MAN LOST IN SUPERSTITIONS

[Jesse Capen]

All,

Recieved this from Roger today:


[There is an individual, Jesse Capen from Denver, Colorado, who has gone missing in the Superstitions since Dec 5th.  Jesse is a white male, about 35 yrs old, 5'8'' tall, 205 lbs, and has dark hair and eyes.  He parked his jeep at the Tortilla Ranch Trailhead and set up a tent camp at Kane Spring area.  It appears that he had not been in his camp for the past 8 to 10 days.  He had some maps in his jeep and tent marked with places in Peters Canyon around Cottonwood Seep and the mouth of Pistol Canyon.  The Maricopa County Sheriff's office has done an air and ground search for a number of days, but has now called it off unless they get some leads on where to look.

Jesse's family said he was going to Arizona to look for the Dutchman's Mine or treasure.  They think he had been corresponding with someone in Arizona about the LDM or possibly on one of the LDM Forums.

A Specific Question:  Have any of you had any communication with Jesse Capen and have any idea of where he might have been headed in the Superstitions?  If that detail were available, the MCSO would restart the search in that area.

Appreciate any input you have on this subject.

Thanks,

Roger]
___________________________________

Joe

Dear cactusjumper;
Why doesn't someone go out and find him with some bloodhounds? Because of the ultra-dry climes, a scent can hang around for weeks and weeks before dissipating. It might be a good idea to raise up a couple of good scent hounds to find those lost LDM searchers, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Maybe he found the gold and went missing

All,

I received a request today as well to post that information on the TNET site - the only slightly additional information I was sent is copied below and highlighted in red.

This kind of story kind of hits home after I spent 3/4 days in the exact same area described a couple years ago.


A Specific Question:  Have any of you had any communication with Jesse Capen and have any idea of where he might have been headed in the Superstitions?  If that detail were available, the MCSO would restart the search in that area.  If you have any information, please contact the Mesa District Office of MCSO at 602-876-1853.

This case reinforces that hikers in the Superstition Wilderness need an emergency satellite communicator for emergency situations - especially if going in alone.  This could easily mean the difference between life and death.

Here it is:

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/new.../missing-treasure-hunter-12-23-2009

Agreeing with cactusjumper

Good evening:  Hmm  a man that is 5'8" and weighs 205 # isn't in condition to really go roaming around the Superstitions. Possibly had a cardiac arrest.

Don Jose de La Mancha

          My dad was a big fan of the LDM stories as have been I . One thing that is not mentioned very much is that there are some folks there that are very territorial about that section of land . Some have been searching for that mine for 20 or 30 years . They view every new face as a poacher on a claim they have yet to find . Every new person is viewed as competition and are considered a trespasser . There have been fatalities . Teams are better than singles .

To the family and friends of Jesse Capen if you are reading this - don't give up hope, I know of cases where people have gone missing for months and turned up alive and well.  It is possible that he will hike his way out on his own too. 

Has anyone contacted Randy (Djui) I know he hikes in the Supers frequently, maybe he has seen something?
Roy ~ Oroblanco

All,

Please keep in mind that this man's family may very well be checking into sites like ours.

If you feel the urge to post something, consider their feelings right now.  Remember, this could be you or someone you love.

Our thoughts and prayers are with Jesse Capen and his family.

Joe Ribaudo

Couldn't agree with you more Joe!!

There's alot of dutch hunters who frequent these sites who live in the area, and I'm hoping that if the weather is good for hiking out there as I think it usually is this time of year, one or more of those folks can get back into some of those more remote areas and see what they can do to help!

My thoughts are with him and his family as well!

If we were still in Arizona - we'd be right there.

I have contacted a couple of people I know, who know the supers well - including that area where he went in.

I'm saying my prayers every night for this man.


B

If the SAR group has suspended its mission, there is nothing preventing concerned volunteers from trying to locate the missing subject on their own.  However, only those with significent experience in this type of dangerous and remote terrain should consider engaging in any sort of 'private search', and should never venture out in a group of less than three people, minimum, at any time.  The recent SAR Incident Commander should be advised and consulted prior to any activity - he/she may be able to provide valuable information about what they have found so far.

Even though the subject has been out for quite a while, there are any number of reasons for his absence, some obvious, some not.  I'm familiar with two searches in New Mexico for 'treasure hunters' who were never lost and when 'found', refused assistance.       

CJ,

On the news yesterday or the day before - they were asking for any volunteers who knew the area, so, I don't know.  Once the search is called off, it may turn into a recovery search.

Either way - anyone who knows the area - especially if they are already out there - I do believe is welcome to look - why would you not.

I've never searched the Supers for a lost person, but I have participated in a couple of other searches - and not one time have the police said no.

B

We've been in the supers for weeks on end, so, it could be a matter of - crap, I lost my tent and stuff, but, upward and onwards. (it does get cold when it rains up there - especially if you get wet).

CJ,

Please don't take this wrong - or out of context, but more than one person has gone without help when others have an attitude of "it's not my job".

If you have ever watched "I Survived", you will hear, on a regular basis, that people asked for help and people just slammed doors or drove on by.

If I lived in Arizona, I could not live with myself if I had personal knowledge of an area, and didn't at least check out the areas that I knew.  Just
think, if it was one of YOUR family members or friends - would you want it limited to people who might know the area, but don't have a clue where a treasure hunter might go?

Of course, we do handle our trips to the Supers differently than you, I believe - you have people who pack you in and set you up - I wouldnn't do that, personally, but there is a reason you do that - but it limits the areas that you know, to the areas that those who set you up take you to.

B

CJ,

See, I told you not to take my statement wrong, and you did anyway.

