The Myth of Man-Made Global Warming

Every time someone comes along talking about the global warming "crisis", the blame always comes back around to humans and pollution.

But what you fail to understand is that global warming AND global cooling are naturally occuring phenomena. With or without us, it would continue to happen in a perpetual cycle.

Lets look back a few million years. When dinosaurs roamed the Earth, the entire planet was one big sweltering jungle. As such, all dominant species on the planet were cold-blooded. The polar ice caps were virtually non-existant and the sea level was higher.

Then what happened?

An Ice Age. The planet rapidly cooled. The sea level lowered, the ice caps grew. The cold-blooded creatures virtually died out. Warm-blooded creatures emerged. And that brings us to today.

Since then, the temperature has continued to fluctuate between extreme warming periods and cooling periods.

Take Napoleon's occupation in France for example. During his march toward Waterloo, he and his men became trapped in what is known as the "Little Ice Age" which devastated Europe in the early 1800's. It was reportedly so cold that some of Napoleon's men would cut flesh from the horses they were marching with and the wound would not bleed.

During that time period, a dramatic climate shift swept across Europe destroying the majority of available crops and causing thousands to die of starvation.

Now we come back to the present. The temperature is now on the rise again. Heat waves feed super storms, the ice caps begin to melt. By the end of 2012, they should be completely gone and the sea level should rise again.

This will lead to another dramatic climate shift. Then, I'm sure you know what's coming next. Ice Age. The planet will revert back to the cooling stage.

But in this day and age, does that spell certain doom for humanity? Of course not. Change, yes. Total annihilation, no. With the available technology, I feel confident that we as a species can survive.

what else I noticed.
I don't know about your area but we are not hitting any Record Highs or lows,
or a regular basis to warrant worry.

most records are still standing from the late 19th. early 20th century.

after New orleans they predicted we were going to get hit by
more and more cat 4's and 5's

I don't see it
Or us Breaking any Old hurricane Records
 

Who can know what’s happening. Twist and spin is all you can learn  from the media….Now they are keeping track of the 90 degrees days and going all gaa-gah every time we have one and tell me how hot it is. The important one is days over 100 degrees. We have had two days over 100 degrees this summer and I am not sure of one of them. Normal should be around 30 days of 100 plus degrees.
I recognize this Weather Pattern we are having. In the late 1960’s and early 1970’s we had thunder storms almost daily. Lightning strikes  were causing forest fires daily.
I guess I am suppose to believe that the 20 something Weather Babe knows more than I do and jump on the bandwagon…Art

Keep this in mind, we have been lied to about everything in our lives from day one.  And two the weather is big business.  Remember when we had to ditch freon b/c it was bad for the Ozone?   We had to have catalytic converters.  Al Gore making big bucks on his DVD. Etc.  And still things are changing and will continue to change.  In fact you ain't seen nothing yet! 

What I'm trying to say is that we are in a naturally occuring flux. Back in the 1970's, they thought we were going through this exact same thing. A huge panic started about global warming and a coming ice age. But then nothing happened.

If you want to find truth, absolute no bull--deleted-- truth, you have to look at history. See for yourself what has happened in the past. Look at the facts. They don't lie.

There is a saying: "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it".

Yes history does repeat its self.  There was a time when all the advanced ancient civilizations had to change their calendar, all at the same time.  But the last time we had global warming there were no cars causing pollution.  So what happened?  By the way the ice is also melting on Mars.  Are they trying to tell us that they have cars there?  Rember they blame us and our cars!  That is why we need special formulated expensive gas for the summer.  Or is it just for profit?

I remember having an old Nash before they came up with “smog” systems. I could put a dollar in gas in it and drive all week. Progress  I don’t think so….Art

If you want to find truth, absolute no bull[prohibited word deleted] truth, you have to look at history. See for yourself what has happened in the past. Look at the facts. They don't lie.

I was just looking at the evening news a few minutes ago. I guess I will have to replace all three of my old thermometers. We just set a new high temperature record. It was 99 degrees today. Now keep in mind that the official weather station is 2 ½ miles from my house. It started to rain about 2 pm and my thermometers only read 83 degrees. A soon as the weather report was over there was a flash flood warning on the air. Gee….I guess we are to stupid to look out the window….Art 

This is just my opinion but I also find it a bit arrogant of humans to think that they are causing this giant ball that has been around for nearly 4.6 billion years to heat up with the 200 or so years that man has engaged in fossil fuels and heavy industry. It would blow my mind if we could destroy something as profound as the planet in 0.0000000434% of earth’s history. Just another distraction from the serious issues that need addressing. 

You have to remember that this is such an important topic that we (humans, and the US in particular) must do "something" to stop it.  Like one of the guys in my astronomy club asked- "Are you willing to take the chance?"  Being me, I answered, "Of course."

al gore is a hypocrit and a money monger he is not living what he preaches ..he uses more power and oil than we all do..he has found a way to make money by scareing people..global warming and cooling has been around forever centurys, as long as history has existed...yes we all can help mostly for our own lungs and well being to cut down on polution..just mt .02 worth..james

You have to remember that this is such an important topic that we (humans, and the US in particular) must do "something" to stop it.  Like one of the guys in my astronomy club asked- "Are you willing to take the chance?"  Being me, I answered, "Of course."

How do we stop Mother Nature??Art

Al Gore will make us all believe in global warming when the Gov't starts making us pay carbon taxes.  Yep it's already on the table.  Whatever is said to leave a carbon footprint will be taxed to pay for it's eventual clean-up. Just more ways for them to get and control more money.

Or we follow George Bushes plan…After all the planet has been cooling  while he was President….Art

Pippin, are you the master of false logic? 1) The Saguaro national monument showing effects of pollution does not prove MMGW.
2) Pouring gas on you lawn may pollute it, but again does not prove MMGW.
3) I assume you are talking about the Cyahoga in Cleavland which ignited back in the 70's. Does not prove MMGW.
4) Whales beaching themselves when the navy turns on their sonar? What the he** does it have to do with MMGW at all?
5) Acid rain? Not proven to connect to MMGW.
6) WTF?? People croaking from air pollution. Again nothing to do with MMGW.
7) Boulder dam caused the earth to shift? I don't know where ya got it but does not jive with MMGW.
The Ozone hole does not exist any more. It was a momentary anomaly. I believe that was the 80"s "The sky is falling" deal.
9) Rachel Carson?? You know that does not have anything to do with MMGW.

