Here it is!

Rando ,
 Please don't be irate with Scott . His friends , me included , have cautioned him that he was posting too much . He pulled pics and stopped sharing which prompted a few to start antagonising him in an effort to glean more info . That's what's lead to this minor tiff .
 It will be ok in the end 

Truckinbutch is 110% correct!  I tried to post some pics/proof without giving away the locations or too much info. in order to keep people updated.  However, there was a small group who demanded more proof.  So, instead of posting anything else (proof wise), I have decided it is not worth it, as this small group will not be satisfied until I post everything (which I will NEVER do!).

Posting anything benefits me ZERO!  I was doing it so others could see and b/c I always hated when people would find something and not share it and thought I would share my finds.  As I stated, the true supporters will be kept in the loop and that's it - from here on out.  TBH, the ones who are posting to post this/share that/etc. while stating I am lying if I don't post more, I don't know them from Adam and have nothing to prove to them at all and could care less what they believe about me or my finds.  I have a good group organized now that I trust and we will go about things more secretively from here on out, as the best is yet to come!

And itlooks like they will have to wait for the book.. Me personally, want to see it in person. I have waited and searched for too many years to miss this!

Swiftfan.  I appreciate the days you helped and will be glad to take you back and show you the "finished product" sometime!

I hope you wasn't referring to me swiftsearcher, as id love to see and also maybe help you work your find. The post above was just throwing out some facts on Gist, but by reading this post i can see why your getting upset, heck i would too. The silver mines are real, but of coarse you are going to have people that dought the fact.

L37 claimed to have found the upper mines, just as i have made that same claim, We are in the same general area but our sites are many miles apart, i have yet to see proof of his claim as i have posted a few pics of mine. would love to see his pics and some of yours as well.

Swiftsearcher have you dug out the opening yet and been inside?

You know, I can understand there will be those that will doubt. It's not like there will be a sign there saying "congratulations, you found Swift's lost mine." I mean,after all, we have to go on are stories and the chance the "copy" of the map we have will lead us to treasure. But still we search. There are even rumors that Swift didn't even exist. But still we search. Because to answer the call to adventure and mystery, is one of the best experiences we can have. Isn't everyone a little proud of swiftsearcher for the progress he has made? Me, I am. It wasn't till I found this website that I really started learning about treasure hunting. I think swiftsearcher should keep plugging along, not paying attention to those who scoff.
 Just my thoughts...

-swiftfan-

i agree, and wish swiftsearcher the best..........  waiting on a update of what he's found so far...........   -Ki-

Point well taken.. however, there has been more than one instance where proof has been demanded, and provided to a point. Remember there are at least three other Th's near swiftsearcher including myself. And while we all share info, we do not give exact locations as to protect our own finds. I can understand his wanting to protect his investment. And while inquiries can only help to open up a broader thought of each idea, we cannot let it detract us from our common goal. I welcome ideas whenever they present themself, and appreciate the opinions of others. I guess sometimes we get a little defensive when it comes to our research...

-swiftfan-

Swiftsearcher, I think you are on the right track. Keep going....and don't let anyone hold you back!

Ki, not mad at you at all and believe you might be on the trail of something great at your site as well - keep up the good work.

SWR - It seems you still act like I am providing NO PROOF whatsoever.  Hell, my avatar is the entrance inside the bear den leading back to the mine! 

Swiftfan is correct - I have tried to stay away from posting pics (of the mine entrance in red sandstone on the second ledge and others) that would give away my location........for now.

Swiftfan has been with me more than once to the Rich Mine and can attest that everything lines up to the journals (the hog's head size opening in red sandstone between the second and third ledge, the rock that has fallen from another rock, the tree in the way of the opening is still there, but dead, etc. etc.).   It simply seems like there are a handful here who like to "fish" for more than I am willing to post.  Well, that trick is not going to work, as I am only posting the tip of the iceberg for now and have actually quit posting any information about this site or the KGC vault I found indefinitely!

If by "Proof" you mean hand fulls of Silver Crowns, you will NEVER see that from me!  I was born in the dark, but not last night.  

Dear SWR;
I'll admit that I tend to be a tad skeptical in regards to the ball peen hammer as being proof positive there was acache buried in the immediate vicinity, however this is not to state that an operative did not make the ball peen hammer in the 1860s and constructed it to LOOK like a modern ball peen hammer, which can be purchased at any hardware store across the USA. Those guys were a wily lot and they would have foreseen the obvious hammer connection, therefore it would have been in their best interests to make items which very closely resemble modern tools.
Your friend;
LAMAR

GREAT NEWS!  A member of this site (Seth Robbins) is going to help me excavate the Rich Mine on Monday/Tuesday!  This will be very interesting and answer a lot of questions to say the least.  Was Swift a Pirate?  Was the Rich Mine a Silver Mine OR a GOLD Mine?  etc. etc.

Anyone care to make predictions?

My prediction is that it will be exactly as Swift stated - a mine.  However, we know that Swift made Gold and Silver Crowns and mentioned heaped up GOLD located with the Silver in the Great Cave (or Indian Cave).  Gold is sometimes found with Silver in deposits.  However, during my research, I have quite a bit of info. that points to the Rich Mine containing GOLD and not Silver.  With Gold hovering around a grand an ounce, I know what I want the "pocket" or "seam" in the mine to be.  However, I am leaning 70% Silver and 30% Gold. 

It will also be great to see the actual "pocket" or "seam" that the crew mined (be it Silver or GOLD) and to see how pure it really is.  I am sure many have heard the tales that the Rich Mine is so pure that one can mine the ore with a pocket knife.

Also, not far from the Rich Mine (in fact, on the highest point in the area), is where I found an old dead tree that had GIST carved in it.  We know from Gist's journal that he might have found a Gold Mine and I know from my research that Gist had a definite link to Swift (which I will devote an entire chapter to in my book).  Could the Rich Mine and Gist's "find" be one in the same and be a Gold Mine?

The closer we get to Monday and Tuesday, the more excited I become on finally being able to answer these questions.  Don't worry, I will let everyone know what the mine contains and will even show a pic of the ore (or other find(s)).  This I won't make everyone wait on until my book comes out next year! 

In the meantime (between now and when we remove the 10 ft. of dirt Swift and Co. filled the Rich Mine in with either Monday or Tuesday), I would love to hear everyone's opinions!  What do you guys/gals think we will find?  Will it be a Gold Mine, Silver Mine, Pirate loot they brought in to be melted down, NOTHING, etc.?

BTW - If it turns out to be ORE of some kind (like I believe), we will be having it assayed and I will let everyone here know the content!

Swiftsearcher,
                      I must make a correction with your above post where you mention Gist working the mines with Swift, Gist was not a crew member, or a miner, he was however a survyor. Gist died in 1759 from smallpox.............. you mention above about a carving in a tree of Gist, I belive he did come through your area, i have his map and route i'll post if it will let me...    -Ki-

Ki, I didn't mean to confuse anyone.  I have Gist's journal and know about his surveying.  However, my research has also indicated a "pact" with Swift and Co. (he was NOT a member of the crew nor miner for Swift)!

BTW - I finally found something yesterday with the help of two friends that had puzzled me for a long time!  I found the famous anchor that was on my Swift Map and the one in Henson's book!  I had long wondered about this, if it was a landmark or simply on the maps with some "meaning".  It does exist and is HUGE (one of the reasons I missed it, as I had been there at the rock dozens of times and didn't notice it until yesterday, when one of my friends pointed it out!)!  It was in the precise location it should have been, just as everything else on the map is!

SwiftSearcher,
Good luck, and as your friends said; don't post to much info.
Even though I am curios I think it'll be interesting to see the results!

Good luck.

Wow, this is one of the most exciting threads I've read here.  I live in Flatwoods, KY in the North Eastern corner near WV and OH.  I've deer hunted in Powell county a lot.  And I have always wondered what kind of rich history that area had.  I have throughly enjoyed your post and wish you all the luck.  Keep us updated, I would love to hear more on your progress.

Swiftsearcher,  I know you was not trying to mislead anyone... congrads on finding the anchor by the way. Did you say you found a "G" in the mine? Is masionic!!!  Could be Gist mark as well, worth looking into, you mention him marking a tree, is this near by your site?   Again good luck and let at least some of us know how things turn out for ya.......


Cstration, I see you mention you hunt in powell co. alot, I live in powell co. and have hunted for the upper mines for the last 6 years, i belive i have found some things very important. You are right there is a lot of untold history around here. Along the Red River is where most of the legend came from as indians would alway talk of, and look for a great silver mine.......  -Ki-

Thanks for the PM Ki.  We'll have to get together next time I'm down that way.  Like I mentioned in my PM, I love that area around the Red River.  I have stumbled upon so many cool things in the woods out there.  Interesting rock formations, caves, old oil wells, old abandoned houses, and what appeared to be an old Indian camp.  I had no knowledge of the Swift mines until recently when I got in to MD'ing.  Now that I know about it, I would love to go back down there and look around a little closer.  I'm sure the place where I hunted wasn't any of the Swift locations, but possibly some of the other mines that were around there.  Maybe the French, or old Indian mines.

