Basic signs and symbols you have found

I don't know if this is the proper place to post this or not but it is important in my ventures  " The Bible--Charles Kenworthy's books --- The Rocks Begin To Speak, ( Very good Bibliography,  ) LaVan Martineau,--- Of Men and Gold, I know that part of if not all is a rewrite --- and yes I have Gale R. Rhoades book from the 1980 era, I got mine in 1982, Waybill To Lost Spanish Mines And Treasures, -- and  Turtles Lead To Treasure. All of these books have helped along with Obsolete Spanish and Portuguese units of Measurements, a study of Viking Mooring holes,their  ships - Length - Width - Location of their Cargo Holes, have you ever wondered about using your minds eye and think about rowing a small flat bottom ship down the South Canadian River with up to 25 tons of cargo, did they have teepee poles, hides, for building shelter when they camped for a while did they raise the ground in a circle ( as the Indians did ) to keep out the rain, wind, cold. Theres several horshoe bends and most that I've seen have symbols on the N.E outside corner, that holds true for River's Streams, Brooks, What i think is that a horseshoe has the same shape as a tunnel so they were marked. That's my theory anyway and they will venture out away from the bend I have found them five miles away. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest

You raise some good questions , and lend some good reference material as well.Much of what you are seeking the answers to has had most of us pulling out hair for years. LOL
maybe doing this together will sort some of it out.

Or these strange thing a ma giggies? These even come with a DEATH TRAP...

Ed T

Hi!  The Natives of old used to use these big boulders as a community type metate.  In other words, the women would gather and this is where they would grind the corn or whatever grain they had, as well as make pemmican.  That's what made the "dishes" in the rock.  Hope that helps you!
Twilla

tertiaryjim!!!   THE HELMET IS SOMEWHAT LIKE A ROMAN CENTURIANS, BUT WITHOUT THE PLUMMAGE,, I'M NOT GIVING UP,, UNTIL SOMEBODY ELSE SEE'S WHAT I SEE!! HA! td   AND WELCOME TO T-NET TWILLA!!!  

the front white stone is a dog head.

Tesoro Dog  Sorry I didn't reply sooner but things have been hectic the last few days. YES I see much of what your pointing out. The original picture was taken from a long distance and not of the quality I would prefer to see on Treasurenet .Made an attempt to get out there last week but ,as expected the mud was so bad that I couldn't get close to my parking area and the hike in would be dangerous. Will have to wait till late spring when the land dries a bit.  Thanks for the suggestions.  Jim

Best to stay safe.
I have said many times ...
No treasure is worth a life.

SURE THING JIMMY!!  WOULD LIKE TO TRY TO HELP YOU WITH THIS ONE!!  td

Clay,
Try taking a few pics of this from a frontal view a little bit back from the face.
See if there are marks on the walls around it.
Look on either side or above.
I have an overhang that was fortified, they rolled and fitted large stones across the opening.
All the signs are in these rocks.

here are a couple pix of that fortified camp site I spoke of in the last post.

Old Dog, you have some of the most interesting pics around.  NOBODY could claim this fortified site happened naturally.......................except maybe SWR and I've got him/her on "ignore" anyway. 

Was this site close to a working prospect?  Just curious and I'd understand if you want to kept that info close to your vest.   Gathering those stones and arranging them took a h--- of a lot of WORK. 

Please keep sharing your sign finds with us cause I learn something from every one.  I wish I had something like this to share with others on this thread, but I haven't been working this area of search / research before.  I saw a lot of profiles and trail signs from the Interstate highway system in the West and Southwest while truckdriving in the early 1990s, but was not able to do any followups.

in old dogs pics of the shelters, i think who ever made it
chipped the ledge, and let the rocks drop down, and maybe
moved a few, for better cover, i dont think they moved the
rocks, from someplace else to that place, they used brain
not much brawn, they used nature to their advantage
i could be wrong, but thats what, it looks like

There is one place inside this that goes back almost 20 feet under that overhang.
inside there are places where parts of it were actually walled off to section the interior into rooms.

Shortstack,
this is along the main mule trail coming from the Gunnison River going South along CO141 to Gateway.
Can't see it from the hwy. it is back about 3/4 of a mile on top of the canyon.
It is about 2 miles from the Crossbow site.

The small Bird sign is among some of the signs that are on these facial stones.

