florida group trying to get permit to remove Doc Noss Gold

sfloto,  sorry about the confusion.   What I meant was of the 7 sites that Doc claimed to his family this may be a site.  The previously attached photo was found in their personal photo archives.  I of course can not be certain but I did find it curious that the photos you posted matched photos that Doc Noss took 70 years ago.  You can decide for yourself.



cheers

-alex

Gollum,

All of your question boil down to ……why would people lie

I have done some small amount of research about VP but I cannot claim to be an expert

How did you hear Fiege and Berlette passed a polygraph (I don’t want an answer) was it first hand, Documented  or as I suspect a carefully conceived urban legend.

I don’t know any of the people in this story, But I feel I know human nature
1 Given the chance people will enhance a story if it means Money, fame or their 5 minutes in the spotlight
2 People rarely check facts, they hear something that sounds true and the next moment it is

Ask yourself this question … If you found a treasure of this magnitude and it was in an area that you could not control access How many people would you involve?

Correct me if I am wrong but Doc and Ova were divorced a few years after the find?

I am going to wrap up (need to actually work) and ask a question that nobody answered

Why in the middle of the depression, when gasoline is difficult to come by, would a man drive 140 mile RT to go deer hunting. From what I can determine 3 to 4 hours each way

SFloto

SFloto,

No, it does not boil down to "Why would people lie?" What it boils down to is ..... "Why would people lie until their dying day and fight tooth and nail for something, when they could have moved on and made more money elsewhere?"

Doc kept trying to get back into the cave system until he was killed in 1949. Ova kept trying to get back in until her death in 1980. Terry Delonas and his brother are still trying to get back in. Not the actions of people who know that the story is BS. Very simple. If you can't grasp that, then ..... I can't say it any clearer.

As far as the polygraph tests, read the book "Treasure of Victoria Peak" by Phil Khoury (one of Ova Noss' Attorneys). He exhaustively investigated the claims of Fiege and Berlette because they were rival claimants to the Noss Treasure Trove. If he could have proven the that the tests never happened, or that they had been found to be liars, it would have greatly helped the Noss' Case. He found that the tests had happened and both men were truthful. Before making statements like:

How did you hear Fiege and Berlette passed a polygraph (I don’t want an answer) was it first hand, Documented  or as I suspect a carefully conceived urban legend.

 ..... you might want to read up on a subject. Tough titty if you don't want an answer. There it was.

You seem to think that you have all the answers, but all you are doing is ignoring what doesn't fit your little theory. Its' okay. I see it all the time. Just go over to the Lost Dutchman Area. HAHAHA

I don’t know any of the people in this story, But I feel I know human nature
1 Given the chance people will enhance a story if it means Money, fame or their 5 minutes in the spotlight
2 People rarely check facts, they hear something that sounds true and the next moment it is

1. ABSOLUTELY TRUE!

2. In many cases that is true as well, but not me. After reading the story, I made it a point to talk to Tom Whittle, and I already knew Dr Lambert Dolphin. But I guess you know better than them. Please remind me of how much time you have spent with the Noss Family? Is it less than a second? I thought so. Interesting that you can make such sweeping assessments of peoples' characters without having spent a single minute in their presence. See, I have never personally met any of the Noss Family, but I know people who did know them quite well. People whose opinions I respect greatly and trust.

You still haven't answered the part about all the family and friends that assisted in bringing out gold bars and other objects from VP? I guess you have it right, and they were all lying? HAHAHA

What it all boils down to is that you should do a little more in depth research on the stories you intend to hunt down.

Best-Mike

All I know is what my father and uncle would say, when I was a child and up to my early teens, at family get togethers. I never bothered to keep up to date with the whole deal, because I was always told it was all a bunch of mis-information cover stories to confuse people, mostly our allies and the Russians. It was an originally a screw up that worked quite well for the military. My father said that the project name was different than the ones they used for human trials and has not been released, he never said what the project name was either.

As I said, the panda's heart is most similar a human heart in size, more so than a monkey or dog heart. When they ejected the test subjects, most test were done before they did any human trials, they pushed/ejected them out of an airplane with varying degrees of protection at 100,000+ plus feet, the speed of the airplane plus that of re-entry into the lower atmosphere is going to heat you up real quick. Look at the protective gear that was used when the first human test jump was made from that altitude, how did they know what was needed to protect him from the altitude, the speed and the re-entry into the lower atmosphere.