Swiftsearcher,
                 I hate to keep being a thorn in your side, but feel i must make corrections when the subject may call for it... You mentioned in a post some time ago, i cant find it now, but read that in Swifts rockhouse you mentioned there being molds in the rock that Swift would pour his Silver in to make pigs, i think you also mentioned the hammer you found as well...The molds you may have found are not molds, they are called "Hominy Holes" from the woodland indian period...I noticed you also wrote about an Indian petroglyphs, these were all commen to the indian of that era. The hominy holes were drilled in the large sandstone rocks or floors of the rock shelters. Although they very in size, holes were used to grind seeds and other nuts the indians gathered.....It was thought that these holes were used to grind corn, but corn wasn't known to the indians at that time, but its were it gets the name Hominy hole......    Just a thought....   -Ki-

 Ki,
 I am in no way trying to dispute you . Scott and I disagree on some points as well . I have held the hammer in my hands and agree with him that it is not contemporary manufacture .
 Where I live we find cooking holes in sandstone at Indian encampment areas . Grinding holes , I think , that were handy to a person that wanted to rough cast molten metal would be used rather than
fabricate new devices . Just a thought .
 Jim

Truckinbutch
             
                 I totally understand where your coming from, and totally respect Scott and his research... With the Swift silver mine legend, and me living right in the heart of the Swift lore, i tend to agree to disagree. What i was meaning in the above post was in years past people around here Swift hunting have more than once ran up on the Hominy holes and thought they were molds, alot of history in the rocksheltors were destroyed by treasurehunters digging and sifting. Alot of Indian artifacts where destroyed, I just wanted to let people know of somewhat to look for Swifthunting, and not mistake the historic Indian sites as Swift sites........

Now with the hammer, hummmmmm that's very interesting to say the least...

 I agree with you ,Ki . There are so many cultures crossing paths in this area and so much has been
destroyed by thoughtless greedy folks . We will strive to never become such .
 Food for thought : What was the underlieing reason for so many cultures to traverse this region without any settlements taking root until post Daniel Boone ?

What was the underlieing reason for so many cultures to traverse this region without any settlements taking root until post Daniel Boone ?

Like I've said before, I'm no expert or historian but my best guess would be that the early settlers to Kentucky were farmers and raised livestock.  That would be the reason that Western Kentucky was the part that was settled first because of the flatlands and better soil.  The particular area of Kentucky where the Swift mines are located is not very suitable to either livestock or farming though it can be and is done in some of the valleys and hollers.  It is however full of ore and minerals that some of the later settlers after Boone were very interested in.  I would guess that most of the people who were the first to settle in this particular area were miners and some less desirable outlaws looking to cash in on the rich silver, iron, and lead deposits in the area.  Another reason I would suspect people moved to the Eastern part of the state was for the lumber.  The Eastern part of the state has been referred to as Kentucky's last frontier.  Once the Western and Central parts of the state's resources were being depleted, they came out to the vast wilderness in Western Kentucky to take advantage of the big boom in the lumber industry around that time.  Now I could be way off on my guess, but I would bet that I'm at least partially right.  Some of you that are more knowledgeable on early Kentucky history, please feel free to correct me.

I agree with you ,Ki . There are so many cultures crossing paths in this area and so much has been
destroyed by thoughtless greedy folks . We will strive to never become such .
 Food for thought : What was the underlying reason for so many cultures to traverse this region without any settlements taking root until post Daniel Boone ?

Aww great point you bring up....what many people really don't know, is that the Indian has crossed this land even before the days of Jesus Christ. Many Indian settlements covered the state in diffrent time periods. (Kentucky has a rich archaeological heritage. It spans thousands of years, far longer than many people realize. As recently as the 1930s, this heritage was mostly unknown and unexplored, but now archaeologists know much about Kentucky's prehistory and early history, unfortunately, this information has yet to reach a wide audience..... quote from the introduction of the book "Kentucky Archaeology".
There were many Indian settlements in Ky as far back as the Early Paleoindian period (9'500 BC) Some of the reason the cultures changed was the climate here was very diffrent from today, game moved, and gradually the cultures began to change to easier ways of living through out the years....

What was the underlieing reason for so many cultures to traverse this region without any settlements taking root until post Daniel Boone ?

Like I've said before, I'm no expert or historian but my best guess would be that the early settlers to Kentucky were farmers and raised livestock.  That would be the reason that Western Kentucky was the part that was settled first because of the flatlands and better soil.  The particular area of Kentucky where the Swift mines are located is not very suitable to either livestock or farming though it can be and is done in some of the valleys and hollers.  It is however full of ore and minerals that some of the later settlers after Boone were very interested in.  I would guess that most of the people who were the first to settle in this particular area were miners and some less desirable outlaws looking to cash in on the rich silver, iron, and lead deposits in the area.  Another reason I would suspect people moved to the Eastern part of the state was for the lumber.  The Eastern part of the state has been referred to as Kentucky's last frontier.  Once the Western and Central parts of the state's resources were being depleted, they came out to the vast wilderness in Western Kentucky to take advantage of the big boom in the lumber industry around that time.  Now I could be way off on my guess, but I would bet that I'm at least partially right.  Some of you that are more knowledgeable on early Kentucky history, please feel free to correct me.

Valid contemporary point . I'm talking about the very old monument signs in this remote area that tell everyone to gtfo that have been there for centuries .

Sorry about that.  I was thinking of white settlers.  I believe KI though answered your question a little better and I even learned a little bit from it as well.  There has been some sort of civilization here way before I even thought.

Sorry about that.  I was thinking of white settlers.  I believe KI though answered your question a little better and I even learned a little bit from it as well.  There has been some sort of civilization here way before I even thought.

you are very right about the bluegrass and western part of Ky being settled first, during this time of settlement the Indians were still raiding white settlements, all the way up to around 1800. This is mainly why Ky is called the dark and bloody ground, the Indians tried to fight for there sacred hunting grounds of eastern Ky... your very correct cstraiton

Sorry about that.  I was thinking of white settlers.  I believe KI though answered your question a little better and I even learned a little bit from it as well.  There has been some sort of civilization here way before I even thought.

Yup . I've seen monument carvings that predate many cultures and lead me to beleive that legend made this ground taboo for indigenous inhabitents for hundreds of years until anglo settlers started encroaching on Meleungeons and others .

Ki, I am well aware of the "Honey Holes" you are referring to.  This was different.  The set-up in the rockhouse was so that a large rock had this one hole in it, with a larger rock above it, so something could have been poured into it.  Plus, my "contact" found silver here years ago.  Too bad he sifted the entire rockhouse and didn't leave any "evidence" for me to find however!

The holes in rocks aren't molds...think about it.  How are you going to remove a pig or ingot that's been poured into a depression in a rock?  There's a reason molds are made from sand.  Depressions in rocks were used to crush grains.

Here's a link showing how it's done:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_casting

Making coins was done in a completely different manner and molten metal wasn't used.  The metal was placed between 2 dies with the design engraved into them, then struck with a sledge.

 Thanks , Seth .
 Jim

The coins weren't made from molten metal, they were made using dies.  Also, if the vein was thick and had a high enough content, no smelting would be required.  If the ore were pure enough, you could just take the metal straight from the vein and coin it.  Very little smelting of metals was done in pre-Columbian America, and yet the Indians used silver, gold and copper.  They used the raw metal directly from the vein.
Those holes in the rocks can't be molds, though.  There would be no way to extract the metal from such a mold.  Why would they even use a hole in a rock when sand is readily available in the area?  They wouldn't.

I think your referring to casting beds...... With any old furnace or smelter there are sand casting beds. The casting bed was located under the furnace, the ore and charcoal was loaded from the top. After the ore heated to a certain temp. the metal from the rock would then flow down through the furnace to the casting bed, the casting bed would hold the shape of the molds....

Exactly.  If you use rock to mold molten metal, you'll never get it out.  There are solid molds like bullet molds but they are made of two halves, and you can knock the bullet out by striking the mold, but if you poured liquid metal into a depression in a rock, you'd never get it out.  If holes in rocks were used, you could expect to find a substantial amount of the metal left behind in the surface of the mold cavity.  If you suspect a hole in a rock was used in conjunction with molten metal, look at the hole carefully and there should be quite a bit of the metal left behind.
Sand is and has been the common way to mold molten metals.  It's been done this way for centuries.  Look around your home at things that are large pieces of iron or steel and a lot of them will have the impression of the sand they cast in.