The natives frequently made shelters using natural overhangs with rocks stacked out in front.  The location pictured above smacks of a hunting campsite or some such temporary shelter.  It would be interesting to know what was down the hill below this site.  Smaller, more hidden sites were used as food caches near travel routes, usually with much smaller rocks mortered in place to try to seal out animals.  The larger, more secure sites near water evolved into permanent dwellings.

Not long ago, my exploring buddy and I found a similar but much smaller site not far from the old Butterfield Trail high up in a side canyon in the Cookes Range NE of Deming, NM, an active ambush area for the Apache back in the dangerous times.  The few front rocks were hastily stacked - just enough room behind them for a couple men on their bellies.  Several pieces of flattened lead and a handful of corroded 45-70 casings that we found behind the stacked rocks told the story.  No campsite here, but the location of a firefight for these guys - possibly cavalry.  No other artifacts or bones were found, so hopefully they walked away.

 

Oh, one thing... If the rock(s) out front do not lend themselves well to chiseled signs because of type of rock , would they revert back to creating shapes from stacked rock or would they just not leave signs?

IDK clay, i think its just a shelter, could be something close by though

old dog would know

Wondering if folks thought this might be Spanish or something older.
The writing.

Here is a scribbled up shot of the front view.
First in red, the trail in and out
Second in blue, note there are no large stones littering the face of the hill in front of the fortification.
I believe they were all collected and lined up in front of the overhang.
Any place else out here when you have a thin overhang like this there are large stones laying about that shows the decay of the ledge in question.
Not here, I have found no other large pile or place they may have neen moved to

Kim,
Some of the writing shows up a little better in the negative.
I'm not sure what it is, I know it isn't natural .
Sure would like to see it clearer.

    good stuff

Thanks Extractor,
and welcome.

Will have to wait for spring. Too dangerous to get to it now. Thanks

Thanks Extractor,
and welcome.

 
I never caught this thread before  It's awsome !   I 'm out in the desert a fair amount and can ad some pictures sometimes as I spot stuff.   Extractor.

found a cool girraffe and a r and y in center. brent

We would enjoy seeing what you have especially if there are s/s,
but it's quite ok if you want to just ask a question.
Lots of good folks here who want nothing more than to help.

I am off to work guys see you Sunday

Hey, Desertmoons:
    I've cropped your photo from above and marked a couple of things for your consideration.  What do you think?

i think the oriental writing is another deer.

i think the oriental writing is another deer.

Maybe, but if you zoom in on the photo, you can see it seems to be the shape of a symbol and not an animal.   

I have to chuckle..we are all staying away from that stuff on the right. I just do not know..that left hand figure /symbol/writing  is morphing  for me and will not settle down.. Both good ideas.

I have to chuckle..we are all staying away from that stuff on the right. I just do not know..that left hand figure /symbol/writing  is morphing  for me and will not settle down.. Both good ideas.

even after I swapped it over I had trouble with it.
Think I'll wait for a clear shot.

Ok, Desertmoons, here are my ideas for the right side.  At first, I thought the 3 figures on the light colored stone in front were "RR7" , but after zooming in, the center figure  kinda breaks up and looks more like 2 code marks.    The first IS an "R" and the 3rd IS a "7".  Further right is a man-figure, an elephant head, and another "R".  Those black numbers and figure looks like they MAY be late graffiti.

From what I can see there is too much hidden on the right,
by brush and stones to come to any serious conclusion.

Kim,
If I may suggest once you go back,
clear out the brush and stuff and try to get as much of the wall in one clear picture as you can.
If needs be, catch the left and right in seperate pictures.

what r these two lookn at?

May be they are looking at the same thing,, this hand and finger are pointing at,, IS IT A HEART!!  td

First off, I would like to offer my sincerest apologies for interrupting the flow of this thread by the removal of my previous postings. As an otherwise rational guy, sometimes even I have an irrational moment. Ok, on with the fun! What you'll see here is another fine example of a stump marker. This one will differ slightly from the ones previously posted. Can anyone tell me how? (besides OD).

The flat top of the stump is suggestive. I am no expert. and when it comes to trees I know nothing.

 But i would be thinking this is a place to take a sighting or measure from. I would also be half expecting to see a...mmm... "*" or "+"  type sign around. Spindly and wiggly.

If  a spindly is found perhaps spend a little time around the immediate area -  oh say..100 feet radius - to get a lot of further directions.

