caves, large caches, poision gases

I head on some of these posts that you have to worry about poison gases if you stumble upon and old larger cache.  What kind of gases do they give off? Is it from the silver or gold or do both metals give off poisonous gas?  How would you go about trying to recover such a cache? Is there any type of breathing aparatus you could wear while recovering the cache?  Was just curious and thought some of you could share your thoughts.   

I personally don't believe the stories of Poisonious Gasses
on Treasures or Booby Traps Either.
Of course That is My Personal Opinion.

In caves you do need to worry about bad air from Bat Guano
& Possably ground Gasses (Black Damp) (Explosive Gasses) in some areas,
But I'm only aware of them in Coal Mines

Could be Jeff, however I have a few acquaintances that have died from uncovering a cache in the open.  Self suggestion?

Don Jose de  La Mancha

Gas is usually found in mines. It occurs as the coal seam decays. That is not to say that it isn't found in caves. Say if bats had used a cave for many, many years you can be sure gas will be present.

Could be Jeff, however I have a few acquaintances that have died from uncovering a cache in the open.  Self suggestion?

Don Jose de  La Mancha

I Don't plan on Debating this thread
But I guess I should explain My Reasoning.

What did they Die from ?

I have heard stories of Snakes Guarding trasure.
First off Snakes do not stay in one place
they would crawel off to hunt.
 Getting bit by a snake would be Coincidence.
so would getting bit by a spider or other Bug.

I don't think anyone would build Closing walls.
Earthquakes or a big round Bowling Ball 

A Created cave-in would be stupid.
Would prevent the Hider from retrieval Also.

I would also add any trap would probably be
so lame it would be obvious.
Other then maybe a Pit but that could also be
coincidence if boards just happened to rot.

Covering the treasure with a pile of rocks would
be most realistic. traps would be Natural a "Hernia" 
or Broken toe

Would always say Be carefull. I just believe booby traps
are only in Movies & Fictions to make them intresting.

Although I Won't Debate my opinion,
I would like to hear what types of
Booby traps your talking.

Why would anyone hide a cache in the open ?
Only if they were sure They would be the first back
or didn't get the chance to hide it better.

I wouldn't risk a Booby trap working

Final Thought.
Caves are accessable by Animals of all sizes.
Any traps like trip wires
 would be set off a long time ago

As for gases, I wonder if it could be caused by dissimilar metals contacting. This
causes corrosion, so it would have to give off some kind of gas. I would think this would only be a problem in enclosed spaces, if at all.

If 1,000 bats return to their cave after raiding a bean farm- the gas they pass would be deadly!

Or one cave explorer who'd just eaten at Taco Bell.... 

Probably best to borrow Aunt Millie's parakeet and take it along for the adventure.  If it falls over, time to book...! 

No poisonous gases, no worries

Good afternoon  Buddy SWR;  You posted -->No poisonous gases, no worries   

As you once told me, "Positive Statements require positive proofs". Prove it to me.

Don Jose de La Mancha .

Good afternoon  Buddy SWR;  You posted -->No poisonous gases, no worries   

As you once told me, "Positive Statements require positive proofs". Prove it to me.

Don Jose de La Mancha .

You must have me confused with someone else. I have never made such a preposterous statement!

OH?   he he he

Don Jose de La manchan

Washington post April 2nd 1927

Morgantown, W. Va., April 1 (By A.P.). -- Two mine rescue men sacrificed their lives late today in a fruitless effort to save a fellow rescuer from deadly gas in the Connellsville by-product mine here. The three victims were members of a crew from Parnassus, Pa., and were summoned to take part in the reopening of the mine, which had been sealed for two months because of fire in the workings.

Just to add my 2 cents worth...

Few, if any, caves will have a buried cache..

More rumor or wishful thinking than reality...

However, many caves, especially old abandoned mines do have poisonous gasses...

Several years ago, a couple of young, stupid and drunk, post teens entered a boarded-up mine in Silverado Canyon (Orange County, CA) and died from gas fumes within 50 feet of the entrance...it happens.

