Knights of the Golden Circle after the Civil War

It would seem the CIA thinks the same as I do. The KGC failed to accomplish much. Like has been said on here before, they did manage to pull Texas into the war and for that Texas suffered after the war like the other southern states.

This is why you don't believe in the KGC.  This is all bogus information...every bit of it.

Jay and Boattow I posted KGC maps. Do you guys have anything to offer the forum readers? I'm talking KGC treasure related. I think everyone agrees the KGC was a real organization and plenty can be found about them, but lets get down to the knitty gritty of KGC treasure caches. I've posted four kgc maps and I have others. What can you guys provide? Of course I think the maps are bogus, but I at least provided something that most people here on the forum didn't have.

I have lots of information to offer the forum readers.  But unlike your "information" mine is real.  Therefore I'm not interested in putting it on an internet forum.  I know you can't believe this stuff you spew.  You guys are silly.

Now how can my information not be real? It came from Jesse James III. This is the major source of KGC mega caches that so many people use as their source. The other information I post is real. This would include the hundreds of treasure signs I've posted pictures of.

So Boattow you are saying the CIA is listing bogus information and Texas Jay is using them as a verifiable source. I'm confused, which one is it?

So you have lots of real information to offer forum readers, but since it is real you're not going to do it? And this will prove to forum readers that the KGC had mega caches how? I can promise you that if I ever come across a source of true information that verifies the KGC cache theory I'd post it just to end the debate. Even though I'd have to admit I was wrong all along.

I started out looking to prove they are real but I just can't find the goods to prove it. I'm a very good researcher and there's not much I can't come up with when I start to look. There are a few people who can attest to this. I'm just the type who likes to see proof of these claims that people make.

You ask for proof that these caches don't exist and I show how Howk and Dalton were conmen. Up until I started posting information that shows them as such they were the source of KGC info. Now they've been thrown under the bus, but nobody is offering up anything new. Bob has based his reputation on the information the "black book" contains. So if he is the source often quoted and Dalton and Howk were fakes what good is a LA Times article?

Pastore flipped through the maps on the show like he had something good. Does that mean Pastore had false info as well? Boattow do you really believe the stuff you spew?

Does anyone here consider our Central Intelligence Agency a "reliable source"?   
~Texas Jay

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/additional-publications/civil-war/p37.htm

You seem to be proving my point Jay, there is lots of information available about the KGC but absolutely none of it mentions anything about any treasures, not even small ones.

Your C.I.A. article also says that the KGC and the Sons of Liberty were two SEPARATE groups.

I have lots of information to offer the forum readers.  But unlike your "information" mine is real.  Therefore I'm not interested in putting it on an internet forum.  I know you can't believe this stuff you spew.  You guys are silly.

Well I guess that ends the debate.    You supposedly have the information to prove all of us naysayers wrong and to show without a doubt that the KGC had the mega depositories but you don't want to show it? 

After all of the arguing you've done about the depositories and vaults I would think you would jump all over being able to prove they exist. Now you're sounding just like Brewer and the rest of the true believers, you have "secret information" that no one else knows about but you can't share it with the world. And you think we are "silly"?

I certaintly wouldn't expect you to give up any big treasure secrets like how to find a depository or use the template      but if you have actual documentation that the depositories exist then what is the harm in sharing that information or even just the source of the information?

   (SUNNY out...) Recovering from a broken right ankle... surgery, 3 screws, a rod... FRIGGING "black ice"!;   AFTER the American Civil War, and the country was UNIFIED...  KGC, etc. became OAK; ORDER OF AMERICAN KNIGHTS.  NOW! Unrepentent REBELS became OUTLAWS, with MANY small caches, MOSTLY in the former "free states", and TEXAS! SOME depositories were utilized to "rebuild the SOUTH".  A NEW war began against the "Robber Barons", the FEDS... OUT WEST! "Go from there..."

Alec and 2late,
The bottom line is I could show you pictures until I was blue in the face and you would say it was faked, it wasn't KGC, or whatever your denying minds could come up with.  But what you guys do which is the same as SWR, you keep quoting the same sources that you admit you don't believe.  I guess you are right Alec, I'm not out to prove anything to anybody.  I'm just here ruffling your feathers and you guys just keep coming back for more. 
Your friend,
Boattow

But what you guys do which is the same as SWR, you keep quoting the same sources that you admit you don't believe. 