The left upward branch seems to be unusually kinked.  If true, the I would take that first as a confirmation that it all means something, and secondly as a directional.
  
No special knowledge here. Just speculation.

DM,

Your ability to think outside of the box is Extraordinary! All great answers! Now, what specifically does the "flat top" tell us? Can it date the marker?

Clay

cut with saw not ax.

Nice! And how can we use that lil' piece of information to date the marker?

Clay

Find out when 2-man crosscut saws were invented.

Question:  When is a stump just a stump?  The growth in your photo seems to be made up of regular trees;  not the small, long lived ones in the mountains of the west and southwest.  What specifics are there that make you believe it's a code marker?  Or anything more than a survey marker for a property line?

Shortstack,

The property, on which, this alligator juniper tree (stump) surrounded by mesquite was photographed has been in the care of one owner since the late 1800's with no transfers in ownership. The same owner, for 135 years. And the nearest property line is a few miles away. Couple that with who would carry a two person saw on top of a hilltop (elevation 6100 ft) in the middle of nowhere and you have a list of possible answers. Now, by using the hours and hours of research you have conducted on various activities to have taken place in the area, and your list grows smaller until you're left with one or two logical choices. Either it was some guy looking for firewood, on a hilltop and he wasn't cold enough to take the whole tree or someone was trying to guide you through the wilderness. My bet, based on my hours of research here locally, I'm going with the latter.

Clay

Shortstack,

The property, on which, this alligator juniper tree (stump) surrounded by mesquite was photographed has been in the care of one owner since the late 1800's with no transfers in ownership. The same owner, for 135 years. And the nearest property line is a few miles away. Couple that with who would carry a two handed saw on top of a hilltop (elevation 6100 ft) in the middle of nowhere and you have a list of possible answers. Now, by using the hours and hours of research you have conducted on various activities to have taken place in the area, and your list grows smaller until you're left with one or two logical choices. Either it was some guy looking for firewood, on a hilltop and he wasn't cold enough to take the whole tree or someone was trying to guide you through the wilderness. My bet, based on my hours of research here locally, I'm going with the latter.

Clay

   Hey, you've convinced me.  Good luck.

S/S

Sorry, I know that seemed a bit terse. I'm just a guy trying to make may through this the best way I can. I realize I will have to prove my mettle in order to be considered a valid source of information and assistance. This is all part of the process. Thank you.

Clay

S/S

Sorry, I know that seemed a bit terse. I'm just a guy trying to make may through this the best way I can. I realize I will have to prove my mettle in order to be considered a valid source of information and assistance. This is all part of the process. Thank you.
Clay

I didn't take your response as a smarta--  comment.  I read it as a tongue-in-cheek response.........especially the "he wasn't cold enough to take the whole tree."   

PLEEEassseeeeee don't  put me in the same category as SWR, lamar, and one or two others.  I am totally open minded with the subjects of Spanish, Templars, and KGC signs, marks, etc.  Those closed minded self appointed "experts" are a pain in the ASS.  One should listen to ALL points of information and opinions and then sift through and take what he or she feels is useful and ignore the rest.  But DON'T bad mouth somebody who presents an idea or a vision from a different angle.  Sometimes, those "different" ideas turn out to be RIGHT ON.      nuff said. 

Yes! Exactly. I couldn't have put it better myself.

Clay

To close out the stump item, it was OD that actually should get the credit for the answer. (Hence, me asking him not to chime in.) When I showed it to him, he was the one that pointed out to me that the extremities had been sawed off, compared to chopped off.

So ask yourself, is it possible that persons of the Spanish-era carried wood saws? Sure. But it is a matter of cost, time and/or money. What would have been the likelyhood of getting your two person saw back down the blacksmith for sharpening in the 1700's? Wouldn't it be easier to re-sharpen your ax out in the field? I'm not stating that it was impossible to re-sharpen a saw in the field, but given the circumstances, it would have been less practical.

Now, fast forward 125-150 years or so. Metallurgical technology has improved, making the saw a better field tool allowing you to use and re-use many times more before having to resharpen it. So it is the difference in the practical usage of these two tools that allows for the speculation of KGC involvement in this area. But that leads into a different thing... More on that to follow.

