Do you have PROOF of a KGC treasure?

As always, Tnwoods, you are wrong again.  I was responding to RGINN's allegation that Pike's efforts to get Native Americans in Oklahoma Territory to join the Confederacy was NOT successful when the facts clearly show that his efforts were very successful and the best example of that was General Stand Watie and his Cherokee Mounted Rifles.  My reply to RGINN did not address the Native American members of the KGC because that was not the point that needed correcting.  Once again, it's back to ignore for you Tnwoods so you can have time to catch up with what has actually been said and what hasn't.

~Texas Jay   

[Blackfoot, Arapaho, Assiniboine, Cheyenne, Comanche, Crow, Gros Ventre, Kiowa, Lakota, Lipan, Plains Apache (or Kiowa Apache), Plains Cree, Plains Ojibwe, Sarsi, Shoshone, Stoney, and Tonkawa.Arikara, Hidatsa, Iowa, Kaw (or Kansa), Kitsai, Mandan, Missouria, Omaha, Osage, Otoe, Pawnee, Ponca, Quapaw, Santee, Wichita, and Yankton.]

"Do you have PROOF of a KGC treasure?"  No.  I can take you to Oklahoma where there are carvings on a tree and a big hole in the ground, not too far from where 2late is, but no KGC connection.  Farther west of there a treasure of some type really was dug up, but not KGC.  It was probably related to the Kiowas attack on traders on the Canadian in the 1830's who had some silver specie, but maybe not.  Albert Pike did come to what is now Oklahoma to the Ft. Cobb area in an attempt to recruit the Plains Indians for the southern cause, but it didn't go over real well because after all, it was a rich white man's war.  So I guess technically there is a KGC connection to SW Oklahoma, but no proof of a treasure.

Ok Texas Jay, nice way to deflect and change what your post did or did not mean.

RGINN made one post that states, as noted above: Albert Pike did come to what is now Oklahoma to the Ft. Cobb area in an attempt to recruit the Plains Indians for the southern cause, but it didn't go over real well

Here is a list of the "Plains Indian tribes:  Blackfoot, Arapaho, Assiniboine, Cheyenne, Comanche, Crow, Gros Ventre, Kiowa, Lakota, Lipan, Plains Apache (or Kiowa Apache), Plains Cree, Plains Ojibwe, Sarsi, Shoshone, Stoney, and Tonkawa.Arikara, Hidatsa, Iowa, Kaw (or Kansa), Kitsai, Mandan, Missouria, Omaha, Osage, Otoe, Pawnee, Ponca, Quapaw, Santee, Wichita, and Yankton.

Notice that the Cherokee are not mentioned, because they were not Plains Indians.  A lot of the Plains Indians joined the Union.

So maybe his statement isn't incorrect after all?

I guess we can play this game forever.  I'm still waiting patiently to learn why you think Henry Ford of Brownwood TX was Jesse James.

It wasn't only the Cherokees who fought in the war. The Choctaws as well as others joined in. The Plains Tribes just took advantage of the war to expand their raiding parties into Texas and Kansas. Pike failed to bring the Comanches, Kiowas, etc. into the confederacy for many reasons but one was that the confederacy couldn't deliver on their promises of supplies. Get on ebay and buy the book Carbine and Lance if you want to learn the history of Ft Cobb/FT Sill and the Plains Tribes.

As always, Tnwoods, you are wrong again.  I was responding to RGINN's allegation that Pike's efforts to get Native Americans in Oklahoma Territory to join the Confederacy was NOT successful when the facts clearly show that his efforts were very successful and the best example of that was General Stand Watie and his Cherokee Mounted Rifles.  My reply to RGINN did not address the Native American members of the KGC because that was not the point that needed correcting.  Once again, it's back to ignore for you Tnwoods so you can have time to catch up with what has actually been said and what hasn't.

~Texas Jay   

No my friend, I know your game.

You ignore facts that do not fit what you want to believe.    You sir, can put me on ignore all you want.  Your favorite saying when presented with facts is "you are just trying to muddy the water".

Facts sir, do not muddy the water, they clear it up.  Only someone who has no facts tries to "muddy the water". 

You are free to believe what you want, but please sir, do not expect anyone else to believe it with you, when the facts are not on your side.

And until you answer any of my questions, which you have not, and you should know what they are by now, as I have repeated them several times - do not tell me to go and study anything.

I know how you believe William C. Anderson was Bloody Bill.  Despite the fact that Brownwood tax records show he never left Brownwood during the war, or that his lineage is well established and is not that of Bloody Bill, which is also well established.

Henry Ford of Brownwood TX was not Jessie James.  He left tax records too - and he never left the county during the war.  I do not know where you get your ideas from, but basing them in just a little bit of fact would be nice.

So spare me the I will ignore you crap.

Put up.

I am tiring of your silly game.  I want the truth.  Don't you? 

ust a quick google of Stand Watie and the Knights of the Golden Circle indicated the following.  Now I am not saying that these are correct, only that they were found on the internet. Now can I prove that Stand Watie was a member of the KGC or anything else, can i even prove that he even lived or was a General or a Confederate or an indian. No not really, not unless you believe everything you read. So if anyone tell me that Stand Watie was a Cherokee I will just have to say prove it.

http://spirittalknews.com/standwatie.htm
"In 1861 the Civil War broke out and Stand Watie organized a small private army which called itself the “Knights of the Golden Circle.” He was soon commissioned as a colonel in the First Cherokee Mounted Rifles, a unit of the Confederate Army."


http://www.yvwiiusdinvnohii.net/Cherokee/CivilWar-AWarWithinAWar.htm
March, 1861
Elias C. Boudinot, Stand Watie’s nephew, elected Secretary of the Arkansas Secession Convention. Watie organized pro-Southern Secret Society called the “Knights of the Golden Circle” which later became “The Southern Rights Party.” Watie also raised guerilla company of Cherokees to assist the south.

"Stand Watie assumed the leadership of the Ridge-Watie-Boundinot faction and was involved in a long-running blood feud with the followers of John Ross.  He also was a leader of the Knights of the Golden Circle, which bitterly opposed abolitionism."

http://www.civilwarhome.com/watiebio.htm
http://www.mycivilwar.com/leaders/watie_stand.htm
http://www.congray.com/dixie/standwatie1.htm
http://historyonair.com/?page_id=6&id=95

The article above has been removed from this forum by me and edited for spelling and context and has been reposted to the forum at:
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,284538.0.html
I am quoting as it was originally for archival purposes.

"The leader of the Knights of the Golden Circle was Stand Watie, a Freemason, and members of the Knights of the Golden Circle included many of the elites of the Cherokee Nation, John Rollin Ridge; Elias Boudinot; William Penn Adair; James Bell -- all leaders of the Southern Rights party. [48]"
[48] McLoughlin, Cherokees and Christianity, p. 258
http://www.us-data.org/us/minges/keetoo1.html


"The leader of the Knights of the Golden Circle was Stand Watie, a Freemason probably affiliated with Federal Lodge #1 in Washington, D.C. Members of the Knights of the Golden Circle included many of the elites of the Cherokee Nation: John Rollin Ridge, Elias Boudinot, William Penn Adair, James Bell, Joseph Scales, and Josiah Washbourne -- all leaders of the Southern Rights party and former “Treaty Party” members. [113] The Constitution of the Knights of the Golden Circle, as recorded on August 28, 1860 states among its provisions:

We, a part of the people of the Cherokee Nation, in order to form a more perfect union and protect ourselves and property against the works of Abolitionists do establish this Constitution for the government of the Knights of the Golden Circle in this Nation...
No person shall become a member of the Knights of the Golden Circle in the Cherokee Nation who is not a pro-slavery man...

