MAP TO LDM FOR SALE!

Take a look at this. Is it for real? http://cgi.ebay.com/Map-of-the-Lost...d=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A3|39%3A1|240%3A1318

If it was "the" map, wouldn't it be at a well known auction house instead of ebay?

hey gang

Blacksheep wrote "If it was "the" map, wouldn't it be at a well known auction house instead of ebay? "
 I would think so.... unless they're ijits 

PLL

If it was the real map, I'd be picking up ore, not selling the map!

B

It must not be a good map since Henry Hornish searched 23 years for the mine and never found it.

I can get you a copy of that map for free

Yes,

I know two people who have hi-res copies of it. It is better known as the "Profile Map". Randy knows one of those people quite well.

Best-Mike

Here is one version of it

Hey Randy!

I got that map and a whole bunch more.



Dennis

Good for you 

HI Dijuicy:  If you really want that map, I will start the ball rolling with .50 cents, no strings attached.

Don Jose de La Mancha

The original? I got $1 

["N"]

The Map ? shows "N" in the WRONG place !     
Their "N" shown at the TOP of the map,  should actually, be "E" !   
If you have been in the LDM Area ,
You'll understand what I am Saying!
ANYONE ?

good morning Bugs:   Will you be  Ariz. in Jan?

Don Jose de La   T A Y O P A   Mancha

["N"]

The Map ? shows "N" in the WRONG place !     
Their "N" shown at the TOP of the map,  should actually, be "E" !   
If you have been in the LDM Area ,
You'll understand what I am Saying!
ANYONE ?

That map I posted a picture of isn't an exact copy of the original The original doesn't have anything at the top where the N is.

I see where that map is still up for sale on eBay.  Hopefully he'll drop the price some and make it more attractive - hey, at least he's offering free shipping   

The sun rises in the north 


Actually reminds me of "Curley's Gold" (Billy Crystal). 

Now, the sun rises in the west
No, the sun rises in the east
That's if you live in the east, now we are in the west
So, we're past where the sun sets?

If you think you can be past where the sun sets, then I am standing directly south of,       an idiot!


 


B

The sun rises in the north 


Actually reminds me of "Curley's Gold" (Billy Crystal). 

Now, the sun rises in the west
No, the sun rises in the east
That's if you live in the east, now we are in the west
So, we're past where the sun sets?

If you think you can be past where the sun sets, then I am standing directly south of,       an idot!


 


B

LOL

["Si!"]

Real de Tayopa
I sure wish that I could say, "Si!"      
But!
Alas ..... "No!"       
It's going to be around 1st of April Before I can make it     
But!
Once we're out ( Doc & I)  we'll be out for atleast 12+ Months
But!
We're going to be starting in New Mexico, First!
Then, we'll, be working our way west
Got! lots & lots ! of sites to check out along the way     

It's going to be around 1st of April Before I can make it     

Nice timing.

Here is a link to "62" maps
Take your pick.

http://www.ajpl.org/aj//museum/treasm.htm

Minstrel

Dear group;
On the profile map, there is a site labelled as "CAVE CON CASA". Shouldn't it read "CUEVA CON CASA" if it were an authentic Spanish or Mexican map?
Your friend;
LAMAR

Its labelled 'Caverna con casa'  which means cavern, or cave with house, literally.  Doesn't make the map authentic, though.  One thing people overlook is they seem to give way more credit to the spelling ability of some Hispanic speakers.  Many times words would be spelled phonetically, thus 'caberna'.  Particularly more so if it was an English speaker who was listening to Spanish.  That's why I find the 'coazon' word interesting in the Peralta stones.  'Corazo'n.'  R's are pronounced more like the d's in 'ladder', with the tongue at the top front of the mouth.  So if you weren't real familiar with Spanish, and it was being spoken fast, you would maybe hear 'codazon' or believe it to be 'coazon'.  Hispanics who speak Castillano many times have a more clear and classical pronunciaton.  And I only get about every fourth word in Portuguese.

 

That's what I call the "rolling r trick".  With Peralta Stones, though, fairly educated people were supposed to have carved that.  Considering that it would take a hand carver awhile to carve all that, you'd think, if they were spanish-speaking, they would know that its not a "d" (which they didn't put either).  Leans towards the idea that someone who didn't have a clue wrote it.

B

Beth,

You might want to consider an Anglo who had been, informally, taught Spanish in Mexico.......Like Ted DeGrazia.  The experts who examined the Stone Maps, came to the same conclusion......Minus the Ted DeGrazia theory.

Take care,

Joe

Dear RGINN;
Yes, my friend, after you wrote that I went back at looked at it very carefully and it does read as CAVERNA. I am sorry that I misread it. And yes, the difference in pronounciation between the V and the B in Spanish is minute, in fact about 99.999% of all latinos cannot make a noticeable difference in pronounciation because they were not taught to turn the corners of the mouth downwards into a frown when pronouncing the V and letting the mouth relax for words where the B is pronounced. This is why many lesser educated Latinos tend to use the V and B incorrectly in grammar.