Here is a old iron furnace (smelter) from the mid 1800's i go here often usually during mushroom season..... notice at the bottom in the middle, this is a sand casting bed.....ore goes in the top of the furnace, the metal from the ore flows to the bottom, It takes time for the ore to heat, so there is a dam stone that holds the metal back, until it's time to pull the dam stone back and let the metal flow into the casting bed to the molds.......    The same principle applys to smaller smelters as well.......as in Swifts furnace

after the silver cooled in the molds, he would have had tools with him to reheat the metal for the coin dies he used.......

What was the underlieing reason for so many cultures to traverse this region without any settlements taking root until post Daniel Boone ?

Like I've said before, I'm no expert or historian but my best guess would be that the early settlers to Kentucky were farmers and raised livestock.  That would be the reason that Western Kentucky was the part that was settled first because of the flatlands and better soil.  The particular area of Kentucky where the Swift mines are located is not very suitable to either livestock or farming though it can be and is done in some of the valleys and hollers.  It is however full of ore and minerals that some of the later settlers after Boone were very interested in.  I would guess that most of the people who were the first to settle in this particular area were miners and some less desirable outlaws looking to cash in on the rich silver, iron, and lead deposits in the area.  Another reason I would suspect people moved to the Eastern part of the state was for the lumber.  The Eastern part of the state has been referred to as Kentucky's last frontier.  Once the Western and Central parts of the state's resources were being depleted, they came out to the vast wilderness in Western Kentucky to take advantage of the big boom in the lumber industry around that time.  Now I could be way off on my guess, but I would bet that I'm at least partially right.  Some of you that are more knowledgeable on early Kentucky history, please feel free to correct me.

Valid contemporary point . I'm talking about the very old monument signs in this remote area that tell everyone to gtfo that have been there for centuries .

monument signs? do you mean like the landmarks swift mentions?

to somewhat answer that question, its the same way here in my area....I live in a rough and rugged gorge, 90% of the trails were made to the public in the 1970's. Most of the markers in my area had no access, and people have searched this river ever since Swift tried to relocate the cave....

The coins weren't made from molten metal, they were made using dies.  Also, if the vein was thick and had a high enough content, no smelting would be required.  If the ore were pure enough, you could just take the metal straight from the vein and coin it.  Very little smelting of metals was done in pre-Columbian America, and yet the Indians used silver, gold and copper.  They used the raw metal directly from the vein.
Those holes in the rocks can't be molds, though.  There would be no way to extract the metal from such a mold.  Why would they even use a hole in a rock when sand is readily available in the area?  They wouldn't.

sorry to say hes right, you cant get the metal from the holes   plus you could only use the rock once since you had to bust it to get the metal out.......and it would be a waste of all that beautiful silver........its just FACT!

 I haven't seen the holes in rock that the two of you are debating .
 I have , however , poured molton metal into both hand chisled sandstone molds with no release agent
and soft pine molds to achieve rough casts and had no problem in getting them to release with no loss of metal when cool .
 I think we are having a miscommunication between smelting ore and die striking coinage from smelted ore .
 Jim

He was talking about the holes SS was referring to in the rock house....I see where hes coming from if the hole was carved in the floor of the rock house, you could only use it once, you would have to bust the rock to get out the metal.... if this action was performed there the rock SS is talking about would be busted, or metal would still be in the hole.....  in order to strike coins in dies you wouldn't have to poor the metal in the rock hole, you would just use the metal out of the furnace, but this would be slow and wouldn't make since, cause you risk freezing up the furnace......Swift and crew made bars out of the ore, diffrent sizes, stored and coined later.....but i would say every crew member had a job to do, and id say most of it was carring all of that ore over a good distance to the furnace by the way Swift tells in his journal, this would also be a slow process...Not to mention all the wood it would have took to heat the furnace.....

In order to understand the smelting swift and crew did, i built myself a small smelter (there easy to build if one knows how) and practice melting metals, and re dieing them....  you mention pouring dies, not to disrespect, but swift would have not had all that...he would have had the basic smelting tools with him...........

 Ki ,
 I'm in confusion here . My impression has been that Swift's and Sol Mullen's coins were die struck , not cast .
 Casting ingots of molton metal into any container with outward sloping sides does not require destroying the mold to recover the metal once it has cooled . Then you take the ingot and do what you will with it .

Ki ,
 I'm in confusion here . My impression has been that Swift's and Sol Mullen's coins were die struck , not cast .
 Casting ingots of molton metal into any container with outward sloping sides does not require destroying the mold to recover the metal once it has cooled . Then you take the ingot and do what you will with it .

Ok i was meaning castings pigs and igots from the ore, then from that point coining........hope this helps, didn't mean to confuse

Ki ,
 I'm in confusion here . My impression has been that Swift's and Sol Mullen's coins were die struck , not cast .
 Casting ingots of molton metal into any container with outward sloping sides does not require destroying the mold to recover the metal once it has cooled . Then you take the ingot and do what you will with it .

Ok i was meaning castings pigs and igots from the ore, then from that point coining........hope this helps, didn't mean to confuse

 Let me know when the book hits. It looks like a great read already.

Ki, I am well aware of the "Honey Holes" you are referring to.  This was different.  The set-up in the rockhouse was so that a large rock had this one hole in it, with a larger rock above it, so something could have been poured into it.  Plus, my "contact" found silver here years ago.  Too bad he sifted the entire rockhouse and didn't leave any "evidence" for me to find however!

Truckinbutch this is what we were discussing.......SS mentions a hole in a rock ...... and the debate went on from there........  I don't know if SS was talking about pouring the molten metal in the hole strait from the furnace or not.......I was just describing the basic operation of a smelter.....

(Swiftsearchers book)  I haven't heard any up dates on the book as of yet........ I would very much like to read it as well, seems i have read every book wrote on swift, and even read all of the internet story's too,  Ive run out of things to read and swiftsearchers book sound s like it would be a great read as well........ I am also waiting........   

What we must remember is that Swift had TWO furnaces and furnace rockhouses.  The big one, where the coins were minted was three miles away.  This is the one near the Buffalo and Table Top Rocks, which is closer to the Rich Mine.  From my research, I believe Montgomery worked his magic (making coins) at the one three miles away and the closer one was used to make pigs.

When I have time, I will go through my pics and post a pic of this rock in this furnace rockhouse with the mystery "hole" in it and get everyone's thoughts.  I know for a FACT that silver was found in this rockhouse.  However, I don't know for certain that this "hole" might have been used for the pigs.  It will be nice to get opinions on it.

As for the book, I am not even thinking about it now, as I still have the "vault" to take care of and some more work at the Rich Mine.  Plus, I have to eventually look for the Indian Cave (Swift's storehouse) as well, if it was not transferred to the "vault" by Sue Mundy and Q.  

Truckinbutch, we're "on the same page".  Making ingots is done with molten metal, making coins is done with cold metal.
Years ago, I worked in a factory making engine bearings.  These aren't ball shaped ball bearings, but rod and main bearings in a semi-circle.  One of the machines I operated was called a "coining press" and it die struck (just as you said) stock metal, and coins are now made in the same way, in a huge press. 
I wish I could find an image online of the process of making coins back in Swift's day.  It was a similar process, as you know, except it was done by hand.  Mike Steely's book might have images of this process, but I can't remember.  For those who  saren't familiar, you have two dies, one engraved with a reverse image of the face of the coin and the other with the reverse.  The metal is placed in between and the dies are struck with a sledge hammer.  That's overly simplified, but the point is coins weren't poured into molds.
Ingots were though, and you said you had poured metal into rock molds with no problems.  Can I ask why you didn't use sand?

Sure you can ask . I had about a half ton of tire weights to reduce to manageable dimensions and abundant sandstone on hand . No casting sand and no need for precision . Short time with an air chisel produced self releasing molds in sandstone that could be used over and over again to make pigs . Also used some beer cans , of which I had an abundance , that worked quite well .
 In answer to the unasked question about soft pine : I made a flywheel/crank arm for a 100#power forging hammer with the crank arm attached to the outer rim of a 20"dia x 1 1/4" steel disc . Bandsawed a mold of soft pine to fit the curve of the rim , poured it full of molton lead . Once cooled ,
I bolted the rough casting to the rim and by trial and error trimming balanced the wheel to run like a sewing machine from 0 to 1200 rpm .
 Jim

That's very interesting!  I am surprised there was no sticking especially with a surface like sandstone.  You must be a Dave Gingery fan...

That's very interesting!  I am surprised there was no sticking especially with a surface like sandstone.  You must be a Dave Gingery fan...