Clay

I know, I'm being a thread hog. But I had to get up early this morning to drive my better half into work, so here I am. This next photo remains somewhat of a mystery. I have a few relative ideas, but nothing concrete just yet. Normally, I would post it unless I was more certain, but I'm in the sharing mood. Sometimes I think it's a "V". Sometimes I think it's a "U". Somtimes I think it's a "hole nearby" sign. And sometimes I think it's a "U-shaped" pointer with an arrow on the upper right. It's all alone by itself on a massive boulder. All suggestions are welcome...

Clay

S/S

Sorry, I know that seemed a bit terse. I'm just a guy trying to make may through this the best way I can. I realize I will have to prove my mettle in order to be considered a valid source of information and assistance. This is all part of the process. Thank you.

Clay

Part of WHAT process?  Are you itching to become the new Dign or Rangler with two-bit sound bites leading to treasure vaults, quick and simple?  I've known the best of the best 'KGC' researchers for years, brilliant people who have dedicated their lives at the expense of their pedestrian money grubbing careers.  People who have spent these years relentlessly following clues in the field and educating themselves in the world's classic intellectual disciplines.  People who know more about mathematics, geometry, history, Baconian and other codes, human psychology and other things necessary to even begin trying to unravel the secrets at hand than but a handful of the Twitter generation cluttering our instant gratification culture.  These folks have no interest in wasting their time seeking internet forum recognition - they're too busy with reality.  I'm not trying to discourage you, but to encourage you.  If you truly want to 'make your way through this', then you need to realize that it will become a life-altering experience, not a hobby or a get rich quick deal.

Springfield,

I'm quite sure we are speaking of the same thing, just with different language. Something as simple as fixing a bowl of cereal or using the bathroom could be referred to as a process. There was no negative connotation meant by what I said. By all means, the context of my statement was never meant to potentially offend anyones life's work either. With regards to the establishment of my own validity... It is my hope that through hard work that I may be recognized as more than a member of the nintendo generation and be excepted as an ally by persons of your stature. This is only evidenced by the need for overexplaination on most of the items I have posted. I fully understand and appreciate how "green" I may appear to you. To a certain extent you are correct and I have no issue with that. I've never had anything handed to me in my life and I have no further expectations of that happening now or in the future. To that point, should you need further explaination of my supposed theories and/or actions, it would be greatly appreciated if it was conducted off-to-the-side rather than in the middle of a thread, created by Old Dog, meant to provide a more centralized location for novices such as myself to learn and share. As always, your time and consideration is appreciated.

Clay

..... It is my hope that through hard work that I may be recognized as more than a member of the nintendo generation and be excepted as an ally by persons of your stature ....

I want to make it clear that I have no stature or desire for same re this topic.

Then specifically, what is the basis for your scrutiny? I have never presented myself as an expert. In fact, this is the one place that I should be allowed to be wrong/incorrect. If you make no mistakes, you will cease to learn and grow.

Clay

Couldn't have said it better myself. 

Remind me, again, what this line of questioning was supposed to accomplish with regard to the greater good? The greater good being defined in this particular instance by the furthering education of those individuals, deemed as beginners, participating herein.

Clay

Clay,
   You should be aware that all a person needs for keeping a 2-man crosscut saw sharp is a 6 inch file;  either mill or bas tard.  With that file, a person could / can keep that saw sharp and ready for ever.......unless the saw broke.  Also, there was / is a 1-man crosscut saw that has the same tooth arrangement  as the 2-man.  The single man is about 4 feet long with a large wooden handle on one end and the blade rounded off on the other.
     I have a friend who told me once that his Dad use to tell him that a person could use a 6 inch file to keep ANY edged tool sharp. 
     So, your trees could have been sawn by one man setting up a cache of personal wealth, too.

Shortstack,

Sir... Thank you. That is a very valid point and should be considered by all as an addition to their notes. I was sure to add it myself. Can anyone think of some other useful information concerning the potential use of stump markers to mark trails? Size, shape, pattern, etc. Or does anyone have any pictures they would like to share?

Clay

clay, my dad told me that in cutting timber with the two man saw, the company hired one man that did nothing but keep the saws sharp. he was known as the saw filer and he was right there in the woods doin' his duty. i have a set of those tools- lacking one piece. if i knew how to post i would show them. i would imagine the idea came from the past. =tenclaw=

10claw,

Also great information. If you were to post pictures of the equipment on the forum somewhere, I would be sure to look at them. Among other things, I have always enjoyed the "why" factor when it comes to tool design. Any thoughts on the pecked "U" or "V" I posted?