My friend, I listen to Coast to Coast am also. I just do not believe that President Bush was a alien, and that a space saucer abducted JFK right before he was shot. If you wish to believe this religious experience of Global Warming then do so, but these facts you list are not facts proving MMGW, sorry.

I find it funny you mention "Acid rain" as we can just as well relate that volcanoes, one of the gases they produce is sulphur dioxide,  do you know what happens when that reacts to water vapour? Yeah that's right, acid ad when it rains viola! Acid rain.

The Ozone layer is on the constant move, and as such it never is stable everywhere there will be thicker and thinner parts.
Also Freons did weaken it, though keep in mind that it also regenerates.

Worry more about surface occurring Ozone, it's dangerous down here...

I think we have very little effect on it (global warming), if any at all.
And as Allen suggests we have to look back many million years to see that it has always changed. From one extreme to another.

What I'm trying to say is that we are in a naturally occuring flux. Back in the 1970's, they thought we were going through this exact same thing. A huge panic started about global warming and a coming ice age. But then nothing happened.

If you want to find truth, absolute no bull--deleted-- truth, you have to look at history. See for yourself what has happened in the past. Look at the facts. They don't lie.

There is a saying: "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it".

Allen do you think humans are impacting this whole process? I understand what your saying about cycles, lots of people still point to that, but theres sure alot of scientific evidence that points at humans as at the very least accelerating this whole process.

One of the responders points to Al Gore making alot of money off his DVD. How would you say that compares to say GM who keeps waving the VOLT in our faces saying its just around the corner, when other manufacturers are coming out with electric cars next year?  Personally I agree that we are being lied to alot, and misdirected in our thinking on some subjects. Im saying I think alot of global warming misdirected info comes out of Detroit.

Do you believe this all will pass and we will find out we humans had no impact on this?

Thanks,
Neil

What I believe is that it is just egocentric to think that humans could have a profound impact on the weather in a global sense in the space of just 200 years. I don't think humans are responsible for climate change in any form.

One more fact that is constantly overlooked is Earth's global tilt. That is, the North and South poles are tilted rather than being straight up and down. Imagine the way that an average globe sits. The kind you would find in school.

This is important because that tilt completes one rotation every 40,000 years. As the tilt gets closer to the sun, the global temperature gets hotter. Thus, global warming. As the tilt gets further from the sun, it gets colder. Instant Ice Age.

Now when the dinosaurs existed, this tilt was closer to the sun. The entire planet was extremely hot, thus the dominance of several large, predominantly cold blooded species. As the reign of the dinosaur came to a close, the global tilt went into the other phase and the planet cooled. The Ice Age hit. Warm blooded animals became the dominant caste. Very few cold-blooded creatures survived, becoming the reptiles you see today.

And that brings us to the the present day. My theory is that we are heading back into the heat phase. The planet will become hotter. The ice caps will melt yet again. The sea level will rise again. It would do this, like clockwork, with or without human interference. And it looks to be right on schedule as far as scientific evidence would suggest. But it is all theory.

The bottom line is that I do not think humans had any impact whatsoever. I also think that Al Gore and car makers are pushing electric vehicles because the oil market is no longer poised to be the big money maker. the Green energy industry is booming and they are getting in on the ground floor. To help this investment, they use scare tactics. Buy this or you are killing us all! Ahhh!!!

They did the same thing back in the late 70's early 80's when they came out with the first electric car concepts. But interest faded and they were never produced. Only time will tell if it will happen again.

Al Gore is doing his best to cash in by inventing carbon credits. As if paying his company money for pollution levels does anything other than make him wealthier.

I guess you could say its egocentric to also think you know what your saying is true.
You missed my point on the cars, I do wish Detroit would be pushing the electric car instead of saying they are but they are not. The two manufacturers arent from Detroit for the cars I am talking about.

If you dont think that humans are causing any impact on the planet then I have to back out of this conversation, we are just to far apart on our thinking.

Thanks for your thoughts,
Neil

If we have a impact on global warming, it is minimal. We are still counting CO2 in PPM (parts per million)


If you are interested look here:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/

I can agree it might be warming, but I have yet to see any proof that we are the reason.
Natural forces are so much more powerful then us.

WWII was fought at the tail end of the "Little Ice Age".  The Battle of the Bulge and the fight fo the Ardennes was fought in the coldest weather they had experienced in a hundred years!  Ditto the Germans and Russians on the Eastern front.  My Dad was at the Battle of the Bulge in the Ardennes and said he had never been so cold in his life, and he saw several men freeze to death and lose feet and toes and fingers to frost bite.  And Al Gore has perpetrated the biggest hoax of the century and got rich over it.  And it's still being forced on us by our present government.  Is there no common sense left in this country?  Monty

Napoleon also wrote about his experiences during the little ice age. He said it was so cold that his men were able to cut flesh from the hind quarters of some of the horses and the wound wouldn't even bleed. The horses just kept on walking.

A large majority of his forces were killed or hospitalized because of the cold and starvation, leading to his eventual loss at waterloo.

Man made global warming?   The whole thing is a farce and the people promoting it are getting rich off the hoax,,, Al Gore come to mind?,,, Oh, lets go buy some carbon credits....
Good gosh, give me a break from the liberal insanity.

I completely agree. What a joke. Although it is a brilliant money making scheme. Cash through fear.

Buy carbon credits or you will kill the environment! Tree killer! Shame on you! 

It's all insanity.

As alarming as the global warming hoax may be, even more sickening is the preening
moral certainty of those who promote it.

how are those coral reefs bubba?

Not sure .. haven't been to AUSTRALIA lately

oh really? new zealand isn't part of australia?

Nope, New Zealand is in the South Pacific, about 1400 miles across the Tasman Sea from Australia.
ps. My initial comment was not aimed at you specifically, sorry if you took offence

Hey Kiwijohn..Have you noticed that when you want to talk about Global Warming the subject is always changed in to some kind of rant that has nothing to do the temperature ?

Maybe because some people cannot seem to understand that man-made or Global warming has nothing to do with the temperature at your house?