Also, the R is only rolled when it's the first letter of a word or name and also if the R follows the constants L, N, or S , such as Puerto Rico, alredador, Enrique and Israel. In all other positions the single constant R is pronounced with a hard single click or tap. The word CORAZON in Castillian Spanish is pronounced as Core Ahhhh Thon, with the accent stress on the first syllable , almost as if singing the word. The latinos pronounce it differently, but I am not quite sure how they do it so I can't explain it.

Also, the word CAVERNA is relatively new in Spanish and as such I think that the word CAVIDAD would probably have been used in older structures. Also, the word ESCARDADIA confounds me. I know of no such word found in the Spanish language, so unless it's a regional word, it does not exist. The two closest words which comes to mind are ESCARDAR, which means to clear a garden or field of grass and/or weeds, and the word ESCARPA, which is a steep bank or bluff, or even a cliff. Of course the common word for cliff would be RISCO or PERCIPICO.

Also, the word PERFIL seems suspicious to me as well. True, the word PERFIL means profile in English, but if one were describing the profile of a mountain or a mountain chain, then the more proper descriptive word would be CONTORNO. Perfil is mostly utilized in describing a profile in general, whereas the word Contorno is used more when describing the profile of an antimate or inatimate object.

Also, Portugues is simple my friend. We say that Portuguese is just a bad form of Spanish.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[day or time]

Dear Lamar,

I would suggest that the word, escardadia, means the day or time for weeding or preparing a field for planting, or the time for planting.  In essence, it refers to a time of the year......Spring?  To make sense, escarda and dia should have been seperated. 

It would be interesting to see if someone can make that connection or come up with something better.
Just a blind guess, which will be obvious to someone like you.

Take care,

Joe

Dear cactusjumper;
That would make sense, except that it does not make any sense my friend. DIA means DAY whereas a set or certain time of the year would be an EPOCA, a SAZON, ESTACION or a TEMPORADA.

Also, ESCARDAR is not a very popular word therefore it's unlikely to have been used to describe clearing out a field. To describe this, a popular word would be ENTRESACAR.

Since DIA is not a form of a Spanish suffix, it would most likely not have been used in conjunction with a prefix word.To say ESCARDA DIA as two separate words, it would mean "WEEDING DAY" or "CLEARING DAY" with the day in question meaning today. Also, you would not say "EscardaR dia" Because the word ESCARDAR means "TO weed". Used in conjunction with a following word, it would be "Escardo dia" since DIA is masculine, then the verb ESCARDAR would also assume a masculine form.

If it were ESCARDA NOCHE, then with NOCHE being feminine, the precceding verb would also be feminine.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Lamar,

What you say makes perfect sense.........for a native speaker of the Spanish language.  If we look at it from the perspective of someone not having Spanish as there "first" language, and not being formally taught to speak and write it, the parameters are expanded somewhat.

Your own, obviously, formal training in the Spanish language, as well as other languages, might put you at a slight disadvantage in seeing the possibilities of such a simple theory.

I suppose the question might be:  Is it possible?

Take care,

Joe

Dear cactusjumper;
Your assessment of the situation is 100% correct my friend, except you left out the obvious conclusion. If someone who was not a native Spanish speaker drew the map, why would that person attempt to label all of the map's key features and landmarks in Spanish instead of English, my friend? The only reason that I can possibly think of that makes logical sense is that the person who drew the map did so in order to perpetuate a deception or fraud.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[BINGO!]

Dear Lamar,

BINGO!

Take care,

Joe

Hi Group,

Try solving this puzzle as if it were an anagram by using all the letters contained on the map. Good Luck!

EB

Ladies & Gentlemen: I believe that too much attention is being placed in literal interpreting using formal Spanish, ignoring any local colloquial or bilateral meanings.

I have to correct my maid's kiddies homework, and you would be shocked how far the teachers are off on formal Spanish.

My father in law's favorite expressions were "Ya me fui", "Garaste la hondo", "a la mejor".

As for people speaking and writing, using correct language, just look at some of the posts in here.  sigh  I am not belittling them as swr does, just pointing this factor out.

They were no different then, if not considerably worse. Schools were scarce and for the Royalty and elite.  It  was considered advantageous to keep the peons illiterate.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Jose,

Ah Ha!!  You said what I was trying to convey (in this post, and the other one) - but, much better than I.

But, I do tend to agree with one thing - its point was to defraud.

CJ,

I have, indeed considered DeGrazia - but, I just keep circling back around to Storm.

B

HI BETH LUV:  You posted -->

I have, indeed considered DeGrazia - but, I just keep circling back around to xxxxxx   Reavis.

