big of a fee are they talking? I think I'd just about have to get it restored if I had found it.

Those cleaned photos were amazing, how big of a fee are they talking? I think I'd just about have to get it restored if I had found it.

LOL,  I just got an estimate and I would not even consider it at the price given....Trust me when I say, I could buy a very good new metal detector for the estimate.  Hoping to get some more information from two others and then decided to leave it as is or become a conservator.

Don

Nice find there...could see anything but congratz on what you did find.

Absolutely cool find!  I think the area that you marked as possibly being a beard is actually the neck area. 

vicki

Absolutely fabulous post, Don!  It is a shame it is so expensive to have it restored.  Do you know who occupied the homestead in the mid 19th century? 

Absolutely fabulous post, Don!  It is a shame it is so expensive to have it restored.  Do you know who occupied the homestead in the mid 19th century? 

Neil, no idea, it does not show on any maps and I am still not certain it is a homestead, could be just a work area or a short time lived area.  It is a two mile walk to the site, so I do not plan on getting back there till sometime next week weather permitting.

Don

Since the prices given for restoration by a professional was beyond financial reason in my opinion, maybe if it was my ggggrandfather I might have considered it, but a challenge lies before me now.

I carefully opened up the portrait this morning, I have had a few emails from Princeton Univ and Boston that the portrait may not be a Daguerreotype but a relatively uncommon type, so the not knowing was killing my curiosity and since I am not too afraid of trying to restore and conserve other artifacts I decided to go ahead and at minimum, open it up and clean the glass off.

Well, to my delight, upon opening I can confirm in my mind that it is a Daguerreotype photo from the 1840-1850's.  The photograph IS on a silvered copper sheet.   The conservator from Boston thought perhaps it was on a paper of some type but it is not.

Now, the photo is much clearer, just being freed from the glass, which by the way is rather thick, 25mm or a tad more than a tenth of an inch.

I am currently soaking the glass in warm distilled water and will at minimum have that as clean and clear as possible.  Now I have to figure out how to clean and the blue copper salts on the copper frame insert and then the biggie, do I want to try the Princeton method of electrolysis on the photo plate itself. The corrosion needs to be stopped somehow and conserving it is the only way.

The Electrolysis they used was household Ammonia and distilled water with a piece of silver  in the solution under low voltage.  I have to mull this over a bit. But regardless, I will go ahead and do something to preserve this piece of history and do my best not to destroy it.

For those who could not see the figure before (Hi Jim) I think now it is quite visible.
This is one of the neatest relics I have found!

Don

Now that is what i am talking about Don....We talked about this in chat a couple of days ago.

Look like you have a real nice find, and I am glad that everything worked out for you when you pulled it out of the frame.

     Now that is the nicest picture frame that I have seen found .  Finding something with the picture still intact is almost impossible with the forces of nature working against you.  That is a great find ,  clean the baby up and maybe fit one of your old pics laying around the house in it.  This locket I found in the fall had this old pic in it amazingly it is still intact...............WTG

                                                                                     John

Don that is to cool,keep us updated on it. You are doing good work on it.

DON .  BEING  THAT SOME PEOPLE IN THOSE DAY WERE SO POOR . AND PEOPLE LIVING AND WORKING IN THE PINES EVEN POORER ......YOU MIGHT HAVE A GREAT SITE  THERE . COULD HAVE BEEN A RICH AREA . OR A GUY HORSE RIDING LOST IT OR PINE ROBBER HIDE OUT . THIS WOODS HOLD SO MANY SECRETS . WHERE THERE ANY OLD BLACK WALNUT TREES NEAR BUY ............ALFONSO

interesting thread.
 Note the electrolysis of such for cleaning most likely would be in a temperature controlled bath. Other baths after it would allow the fixing of the cleaning and would used other chemicals to do so.

The coper salts afixed to it present there own problem and may need to be dealt with prior to electrolysis. Some were out there should be a book with the procedures to do this. May have to take the time to see if I can find one. Short of that check classes at a universitys
and see if you can find a student studying such looking for a project.