Hold on there, Hoss. SWR has not been quoting any sources that I don't believe.

SWR keeps asking for reliable references or sources that will validate the claim. Internet message boards, historically incorrect Western novels, Southwest Folklore and action/adventure treasure hunting novels do not qualify as reliable references

[The Order is of Southern origin, being erected on the ruins of the Knights of the Golden Circle.]

Hello!  When you read the whole article you will find this:


"...About the 1st of January Vallandigham issued an address to the members of the
Golden Circle in the loyal States, in which he called upon them to renew their
vows,..."

If they were called on to "renew their vows", it doesn't sound like the organization was dead to me.   
~Texas Jay

While the KGC naysayers continue to rant and rave that the Knights of the Golden
Circle died "during the War", they never do provide a specific year or reputable
source to support this erroneous claim. Here is a newspaper article from August
3, 1864, that says "The numerical strength of this Order is said to be
considerably over half a million." This was in late 1864 so it sure doesn't
sound to me like a dying organization. The proven fact is that the KGC had
hundreds of thousands more members at the end of the War than it had at the
beginning.
~Jay~

"The Order is of Southern origin, being erected on the ruins of the Knights of the Golden Circle."

Hello? Jay?  :::knock knock::: 

Boattow, I didn't realize I was quoting any sources I didn't believe. I also don't think showing photos of markers and carvings proves the existence of a KGC depository/vault. It may prove the existence of a treasure (at least at one time) but there is no proof of who it belongs to.

That's just the way it is. Until a treasure is recovered using authentic KGC documents that say this treasrue was hidden here then you can't say who put the treasure there. There has to be a historical reference or it's just a treasure. The same goes for a JJ treasure or anybody. It can be found, but without a historical reference to the treasure you can't say absolutely that it belonged to JJ or anybody else. It's just a treasure.

You've been arguing the same argument longer than I have been arguing against it and you still can't prove the KGC depositories ever existed, no one can. Thre is no evidence that they ever existed or that the KGC even had the funds to put in the ground. In fact, all of the information out there says otherwise.

Jay, just because they wee called on to renew their vows didn't mean they did. It also doesn't mean they had any money and if renewing your vows meant paying more dues to be a member then I doubt very many did because the South and it's people didn't have any money.

Hold on there, Hoss. SWR has not been quoting any sources that I don't believe.

You are right, you believe your sources.  They are the online Texas handbook which is the scholarly and very inaccurate/incomplete history of the KGC.  Continue to believe it.
Hoss

Hold on there, Hoss. SWR has not been quoting any sources that I don't believe.

You are right, you believe your sources.  They are the online Texas handbook which is the scholarly and very inaccurate/incomplete history of the KGC.  Continue to believe it.
Hoss

LoL...thanks!

That was funny...no matter who ya are. Hoss.  heh

I also don't think showing photos of markers and carvings proves the existence of a KGC depository/vault. It may prove the existence of a treasure (at least at one time) but there is no proof of who it belongs to.

Exactly my point.  No point in trying to prove anything to people who have their eyes closed and won't accept that they could be wrong. 

I can quote KGC sources all day long and none other than what originated with Houk talk of KGC mega caches. Of course I don't believe what Howk says. He was nothing more than a conman. Boattow do you believe what Houk said? If you would, please enlighten me on a source for KGC mega caches before Howk made up his grand stories.  

I also have to ask what source am I supposed to quote from? I'm the one saying that KGC mega caches don't exist and if I can't find anyone talking of them prior to Houk how am I supposed to quote a source? Shouldn't it be the ones who believe in KGC mega caches quoting their sources? Yet out of all of those who claim such things exist none have stepped forward with any verified source other than Houk. It's always a secret source, or I can't make it public kinda thing. Like Alec asked what harm would it do to list a source? Is it from a newspaper, government files, old diary, unpublished documents, or the inside cover of great great great Grandpa Smiths Bible?