I have heard stories of Snakes Guarding trasure.
First off Snakes do not stay in one place
they would crawel off to hunt.
 Getting bit by a snake would be Coincidence.
so would getting bit by a spider or other Bug.

I don't think anyone would build Closing walls.
Earthquakes or a big round Bowling Ball 

A Created cave-in would be stupid.
Would prevent the Hider from retrieval Also.

I would also add any trap would probably be
so lame it would be obvious.
Other then maybe a Pit but that could also be
coincidence if boards just happened to rot.

Covering the treasure with a pile of rocks would
be most realistic. traps would be Natural a "Hernia" 
or Broken toe

Would always say Be carefull. I just believe booby traps
are only in Movies & Fictions to make them intresting.

Why would anyone hide a cache in the open ?
Only if they were sure They would be the first back
or didn't get the chance to hide it better.

I wouldn't risk a Booby trap working

Final Thought.
Caves are accessable by Animals of all sizes.
Any traps like trip wires
 would be set off a long time ago

Jeff,

I guess I will begin with your misinformed opinion of snakes. Rattlesnakes will stay in one place as long as there is a constant source of food. They will den together in huge numbers in Winter. I had this argument with Diving Doc a couple of years ago, and he had to apologize after some research (and you know how loathe he was to apologize).

As far as traps, they were ABSOLUTELY used as well. I even posted one here that was half tripped. There is also a good set of pics of one found at a hidden gold mine in Mexico on Mike Pickett's Website:

http://treasurehuntersuniversity.com/death.html

I will say that of all the supposed death traps I have seen posted on TNet, there are maybe two that I think have merit.

Best-Mike

Jeff of pa Wrote " I have heard stories of Snakes Guarding treasure."

Me Too But, the ones I have heard about are not real. Giant serpents " Santurians " Ghost snakes, whatever you want to call them. I have heard of them guarding Treasures. I hope to never run into one.

Jeff,

I guess I will begin with your misinformed opinion of snakes. Rattlesnakes will stay in one place as long as there is a constant source of food. They will den together in huge numbers in Winter. I had this argument with Diving Doc a couple of years ago, and he had to apologize after some research (and you know how loathe he was to apologize).

As far as traps, they were ABSOLUTELY used as well. I even posted one here that was half tripped. There is also a good set of pics of one found at a hidden gold mine in Mexico on Mike Pickett's Website:

http://treasurehuntersuniversity.com/death.html

I will say that of all the supposed death traps I have seen posted on TNet, there are maybe two that I think have merit.

Best-Mike

Mike,

Are you saying Rattle Snakes will wait for food to come to them,

And Breed for a Hundred or so years

letting their babies grow & continue Homesteading ?

& If there is a large amount of Rattlers  in an enclosed place like a cave,
you won't hear them while getting close ?

I Must admit I have walked in the woods since I was old enough to walk in the woods.
And have heard strange noisis like a rattle Sound sometimes so loud it sounded like
I was on top of it, But Don't know what a rattler sounds like.
so it never dawned on me to be carefull.
But I would think in a cave where noises should not be, any noise I make
would set off them Rattling and making me realize I finally hear what they sound like.
and retreat

Jeff of pa Wrote " I have heard stories of Snakes Guarding treasure."

Me Too But, the ones I have heard about are not real. Giant serpents " Santurians " Ghost snakes, whatever you want to call them. I have heard of them guarding Treasures. I hope to never run into one.

Yea I heard of a Giant Robot Guarding a Treasure once also
I Think it was Japanese 

Here is some interesting reading about Rattlesnake dens. They do hibernate in the winter in mass dens, leave for the summer months to hunt and such, and then typically return to the same den to hibernate when winter returns.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/rattlesnake.pdf

Here is some interesting reading about Rattlesnake dens. They do hibernate in the winter in mass dens, leave for the summer months to hunt and such, and then typically return to the same den to hibernate when winter returns.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/rattlesnake.pdf

Yea I always was under the Impression snakes like to sun themselves.
But was never sure if all types do.