DON .  BEING  THAT SOME PEOPLE IN THOSE DAY WERE SO POOR . AND PEOPLE LIVING AND WORKING IN THE PINES EVEN POORER ......YOU MIGHT HAVE A GREAT SITE  THERE . COULD HAVE BEEN A RICH AREA . OR A GUY HORSE RIDING LOST IT OR PINE ROBBER HIDE OUT . THIS WOODS HOLD SO MANY SECRETS . WHERE THERE ANY OLD BLACK WALNUT TREES NEAR BUY ............ALFONSO

I went back there yesterday and not one diggable reading at this site, I believe it was a work area for the old homestead about two blocks away where I found the items I posted yesterday..
This type of photograph was not usually done by poor people, I was told that they cost over $5 in the 1840-50's and that was almost equal to a weeks wages back then.  The Ambrotypes which started to become popular during the Civil War, which were photogrpahs on glass, were much more affordable and cost only pennies by comparison.

Don

wow cool photo --"seeing him" ---  would only spark my interest farther to try and find out the who and when of him  -- he looks alive indeed --eyes open and such --and fairly well dressed to boot --- so a "death photo" is out --- great find --- Ivan

Oh my goodness! What an exciting find! I would have been sooo nervous opening it up!

                          Many congrats on that find! Nana

Very, very cool! WTG!

I agree very impressive find. I wish the one I found still had a viewable pic.  Maybe I'll try taking it apart today and see if I have any luck.   

Jim

WOW!!! Awesome...glad you were able to take the frame apart without any damage!!!

I copied your photo and tried to do a "quickie" restoration to it....it does appear he may have facial hair on the chin and sides of his face....

Can't wait to see your finished product!!! This is the stuff I really love to see!
Good Luck,
Annmarie

Fairly nice work Annmarie, thanks for posting your results,  fun playing with photos.

I am taking it slow, right now the glass is still soaking in 50/50 water and ammonia, just checked it and still foggy on one side. I have read that all conservators just about always replace the glass with modern,more inert glass, but I will stick with original.

Next the copper insert that was directly against the photo plate is now soaking in distilled water, not sure where I will go next with it for the copper salt damage.

The photo itself I am waiting for a few replies from experts on any help they might offer.  I am afraid most photo conservators do not or have not dealt too much with ground found photos for restoration. They say the Dagaerreotypes are the most fragile of all photos and worry about just how normal air and moisture can adversely affect the photos, yet alone one that was buried in the ground for over 150 years and recovered filled with water!   

Found another great website explaining the history of Daguerreotypes and one thing I learned is, mine is no earlier than 1842, since the top two corners are not sharp, that was not started till around 1842 to prevent damage during the plate making process due to sharp corners.

http://www.finedags.com/index.shtm

Don

Thanks Don...

I could have done a better job at it...but I wanted results now LOL...I love restoring old photos...some take longer to do than others...I've done so many from my family and a couple of friends....

I understand, with something like this...it's not doing it on the computer...please do take your time...I just can't wait to see the outcome!!!

I wish I could find something like this. Closet I got to an old photo (Civil War) in a picture frame I bid on it from an Estate Sale....photo of a guy from the Civil War in it...but haven't been able to find out who he is....But I still keep it....Although, the only thing in the box I wanted was the picture frame!!!

We patiencely await the results!!! Thanks for sharing,
Annmarie

Wow that is fabulous it looks like you are doing a great job restoring it, cant wait to see what happens next it is really wonderful to see something like this being saved!

Man, that is such a cool find!
Hope it turns out great!
Baggins

very nice

Don,

I have a good friend who does photo restoration in New York.  I will give him a call, and send him a link to this post.  I don't know if he can help you or not--but he'll at least be able to offer some sound advice one-on-one.  That photo is WONDERFUL!  If I had found that piece, it would CERTAINLY be my favorite find.  So, does it knock the homemade copper U.S. plate off the top of your list?

 


Regards,


Buckleboy

Don,

I have a good friend who does photo restoration in New York.  I will give him a call, and send him a link to this post.  I don't know if he can help you or not--but he'll at least be able to offer some sound advice one-on-one.  That photo is WONDERFUL!  If I had found that piece, it would CERTAINLY be my favorite find.  So, does it knock the homemade copper U.S. plate off the top of your list?

 


Regards,


Buckleboy

That would be great BB if he could offer even a tiny bit of advice, other than leave it alone or to a pro  ,  I am really worried that it has to be couple steps, first the copper corrosion, then the silver oxide cleaning.  I already have to replace the glass, which I will attempt tomorrow to hone up on my finger cutting, errr I mean glass cutting skills. I do have frame glass the right thickness, so hopefully tomorrow that will be done.  The copper frame and insert are still soaking in distilled water and I am leaving them there for a day or two, changing the water tomorrow with fresh hot distilled water.