If any feathers are getting ruffled I would think it's the ones who have to prove the mega caches are real that are having the hard time of it. I'm not the one making the claims. You're the one who made the claim that pictures we post on my blog are KGC, yet you haven't worked the sites. It's easy for us to prove they are nothing more than what we state they are.

You are placing the burden of proof on our shoulders when it's not our burden to bear. It belongs to the one making these wild claims.

Exactly my point.  No point in trying to prove anything to people who have their eyes closed and won't accept that they could be wrong.  

Are you kidding me?? I've already said I was wrong. I was wrong about the depositories ever existing!  

Now we get back into opinions and a place where you won't admit you may be wrong. You had said earlier that you could be 100% sure that the KGC depositories existed and I couldn't be 100% sure that they didn't. You're basing your 100% positive proof that they do exist on your interpretation of symbols and markers in the field. I can do the same thing to show the signs and markers as something else and have but that doesn't seem to be good enough for you because they don't agree with what you think.

That brings us back to you getting perturbed about people coming on the forums and other places and talking about the KGC "myths", and they are myths. You don't like it but you can't prove otherwise and that makes you exactly like me or anybody else. Until you find documented proof that even one depository exists you can't be 100% certain they do because there just isn't any proof out there, none, nada, zilch. You're talking about your opinion and not undeniable fact.

Everybody has an opinion and at this point mine is as good as yours because we both could show the same proof of two different things, all based on our own interpretations of the symbols/markers.

  (WASSAIL!)  "Google" BURIED TREASURES - ORDER OF AMERICAN KNIGHTS  554,000 "hits"; BURIED TREASURE SYMBOLS - ORDER OF AMERICAN KNIGHTS 46,900 "hits".   

Same old rehashed information, nothing new or real.

  FISHING, then?   NOW, what kinda fish, yer looking fer? 

You don't like it but you can't prove otherwise and that makes you exactly like me or anybody else.

No, not quite.  You can't prove that KGC vaults don't exist.  I can prove they do exist.  I choose not to.
Hoss

Well "Hoss", 

You have been arguing for years all over the internet that the depositories do exist and you don't like it when the naysayers like myself say they don't but instead of ponying up some proof you choose to continue the same argument over and over again, never proving their existence. Do you just like to argue?? 

Interesting what our perceptions are.  I never thought of myself as arguing all over the internet for years.  In fact I see myself until recently as mostly a lurker.  I just decided to get on here and ruffle some feathers.  I have to admit I'm enjoying it  
Take care,
Hoss
(this is for you SWR, I've never been given a nickname before)  

You are the same boattow (hoss) that was on the ALT forum aren't you? You had the same argument or debate if you want to call it that over there also. I believe you posted on the forum that you didn't agree with my interpretations of different symbols and markers that I was calling outlaw on the blog. http://okietreasurehunter.blogspot.com/

You haven't ruffled my feathers. I enjoy a good debate as much as the next guy. YOu just can't seem to win one though. 

I believe you posted on the forum that you didn't agree with my interpretations of different symbols and markers that I was calling outlaw on the blog.

I really don't recall ever commenting on your blog.  Show me if I'm wrong.

Interesting what our perceptions are.  I never thought of myself as arguing all over the internet for years.  In fact I see myself until recently as mostly a lurker.  I just decided to get on here and ruffle some feathers.  I have to admit I'm enjoying it  
Take care,
Hoss
(this is for you SWR, I've never been given a nickname before)  

Thanks for the chuckle.

I hope you don't get on Texas Jay's bad side now that you are a part of the Smokescreen Gang   

Since Whyte has changed the forum I wouldn't even know where to go look for it at. I'm pretty sure that you posted somewhere, maybe even a comment on the blog itself, that you didn't agree with the way I interpreted the symbols I posted. I'm pretty sure it was on the ALT forum though. You seem to think the outlaw symbols I see are in actuallity KGC symbols.

Still haven't got an answer......Are there any gov records, newspaper accounts, speeches or anything from that time period that mentions the KGC or OAK/SOL existing after may 1865?

Not that I know of. You can check the Congressional records but they don't have anything in them about the KGC other than what happened during the Civil War.