Clay

Clay:
     Looks like there might be somemore figures in that stone.  There appears to be a straight line coming from under the heel of your thumb and running horizontally to the right.  There appears to be a circular shape running from beneath your index finger, between the 1st and 2nd knuckles, out and up.
     How about it?  Anymore figures being hidden by your hand?   

I didn't mean to cover up anything. I placed my hand next to it to give me a size reference. The rock only appeared to have just the one S/S. I'll be back out there this Sunday. I'll take more photos.

Clay

clay, i can see the horizontal line that shortstack mentiomed. just rough guessing, i would say the horizontal line is old and the V is new, or newer. inverting the color shows the same thing.

Hey guys,

The girlfirend and I went out and found some really interesting stuff today. I think I may have found my first duck (?). Before you ask, the entire surface of the boulder was checked thoroughly for tool marks. Nada. The angle is kinda off because the current growth of the vegetation and the incline wouldn't allow for a better angle. Although, it seems as though any way I looked at it, the mouth appeared to be open.

Imagine me in the middle of nowhere trying to remember what the duck symbol means. You know, cause I had the "other" notebook with me. Anyhow, I digress. Can anyone help me verify what I think it is? If it's a rock, then it's a rock. But if it's a duck, well I've got more work to do. Thanks...

Clay

Definitely a pointer!!
Direction to the left,

But...
If it is a duck ... Need to look for another sign or reverse direction,
Your trail will be evident.

Thank you for the info on the pointer. More on that to follow.

The other day, I posted a picture of a what I thought to be a stump marker. Well, while I was out in the area this past weekend, I found another example. This one has no "leading" braches. It just sticks about 4ft straight in the air. I put myself, however goofy, in the photo to show the height and the girth of the stump. In my boots, on a good day, I am 6' 1.5" and 205lbs. This stump in particular was in a clearing and showed the area and elevation quite well.

I am rapidly gathering evidence to show (prove?) the existance and frequent use of stump markers in trails. More on that to come as well.

Clay

Clay,
There are some possible s/s on your pointer.
okey dokey

That's good to hear Clay,
I have been preaching stumps for years.
They play an integral part in many of these trails, and are the one most ignored sign out there.
They add stability and continuity that in many cases is lost when stumps are left out of the equation.

maybe a horse head.

All are tremendous conclusions and are very possible. In my dedication to the resolution, or I guess, formulation of this stump topic, I will be back out at this site this weekend. I have photo's of eight individual stumps. 8 of ? would be the question. Any of you out there have a suggestion on how I can show proof of concept without revealing the location? See the dilemma? Of course realizing I could have a detailed satelite photo outlining all of the stumps, with bearing and distance between, and certain people may still be skeptical. Anyhow, I have a ton of information on the stumps I have photo's of and may have to wait until after I finish working this area to publish it. We shall see.

Clay

Clay, you found a duck.  Now, what does that mean?  I missed the duck symbols'  meanings.   
Anyway, what do you think of my ideas of your photo.   Hey, did Paul Bunyon pee-pee on your stump?

Thank you everyone for your feed back on that wtritng i found. When get down that way later this year I will get better pics. It is just too indefinite right now.

Besides the great insight everyone posted on clays trailmaker..I wanted to point out something.

The horse head is a horse head..and it is attached to a body carrying a heavy load and not too happy about it i think. Horse is kind of bunched up in its legs and haunches.  Steep or hard trail ? Good for animals though.


But it is the rectangled figure(s) to the left of the horse..that and the 4 balls really stood out to me. In that rectangled figure there are some carvings and other information that I bet would be good to know!

Especially notice  there are some straight lines or a partial rectangle involved with in that set of carvings/figures/symbols in the yellowed rectangle area. Hard to make out the carvings..could be a cross..or a curvy x  in one area..and can not make out what it is in the other symbolic carving.


Have you a close up of that area?

Shortstack,

Well with regards to the duck, all I could remember at the time was to go in the opposite direction it was facing. With all of the rest, I have studied Spanish S/S, but until I saw this I had no field experience with them. As most of you know, I have had a habit of chasing drill holes and stumps up until this point. I wasn't Paul Bunyon, it was me. JK!  The information I have been using on ducks was published, I think, in the John Sites thread.