B

Hey Kiwijohn..Have you noticed that when you want to talk about Global Warming the subject is always changed in to some kind of rant that has nothing to do the temperature ?

Absolutely spot on observation aarthrj.
Morph global warming into 'climate change',   'severe weather event' or any other
vague term that suits the day.

Your right B..I am having global cooling at my house. 2 ½ miles away is where our temperatures records are being set almost daily. The only difference that I can see is that I have grass and trees here and they have miles of black top. I almost forgot about the 100’s of airplanes the come and go daily….Art

I guess you could say its egocentric to also think you know what your saying is true.
You missed my point on the cars, I do wish Detroit would be pushing the electric car instead of saying they are but they are not. The two manufacturers arent from Detroit for the cars I am talking about.

If you dont think that humans are causing any impact on the planet then I have to back out of this conversation, we are just to far apart on our thinking.

Thanks for your thoughts,
Neil

The planet is getting out of and ice age that started around 2 million years ago. Around 6 hundred million years ago the planet may have been completely covered with ice. Research how many times that the planet has been through fluctuating thermal cycles and then explain how people can intervene with the positive and negative feedback cycles?

I guess you could say its egocentric to also think you know what your saying is true.
You missed my point on the cars, I do wish Detroit would be pushing the electric car instead of saying they are but they are not. The two manufacturers arent from Detroit for the cars I am talking about.

If you dont think that humans are causing any impact on the planet then I have to back out of this conversation, we are just to far apart on our thinking.

Thanks for your thoughts,
Neil


WTF? I have no Ideal how Neil got the all Inclusive thought of " If you dont think that humans are causing any impact on the planet"  from what you said patpall. It seems we go over this and over this but it never gets fixed. NEIL!!!!!!! I do think humans impact the planet!!!! patpall very likley thinks humans impact the planet. aarthrj thinks humans impact the planet!!!  Heck, only a moron thinks humans do not impact the planet!!!!
Now, Neil, and others of your ilk, I will speak in slow small words so I do not lose you

I guess you could say its egocentric to also think you know what your saying is true.
You missed my point on the cars, I do wish Detroit would be pushing the electric car instead of saying they are but they are not. The two manufacturers arent from Detroit for the cars I am talking about.

If you dont think that humans are causing any impact on the planet then I have to back out of this conversation, we are just to far apart on our thinking.

Thanks for your thoughts,
Neil


WTF? I have no Ideal how Neil got the all Inclusive thought of " If you don't think that humans are causing any impact on the planet"  from what you said patpall. It seems we go over this and over this but it never gets fixed. NEIL!!!!!!! I do think humans impact the planet!!!! patpall very likely thinks humans impact the planet. aarthrj thinks humans impact the planet!!!  Heck, only a moron thinks humans do not impact the planet!!!!
Now, Neil, and others of your ilk, I will speak in slow small words so I do not lose you

(Sorry, I got  so irritated with this stuff that I accidentaly hit the post button.) Just because people of sound mind with a mental lean toward logic disbelieve the Global warming farce, we realize humans impact the planet. This being said, only lemmings, and Cattle just follow the herd regardless of facts. The facts do not support GWT, regardless of nuclear waste, air pollution and acid rain. If you cannot separate the two,(GWT and general pollution) I would suggest that you and others not post. You look like you have no Ideal what is being discussed when you start throwing these moronic accusations around. Look around, I am sure you can find a thread on general pollution if you and others are so inclined. Sorry y'all, but I have seen this crap so much it drives me bonkers when I see accusations flung like this.

But what you fail to understand is that global warming AND global cooling are naturally occuring phenomena. With or without us, it would continue to happen in a perpetual cycle.
Amen to the truth!

And, you wouldn't care if the highs are higher and the lows are lower, because we cannot clean up after ourselves and keep our poop in a group?

You wouldn't care if grasses that grew here 40 years ago, won't survive the year now?

You wouldn't care if skin cancer goes up by 50%?

You wouldn't care if it costs 3 times more fuel/energy/electric to heat and cool then it used to?

You wouldn't care if the entire Northwest Passage (which is now open) happened in the course of one lifetime (mine)?

You wouldn't care that more Polar Bears are dying - because they are having to swim more miles to hunt?

You wouldn't care that species disappear?

You wouldn't care that native trees are being replaced by trees that don't belong here?

You say you know we contribute to the problem, so I don't get it.

B

ARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! Mrs O: I respect you but why must you also participate in this fraud???  Over half of your message has nothing to do with MMGW(a fictitious term in my book) other than a vague and infinitesimal link. Polar Bears are at a population of over 25 times what they were when they went on the endangered species list. They swim hundreds of miles because they require huge amounts of territory and they are overpopulated. Skin Cancer ? Even in theory MMGW increases the heat, not the Suns radiation. If we have increased skin cancer that is a argument for a solar cause for heat increase, not a man made one. Fuel, energy?? Not related to MMGW. Species disappear, and appear every day. I am not sure how this relates to MMGW. Tree replacement? I won't even elaborate. I post here concerning MMGW. What you are posting about is something else entirely and possibly "You would not care" if the truth is told, just as long as you point of view is supported. This is nuts!!

So, cutting down trees and not replacing them is not a man-made issue?  I disagree.

Spewing filthy smoke into the air is not man-made?  I disagree.

Polluting waters, and not cleaning it up is not man-made?  I disagree

Even when we had the last ice - there was something that we DID NOT have 6,706,993,152 (July 2008 est.) people.

We had animals, who didn't destroy forests, who didn't pollute water, who didn't have millions of factories making pollution.

All that - is man-made, and man-made only.

Do I think we can change warming and cooling?  Of course not.  Do I think we can do a much better job in restoring what we take?  Absolutely.

It's not an either/or situation.  It's a "do what you can" situation. 

The "anti-mmgw" crowd, mostly want to use it as an excuse to not take responsibility for ANYTHING that they use up and destroy.

If you cannot tell the difference between one and the other - put up a corral in grass, put one horse in it - see how long the grass lasts.  Then, put in 100 horses - tell me how accelerated the process is.

We cannot change the number of horses in the corral (people), but we can certainly plant more grass.

B

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29842552/

The "anti-mmgw" crowd, mostly want to use it as an excuse to not take responsibility for ANYTHING that they use up and destroy.