Also, in the 1940s, there was no such thing as PETA. If you use animals as test subjects, which the military did on a regular basis, you are going to keep it as quiet as possible. The military still uses animals as test subjects until the project is deemed safe for human tests. The items found at the Roswell crash site in 1947 were the remains of the test subjects, the parachute, and other items related to the safety system, which failed miserably. He said that the ejection system caught a wind that blew it over twenty miles off course from the intended landing site. Other tests that day also blew off course as well. There was one test where they recovered the parachute system only, the rest was never found. There were three test subjects and the safety gear they were fitted with. So somewhere North and East of Roswell is the remains of that particular test. They did use Mylar as a type of protection (hence the report of a shiny metallic material that was very flexible), since they knew that it helped protect a subject from some types of radiation, especially at higher altitude. Only three of all the tests did any test subject live through the ejection process to landing, only five animals lived.

I am sorry my posts about Roswell took this topic of the original subject.

UTHUNTER,

This is TNet. If things didn't go off topic here once in a while we would all go nuts! HAHAHA

Actually, the closest thing to a human heart is a Pig's Heart. That is why Pig Heart Valves are used in human heart valve transplants.

Best-Mike

Gollum I thought this may help your "discussion",  with floto.  Below is an excerpt from The Gold House book II page 50.


More information concerning the existence of gold bars inside Victorio Peak appears in a document generated by the government. According to the official “Lie Detector Examination Report” submitted by James H. McNevin on September 13, 1961. Major General W.M. Canterbury Commander at Holloman AFB had personally requested Fiege’s test. The test was authorized by the “District Commander, OSI District 17” and was “conducted from 1320 to 1435 on September 5, 1961, at Holloman AFB, New Mexico.” The 17th OSI District is situated at Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico, the second largest base in the United States. McNevin was a “Lie Detector Examiner” from the 17th Office of Special Investigations (OSI) at Kirtland AFB. Whether or not the FBI and the Treasury Department were also involved is not known; however, it is not unlikely they were somehow involved in the planning, sanctioning and implementation of the examination.
Fiege “was informed of the nature of the offense and advised of his rights under Article 31 and acknowledged that he understood his rights.” The polygraph examination undergone by Leonard Vernon Fiege and Thomas Berlett produced the following results:
Did you find bricks in a cave in the San Andres Mountains in November? Yes.
Is your statement concerning the finding of the bricks completely true? Yes.
Did you or any of your companions bring any of the bricks out of the cave? No.
Did Berlett also see these bricks in the cave? Yes.
After an analysis of the charts pertaining to this examination, it is the opinion of the examiner that the Examinee was truthful in his answers to the above questions. —James H. McNevin
~
One question remains concerning the polygraph testing; what was the meaning of “nature of the offense” and why was it necessary to advise Fiege “of his rights under Article 31” prior to the examination? If Fiege, Berlett, and their two other friends were guilty of a crime, what was the nature of the offence? The group claimed they were hunting the day they found the cave entrance at Victorio Peak, and according to Shinkle, it was a designated hunting area. Was it a crime for them to enter the cave, or could it be they were charged with a violation of the Gold Reserve Act for possessing the gold simply by picking up some of the bars? Apparently there were charges made, but what they were is unknown. And there was yet another incident that centered on Fiege’s credibility, an event that took place at the home of Thayer Snipes in El Paso, Texas.


" The greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about"

cheers,

-alex

Thanks Alex,

Yes, those are very cleverly forged documents you have presented there! A fine example of a "carefully conceived urban legend."

I believe that when the higher authorities learned about Fiege and Berlette's entry into the caves, they didn't believe their story about not taking out any gold bars and filed charges against them pursuaqnt to FDR's 1933 Gold confiscation Order. Notice how the polygrapher was careful not to use words like "gold bars" "bars" "ingots" or anything else that might connote something valuable. Do you think the person administering the polygraph test came up with that verbiage on his own? HIGHLY UNLIKELY! Why, also, didn't the polygrapher ask what those "BRICKS" were made of? Maybe because they already knew and didn't want to leave any official trail! Just like in Khoury's Book, when he spoke with Fiege personally. Fiege was very careful not to say what he believed the bars were composed of. The Government/Military has NEVER admitted that what was under VP had any intrinsic value.