I was NOT belittling your time in the Supers - and, here's another deal - we are not very far apart in age (I am considerably older than Roy), and I still pack myself in and out from everywhere we go, including the Supers (except for the year following my stroke).  It's not a "pissing" contest, Joe, it is a simple matter of you giving me the feeling that if someone is not part of some elite group, that they have no business being there.
I gotta tell you - one of my pet peeves in life in people who never step out of their comfort zone and just say "IT'S NOT MY JOB".  Because, I gotta tell you - I would trust many treasure hunters, right here at Tnet, to find me in the Supers, over JUST the guys that make grids to search, otherwise known as the "professionals".  Because they have been there and know that treasure hunters go off the trail - they leave their tents to go on little side hunts, they know you can find shelter in a cave - and where some of those caves are, etc.

I will re-iterate my point - what if it was one of your family members and the "my poop doesn't stink" experts hadn't find them - would you, or would you not, appreciate the fact that you have friends and other folks who might be helpful?

So, are you saying that it would be a hindrance, rather than a help, for an experienced treasure hunter to be helping, if they were very familiar with the area?

Heck, that IS our area of expertise - it IS the area that we have spent many many nights and days.

If you are simply talking about coordination of efforts - that's a whole 'nother story, and not really what I hear you saying.

B

So - I guess I have to assume that if I ever get lost in the Supers, that I cannot count on you? 

B

Many of our searches are done at night

Do you have that going on in your neck of the woods very often?

You are right about it being a specific skill - that was one of the things they trained Mr. O in when he was a corrections officer.  Even working with dogs is a specialty, separate from man tracking man.

B

The government,ours,haha, U.S., has satellites with all kinds of cababilities that could grid search and probably find this lost person very fast. I see no reason  why all taxpayers should not have access to these technologys we all paid for.  I say to the family of the missing man, hang in there , pray, and dont give up hope.

I've seen cops use dogs on TV,  but I have to admit - while Roy has been on Correctional man-hunts, I have never been a part of one.  Though, my job in the Army was veterinarian assistant - but to mostly other kinds of dogs. (and other creatures).

I have to say, I was really, really, impressed with the dogs from the prison that Roy worked at.  There was never a successful completed escape, between the dog guys, and the men (the ones that hunted without the dogs).

Of course, they always let them "have a little taste of hot blood", as it were, as a reward, but they were really good.  They are the only dogs I really have seen working. (other than on TV).

They sent Roy to a special school, and the day he graduated, on our way home, there were police and correction officers all over the place, not too far from the prison (about 10 -12 miles) from our house.  We stopped, and of course, he had to go.  (I also hated the unexpected phone calls).

But, within the hour, they had the guy. (which forever impressed me, mostly because he was in a swamp).

I was just wondering if they get day-timers or long-term campers that get lost in your area. (here, its usually the weekend warriors/campers/hunters).  In fact, yesterday - actually towards evening, they had helicopters up looking for someone or something, but it didn't come over the local scanners), and it only lasted about an hour or so - so I think they were looking for an accident area.  Here, like many parts of Arizona, once you turn down a dirt road, you can go forever without seeing another car). So, if you have an accident, it sometimes takes awhile.
The same if you go wandering the hills.

But, thankfully - some people can stay out forever, and are very resourceful.

I just really hope that everything goes well.

Ghostdog,

Have you been watching Jessee Ventura's show?

B

... Many of our searches are done at night.......most actually.  You would be amazed at how a track will show up with a flashlight.  Mantracking is an art, as well as a learned skill...

Ive been with Grant County SAR here in NM for the past 15 years.  Nearly all searches begin at night - hiking in the mountains at 3am with lights is SOP.  Tracks are much easier to find in the dark with a low-held flashlight than during daylight because of the illumination angle.  You'd be surprised how much more easily.  We often are fortunate to have US Border Patrol volunteers aid our efforts.  They are professional trackers and are very, very good at it.  Even though NM has a couple dozen certified SAR teams of various sizes and expertices, it's not unusual on a large search to use additional resources as required - National Guard volunteers, mounted patrol groups, Arizona SAR teams, etc.  It's a reasonably well-oiled machine considering that it's all vounteer. 

A grid search of difficult terrain is impossible, of course.  That's why any knowledge of the subject's plans or clues found on trails (footprints, flagging, cairns, litter, etc.) are so important - if the subject goes cross-country, the searchers want to know where he left the trail.  This way, the search area can be better concentrated.  Frequently, the State Police and National Guard will provide helicopter grid flights, including at night with FLIR, looking for fires, signals, and if lucky, the subject.  This is an invaluable tool as it is, as mentioned, virtually impossible to ground search our terrain off-trail, even with scent dogs. 

And Beth - anyone who has specific experience in the search area who can be of help is always welcomed, under the supervision of the SAR commander while the mission is under way.  If there is no official search occurring, then 'citizen volunteers' are on their own and can do as they wish.  These types of people often later join a SAR team because of this type of 'can-do' attitude.  A number of 'finds' here have been made by ranchers, rural residents, etc.

Dear cactusjumper;
One word, my friend. GPS (OK, that's an abbreviation of three words, but if you say the three initials quickly enough, it becomes a word).

Does anyone know if the lost gentleman had a GPS unit with him? If so, then one may conclude that:
1) The GPS is not functioning (unlikely)
2) He is not lost and therefore does not wish to be found. (Again unlikely)
3) He has met with an injury and he cannot return to his jump off point under his own volition. (most likely)
Your friend;
LAMAR

Beth,

"Many of our searches are done at night

Do you have that going on in your neck of the woods very often?

You are right about it being a specific skill - that was one of the things they trained Mr. O in when he was a corrections officer.  Even working with dogs is a specialty, separate from man tracking man."

It seems that most searches are done after the family calls to report someone has not come back to camp or home.  That call is usally prompted by the sun going down.

I worked with dogs in Vietnam.  It was a specialty, but a different kind of search.  Unless you have one really fine dog, I am not a big fan.  That being said, there are some dogs that are LEGEND!

Joe

Dear cactusjumper;
I once had a hound that was so cold nosed, he could track a dinosaur. Top that for a legend, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear cactusjumper;
One word, my friend. GPS (OK, that's an abbreviation of three words, but if you say the three initials quickly enough, it becomes a word).