The Captain, or in case of his refusal, then the Lieutenant has the power to compell each and every member of their Encampment to turn out and assist in capturing and punishing any and all abolitionists in their minds who are interfering with slavery....

You do solemnly swear that you will keep all the secrets of this order and that you will, to the best of your abilities protect and defend the interests of the Knights of the Golden Circle in this Nation, so help you God. [114]"

[113] Franks, 114-115; McLoughlin, Cherokees and Christianity, 258. Of these, William Penn Adair was a member of Flint Lodge, John Rollin Ridge was most likely a Mason [Parins, 191], and Boudinot and Washbourne were Masons from Fayetteville, Arkansas.

[114] Knights of the Golden Circle. Constitution and By-Laws, Cherokee Collection: Northeastern State University, Tahlequah, OK, 1-2.
http://www.us-data.org/us/minges/keetood2.html


"On June 23, Stand Watie sent Knights of the Golden Circle William P. Adair and James Bell to meet with General Francis Herron to negotiate terms of surrender for the Confederate Cherokee."[14]
[14] Franks, 182.
www.tngenweb.org/tncolor/keetood5.htm

Back to the original question of this thread...Do you have PROOF of a KGC treasure?

Even if someone did have PROOF, they would be nuts to post it here on an Internet Forum!
The same holds true of ANY treasure found that amounts to anything.

Have I seen with my own eyes, any large treasure recovered (KGC or otherwise), no.
Does that mean there isn't any? No, it just means I haven't seen it.

Are there large amounts of gold buried by the KGC? I don't know...maybe there is and maybe there isn't.
Two things are for certain...if there isn't any large KGC treasures buried, then those who have claimed to have found them are lying, and if they are buried....the KGC naysayers are doing us all a favor by downplaying their existence.

Timberwolf

we'll classify you right up there with the best.

all the historians who gain fame by coppying each others books.
refusing to accept any new evidence.

Myths of the Cherokee By James Mooney. From Nineteenth Annual Report of the Bureau of American Ethnology 1897-98

"The breaking out of the civil war in 1861 found the Cherokee
divided in sentiment. Being slave owners, like the other Indians
removed from the southern states, and surrounded by southern influ-
ences, the agents in charge being themselves southern sympathizers,
a considerable party in each of the tribes was disposed to take active
part with the Confederacy. The old Ridge party, headed by Stand
Watie and supported by the secret secession organization known as
the Knights of the Golden Circle, declared for the Confederacy. The
National party, headed by John Ross and supported by the patriotic
organization known as the Kitoowah society — whose members were
afterward known as Pin Indians — declared for strict neutrality. At
last, however, the pressure became too strong to be resisted, and on
October T, L'861, a treaty was concluded at Tahlequah, with General
Albert Pike, commissioner for the Confederate states, by which the
Cherokee Nation cast its lot with the Confederacy, as the Creeks,
Choctaw, Chickasaw, Seminole, Osage, Comanche, and several smaller
tribes had already done."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Knights_of_the_Golden_Circle/

Famous Native American Freemasons
http://bellsouthpwp.net/g/o/goodoowah/freemasons/
Stand Watie   Leader of Cherokee Nation and canonized as the last Confederate General to Surrender
Elias C. Boudinot Leader of the Southern Cherokee during the Civil War
John Ridge    Leader of the Cherokee Nation and Advisor to the Muscogee
http://bellsouthpwp.net/g/o/goodoowah/freemasons/

"Of the five tribes, Pike had most trouble with the Cherokee. Their leader was John Ross, a full-blood opposed to slavery. However, another senior member of the Cherokee was Stand Watie, who was also leader of the Knights of the Golden Circle (KGC). Ross refused to sign a treaty with Pike. Pike threatened Ross,
  "If he refuses, he will learn that his country is occupied; and I shall then negotiate with the leaders of the half-breeds who are now raising troops".
Around May 1861, a faction of Cherokee led by Stand Watie, also leader of the KGC, met with Pike to request the Confederacy to protect them from the Pins should they join the Confederacy and fight for slavery, protection which Pike agreed to give. Pike left the Cherokee and easily formed treaties with the other four tribes. Upon Pike's return to the Cherokee, Ross signed a treaty with Pike.

Stand Watie's brother was Lone Watie, also known as Elias C Boudinot. In the spring of 1860, Pike raised Elias to the 33rd Degree of the Ancient and Accepted Rite of Scottish Freemasonry. Elias was also the secretary to the 1861 secession convention of Arkansas, at which the Arkansas Ordinance of Secession was passed. Elias and Pike would later work together in Washington DC as lawyers."
http://www.theconspiracyexplained.com/People.html

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Knights_of_the_Golden_Circle/

Tnwoods, wrong again.  Show me one statement where I ever said that I believed that Henry Ford of Brownwood was Jesse (not Jessie) James.

"I'm still waiting patiently to learn why you think Henry Ford of Brownwood TX was Jesse James."

~Texas Jay

we'll classify you right up there with the best.

all the historians who gain fame by coppying each others books.
refusing to accept any new evidence.

Just like the Bangers who copy Darwin's crap and each other's muses;  right down to incorrect sentence structure and misspelled words.      Most of Darwin's "great theory" was plagiarized from his own grandfather.     

What does THIS have to do with the topic?  It justifies not taking the mainstream authors' works for anything but "rumor".  If you want to know the real stories, read the writings of those who were there and did the "deeds".  Their writing styles may not meet  academic standards, but they aren't copying other peoples' info, either.  AND,  you won't hear them keep singing that same, tired, old song, "Show Me Proof,  diddle, diddle".   

Mr. beale:

     Your posts reinforces my last post.  Thank you. 
Did you "flush" all of your previous postings? 
   

I understand 18 bars of gold weighing about 30 pounds each with the CSA Stamp on them was found,

Well, imagine that.
I'm sure them Knights of the Golden Circle didn't have anything to do with burying this treasure.
My good buddy SWR hasn't been shown the proof and documentation that he desires...so it just can't be true.

TW

Good Morning Jim,

Yes, that was my feeble attempt at humor...not one of my strong suits of course.

Tom

Dear group;
On a personal note, I would like to see a bit of proof as well, in order to prop up my flagging faith in the KGC. Thus far, my view of the KGC is that they were a bunch of lazy, no-accounts who were sluffing off when they should have been hard at work burying treasure caches here and yon.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Gentlemen,

Let's be honest. If any of us found 18 bars of gold (KGC or otherwise), how many of us would actually post our recovery on the Internet?
I'm guessing that number would be somewhere near...zero!

Good luck, getting someone to show you proof of their recovered treasures.
Those smart enough to do the research and make a recovery, are smart enough not to talk about it.

TW

 

Hey, Timberwolf, do you know what is REALLY funny?  These people sitting around demanding "proof" of caches, will remain poor and ignor-ant (concerning recoverable valuables) while the folks they're making fun of are going about their business, keeping their own council, and FINDING those "nonexistent" vaults and caches.      THAT is the greatest justice of all. 

:::cough cough::::   

"Caches (buried treasure) of mammoth proportions are newsworthy. A good example would be the recently discovered Anglo-Saxton hoard in the UK. Other examples would include the recoveries of Mel Fisher and others in Florida, other large hoards in the UK, discoveries in Israel, Amsterdam, China and various other locations around the world."

Actually Jim, these are bad examples.  I didn't say anything last time you gave these poor examples but I'm going to this time.  If you find a treasure in the UK, you actually WANT to report it to the government.  The treasure trove laws in the UK are very clear and fair.  If the government wants your treasure, they will pay you what it is worth.  If they don't want your treasure, you keep it.  As for Mel Fisher, he fought the state of Florida for years with money and lawyers to keep his treasure.  The state gave him a hard time on other issues after the successful suit.  The US does not have clear treasure trove laws as other countries.  Anybody who finds any treasure in the US, KGC or not, would be an idiot to tell anybody, especially the US government.
Boattow

I have higher standards and I share Boattow's opinion.