There I disagree, at least from my point of view, as I find at least myself only sceptic.
I have yet to see proof of that it's really us humans that have such a huge impact as they claim.

Sure we do have impact, but is there any way we can for sure measure how much?
No there isn't, except locally as the corral you where referring to.
But they keep screaming for global change when they only look locally? This isn't going to work.

We can only make qualified guesses at the moment.

Please feel free to prove me wrong, I would love to see prof that I'm wrong.

duh...

http://nicl.usgs.gov/why.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070425164935.htm

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Paleoclimatology_IceCores/

http://news.dri.edu/nr2008/joe_mcconnell_081908.php

Besides the coal-burning in one of your links, we tend to forget (while everyone yells about carbon dioxide), about water vapor, which is a worse greenhouse gas (for warming).

But, there is not one single car, not one single manufacturing plant - that does NOT make water vapor. (I take that back, electric vehicles probably do not make water vapor).

Climate change is a fact of life - there is no doubt of continuous climate change.

I just think we should do what we can to let the planet do it in its own way, instead of helping it along - of course, not at the expense of our economy, because that's just not realistic - or feasible.

But, trees use up carbon dioxide BEFORE it gets into the upper atmosphere and troposphere and there are things that we can do, without changing our world up-side-down, to let mother nature do what it will.

Not to change the subject - but it is a part of the total equation - but, excluding large blocks of land from people probably actually ADDS to the problem - by not letting nature take its course.

B

I always hate it when people mix pollution with global warming.

Yes, humans have spread across this planet like a virus and attacked every natural resource to be found.

No, that does not have an impact on the global temperature.

Yes, the rate of skin cancer is increasing.

No, that does not have an impact on global temperature. That is a reduction in the solar shield around the planet, leading to an increase in radiation that is allowed in.

Yes, the cost of fuels are increasing.

No, that does not have an impact on global temperature. That is greed and profiteering at it's finest. Look up inflation and OPEC in the 1970's.

No, I don't care that species disappear. 98% of all species on this planet have gone extinct already. And we, as a species, will most likely join them. It's out of my hands.

And no, that does not have an impact on global temperature.

The fact that native trees are being replaced by non-native trees is pointless. What significant impact on global temperature does that create? You lost me there.


 

It's about balance and why a pine tree grows where it grows.

And those other things certainly DO have to do with global changes.

You may hate it, but, there it is.

B

"The Myth of Man Made Global Warming". Again Mrs o: I do respect you and value your opinion, and agree with it. Again the problem is not what you are saying is true or not( for the great majority of it I feel is true), it's just that It does not belong here. Start another thread, but pounding the greenpeace drum about Pine trees, fuel and energy shortages, pollution, acid rain, landfills, garbage trows, and the proliferation of disposable diapers is sort of insulting. We are not morons. Most people who post here know about these problems and don't argue about them. Heck most people want to help fix these problems. The problem is it seems that regardless of what a thread starts out to be, someone always wants to drag away from the subject, in this case MMGW. Many unscrupulous individuals resort to bantering about other save the Earth issues when MMGW hypothesis (which they support) is shown to have more holes in it than Benedict Arnold's hide after execution. Now I am not throwing you in with that group, yet, but  please look at what allen idaho wrote. Look closely and you will see he actually agrees with you. Like me we just do not like the assertion that MMGW hypothesis is a worthy of consideration and that these are side subjects just barely related to MMGW.

Well, gee - how does man-made stuff affecting the earth NOT belong in the man-made global warming thread?

Are you saying you just want to talk about myths?  I'm sorry, I don't understand, but I do believe they are as related as your left hand is to your right.

Please explain.

B

What I am saying is that I agree that pollution is bad. That humans are destructive toward the environment.

HOWEVER, this impact on the environment does not in any way affect global warming. I just don't think I can say it any clearer than that. I do not believe the two are directly related.

I am not trying to get into a pollution debate. But you keep going to that old fall-back rather than focusing on the issue at hand.

Pollution. Does man have a major impact on that? Definately.

Global Warming. Does man have a major impact on that? No.

pollution=atmospheric disturbances = impact on climate

how could anyone rational, not working for a major pollution industry...claim humans have no effect on global warming?

beyond rational behavior.
Oppenheimer thought ONE atomic blast could change the earth...how many above ground tests made the desert glow in the dark?
one of the premier scientists of the twenty first centry,has misgivings about frying the earth with one experiment...and you claim duh, no global warming...

I think the point he's trying to make isn't that global warming does not exist, much like the rest of us have on numerous occasions. Sure, the earth cycles between warming periods and cooling periods.

 Guess what? It did that before man existed! Guess what else? It'll do it long after he is gone! With or without man made pollution.

 Clear things up? Rational enough?

 Even the term "Man made global warming" is a farce, when the earth does so on her own.

Even the term "Man made global warming" is a farce, when the earth does so on her own.

And, I disagree - for the reasons previously stated.

That's like saying that fire is a natural thing, so if we go around and burn all the forests, its not man-made.

B

Umm.... well...Fire is a natural thing actually

duh...

http://nicl.usgs.gov/why.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070425164935.htm

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Paleoclimatology_IceCores/

http://news.dri.edu/nr2008/joe_mcconnell_081908.php

It only proves that the climate changes, not that it's our fault.
And also one of the sites states that they can trace it back to 750,000 years and point out in a geological time factor that is nothing.

Pippin,
We still measure Co2 in PPM and well if you take one gallon of pure oxygen then add 350 PPM of Co2 which is close to what we have today. Then see how little difference it really makes.

Then add Water Vapour which is about twice as "aggressive" in comparison to Co2.
It'll make a bigger difference.

Rational and practical enough?

SOme try to minize their emissions so they can measure it in PPM, yet others release tons of stuff into the atmospehere. There in lies part of the problem.

Did anyone catch the article on TV, that showed that the earth has actually been in a cooling cycle over the last five years. We have got to keep in mind that the Earth is a lot bigger than our back yard.
I hate pollution and despise polluters.
I do not believe that man can create global warming.
I do know for a fact, that global warming is is a cyclical beast, controlled by Mother Nature. Look at the mines found near the Arctic circle and worked several hundred years ago. Look at the Northwest pasage the sail ships used above Canada  three hundred years ago, that have been ice lock since then.