Best-Mike

 

If I read this right the test took 1 hour and 15 min.  and they only asked 4 questions?

If I read this right the test took 1 hour and 15 min.  and they only asked 4 questions?

Hey King,

You did read it wrong. Read Section# 3 in its' entirety. Before the four questions, it clearly states that the "RELEVANT QUESTIONS WERE...."

Best-Mike

My bad,  I see why the test took so long.    But they don't say how many bricks (bars) they saw.  this may have been on of the stashes that Doc left around the place.  Plus Jolly should have picked them up after the shooting.

sfloto,  sorry about the confusion.   What I meant was of the 7 sites that Doc claimed to his family this may be a site.  The previously attached photo was found in their personal photo archives.  I of course can not be certain but I did find it curious that the photos you posted matched photos that Doc Noss took 70 years ago.  You can decide for yourself.



cheers

-alex

I guess this is Willy's site that they talk about.  do you have any more pic's of caves from doc?

CPTBIL or Alex,  how many sites are there? how many had gold bars? is there any chance that Doc's or willies Sites have already been found and looted? more cave pictures please. 

sfloto,  sorry about the confusion.   What I meant was of the 7 sites that Doc claimed to his family this may be a site.  The previously attached photo was found in their personal photo archives.  I of course can not be certain but I did find it curious that the photos you posted matched photos that Doc Noss took 70 years ago.  You can decide for yourself.



cheers

-alex

I believe that Doc Noss found treasure, and later the Army with heavy equipment took all the treasures. The wood that the Army used, is still there.

This is one of my sons, George:

I agre ewith #97.

I agree with #97.  I live in Bridgeport Connecticut and have no plans to visit the site,  I want to know what did the Army did with the treasure.

I agree with #97, I live in Bridgeport Connecticut and have no plans to visit the site.  What did the Army do with the treasures?

[personnel]

Maybe the question would be better put if we asked:

What did the Army personnel do with the treasure??

I'm convinced that the treasure was stolen from the Noss' - but I tend to think that the "Army" per se, as a unit, may not have been as much involved as the personnel on that base - were involved - and Uncle Sam may not have benefitted from it at the time.  My thoughts being that the base personnel took the loot, and then, by the time the Noss family complained to the Army, those folks on the base had already made their
fortunes.  (base commander, maybe - though some think that the money was used for bribes in Southeast Asia - Laos, Cambodia, etc.).

I also firmly believe that - if any group is NOT representing the Noss family - they have no right to anything - including being allowed to look.

Beth

I agree with Beth.  Army staff station at White Sand took the treasure.  Who did they gave it to?

Personally - and this is just an opinion - nothing that has facts to back it up - but - I think whoever was involved, divided it up, hid it until they
all left the Army, and then went and retrieved it.

Split up into however many people were involved - it would make it much easier to get rid of.  They could have even gone off-base and buried it, just like Noss did.  And, of course, there is always the black market - I'm sure someone would have paid to get their hands on the loot.

Beth

Many great stories.

One story says the Army took the gold to Fort Knox. We may never know.

Personally - and this is just an opinion - nothing that has facts to back it up - but - I think whoever was involved, divided it up, hid it until they
all left the Army, and then went and retrieved it.

Split up into however many people were involved - it would make it much easier to get rid of.  They could have even gone off-base and buried it, just like Noss did.  And, of course, there is always the black market - I'm sure someone would have paid to get their hands on the loot.

Beth

Black Market ain't as easy as many people might think. Here is about four minutes of a 1.5 hour interview with Tony Jolley who helped Noss rebury 110 bars of gold the night before he was shot, and later went back and managed to recover 10 of them.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/FfvnouvcvG8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/FfvnouvcvG8</a>

Mike

I am happy for Tony.  I hope that he enjoy spending the money that he received from selling the gold bars.

Gollum,

The black market is VERY easy - always has been, always will be.

If you don't think so - you just don't know the right people. 