Don Jose de La Mancha

[you would pluck out the heart of my mystery]

Beth,

Hmmm.....Barry Storm.  I can see where he would do something like that.  My guess is still Chuck Aylor as the person who knew the terrain like the back of his hand.  His favorite passage from Shakespeare is just too much of a coincidence.

"Why, look you now, how unworthy a thing you make of me. You would play upon me; you would seem to know my stops; you would pluck out the heart of my mystery; you would sound me from my lowest note to the top of my compass; and there is much music, excellent voice, in this little organ, yet cannot you make it speak. '..Do you think I am easier to be played on than a pipe? Call me what instrument you will, though you can fret me, you cannot play upon me. "
Hamlet. Scene II ~ W.Shakespeare

When you consider the years the Aylor's lived in those mountains, a number of them on the Stone Map Trail, it might make you wonder.........

Take care,

Joe

Jose,

What, in particular, brings you back to Reavis?  I understand the "Pedro" connection in regards to Reavis land grab, but then, why wouldn't he have used them?

B

HELLO ALL IM A NEWBIE ON THIS STUFF BUT I FIND IT QUITE FASCINATING!    I HAVE GROWN UP WITH MANY PERALTAS, HERE IN PERALTA NEW MEXICO . I HAVE ASKED  MY GOOD FRIEND GILBERT PERALTA, WHAT PERALTA MEANS, AND HE SAYS IT MEANS MALE HORSE OR STUD. OR FOR MANY JUST HORSE SO PERALTA MAPS COULD TRANSLATE TO HORSE MAPS. MUCH SLANG IS AND HAS BEEN PRESENT IN CURRENT NEW MEXICAN LINGO AND MISS PRONUNCIATION, A GENERAL RULE TO FOLLOW IS "A" IS FEMININE AND "O" IS MASCULINE EL CABALLO (MALE? POSSIBLE FEMALE? UNKNOWN HORSE ?) EL COBALLO DEFINATELY MALE "EL COBALLO" MALE HORSE STUD BEAU PERALTA UN CASTERATED "MALE LOOKING HORSE" WILD OR AGGRESSIVE. ("EL COAZON EL COBALLO") THE HEART OF THE MALE HORSE. IF YOU WERE TO SHOOT AN ANIMAL YOU WOULD SHOOT BEHIND THE LEFT FRONT LEG DIRECTLY INTO THE ANIMALS HEART. WHEN YOU LOCATE THE HORSE LOCATE THE HORSES HEART THE TREASURE IS INSIDE THE HORSES HEART... LOOK FOR AN M THAT LOOKS LIKE A 3 FOR M FOR MIGUEL A HORSE FOR PERALTA THE HORSE IS THE SIGNATURE FOR PERALTA... WHO SAYS GOLD MINERS DONT LEAVE NAMES?

Buenas tardes mi amigo nuevo de Santa Fe.  Very interesting speculation. Keep posting.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Good afternoon my new friend from Santa Fe.

Welcome Mr. Sante Fe,

I believe Peralta means "high rock".  Can you tell us your source for it meaning "horse"?

Thank you,

Joe Ribaudo

HI JOE, my future coffee drinking buddy:  You posted -->

' believe Peralta means "high rock".  Can you tell us your source for it meaning "horse"?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He replied ->

'I HAVE ASKED  MY GOOD FRIEND GILBERT PERALTA, WHAT PERALTA MEANS, AND HE SAYS IT MEANS MALE HORSE OR STUD'
***********

So we could be ' relatively' safe by presuming that it may have been an informal Id,  crest, shield,  or  mark associated with the Peraltas, and utilized by Reavis for his land play, nothing more.

Don Jose de La  Mancha

Don Jose,

Duhhhhhh......

Well why didn't he just say so?

Take care,

Joe

                                             





                                                                     

 

 

Don Jose  de La Mancha

Dear group;
Actually, the origins of the surmane PERALTA began in Catalunya and it is a contraction consisting of two words, PETRA and ALTA.  Contrary to popular belief, the word Petra is not Latin, rather it's classical Greek and it means ROCK and as a point of fact, there is an ancient settlement in Jordan named PETRA and it is one of the Seven Wonders of the World. It is believed to have been so named because it was carved from the solid rock face of a cliff.

The world ALTA is a Catalan derrivative of the Latin word ALTUS and it means HIGH or DEEP. Therefore, the name PERALTA can mean either HIGH ROCK (as in a tall cliff) or DEEP ROCK, however it most likely means TALL CLIFF or HIGH CLIFF.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Lamar,

Beilieve I said that, 'cept I used a lot less words.....