I do know this... DM may be on to something because the terrain in this area is well beyond steep and hard to travel. I will be going back to this site this weekend with notes on all of your suggestions. If there is something you would like to see more of let me know and I get a close up for you. There is a lot more in signs/markers with regards to this particular site I would love to share. I just don't feel like I have all of the pieces yet. I hope to finalize my research and begin sharing it with all of you very soon.

Thank you all for your input.

Clay

Hi, how good are you at decyphering?  This is in a shallow cave on the trail.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Holy Cow! What a treat! I am horrible at decyphering. I have trouble tying my shoes, but I will enjoy studying this. Thank you for the post.

Clay

Mi amigo Don Jose!

Welcome to the fray.
It appears as though the pannel directly to the right was painted as well at one time.
It looks to have been scrubbed, there is paint residue left.
The very first thing I do with a copy of any panell like this is to make a negative.
You see more.
This may shine some light on the subject.

Clay:
    Looks like DM's pack horse / mule is heading in the opposite direction to where the duck is looking which fits with what you said about ducks.

     Those "duck eggs"  and the triangle are all too well formed to have "just happened" in nature.  They must have some direct meaning for the overall puzzle.

Clay:
     I updated my marked up photo with DM's packhorse and shadow padre.  The padre turned into a shadow man's bust that looks a little like an Indian profile.     And the horse / mule is walking on a ledge or well defined trail.

good morning all:  One of the first things that I do is to reduce a color photograph into the three primary colors then go from there. This is how I managed to finally find the giant Sun sign up at Tayopa. One primary cut through the folaige nicely revealing it.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

If you would Sir, please oblige me for a moment. Before I begin to even ponder the meaning of all of the symbols together. I wanted to take a guess at some of the individual symbols themselves. Some of the items I didn't label, i.e. the crosses, because it was the others I wanted to make sure I was close on. This piece of work is amazing to say the least. Thank you for your time.

Clay

Well i will give it a try just for fun and just  because you are  - The Tayopa Man!  

Upper left a flying bird. So you are not there yet. Just my own thought on that.

The 3 crosses seem unusually lined up to me..but have not seen many crosses. . Perhaps up a mountain to get to the final destination?  The crosses get bigger as you go up. Perhaps laying a line along those 3 crosses will give you a directional.

The jagged yellow feels like topographical info to me. Perhaps follow the trail along a river in a canyon? One where tapirs live? Or known for tapirs? Else if not tapir..those mammals down there that spend a lot of time in swamp and marshes.
Or perhaps...this trail you will find food - lots of tapirs around. Or..is there a mountain or area around named after tapirs?
That tapir head toward lower right of the panel..well must be there for a purpose.

The stuff below the jagged yellow  that I am thinking of as fluff or disguise..though it could be more topo stuff.

The lower two birds..the bigger one  is a symbolic representation of a bird I've seen before i am sure in Pueblo Indian iconography.

Anyway looks to me like momma bird is bending over its neck to feed the fledgling down below it. The fledgling has wide open mouth.  Not sure exactly what that means but i have seen that sort of thing associated where i "think" a mine is.

So.... you have a ways to go, the trail may be steep and also go along a river in a rather steep canyon. After the canyon..you will be much closer..perhaps within a mile of your destination or much closer than that! It may be a steep climb at that point.

Look for momma bird feeding baby(ies) when you get closer..they may show up again.

Oh that bottom big bird...could it be plucking feathers or blood from its breast? That sounds familiar some how. some...legend or perhaps old metaphoric tale.

One other thing all the jagged stuff  in total, in outline  below the middle cross also reminds me of a boat or ark in over all shape..an old old boat. It also looks like a pack animal to me. So though the road to the heavenly reward on high may be rough and jagged..it is doable for animals.

Well..as i said just for fun. I would not use these thoughts as a guide!

Randy,

That is an awesome pig ! Look closer and see if his eyes are open.
Animals such as Pigs, Lions, Bears etc...will look towards a treasure site.
If the eyes are closed you are there.

Thom

Hi Thom.  After reading your post above, I am looking back through some photographs my partner and I took on our many sign-hunting adventures.  We don't know if this intricate carving is a bear, a dog, or some other animal and it's not easy to tell whether his eyes are open or closed.  Any observations you can make on it will be sincerely appreciated.
~Jay~

hey texas, i'm not too sharp on this but the left ear does seem to be a pointer ( maybe)

silver to the right.

hadji009,

May I speak for the rest of us, in the unknowledgable side of the house, and ask how you came to that conclusion?