Does anyone know if the lost gentleman had a GPS unit with him? If so, then one may conclude that:
1) The GPS is not functioning (unlikely)
2) He is not lost and therefore does not wish to be found. (Again unlikely)
3) He has met with an injury and he cannot return to his jump off point under his own volition. (most likely)
Your friend;
LAMAR

Whether or not the subject had a gps with him is irrelevant in the minds of those trying to find him.  Unless the SAR team found evidence to the contrary (eg a notebook with target gps coordinates), the subject's possible possession of a gps is no more important to their search plan than his possible possession of a cell phone, ham radio, map & compass or any other gear.

Springfield,

Thanks for your post.  I was not trying to discredit those folks (professionals) who were out looking - only the possibilities of searchers NOT knowing where - or - what, a treasure hunter, in particular, may choose to do. (different from the everyday "hiker"), that a prospector or treasure hunter might be able to figure out, especially if they were well acquainted with the area in particular.

Gosh, we have been out in that area and seen joggers - not even a day pack - no water - 4 miles back in.  We actually had a lady jogger ask us why in heavens name would we carry water - duh!  I asked her why she didn't pack ANY water - which, of course, the answer was - she wasn't planning on being there for very long.

It is upsetting to me, probably because I do know that area, really well, and I know there are places there that someone could "hole up" for days, I know the side trails that are very hard to see but a treasure hunter might take a day trip to, I know where there is water that's not on a map - stuff like that.

I do know that night-tracking is very efficient - never did it looking for a person, but sure have had the "opportunity" to track at night after an archery deer hunt gone long. (we never leave hit game in the field), and the blood trail was gone, but we knew he was hit and wouldn't be surviving the run.

Since you have experience - I wonder about the cell phone deal (before they found it).  Once, when we were traveling, there was an accident on the highway. (not us).  The elderly gentleman could not get out of the car - he was pinned by his airbag and seatbelt.  I opened my cell to call
911, and found out that I had no battery life left, and no bars.  (great, eh?)  Someone had told me that emergency services could be reached even without an account, so I gave it a shot, and dialed 911.  Somehow, the police answered.  I told them I wasn't even sure what mileage marker we were at, and the police officer asked me if they could "track" my signal - I said ok, and within a short time, he told me exactly where we were, and they dispatched an ambulance, police cars and a tow truck.  I am assuming the GPS (inside the cell phone) gave them the info.  I know we couldn't use it, but the police certainly did.

Is that a normal operational procedure?  The second question would be thermal imaging. (these are things that weren't available back just a few years ago - at least, not as normal equipment that would be available to a smaller city or state.)

B

Mrs Burnett please accept my humble apologies for our rude and thoughtless comments.  Do not give up on your son, there are springs and water tanks (natural) in that area and even edible plants (mesquite beans) which could sustain a man for a very long time.  There are also caves in which to shelter.  People have gotten lost for much longer periods of time than he has been and turned up alive and well.

If there is anything you can think of that might help the searchers to locate him, please don't hesitate to share it. I am in SD so cannot directly assist in the search but we have some very capable and experienced people who are looking and any bit of info might help.
Roy A. Decker ~ Oroblanco

An inch of rain falling in that area less than an hour means flash flooding!

Hey - 

Get it?

A couple of years ago, a bunch of boyscouts were trapped there by flash floods - they all got out, alive and well.

B

[know that they WILL find him]

PS to Mrs Burnett and the family and loved ones of Jesse - know that they WILL find him.  It is just a matter of time.
Sincerely,
Roy 

Dear Ms. Barnett;
First, there are no jerks commenting about your sons' health. You need to understand that everyone is working with some very scanty information and your sons' health history is not at our disposal, therefore we all naturally tend to assume the most likely causes in situations such as this one.

I, for one, would have liked to have known what your son had in his possession at the time of his disappearance to better grasp what his could and could accomplish as far as survival is concerned. I've been part of many past SAR teams and I've learned to go out with as much information as possible. This greatly increases the odds of accomplishing a successful recovery.

If there is ANYTHING that you can think of to aid the rsearch crews then my advice would be to be as forthcoming as humanly possible. For example, what was the purpose of your sons outing, if any? How well was he equipped? Did he typically venture outdoors solo or did he often go out in a group? How many days did he originally intend to be out in the wilderness. Any information such as this can help paint a picture for the SAR teams.

Please do no panic. The human body is extremely resilent to the forces of nature and many people, especially those in great physical shape, can survive for months and even years, sustaining off the land. Please remain confident and hopeful. I am praying for your son.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Jesse Capen is my son...I have much information to share...he is not 5'8"...he is 6'4"...broad shoulder and has big bones...
I am very upset with some of the responses...but most are very kind...others sound like a joke.
If anyone out there is interested...send a message.

Jesse is my only son..working on a PHD in this subject...the jerk comenting on his height and weight and a possible heart attach could not match Jesse's size and is a shallow shadow of his character.

I do not know how to do this.
Jesse is the light of my life...what do I do?

With out his body I will not have closure...

An old antique clock on my wall had stopped due my absence...I have been in the Ariaona desert looking for my son...I will not wind the clock until Jesse comes home.



Cynthia Burnett

Mrs Burnette,

The person in question is not a jerk. Prior to your post we only had the information from the original post to go by. A person 5'8" and 205 would not necessarily be in shape for hiking some of the rugged areas of the Supers. Although, his guessing at a heart attack was a bit thoughtless. Thanks for clearing up the description.

I second Beth's idea that hope is not lost. It is also possible that he climbed into a cave or old mineshaft (there are many out there) and can't get out (I am certain that the SAR Folks have also had that thought). He would not be visible from the air or ground. Without specific location information, a dog would be the main way to find him.

There are many possibilities, but since I am in California and not Arizona, I can only give advice and not feet on the ground.

I sincerely hope everything turns out alright-Mike

Good evening Mrs Burnett:  I am that jerk that you referred to. With the original information provided, short of an accident, that was the only logical answer possible.