Take care,

Joe

ESCARDA DIA MY GOOD FRIEND GILBERT TOLD ME A FACINATING STORY, ABOUT AN OLD SPANISH ONLY SPEAKING  WOMAN WHOSE LAST NAME WAS PERALTA SHE CONTACTED GILBERT TO CLEAN UP THE WEEDS IN HER YARD, SHE USED THESE WORDS ECARDADIA, SO GILBERT ASUMED SHE WANTED THE WEEDS CLEANED FROM HER YARD, SHE TOLD GILBERT ON THE PHONE SHE WOULD PAY 500 DOLLARS SO GILBERT WENT RIGHT AWAY, WHEN GILBERT ARRIVED AT THE LOCATION, THERE WERE NO WEEDS IN SITE, BUT RATHER MANY RATTLE SNAKES, IT OCCURED TO GILBERT SHE WANTED HIM TO GET RID OF THE SNAKES FROM HER YARD "ECARDADIA"

Mods are gonna block you again  SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN (aka MOLINA)   

  Santa Fe New Mexican , who  did you "order " that "ring" from, I want one too. If they have a email address, please post it , thanks.  :thumbsup:ogd

There should be rubies in those eyes!!

B

Well I'm not to paticular about colored stones, though maybe in a historical sense your are probably correct, with a ring like that you dont need eyes. Wonder what happened to Santa Fe, he never replied to my email or this thread. I sure would like to order a copy of that ring. Vio Con Dios Amegios,and dont put to much hot sauce in your 

Cool Lamar, thanks.  That was a good point about the Castillano pronunciation, but I just can't bring myself to say 'Grah-thee-as', like you see in a lot of the 'Spanish in 15 minutes' books.  My wife is originally from Torreon, Coahuila, Mexico.  She does not speak English.  Some of her friends speak English, but when they come over, they speak Spanish, just to aggravate me, I suppose.  You will not hear much English spoken in my home unless I step on one of the toys the grandkids left lying around.  (Funny, they might not speak English, but they understand all the cuss words)  Real de Tayopa has a good point.  Just like in the US, pronunciation and usage varies from area to area in Latin American countries.  I showed Maria this post.  She is fairly educated and taught school some in Guadalajara.  She does not understand the usage of the word 'escardar', but would say 'quitar las mala hierbas' for removing weeds from the field.  She slightly rolls the r in caverna.  Instead of cavidad she would say 'ollo', hole, which is essentially the same.  Or cueva.  She explained perfil y contorno to me, and you got that dead on.  She has no clue what risco or percipico mean, as she callls that bajada.  I am around a lot of people who haven't been in the US too long, from many Latin American countries and Mexican States, and I know that small percentage that definitely pronounce the 'v' as 'b', and spell it that way.  Excellent info, Lamar! Thanks, ya me voy!

Dear RGINN;
Yes my friend, in most parts of Mexico I think the most commonly used word would be HOYO (hole) however in Bolivia, the most commonly used word for HOLE in POZO, which is actually a well.  By the way, an OLLA is a big saucepan, which we call PAELLA in Catalan Spanish. It can get kind of confusin my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear RGINN;
The words RISCO and PERCIPIO are nothing more than a sheer cliff or a drop-off and they are used interchangeably. The word BAJADA means DOWN and DE BAJADA means GOING down! We use the word BAJADA to describe something like a dip in the road or a low spot in a field, etc. We use the words RISCO and PERCIPIO to describe a steep cliff, as in two more steps in the wrong direction and it's 'Adios muchachos'! Also, the word RISCO is used as a name for a really tasty fritter with honey glazing. I suppose this is because the pastry reminds one of a rocky crag or something. As an aid in remembering the word PERCIPIO, you only need to remember the English word equal, which is PERCIPICE, which also means the exact same thing. Simply throw an Spanish accent to the English word and add an O to the end of it and VIOLA! You're speaking Spanish, my friend!
Your friend;
LAMAR