My US homemade plate remains number one and King George I Indian Peace Medal remains number two but this is number three I am sure, at least at the moment.

Don

Don, it may take me a few days to track him down--he's pretty darned busy.  So hold tight.

And I wish you many more fantastic finds this year to add to your Top Ten List.   

Don, this is just so incredible.  Congrats on the find and keep us informed.  Words cannot express what I want to say, I'm just sitting here flabbergasted. 

 ;) RR

I have to agre with everyone else:  an excellent, historic find.  Very cool.  WTG and keep digging!

Donny - I found this while looking for other stuff... thought I would share it with you...

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...sp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

2/3s down the page...

I added your pic to show the similarities...

I honestly can say that finding that and saving  the photo as you have...........BANNER material. Definately a once in a life time find, I'd leave the spots on the picture and work on the glass. Makes it an antique.

Wonderful piece of histiry Don! Can't wait to see what else you get out of there.

Nice work on the interior metal border inside the frame, Jim!  So that exterior protective case around the frame was gutta percha.  So cool.  That was one of the "big" discoveries of the 1840's.  Some items made of gutta percha saw CW use.  I have heard that these items survive the years underground fairly well.  Its neat to see that photo.  Nothing is made of that material anymore.

-Buckleboy

Nice work on the interior metal border inside the frame, Jim!  So that exterior protective case around the frame was gutta percha.  So cool.  That was one of the "big" discoveries of the 1840's.  Some items made of gutta percha saw CW use.  I have heard that these items survive the years underground fairly well.  Its neat to see that photo.  Nothing is made of that material anymore.

-Buckleboy

Yuppers... Wingman Tony dug a gutta percha comb piece last summer... that stuff lasts forever!  It was a revolutionary thing in it's time.

Donny - I found this while looking for other stuff... thought I would share it with you...

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...sp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

2/3s down the page...

I added your pic to show the similarities...

[ ERROR: SPECIFIED ATTACHMENT MISSING ]

WOW Montana Jim...nice research! That is so beautiful and Don's is going to look just as nice when it's all cleaned up!!!

That is so cool......Nice. The man is there.
Hope he doesn't want his picture back....just kidding.
RD

OK,  I know a couple of people have tried their hand at making the pic clearer, but I figured I'd show you a photoshop edit of the pic.  I didn't add anything to the face...  just used a tool to bring out the highlights.  I did take the liberty of removing some of the marks.   Thanks for the great post of an awesome find!!!

 

Thanks  Joe,  I really hope the silver oxide on the portrait clears up when the conservation process begins.   I hope

There really is not too much copper corrosion damage on the portrait itself, most of it is where the copper matte plate was against the Daguerreotype.

Don

Donny - I found this while looking for other stuff... thought I would share it with you...

 

Jim, thanks for the research, the matte (decorative copper/brass piece) that is applied directly against the photo is very similar and I did some looking at more old photos yesterday and found a couple more matte's with the basic same design and shape and I believe all of them were dated around 1858, so perhaps the date of my photo might be getting narrowed down to that time frame, give or take a year or two.

Don

Don...have you done any title/deed research on the property? That may give you some idea who may have owned that land, but that does not necessarily mean this man lived there. He could have given that photo to a young lady ;) who lived there....he sure was a handsome fella! Looks to be somewhere about mid-20's...(Maybe in the age range of 18-25)

Can't wait to see the outcome! I hope I can find something like that in the future!!!
Annmarie

Don...have you done any title/deed research on the property? That may give you some idea who may have owned that land, but that does not necessarily mean this man lived there. He could have given that photo to a young lady ;) who lived there....he sure was a handsome fella! Looks to be somewhere about mid-20's...(Maybe in the age range of 18-25)

Can't wait to see the outcome! I hope I can find something like that in the future!!!
Annmarie

Annmarie, once I am done with the restoration I will pursue all avenues on the ID or at minimum narrow down the date. Thanks to Jim (MT) and then me later finding a few more similar matte frames it is looking like the late 1850's for a time frame. If so, there is an outside chance, that the photographer might have a mark on the back of the plate obscured now by corrosion, and what is interesting there, a Daguerreotype Photographer was located in the closet town at that time frame and his last name is the same as mine.   (But would not be related)

Today I cut a new piece of glass for the frame (took 9 tries until I got a piece that was right or did not break). I also restored the matte frame and I cleaned and removed corrosion on the outside frame. So all is ready now except for that minor detail of restoring the photo!