There is absolutely nothing wrong or 'derogatory' with suggesting that, on the contrary one must go prepared to handle this if it had occurred, most can be handled with the proper treatment.  The idea was to go prepared.

You did state -->...the jerk commenting on his height and weight and a possible heart attach could not match Jesse's size and is a shallow shadow of his character.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Not very complimentary, but You are correct, I am only 5' 8" and 150 lbs.  However, I have carried that over most of the Pacific basin in explorations,. mostly alone, including living off of the Yucatan jungle for 6 months.  I do have a basic idea of survival and existence in primitive conditions. 

If Jesse has the heart and spirit to go with his body, he will come home with fantastic memories to add to his memories and paper.

Once when I went into the Barrancas of the Rio Yaqui, I only had my mule for company.   I was gone for 6 weeks. Every one assumed that either one of the few wild Indians or bandidos in there had killed me, but on the contrary, when I returned I was even fatter than when I entered,  I had become friends with some of them .

If Jess only had a minor problem like an injured leg he will turn up a bit thinner but just fine, and it will give a personal flavor to his thesis.

So relax and have faith.

I doubt that anyone in here can say that I have 'ever posted'  any form of an insult or lack of sympathy for any conditions, including some that may parallel your present one.

 I also realize that you are under a tremendous strain and will naturally lash out at any supposedly criticizing / negative post.  which in no way was it intended to be,  It was just part of the ongoing posts, no more, no less...

I will say this on closing, If I was in Ariz, Instead of 400 miles south in Mexico, I personally would be doing my part, I actually am a fair tracker by necessity and training.  I was in the US Border Patrol for a while.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s May I also thank those out there that 'know' me, for their defensive posts, I appreciated that greatly.

Folks, enough already with the defensiveness and other off topic stuff please - it's not a time for any of that at all.  Someone in Mrs. Burnett's situation get's to say and feel ANYTHING she wants and there's nothing to gain by trying to defend oneself at this point imho.

Mrs. Burnett - please, is there anything else AT ALL that might help people looking for your son?  Anything such as landmarks (even names that don't appear on maps and such) that he may have left information about?  Is there anything at all that came out of the search of his computer and/or notes that hasn't been made public that might help some of the guys from this and other forums out there looking for him?

Sincerely, Paul

Dear Ms. Burnett;
The fact that Jesse most likely has a functioning GPS on his person narrows things down to him being lost as a secondary priority. Once again, ruling out foul play, we can therefore assume that Jesse either does not wish to be located or that he has become immobile to the point that he cannot return to his starting point, with the odds being that he has suffered from an injury and cannot proceed onwards.

The fact that your son is bipolar is of no consideration at this point either, although it is good to know. From the information you've provided, I may assume that your son is extremely bright and also thinks creativity. If this is true, then he is an excellent candidate for longterm survival in a wilderness environment. I would remain ever-hopeful for your sons' safe return and place my faith in Gods' hands. As always, I am praying for his speedy return to your side.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Ms. Burnett,

I am very sorry to hear about your son being missing in the mountains. There is another website I found last night while searching for more information about him. There are people on that site that are making trips into the mountains looking for Jesse and they are planning another trip this weekend. You may want to check it out for any updates on their search. Here is alink to the site.

http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1569

Hope this helps you.

Ritchie

Good morning Cynthia: the sparring is over as far as I am concerned, neither of us have any apologizing to do, I was just clarifying my position, you don't have to. I understood.

First Cyn, you are my type of a gal, I love the unknown and outdoors. Most of my active life has been alone. What type of doggie do you have?  I have a report with animals,  hence am good friends with most in here.

As for Jesse, I would like to meet him also after this is over.  what was his Thesis about for his PhD??  Tell him to open a line in here, many probably have excellent data to pass on to him.

The most favorable factor for him, which wasn't posted when I wrote my infamous post, was that it had 'rained heavily' in the area.  This will leave many small and large depositories of water for him, for days if not weeks, if he doesn't mind a few wrigglers.   This will also lower the temps for him, another huge plus.  

As for his being Bipolar so ??  Actually I am the only one in here that is perfect just ask me.  However,  in Jesse's case, sometimes it can lead to a bit of confusion, especially after a possible flash flood experience and he can lose his sense of direction, or even the why. He could be wandering far from where the jeep was found, perfectly normal now, perhaps a bit hungry, but healthy otherwise, but not knowing exactly where he is.

The situation as orig set up was a city dweller with very little survival or desert experience, at 5'7" and weighing about 208 lbs was a very iffy setup.

 Jesse is another situation entirely, due to YOUR  bringing him up knowledgeable and experienced. You have done your part Luv, now it is up to him to do his. He has the training and experience thanks to a loving mother.

If anyone can break the odds, Jesse can.

In the mean time get ready to compare notes.

Don Jose de La Mancha

... The fact that Jesse most likely has a functioning GPS on his person narrows things down to him being lost as a secondary priority. Once again, ruling out foul play, we can therefore assume that Jesse either does not wish to be located or that he has become immobile to the point that he cannot return to his starting point, with the odds being that he has suffered from an injury and cannot proceed onwards...

You might be surprised to consider how often people with gps's (and other battery-powered devices too, such as cell-phones) find themselves with dead batteries and no spares.  Speculating that the subject is injured has no better odds than any other option to the SAR team - he could very well be simply lost.

 

Here is the latest info regarding the search for Jesse copied from Jim Hatt and DesertUSA.com


Tortilla Search
Friday, January 1, 2010 5:52 PM
From:
"David Bremson" <dbremson@cox.net>

Mr. Hatt,

As we discussed, Maricopa and Pinal County Sheriff's Offices will have search and rescue personnel in the area you mentioned in your forum. We ask your forum members to please stay out of the area during the active search. Mr. Capen has been missing for several weeks, and any potential clues in the area are very fragile. If untrained searchers are in the area, they may accidently destroy any remaining evidence and decrease the possibility of locating the gentleman.