Mi Amigo Lamar: You posted -->

'Simply throw an Spanish accent to the English word and add an O to the end of it and VIOLA! You're speaking Spanish, my friend!
Your friend;'
~~~~~~~~~~

This is my Spanish speaking friends,  and my wife's main problemo with me  sniff.  "Shutto el dooro" sigh.

Don Jose de la Mancha

OMG Tayopa I'm laughin so hard I'm about to fall out of the chair!  I'm readin Lamar's post and payin attention really hard and didn't catch that line, but it's priceless taken out of context!  And we know you really didn't mean it that way Lamar!  That exchange should be on the banner.  I speak a lot of Spanish, Mexican Spanish, because I have to if I want anything to eat.

[day or time]

I would suggest that the word, escardadia, means the day or time for weeding or preparing a field for planting, or the time for planting.  In essence, it refers to a time of the year......Spring?  To make sense, escarda and dia should have been seperated. 

It would be interesting to see if someone can make that connection or come up with something better.
Just a blind guess, which will be obvious to someone like you.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe,

Charles Kenworthy's definition is similar.  In his 1997 book Treasure Secrets of the Lost Dutchman on page 74 he explains "escardadia" as a misspelling for the word "escardadera" which he translates as "weedhook", a tool used by farmers, however the Google Translater does not verify this translation.  Such a symbol is on the wall of Labarge Canyon, page 73, where there is a "trick in the trail" that requires a turn to the southeast, then up and between the "tontos", page 78.

I started a new thread on this book and hope you and others might get a chance to respond to the questions I posted there.

Bill

That's the trouble with an online (or book) translations.  Also, the same problem with learning a language in most schools.

It does not have the ability to translate anything but a direct word, and totally can miss any inflections - or dialects, or even proper uses. (such as proper, familiar, etc. - which spanish has a lot of).

B

That's the trouble with an online (or book) translations.  Also, the same problem with learning a language in most schools.

It does not have the ability to translate anything but a direct word, and totally can miss any inflections - or dialects, or even proper uses. (such as proper, familiar, etc. - which spanish has a lot of).

B

Hi Mrs. B...  I agree.  Translating words on these maps is a challenge to get the mapmaker's meaning and purpose for using the terms.  I really get skeptical when I see some English words used with the Spanish, for example "cave de casa".  In this example, I question the originality of the map.  Makes me think it is a "re-draw" by someone from the original.  Was anything left out from the original or added to confuse later viewers? 

The misspelling of a Spanish term doesn't necessarily cause me to question the map's authenticity.  I believe misspellings might be intentional for a particular reason, for example, to draw attention to this feature of the map.

Let's assume that the perfil map or one of the versions was authentic and one of the Peralta/Gonzales mines was nearby.  And lets assume that a natural feature visible from the trail was very close to the location of the destination.  And assume the site was over the hill where the marker is found.  And this feature looks like an upside down farming or gardening tool or could be shaped into looking like such a shape.   In my mind, it seems to me to be a logical strategy to place on the map a misspelled word that has a meaning to the mapmaker and intended users of something that reminds them of the trail marker.  This technique would add more protection and be less obvious in case the map falls into the wrong hands.

In this case, according to Kenworthy, the mine site is on the other side of the hill where the weed hook image is located.  The fact that the marker is not in the normal orientation that the tool would be used (upside down) could be significant and suggest a change in direction horizontally or vertically is necessary, ie, not only to "come this way UP the hill or around the hill AND THEN DOWN behind the hill to the mine or next marker". 

There is at least some logic in Kenworthy's interpretations of the perfil map and apparently he found a mine site.  Whether it was the LDM or a location used by the Dutchman in some manner is yet to be determined.  I still want to go there myself and see if I agree with his conclusions.

Bill

I'm runnin all these words by the wife.  She has no clue what escarda or escardadera mean.  The closest we knew was escarbar, which means to dig or scratch.  Could be a colloquialism from an hispanic speaking country, or an adaptation of another word.

I'm runnin all these words by the wife.  She has no clue what escarda or escardadera mean.  The closest we knew was escarbar, which means to dig or scratch.  Could be a colloquialism from an hispanic speaking country, or an adaptation of another word.

Thanks, RGINN, for the comments.  I agree.  It's probably a local colloquialism then misspelled.  I wonder if the word was such a term used by folks that lived around the area of Mexico where the Peralta family lived? 

Bill

The map does say 'caverna con casa'.  The 'rna' part is across the line.  It does look like somebody made a copy of another map, and it's not original, and may not mean much of nothin.  The KGC would use intentional misspellings to draw attention to certain words so that those in the know would pick up on the meaning.  (I don't know how I suddenly became an expert on KGC, but I'm re-readin Hillbilly Bob's book, so that probably produced that last statement.)

The map does say 'caverna con casa'.  The 'rna' part is across the line.  It does look like somebody made a copy of another map, and it's not original, and may not mean much of nothin.  The KGC would use intentional misspellings to draw attention to certain words so that those in the know would pick up on the meaning.  (I don't know how I suddenly became an expert on KGC, but I'm re-readin Hillbilly Bob's book, so that probably produced that last statement.)