I have higher standards and I share Boattow's opinion.

The same goes for me.

I have higher standards and I share Boattow's opinion.

The same goes for me.

Some may question my standards....but this is a no brainer...if one has good ole common sense. Mumms the word!...steve

It's a little late, but I would like to add I know something about Stand Watie.  He was not a plains Indian and was not present when Pike came to Ft. Cobb to meet with the Plains tribes.  Watie was a Cherokee, considered one of the five civilized tribes.  Forts were built in what is now Oklahoma to PROTECT the five civilized tribes from plains raiders.  Completely different cultures, with completely different outlooks and political agendas, even to a certain extant today.  As far as my plains cousins were concerned, when the white man's war started, there were less soldiers on the plains and a better opportunity to wreak havoc and have a good old time with the intruders in their country.  (They considered the five civilized tribes intruders, also.) (Gee, all Indians didn't stick together?) If things worked really well, maybe all the white folks would kill each other and never come back.

Perhaps Stan Watie  fought with the CSA because the USA government STOLE the lands belonging to the Cherokee in the Carolinas and north Georgia.  Then forced them to march overland (The Trail of Tears) to the Indian Nations where the land was not worth a damn. I know it would have pissed ME off enough to have done that.  The US government did the same thing to a band of Apaches in Arizona;  moved them off of a good parcel of land and put them on a piece of nothing but rock and sand.  As I've said before;  the winners write the history, not necessarily the "Truth".

Perhaps Stan Watie  fought with the CSA because the USA government STOLE the lands belonging to the Cherokee in the Carolinas and north Georgia.  Then forced them to march overland (The Trail of Tears) to the Indian Nations where the land was not worth a damn. I know it would have pissed ME off enough to have done that.  The US government did the same thing to a band of Apaches in Arizona;  moved them off of a good parcel of land and put them on a piece of nothing but rock and sand.  As I've said before;  the winners write the history, not necessarily the "Truth".

The white man did that in a lot of states, not just 3 or 4.

KK,  I love the story of the Osage Tribe that were moved off of really good land in southeast Kansas and settled on land in northeast I.T. that had nothing but stones and buffalo grass.  According to the book written by their first Indian Agent, many died of starvation.  Weeeellllll.  When oil was discovered in the northeast area of OK, guess who's land sat on the largest pool.   Heh, Heh.  Talk about karma.     And the great white liar couldn't think of a way to move them off of that land and steal the oil.   

And what does this line of thought have to do with the subject of this thread?  Simply this;  in researching treasure caches, never ever take the "official" reports as gospel.  Keep researching and look for the private diaries and letters written by the participators in the stories. 

Shortstack,

Amen to that brother!
I know of two recovered treasures that were found from maps in old Bibles.
One treasure was only a few hundred silver dollars. The other...well, I can't talk about that one, hehe.

TW

Hey, TWolf.  How're ya doing?  I recently was told of a treasure lead given by a spirit through a Ouija Board.  The person who received the info was related, by marriage, to the person who died and who's spirit was doing the communicating.  The person was told almost exactly where the cache is buried and to whom the money is to go.  I have been asked to help do the recovery, which I will definitely enjoy. 

Now, a naysayer will jump in and yell for "proof".  There was absolutely no doubt that the spirit was who it claimed to be, through questions, answers, and comments that were made. 

Someone could rightly ask why I haven't posted this on the Paranormal Section.  Perhaps I will, after the recovery, but for now, I'm simply using this info to further prove that good, reliable treasure leads and info can come from ANYWHERE at ANYTIME from ANYONE.  You just have to be ready to recognize it.

That's very interesting shortstack.  Did you ever read Marc Austin's (Tnet founder) story?  If you haven't , you will definitely find it interesting.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,28494.0.html



SWR, we have all come to know you think you have "higher standards" than the rest of us here.  But as you stated, that's just your opinion.   

Boattow

[by name]

Boattow, I read Marc's story a couple of years ago and had forgotten it.  My friend's experience with the family spirit deals with family property and a specific family member who is supposed to get the buried items.  The spirit called another individual a thief, by name and was very unhappy about that.  That is one reason the spirit is so insistant about his other named family member getting that buried container.  The spirit described the hiding spot to within a 100 sq. foot area.  I cannot go to the place alone because the local constabulary do not know me, but my friend is known to them as a member of the current owners' family.  This is in an area where strangers would be noticed.  I will be armed when we go just in case that thief shows up and wants to participate.  With what that person got away with, he should be shot anyway.  But, at least we know that he wasn't nearly as smart as he thought he was.  His slick manipulations didn't turn out quite as well as he'd planned;  which means he might still try to get a little "som'n, som'n" on this final situation.  I will not allow that to happen.  This person is a living, breathing example of what a scumbag really is.   

Hey Shortstack,

I am doing well, thank you.
I have no doubt that accurate information can be derived through a Ouija board.
Sold as a game or toy, but they are much more than that.
I would be happy to give you my thoughts on them on my personal page or email, but not here.

Do me this one favor friend...talk with me on the phone before you go to this place.

TW

I read back and saw my name was used in vain.  I did not post an inaccurate message, Texas Jay.  Perhaps if you visited with native folks or were related to them, it would help your research.  Stand Watie, whose Indian name was de-ga-ta-ga (more or less; we don't speak Cherokee well but know Chahtah), which means stands, or standing there or something close, was a signer of the New Echota treaty.  He supported removal.  It was a wonder he wasn't killed for that, cause most of the other supporters were, and he should have been, as far as many of us are concerned.  The civilized tribes were a completely seperate population from the plains tribes, and the Kiowas and Comanches listened politely and told Albert Pike to go to hell.  There is no valid historical record or oral histories of the plains tribes aiding the confederacy, or being masons, or belonging to the KGC, or burying gold caches.  Sorry.  If you can prove me wrong, not by something in a book written by white people, I'll be the first to concede defeat.

Now, isn't THAT strange?  I just had to log in again and I did NOT log out.  ?

Tom, I got your email and will do.   Not tonight, though. 

 

No proof of a KGC treasure (in Oklahoma)?  I suggest all the naysayers spend a little time googling the name Michael Griffith and KGC and perhaps throw in "Wells Fargo safe" and "gold coins" and see what you come up with.   
~Texas Jay

Indian cavalry
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_cavalry
Indian cavalry is the name collectively given (for lack of a better one) to the Midwest and Eastern American Indians who fought during the American Civil War, most of them on horseback and for the South.