I am waiting for a few hopefully helpful ideas to come in during the next few days and in the mean time I am still researching as many avenues as I can think of gaining more knowledge on how to go forward with the final step, restoring the photograph.

Attached is a photo of the before and after of the matte copper plate that I worked on today.  After two days of soaking in distilled water, I put it in a solution bath of distilled water and ammonia, mixture 50/50.  To my delight I literally watched the solution start turning blue as the cuprous chlorides started to dissolve.  An occasional use of cotton swabs and a little bit of Dremel polishing and I was very satisfied with the results.  Considering the damage the corrosion caused to the metal, I think it came out fairly decent.

Don

OMG...that turned out beautifully!!! Great Job You DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for that person having the same last name as yours...don't be surprised if you find out they are like some 8th cousin to you...it is a small world afterall ;) And if it turns out you are related...how awesome would that be, that you found a piece of work done by a relative many years before!!!

We ALL wait PATIENCELY for the final results...you are doing an awesome job!!!

If you would like assistance further down the road (i.e., census records) ... let me know...or maybe even newspaper articles (might be an advertisement for this person photo studio!!!)....be happy to look!
Annmarie

Each updated photo is better than the last its realy exciting, seeing the process!  Can't wait for more!

Cool find for sure
Chris

Each updated photo is better than the last its realy exciting, seeing the process!  Can't wait for more!

I totally agree with Mental Granny.  Don, this post is extraordinary...Banner!!

 ;) RR

Don, that is just awesome.  The photo itself, the cleanup of the frame, the works.  Just tremendous.

On the page that someone posted
( http://infoshare1.princeton.edu/lib...line_ex/dags/conserve/electro.shtml ) it mentions that they use "ammonium hydroxide" - Is that the same thing as plain ol' ammonia?  And then they put it through several "solvent baths" - but they don't say what solvent they use.  

I wonder if that solvent they use is something that makes the ammonia/ammonium hydroxide inert - to stop any further chemical reaction.  You might wanna find a chemist - surely there's someone here on TNet! -  that could put his/her 2¢ in on that.  

Something that occurs to me about using ammonia - there's a "natural dye" mixture that some weavers have used that involves using ammonia (and water) with a foot of copper pipe placed in it.  Depending on the strength of the ammonia, and how long it sits,  the copper actually dissolves - making a spiffy dye for wool or cotton.  But the copper dissolves!

Now, what the weaver does to make the dye stuff environmentally safe to pour out (sorta neutralize the ammonia), is simply add an egg to the solution and stir it in.  When it turns black, it's safe to pour down the drain or wherever.  Maybe some kind of solution using an egg stirred into water would be the equivalent to that unnamed "solvent" - ?  Dunno.  Maybe experiment first using older pennies?  

Anyway, awesome find, and I'm really looking forward to seeing the transformation,

HH
Nan

[Rules to live by:1. Don't sweat the small stuff.2. It's ALL small stuff.]

Don't use older pennies.  Send all your older pennies to me.  I will send you in return an equivalent weight of copper pipe scraps from work to use for a test.   ;)  Or ask a plumber or electrician friend for some of their scraps. 

Man...that is truly a banner find and your doing an incredible job of restoration as well.  Kudos to you on that!  I will be sure to watch this post!!  Thanks for a thrilling read.

Baldingboy

Don, that is just awesome. The photo itself, the cleanup of the frame, the works. Just tremendous.

On the page that someone posted
( http://infoshare1.princeton.edu/lib...line_ex/dags/conserve/electro.shtml ) it mentions that they use "ammonium hydroxide" - Is that the same thing as plain ol' ammonia?  And then they put it through several "solvent baths" - but they don't say what solvent they use.  

I wonder if that solvent they use is something that makes the ammonia/ammonium hydroxide inert - to stop any further chemical reaction. You might wanna find a chemist - surely there's someone here on TNet! -  that could put his/her 2¢ in on that.  

Something that occurs to me about using ammonia - there's a "natural dye" mixture that some weavers have used that involves using ammonia (and water) with a foot of copper pipe placed in it.  Depending on the strength of the ammonia, and how long it sits,  the copper actually dissolves - making a spiffy dye for wool or cotton.  But the copper dissolves!