Hi RGINN,

I stand corrected.  I went back and found the Perfil Map I was referring to an sure enough, the rest of the Spanish word is a little misplaced and to the right of the vertical line as you described.  While I was looking for that example, I found three versions of the Perfil Map and I bet there have been more.  Can anyone post an image of what is considered to be the original?

I have a few comments on the theory that the LDM legend was a creation to disguise a depository of the KGC and Jacob Waltz might have been a member and guardian or sentinel of the KGC.  I am just beginning my research on the KGC and this connection.  In the books I have that mention Jacob Waltz, I cannot find any reference to him being a soldier in the Confederacy.  A search on Ancestry.com gives many soldiers in the Union Army with the name of Jacob Waltz, but none in the Confederacy.  It is true that JW did not necessarily have to be a Confederate soldier in order to become a " sentinel" to protect a KGC depository.   Are there any references with information that JW was in any way tied to the Southern movement?  I have yet to read Shadow of the Sentinel by Getler and Brewer and suppose there will be some information in that book.

Thanks for keeping me straight,

Bill

Bill,

There are at least four Perfil Maps that I know of, and each one has some subtle differences. I think that Cactus Jumper knows a little more about this map than most.

Best-Mike

... There are at least four Perfil Maps that I know of, and each one has some subtle differences. I think that Cactus Jumper knows a little more about this map than most.

Thanks, Mike,

If CJ doesn't respond here in a while, I'll contact him via PM and ask him to post an image of the "official" original if he has one.

Bill

Mike and Bill,

I believe there are many, many Dutch Hunters out there who know more about the Perfil Map, than I do.  While I have many friends and relatives who looked for, and believed they found, Waltz's mine, I have never searched for it......on my own.

This copy of the map was said to have come from Erwin Ruth:



I may have something else buried around here somewhere.  I will look this week.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the quick reply.  If you have any others, it would be interesting to compare. 

I just wish these authors would put in their books where they got the "maps".  Some have indicated they came from the Superstition Mt. Historical Society Museum, but then you wonder where the Museum got the images.  It may be really difficult to track down the "original" perfil map that hasn't been copied over or modified in some way assuming that it exists.  I've noticed that the vertical letters under the arrow have been indicated at least two different ways which could be significant: " E. to W. to N. (or W ) to S." and "E. to W. tontos".  The first depiction might have a big meaning that defines how to orient the map or the shapes on the map.  The second depiction draws attention to "tontos" which some researchers define as the tall, narrow columns of rock that rise above the terrain like small geological versions of Weaver's Needle in several places in the Super's.  But, here again, the straight definition of "tontos" translates into English as "silly".  Maybe in this geological context it could mean "unusual" rock formations..... quien sabe...

Still curious,

Bill

Tag post, please ignore 

 

Bill,

There must be millions of unusual rock formations in the Superstitions.  I believe I have heard the hoo-doos referred to as Tontos in the past, but have no idea why.

The following picture was taken while we were searching for the circle in a circle from the Stone Maps.  It's right where I laid it out on a topo over forty years ago:



The heart formation would be considered unusual as well.  The darker brush below the heart forms a huge triangle.  Above it, on the main mountain, are numerous hoo-doos/Tontos:



Take care,

Joe

Bill, you must come up with that book and read it sometime; it's a good read.  We could probably all make more money writin about treasure than actually findin it.  I think the only more lucrative form of writin would be ransom notes, if everything worked out alright.

Bill, you must come up with that book and read it sometime; it's a good read. 

I know....   you are right...  I found a copy on Amazon and will probably send for it this week.

Bill

Bill,

There must be millions of unusual rock formations in the Superstitions.  I believe I have heard the hoo-doos referred to as Tontos in the past, but have no idea why.

The following picture was taken while we were searching for the circle in a circle from the Stone Maps.  It's right where I laid it out on a topo over forty years ago:



The heart formation would be considered unusual as well.  The darker brush below the heart forms a huge triangle.  Above it, on the main mountain, are numerous hoo-doos/Tontos:



Take care,

Joe

Hi Jo,

I learn something new every day.  Probably shows how much of a "cheechako" I am about the southwest and some of the terminology.   "hoo-doos" is a new term for me.  Any idea how it was derived? 

The pictures are special.  I know what you mean.  The shapes and images when just looking around are sometimes mesmerizing.  I don't know what it is about that part of Arizona, but I see a special beauty which is difficult to descrbe and impossible to forget.  Something is always drawing back to that wilderness.  But I think my next trip will be on horseback from Ron Feldman's OK Corral.

Bill

[In geology it simply means an erosion chimney [pillar] or column. I am unsure why they coined that word, but would guess that it has to do with the Native Americans believing that the forms are actually their dead ancestors. Thus they would be specters or spirits, which would fit in well with the voodoo theme.]

Bill,

Hoodoo is African in origin, for the most part.  It means conjuring or working magic on someone.  The name has been used widely for any number of applications.  It's probably an early African American corruption of the word voodoo.