The Cherokee Braves Flag, as flown by Stand Watie.
Scales'/Fry's Battalion of Cherokee Cavalry
Meyer's Battalion of Cherokee Cavalry
Cherokee Battalion of Infantry
Second Cherokee Artillery
Contents

1 Chickasaw Nation
2 Choctaw Nation
3 Creek Nation
4 Seminole Nation
5 Osage Cavalry Battalion
6 Native American units in the US Armed forces
7 See also
8 External links
Chickasaw Nation

First Regiment of Chickasaw Infantry
First Regiment of Chickasaw Cavalry First Colonel: William L. Hunter
First Battalion of Chickasaw Cavalry
Shecoe's Chickasaw Battalion of Mounted Volunteers
Choctaw Nation

First Regiment Choctaw & Chickasaw Mounted Rifles
First Regiment of Choctaw Mounted Rifles
Deneale's Regiment of Choctaw Warriors
Second Regiment of Choctaw Cavalry
Third Regiment of Choctaw Cavalry
Folsom's Battalion of Choctaw Mounted Rifles
Capt. John Wilkin's Company of Choctaw Infantry
Northwest Frontier Command of Indian Territory
Creek Nation

First Creek Mounted Rifles - Col. Daniel N. McIntosh, Commanding
Co. A - 2nd Lt. William McIntosh
Co. C - Capt. William F. McIntosh, Commanding
Co. G - Capt. William H. McIntosh, Commanding
Co. G - 2nd Lt. A.H. McIntosh
Second Creek Mounted Rifles - Lt. Col. Chilly McIntosh, Commanding
Seminole Nation

First Battalion Seminole Mounted Volunteers
First Regiment Seminole Mounted Volunteers
Osage Cavalry Battalion

First Commander: Major Broken Arm [1][2]
Native American units in the US Armed forces

Indian Home Guard (American Civil War)

See also

Albert Pike
Battle of Chustenahlah
Battle of Chusto-Talasah
Battle of Pea Ridge
Battle of Round Mountain
Benjamin McCulloch
Billy Bowlegs
Cherokee Nation Warriors Society
Douglas H. Cooper
Ely S. Parker
First Confederate Congress
Fort Smith Council
Halleck Tustenuggee
James G. Blunt
John Rollin Ridge
Keetoowah Nighthawk Society
Lewis Downing
Lumbee
Murrell Home
Opothleyahola
Richard Montgomery Gano
Sam Sixkiller
Samuel B. Maxey
Second Confederate Congress
Confederate Government Civil War units: Indian cavalry
External links

LewRockwell.com article on the Cherokee Nation and the CSA
Source page, used with permission from the author
Native American CSA Records
http://juntosociety.com/native/black_dog.htm
Stand Watie Civil War Regiment Roster
http://www.us-data.org/us/minges/keetoodi.html
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_cavalry"
Categories: Confederate States of America | Cherokee tribe | Native American history | Oklahoma in the American Civil War | Arkansas in the American Civil War | Bleeding Kansas | Native Americans in the Civil War | Irregular forces of the American Civil War
This page was last modified on 20 August 2009 at 06:22.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of Use for details.
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Knights_of_the_Golden_Circle
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,284538.0.html

Why the Cherokee Nation Allied Themselves With the Confederate States of America in 1861
by Leonard M. Scruggs
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/scruggs4.html
       
Many have no doubt heard of the valor of the Cherokee warriors under the command of Brigadier General Stand Watie in the West and of Thomas’ famous North Carolina Legion in the East during the War for Southern Independence from 1861 to 1865. But why did the Cherokees and their brethren, the Creeks, Seminoles, Choctaws, and Chickasaws determine to make common cause with the Confederate South against the Northern Union? To know their reasons is very instructive as to the issues underlying that tragic war. Most Americans have been propagandized rather than educated in the causes of the war, all this to justify the perpetrators and victors. Considering the Cherokee view uncovers much truth buried by decades of politically correct propaganda and allows a broader and truer perspective.

On August 21, 1861, the Cherokee Nation by a General Convention at Tahlequah (in Oklahoma) declared its common cause with the Confederate States against the Northern Union. A treaty was concluded on October 7th between the Confederate States and the Cherokee Nation, and on October 9th, John Ross, the Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation called into session the Cherokee National Committee and National Council to approve and implement that treaty and a future course of action.

The Cherokees had at first considerable consternation over the growing conflict and desired to remain neutral. They had much common economy and contact with their Confederate neighbors, but their treaties were with the government of the United States.

The Northern conduct of the war against their neighbors, strong repression of Northern political dissent, and the roughshod trampling of the U. S Constitution under the new regime and political powers in Washington soon changed their thinking.

The Cherokee were perhaps the best educated and literate of the American Indian Tribes. They were also among the most Christian. Learning and wisdom were highly esteemed. They revered the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution as particularly important guarantors of their rights and freedoms. It is not surprising then that on October 28, 1861, the National Council issued a Declaration by the People of the Cherokee Nation of the Causes Which Have Impelled them to Unite Their Fortunes With Those of the Confederate States of America.

The introductory words of this declaration strongly resembled the 1776 Declaration of Independence:

"When circumstances beyond their control compel one people to sever the ties which have long existed between them and another state or confederacy, and to contract new alliances and establish new relations for the security of their rights and liberties, it is fit that they should publicly declare the reasons by which their action is justified."

In the next paragraphs of their declaration the Cherokee Council noted their faithful adherence to their treaties with the United States in the past and how they had faithfully attempted neutrality until the present. But the seventh paragraph begins to delineate their alarm with Northern aggression and sympathy with the South:

"But Providence rules the destinies of nations, and events, by inexorable necessity, overrule human resolutions."

Comparing the relatively limited objectives and defensive nature of the Southern cause in contrast to the aggressive actions of the North they remarked of the Confederate States:

"Disclaiming any intention to invade the Northern States, they sought only to repel the invaders from their own soil and to secure the right of governing themselves. They claimed only the privilege asserted in the Declaration of American Independence, and on which the right of Northern States themselves to self-government is formed, and altering their form of government when it became no longer tolerable and establishing new forms for the security of their liberties."

The next paragraph noted the orderly and democratic process by which each of the Confederate States seceded. This was without violence or coercion and nowhere were liberties abridged or civilian courts and authorities made subordinate to the military. Also noted was the growing unity and success of the South against Northern aggression. The following or ninth paragraph contrasts this with ruthless and totalitarian trends in the North:

"But in the Northern States the Cherokee people saw with alarm a violated constitution, all civil liberty put in peril, and all rules of civilized warfare and the dictates of common humanity and decency unhesitatingly disregarded. In the states which still adhered to the Union a military despotism had displaced civilian power and the laws became silent with arms. Free speech and almost free thought became a crime. The right of habeas corpus, guaranteed by the constitution, disappeared at the nod of a Secretary of State or a general of the lowest grade. The mandate of the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court was at naught by the military power and this outrage on common right approved by a President sworn to support the constitution. War on the largest scale was waged, and the immense bodies of troops called into the field in the absence of any warranting it under the pretense of suppressing unlawful combination of men."

The tenth paragraph continues the indictment of the Northern political party in power and the conduct of the Union Armies:

"The humanities of war, which even barbarians respect, were no longer thought worthy to be observed. Foreign mercenaries and the scum of the cities and the inmates of prisons were enlisted and organized into brigades and sent into Southern States to aid in subjugating a people struggling for freedom, to burn, to plunder, and to commit the basest of outrages on the women; while the heels of armed tyranny trod upon the necks of Maryland and Missouri, and men of the highest character and position were incarcerated upon suspicion without process of law, in jails, forts, and prison ships, and even women were imprisoned by the arbitrary order of a President and Cabinet Ministers; while the press ceased to be free, and the publication of newspapers was suspended and their issues seized and destroyed; the officers and men taken prisoners in the battles were allowed to remain in captivity by the refusal of the Government to consent to an exchange of prisoners; as they had left their dead on more than one field of battle that had witnessed their defeat, to be buried and their wounded to be cared for by southern hands."

The eleventh paragraph of the Cherokee declaration is a fairly concise summary of their grievances against the political powers now presiding over a new U. S. Government:

"Whatever causes the Cherokee people may have had in the past to complain of some of the southern states, they cannot but feel that their interests and destiny are inseparably connected to those of the south. The war now waging is a war of Northern cupidity and fanaticism against the institution of African servitude; against the commercial freedom of the south, and against the political freedom of the states, and its objects are to annihilate the sovereignty of those states and utterly change the nature of the general government."