If you are serious about your researching you can sign up for a subscription to newspaperarchive.com (or get a buddy to who will let you use his password    ). There are lots of articles about the KGC to be found there but again, nothing after the Civil War that I have found. You can also check the New York Times archives on line for free. Still, nothing that I have found after the Civil War about the KGC.

The Sons of Liberty have several mentions after the Civil War and there are some on OAK but none of them mention any treasure.

Still haven't got an answer......Are there any gov records, newspaper accounts, speeches or anything from that time period that mentions the KGC or OAK/SOL existing after may 1865?

None that I know of.

Alec,
This is where your perception that I've been "arguing all over the internet for years" is quite skewed.  I never commented on your blog until only days ago on this forum.  I've never commented on your blog or symbol deciphering on another forum or on your blog.  Feel free to prove me wrong cause my memory isn't what it used to be but I'm pretty darn sure I'm correct.
Hoss

Alec,
This is where your perception that I've been "arguing all over the internet for years" is quite skewed.  I never commented on your blog until only days ago on this forum.  I've never commented on your blog or symbol deciphering on another forum or on your blog.  Feel free to prove me wrong cause my memory isn't what it used to be but I'm pretty darn sure I'm correct.
Hoss

Hey Hoss...you and me have only been "at it" since '06. Quite the history, eh?

You still believe Brewers book the bees knees when it comes to the KGC...or have ya grown out of it yet?

Walker Colt, check out gldhntr's earlier topic about the old lawyer's diary on this page.  It's dated 1866.
~Texas Jay

Still haven't got an answer......Are there any gov records, newspaper accounts, speeches or anything from that time period that mentions the KGC or OAK/SOL existing after may 1865?

Well boattow I can't seem to find the post where you talked about my interpretations. Maybe you're right, maybe I've got you confused with somebody else.

I did find this from 2008 though.

Not sure I'm understanding the connection... #4  [-]
 
Posts: 57
(02/09/08 7:26 PM)
 So let me get this straight. Two guys apparently claim to be James'. They claimed to have some connection with the KGC. You do research that would seem to expose these 2 as flakes. And now the whole KGC story is a lie as well? I think I'll stick to my own research which is quite different from yours.
Boattow 

You weren't talking about my interpretations but that was your answer to me in regards to a post about the KGC. I apologize if I was wrong about you posting on my interpretations. I still think you did though. 

You still believe Brewers book the bees knees when it comes to the KGC...or have ya grown out of it yet?

SWR, I think your memory is as foggy as Alec's.  I am pretty sure you have me mixed up with Texas Jay as he has praised the book on many occasions.  I am pretty sure I never posted anything positive about Brewer's book.  I think it is entertaining.  I think there is a nugget here and there of valid information.  It doesn't come anywhere close to equipping somone to find KGC treasure.

As for the Houk book.  I've never really formed an opinion on it.  However, coincidence or not, I used some information from it in part in finding 2 KGC sites.  As Alec stated on the forums many years ago before he went to the dark side... You get nuggets of information here and there to form your own opinions.  The vast majority of mine comes from the field.
Hoss

The dark side!!

You still believe Brewers book the bees knees when it comes to the KGC...or have ya grown out of it yet?

SWR, I think your memory is as foggy as Alec's.  I am pretty sure you have me mixed up with Texas Jay as he has praised the book on many occasions.  I am pretty sure I never posted anything positive about Brewer's book.  I think it is entertaining.  I think there is a nugget here and there of valid information.  It doesn't come anywhere close to equipping somone to find KGC treasure.

As for the Houk book.  I've never really formed an opinion on it.  However, coincidence or not, I used some information from it in part in finding 2 KGC sites.  As Alec stated on the forums many years ago before he went to the dark side... You get nuggets of information here and there to form your own opinions.  The vast majority of mine comes from the field.
Hoss

er....from 2003. You said:

I would suggest reading "Shadow of the Sentinel" by Bob Brewer on this forum.  I had the same beliefs as you until I read that book.  If that doesn't get your heart pumping, nothing will.

in 2004 ya thought he died 

Well, it looks like Bob Brewer has left us.  This was in the Fort Smith Arkansas Newspaper.  I enjoyed his book...