Now, what the weaver does to make the dye stuff environmentally safe to pour out (sorta neutralize the ammonia), is simply add an egg to the solution and stir it in.  When it turns black, it's safe to pour down the drain or wherever.  Maybe some kind of solution using an egg stirred into water would be the equivalent to that unnamed "solvent" - ?  Dunno.  Maybe experiment first using older pennies?  

Anyway, awesome find, and I'm really looking forward to seeing the transformation,

HH
Nan

Nan, it is amazing how what you think is a simple find turns out to be something special, another one of those relics that I will most likely never find another one again, so I am making the most out of doing the best I can on this restoration.

I posted the Princeton web info you refer to and I am sure the Ammonion Hydroxide is just plain ole household Ammonia. What the site does not explain is the amount of proportions.

You are correct on Ammonia dissolving the copper chlorides, that is exactly what happened on the mat copper plate and outside case. The 50/50 mixture of distilled water and Ammonia, literally dissolved the blue encrustations away into the solution which turned blue in color.

My fear is that if I do this on the photo itself that the dissolved copper chlorides might adhere/stain to the good portions of the photo, turning it blueish. I don't think that will happen, but I will be overcautious on how I proceed.  I did read that it is possible that where the copper corrosion is the thickest that a ugly black spot might be left when removing the blue/green spot, hopefully that will not happen, or not to a great extent.

On Sunday the portrait is getting a bath!    I feel confident the distilled water bath is the next step, hopefully stabilizing any corrosion before I proceed with any procedure after that, which right now I am thinking of a 4 parts distilled water to 1 part Ammonia bath.  If that goes well but does not remove enough of the copper chlorides (blue/green junk) I will then increase the Ammonia to 50/50 as I had with the copper mat plate and outside cover.

I did some research on the owner of the property in the mid 19th century and have two possible surnames, LOL, one is Smith and the other Scull.  Scull had a son who would have been in his late 20's in the late 1850's, but wow, all conjecture only rough research by me so far.    Afterall, this could be the dropped photo of anybody, or even dropped by someone who lived there it could be the husband of a daughter, and then the research gets harder.

Don

Tried to clean it up keeping it natural

You know...when I was messing with the photo and then saw what two others did with it...it almost seems to me that this guy had BLUE EYES!!!!! I can see the color in the eyes....well, I can!! 

Just thought I'd mention that
HH,
Annmarie

At noon today I immersed the photo in distilled water and immediately took a photo for a "before " shot, since I have read that some Daguerreotypes actually improve 20-50% after being immersed in distilled water.

However, the reason I am doing it is to neutralize the corrosion taking place.  I believe I will keep it in this water for 24 hours. Unless I suspect something going astray.

Next Step, will be critical in the restoration, that will be a possible soak in Ammonia and distilled water.  For that I am going to go very slowly, and just first expose a non viewing area to the solution, an area where the mat plate covers the portrait, where most of the copper chlorides are anyway............

Have not done any more research on Who it might be or the photographer, that will have to wait.

Don

LOOKS GOOD I AM KEEPING MY FINGERS CROSSED!

Note: that use of Ammonia and water (Ammonium hydroxide) can remove the silver oxides. Will be interesting to see how this comes out.

Wow this is an awesome post! Definately banner material. If anyone can clean that up to perfect it's you Don! Good luck!

Note: that use of Ammonia and water (Ammonium hydroxide) can remove the silver oxides. Will be interesting to see how this comes out.

Yes, that is why I will be trying it.

Don

It is really amazing to watch how this is coming along!  What a great find!
Baggins

Today was "D" Day  (Do it Day)      I submerged the photo into Ammonia and Water mixture, I was greatly concerned about whether the copper chloride would adhere to the portrait as it was dissolved by the mixture,  At first there was a problem, I was a bit cautious intially only submerged about 1/4" of it in the solution. Well, after a few hours of doing it and rotating the sides into the solution, I noticed the solution "wicked up" into the portrait area, and left a blue scum line!!

So, I made the decision to go all the way and completely submerged the photo into the ammonia and water  (2.5 to 1 mixture).

That was the answer, I am not done with this portion of the conservation but almost. I am showing photos of how it looked when I started , then at one hour, then at two hours. 
I am now at almost four hours of soaking and 99% of all the blue is gone.  Once that is off, I will soak in distilled water till I am ready to do the electrolysis portion, hoping it clears up some of the foggy appearance.

I plan on trying the electrolysis sometime late tomorrow or Thursday morning, must go out pingin in the AM :>   The darkness on the photos is from using a different light source for the last two pics.