The Cherokees felt they had been faithful and loyal to their treaties with the United States, but now perceived that the relationship was not reciprocal and that their very existence as a people was threatened. They had also witnessed the recent exploitation of the properties and rights of Indian tribes in Kansas, Nebraska, and Oregon, and feared that they, too, might soon become victims of Northern rapacity. Therefore, they were compelled to abrogate those treaties in defense of their people, lands, and rights. They felt the Union had already made war on them by their actions.

Finally, appealing to their inalienable right to self-defense and self-determination as a free people, they concluded their declaration with the following words:

"Obeying the dictates of prudence and providing for the general safety and welfare, confident of the rectitude of their intentions and true to their obligations to duty and honor, they accept the issue thus forced upon them, unite their fortunes now and forever with the Confederate States, and take up arms for the common cause, and with entire confidence of the justice of that cause and with a firm reliance upon Divine Providence, will resolutely abide the consequences.

The Cherokees were true to their words. The last shot fired in the war east of the Mississippi was May 6, 1865. This was in an engagement at White Sulphur Springs, near Waynesville, North Carolina, of part of Thomas’ Legion against Kirk’s infamous Union raiders that had wreaked a murderous terrorism and destruction on the civilian population of Western North Carolina. Col. William H. Thomas’ Legion was originally predominantly Cherokee, but had also accrued a large number of North Carolina mountain men.    On June 23, 1865, in what was the last land battle of the war, Confederate Brigadier General and Cherokee Chief, Stand Watie, finally surrendered his predominantly Cherokee, Oklahoma Indian force to the Union.

The issues as the Cherokees saw them were 1) self-defense against Northern aggression, both for themselves and their fellow Confederates, 2) the right of self-determination by a free people, 3) protection of their heritage, 4) preservation of their political rights under a constitutional government of law 5) a strong desire to retain the principles of limited government and decentralized power guaranteed by the Constitution, 6) protection of their economic rights and welfare, 7) dismay at the despotism of the party and leaders now in command of the U. S. Government, 8) dismay at the ruthless disregard of commonly accepted rules of warfare by the Union, especially their treatment of civilians and non-combatants, 9) a fear of economic exploitation by corrupt politicians and their supporters based on observed past experience, and 10) alarm at the self-righteous and extreme, punitive, and vengeful pronouncements on the slavery issue voiced by the radical abolitionists and supported by many Northern politicians, journalists, social, and religious (mostly Unitarian) leaders. It should be noted here that some of the Cherokees owned slaves, but the practice was not extensive.

The Cherokee Declaration of October 1861 uncovers a far more complex set of "Civil War" issues than most Americans have been taught. Rediscovered truth is not always welcome. Indeed some of the issues here are so distressing that the general academic, media, and public reaction is to rebury them or shout them down as politically incorrect.

The notion that slavery was the only real or even principal cause of the war is very politically correct and widely held, but historically --deleted--. It has served, however, as a convenient ex post facto justification for the war and its conduct. Slavery was an issue, and it was related to many other issues, but it was by no means the only issue, or even the most important underlying issue. It was not even an issue in the way most people think of it. Only about 25% of Southern households owned slaves. For most people, North and South, the slavery issue was not so much whether to keep it or not, but how to phase it out without causing economic and social disruption and disaster. Unfortunately the Southern and Cherokee fear of the radical abolitionists turned out to be well founded.

After the Reconstruction Act was passed in 1867 the radical abolitionists and radical Republicans were able to issue in a shameful era of politically punitive and economically exploitive oppression in the South, the results of which lasted many years, and even today are not yet completely erased.

The Cherokee were and are a remarkable people who have impacted the American heritage far beyond their numbers. We can be especially grateful that they made a well thought out and articulate declaration for supporting and joining the Confederate cause in 1861.

PRINCIPAL REFERENCES:

Emmett Starr, History of the Cherokee Indians, published by the Warden Company, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 1921. Reprinted by Kraus Reprint Company, Millwood, New York, 1977.
Hattie Caldwell Davis, Civil War Letters and Memories from the Great Smoky Mountains, Second Edition published by the author, Maggie Valley, NC, 1999.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Knights_of_the_Golden_Circle
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,284538.0.html


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Knights_of_the_Golden_Circle
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,284538.0.html

Osage - Chief Black Dog
http://juntosociety.com/native/black_dog.htm
American Indians of the Mid - West
Black Dog

The young Black Dog was reported to be about 6 foot, 2 inches, in height and weighed around 220 pounds. He did marry and had several sons and daughters. None of his sons survived to manhood. During the War Between the States (Civil War), Black Dog and many of the Osage Indians decided to join the Confederate States Army.

Some of the Osage Indians joined the 9th Kansas Volunteers as Union supporters, but they were determined to be too wild and untrainable for military service. They were discharged from Kansas military service. In 1861 about 50 Osage Indians joined Colonel Tom Livingston's Missouri Home Guards and fought with General Price at Wilsons Creek.

Osage - Chief Black Dog
By Don Wise

Black Dog or Zhin-ga'wa-ca (Manka-chonkah) was an Osage Indian born circa 1780 near what later became St. Louis, Missouri. Zhin-ga'wa-ca is a very old Indian name which is not translatable since the last part is archaic and the meaning lost. The Osage Indians are descendants of the Siouan Tribe. They originally came from the Alleghaney and Monogahela River Valleys. When Zhin-ga'wa-ca was young, he lost his left eye in a childhood accident. He grew to be seven (7) feet tall and weighed around 300 pounds.

During a raid upon a Comanche camp, a small, black dog started barking and Zhin-ga'wa-ca shot an arrow in the direction of the dog which killed it. Thereafter, he was known by the name of Black Dog. Later Black Dog was named chief of his tribe which became known as the Black Dog Tribe. Their camp was located in the vicinity of where the city of Coffeyville, Kansas, is now located. The Osages were a migratory tribe which would plant corn in an area, then go hunting for buffalo. Once they had their capacity of  buffalo meat and hides, the tribe would return to their camp area where the corn had been planted and harvest it. Their trail in southern Kansas became known as the Black Dog Trail.

Black Dog Married Menanah, an Osage Woman
They had a son in 1827 who became known as Black Dog, the second

Black Dog and some of his tribe did join the 1st Osage Battalion, C.S.A. around 1862 whose commander was Major Broke Arm. This military unit was composed of three companies. Black Dog served as a Captain of Company B. Military records are incomplete on their activities, but we believe that this unit was involved at Pea Ridge and Prairie Grove.

Chief Black Dog and Bighill Joe

Black Dog was elected Principal Chief of the Osages in 1880 and died in 1910. A creek near Hominy is named Black Dog Creek and a township in Tulsa County , Oklahoma, is named Black Dog Township.

George Catlin, the artist, painted Chief Black Dog in 1834. The artist, John Mix Stanley, painted Chief Black Dog in 1843, but this portrait was lost during a fire in the Smithsonian Institute in 1866. Black Dog died on 24 March 1848 at the age of about 68 years old.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Knights_of_the_Golden_Circle
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,284538.0.html

I don't know if I missed something in the previous posts, but if someone thinks that there were no American Indians in the Civil War, then I would have to disagree.

Back in the late 1990's I was invited to a Oklahoma Historical Society dig at the Battle of Honey Springs in S.E. OK.
One of the artifacts that I recovered was a small saddle stirrup. The on site historian was quite excited by my find because it proved to him that American Indians were part of this battle!

Anyway, I may have misunderstood someones post. If I did, I apologise.

Timberwolf

Naw, timberwolf, it wasn't a dispute about Native Americans fighting in the war; everyone agrees on that.  It was about their alleged KGC affiliation.  Which all somehow came about from asking for proof of a KGC treasure.  Being from Oklahoma, I know a little about Michael Griffith, too.  I thought he was more after Jesse James treasure and not KGC.  There was some talk about him trespassing into areas without permission also, but might be allegations made by jealous competitors.