We understand that you are concerned with his well-being, however, we are also concerned, in addition to the safety of non-trained people operating in the area.

Thank you for your assistance and understanding.

Regards,

David

www.mountainrescue.org
www.mra.org

Jim has already gone there. (in the area HE thinks should be looked at) - and, so have others.

A vehicle (I am assuming this little car with Colorado plates is Mrs. Burnett's vehicle) was parked in the area.  A helicopter searching. He found no one else.

This is confusing.  Especially since he is going back.

B

Joe your comments are hardly helpful. Search and Rescue teams are excellent and from what interaction I have had, highly professional and with a superb record of finding lost persons.  The fact that NON-professionals wish to help or offer assistance is no bad reflection on the SAR teams.  It is a desire to help one of our fellows.

If I could figure a way, I would be happy to come there and help in any way I could.  I am sure that Beth would as well.  We do understand the professionals' desire to keep amateurs out of the search area for obvious reasons, but if and when they can not continue the search or are willing to accept volunteer assistance, it should not be denigrated.
Roy

Joe not one of the persons you named has made claims of "knowing what is best" and no one doubts the expertise of the Search and Rescue teams of which you are a part, nor of the Sheriff's dept.  I don't get the reasons for the sarcasm.  We all want to see Jesse found and rejoin his family, regardless of whom finds him or if he manages to hike out on his own.  There is NO reason for you to remove yourself from this discussion, in fact since it seems that the Oroblancos are causing you irritation we will not post anything further unless directly spoken to.
Roy

I NOTICED NO ONE HAS POSTED A SATELITE PIC OF THE AREA? SO IM POSTING THIS TO HELP GAIN PERSPECTIVE OF THE SITUATION.

Did they leave his Tent up With possable Fresh Water
& Eats & Possably Guards ?

Just in case he Came back ?

Would hate to think He come back to
no sign of his Gear 

Did they leave his Tent up With possable Fresh Water
& Eats & Possably Guards ?

Just in case he Came back ?

Would hate to think He come back to
no sign of his Gear 

Word is they have removed everything.
As there have been private searchers in there and no sign of the camp or the jeep

Mrs.Oblanco, sorry for the late reply, I have been working a job again, and the hours have taken me to very tiredville. I have not watched the J.Ventura show. I have worked for the dept.of Agriculture, and was in the Air Force with a TS clearance, and I have talked directly to others who have worked at basses like area 51 and its counterpart in Utah. Its my belief our Govt,has many more from Space sources to Earth then is widely known, like some very real Invisible Cloaking devices..Not to throw this thread off course, my prayers are with the missing mans family for a positive recovery.

Did they leave his Tent up With possable Fresh Water
& Eats & Possably Guards ?

Just in case he Came back ?

Would hate to think He come back to
no sign of his Gear 

Word is they have removed everything.
As there have been private searchers in there and no sign of the camp or the jeep

That in My opinion is the wrong Move.

Jef, I completely agree with you.  Many times I have drug my completely exhausted, dehydrated, well used up body back to my camp for water, food and a place to rest.  I would be in the concentrating on the   'one more step at a time'    for survival, looking forward to that drink.  I would be be morally/ physically destroyed, if after this I found no camp where I had left it.

So it is vitally important to leave food and water at least at the last known campsight with brilliant color flags marking it, ones that can be seen from far away by a very tired person that isn't thinking clearly.

I know that Oro & Beth, among any others in here, know exactly what I am trying to say.

In the case of Jesse, I feel that he will be in better shape than most, due to having been well trained as a kiddie by Cynthia.

Don Jose de La Mancha

General:  Cactus, since I have gone this route, this is how I intend to handle this in the future for my operations..

Since they are already flying around the area, expending a large amount of $$, I can't see why they don't drop well marked plastic canteens full of water, a map for the area with the location of the canteen premarked, and a bit of emergency non water requiring rations on the main exit / travel  ways of the specific area.

This would actually only require a handfull of these survival packages since most will be traveling the lowlands following the canyons, of if in the heights, would easily see the brightly marked emergency packages and could descend for them.

The packages could be marked with plastic surveyors ribbon of several feet long with as many different colors as can be found, at least three for max visibility.  Later the volunteers can recover them for the next time.

The lost person should be instructed in the map to stay at the site with the ribbons arranged in the usual rescue signal shapes, if they feel that they can't walk out..   The others should take some of the ribbons with them, while using the remainder to form an arrow indicating direction of travel.  This notifies the aerial searcher that package has been found, used, and the finder is walking out under their own power. They can be monitored.

Incidentally, for the superstitions normally, if they use qualified 'trackers', a party of (3) three would be all that should on the initial search.  If for any reason more people are needed, they can easily call for help. I am sure that the BLM doctrines have clauses can be utilized to allow a helicopter to actually land people as near to the site as practical.

Where do the Indian chiefs meet?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Afternoon Joe: you posted -->The search is in a Wilderness Area, which precludes any landing by a chopper.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I believe that all such laws have a clause in which life and death situations are excluded. 

Ex.  some one trapped and injured in a mine shaft, or in a crashed aircraft.. 

Also with out a doubt, dropping the suggested packages in that area would also come under the prohibited acts, without prior permission.

Don Jose de La Mancha

What would Nike say ?

Don Jose,

It's possible to get permission to land a helicopter in a Wilderness Area, but it ain't easy.

Take care,

Joe

It's better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission ...........
 Jim

Don Jose,

It's possible to get permission to land a helicopter in a Wilderness Area, but it ain't easy.

Take care,

Joe

It's better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission ...........
 Jim

Dear truckinbutch;
Perhaps not, when it's YOUR commercial rotary wing license which is on the line, my friend...
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar mi friend"   The Pilot in commnd has the ultimate decision on the operation of the aircraft.  Hmm, I wonder why that miss cleared up as soon as I landed with those men?  Of course I had to be absoloutely sure so I had to spend 4 hrs checking.  By coincidence they returned as I was going through my prefilght check.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Thanks for thinking of me Oro. I was notified

Cynthia,
Can you please e-mail me? My name is Randy. My e-mail address is djui5 at yahoo . com
Thanks.