Just how many coal burning plants were in operation in the 1400's and 1700's?

GreyCloud, you might as well give it up. I have begged and begged for people to open their mind and realize that MMGW is a farce. We are about to destroy our economy for cap n trade to "Save the Earth from burning up" while in reality we are in a cooling trend. The folks we are trying to give the truth too are just to wound up in the green side to see the light. Heck, most of them even believe you and I support pollution regardless of what we say. Yeah, our economy will be bombed back to the stoneage, electricity will become to expensive for the average Joe to use, and he will have to resort to a wood heater. Stoke up a few million of those baby's in the dead of a Minnesota winter and we will have massive CO2 release, along with smog, but we will be off that dreaded coal fired electric plant right!! YEA!!!!

 

I believe we can CONTRIBUTE to it, and its time frame and its intensity.

B

the one point the detractors of global warming fail to post is that all cycles of cooling and heating of the earth were tied to the orbit of the earth around the sun...until this one.
national geographic had a program on last night discussing the issue.

I believe we can CONTRIBUTE to it, and its time frame and its intensity.

B

 In terms of deep time, don't you think that it is a bit conceded to think that the magnificent MAN has any impact on global temperature?
MAN has only been engaged in heavy industry for a little over 200 years yet people believe that we pose a threat to the planet? The planet is fine, the people are f*****.

http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2008AM/finalprogram/abstract_147151.htm

little known fact...filling the lake behind hoover dam changed the rotation of the earth...one tiny event...and the world goes out of balance...

yep...you people are so clean as not to leave a trace, you walk on water...i get it...

I don't think its any more conceded than thinking that we can do anything we want without consequences.

B

I don't think its any more conceded than thinking that we can do anything we want without consequences.

B

Agree!

21stTNCav. You sir are correct, the truth is not what they seek. I believe in logic and history, they believe in feelings.

Pippinwhitepaws, Have you ever had any direct contact with National Geographic? Well, I have. They did a story about gator hunting and poaching in South Louisiana a few years back. They were completely fooled and bamboozled by the locals and even by the department of wildlife. We sat back and watched this three ring circus, amazed at how naive they were. So, my point is again, I believe in history and facts, not propaganda that is orchestrated to suit an agenda.

21stTNCav. You sir are correct, the truth is not what they seek. I believe in logic and history, they believe in feelings.

Pippinwhitepaws, Have you ever had any direct contact with National Geographic? Well, I have. They did a story about gator hunting and poaching in South Louisiana a few years back. They were completely fooled and bamboozled by the locals and even by the department of wildlife. We sat back and watched this three ring circus, amazed at how naive they were. So, my point is again, I believe in history and facts, not propaganda that is orchestrated to suit an agenda.

seen your brand of history before...@madeupstuff.com

facts disturb the uneducated.
 i have posted science and history...and you whine...

21stTNCav. You sir are correct, the truth is not what they seek. I believe in logic and history, they believe in feelings.

Pippinwhitepaws, Have you ever had any direct contact with National Geographic? Well, I have. They did a story about gator hunting and poaching in South Louisiana a few years back. They were completely fooled and bamboozled by the locals and even by the department of wildlife. We sat back and watched this three ring circus, amazed at how naive they were. So, my point is again, I believe in history and facts, not propaganda that is orchestrated to suit an agenda.

Hello my friend GrayCloud. Long time no peace pipe. I must say I personally prefer fillet mignon to greasy gator tail. Of course gator is a reptile, something a civilized man would never eat. But who's judging? Live and let live I say! I've read everything regarding global climate change. The fact is regardless of the cause we are in an accelerated warming period that is threatening all the world's coastlines. It is an issue those of us who want to survive would like to address as to have a plan in case the predictions are true. Again, regardless of how much peyote is smoked in the peace pipe...there is a real imminent crisis building. Instead of arguing the 'cause' of climate change we should be discussing how to prepare for the worst case scenarios. I'd recommend you stock up on gator tail, hemp, turtle eggs, and maybe some firewater for medicinal purposes.
Peace

Cap Z

Cappy Z is right about one thing.  It is better to be prepared for the worse case than put your head in the sand and do nothing.  I do not believe we will end this debate until the cold weather returns to such a degree that the kool aid drinkers have to agree that they were wrong.  Will that happen in the near future?  Only God knows that answer.

That's right, don't face the truth. For the last five years, we have been in a global cooling trend. It has been proved and documented. Oh, but the truth does not fit the liberal agenda.

Even the term "Man made global warming" is a farce, when the earth does so on her own.

And, I disagree - for the reasons previously stated.

That's like saying that fire is a natural thing, so if we go around and burn all the forests, its not man-made.

B

 Beth, I would agree with you except for one thing, there is more evidence on the natural side of the earth warming, than there is on the man made side. Your argument concedes that man is causing warming. I disagree, obviously.

 And as Grey cloud has pointed out we have been cooling- but not for just five years, more like ten. And yes, this does not fit with the agenda- ;)

No Cappy. We are not in a accelerated warming trend. We were.  Facts show cooling for the last 10 years at least. {   www.isthereglobalcooling.com
www.skepticalscience.com  http://newsbusters.org/blobs/nathan...dian-scientists-fear-global-cooling    }. Did ya ever hear of the Maunder Minimum??? It was sort of a Solar hibernation from 1650, with intermittent warming spikes, to about 1715. A bitter cold sob it was. Massive crop failures in Europe caused civil unrest and millions of deaths. Now I am not saying we are about to have a Maunder minimum, and I cannot say we are not about to undergo more warming. The reality is I don't know. What do I know?? Scientific fact, The average temperatures have been getting cooler since 1998, despite data gathering geared toward biased results toward higher temperatures.(most reporting stations are at airports). MM Global warming is based of faulty science and poor standards of ethics used by scientist and the media. These things I know. Now provide me the data, scientific data, from 2008 that shows man is causing the planet to heat up through CO2 emissions. 

So, it is the opinion of most of you here that humans haven't created any kind of impact on the Earth, or that the impact we do make doesn't make any real difference?

So, it is the opinion of most of you here that humans haven't created any kind of impact on the Earth, or that the impact we do make doesn't make any real difference?

We sure do have a impact on the earth but in what way; only the future can tell.