RGINN,

OK, thanks.
I don't know much about Griffith. He has a website about the KGC and has videos and such for sale.
I have emailed him twice, but he has never responded.
I am guessing that this is the same Griffith that was once Bob Brewer's partner?
BTW, I'm an Okie myself.

TW

Could be Bob Brewer's partner at one time.  I had heard he was known for going into areas without the permission or knowledge of the land owner.  If that's true, that's a bad deal.  I didn't research that on the internet or read it in a book; just what I heard from real people.  And we all know how unreliable they can be, not to mention what a drag it is to actually go out in the real world and talk to real people.

Yankee newspaper accounts dated 1864.  This page contains some excellent wartime accounts including several about the Indians and also the PawPaw militia and the Knights of the Golden Circle.

http://www.uttyler.edu/vbetts/leavenworth_times_64.htm 

~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

Well, I'll hit it one more time.  I wanted to make it plain the difference between the eastern tribes and the plains tribes.  The eastern tribes were slave owners and had plantations, the rich mostly white ones anyway, so their interests would lay with the south.  The Plains Indians pretty much didn't care one way or the other, and their interests lay with where the most fun was, and if the soldiers were gone all the better.  'Carbine & Lance' by Wilbur S. Nye is an excellent reference book written by a guy who actually interviewed the principals and the children of the principals involved in the era of the Plains Indians after the arrival of the white soldiers.  Texas Jay and cccalco probably already have this book, but if you guys don't, next time I go to Oklahoma I will get copies and mail them to you.  And although I do argue, I do appreciate the posts of Texas Jay and cccalco and pay attention to them.  If I do find the KGC treasure, I promise to post it here, but under an assumed name, like Plehbah, maybe.

RGINN, I'll be glad when you can get back to this part of Oklahoma for a visit. I think every treasure hunter from Oklahoma should read Carbine and Lance. It should be required reading for school kids in southwest Oklahoma.

We've gotten way off track of the original thread. It's obvious that there will be no proof of a KGC treasure posted on here. Those who believe in them will continue to do so, and those of us who don't never will without verifiable proof.

I have hunted with people in the past who are crazy for the KGC and from what I have observed is that they can make any treasure site into a KGC cache. In two places it was painfully clear they were of Spanish/Mexican origin, but those with me only considered them KGC. I've started posting on our blog newspaper articles from the 1850's and 60's that deal with the KGC. Hopefully people will realize that they weren't the super secret, super effective organization people are claiming.

http://okietreasurehunter.blogspot.com/

It's not that the group was super secret.  It's just that they were stashing billions in treasure that was super secret. 

Do I have proof of a KGC treasure?
No.

But if I did, I wouldn't post it here.
If for no other reason...I refuse to give SWR what he is allways asking for..."proof".

Timberwolf

A Native American in the  Third Degree of the KGC? I think not! This is from their (KGC) own set of bylaws:

I will oppose to the utmost of my ability, and never consent, but vote against the admission of any confirmed drunkard, professional gambler, rowdy, convict, felon, abolitionist, negro, INDIAN, minor, idiot, or foreigner, to membership in this department of the KGC. But I will get as many good and eligible Southern-born men to join this Degree as I can.

This would mean that if there were any Natives in the KGC they never rose to any rank within the organization.

if there were any Natives in the KGC

       ><>+IX~LLL+~O ~NDN~ O~+777~XI+<><
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,284538.0.html

Here are two reports of KGC treasure finds which should be helpful to members who are interested in learning more about the KGC.

Michael Griffith:

http://74.6.146.127/search/cache?ei...us&sig=N4SFGEykdAtK6JURbZK.7Q--

***
Passage from above article:

"...One treasure hunter, Poteau, Oklahoma resident Michael Griffith unearthed from the
property a Colt pistol and an old snuff jar filled with gold coins and silver dollars dating
1844-1880. The Gillespie sisters maintain that Griffith did so without permission and
continues to sell the photographs garnered from their property to sell on his website
www.outlawtreasure.worldbreak.com as examples of Knights of the Golden Circle
(KGC) signs and symbols as a treasure hunter’s guide.
Bob Brewer, a treasure hunter who accompanied Griffith to the site and helped decipher
the codes, maintains Griffith led him to the Gillespie ranch on the pretense that
permission had been garnered from the owners. Brewer, along with Bloomberg News
editor-at-large Warren Getler, recently co-authored a book, Shadow of the Sentinel
(available via Amazon.com), with one chapter dedicated to the Gillespie ranch. Getler, at
first skeptical, was convinced after visiting the Wapanuka ranch, that it is the site of a
KGC depository..."

***

Bob Brewer:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-...,0,387467.story?coll=la-home-center 

Passage from this article:

"...Along the way, Brewer says, he has unearthed about $200,000 worth of gold and silver coins. It's enough to support his modest lifestyle, and to thumb his nose at those who might think he's just another old coot with a metal detector.

"It's my damn story," he says, "and if they don't believe it I'm not gonna worry about it, damn it. Pardon my French."

Brewer's life is detailed in "Shadow of the Sentinel: One Man's Quest to Find the Hidden Treasure of the Confederacy," a book he wrote with Warren Getler, a former Wall Street Journal reporter.

The authors say their 2003 book, reissued in paperback as "Rebel Gold," sheds new light on the hidden history of the KGC, even as it lays out Brewer's efforts to trace his familial connections to the group and crack the code behind its legendary "depositories."..."

***

~Texas Jay

Jay,

Actually Brewer's book "Rebel Gold", is word for word, page for page, the same as his earlier book "Shadow of the Sentinel".
Rebel Gold does not shed any "new" light on anything!

That is the only thing that Bob Brewer has done that makes me unhappy.
I think it was wrong to repackage an old book with a new name, just to sell it.

I bought Rebel Gold thinking it was something new on the KGC front.
When I got home and realized it was no different than his other book...I took it back to Hastings, and got my money back.

Timberwolf

Hi Tom.  I have tried to always state that the two books are the same whenever I refer someone to read it but sometimes I overlook that as I never read "Shadow of a Sentinel", the older version.  I only read the new paperback "Rebel Gold".  Bob Brewer had his reasons for changing the name and they weren't to trick people into buying the same book.  This book is now in its third printing with no end in sight.  The pages in my copy are beginning to show signs of wear because I refer to it and its excellent bibliography so often.  If I had a copy of the book under its original title, I would not use it because it will probably become much more valuable with time. 
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

Jay,

I have all three both of Bob's books...in pristeen condition.

TW

Hi Timberwolf.  That's great news.  The first book and "Shadow..." are probably already worth much more than you paid for all three and will only get more valuable as more people realize what treasures are in them. 
~Texas Jay

Back to the original question of this thread...

What kind of PROOF are you looking for?

Would the treasure need to be in gold coins or bars?
If so, how many coins or bars would be needed for you to be satisfied that it is a large amount?
As best I can tell, this has never been established in these forums.
Weather you believe the KGC buried large amounts of treasure or not, I would think that it is important to both sides...how much constitutes a "large" amount?

Timberwolf

Hi Timberwolf.  This is a very good question that needed to be asked.  I think the intent of the creator of this topic was to find out if ANY KGC treasure had been found and, if so, could they be proven.  Somewhere along the line, after a lot of "KGC treasures", from smaller "marker" caches, were documented on this thread and others like it, the naysayers changed the subject to proving that "massive amounts" of treasure had been buried and found.  Like we've discussed before, the "massive amounts" are the depositories.  The finders of a few of these have kept silent about them for obvious reasons.  Others have been found but many of them are located on government-owned land and private individuals or companies cannot get permission to recover the treasure in these depositories.  While I disagree some of Pastore's opinions regarding Jesse James and some of the ways he goes about things, Pastore's group will probably be the first to go public with a huge depository recovery.  Then, I believe the naysayers will be very hard to find.  I think that by "massive", the naysayers mean something in the billion-dollar plus range but I will leave that up to them to define.   
~Texas Jay     

Maybe this will answer the question. Have any of you found something like this?