Just a igorant country boy that follows his finger to read the Machineries Guide from time to time .
 You can get a glimpse of part of my shop on Timberwolf's page under wolfpack mugshots .
 Jim

What we must remember is that Swift had TWO furnaces and furnace rockhouses.  The big one, where the coins were minted was three miles away.  This is the one near the Buffalo and Table Top Rocks, which is closer to the Rich Mine.  From my research, I believe Montgomery worked his magic (making coins) at the one three miles away and the closer one was used to make pigs.

When I have time, I will go through my pics and post a pic of this rock in this furnace rockhouse with the mystery "hole" in it and get everyone's thoughts.  I know for a FACT that silver was found in this rockhouse.  However, I don't know for certain that this "hole" might have been used for the pigs.  It will be nice to get opinions on it.

As for the book, I am not even thinking about it now, as I still have the "vault" to take care of and some more work at the Rich Mine.  Plus, I have to eventually look for the Indian Cave (Swift's storehouse) as well, if it was not transferred to the "vault" by Sue Mundy and Q.  

Again both furnaces used for the same purpose, removing silver from ore.......they would have coined the silver around their open campfires, the campfires would not only give them light but could reheat and soften the silver bars and ingots if needed for their dies.....would take alot of work carrying ore over three miles, or even a mile to the furnace, all of that ore would of been heavy, and with the mines being connected to the furnaces a trail would have been cut after so much use.

Now comes the question... How big did Swift build his furnaces? I myself believe they built the furnaces almost head high, would be about right for the amount of ore Swift supposedly smelted, any bigger, and the ore would get harder to load in the top of the furnace as well as the wood, also take in to account they were weary of the Indians, the larger the furnace the louder the roar...The furnace i pictured above could be heard for miles.....

SS....a picture might help us understand what your meaning about the rock..........      

what I'm wondering is how they removed the impurities out of the silver just after the smelting process, their would be "ash" and other trace elements........I'm thinking they made the igots just small enough to carry, and just big enough for each to be coined... they cast the bars to store and use later........

What we must remember is that Swift had TWO furnaces and furnace rockhouses.  The big one, where the coins were minted was three miles away.  This is the one near the Buffalo and Table Top Rocks, which is closer to the Rich Mine.  From my research, I believe Montgomery worked his magic (making coins) at the one three miles away and the closer one was used to make pigs.

When I have time, I will go through my pics and post a pic of this rock in this furnace rockhouse with the mystery "hole" in it and get everyone's thoughts.  I know for a FACT that silver was found in this rockhouse.  However, I don't know for certain that this "hole" might have been used for the pigs.  It will be nice to get opinions on it.

As for the book, I am not even thinking about it now, as I still have the "vault" to take care of and some more work at the Rich Mine.  Plus, I have to eventually look for the Indian Cave (Swift's storehouse) as well, if it was not transferred to the "vault" by Sue Mundy and Q. 

I'm in no way trying to dispute you, but you call it the "furnace rockhouse" ....if their was a furnace of any size in that rock house their would be a slag pile very close, with any furnace you'll have waste, which has to be removed or you'll freeze up the furnace.....If the furnace has been removed from the rock house finding the slag (waste) pile would be the only way of proving its in fact the furnace rock house swift spoke about..... a metal detector will not pick up slag, its glass form........and if swift and crew smelted as much silver as they say, their would be a good size pile of slag located very close.....The slag is the key to Swifts furnace rockhouse i would think, funny you never mentioned it.....

Melting out or what was called separating. In Kentucky in the old days, the Indian could melt lead out in a camp fire because of the low melting point. A lot of the minerals mined and worked in this area were in iron ore. The lowest melting point working up to the highest. the miner had to do this in stages. It took a lot of charcoal for this process. They would dump the ore and then regulate the heat, so it would melt out the metal that had the lowest melting point. then after this was done, they would make a hotter fire for the next metal and keep building the fire hotter and hotter till they had melted out most of the ore. they would fix up sand moulds and would use iron pots to catch the run off and then pour the hot metal in to the moulds to cool. They had to regulate the heat because if the fire was to hot they could burn up the metal and lose it. There was a lot of slag, 10 years of mining and don't forget the furnace, just like we use fire brick to line a furnace, it will only stand so much cooking before you have to replace the furnace or the brick. First we have a lot of iron pots, broken tools, slag, a lot of used furnace rock and all the extra metal, lead, copper, nickle and iron, where is all that. where???     

here is the melting points: Lead 621F, Silver 1762F, Gold 1946F, Nickle 2646F and Iron 2786F and that's the reason iron pots were used. it was a long process.   

What we must remember is that Swift had TWO furnaces and furnace rockhouses.  The big one, where the coins were minted was three miles away.  This is the one near the Buffalo and Table Top Rocks, which is closer to the Rich Mine.  From my research, I believe Montgomery worked his magic (making coins) at the one three miles away and the closer one was used to make pigs.

When I have time, I will go through my pics and post a pic of this rock in this furnace rockhouse with the mystery "hole" in it and get everyone's thoughts.  I know for a FACT that silver was found in this rockhouse.  However, I don't know for certain that this "hole" might have been used for the pigs.  It will be nice to get opinions on it.

As for the book, I am not even thinking about it now, as I still have the "vault" to take care of and some more work at the Rich Mine.  Plus, I have to eventually look for the Indian Cave (Swift's storehouse) as well, if it was not transferred to the "vault" by Sue Mundy and Q.  

Again both furnaces used for the same purpose, removing silver from ore.......they would have coined the silver around their open campfires, the campfires would not only give them light but could reheat and soften the silver bars and ingots if needed for their dies.....would take alot of work carrying ore over three miles, or even a mile to the furnace, all of that ore would of been heavy, and with the mines being connected to the furnaces a trail would have been cut after so much use.

Now comes the question... How big did Swift build his furnaces? I myself believe they built the furnaces almost head high, would be about right for the amount of ore Swift supposedly smelted, any bigger, and the ore would get harder to load in the top of the furnace as well as the wood, also take in to account they were weary of the Indians, the larger the furnace the louder the roar...The furnace i pictured above could be heard for miles.....

SS....a picture might help us understand what your meaning about the rock..........      

I will get the pic on here when I go through them again.  

You mention that the furnace could be heard for miles.  THIS, I believe, is why Swift and Co. mostly used the furnace located nearly three miles away from the Rich Mine (and very close to the West Mine), as it was directly beside a large waterfall, which drowned out most of the sound.

As for slag, there is some, not as much as one would expect (still a large amount however), b/c the Silver was suppose to be mostly pure, according to Swift.  Also, the big blockade in the way of reaching the pile at the main furnace (as well as the load of silver buried by the waterfall) is that SEVERAL HUGE ROCKS are now there - from the earthquake of 1811/12.  One can still get inside the rockhouse however.

Melting out or what was called separating. In Kentucky in the old days, the Indian could melt lead out in a camp fire because of the low melting point. A lot of the minerals mined and worked in this area were in iron ore. The lowest melting point working up to the highest. the miner had to do this in stages. It took a lot of charcoal for this process. They would dump the ore and then regulate the heat, so it would melt out the metal that had the lowest melting point. then after this was done, they would make a hotter fire for the next metal and keep building the fire hotter and hotter till they had melted out most of the ore. they would fix up sand moulds and would use iron pots to catch the run off and then pour the hot metal in to the moulds to cool. They had to regulate the heat because if the fire was to hot they could burn up the metal and lose it. There was a lot of slag, 10 years of mining and don't forget the furnace, just like we use fire brick to line a furnace, it will only stand so much cooking before you have to replace the furnace or the brick. First we have a lot of iron pots, broken tools, slag, a lot of used furnace rock and all the extra metal, lead, copper, nickle and iron, where is all that. where???     

here is the melting points: Lead 621F, Silver 1762F, Gold 1946F, Nickle 2646F and Iron 2786F and that's the reason iron pots were used. it was a long process.   

In my area, the tools, iron pots, etc. were found!  There were at least two people I know of whom also tried to hide evidence (destroying most of the large furnace, taking pots, tools, etc.).  One of these persons even helped direct me to the large furnace rockhouse (the one by the waterfall with the large rockhouse 100 yards above it that Swift and Co. lived in).  I, in return, had to metal detect and make sure he did not leave behind any silver (that he had found near where the furnaces were) or other metals.  I did find his old sifter he used to sift through the rockhouses and slag for silver and other metals.  He mostly found spilled silver however, as the silver viens were very pure!

Wouldn't smoke have been a bigger problem than sound?