In geology it simply means an erosion chimney [pillar] or column.  I am unsure why they coined that word, but would guess that it has to do with the Native Americans believing that the forms are actually their dead ancestors.  Thus they would be specters or spirits, which would fit in well with the voodoo theme.

I could be wrong, so don't go taking that opinion to the bank.  I shouldn't have hyphenated the hoo and the doo.

Take care,

Joe

Dear alaskabill;
The word HOODOO is strictly a treasure hunting word and it is derived from people such as myself, because every time a treasure hunter would point out a naturally formed rock column and tell a bystander that the colum was a sign and that there was a treasure in the immediate vicinity, the bystander would immediately and vocally exclaim to the treasure hunter "Hoodoo you thinking you're fooling?!?!?!? There's no treasure buried there!"  And that's how the word came to be, my friend.
Your hoodoo ya'll think you're kidding friend;
LAMAR

 

I've seen areas identified as hoodoos in Wisconsin, Michigan and now New Hampshire as well as Arizona and New Mexico. 

It seems to refer to many kinds of "column" shaped rock formations that are primarily formed by wind errosion (at least the ones I've heard called that are due to wind).

Just my $0.02

Dear alaskabill;
The word HOODOO is strictly a treasure hunting word and it is derived from people such as myself, because every time a treasure hunter would point out a naturally formed rock column and tell a bystander that the colum was a sign and that there was a treasure in the immediate vicinity, the bystander would immediately and vocally exclaim to the treasure hunter "Hoodoo you thinking you're fooling?!?!?!? There's no treasure buried there!"  And that's how the word came to be, my friend.
Your hoodoo ya'll think you're kidding friend;
LAMAR

Well, LAMAR, that brought several spontaneous loud bursts from "the golden pipes" and got my wife's attention in the other room !     That was great. She sez that I'm having absolutely too much fun on this forum, but of course I disagree....

Bill

[ROFL good one Lamar!]

    ROFL good one Lamar!   


I believe Cubfan has it - there are Hoodoos here in the Black Hills too, and are standing columns of stone. There is even a Hoodoo mining area, which however has none of the standing pillars.

I will have to remember Lamar's definition, reminds me of a mining town in CA - "Igo-ono".
Oroblanco

Roy,

"I will have to remember Lamar's definition, reminds me of a mining town in CA - "Igo-ono"."

Never been to Ono, but have spent some time in Redding.  Hardly a Biblical place.

Take care,

Joe

Lamar!   go fetch some fire wood and help Beth make some coffee hehehe

Don Jose de La Mancha

I found three versions of the Perfil Map and I bet there have been more.  Can anyone post an image of what is considered to be the original?


Bill

Alaskabill,
You asked for it in your post on Nov 15th, the original map. As you will see, the original is on cowhide. Almost all of the various printed copies are tracings and have data added by others, sometimes purposely to confuse the reader such as the N at the top.
PM me for details not stated here.

I just got a new 27inch monitor with an iMac computer yesterday and can't manage to resize my Cannon Rebel T1-I 15 megapixel pictures down to an acceptable size for posting here. I will email the (.jpg) photo (reduced to 15 or 20% but still rather large) to anyone who asks. (or better yet, someone tell me how to resize the photo small enough for posting it here.) All of my programs are for PC's and don't work on my new Macintosh.

dustcap -Ken Chichester

I just got a new 27inch monitor with an iMac computer yesterday and can't manage to resize my Cannon Rebel T1-I 15 megapixel pictures down to an acceptable size for posting here. I will email the (.jpg) photo (reduced to 15 or 20% but still rather large) to anyone who asks. (or better yet, someone tell me how to resize the photo small enough for posting it here.) All of my programs are for PC's and don't work on my new Macintosh.

dustcap -Ken Chichester

Hi Ken,

Let me know if the iMac suggestion worked to resize your pix.  Also you might check any software that came with your Cannon Rebel.  My Cannon came with the PhotoStudio app that I use.

Bill

[kchichester@cox.net]

I found three versions of the Perfil Map and I bet there have been more.  Can anyone post an image of what is considered to be the original?


Bill

Bill,

I finally found a way to send photos from iphoto file via the 'share' drop-down menu as you suggested. It would not give me an option to send to a file folder on my computer and had a heck of a time trying to find out just where it went. By sending it to myself in email I can now forward it (them) to you. (so I have another copy for later???) If I had your email address I could have sent it directly.
I have over 20 versions, related information, etc. of that map.
Reply to me directly at my email address        kchichester@cox.net   as an email with only three pictures was over 2MB... too big for here.!? (unless the max attachment size allowed is 12 TIMES 1000KB.  I understand it to be 1000KB max for all attachments per post. )

"Maximum attachment size allowed: 1000 KB, per post: 12"


I will try to attach the original leather map.

-Ken

 

...that came with your Cannon Rebel.  My Cannon came with the PhotoStudio app that I use.

Bill

Finally got that leather map to post.

The software that came with the Cannon was listed on my virus alert as having a 'KEY LOGGER' embedded so I won't be putting it on the new computer. That is the reason I went with Macintosh this time. Too many snoops on the old PC. (249 adware, key loggers, spyware, etc. along with 27 worms.)

-Ken

Bill,

..... I have over 20 versions, related information, etc. of that map.

Reply to me directly at my email address ......     

I will try to attach the original leather map.

-Ken

Hi Ken,

My email address is on the way for you to send back larger images.  Thanks in advance and have a great Holiday Season.

Bill