I have more of these maps and all of them are supposed to be KGC. It's funny, but they don't show any small caches. You know, the $200 - $3000 kind. Does that mean without somekind of documentation or artifacts related to the KGC being at the cache site you can still call it a KGC cache, or it is just because you want it to be is good enough to make it so?

When I call a site Spanish or outlaw, I can do so because there is something at the site that makes it so and can be verified. I have had people who have never stepped foot on, or know of what may have been found at the site, automatically call it KGC.

Sorry Texas Jay but Pastore isn't digging anything up.  I'd like to be proved wrong but it was obvious that guy is greatly lacking in many ways.  This is where Alechydell and I completely agree.
Boattow

Jamie,

Thanks for the graphic...that's interesting.
But no, I have not found anything like that.

I have not read any of Howk's writings, so I do not know anything about him.
From what you and Ron have posted, I take it that he was not very honest.

I have only heard from one source, that a treasure similar to your graphic, has been recovered.
The other recoveries that I am familiar with have all been on a smaller scale.
This is why I posed my question.

To me, finding a few gold bars would be a wonderful thing.

Let's face it...if you find some gold bars, who cares weather it was the KGC, or the Spanish that put them down.  
The fact that you found them and that they are yours, should be good.

Tom

Maybe this will answer the question. Have any of you found something like this?

.......................and be STUPID  enough to advertise it??

Sorry Texas Jay but Pastore isn't digging anything up.  I'd like to be proved wrong but it was obvious that guy is greatly lacking in many ways.  This is where Alechydell and I completely agree.
Boattow

I agree.

TW

Guys, as I've said before, I don't need any more proof of the existence of these KGC depositories or the marker caches for that matter and I don't care to try to convince the unbelievers or pretending unbelievers.  I know the location of one KGC depository and the probable locations of two more.  If I wanted to, which I don't, I could take anyone with an open mind and some basic knowledge of the Knights and the Golden Circle to this one certain location and prove to them that it is there and that marker caches have been recovered in years past.  So whether or not Pastore is successful, it will not change what I know is true.
~Texas Jay

Have you ever heard of General Stand Watie, C.S.A. who was the only Native American general in either army?  Cherokee Mounted Rifles? 
~Texas Jay

Whats that got to do with KGC treasure? I believe the question as always is where's the proof?

You won't get any real proof of a KGC cache. You will get vague references and books to read, but no real proof. They will tell you that they know where a cache is, but for some reason they can't recover it, or it was removed years ago. blah,blah,blah............

Sorry Texas Jay but Pastore isn't digging anything up.  I'd like to be proved wrong but it was obvious that guy is greatly lacking in many ways.  This is where Alechydell and I completely agree.
Boattow

Holy crap Hoss, we agree on something?? 

Sorry Texas Jay but Pastore isn't digging anything up.  I'd like to be proved wrong but it was obvious that guy is greatly lacking in many ways.  This is where Alechydell and I completely agree.
Boattow

Holy crap Hoss, we agree on something?? 

This can only mean one thing...the end really IS near.

TW

       

Once again thanks to TEXAS Jay the thread is way of topic. So once again DO YOU HAVE PROOF OF A KGC TREASURE.

BoggyBottom, if I do have or when I ever have proof of a "KGC treasure", you will be probably never know.  Your best hope of being humiliated publicly on this forum rests with Pastore as he wishes to make his KGC finds public knowledge.  I don't share his wish regarding my treasure finds.  Like I've said here many times before, I have nothing I have to prove to you or your scoffer friends. 
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

Scoffer friend, I must be one of those! 

I don't think Boggy will ever have to worry about being humiliated publicly on this forum (or any where else for that matter) by anyone finding a KGC vault, especially by Pastore. Pastore couldn't find his ass with both hands! I'm surprised he could even find the "treasures" he planted for his bogus TV show.

"Alec": How long before Pastore dug up the "paycheck cache" did he bury it and the thick roots they had to cut through to get to the coins?  It must have taken several years for the roots to grow to that thickness so you are saying that Pastore planted the roots on top of the broken jar of coins or that he buried the coins many years previous to re-finding them, giving the thick roots time to grow over it?  Did it take you two full months of working with Pastore to come to your conclusions?
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

"Alec": How long before Pastore dug up the "paycheck cache" did he bury it and the thick roots they had to cut through to get to the coins?  It must have taken several years for the roots to grow to that thickness so you are saying that Pastore planted the roots on top of the broken jar of coins or that he buried the coins many years previous to re-finding them, giving the thick roots time to grow over it?  Did it take you two full months of working with Pastore to come to your conclusions?
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

Texas Jay if I was gonna make a spoof treasure cache to take you to and dig up in front of you dont you think I would dig the hole of to the side and down at a angle. Make the hole the size of the jar and when you dig straight down over the top and no roots would look like they had been disturbed. Just because Pastore out smarted you dont blame the rest of us.

It might just be me but it looked like they were digging in sand and I didn't notice any "thick" roots. In my humble opinion he did a poor job of planting the cache. There were too many issues with the jar and coins.

okie, I suggest you and the others take another look at the "Jesse James' Hidden Treasure" program.  Maybe you will see what most of us clearly saw when we watched it.   
~Texas Jay

I'm afraid I'd have to agree with the "scoffers" on this one.  This looked fake to me on several accounts.  When he looked at the marks on the wall of carvings, and then turned and started counting off paces, that's when it was confirmed to me they had no idea what they were doing.  The KGC didn't do anything by paces.  Everything is layed out in very precise bearings and distances...very accurately.  By the time he said "I don't know how to read the carvings, I rely on my equipment", he didn't have to tell me that because I had already figured it out.  Until they come up with a real long range locater that actually works, you better understand how to read the carvings because you are not going to find it.  One thing I do have to give the guy.  If you want to be a well known treasure hunter, if you want publicity, he's figured out how to do that.  I think there are others around here that want that but haven't been able to make it happen.  Personally I'm not interested in that....yet.
Good luck,
Big Hoss

Jay, you and the cool-aid gang are in the minority on this one. From what I read, in most threads concerning the tv show, people think it was planted. It was just a publicity stunt to drum up some funding.

Well, okie, then I suggest you contact Alec's ole hunting partner Pastore and let him know what you think.  Don't bug me as I am just explaining what I saw and my reasons for believing what I do.  If you didn't see the roots over the coins, then you need new glasses.  If you expect anyone to go public with their KGC treasure finds, then your best bet is on Pastore because I promise you that neither I nor my partner will ever go public with any KGC treasure that we find.  The KGC tunnels under Brownwood, Texas are a different matter.  We offered any qualified group the opportunity to follow this up to its conclusion and no one took us up on it so, when we have the time and the opportunities, we will do it ourselves solely for history's sake.  We won't be writing or selling any books about it and we won't be making any for-profit tv programs about it so we won't be begging for any funds from anyone to do this work.  We will not accept any funds from any source for exposing this KGC tunnel network or for opening them up to the public which will be up to either the City and/or individual private property owners. 
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery   

Jay, whatever you do with the tunnels is your business. If you wanted to profit from them I doubt anyone would blame you. I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with just for the history part of it.

Concerning the tv show, I saw a jar that hasn't been in the ground long. Coins that haven't been buried long either. You saw some roots. Here's a question for you. If I said years ago there were detectors ran over the exact spot that Pastore found the jars and nothing was found at that time, how did it all of a sudden appear?