I Know they don't like the N.E. Cold.

Rattlesnakes are cold-blooded animals. They are not particularly intelligent or adaptive. They require fairly dry climates and prefer rough, rocky ground or expanses of open ground.

Rattlesnakes hibernate from November to April, usually in large groups in subterranean cavities in rocks, foundations, buildings, and rodent burrows. Occasionally, they come out to sun themselves on warm days. In the spring, snakes leave the den and disperse to the surrounding countryside until fall. Throughout the warm months they spend nights hunting small birds and rodents, and days coiled up under the shelter of rocks, logs, machinery, or bushes. They may also crawl into garages, basements, under patio furniture, hay bales, and wood piles to get out of the sun and rest.

Keep your cool when you meet your first rattlesnake. Rattlers are rarely aggressive. They generally make every effort to avoid people if given a chance. Most people are bitten because they surprise the snake, which causes it to strike in self-defense. The basic safety precautions are to wear calf-high boots, to look carefully where you are stepping, crawling, or sitting, and to test hidden areas with a stick. When you see a snake, carefully back away and leave it alone. If it is close to people or is a threat to livestock, it may be destroyed or captured and moved to a more suitable area.

A rattlesnake can only strike about three-fourths of its body length. If it is a 2-foot snake, stay back 4 to 5 feet to dispatch it.

Skinned, cleaned, cut into steaks and rolled in a little cornmeal and salt, fried rattlesnake meat is good to eat.

Rule No 1. is to stay calm and cool if you get bitten. People are injured more by fear than by the actual bite. Venom is injected in only 20% of rattlesnake strikes. Since the effect of the bite takes several hours for full effect, stay calm and seek medical help. Due to fear, people run and fall off cliffs, become overheated and dehydrated, and carve up their bodies trying to rid themselves of the venom. Don't grab a knife and start cutting. If medical help is within an hour, go directly to a physician or hospital.

When a snake hits, any of three conditions may result. First, the snake may hit, but not inject venom. It is not striking for food. It is out to surprise and defend. The only damage will be two small hypodermic punctures. If the wound does not sting immediately, become painful or discolored, venom may not have been injected and nothing further will result. Second, the snake may inject only a small dose. This may be very painful but will be absorbed and countered by the tissues of the surrounding limbs without permanent damage. Third, the snake might inject a full charge causing serious illness or death. In any case, get to medical help immediately.

http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/eb0984/eb0984.html

So most of you feel that there are no such gases that are made from old stacked silver or old stacked gold and that the only gas you would have to worry about is of piled bat guano if its in a cave       So no such metals should break down composition over years or if in contact with other metals / minerals shouldn`t give off any type of harmful fumes or anything that could harm you by any means?

Is there anyway to repel rattlesnakes while your walking , hiking, explorieng so you don`t end up coming across one in your path etc?

build a dam inside a cave to flood over cache this will keep out innocent people. which is called a water trap which works like a everflowing toilet.

So most of you feel that there are no such gases that are made from old stacked silver or old stacked gold and that the only gas you would have to worry about is of piled bat guano if its in a cave       So no such metals should break down composition over years or if in contact with other metals / minerals shouldn`t give off any type of harmful fumes or anything that could harm you by any means?

Is there anyway to repel rattlesnakes while your walking , hiking, explorieng so you don`t end up coming across one in your path etc?

In my opinion No Gasses from Gold or silver.

only Foreign substances could cause a Gas

there is snake repellent but i don't know if it works like
tic repellent or like dog mace

most wear boots and chaps.

I live & Let Live & just ignore the Risks so sorry can't help

Kronos416 Wrote  " So most of you feel that there are no such gases that are made from old stacked silver or old stacked gold and that the only gas you would have to worry about is of piled bat guano if its in a cave ".

No Sir Not me. I do beleave that Gold and silver release gasses. This is how many people in Mexico find Treasures. By chasing the fires caused by these Gasses. Many more have died when uncovering the Caches by not letting them air out.