Ralph and I have discuss this.  We would guess that Swift and Co. only fired up their furnaces at convenient times - when there was no chance of the smoke being seen by Indians (or others, such as Boone, who was following them on some trips).  One would assume that the furnaces were working at night and when one could not see very well at night (not during a full moon or other visible times).

smoke is not a problem, if you know the type of wood to use for heat transfer to the charcoal. once the charcoal is fully ignited the amount of air flow and flux is whats critical. the more air flow the hotter the charcoal will be. they would run test samples of ore. they would start with a vary low heat and slowly raise the temperature until they started getting metal flow and keep going like that, until they had no more metal flow. a sliding piece of sandstone over the air intake with notches would give them a rough idea where to set the stone for each pour. Flux is vary critical, they probably used crushed limestone. think about this, when a camp fire burns down and you have nothing but embers there is no smoke, but if a wind comes up the embers get brighter and of course hotter.

 You still need large amounts of timber to produce the charcoal . Large amounts of smoke in the initial stages of charcoal mfg and the raw signs of timbering .

From my research, Swift and Co. made charcoal the first year of intense mining before they split up and then used coal found nearby the other years.  In fact, there are two ancient coal pits where coal was mined from the top with picks many years ago still in the area that I have found.

smoke is not a problem, if you know the type of wood to use for heat transfer to the charcoal. once the charcoal is fully ignited the amount of air flow and flux is whats critical. the more air flow the hotter the charcoal will be. they would run test samples of ore. they would start with a vary low heat and slowly raise the temperature until they started getting metal flow and keep going like that, until they had no more metal flow. a sliding piece of sandstone over the air intake with notches would give them a rough idea where to set the stone for each pour. Flux is vary critical, they probably used crushed limestone. think about this, when a camp fire burns down and you have nothing but embers there is no smoke, but if a wind comes up the embers get brighter and of course hotter.

Boomer is correct, smoke would not have been a problem......This is where they prepared the wood into charcoal by preburning the wood, they would have used hardwoods that was in the area, hardwood would burn longer than a softwood.  Boomer mentions flux, this is where the furnace would roar when air was added to make the charcoal burn hotter.  Only problem Swift and company would have to worry about was the glow from the furnace and the noise, but no there was no smoke.....picture a charcoal cooking grill, after you get it lit their is no smoke or fire, only glowing embers.......fire is what produces smoke from the chemical reaction in the wood.

You still need large amounts of timber to produce the charcoal . Large amounts of smoke in the initial stages of charcoal mfg and the raw signs of timbering .

Your correct as well, and i have wondered this myself ever since i started studying the Swift legend... It would have taken alot of wood to make the charcoal they would have needed over the 9-10 years they mined and smelted, which means they would of cut many trees down, which the forest would hold the scars of their actions....looks like in the years following swift, if people were hunting for the mines, looks like they would have found the areas where the trees had been removed, and yes when they was preparing the charcoal there would have been alot of smoke....
this one still has me scratching my head.......as i remember Indians saying that only a whiteman would build fires for everyone to see....

Ralph and I have discuss this.  We would guess that Swift and Co. only fired up their furnaces at convenient times - when there was no chance of the smoke being seen by Indians (or others, such as Boone, who was following them on some trips).  One would assume that the furnaces were working at night and when one could not see very well at night (not during a full moon or other visible times).

From my research, Swift and Co. made charcoal the first year of intense mining before they split up and then used coal found nearby the other years.  In fact, there are two ancient coal pits where coal was mined from the top with picks many years ago still in the area that I have found.

IN your first quote, smoke would not have been the problem, no smoke would have came from their furnace...They keep the furnaces running as much as they could, the hard work was transporting the silver ore to the furnace rockhouse, the only time swift mentions Indian attacks are on trips to and from the mines. When the furnace would burn at night you risk being seen by the glowing charcoal in the furnace, and also the sound... Also they would have had a place afar off from their furnace and rock house for the making of charcoal, so not to give away their location. This also would be alot of work carring the charcoal to the furnace, as well as the ore..

your second quote, Swift infact mentions the making of charcoal on his first trip as well as building the furnaces....I have to disagree some about them using coal, They had to make charcoal everyyear in order to keep the smelting process going, they couldn't make enough in one year to support 10 years of mining and smelting.  The problem with coal is it naturally burns hot, alot hotter than wood charcoal...They could control the temperature of the wood charcoal better than they could control the temperature of the coal.....Coal was not used in Swifts furnace.......think about that a min....coal smokes when burnt, usually a black smoke..........no smoke came out of Swifts rockhouse furnace...
This has been a great discussion so far..........I also added a picture of what furnace slag looks like, its a glass form, diffrent sizes and diffrent colors. This may help someone to understand what slag (waste)looks like....  

Not to mention the odor of burning coal.  It's very distinctive.

What do you think Swift & Co. used as a flux in these furnaces?  Limestone is a common flux, but how common is it in the areas where people say they've found Swift's furnaces?  What else could they have used?

Different fluxes, mostly based on sodium chloride, potassium chloride, and a fluoride such as sodium fluoride, are used in foundries for removing impurities from molten nonferrous metals such as aluminum and or silver, or for adding desirable trace elements such as titanium.
 
My opinion Swift and company would have only used what natural resources were readily available, which would have been Limestone!

that's actually a good question...Vamelungeon       There is alot of Limestone around this area, mostly at valley floor levels, the ridge tops are more of a sandstone conglomerate

Swifty,
After a year and a half of stringing folks along with this thread and telling others how they are wrong
and you have found the Rich mine....my only question is "Where's the Beef"?

You claim to have found the mine with the richest silver ore and were betting people any amount between $1,000.00 and $100,000 that your ore will be the purest -  once you get into the mine.....
Well, your in and you got nothing!!!!

A year and a half folks followed your thread hoping that someone can prove that actions speak louder
than words but all we got is a bunch of words. People, self included, wanted you to be succesful in the begining but after so much talk and no proof, not even pics, I think people started writing you off as another looney tune.

You have now moved on to "the vault" and you have a few followers there but I can't help to think that after 1 to 2 years of trying to break into "the vault" you are going to disappear away from that thread too.

I hope you find something but I am guessing the KGC outsmarted you and after they took the riches from the Swift mines and put it into "your vault" along with all the secret codes, holy grails, etc the KGC then moved that repository to another location then spent years covering up and booby trapping an empty vault.

Well, best of luck to you and your followers as I hope something pans out after all this time and energy you put into this.

Makton
has removed all contents in the vault

Hi.

I'm posting a request on this thread that's similar to one I posted yesterday.  Can anyone direct me to photos of Swift's or Mullins' counterfeit coins?

I'd hope they would help establish the type of metallurgic process needed to produce the coins.  Which in turn might suggest what structures or ruins to look for near the site.

Best,

Pam 

Swifty,
After a year and a half of stringing folks along with this thread and telling others how they are wrong
and you have found the Rich mine....my only question is "Where's the Beef"?

You claim to have found the mine with the richest silver ore and were betting people any amount between $1,000.00 and $100,000 that your ore will be the purest -  once you get into the mine.....
Well, your in and you got nothing!!!!

A year and a half folks followed your thread hoping that someone can prove that actions speak louder
than words but all we got is a bunch of words. People, self included, wanted you to be succesful in the begining but after so much talk and no proof, not even pics, I think people started writing you off as another looney tune.

You have now moved on to "the vault" and you have a few followers there but I can't help to think that after 1 to 2 years of trying to break into "the vault" you are going to disappear away from that thread too.

I hope you find something but I am guessing the KGC outsmarted you and after they took the riches from the Swift mines and put it into "your vault" along with all the secret codes, holy grails, etc the KGC then moved that repository to another location then spent years covering up and booby trapping an empty vault.

Well, best of luck to you and your followers as I hope something pans out after all this time and energy you put into this.

Makton
has removed all contents in the vault

Makton, hate to burst your bubble, but there is proof and it will NOT be posted here, b/c of a handful of people, such as yourself.  Only the people I can trust are now associated with the projects and they will be the only ones to know everything.  As for the vault, we are simply waiting on a piece of equipment to help, then we will be inside shortly after.  

We (myself and the people involved) thought that there were too many people fishing for information - trying to provoke me into showing something I shouldn't, so NO DETAILS OF ANYTHING FOUND WILL EVER BE POSTED HERE.

 

 
 Well said , Scott .
 Makton et al ,
 Take your own hand tools and start driving a 3' by 6' tunnel entry 80' through solid sandstone in an attempt to circumvent man made and natural death traps . Remember also that you have to do this in
a clandestine manner .
 Once you have completed the drive , if you start now , you will know why it takes so long .

Rebel,

I just now came across this interesting part on page 176 - link below - about the "Portable Lodge".  I had wondered why the boards above were placed on the floor inside the Bear's Den (which is Beehive shaped) at the Rich Mine of Swift's.  At first, I thought it was to make entrance into the tunnel leading to the mine not so dirty, but it seems that there might have been a different reason!  I admit, this is the first time I have heard of "Tracing the Boards"!  BTW - Ralph did have the boards tested and the prelims are that they are locust from Swift's time - we should have the "official" test results shortly.