Jay, did you notice how easily that lid came off the jar? I don't know if you have ever found a buried jar before, but if it has been in the ground for any length of time it's stuck on there like it was superglued. How about that nice clear glass? Didn't seem to have that been buried for a 100 plus year look.

Yes, okie, I have opened many old Mason jars in my lifetime.  On some of them the lids came off quite easily.  On others, not so easily.  Having also been in the antiques and collectible business for many years, I also know that old jars that are buried most of their lifetimes do not change in color.  Only when they are exposed to sunlight for many years, do they take on a purpleish hue or tone.  As for the detectorists having been over the exact same spot where he located the gold and silver coins with the broken jar and not finding anything back then, there could be many reasons as I am sure you know.  One of the most obvious is that they were using searchcoils that were too small to detect at that depth.  Another is that they didn't first pass over the spot with a gpr which Pastore's group did.  Still another is that they did not have enough experience to know that they should dig all targets no matter how weak the signal.  As for the other jars that had no coins, the same reasons could apply or they could have been using detectors with their discriminators tuned too high and, thus, rejected the zinc lids. 
I'm sure you could imagine the hades I'd catch on this and other forums if I tried to make a dime off of the tunnel project from the naysayers.     The same old criticisms would come from the same bunch that has been pestering me for over 5 years now regarding our investigation into the life and death of Bloody Bill Anderson.  They include: "That old Jay Longley is just doing this so he can sell more of the books he's going to write." [If anyone has found such a book in the past 5 years, I'd sure love to see it.]  or "He just wants to be related to someone famous like Bloody Bill Anderson."  [If you knew anything about my dna tests and who it proved I am descended from, you can throw that crazy allegation out the window with the others.] or "Jay Longley has no manners and must be an outcast in his hometown."  [Absolute proven nonsense.  Any one of many Brown County old-time citizens will tell you that outlandish statement is false.  Or, if you would check this town's election records a few decades back, before the Internet, you would find that I have always been quite popular in my hometown.]  So, when you say "If you wanted to profit from them I doubt anyone would blame you.", you've really got to be pulling my leg. 
~Texas Jay

I wasn't talking about the color of the jar. I'm talking about how clear the glass was. Every buried jar I've seen come out of the ground had a haze to it. I was also talking about buried jars having the lids sealed tight, not one from grannys root cellar. A rusty zinc lid doesn't just twist right off, but then again that wasn't a rusty zinc lid they had, was it? Now the ones they found down by the creek sure looked rusty.

 



Texas Jay, you only need to spend a couple of days with Pastore to realize he has no idea what he's doing. It's extremely obvious in the lies that he tells trying to impress people. Maybe you didn't notice the matching uniforms and badge?

As for the "treasure" recovered, Okie is correct, the spot is very sandy and I don't believe there were any roots either. The spot where he "dug up" the coins is on the edge of a hill that is made of sandstone and the edge drops off rather quickly. You seem to talk about the finds and the location like you actually know something when you don't. You haven't been on the site, you don't know what's there as far as carvings or markers, you don't know any of the history of the property, hell, you don't even know Pastore personally but you choose to believe his musings about the KGC even though he is using maps and information from Orvus Howk and the dark recesses of his own mind. Not that it will matter to you at all but I can guarantee that the jar of coins was not there prior to Pastore and his TV show.

I may have only spent a few months with the guy but that's a few month more than what you have. I would think that makes me a little more qualified to talk about how he does things than you. I realize you are never going to change your mind about the KGC but you offer no proof of anything you say so I don't see how you can expect someone to just take your opinion as fact and not have somebody question what you say. Treasure hunting is all about the research and if you blindly follow somebody's lead then that's a mistake. Asking questions and finding the proof is how it works.

I wasn't talking about the color of the jar. I'm talking about how clear the glass was. Every buried jar I've seen come out of the ground had a haze to it. I was also talking about buried jars having the lids sealed tight, not one from grannys root cellar. A rusty zinc lid doesn't just twist right off, but then again that wasn't a rusty zinc lid they had, was it? Now the ones they found down by the creek sure looked rusty.

Well, okie, that jar wasn't "down by the creek" was it?
~Texas Jay

No it wasn't down by the creek but the run off from the bluff would have left it rusty after a 100 + years. 

I wasn't talking about the color of the jar. I'm talking about how clear the glass was. Every buried jar I've seen come out of the ground had a haze to it. I was also talking about buried jars having the lids sealed tight, not one from grannys root cellar. A rusty zinc lid doesn't just twist right off, but then again that wasn't a rusty zinc lid they had, was it? Now the ones they found down by the creek sure looked rusty.

Well, okie, that jar wasn't "down by the creek" was it?
~Texas Jay

That "jar" was at the base of a bluff where there are a set of caves that seep water. The area/sand is almost always moist if not wet becuase of the water from the bluff and the caves. The water is the reason the caves are there.

Zinc doesn't "rust", it corrodes.  There's a difference.
~Jay~

rust or corrode it doesn't matter. Either way the lid doesn't come off very easy.

Corroded zinc comes off much easier than rusted iron.
~Texas Jay

Really? The few jars I've dug up didn't come off easy at all and they were zinc. Not anywhere as easy as the one on the history channel show.

I must admit that I wasn't paying much attention to the lid on the broken jar.  I was too busy enjoying seeing the gold and silver coins being retrieved from beneath the thick roots.     I'll try to pay attention to the jar lid the next time I watch it but I can't guarantee I'll be successful.  There's just something about over 100 year-old coins being dug that just thrills me.
~Texas Jay

I was too busy noticing the bright, clear glass and those shiny coins to notice the "thick" roots. I was also trying to figure out how all those coins got out of the broken jar and scattered in that hole like they were. I have found broken, buried jars but the contents were still pretty much intact. I'll take a look at the video again and see if I can see those roots you love so much.

The silver dollars found in the hole were not all that "bright" and, if you look again at them, you will see they are tarnished a bit just as you would expect circulated silver coins to be that were buried for over one hundred years in a glass jar.  Gold, as I am sure you know doesn't tarnish or corrode so, of course, the gold coins were bright.  They could have been buried a thousand years and retained the same brightness.
~Texas Jay

What I noticed was that when the gold bar was found, Pastore was way too calm.
I would have done well not to wet my pants!
Did he know that it was there (planted), or was he too drunk to care?

All I know is that he sent me an email about his show.
After watching the show I emailed him back.
I for sure did not get the "warm fuzzies" from his response.

TW

The silver coins were definitely too bright or clean to have been in the ground for 100 years or even 50 years, especially that ground. The jar or what was left of it and the lid was way to clean also.

As for the gold bar, they were all too calm and what person uses a metal detector to "verify" that what you have found is gold. Anybody that has used a detector with a meter on it knows they are notoriously incorrect.

Also, if the gold bar was inside the tree why wasn't the tree grown around it? The were digging into a part of the tree where it was open and had been open for many, many years. How does a gold bar that was supposedly buried 100 years ago get into a open part of a tree that isn't even 100 years old?

As an outsider to this thread, but hopefully being open-minded to all theories, it's hard for me to believe the Pastore TV extravaganza is still being seriously discussed here.  There was nothing serious about the episode - it was a blatant cartoon show and certainly did not strengthen the various 'KGC' arguements, IMHO.  Unfortunately for Pastore and his cause, he failed the 'prudent man' test miserably and intrenched himself into the 'bozo' camp. 

I would agree, it is hard to believe it's still being discussed. I guess that "BS" detector you use is working pretty well! 

I would agree, it is hard to believe it's still being discussed. I guess that "BS" detector you use is working pretty well! 

It only hurts when I laugh.

   The older I get, the less "treasure" there is.