Aren't we, as humans - part of the "natural side" of global anything?

You can't mention one thing that is happening in the world where man isn't involved in some way or another.
(one of the reasons I get ticked off at the 'environmentalists' - they don't consider people as part of the environment).

Has anyone read one of the reasons (the major one) why they talk about the earth ending in 2012?  It doesn't have anything to do with the bible. (the one I am talking about)

It has to do with the end of a total sun cycle.

Just wondering if anyone read about it - and any thoughts about it, in relation to this topic.

B

Global Warming, or Climate Change, as it has conveniently morphed into,
is not about climate at all.
It is about politics and money, seized upon by politicians and bureaucrats
so that we should give up our lifestyle, our prosperity and our freedom
in order that they can mount a fools quest to stop this phony crisis.
I for one want to hear no more of rising sea levels,  no more about discredited
computer models. It is all b******t,  pseudo-science, wrapped up in
alarmist Jihadi fear mongering.

So, it is the opinion of most of you here that humans haven't created any kind of impact on the Earth, or that the impact we do make doesn't make any real difference?

We sure do have a impact on the earth but in what way; only the future can tell.

But aren't there examples in present-day of impacts that humans played a part in?  Polluted lakes and streams, Chernobyl?

Of course we have an impact - we cannot help but have an impact - just look at the population that wasn't here during the last climate change.

But, KiwiJohn is correct, too - it has turned all political and monetary.

The biggest problem with that is, now you have people trying to make believe everything is exactly the way it was 40 years ago, in an effort to STOP the politics, and you have people who are trying to prove/disprove (depending on which party you are supporting), and twisting facts in order to collect the money.

So, the real issue doesn't matter anymore.  Whatever the point - depending, again, on which side you are on - its either all nonsense or its the sky falling.

B

Of course we have an impact - we cannot help but have an impact - just look at the population that wasn't here during the last climate change.

But, KiwiJohn is correct, too - it has turned all political and monetary.

The biggest problem with that is, now you have people trying to make believe everything is exactly the way it was 40 years ago, in an effort to STOP the politics, and you have people who are trying to prove/disprove (depending on which party you are supporting), and twisting facts in order to collect the money.

So, the real issue doesn't matter anymore.  Whatever the point - depending, again, on which side you are on - its either all nonsense or its the sky falling.

B

So, in essence, the people protesting the theory of global climate change aren't protesting the possiblity itself, but the politics attached to it?

The funny thing about Chernobyl is that throughout the entire area, plant and animal life is flourishing. The place seems to only be deadly to humans.

[/quote]
So, in essence, the people protesting the theory of global climate change aren't protesting the possiblity itself, but the politics attached to it?
[/quote]

The global warming crisis is just the latest surrogate for an over-arching agenda of anti-growth and anti-development. This agenda grew and gathered support in the years following World War II.

One of the first issues to be celebrated as a crisis by these reformers was over-population. That fad peaked in the ‘60s and early ‘70s. The bible of that cult, “The Population Bomb,” argued that “... the battle to feed all of humanity is over” and claimed we had lost the battle, claiming “ ... in the 1970s and 1980s hundreds of millions of people will starve to death.”

This clearly phony crisis was followed by warnings about global climate change: Global cooling was going to lead to a new ice age.

In each of these false alarms, nature and technology spiked their prophecies. The natural cooling period of the ‘50s and ‘60s turned into the warming period of the ‘80s and ‘90s, and with the help of increased C02, a plant nutrient, instead of mass starvation, we had no problem growing enough food for the rapidly increasing world population, and we continue to find and make more efficient use of our other critical resources.

But the anti-growth, anti-development crowd are a hardy bunch. They won’t give up. As nature switched from global cooling to global warming, so did they.

Al Gore recently told the American Association for the Advancement of Science “we have a full-blown political struggle to communicate the truth.” His only problem is that his version of science is more political than true.

So in answer to your question, af1733, the politics dominate the debate, not the science.

"Defenders of the short-sighted men who in their greed and selfishness will, if permitted, rob our country of half its charm by their reckless extermination of all useful and beautiful wild things sometimes seek to champion them by saying the 'the game belongs to the people.' So it does; and not merely to the people now alive, but to the unborn people. The 'greatest good for the greatest number' applies to the number within the womb of time, compared to which those now alive form but an insignificant fraction. Our duty to the whole, including the unborn generations, bids us restrain an unprincipled present-day minority from wasting the heritage of these unborn generations. The movement for the conservation of wild life and the larger movement for the conservation of all our natural resources are essentially democratic in spirit, purpose, and method."
A Book-Lover's Holidays in the Open, 1916 , t. roosevelt

people who insult liberal conservationists or the study of the environment forget their roots.

I have no problem with that, whiteclaws. What has it to do with global warming?

Many skeptics of the warming farce are passionate environmentalists. They are
horrified to see the obsession with global warming distracting public attention from
what they see as more serious and more immediate dangers to the planet, including
problems of nuclear weaponry, environmental degradation, and social injustice.

Environmentalism has replace socialism as the leading secular religion.
The new green left (environmentalist) propaganda is similar to the old red left
(communist) propaganda. The dirty word now is carbon instead of capitalism.
The game is to intrude and control everything. How much will the carbon tax be
for each of us to breathe?

The problem with that is simple..............

It makes people like us either say "its a farce" or "the sky is falling" - and we don't really have the "unbought and unpaidfor" information.

The information we have is what politicians want us to know.

It wouldn't do to have definite information - if they solved the question - however would people keep making money on it.

Also, you get a little of that >>>>>hey>>look over there>>don't look here -  in other words, it keeps us peasants busy.

B

people who insult liberal conservationists or the study of the environment forget their roots.

The reactionary is always willing to take a progressive attitude on any issue that is dead.
Theodore Roosevelt


A man who has never gone to school may steal from a freight car;
 but if he has a university education, he may steal the whole railroad.
Theodore Roosevelt
Politicians and global warming alarmists are stealing the railroad of American prosperity
and greatness while the misinformed masses stand by and watch thinking they are
doing a great thing by buying curly light bulbs.
I really don't care one way or the other if the global climate is warming or cooling, I know
all the people on earth doing what they are doing isn't going to stop it or accelerate it or
affect it.  Let's all stop what we're doing and live in caves and burn wood and dress in animal
hides, that will surely save the planet.   Electric cars,  come on.  Have you checked into
the polution created by the building process of batteries, electric motors, everything else
that goes into electric cars?  It will increase the socalled pollution you are concerned about
to switch to electric cars,  and where will this electricity come from?   Wind mills?  they render
more real estate uninhabitable than do oilwells and coalmines and powerplants,  say nothing
of the horrible eyesores they are and the amount of birds they kill.
Who is the almighty being that decided the climate we have right now is perfect
and should not be warmed or cooled?