Let's see, we have the "G" carved next to the entrance, the boards on the floor, plus some things I found in the inner chamber that has the mine opening - there is DEFINITELY more to the Swift Legend than simply some Silver Mines!

http://books.google.com/books?id=JT...6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

    HA! Got that book... GOOD one!!   The "google" section is "talking" about a LODGE HALL;   it is a TRACING BOARD or TRESTLE BOARD, with the "plan" of the "journey" that a FreeMason is about to "take".  In terms of a "G" above the entrance, it COULD be a LODGE HALL for "traveling lodges", which ARE "portable", as you say.   IF... there is a "G" on the wall of the
cave, (USUALLY in the EAST, with "entrance" in the WEST... SENTINEL outside the "door"/entrance
to prevent "illegal entrance", and a "station", at the SOUTH (NOTHING in the NORTH)... you MAY have a "cave lodge" for "traveling FreeMasons", who MAY have ALSO been Pirates, Knights Templars,
Scot. Co. FreeMasons (aka SCOTTISH RITE).   Are there "stone seats" in the EAST, WEST, & SOUTH?
If there are... BINGO!   You have a "CAVE LODGE"!  "Google" CAVE LODGES FOR FREEMASONS... then,
CAVE DEGREE 4,300,000 "hits".      NOW!  Check THIS
out... http://www.mastermason.com/fmisrael/quarries.html 
        


              

http://cgi.ebay.com/1ST-DEGREE-TRAC...QQptZArt_Prints?hash=item518df303f6

Masonic Tracing Board

http://www.tracingboards.com/

    THANKS, vm!  Those are WONDERFUL "sites";   WOW!   I am reading Dr. Bro. Robert's (Lomas) books, now... TURNING THE SOLOMON KEY, and TURNING THE HIRAM KEY.   The
Trestle Boards are as I remember in MY "home lodge", in the Shenandoah Valley.     SO!  ON to
THE VAULT!!   (WASSAIL!).

   CIPHERS?  VIRGA AUREA     "Google" it...  
THEN... http://www.levity.com/alchemy/images/virga_aurea2.gif  

http://www.tracingboards.com/

Vamelungeon - I know we got off on the wrong foot, but thanks for the links - they are much appreciated!

Rebel - thanks as usual!

BTW - A quick update.  I have not been back to the Rich Mine, since the last day of the excavation.  I do intend to make at least one more trip in the upcoming weeks - to make sure nothing was left and get some pics of the inside chambers (better pics - of the beehive shapes, the "G" and some other things).

Also, even though things had pointed to a Sir Francis Bacon connection here and at the "vault", there always seemed to be an even older presence at these sites (rocks carved that even predated Bacon and Swift).  I believe I might be on the right track to those - The Vandals!  While I have not been out in the field, I have been researching at home and found out that the Vandals (who were a great maritime Israelite people) recognized articles, when they sacked Rome, that the Romans had taken from the Temple in 70AD.  While the Vandals (much like America/Manasseh) had no intentions of holding Rome as a conquered territory, they did take back the Temple items that belonged to the Israelites (whom they were a part).  They then migrated to Northern Africa, were conquered and, with their sailing prowess, came to America, as we know it today. 

I am not stating for SURE that the Temple items are at my site (as I don't know what the heck is there until I finally get inside the vault), but I am 99.9% certain these items were brought to America, as we know it today.  Now, I need to see IF there is a connection between the Vandals and Sir Francis Bacon.  Rebel - anyone? 

I have some books on the way that might help to answer this and need to check the web as well in my spare time.  Bacon DID seem to know much about Israelites that many didn't and don't today, along with the "esoteric".  Maybe he knew somehow of the location or locations that the Vandals hid the items of the Temple?  Maybe he removed them and stored them inside his vaults?  I am confident Washington and other Founding Fathers were aware of these Baconian vaults - maybe this is where Swift and crew came into the picture?  Another Great Mystery in all of this is the "elder" whom "guided" Washington, Franklin and others during the Revolution!   One would think that many of these individuals would be aware of the Significance of anything the Vandals brought here from the Temple.  Could these items have been "rehidden" by Bacon and/or others, for when the Phoenix (America) rises out of the chaos that is coming?  Were these items hidden for evil or for Jesus' 1000 Year Kingdom in America (Israel/Zion)?  There are many questions, and, again, the only way to start to answer any of these is to find one or more of these "vaults" and open it/them.

There might be more to the "Religious tone" in carvings at many of these "KGC sites" than we realize!  Personally, I believe it is more than just KGC members being Religious - the Religious carvings have a DEEPER MEANING! .......more along the lines of telling us the purposes of these caches and WHAT is hidden in some of these vaults/depositories!

BTW - A quick update.  I have not been back to the Rich Mine, since the last day of the excavation.  I do intend to make at least one more trip in the upcoming weeks - to make sure nothing was left and get some pics of the inside chambers (better pics - of the beehive shapes, the "G" and some other things).

Also, even though things had pointed to a Sir Francis Bacon connection here and at the "vault", there always seemed to be an even older presence at these sites (rocks carved that even predated Bacon and Swift).  I believe I might be on the right track to those - The Vandals!  While I have not been out in the field, I have been researching at home and found out that the Vandals (who were a great maritime Israelite people) recognized articles, when they sacked Rome, that the Romans had taken from the Temple in 70AD.  While the Vandals (much like America/Manasseh) had no intentions of holding Rome as a conquered territory, they did take back the Temple items that belonged to the Israelites (whom they were a part).  They then migrated to Northern Africa, were conquered and, with their sailing prowess, came to America, as we know it today. 

I am not stating for SURE that the Temple items are at my site (as I don't know what the heck is there until I finally get inside the vault), but I am 99.9% certain these items were brought to America, as we know it today.  Now, I need to see IF there is a connection between the Vandals and Sir Francis Bacon.  Rebel - anyone? 

I have some books on the way that might help to answer this and need to check the web as well in my spare time.  Bacon DID seem to know much about Israelites that many didn't and don't today, along with the "esoteric".  Maybe he knew somehow of the location or locations that the Vandals hid the items of the Temple?  Maybe he removed them and stored them inside his vaults?  I am confident Washington and other Founding Fathers were aware of these Baconian vaults - maybe this is where Swift and crew came into the picture?  Another Great Mystery in all of this is the "elder" whom "guided" Washington, Franklin and others during the Revolution!   One would think that many of these individuals would be aware of the Significance of anything the Vandals brought here from the Temple.  Could these items have been "rehidden" by Bacon and/or others, for when the Phoenix (America) rises out of the chaos that is coming?  Were these items hidden for evil or for Jesus' 1000 Year Kingdom in America (Israel/Zion)?  There are many questions, and, again, the only way to start to answer any of these is to find one or more of these "vaults" and open it/them.

There might be more to the "Religious tone" in carvings at many of these "KGC sites" than we realize!  Personally, I believe it is more than just KGC members being Religious - the Religious carvings have a DEEPER MEANING! .......more along the lines of telling us the purposes of these caches and WHAT is hidden in some of these vaults/depositories!

What is to become of those items, if they are there and are what you think they are? Just curious.

KK - What does your question mean?  What would I do, if these items were there and I found them?  Or, what do I think their purpose was by the people who placed them there?

KK - What does your question mean?  What would I do, if these items were there and I found them?  Or, what do I think their purpose was by the people who placed them there?

If you find items from the Jerusalem Temple, why were they cached? Are they still to be used for a purpose?

I am sure that IF items from the Temple are cached here and anyone finds them (myself included), that THE EVER LIVING GOD would direct them as to what to "do" with the items.  If they were found, it would be THE EVER LIVING GOD who would have directed them to have been found in the first place.

One guess I have that might be the reason for the items to be found is so that the True Gospel would be preached to the World before the end comes.

MT 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


I do know that during Judgement, according to the following Verse from Revelation, the Ark will be in THE EVER LIVING GOD's Heavenly Temple and NOT on Earth.  IF it is on Earth now, then I am sure THE EVER LIVING GOD will have someone he appoints to find it for HIM and it will be used as told in the Verse below at the appropriate time.

REV 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

I am sure that IF items from the Temple are cached here and anyone finds them (myself included), that THE EVER LIVING GOD would direct them as to what to "do" with the items.  If they were found, it would be THE EVER LIVING GOD who would have directed them to have been found in the first place.

One guess I have that might be the reason for the items to be found is so that the True Gospel would be preached to the World before the end comes.

MT 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


I do know that during Judgement, according to the following Verse from Revelation, the Ark will be in THE EVER LIVING GOD's Heavenly Temple and NOT on Earth.  IF it is on Earth now, then I am sure THE EVER LIVING GOD will have someone he appoints to find it for HIM and it will be used as told in the Verse below at the appropriate time.