Don

It is really comming along great, this is one of the posts I am really excited to get to read each update!

Outstanding... your photodocumentary of this project is awesome Don!

Outstanding... your photodocumentary of this project is awesome Don!

IF this comes out pretty decent, considering how bad it is/was, I will group together in one reply a complete procedure...

I could almost get some enjoyment out of sending the before and final after to the Conservator who quoted 500-1000, with no guarantee of being decent. Also, he questioned whether it was a Daguerreotype, thought perhaps it was a unusual paper one. ;)  Nope

Don

Don,

I finally heard back from my photo restoration friend, and he has looked at your post as a guest.  He said that in order to spare the expense of a high-dollar restoration, your method will be pretty good--and will still allow further work to be done on the photo in the future should you decide.  He only cautioned me about the importance of not leaving it in the Ammonia too long.  

-Will

I have to say this is one of the most interesting finds I have ever seen, and watching this process unfold has kept me checking back. I can't wait to see the final outcome!

Don,

I finally heard back from my photo restoration friend, and he has looked at your post as a guest.  He said that in order to spare the expense of a high-dollar restoration, your method will be pretty good--and will still allow further work to be done on the photo in the future should you decide.  He only cautioned me about the importance of not leaving it in the Ammonia too long.  

-Will

Thanks Will, well at least the soak portion is over, the portrait is now in distilled water till my next step, which is the electrolysis. After I detect tomorrow, I will then come up with some type of setup to hang the portrait vertically and hang the anode (mercury dime) in front of the portrait, centered as much as possible, then garner enough courage to do this step!

Now, I hope the electrolysis works.

Attached photo is when it came out of case and as it is right now.

Don

[Rules to live by:1. Don't sweat the small stuff.2. It's ALL small stuff.]

Wow, it's really looking great, for something in the ground for so many years.  Best of luck on the next step!

Wow fantastic, it really looks great!

You know Don, one of the most amazing things about finding this portrait is that there may be literally No other surviving portraits of this person.  As is frequently the case with folks, very little is left behind by them.  Heck, there may not even be any journals, handwriting, records, signed belongings, or anything else.  The way I see it, this portrait could be the only surviving remnant of that specific person's life--and all the rest is now long gone and forgotten.  I can't imagine the experience of looking at this item--such an expensive and beloved item for the owner--for the first time after all the intervening years.  I think that's why this find is so great for me to see posted here.

Have you given much thought to how you're going to do the electrolysis?  I assume you're going to do it very slowly?


Regards,


Buckleboy     

It's been awhile since I've visited this string.

WOW...that is coming along nicely Don! I can see that it's copper now that it's out in the open so I'm sure that you already know that it's a daguerrotype.

I don't know how far I'd take it before I'd call it as good as it's gonna get though....but it's a heckuva difference.

I agree with BuckleBoy also on it being pretty slim that you'll find out who this person was. I have family portraits of my Great-Great Grandfather and his family, to include TEN children, taken sometime between 1905-1910. I can recognize my Great Grandfather (who was about 24 or so in the pic) and my Great-Great Uncle who was about 8 or 10, but hanged if I know who anybody else is and they're kin to me!

Maybe you can narrow it down some through researching county/township land records.

HH,
-SgtSki

[BIG HIGH FIVERS ON THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]

BIG HIGH FIVERS ON THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
staring at the past and hes looking into the future UNREAL
cool factor of 10
i threw a bump to the banner everyone else fell free  ;)

Don,
That photo is looking great. Good luck on your electrolysis step. What a neat find.
-MM-

I TOTALLY AGREE...BANNER!!!!!!!!!

Don, that is coming out nicely...hubby said the guy kinda' resembles JESSIE JAMES...wouldn't it be awesome if it was!!! WOW....but I doubt it. (but it's a nice thought anywhohow!)

Beautiful Job you have done!!!
Annmarie

Maybe they are waiting for the final results before they put it on the BANNER? It deffinately would get more people pumped for this hobby!

Maybe they are waiting for the final results before they put it on the BANNER? It deffinately would get more people pumped for this hobby!

I believe you may be correct (on the banner)....and I hope it gets banner!!!

I would love to find something like that....maybe we will get lucky at the Pipsico hunt ;)...wishful thinking I guess!

Don, can't wait for the next photo update!
Annmarie

Nice frame! Cngrats!

[BANNER TIME!]

Post #100

BANNER TIME!  

WTG Don!