This has been the coldest winter I can remember and I am older than dirt.  Don't tell me
local weather fluctuations and your so called global warming aren't related until you spend
a couple dozen winters 1000 miles north of the nearest cabana.  People falling for this
global warming hoax are the most gullible marks ever to be flim flammed and will be led
to believe the next imminent catastrophe lie when this one wears out.

Ask me about global warming,  please.......

Pronghorn: Your picture is of the next imminent catastrophe. My nephew who is in the Marines and is 20 will be the generation being fed the giant cooling theory. I guess next it will be the magnetic field will reverse killing us all. I guess the  building of the Hoover dam caused that because according to some here the sloshing of the water in the reservoir makes the earth wobble. Dude, if you make it sound logical people will eat it up, regardless if it  has any redeeming scientific validity or not.  P.T. Barnum:"Their is a sucker born every minute.". Waddaya want to bet someone says we(you,I , and others who do not agree with them) are eating off the plate of big business when we state MMGW is a farce. They will say this without one iota of data to back it up, or will give out of date data from the mid to late 90's, or will shell out unfounded scientific garbage. HEY, ALL YOU BELIVERS OUT THERE!!! NEWS FLASH***DESPITE ATTEMPTS TO MANULIPATE THE DATA BY PLACING TEMPATURE RECORDING EQUIPMENT ON SOME OF THE HOTTESTS CONCRETE AND ASAPAULT IN ANY COMMUNITY( Airports, and the tops of buildings. What meteorological geniuses), THE TEMPATURE HAS GONE DOWN SINCE 1998. FOR THOSE OF YOU WITH A INABILITY TO PERFORM BASIC MATHMATIC EQUATIONS, THAT IS MORE THAN 10 YEARS!!! ***
I guess the Corporations manipulated that data, and paid me to post this. Sheeesh.

urban dwellers

how come the only information you accept is the garbage that allows you to keep spewing pollutants and garbage into the ecosystem?

rather self serving.

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2005/JudyTang.shtml

http://www.earthsystemtrends.org/20...-surface-temperature-1982-2007.html

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/earth_warm.html   

Well, then I guess I have one big question for everyone here.

If the politics and profit were removed from the situation, would you support or reject the theory of global climate change?

History says our climate changes - the dinosaurs disappeared in a very short time.  Many still had food in their stomachs.

We have always had catastrophic events.

As gold hunters, we absolutely know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that climate changes - it why we have overburden to deal with, it's why we dig tunnels into certain layers, it is why we have layers.  Places that were oceans are now deserts. Its why we have both lode and placer gold (and silver, etc)

As fossil hunters, we know that fossils are not just on top of the ground - they are  inbetween rock layers, from different "ages", and there are fossils from water creatures inbetween different rock formations, so we know there have been different "ages".

Our earth has continued to have volcanoes, and tsunami's and have water loss in places, more water in other places, species disappear, new species are found, - so, without a doubt, mother nature is a constantly changing process.

B

History says our climate changes - the dinosaurs disappeared in a very short time.  Many still had food in their stomachs.

We have always had catastrophic events.

As gold hunters, we absolutely know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that climate changes - it why we have overburden to deal with, it's why we dig tunnels into certain layers, it is why we have layers.  Places that were oceans are now deserts. Its why we have both lode and placer gold (and silver, etc)

As fossil hunters, we know that fossils are not just on top of the ground - they are  inbetween rock layers, from different "ages", and there are fossils from water creatures inbetween different rock formations, so we know there have been different "ages".

Our earth has continued to have volcanoes, and tsunami's and have water loss in places, more water in other places, species disappear, new species are found, - so, without a doubt, mother nature is a constantly changing process.

B

All these things are undeniable true, and we all know that the phrase "Global Climate Change" is a pretty broad definition, also that "Global Warming" is entirely inaccurate.

That being said, the changes taking place now are of most interest to us and our generation.  Did the human species and our presence on Earth bring about any of the changes we are seeing today, or would they have occurred even on an Earth entirely devoid of human life?

That is a bit of a different question.

I, purely from a personal point of view, cannot see how 6 billion people cannot have an impact.  Not of actual climate change, but from doing things that change the earth that helps accelerate climate change.

For instance, we make and use chemicals that were never meant to be in nature - from pesticides to chemicals that kill off dandylions - plus - one of my personal favorites - they bring creatures from one part of the world into a place where they don't belong, and we continuously cause problems worst than the ones we are trying to fix.

Instances include Kudzu for cheap animal feed, which animals here don't really seem to care for, (which not only became prolific, but kill native species, and are capable of taking down a house) multi-floral rose, "introduced species" - which quite often become "invasive species", animals that have no natural enemies when taken from their homes in another country, so become nuisances (not just the US does this - Australia brought in rabbits and rats that went berserk, killing off grasses and spreading lots of disease), different kinds of fish (we didn't used to have carp, now we have naturalized carp), the cane toad (a hallucinogenic toad, introduced from Hawaii into Australia to control cane beetles, went crazy, and now the Aussies are trying to find a "natural" way to kill them off, since they turned out to be very prolific - more than in Hawaii).

Then of course, there is the rain forests, and the decrease in potable water (which nobody talks about), etc., and some of the most stupid species being on protection lists.  Like here - a certain thistle is protected.  Back east, they are killing them by the thousands, because they are so prolific - they need the extra water that the east offers to be prolific, which we don't have here - but that doesn't mean they are endangered, by any means.  So, our 'good intentions' equal messing up mother nature.

Point being, we keep doing things that upset the balance of nature.  When nature isn't balanced, it does something different, because nature will prevail. And, we end up with accelerated or different weather, plant or animals patterns.

So, imo, we don't change the climate - we just change things that can affect the climate.