I have seen in some books as well as heard from other treasure hunters that some of the Mexican miners used to bury whisky bottles with cyanide mixed in them over a burial and if you break one with a shovel one good smell of the gas could kill you.  Also Black powder as it deteriorates gives off a gas called black death that will kill you very fast.

Minetres

So most of you feel that there are no such gases that are made from old stacked silver or old stacked gold and that the only gas you would have to worry about is of piled bat guano if its in a cave       So no such metals should break down composition over years or if in contact with other metals / minerals shouldn`t give off any type of harmful fumes or anything that could harm you by any means?

Absolutely. Otherwise, there would be warnings posted in bank vaults, safety deposit boxes and the like. Fort Knox and the Bank of England would have haz-mat signs posted all over them.

Minettres you can forget about the cyanide trap thingie. cyanide has to react with an acid to form Hydrocyanic acid.  Just don't ingest any, reacts with tummy acid, zap.

I believe that it was in the late 1800's when it was first formulated. too late for the Spanish.

I can smell an open drum of cyanide from 50 meters away

After being hit with a light case of cyanide poisoning, I have become sensitized to it.

Don Jose de La Mancha

HI the remark about banks and vaults is incorrect since I have seen very few consisting of impervious layers of sun hardened adobe with the accompanying chemicals..

This treasure was recoveed with the first sign as a luminous gas, then pinpointed wth a detector. 1/2 of a mule load of 7 mules.

Don Jose de La Mancha

The biggest thing I woulod worry about in sealed dank places underground, is a little thing called HISTOPLASMOSIS.

Its' a fungus that grows in sealed underground places (sealed mines and vaults for example). When the dirt on the floor is disturbed, it will float around with the dust, and if inhaled, will get into your system. It will come on like a bad case of the flu. If you let it go too long, it is fatal.

If you open up something that has been sealed for a long time, wear a filtered mask.

Best-Mike

[bad air from Bat Guano]

HI the remark about banks and vaults is incorrect since I have seen very few consisting of impervious layers of sun hardened adobe with the accompanying chemicals..

The remark about banks and vaults are not incorrect. If stacking large amounts of gold or silver together created poisonous gasses it would be posted by that institution. Furthermore, if these conditions were to exist, it would be noted in some official content….in some part of the world…over the past few hundred years and not only on a treasure hunting forum.
 

The biggest thing I woulod worry about in sealed dank places underground, is a little thing called HISTOPLASMOSIS.

Jeff covered that in more simpler terms:

In caves you do need to worry about bad air from Bat Guano
& Possably ground Gasses (Black Damp) (Explosive Gasses) in some areas,
But I'm only aware of them in Coal Mines

I head on some of these posts that you have to worry about poison gases if you stumble upon and old larger cache.  What kind of gases do they give off? Is it from the silver or gold or do both metals give off poisonous gas?  How would you go about trying to recover such a cache? Is there any type of breathing aparatus you could wear while recovering the cache?  Was just curious and thought some of you could share your thoughts.   

OK, there are no naturally occuring gases or poisonous substances given of by clean, pure gold or silver that I'm aware of.

There could possibly be toxic gasses, fumes or other poisonous substances either man applied or natural like has been mentioned molds, fungus, bacteria.  Water could leach arsenic found in quartz or other strata and drip it on the treasure.

Man applied could be any number of toxic things including traps, pits with spikes, deadfalls and viable explosives triggered by buried trip wires.

It might be safer to go into a cave or tunnel to recover a treasure than walking out your front door in these times.  I would recommend if you must go in to go careful and easy and at least consider there could be toxins or traps and prepare.  We don't go into any enclosed space without ventilating and nothing is handled bare handed without a good bath.

what I don't remember seeing mentioned
that just popped into my head

you would want to be carefull of backing
an Animal into a corner
if it happens to be in there.
 Don't matter if it's Rabid or not

Mercury vaporizes at room temperatures.  Could be associated vapors from nugget caches or poorly/partially refined end products. Lots of the old timers used the quicksilver and likely stashed a lot of their booty coated with it.  Not a quick death but not a pleasant life with it in your system I hear.