Yes, Hoss, you are correct.  I have praised Bob Brewer's and Warren Getler's book "Rebel Gold" on many occasions in the past five years since it was where I first heard anything about the Knights of the Golden Circle.  Since then, I have praised so many other books and criticized so many traditionalist propagandist books that I have lost count of the number of books I have read on the subject.  I've also criticized those who claim there in nothing beneficial to be found in "Rebel Gold" because, while they claim to have read it, they clearly have not read the outstanding bibliography contained in it.  I also get my treasure information "in the field" and my partner and I have spent untold hours there and many more hours trying to understand the story that is told in the symbols, tree signs, rock carvings and tree carvings that we have found.  We have travelled many miles working on our sites but, without knowing about the KGC at all before reading Brewer's book, the symbols and carvings had me mystified for many decades after I first discovered some of them while exploring central Texas countryside.  Understanding the story of the KGC in central Texas, or anywhere else, also requires one to be knowledgeable on local and Texas history.  Those subjects have fascinated me since I was old enough to read.  I read long ago that "treasure is where you find it" and some things are as precious or even more precious to me than any amount of silver or gold. 
~Texas Jay   

You still believe Brewers book the bees knees when it comes to the KGC...or have ya grown out of it yet?

SWR, I think your memory is as foggy as Alec's.  I am pretty sure you have me mixed up with Texas Jay as he has praised the book on many occasions.  I am pretty sure I never posted anything positive about Brewer's book.  I think it is entertaining.  I think there is a nugget here and there of valid information.  It doesn't come anywhere close to equipping somone to find KGC treasure.

As for the Houk book.  I've never really formed an opinion on it.  However, coincidence or not, I used some information from it in part in finding 2 KGC sites.  As Alec stated on the forums many years ago before he went to the dark side... You get nuggets of information here and there to form your own opinions.  The vast majority of mine comes from the field.
Hoss

I did say it was entertaining.

Yes, Hoss, you sure did and it sure is...everytime I read it again.   
~Texas Jay

I did say it was entertaining.

Yep...that'll get the ole heart pumping   

Yep...that'll get the ole heart pumping   

You don't find anything exciting in the book?  Just seeing the carvings does it for me.

I really enjoyed his interpretation of the "wolf" map. I found it very entertaining! I can also show how the Cerca Quince Cinco map doesn't go to "Wapanucka" as is claimed. 

Entertaining is definitely a word you could use for Brewer's book. I was laughing so hard in some spots I thought I was going to choke!

Entertaining is definitely a word you could use for Brewer's book. I was laughing so hard in some spots I thought I was going to choke!

Awe c'mon Alec.  Back when that book came out you were arguing all over the forums for years for the same beliefs that Brewer has.
Hoss

Not the completely same beliefs, I've never been followed by people in helicopters!

Geez Hoss, I've already admitted I was wrong (about the KGC). What more do you want?

Are you telling me that you believe Frank and Jesse were part of the KGC and JJ was the "comptroller" of the group?

Alec, if you still haven't been buzzed by a helicopter, you are definitely hunting in the wrong places or don't get out often enough.  Maybe you should read "Rebel Gold" again because you must have missed something.   
~Texas Jay

Believe me Texas, I didn't miss a thing. If anybody is buying into the way Brewer interpreted the so called "wolf" map then you don't know anything about maps. Brewer didn't even put a clean copy of the map in his book, he used one with a lot of extra lines and numbers on it and those weren't even drawn by him! Brewer doesn't even have a good copy of the copper map so there is a lot of detail in the map he doesn't even know about.

Entertaining is definitely a word you could use for Brewer's book. I was laughing so hard in some spots I thought I was going to choke!

Awe c'mon Alec.  Back when that book came out you were arguing all over the forums for years for the same beliefs that Brewer has.
Hoss

Gee Hoss...even you were taken in by all the hoop-la.