Bill, you must come up with that book and read it sometime; it's a good read.  We could probably all make more money writin about treasure than actually findin it.  I think the only more lucrative form of writin would be ransom notes, if everything worked out alright.

Hi RGINN,

Well, I found a copy of hillbilly bob's book, Shadow of the Sentinel on Amazon, got it a week ago and have since read it through twice!  I am now a "born again" Dutchman Researcher.  I consider his book authoritative, extremely well documented, and arguments mostly convincing.  In fact, his evidence and discussion about the KGC has convinced me that there is a high probability that the other great lost mine legend in the US, the Lost Adams Diggings, is a cover story for an operation executed by Confederate soldiers or sympathizers.

I guess these thoughts should be on the LAD and other threads.

I'd like to ask him a couple of questions.  Do you know if he has an "open" email available to his readers or other way to contact him?

Bill

Bill,

If you are interested in both sides of the story, I would reccomend that you pick up a copy of:
"FLIGHT INTO OBLIVION" by A.J. Hanna.  It's been published in hardback and paperback, so prices are wide ranging.

Merry Christmas,

Joe

Bill,

If you are interested in both sides of the story, I would recommend that you pick up a copy of:
"FLIGHT INTO OBLIVION" by A.J. Hanna.  It's been published in hardback and paperback, so prices are wide ranging.

Merry Christmas,

Joe

Hi Joe,

And a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you also.  Thanks for the recommended reading.  I'll check the libraries and see if a copy is available to me. 

I scanned the book's toc and index available on Amazon.  There were three references (only 7 pages) available on the "Confederate Treasure" and nothing about the KGC.

From the information available about the book it appears to be a very interesting and detailed report about the destiny of Clay's cabnet members that never made it into the usual history books about that period in our history.

When you indicate "...the other side of the story" , to what are you referring?

Always learning,

Bill

 

Bill,

I took a brief look into the KGC legend some time ago.  As I understood it, the treasure aspect of the story began with the Confederate Treasurey, and what became of it.

"Flight Into Oblivion" tells that story, as it was written by the men who lived it.  Here is a short passage from the book:

[The subdued unrest of the morning had completely vanished. Confusion was everywhere as members of Congress, various underofficials, and dignitaries clamored for places on all available trains of the Richmond & Danville Railroad which began leaving the Confederate capital late in the afternoon. About $5OO,000 in double eagle gold pieces, which had been seized in the United States mint in New Orleans in 1861, in copper coins and in silver bricks, gold ingots and nuggets, packed in sacks and boxes—all that remained of the treasure of the Confederacy and the private treasure of the banks of Richmond—had been loaded, during the afternoon, on one train under the supervision of Walter Philbrook, Senior Teller of the Treasury Department, and a group of his assistants. It was guarded by sixty young midshipmen from the Confederate States Naval Academy who were told by their Commandant, Captain William H. Parker, that they had been selected for this dangerous service because they were known to be brave, honest, and discreet young men, and gentlemen. They had been rushed up to Richmond from their school ship, the Patriot Henry, on the James River, and had arrived just in time to prevent what might have developed into a serious pillaging of the treasure by a mob. On another train were Brigadier General Josiah Gorgas, Chief of Ordnance, and a large number of employees from the armory which he had established at Richmond with the machinery captured at Harper's Ferry."

The rest of the book details what became of the that loot...... and the men who were fleeing the Government, a bite at a time.  I have a nice first edition, signed by Hanna.  It's an interesting piece of history and I have read it a couple of times.

I am no expert, or even a fan, of the KGC so my conclusions as to how they got their start could very well be all wrong.

Take care,

Joe

Thanks, Joe,

I had read some anecdotal information about the missing Confederate Treasure or the remaining assets in the Confederate Treasury several times in the past, but nothing to the detail that this book appears to provide about the period immediately following the surrender at Appomattox. 

I'll have to go to the library.

On the hunt,

Bill

[Reprint]

Bill,

If your library doesn't have a copy, you can pick this one up from Abe Books for under $19. which includes shipping:
______________________________

Flight Into Oblivion
Hanna, A.J.
Bookseller: Chop Suey Books
(Richmond, VA, U.S.A.)

Bookseller Rating:  

Quantity Available: 1
Book Description: Indiana University Press, Bloomington, 1959. Rae, John (illustrator). Reprint. Near Fine hardcover in a Very Good+ dust jacket. Pages and text are clean and show little age. Numerous b&w illustrations. Chipping to the corners and spine of the jacket, otherwise an attractive copy. 306 pp. Bookseller Inventory # 2006128
________________________________

It's well worth owning, even though I would prefer a first edition from 1938.  I have used mine for source material a number of times.

Good luck,

Joe

Bill, Bob Brewer has a blog web site. There is an email contact there: jalon@clearwire.net. John and Anita London wrote back and said Bob does not reply to emails anymore because he has trouble with his eyes.

Bill, Bob Brewer has a blog web site. There is an email contact there: jalon@clearwire.net. John and Anita London wrote back and said Bob does not reply to emails anymore because he has trouble with his eyes.

Salvor6,

Thanks for the lead.  I think I'll try anyway.  If he still keeps his blog online, he probably is just selective about responding.  I'm sure he gets inundated with requests.  I've got some information to pass along to him. 

Bill