I used to work at nuclear power plants.  Prior to entering confined spaces, we had a crew that would check air quality.  There were several occasions the space had to be ventilated prior to entry.

There are gases while not poisonous that are heavier than air and displace same.  I would be more concerned w/ a lack of oxygen than poisonous gas, both will kill you dead.

SWR  you posted-->

The remark about banks and vaults are not incorrect. If stacking large amounts of gold or silver together created poisonous gasses it would be posted by that institution. Furthermore, if these conditions were to exist, it would be noted in some official content….in some part of the world…over the past few hundred years and not only on a treasure hunting foru
~~~~~~~~~~~~
A)  you obviously did not read my post in it's entirety.   I posted -->

HI the remark about banks and vaults is incorrect since I have seen very few consisting of     
      "impervious layers of sun hardened adobe with the accompanying chemicals"..

The last part tells the story.  If the metals are enclosed in an impervious area consisting of dry, impacted , Adobe,  and subjected to whatever chemicals are present in the materiel, then a  chemical reaction is inevitable.   Generally this impervious layer of Adobe is loosened with the first rains, which is when most of the luminous gas is seen.

B) As a matter of fact, Spanish and European literature has references to this phenomena almost from the beginning of written data.

Don Jose de La Mancha

SWR  you posted-->

The remark about banks and vaults are not incorrect. If stacking large amounts of gold or silver together created poisonous gasses it would be posted by that institution. Furthermore, if these conditions were to exist, it would be noted in some official content….in some part of the world…over the past few hundred years and not only on a treasure hunting foru
~~~~~~~~~~~~
A)  you obviously did not read my post in it's entirety.   I posted -->

HI the remark about banks and vaults is incorrect since I have seen very few consisting of     
      "impervious layers of sun hardened adobe with the accompanying chemicals"..

The last part tells the story.  If the metals are enclosed in an impervious area consisting of dry, impacted , Adobe,  and subjected to whatever chemicals are present in the materiel, then a  chemical reaction is inevitable.   Generally this impervious layer of Adobe is loosened with the first rains, which is when most of the luminous gas is seen.

Excuse me for pointing this out, but you are the one who injected the comment "impervious layers of sun hardened adobe with the accompanying chemicals". In no way did I imply, hint or mention sun-hardened adobe with accompanying chemicals in my comment. You took it upon yourself to do that.

I stand by my original opinion that there would sufficient warnings and documentations, somewhere around the world, over the past four or five hundred years, that would support this theory. Not just banter on a internet forum.

B) As a matter of fact, Spanish and European literature has references to this phenomena almost from the beginning of written data.

Feel free to bring some of those “references” to the table.

Don Jose dela Mancha Wrote "  Generally this impervious layer of Adobe is loosened with the first rains, which is when most of the luminous gas is seen. "

Thank You Don Jose. No one can tell me they don't exist. Ive seen these fires in the mountains. Some are orange like a setting sun and some are yellow with a hint of Blue. Different fires for different materials. Like I said before people in Mexico have found Treasure by chasing these fires.

Good morning SWR:  First, we are not talking about bank vaults, but Mother Earth's  ground. That is where the luminous gases that we are concerned with appear. 

Second, can you "deny" that chemicals occurring in the ground, in intimate contact with  buried metals, will not have a ionic reaction which can conceivably produce visible products under certain conditions?

third:  Literature abounds with references to luminous gases  due to buried metals, however I am too busy right now to do your work  for you, so just check on  De re Metalica  1500's and  --->

Also a Quote from a semi scientific journal relating to so called spiritual occurrences -->

"All sources of ionization and piezoelectric effects would give rise to charged bodies. These charged bodies in cold moist places would attract water molecules and take the form of white ghostly bodies, often with “long hairs and without legs”.  ----Other charged bodies could directly burst into luminous bodies,  --- which are likely sources of many UFOs.