Joe,
Thanks but I typed it like that so I wouldn't get a bunch of spam e-mails They crawl internet forums looking for e-mail addresses. I get enough spam already.

  mi  buddy  djuicy?

Don Jose de La Mancha

[someone's]

Roy,

I stand corrected.  I am sure that you, Beth and Jim Hatt (Ritchie) know what is best.  We can only hope that someone's efforts will be successful in finding Jesse.  I will step out of this conversation and leave it to the experts.

Take care,

Joe

Hello everyone at Treasurenet. Please pardon this off topic post.

I have joined this website to notify you all that I am not "Ritchie" as has been suggested by your member using the name "Cactusjumper". Nor am I any of the members that he has accused of being me on this or other Internet Websites in the past.

I am doing this because of a number of emails that have been forwarded to me recently, which show a clear and vindictive attempt by the user "Cactusjumper" to publicly slander my name. I will not interrupt your discussion any further, other than to request that anyone who may have received any kind of private correspondence from "Cactusjumper" AKA Joe Ribaudo, which further shows his attempt to slander my name, please forward them to me at arizona_drifter@yahoo.com.

Please be informed in advance that anything forwarded to me, may be added to existing information and used in a formal Internet harassment complaint, and other possible legal actions against this individual.

Again I apologize for this interruption in your discussion, but this person has pushed me beyond my limits of tolerance, and has been attempting to do just that for a number of years now. Most people will just fade away if you do not acknowledge them, but some people have an unlimited capacity for being obnoxious, vindictive and hateful.

If you do forward anything to me, please do not expect an immediate response as I expect to be spending a lot of time out in the mountains searching for Jesse Capen until he is found. I will however... eventually reply to each and every email forwarded to me.

Thank You for your cooperation,

Jim Hatt

Jim,

As long as you don't bring Jan back from the grave to testify, I will be ok with whatever you decide.

Joe Ribaudo

"I expect to be spending a lot of time out in the mountains searching for Jesse Capen" Thank you Mr. Jim Hatt All Prayers For Jesse

mi  buddy  djuicy?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Always

Nice to see you here Jim 

I spent some time in the mountains this previous weekend with some friends looking for clues as to the missing mans whereabouts.

Some personal observations on the search.

1) Based on what we found , tracks , etc he was headed NW from the Kane Spring area to the area he seemed to be interested in.

2) The storm that hit the area Dec 21/22 was one of mammoth proportions. Huge cottonwoods and junipers were upended. A large cottonwood fell not 10 yards from his camp site (yes we checked under it) and various trees fell across the Peters Trail between Indian Springs Canyon and Peters Saddle. It is telling about the action of the early search groups that they made there way to Jesses camp by foot (trees were moved out of the way off the trail) but they did not search further westward on the trail as huge trees were down on the hill west of there and we are fairly certain that we were the first people through there.

3) Based on observation of the Maricopa Sherriff SAR the search was concentrated on one particular canyon. The helicopter spent quite a bit of time searching the various peaks and ridgeline on both sides of this canyon.

4) We observed what we took to be the hikers family members at the bottom of this canyon (I beleive there were 3-4 of them all wearing yellow shirts) obviously milling around and checking out an area of some water tanks very thoroughly. It is obvious that both the family members and the SAR were concentrating on this particular area in their search.

My thoughts are that he likely went missing sometime before the big Winter Solstice storm. He could have been injured  or lost  almost as soon as he arrived, making it 2 weeks before SAR even knew that he was missing. There was no water in the mountains until a smaller storm blew in before the Solstice  tempest, which would have meant that he would have to lug water with him. If he did not go missing until the mid-December time frame then he might have found water sources throughout that area. If he went missing in the area where SAR spent a good deal of time going in and out of the tributary canyons then I fear he may never be found. That area is horribly rough and remote, and not many folks go there. Good place to take a fall.

I will update this site if I get any news.
Best

Ranger

One more observation:

Helicopters certainly did touch down and let off searchers, at least in the early part of the search. These fellows had dogs with them and their tracks followed the older tracks that we believed were the hikers towards the area where his possible family members and Maricopa Cty SAR were observed. From what Jesse had marked on his personal maps as interesting areas, this was the area that was searched the most. While he could be anywhere, it makes sense to concentrate on A) his probable line of march and B) the areas he was interested in searching for "treasure".

Regards

Ranger

Ranger,

There is really no telling where Jessie went, but this is the first area I would want to search......short of tracks or evidence that he is elsewhere:
Joe Ribaudo

Joe,
Can you please remove this map. It has incorrect info and I don't want anyone going out there thinking they know where things are when they are being improperly directed. Thanks.

Or if you could remove his camp site from the map, that would work too.

So, why didn't you just say his camp was in the wrong place.  Where should it be?  This is like pulling teeth.......

It is what it is Joe. I shoulda just said that in the first place, you are right. I'm not at liberty to state exactly where his camp was though. This is some seriously nasty terrain and I'd rather the info on where his camp was not be made public. We have one guy missing already, we don't need more because people who don't know the area want to help out. I hope I'm not coming off like a prick but that is the way it has to be. I'm sure you understand. I don't know if you've ever hiked this side of the mountains but believe me when I say West Boulder is nothing compared to this area.

I'm just looking out for the best interests of everyone involved, that is all.

I know I'm a has been, no need to rub it in.  You da man!

Take care,

Joe

 

Don't take everything so damn personal Joe. This isn't a pissing contest. I'm the new guy, you know that dammit.

His camp wasn't AT Kane Spring.

Yah, I had heard his camp wasn't at Kane Springs either and that the SAR groups were not giving out that specific information for their own reasons.

Yah, I had heard his camp wasn't at Kane Springs either and that the SAR groups were not giving out that specific information for their own reasons.