REV 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The Gospel HAS been preached as promised, but that is another subject, so I won't go into that.

But do you believe the Jerusalem Temple is to be rebuilt? Do you believe the Temple is to be rebuilt somewhere other than the City of Jerusalem? If Temple items are found, I was just wondering what would become of them. Unless I've misunderstood, you believe these items were hidden away for an endtime purpose, so, in your opinion, would that purpose have anything to do with a new temple?

[IF the Gospel had been preached, as Prophesied, the end would have come already, but, as we are well aware, the end has NOT come!]

I am sure that IF items from the Temple are cached here and anyone finds them (myself included), that THE EVER LIVING GOD would direct them as to what to "do" with the items.  If they were found, it would be THE EVER LIVING GOD who would have directed them to have been found in the first place.

One guess I have that might be the reason for the items to be found is so that the True Gospel would be preached to the World before the end comes.

MT 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


I do know that during Judgement, according to the following Verse from Revelation, the Ark will be in THE EVER LIVING GOD's Heavenly Temple and NOT on Earth.  IF it is on Earth now, then I am sure THE EVER LIVING GOD will have someone he appoints to find it for HIM and it will be used as told in the Verse below at the appropriate time.

REV 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The Gospel HAS been preached as promised, but that is another subject, so I won't go into that.

But do you believe the Jerusalem Temple is to be rebuilt? Do you believe the Temple is to be rebuilt somewhere other than the City of Jerusalem? If Temple items are found, I was just wondering what would become of them. Unless I've misunderstood, you believe these items were hidden away for an endtime purpose, so, in your opinion, would that purpose have anything to do with a new temple?

Personally, I don't feel the preaching of the Gospel has finished as of yet, as there are MANY False Teachings out there, but I won't go into that here.  IF the Gospel had been preached, as Prophesied, the end would have come already, but, as we are well aware, the end has NOT come!  We do have some great discussions on this on the KGC Yahoo Website however!

The next Holy City (literal city, other than Christians' bodies) will be Jesus' 1000 Year Kingdom on Earth.  Then, THE EVER LIVING GOD will usher in a NEW HEAVEN and NEW EARTH with the HOLY NEW JERUSALEM coming down from THE EVER LIVING GOD out of Heaven.  I have provided these Verses from Revelation below.  Also, instead of going into detail here about the Temple NOT having to be rebuilt, I have given you a link to a website which details why this does NOT have to occur before Jesus returns.  The bottom line is that OUR BODIES are the TEMPLE now!

REV 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

REV 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
REV 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
REV 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

1COR 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1COR 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


http://www.cogwriter.com/jewishtemple.htm

Yes, I know the temple of God is the body/s he dwells in, but I also believe in a hand made temple to be built. I just thought that since you believed they hid the items for a purpose, and that you believe the real Israel to be Anglo, that you might have believed it had to do with a temple.

As far as the end coming, what if he wasn't referring to the end of all things?
I have to keep myself quiet here.

Yes, I know the temple of God is the body/s he dwells in, but I also believe in a hand made temple to be built. I just thought that since you believed they hid the items for a purpose, and that you believe the real Israel to be Anglo, that you might have believed it had to do with a temple.

As far as the end coming, what if he wasn't referring to the end of all things?
I have to keep myself quiet here.

I guess that is where we differ, as I don't believe in a physical temple having to be built before Christ's return.

You are correct - it will not be the end of all things, as some believe.  There will be some survivors, as Jesus and his Army From Heaven will come and fight the evil that will be about to destroy all of us and establish his 1000 Year Kingdom on Earth.  However, the "end" that the Bible, and you and I were referring to has NOT happened yet - The Tribulation, ending with Jesus' 1000 Year Kingdom on Earth.  THIS will happen AFTER the Word is Preached throughout the World, according to Jesus Himself.

You are also correct - I believe that Anglo-Saxons are the Israelites from the Bible.  However, I do not know the purpose of the storing away of Temple artifacts.  I do not even know if the people who stored them away had Good or Evil intentions.  

If the intentions were Good, they would be directed by THE EVER LIVING GOD as to what to do with the artifacts.  As I showed in an earlier post, the Ark will be in Heaven at the time of judgement.  The other items are NOT mentioned - Will they be used by Jesus during his 1000 Year Kingdom on Earth?  That, we do not know yet.

If people of Evil found/hid the artifacts from the Temple, they might use them to try and establish a FALSE Temple on Earth in the end times.....I don't really know - I can only speculate.

I DO believe that America is the Zion/Jerusalem of Prophecy in the Bible and that this country will be the site of Jesus' 1000 Year Kingdom on Earth.  I recently gave the KGC Yahoo group a post on how to tell that THE EVER LIVING GOD was referring to America in Biblical Prophecy.  However, I won't go into as much detail as that here.  I will leave you one Verse which states that modern Israel is Spiritually Sodom/Egypt, so, simply going by that one verse, IF you believe the Bible, it SHOULD tell you that modern day Israel/Jerusalem is NOT the Israel/Jerusalem of Biblical Prophecy, or it would NOT have been referred to as Sodom!

REV 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

That depends on which coming you talk about. He comes as son of David, to sit on the throne of David in the millennium. But before that, he was to come as son of man, which means Prophet.

  WHEW!  Ss, you asked a "HEAVY" question; re. Vandals (aka VisiGoths from Germany & and other "slav" countries... ie., PAGANS), and Bro. Sir Francis Bacon.    HA!  Starting with Bro. Bacon... he wrote NEW ATLANTIS (aka NEW JERSALEM)... ALSO responsible for
MANY ciphers/codes, and is stated to be the person who King James asked to do the H.B. for the
"great unwashed" (common ppl); he PROBABLY did it, and put his BACONIAN CODE in it; hence, what appears to be a JEWISH BIBLE CODE.    NOW!  The VANDALS (aka PAGANS) "sacked" Rome, etc. "taking back" SACRED ITEMS that were taken from the TEMPLE; VANDALS are ethnically
related to the ORIGINAL Israel.     VANDALS became a "sea-faring" ppl, MUCH like Vikings, Templar
Fleet, Pirates, etc. NOW!  the TEMPLE is to be rebuilt, HERE in NEW JERUSALEM!    I'm getting
"goose bumps" writing this; AMERICA, USA, NEW ATLANTIS, NEW JERUSALEM.   YOU may find a
"empty" VAULT... when the ACTUALITY is ... it is the ARK in which the H.S. is to reside!    LAWD
GAWD A'MIGHTY!   The REALITY of a "empty" VAULT, is the ACTUALITY of the LIVING G*D!

Rebel - thanks much for reaffirming some of my thoughts on this.  I have come really far for a "non-initiate", haven't I?

KK - I really don't know what you are referring to.  The only "Christ" to come, after the crucifixion and before Jesus and His army from Heaven come back to fight evil and establish His 1000 Year Kingdom (the Second Coming, as many refer to it) is the person referred to by many as the "Antichrist" in Prophecy.  I am not aware of this "two-Second Comings" scenario you are referring to???  Please enlighten me on this.   I am afraid you might be tricked that the so-called Antichrist (which is to rule before Jesus returns) will be Christ.  PLEASE DO NOT BE FOOLED BY THIS FALSE CHRIST - FOR YOUR SOUL'S SAKE!  Many FALSE PROPHETS are teaching that the coming "Anti-Christ" will be Christ - THIS IS NOT TRUE ACCORDING TO WHAT I HAVE STUDIED IN SCRIPTURE!  

Behold he cometh with clouds...2nd coming

You are referring to his 3rd coming, Rev 19 on a white horse, with the saints with him, also on white horses.

How many times does it talk about the coming of the Son of man? And if you'll look, every single time it says Son of man it's talking about, or directly to, a prophet. In the Millennium he is Son of David. Same Christ.

   THIS, I don't know; you say, you have a HARD time getting in... MAYBE, you are NOT supposed to.    Like the Ark of the Covenant (or... MAYBE, where it is inside), the POWER may "blow you away"...    Are YOU ready for the NEXT Pentecost?   Be careful... be VERY careful!
The "legend" is... touching the ARK will kill you; touch the Walls of the VAULT; do you feel it VIBRATING?  Hear it HUMMING? NOW... for MORE restless days, and sleepless nights.

I really don't mean this to argue, but if you're waiting on the return of Pentecost, it's already returned.

Swiftsearcher, have you ever read about, or watched the video's of Ron Wyatt, who claimed to have found the Ark of the covenant? I don't agree with a lot of what Ron said, and I don't know what to think about him finding the Ark, but it was at least very interesting. It was once on Youtube...don't know if it's still there.