Of course, in my defense of knowing this - my daughter's godfather was a real godfather - he has passed away now - but, if you have ever lived in a place like NYC, you won't have a speck of a problem finding someone.

As a "for instance" - there are many, many painting still missing - million dollars paintings - some stolen right out of museums that have incredible security -  the black market is alive and well in place like Chicago, NYC and other places.

I doubt that someone would bother with a rinkydink local outfit to get rid of something like what disappeard from Victorio Peak.

Just last month, they recovered some paintings that have been missing since the 90's.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...amp;gl=us&source=www.google.com

There is a difference though - the black market has become much more refined than it used to be.  I'm not talking about your local "fencing outfit", I'm talking about sophisticated black market industry - its alive and well.

Beth

Beth,

Did you watch the Tony Jolley Interview? He specifically says that people who can buy 10 bars of gold aren't just standing on every street corner. He had to sit on them for a year before he and a friend figured a way to move them. Remember, at that time, private ownership of gold (over 5 ounces) was illegal.

I could instantly move any amount of gold I wanted, but I know for a fact that I am in a great minority. 99% of John Q Public could not do that.

So, you are saying that you have the resources to dispose of millions of dollars in gold bullion at a moment's notice? Someone that could just hand you 10-15 million dollars in cash in return for a pile of gold bars? In as many years as I have been at this, I only know one person associated with the field who could. The only reason I am in this position is because I sold highline cars for many years (Mercedes, Land Rover, Jaguar) and have met some customers that even now are very fluid. When they were looking through my photo album waiting to go into Finance, the subject of how to dispose of finds comes up. I have been made some great offers by people whom I have later become friends with.

Best-Mike

Gollum,

Gee, who's post did you read?  Certainly not mine.

I didn't say anything about ME being able to do anything of the sort.

I'm saying that you are being naiive if you think the black market has almost disappeared.  Yes - I used to know folks who could do that sort of thing. I also have several close personal friends who are multi-millionaires. (and, by the way, a brother who is/was in the exact same line of high-end cars - who know folks too).

Nobody is talking about waiting on a street corner - you seem to be having your own conversation that I wasn't a part of.  You really need to stop doing that, and read what I wrote.

If you know what you SAY you know - then you know the black market doesn't work like that.  NOBODY ever trades goods for bucks. NEVER - if they do - it is because they have already made the "connection" and are delivering goods.

Do you really want to talk specifics?  Because, I can do that, in this case.

There have been many, many - MANY - multi-million dollar transactions - and the perpetrators are well-known, respected individuals - even a well known church or two.  People in the "common" world would shutter if they knew how many of those well-respected people have homes or special basements with riches of the world, from gold, silver and platinum bars, to paintings, to jewels to what have you.

Considering the fact that the ARMY had something to do with the missing loot - do you really expect anyone to buy the fact that THEY could not make gold bars and loot "disappear"?  Come on, now.  Get real.  Where is Jimmy Hoffa?


Beth

 

[He specifically says that people who can buy 10 bars of gold aren't just standing on every street corner.]

Did you watch the Tony Jolley Interview? He specifically says that people who can buy 10 bars of gold aren't just standing on every street corner.

I could instantly move any amount of gold I wanted, but I know for a fact that I am in a great minority. 99% of John Q Public could not do that.

I tend to agree with Mrs Oro here.

Even using your own quotes and figures.

Approx population of USA  = 300 million

1% of 300,000,000 = 3,000,000

3,000,000 / 50 States = 60,000 per State

How many street corners in each state ?

Sfloto,  I thought you might appreciate this photo,  you have seen this ladder before but this photograph was taken in the 1940's by Doc Noss.  This picture was in the family archives.  You guys are in the right place!

Let me get this right …….  The cave in the Caballo mountains   70 miles from Victorio Peak is the right Spot to find Doc Noss’s gold

This comment by Alex Alanzo leaves me baffled, Here is why

Are the new books coming out agreeing with me that the treasure is located in the caballos?

I am Hoping he will clarify  “right place”

Sfloto, thats what I got from victorio peaks post too. But the goal posts keep getting moved  everytime someone questions any documents or quotes.
I actually believe you are in the right place, but its only based on my own theories to do with a different story that may be linked, at least there is some circumstantial evidence to support it.

How are things progressing at your site ?