Go to -->  An astro physicist / Cosmologist  writes on lights,  scroll down to "EARTH LIGHTS" for a general discussion .

http://www.astronomycafe.net/weird/lights/brown15.htm


There are literally hundreds of references to these luminous gases, so go do your work in research,, I did mine in the field. 

In fact I have just posted a picture above of a treasure that was primarily discovered with a luminous gas. Post # 27.

Victorrio, you are quite correct.  I too have seen them.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Is there anyway to repel rattlesnakes while your walking , hiking, explorieng so you don`t end up coming across one in your path etc?
[/quote]

I have never heard of snake repellant. I live in Southern Arizona, and there really isn't much you can do to keep them out of your path. The main thing is watch where you are walking. If you get bit, seek medical attention asap but stay calm (i know, i dont see how you could stay calm of bitten by a rattler.) Anyway, i kill probably about 6 a year or more. Not for pleasure, but because they are in the yard and i can't risk me or my animals getting bit.

And yes, Rattlesnakes do hybernate during the winter. We were just expolring a cave and there was a small opening in the back of the cave that my husband and his brother crawled into. Come to find out it served as a den for 100 or more rattlesnakes. They were outa there quick!!!! lol! 

I have never heard of snake repellant. 

http://www.liquidfence.com/snake-repellents.html?gclid=CJbY1ejLgpgCFQMnGgodohebDg

i doubt it would work for his purpose though

unless you could soak your clothes in it.


Most traditional snake repellents use naphthalene, a chemical that has been shown to cause liver damage, anemia and is classified by the EPA as a Class C possible human carcinogen. Liquid Fence Snake Repellent is naphthalene free, earth and family friendly, and just as guaranteed effective at repelling snakes. 

I don't think it would work either.

It's not the poison gas that bothers me , it's those dang poison tipped darts that shoot out of the walls that get me everytime.

Snake Repellent for snake infested areas. Get a box of moth balls. Then get two eggs pour them in a bowl and scramble them with a fork. Do not cook. pour raw over moth balls. Make sure every moth ball is coated with egg. Scatter over Infested area. Don't know if it works but I was told that snakes will think they are quail eggs. They will swallow them and die as a result of their stomachs blowing up.   If you are one of those snake friendly people wear cowboy chaps and boots. I don't recommend snake chaps that only go as high as the knee. don't be leave that snakes do not strike above the knee.That is falls. be leave me. Some snakes " Rattlers " can strike as high as the hip area of an average man. 

Guys, I just discovered this site today and I am quite fascinated by it . This is my first post here, but I can contribute a little to the discussion.

The luminous gasses some discuss here are new to me, but sure sound very interesting. I can only comment on cave gasses, though, since I consider myself quite experienced in this area. I am a speleology instructor, I own a speleology school and have more than 18 years of field experience primarily in new caves discovery and exploration.

If you are concerned about limestone caves (which are about 98% of all caves) you don't have much to worry about. Typically, two types of gas are found in such caves - CO2 and CO. The first (carbon dioxide) builds up in caves with no free fair flow (rare) where there is a lot of organic rotting material near the entrance (usually dead leaves and plants). It can also build up if there are carcasses in the cave. It is easy to detect - if you find that you are breathing faster than normal, you should check with flame immediately. Try to light a match. If it does not light, get out.

The other type of gas - the CO (carbon oxide) is much more dangerous, you will not feel it in any way before it is too late, but it is very rare and it is highly unlikely that you bump into it. It usually forms in non-ventilated areas between two sumps in underground rivers. A cave sump should not be attempted without proper equipment and experience, and I doubt that many of you are trained cave divers, so this is really not of concern.

As for other dangerous gasses - flammable, etc, they are found in mines, not in natural caves. Don't confuse mines with caves - they have nothing in common. There are very real dangers exploring mines, but I will not get into details on this.

So, if you need any info on natural caves exploration, I am ready to help with information. I am quite far from the US though (eastern Europe), so no field trips.

Guys, I just discovered this site today and I am quite fascinated by it . This is my first post here, but I can contribute a little to the discussion.