B

That is a bit of a different question.

I, purely from a personal point of view, cannot see how 6 billion people cannot have an impact.  Not of actual climate change, but from doing things that change the earth that helps accelerate climate change.

For instance, we make and use chemicals that were never meant to be in nature - from pesticides to chemicals that kill off dandylions - plus - one of my personal favorites - they bring creatures from one part of the world into a place where they don't belong, and we continuously cause problems worst than the ones we are trying to fix.

Instances include Kudzu for cheap animal feed, which animals here don't really seem to care for, (which not only became prolific, but kill native species, and are capable of taking down a house) multi-floral rose, "introduced species" - which quite often become "invasive species", animals that have no natural enemies when taken from their homes in another country, so become nuisances (not just the US does this - Australia brought in rabbits and rats that went berserk, killing off grasses and spreading lots of disease), different kinds of fish (we didn't used to have carp, now we have naturalized carp), the cane toad (a hallucinogenic toad, introduced from Hawaii into Australia to control cane beetles, went crazy, and now the Aussies are trying to find a "natural" way to kill them off, since they turned out to be very prolific - more than in Hawaii).

Then of course, there is the rain forests, and the decrease in potable water (which nobody talks about), etc., and some of the most stupid species being on protection lists.  Like here - a certain thistle is protected.  Back east, they are killing them by the thousands, because they are so prolific - they need the extra water that the east offers to be prolific, which we don't have here - but that doesn't mean they are endangered, by any means.  So, our 'good intentions' equal messing up mother nature.

Point being, we keep doing things that upset the balance of nature.  When nature isn't balanced, it does something different, because nature will prevail. And, we end up with accelerated or different weather, plant or animals patterns.

So, imo, we don't change the climate - we just change things that can affect the climate.

B

So it is your opinion that humans are impacting the climate of the Earth, but that we are doing this indirectly?  That makes perfect sense.  In the grand scheme of things, global climate change is being precipitated, at least in part, by us naked apes.  Since this does seem to be the case, aren't the people bringing this situation to light due a bit of positive attention? 

I know folks have an issue with the politics and profit involved here, but it's pretty clear that this situation is real and the government only became involved at a later time.  Just because there is government involvement does not make this a non-worthy cause. Just because people are making money does not mean that everything you read or see is a lie.   I think it's time we started to put aside our issues with the players in the game and focus on the game itself, eh?

Sorry I blew up

On the lighter side...

hundreds attend global warming protest...

I think that all humans who think that we as humans are destroying the planet should do their part and rid the world of their own world destroying hind ends.,  don't like what you are doing to the planet,  step off,  who's stopping ya?

wow...now that is pure science.

urban dwellers

how come the only information you accept is the garbage that allows you to keep spewing pollutants and garbage into the ecosystem?

rather self serving.

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2005/JudyTang.shtml

http://www.earthsystemtrends.org/20...-surface-temperature-1982-2007.html

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/earth_warm.html   

quote from pp's  http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2005/JudyTang.shtml                       website......

"Earth's surface is 33 degrees warmer than it would be if it had no atmosphere.

Okay,    and in the same vein,    if a frog had wings......         

            you know the rest

This is typical of the global warming alarmists
 
The earth is how old,    billions of years,    and at no time in those billions of years did the earth
maintain a steady average surface temperature.   Now comes the almighty global warming alarmist
scientist who through their almighty wisdom of maybe 7 years of schooling detemines that the
planet no longer has the right to have temperature fluctuations.     What the fluc?

wow...now that is pure science.

wake up call there pp,  believe it or not,  not all science is accurate and not all scientists are unbiased,

I could  get into a battle of copying and pasting website links,  but you wouldn't read them anyway,
your mind is closed,  I read your links,  didn't change my mind,  only confirmed to me that I am right!

Very true. I would also just like to add that spending money will not save the environment, nor wiill it have any effect on the global climate. So buy carbon credits if it makes you feel good. That is all it is good for.

Recycle all you want. It is a good thing. Take in your plastic bags and newspapers. Shred your aluminum cans. Get some of your money back. Just keep in mind that it won't do jack for the environment. It's not like they press a magic button and poof, reusable material suddenly appears. That takes fuel for a furnace and electricity for the shredder, the mixer, and all the other equipment. And it won't have any effect on the global climate. You may save an entire tree after about 50 years. But unless you enjoy wiping your ass with a pinecone, I wouldn't complain.

The fact of the matter is that the global temperature has always changed and always will change. You find yourself armed with 200 years of recorded weather data and the idea that a change must mean something is wrong. As though humans with their evil technology were destroying the planet. But what about the millions of years before that? Do they not count? Do the hundreds of other extreme climate changes not exist if a ratings-hungry newspaper doesn't print anything about it for you to bitch and moan over?

A new study released by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has turned the quest to quell global climate change on its ear. Measuring the greenhouse gas emissions in New York City, Atlanta, Chicago and Los Angeles, the EPA found that pollution has actually risen in the past five years in spite of conservation efforts. The primary explanation the agency has pinpointed is the ramped up production of "green" products and the widespread waste of less environmentally friendly ones. Hence the term "green pollution."

While production of cheap plastic bags is down, for instance, the greenhouse gas emissions from manufacturing and shipping canvas totes and reusable paper bags are up. And since hybrid cars have softened green guilt associated with driving, more cars are on the roads. Once green lifestyles become more affordable and mainstream, the EPA predicts that green pollution will plateau and then begin to decline.

I posted this somewhere else but I think it belongs here to.

scientists have figured out a way to stop the Arctic from melting until efforts to halt global warming begin to take effect. A group of international scholars has outlined plans to construct a dome-shaped freezer spanning 500 acres to protect arctic wildlife. It will be funded jointly by the United States, European Union and China.

The encasement will be built from insulated Plexiglas, and solar-powered refrigeration units will maintain icy-cold conditions inside. The tentatively named Arctic Preservation Dome will also house field researchers who will study the effects of the artificial habitat on flora and fauna.

April fools !

So, now we are trying to say that the climate doesn't ever change, no matter what?

I don't think so - that would mean chucking out millions of years of history, and, we'd have to find some other reason why the mammoths froze to death.

B

What are you talking about? Is it just me or are you completely lost?

Maybe you and I are reading entirely different posts.