 

Beth,

You said:

The black market is VERY easy - always has been, always will be.

If you don't think so - you just don't know the right people.

Of course, in my defense of knowing this - my daughter's godfather was a real godfather - he has passed away now - but, if you have ever lived in a place like NYC, you won't have a speck of a problem finding someone.

OH SURE! You would trust the Mob or a Drug Cartel to take your black market gold and not just kill you and keep everything for themselves? Yeah sure! I am sure you know people with those basements full of black market loot. I know a lot of people with a lot of money, but I don't personally know anybody that has a secret multi million dollar art collection. I say it again, Jolley had to sit on those ten bars for a year before he and a friend found a way to move them quietly and safely.

Peerless,

I sincerely hope that was an attempt at humor? LOL

Now, did reading retention suddenly drop when I was away? This is part of some of that confidential information I was talking about on the other thread. The reason for Martian Monster's "ridiculous" statement is because of the name on the map Alex refers to in this post (it is on THIS page #102):

Gollum, again you are correct about why would the Noss's waste their time on Victorio Peak if the treasure were elsewhere.  Well, all I can say is what I heard Letha say. Doc had found maps,  and text related documents within the Peak. Once the blast that shut him out of the Peak happened he turned to Caballo Mountain.  On one occasion Doc invited Letha who went with him to Caballo.  She told me she was annoyed with him and said,  "why are we here,  isn't all the treasure at the Peak?"  He said it was but he knew of 6 more locations based on a maps,  of which he only found three.  These were located in Caballo.  This may explain the multiple location issues.  I can tell you that there are many photographs from the 40's of Caballo.  At one time it made me wonder if we were in the right spot.  But,  Letha confirmed first hand and handle many bars in 1938 and she said they came out of the Peak. She never did see any of the other gold sites but was convinced they were in Caballo.  One of the sites was what Willie Doughit found.  Willie and Doc were good friends, and drinking buddies,  as Willie put it.  I believe Willie's site is empty.  But somewhere are 5 more sites.

Now Gollum you mentioned Swanner and I thought I would share this photo I took while we were exploring what we called "Soldier's Hole" in Victorio Peak.    Note the carbine light inscription on the wall to the right.  I have a straight on shot but I can't find it at the moment.  One for your library.

cheers,

-alex

I hope that answers yours and sfloto's question.

Mike

..... I tend to agree with Mrs Oro here ...

Only up to a point.  Yes, if you are rich, have been rich for quite a while, know other rich people, have connections among rich people, then you live on a level unknown to most people.  You can do off-the-books deals with confidence and security.  We all know that.

However, if you are an average Joe and suddenly come into possession of valuables and want to trade them for cash, you are quite vulnerable to many kinds of trouble.  It's totally naive to believe your sugar daddy can be found on any street corner.  If any of us found ourselves in this situation, we can only hope we would handle it the way Jolley described his actions - slow and careful.  Otherwise, the unexperienced most likely would end up ripped off, in jail or dead. 

Peerless,

I sincerely hope that was an attempt at humor? LOL

Mike, yes it was humour, but only to show your own quotes were inaccurate. Whereas my math was spot on. 


Sprinfield, what you said carries some weight also, but even for people who do not have large amounts of money it is possible, we have family in California who own hard rock mines. Where that would not help in a case like Noss with his 100 tons, for smaller amounts it could be useful.
I think thats what Mrs Oro was putting across, its not what you know its who you know.

 

Peerless,

I sincerely hope that was an attempt at humor? LOL

Mike, yes it was humour, but only to show your own quotes were inaccurate. Whereas my math was spot on.  


Sprinfield, what you said carries some weight also, but even for people who do not have large amounts of money it is possible, we have family in California who own hard rock mines. Where that would not help in a case like Noss with his 100 tons, for smaller amounts it could be useful.
I think thats what Mrs Oro was putting across, its not what you know its who you know.

 

See,

I recognized that! HAHAHA I can appreciate a very dryyyyyyyyyyyy sense of humor as I have loooooooooooooooooong been a huge fan of the Python. "He's not the messiah. He's a very naughty boy!"

Best-Mike

Anyone know if Sfloto got his website up and running ? I would like to take a look.