Why ya keep raggin on Alec? He already explained himself  

Alec, will you please show me where I ever stated that I agreed with Bob Brewer about the "wolf map"?  I never have and I have never said that I agree with everything Bob Brewer wrote in the book.  What I have said is that "Rebel Gold' is a "must read" for anyone wanting to learn about the Knights of the Golden Circle and I stand by that endorsement 100%.   
~Texas Jay

Texas, I don't know that you ever have but you talk about the book like it's the bible of KGC treasures. There's better things to read than Brewer's book if you are interested in the KGC and especially if you want to find treasure.

Would you care to name a few of those books, Alec?  Apparently, they are not better than Brewer's book or else you would still be standing on your beliefs of only a few years ago.  Have you read "The Spider Rock Treasure" by Steve Wilson?
~Texas Jay

Just pick a book Jay, anything that has real history in it and doesn't talk about the mythical KGC depositories. Then you will change your mind too!!

Spider Rock Treasures? I have that book and have talked with Steve personally. Surely you're not going to say the Spider Rock treasures are KGC?? Although it is very likely that is where Howk got his idea to draw a KGC template, those treasures are purely Spanish.

I can say that I have asked Mr Brewer for help....not really expecting any. But upon sending a few pictures my phone rang one day....It was Mr Brewer he very graciously answered questions that I had pertaining to my site. His book started me down the right path but it is very easily to get sidetracked and discouraged on the KGC trail....I have found a total of six empty holes....which ones actually held caches or  were decoys "gotchas"  as Mr Brewer calls them I don't know. But I do know that it took an enormous amount of time and manpower to plant all of these clues....I have even found a small metal clue painted red from the 1960's...hidden under a rock. Much like the tube of toothpaste he mentions in his book. I have found clues that were planted recently very recently....This year during deer season I was cutting a shooting lane and realized I was cutting down saplings that had recently been planted and preshaped to use as directionals! This was right next to a clue area that A stone carving led me to.

Now I cant say for certain that there was ever gold or silver hidden in these empty holes...But why would someone  go through the trouble to plant such elaborate clues covering several square miles just to lead to an empty hole? One stone map I recovered showed a tunnel leading down to a large room...in this room was a yellow colored rock...and a white rock....This map was an interactive map...as I could pick up the rocks...as well as a carving of a terrain feature that led me 4 miles away...and an empty hole....

In my area reseach has led me to believe that there was a core of men who travelled with the Civilian Conservation Corps who helped lay down these clues....As I mentioned earlier, it took an army of men to lay all of these clues....New roads have been built recently which skirt the area  that my map led me to... New clues were planted next to this new road! Only the Forest service would have permission to build these roads.

I am just passing on information that I have learned the last 10 months while spending every spare minute in the field...You can retain it for future use or scoff at it, no difference to me. This has been a great ride full of highs and lows. I look forward to the next ride which will have to wait until I get back from my tour of duty...Steve

Hi Steve.  Thank you so much for posting about your experiences.  Many of them echo my and my partner's own experiences here in Texas.  Like he was with you, Bob Brewer has always kindly shared his knowledge and tips with me whenever I wrote to him.  Others will scoff at you but, like you, I know the things you say are true as I've encountered them in my own field work.  During and after the Civil War, the KGC had men in nearly every federal organization from the army, Congress, and judgeships down to the U.S. Geological Survey (est. 1879).  Keep your eyes open for all unusual trees that have been grafted or misshapen to provide indicators.  Most of them in our area are old oaks and mesquites.  The tunnels you mention were built, in most cases, by KGC stonemasons and miners and they usually, but not always, lead to a depository.  Some towns, like my hometown, have KGC tunnel networks laying under the downtown areas so that the Knights could go about their business without being seen by Federals.  They are usually 15-20 feet below ground.  The depositories usually have several similar tunnels leading into them.  Be careful, though, as all but one of the depository tunnels are usually boobytrapped.  One is known as the "safe entrance" which they used to retrieve or deposit their treasures after the depository was built. 
Thank you for serving our country.
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

Texas Jay...I dont know how to post a pic here on tnet....but If you want I can send you a couple of pics of a couple of clues that I have found (stone carvings)and you can post it here if you choose...I will see if you have an email address and send...Steve.....Just sent to your email