Behold he cometh with clouds...2nd coming

You are referring to his 3rd coming, Rev 19 on a white horse, with the saints with him, also on white horses.

How many times does it talk about the coming of the Son of man? And if you'll look, every single time it says Son of man it's talking about, or directly to, a prophet. In the Millennium he is Son of David. Same Christ.

KK
I was not referring to the Day of Pentecost - I was referring to the return of Christ to establish his 1000 Year Kingdom on Earth, as mentioned in Biblical Prophecy.  Your belief is different about this Coming of Christ than mine.  That is why we have so many Christian Denominations, as people place different meanings on Scripture.  The way I believe it is that Jesus will come back with his Army of Heaven (in clouds, or UFO's as we know them today) and defend us, when we are about to be annihilated by the evil ones and there is no hope (George Washington also had this vision of America - interesting and scary, if any of you want to Google it).  He will then establish His 1000 Year Kingdom on Earth.  We can agree to disagree on this one.  

I will say that Revelation is "tricky" in that it skips around in its time frame.  For instance, Chapter 12 is about the Fall of Satan and the Angels (Stars) and the Israelites and Christ being born.  Also, as in my studying of Prophecy, though I believe a LOT has been revealed to me by THE EVER LIVING GOD (including the date of Jesus' Second Coming), there are Verses I do not understand as of yet.  If you will remember, it is stated that the Prophecies will only be revealed when the time is right.  It seems, at least from my study of Prophecy in the Bible, that more and more is being revealed as I go along, but some is still a mystery (which I believe is THE EVER LIVING GOD's method of exposing Prophecy at the correct times).

As for the Ark of The Covenant, I have heard/read/and talked to people who claimed to have found it.  I even spoke to one man who claimed to have been with the team that found it in Jerusalem, underneath the Temple Mount.  He was the most convincing, as he told me this (without even knowing I believed in Anglo-Israelism):  He stated that the Jewish team had gotten Jewish persons, supposedly from the correct tribes and did all the preparations.  However, when they attempted to retrieve the Ark, they all perished.  Also, none of their cameras would work they sent in before attempting to retrieve the Ark as well.  After several of these Jewish persons died trying to retrieve the Ark and trying to retrieve the bodies of those killed, finally blond haired blue eyed people had to go inside and retrieve the bodies - and were NOT KILLED!  This is a believable story of the finding of the Ark to me.  Also, even though I believe the articles from the Temple are in America, I don't believe the Romans had stolen the Ark, as it was more than likely hidden very well for protection.  The articles Rome stole from the Temple, without the Ark of The Covenant, were then taken back by the Vandals (whom were Israelites) and would up in America.  For the record, I don't believe these articles consisted of the Ark of The Covenant however.

Rebel - I doubt the AOC would be at the vault, even if it does contain articles from the Temple (as stated above).  It might surprise me however.  I can feel no vibrations.  However, the "vault" is only one entrance to this large cave system.  According to the map on the face of the vault, there are three cache sites inside, with one being in the center of this huge rock formation and the other two being inside the main clift area, so IF the AOC was there, it would not be close enough to feel any vibrations from it.  As I posted before from Revelation, IF the Ark is still on Earth, it will be with Jesus before the end.  I believe, if it is on Earth now and is found, that an angel of THE EVER LIVING GOD would arrive to take it to its rightful place before the end (which would be GREAT for anyone finding it - to present it to an angel of THE EVER LIVING GOD, when the angel arrives in his cloud (UFO) to take the AOC to THE EVER LIVING GOD!).

KK
I was not referring to the Day of Pentecost - I was referring to the return of Christ to establish his 1000 Year Kingdom on Earth, as mentioned in Biblical Prophecy.  Your belief is different about this Coming of Christ than mine.  That is why we have so many Christian Denominations, as people place different meanings on Scripture.  The way I believe it is that Jesus will come back with his Army of Heaven (in clouds, or UFO's as we know them today) and defend us, when we are about to be annihilated by the evil ones and there is no hope (George Washington also had this vision of America - interesting and scary, if any of you want to Google it).  He will then establish His 1000 Year Kingdom on Earth.  We can agree to disagree on this one.  

I will say that Revelation is "tricky" in that it skips around in its time frame.  For instance, Chapter 12 is about the Fall of Satan and the Angels (Stars) and the Israelites and Christ being born.  Also, as in my studying of Prophecy, though I believe a LOT has been revealed to me by THE EVER LIVING GOD (including the date of Jesus' Second Coming), there are Verses I do not understand as of yet.  If you will remember, it is stated that the Prophecies will only be revealed when the time is right.  It seems, at least from my study of Prophecy in the Bible, that more and more is being revealed as I go along, but some is still a mystery (which I believe is THE EVER LIVING GOD's method of exposing Prophecy at the correct times).

As for the Ark of The Covenant, I have heard/read/and talked to people who claimed to have found it.  I even spoke to one man who claimed to have been with the team that found it in Jerusalem, underneath the Temple Mount.  He was the most convincing, as he told me this (without even knowing I believed in Anglo-Israelism):  He stated that the Jewish team had gotten Jewish persons, supposedly from the correct tribes and did all the preparations.  However, when they attempted to retrieve the Ark, they all perished.  Also, none of their cameras would work they sent in before attempting to retrieve the Ark as well.  After several of these Jewish persons died trying to retrieve the Ark and trying to retrieve the bodies of those killed, finally blond haired blue eyed people had to go inside and retrieve the bodies - and were NOT KILLED!  This is a believable story of the finding of the Ark to me.  Also, even though I believe the articles from the Temple are in America, I don't believe the Romans had stolen the Ark, as it was more than likely hidden very well for protection.  The articles Rome stole from the Temple, without the Ark of The Covenant, were then taken back by the Vandals (whom were Israelites) and would up in America.  For the record, I don't believe these articles consisted of the Ark of The Covenant however.

I was referring to what Rebel said about the returning of Pentecost.

From the way you describe it, that was Ron Wyatt you talked to.

Yes sir, we can agree to disagree, and I hope you find good things in the vault.

  Actually, KK... we are "chatting" about TWO different things... Pentecost is the down/out pouring of the HOLY SPIRIT (FATHER G*D).   YOU are "chatting" with Sws, about the 2nd "coming" of the Lord; we gotta get out of this religious theology "mode"; stop quibbling about "you know what", and get back to THE VAULT...

Actually, KK... we are "chatting" about TWO different things... Pentecost is the down/out pouring of the HOLY SPIRIT (FATHER G*D).   YOU are "chatting" with Sws, about the 2nd "coming" of the Lord; we gotta get out of this religious theology "mode"; stop quibbling about "you know what", and get back to THE VAULT...

Well, Rebel, I'm good with getting back to the fault, but you need something better than "you know what" and if you ever find it, you won't be ashamed of it.

BLUNTLY, I am not ashamed of ANYTHING.   Shortshack, I, and others were chatting about this sorta
thing, ONE person threatened to have our "dialogue" ("post") deleted... and it was.   Since then... I will NOT use the "G" word, the "B" word, or the "J" word, since it does offend some ppl, who are UNBELIEVERS.   The RELIGION sub-board was deleted for the very same reason.   BICKER, if YOU want... BUT! THIS "thread" is at risk... take it to the administrators, if YOU want.

BLUNTLY, I am not ashamed of ANYTHING.   Shortshack, I, and others were chatting about this sorta
thing, ONE person threatened to have our "dialogue" ("post") deleted... and it was.   Since then... I will NOT use the "G" word, the "B" word, or the "J" word, since it does offend some ppl, who are UNBELIEVERS.   The RELIGION sub-board was deleted for the very same reason.   BICKER, if YOU want... BUT! THIS "thread" is at risk... take it to the administrators, if YOU want.

Sorry, I shouldn't have said that. I'm not taking anything to the administrators. It's just that you seem to try to set the tone for this thread.

Okay, back to the vault.

I completely understand what Rebel was referring to - the outpouring of Pentecost from the Ark of The Covenant.  If you have seen Raiders of the Lost Ark, you will remember when this happened in the movie - the "Spirits" coming out and killing the people who looked upon the Ark.

The best way to get around using the J-Word is to call them Edomites, since they are from Esau and not Jacob!

KK, it was not the person you are referring to I spoke with.  The person I spoke with was a Treasure hunter/writer who was there, but was not the leader of the expedition.  I will have to Google the guy you are referring to and see if the stories match up.  If so, that would be even more proof than the Bible and tons of proof already that the True Israelites ARE the Anglo-Saxons (Until Jesus returns to prove to the World and make the Edomites our footstools!).

Rebel was answering a question I had asked.  I don't believe he was "setting the tone", but I do agree we better stick to the "vault", or things will be deleted by the mods. for being too Religious.