 

You forgot to mention that there are a lot of snakes there too.

Snakes? Where?   

Winter is such a great time to be in the deserts of our country.

Beth

Hi Beth

No big snakes for me.  Sent pictures of them.

Hola amigo Connecticut Danny,

I fear that Mrs O is pulling your leg here buddy, all snakes go into hibernation in the southwest over the winters, so you won't see one if you should make a visit during the winter.  Very unlikely to see a scorpion either - they don't care for the cold and it gets mighty cold at night over most of the southwest in winter.
Oroblanco

 

PS side note here but the largest rattler I have ever encountered in my life was in the east; it had taken up residence in a hand dug well on my brother's farm in PA.  Its head was larger than my fist, and body correspondingly large.  About the only place I know of that you are not likely to encounter the unpleasant sort of reptiles in summer is in Alaska, and there are a different sort of wildlife there to keep things interesting.

Me?  Pulling leg?  Why, Oro - how could you say such a thing?   Hmmmm.


Actually - I was kidding around - we go into mine tunnels in the winter all the time - the time to stop doing that is when the first mojave comes out and catches a kangaroo rat.  When the rats start disappearing, so do I.   

 

One year, in a mine tunnel, I saw this rat hole - looked into the rat hole with a flashlight, and was starting a snake in the face.  It was April, and the snake was still slow - but, I sure wasn't.  April, even in the desert, is cool in the mines, but, they warm up outside and then come on in!!

Beth

Good stories Beth... Keep in touch.

Just wondering if there were any updates by sfloto about his exploits in the Caballos. It's been an interesting read and I'd like to know if any progress has been made on their cave/possible cache site.

Scott

I agree with #66.  Most publish treasures stories are untrue.  That is why I am seeking unpublished stories about Connecticut treasures.  lovejoydc@att.net

My personal opinion is that most published treasure stories are not "untrue" - the problem with treasure legends, is that they get twisted, changed, have a bad case of "telephone/telephone" (that game we played as kids, where you tell someone something, and by the time you get to the end of the class, the whole message has changed).

The trick to treasure legends is that - at some point - something was probably there to start it - and finding its origin and the real facts - that is the problem. 

The folks who can do that.........................sometimes get results.


Beth

My personal opinion is that most published treasure stories are not "untrue" - the problem with treasure legends, is that they get twisted, changed, have a bad case of "telephone/telephone" (that game we played as kids, where you tell someone something, and by the time you get to the end of the class, the whole message has changed).

The trick to treasure legends is that - at some point - something was probably there to start it - and finding its origin and the real facts - that is the problem. 

The folks who can do that.........................sometimes get results.


Beth

Absolutely - that's why the famous legends are unsolved, at least to the satisfaction of most.  Unless you can get to the protagonist himself, it's guaranteed that you will be working with disinformation, whether intentional or otherwise.  Of course, the protagonist is likely deceased (but not always), so if you get 'good' info, you have to be lucky enough to find personal notes, a journal or family information.  This, of course, is essentially impossible.  Yes, the legends were presumably sparked by some event, quite possibly radically different than what people later believe with all their heart. 

In the Noss case, the man was a convicted of horse thievery in OK and convicted of practicing medicine without a license in TX - and this was before he served prison time in NM or got involved in treasure hunting and/or scamming in Hot Springs (T or C).  Then we have his lucky deer hunt in Hembrillo Basin in 1937 and the soap opera that's been dragging on ever since.  It's difficult for me to swallow that his descendents would be able to shed light on the 'truth' of the legend, but I'll probably pony up for the new book and see what they have to say. 

I agree with #66.  Most publish treasures stories are untrue.  That is why I am seeking unpublished stories about Connecticut treasures.  lovejoydc@att.net

Not to discourage you Danny but un-published stories are a minefield of true and false too.  The one benefit with the published stories is that you can often check them out.  Many are documented, with some effort you can find it.  Un-published stories can be of the campfire or saloon variety, made up on the spot to entertain or fool the listeners, then gets passed along and there is no basis of fact.  I think if you will research the published lost treasure stories you may well be surprised at how many really are true. 

Good luck and good hunting Danny, I hope you find the treasures you seek in Connecticut.
Oroblanco

Jon
What is the latest update? Take care.