The SAR teams deal with reality as they encounter it in the field.  It is quite common for the subject's actual location, travel route, etc. to differ considerably from what family and friends assumed or were told.  Information concerning the status of any particular search is released to the public only when necessary.  The subject's family will be in the loop as much as possible.

Yah, I had heard his camp wasn't at Kane Springs either and that the SAR groups were not giving out that specific information for their own reasons.

The SAR teams deal with reality as they encounter it in the field.  It is quite common for the subject's actual location, travel route, etc. to differ considerably from what family and friends assumed or were told.  Information concerning the status of any particular search is released to the public only when necessary.  The subject's family will be in the loop as much as possible.

yup Springfield - that's exactly my understanding of any kind of search and/or rescue operation.  It's pretty much a "need to know" situation and the vast majority of us here don't really "need to know" unless we've been in touch with the SAR as I think a very few folks from different forums have been.

Those people who've been in direct contact have obviously been asked to keep specific information private which I believe they've done and are continuing to do - it's really not anyone's place at this point to ask why despite well intended desires to help find Jesse.

Those are just my opinions.

Dear group;
Keeping information *priviledged* or *confidental* when a persons' life is at stake is akin to playing God in the extreme sense of the word, in my very humble opinion. I know if it were ME who were lost out in the boonies then I'd want EVERYBODY in the entire WORLD to know EVERYTHING there possibly is to know about me in order to help someone, ANYONE, find ME!

Certainly, I understand that there are SAR teams who consider themselves to be professionals, and yet while these well-intentioned sorts are running around playing 007 and Daniel Boone, Jesse's meter IS running.

I also find it strange that these same well-intentioned people seem to be attempting to track the lost persons' movements. Considering the time which has elapsed and the fact there have been no good leads turned up as yet and coupled with the recent storm activity, I would say that the odds of actually being able to track someone's movements are pretty close to nil at this point and I would instead concentrate on my efforts on trying to locate the person and in order to do this, every pair of eyes that I could put onto the scene improves our chances of finding the person.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Lamar my friend I agree. Pull out every stop, explore every option. No reason anyone should disappear in this ultra modern high tech age in those ancient Mts,without being found. Check with every Claim holder and get the state to bring in "military trained" search and rescue teams.

Dear ghostdog;
I guess that I am just confused, my friend. First, who determined that the SAR teams were *professionals* in the first place? What gives them the sole right to determine the information which should be witheld from the public? In other words, I would be doing the Internet version of posting Jesse's information and vital stats on the sides of the virtual *milk cartons* as it were, just like used to be done in the cases of missing children.
Your friend;
LAMAR

My apologies for posting, just wanted to add a statement which may help explain something.

Lamar wrote

First, who determined that the SAR teams were *professionals* in the first place?

I cannot speak for the SAR teams involved in this search, but some SAR teams are specially trained in search and rescue operations, including classes in tracking, spotting, communications, first aid, map reading and navigation, even mountaineering, rock climbing etc which puts them in a different 'class' than most folks.  I can't say why information may be withheld, but expect that all info will be made public at some point.  The obvious reason is in order to keep well-intentioned volunteers <not coordinated with the authorities official search efforts> from inadvertently trampling on tracks made by the person being sought, accidental moving of something which may have been an important clue (like picking up a piece of litter) or possible errors from simply spotting each other from a distance and thinking it to be the missing person. There is also the danger of an un-trained or inexperienced person becoming lost themselves, and compounding the problems.

As for making use of all available technologies, how would we know they are not already? 

Again, sorry for "butting in" here, my friends please know that we are all frustrated with our inability to find this man and reunite the family.
Oroblanco

http://www.mountainrescue.org

http://www.mra.org

These two are involved in the search, so far.

Specially trained military search teams will have the newest technologys available  to them includeing those from Space. Why not bring them in.

No reason anyone should disappear in this ultra modern high tech age in those ancient Mts,without being found.

Technology can only do so much. The only way this guy is going to be found is if someone finds him while on the ground. The low level chopper searches have been done. Sat photos are worthless. The terrain is way too rough for a sat photo to find someone out there. Heat signature (Infared) might work but again, you'd have to have a clean line of sight on the person which means you'd have to almost know where he is.

Speaking of high tech, just because we have technology does NOT mean you can't get lost either. If you are in a strange area where you do not know the landmarks then you could get lost quite easily. Imagine you go to another state to hunt treasure. You think smart and bring all your neat electronics/gadgets with you. A metal detector, a camera, a cell phone, a GPS, maybe even a laptop. Now imagine you are sitting in camp, or hiking back to your camp from a days search and it starts pouring rain like you've never seen. Or on the way back to camp you break an ankle, sprain an ankle, pop a knee out of place, etc. Ok, sure, now you are stuck.

In the rain you made a mad dash for your camp. On the way to camp you take a wrong turn somewhere. It's dark, the sun is beginning to set and the rain/clouds make it impossible to see. After about half an hour it dawns on you that you're lost. Your GPS does no good because of the rain, so you get no sat reception. You might have a compass but what good is that if you don't know which direction you need to go in? It's really cold outside and you start to shivver, so you find a nice cave/undercut to camp for the night hoping the next morning you can find your way. Thankfully you've remembered your magnesium fire starter and can find enough brush/small tree limbs to get a fire started. You rest the night there and wake up the next day hungry and still wet. Crawling out of your sleeping spot you turn on your GPS. Ahh...either the batteries are dead or it won't turn on because of water damage. No cell phone because the batteries are dead. The laptop is in your camp, which you have no idea where camp is. Ok, what do you do now?? I'd be willing to bet 90% of this countries population has no answer for that question, no proper answer anyway.

This same scenario could play out if you had to crawl off the trail because of an injury. Make sense?

Makes sense ,yes,however the military has had technologys for years now that can read license plates on cars, and they do have long range tech scanners that can tell the differance between  a human or animal.
Foul play is also a unpleasant possibility , but it would not be the 1st time in the Supers. The Park Service should make it mandatory for anyone going into these mt ranges to carry a location signal device.