Clay

there is a five on the head and bear is listening to the right, small ear,and looks like a pointer at right eye. just a guess!

Thanks...

Now that I see the 5, it jumps right out at me. Not to question your judgement, but could it be a possibility of silver to the left? Being the 5 is under the left ear listening forward in the direction he's facing? 

Clay

Awesome carving Jay,

Good eye Brent,
But look close. is that a 5 or an 8.
I would still look to your right but would inspect that number closer.

My hunting partner and I are monitoring your replies tonight and they are revealing aspects that never even crossed our minds before now.  Thank you.  Thom, we expanded the size of the bear photo and it is definitely a 5.  I'd sure like to hear y'alls' thoughts about the meaning of the 5.  Is it a distance measurement, indication of the amount of silver (or treasure), depth, or something else?  I'm still reading page one of this section but will surely stay tuned in for the latest.    You guys sure know what you are doing and are very observant.  We have a lot more photographs of carvings and other signs that we've discovered in our travels around central Texas in the past 4 years so I will be posting some of them later on. 
Thank you,
~Texas Jay     

clay i see somethings from this pic

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index....c,149002.msg2180726.html#msg2180726

the shadow sign?, youll have to go back, and get a pic at noon to see
to the left of the shadow sign? looks like a ?, im sure thats a cross
you wouldnt have a closer pic would you, if i blow it up anymore it gets blurry
sorry meant to say i color coded, hoping it would be easier to understand

Hey, Texas Jay, here's my nickel's worth on that bear carving.

Thanks Shortstack, hadji, Clay, 10claw, and OD for all of your ideas and possible interpretations.  I need to give some more details on this bear carving to make it more understandable so I am posting a photo I took of the entire rock slab that the bear is carved into.  You will notice that there are many carvings of names and initials in this same rock.  Other carvings in the area seem to indicate that most of them were carved in the late 1800s and early 1900s.  The right ear of the bear points towards the east.  The left ear points more to the north toward a mountain range.  This bear face is about the size of a small man's fist but it was the first carving, of the many in the immediate vicinity, that caught my eye the first time I explored the area nearly 35 years ago.  I hope this additional information and photo will help answer some of your questions and make deciphering it easier.  
~Texas Jay

Shadow face! Looking left and down!

OK, Texas Jay.  In my first photo mark-up, forget the "south" and "southwest" references.
In the new pix below, are a couple of ideas.

Clay, I saw him first, I saw him first.  Nanni Nanni Boo Boo.

I'd never noticed the shadow face before you guys noticed it.  So cool!  I have a lot to learn about deciphering signs and symbols so I really appreciate your comments based on your experience.  The bear is on a rock on the face of a cliff and, to the left side of it (west) only a few yards away, we found these three horseshoes (muleshoes?) on a large slab of the same type of rock that is laying flat on the ground.  The rock on this site is very hard and not easy to carve in so these more intricate carvings probably took several hours and the right equipment to create.  The bronze token is one of my sobriety chips and is about the size of a silver dollar.  I placed it there for size comparison purposes.  I also outlined the carvings that I could clearly make out in white chalk.  
~Texas Jay

OK, TJ, here's the obvious (to me)

Yes, Shortstack, that is what they looked like to me too.  Sure wish I knew what those straight lines meant and also what the "M" represents.     It is probable that the Spanish used this site as a landmark as others, including the KGC, did a few hundred years later. 
~Texas Jay

TJ,  I can only quote from Kenworthy's book.   

A short "dash" has numerous meanings, depending how and where it is used.

---if it is connected to a symbol, it probably is a "pull" sign.

---It may be used just to separate one instruction / message from another.

---It may say: - to the - (next symbol), or may say: "subtract".


Muleshoes are map / trail symbols for the trail, however, these are used as both in and out trail markers, and were used more on Mexican maps than Spanish.  The "closed" end of the shoe is the direction to travel.  Often, in the field, along the trail will be the carving of 2 "shoes" with open ends facing one another.  This simply says;  "This is the trail both in and out". 

More info on the "muleshoe" figure:
     This is the classic "tunnel" symbol.  The direction it angles is usually the compass direction of the mine entrance.  Frequently this sign will adjoin a mine symbol  (a circle in a circle).  Many times it will be off to itself or at the top of the map, again, just indicating access to the mine will be via a tunnel.  It's a good clue, it will show you which slope or mountain side to search.