Dear group;
Keeping information *priviledged* or *confidental* when a persons' life is at stake is akin to playing God in the extreme sense of the word, in my very humble opinion. I know if it were ME who were lost out in the boonies then I'd want EVERYBODY in the entire WORLD to know EVERYTHING there possibly is to know about me in order to help someone, ANYONE, find ME!

Certainly, I understand that there are SAR teams who consider themselves to be professionals, and yet while these well-intentioned sorts are running around playing 007 and Daniel Boone, Jesse's meter IS running.

I also find it strange that these same well-intentioned people seem to be attempting to track the lost persons' movements. Considering the time which has elapsed and the fact there have been no good leads turned up as yet and coupled with the recent storm activity, I would say that the odds of actually being able to track someone's movements are pretty close to nil at this point and I would instead concentrate on my efforts on trying to locate the person and in order to do this, every pair of eyes that I could put onto the scene improves our chances of finding the person.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

You obviously are uninformed concerning what search and rescue is and how it operates.  The reason the SAR incident commander does not want an army of well-intentioned yahoos pouring into the hills under his watch is that the odds are, if said yahoos are inexperienced, untrained and/or under equipped, that one or more of them will become lost or injured himself and then take the focus off finding the subject and place it on hauling his well-intended but sorry ass back to safety.  You may denegrate the abilities of the SAR team if you wish, but in your case it's out of ignorance - so you're forgiven.

You are correct on one point - the fact that the search began way late, especially after a weather event, makes it unlikely that physical clues can be located.  Unlikely, but not impossible.  The key word is 'search'.  Search as much ground as possible.  Air searching with helicopters and/or fixed wing craft have been used on this mission as I understand it, but the chances of sighting the subject from the air are neglible unless the subject is cooperating on the ground (fires, signals, waving, etc.).  High tech airborne devices can help, but the odds are not as high as you might imagine.

The SAR incident commander is using the resouces available to him.  He doesn't have the time for distractions unless there is usable information coming from the public, which is unlikely.  If you are concerned about the competence of the team (all volunteers), maybe you can donate money to them so that they can continue to upgrade their equipment and fund additional training for their members.  It wouldn't hurt to seek additional support from the State of Arizona along those lines either. 

good morning my friends:  Djucy and springfield are right on the ball with their posts.  I, for one, always have more information on the area where I intend to go than most of the locals.  With today's world sat coverage, and plentiful free topo maps, there is no reason to become lost.  Disoriented 'yes', but lost? no.  

Five minutes study on any region in the world, the US especially, should be enough to orient yourself, and the basic sun rises in the East and sets in the west should get you to civilization.  Perhaps not in the most expedient way, but it will get you there.

I doubt that there are very many areas in the US any more, that three or four days of basic line travel wouldn't get you to a ranch, town, or a road. I myself have gone without water while hefting a 65# back pack for three days in southern Mexico.  It wasn't particularly enjoyable, but I probably could have gone for a few more days.

As for the teams not wanting anyone tramping around, they rely upon signs which can quickly become confusing, if fresh ones are being left hourly.  They cannot know which set to follow and might spend critical hours following  the ant tracks of a well meaning intruder.

In the old days a good tracker could easily identify the person / animal they were after by many small and intimate  factors, such as how they might favor one leg over the other, a slight cast of one foot, the weight that the  person was carrying, length of stride, size and shape, myriads of small things that the modern tracker no longer learns.

 As for sophisticated satellite coverage, helicopters, dogs, military, etc,   etc., forget it.  These teams have a very hard time just maintaining themselves, and this on basically a volunteer basis.  Most supply their own transportation, and equipment.  They would love this new stuff, but until the next person needs their service, they are quickly forgotten by the state or local controller.  If you wish to do your part, SUPPORT them, and provide a fund for using these advanced techniques, services, and equipment.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Dear group;
Keeping information *priviledged* or *confidental* when a persons' life is at stake is akin to playing God in the extreme sense of the word, in my very humble opinion. I know if it were ME who were lost out in the boonies then I'd want EVERYBODY in the entire WORLD to know EVERYTHING there possibly is to know about me in order to help someone, ANYONE, find ME!

Certainly, I understand that there are SAR teams who consider themselves to be professionals, and yet while these well-intentioned sorts are running around playing 007 and Daniel Boone, Jesse's meter IS running.

I also find it strange that these same well-intentioned people seem to be attempting to track the lost persons' movements. Considering the time which has elapsed and the fact there have been no good leads turned up as yet and coupled with the recent storm activity, I would say that the odds of actually being able to track someone's movements are pretty close to nil at this point and I would instead concentrate on my efforts on trying to locate the person and in order to do this, every pair of eyes that I could put onto the scene improves our chances of finding the person.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Lamar, for someone who is obviously as educated as yourself, your comments on this subject are ill-informed at best and --deleted--/thoughtless at worst.

Analogies that immediately comes to mind is that of the dissapearance/kidnapping of a young child or the investigation of a crime scene.  According to your logic, the most useful way to solve either case is for anyone/everyone with any desire to help to get out there and beat the brush - while that's certain to solve an issue at least now and then, I have a strong suspicion that an organized and trained force of people (police, detectives, etc...) would have MUCH higher odds of solving the case than a well intentioned public who think they may know best.  Of course that's due to the fact that I don't consider those groups to be "007 or Daniel Boone" types as you apparently do.

In the best case scenario, all of the groups find a way to work together and share information, and from what I've heard the last couple weeks that's exactly what's been happening.  Just because that information isn't being shared on the internet for everyone to add their $0.02 doesn't mean it isn't occurring.

Paul,

You are correct.

Springfield,

There are only a, very, people posting here who have any idea what they are talking about.  You are one who does.  People who believe, because the SAR asked them for advise on the local terrain and likely path of a (treasure hunting) victim, that they suddenly are experts on SAR tactics, are deluded.

At this point, I would delete this entire topic if able.  Too much ignorance is being spouted.
Thanks for trying to keep if real.

Take care,

Joe