Remember that "S" I circled on your first "bear" carving photo?  Well, according to Kenworth:
        The letter "S" in and of itself represents the Spanish word "Superior".  This letter is found both on maps and on the trails to treasure, but always in conjunction with other symbols or markers.  It simply means, on maps, that this is the "Best" way to reach your goal, but that there are other ways available.  Often a dot will follow the "S".  This means it is superior because water--or more water is available. 
          So, instead of it meaning "south" as I first thought, it apparently means "Superior".  It is used in conjunction with other symbols on that caving, so I wonder if it might mean, " a large (superior) treasure".  And that "5" means silver mine, bars, or coins-----or all of those. 
           The letter "S" with bar serifs, is the directional letter meaning "south".


NOTE!!!!!!  I just found in Kenworthy's book that the letter I thought was an "M" is not that, but it is a "W" and gives direction (west).  A "hard" or straight lined and pointed "W" is always, and only, a "W".   
     I'll change the tagged info on the photo above.

M COULD ALSO MEAN OWL, OWL MEANS TREASURE ROOM.

M COULD ALSO MEAN OWL, OWL MEANS TREASURE ROOM.

    It might.  I am no expert and am only quoting from Kenworthy's book about the letter "W".  He does mention that the Spanish and, later, the Mexicans, used Roman Numerals on their maps and trail markers and the letter "M" is one of them. 

My Thoughts about the "W" is that they used letters of the alphabet to convey or to continue their messages, total of the measurements used by the Tailor for the King in 1400's Height of the King = 5 ft 7 in--Codo = 16.5 in---Palmo + 8. 25 in Total = 91.75 inches or 233 CM this can be used as a depth indicator 7 ft  7 inches  or as a distance indicator 233 paces-- or  X 10 =2330 vara  X 33 = 76890 inches --then take a mile or 5280 X 12 = 63360 inches per  mile--- Divide 76890 by 63360 = 1.2135  or 1/2 of a league for distance AND it can be used as a compass degree AND it can be use as All three, It can represent two each 33 degree turns it can be used as two canyons, two mountains-- the list continues for the 23 rd letter of the alphabet, thanks for the look

Thanks Buddy.

Wow! Step away for a second and all types of good advice and beautiful pics come out of the woodwork....

Ok. Goin on vacation... Can't wait to get back and learn. See you soon....

Clay

Thanks, guys, for all of the fascinating replies and information.  I will be saving them all to a notepad and print them off so that my partner and I can thoroughly review them before we make another trip to the area.  Our next trip will have to wait until next winter as the place is crawling with rattlesnakes and copperheads during other times of the year.  It is on private property that is well-secured and the snakes will be coming out in the next few weeks.  I'm going to post the third photograph of another major sign from this site to this message.  A little more background is necessary here.  The bear, muleshoes, and staircase carvings are all on the same cliff area and are within ten yards of each other.  The muleshoes are to the west of the bear and the staircase is to the north of the muleshoes on the same ledge of surface rock as the shoes are on.  You will note my camera and equipment bag sitting at the top corner of the photo.  If you were look to the left of the bag, you would first see the muleshoes carving and then up on the cliff face, further to the left (east) you would see the bear carving.  Now, for the staircase photo.  In the center of the picture, above the stairs, is a horizontal notch (dash mark) that is about an inch deep.  To the right of the stairs are two "l" marks with a "period" or dot between them.  Although I've looked at this carving many times on previous visits there, I only just now noticed what looks like another muleshoe adjoining the bottom left of the stairs!  I don't remember EVER seeing that before and cannot understand why I only just now noticed it from the photo.  Surely, I would have noted it before I photographed it but I didn't.  All I can say is that maybe it only shows up clearly in the photo and wasn't noticeable to me or my partner is because the angle of the camera and the sunlight was hitting it just right.  I really don't know how else to explain it.  I do know that the letters one other sign rock, from another site, was only visible when the sun was in the perfect angle although we had visited that rock on several occasions and could not read the markings on it.  This staircase is facing north-south with the stairways facing north and the notch on the south side.  
~Texas Jay

Just a thought... Instead of a staircase, could that be a book laid on its side, exposing the pages?

Clay

Jay,
Just above the second I mark and just next to the second I mark are two more marks that show up cleanly.
A cross bar and another dot of sorts.
And what are these in the center? Scratches?