The luminous gasses some discuss here are new to me, but sure sound very interesting. I can only comment on cave gasses, though, since I consider myself quite experienced in this area. I am a speleology instructor, I own a speleology school and have more than 18 years of field experience primarily in new caves discovery and exploration.

If you are concerned about limestone caves (which are about 98% of all caves) you don't have much to worry about. Typically, two types of gas are found in such caves - CO2 and CO. The first (carbon dioxide) builds up in caves with no free fair flow (rare) where there is a lot of organic rotting material near the entrance (usually dead leaves and plants). It can also build up if there are carcasses in the cave. It is easy to detect - if you find that you are breathing faster than normal, you should check with flame immediately. Try to light a match. If it does not light, get out.

The other type of gas - the CO (carbon oxide) is much more dangerous, you will not feel it in any way before it is too late, but it is very rare and it is highly unlikely that you bump into it. It usually forms in non-ventilated areas between two sumps in underground rivers. A cave sump should not be attempted without proper equipment and experience, and I doubt that many of you are trained cave divers, so this is really not of concern.

As for other dangerous gasses - flammable, etc, they are found in mines, not in natural caves. Don't confuse mines with caves - they have nothing in common. There are very real dangers exploring mines, but I will not get into details on this.

So, if you need any info on natural caves exploration, I am ready to help with information. I am quite far from the US though (eastern Europe), so no field trips.

Thanks for the tips and a very informative post.

Welcome to TreasureNet   

Geko...you da man.  Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.

Sure, no problem 

There is some other bit of slightly incorrect information here, which I forgot to address:

The biggest thing I woulod worry about in sealed dank places underground, is a little thing called HISTOPLASMOSIS.

Its' a fungus that grows in sealed underground places (sealed mines and vaults for example). When the dirt on the floor is disturbed, it will float around with the dust, and if inhaled, will get into your system. It will come on like a bad case of the flu. If you let it go too long, it is fatal.

If you open up something that has been sealed for a long time, wear a filtered mask.

Best-Mike

Histoplasmosis is real, but the description is not accurate. It is not found in "sealed" places. If something has been air-tight sealed for a long time there are other things to worry about - mainly CO, CO2 and probably some artificially introduced gases.

Histoplasmosis is not caused by dirt, it is a fungus (H. capsulatum) which grows only on bat and bird guano (droppings). The spores get airborne when the conditions are dry. So, if you get in a very dry cave which has a big bat/bird colony inside and you find that by moving you raise dust, wear a dust mask by all means. Usually caves are moist places and this is not a big concern, although there are certain areas in the world where Histoplasmosis is endemic. However, the "trigger" is dust-dry conditions and guano - conditions which are encountered only in very old caves.

If you want to learn more about the disease, which you should, Google it. It is a very nasty thing. But don't get paranoid. Even among cave explorers who do this full time for their whole lives such occurrences are extremely rare. Especially when you have an eye for dry places you can completely avoid it

Hi Geko:  Excellent fill in data.  Thanks my friend.  I may be contacting you soon  for more information.   We have a series of extensive limestone caves / tunnels carved by the river in the past underlying a 2- 4000 ft cap of Basalt which I wish to investigate since the contact zone has shown a tremendous amount of free Gold. according to the local Indians,  but has not been recovered.   

Also there are a series of very extensive caves near here which show evidence of having been used as a living area.  Some supposedly run for kilometers and have never been explored in known times, but non native artifacts have been recovered from them....

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hi Geko:  Excellent fill in data.  Thanks my friend.  I may be contacting you soon  for more information.   We have a series of extensive limestone caves / tunnels carved by the river in the past underlying a 2- 4000 ft cap of Basalt which I wish to investigate since the contact zone has shown a tremendous amount of free Gold. according to the local Indians,  but has not been recovered.   

Also there are a series of very extensive caves near here which show evidence of having been used as a living area.  Some supposedly run for kilometers and have never been explored in known times, but non native artifacts have been recovered from them....

Don Jose de La Mancha

Sure, write me a PM if I can be of help. 

Hey DJ,
The free gold is very dangerous, allow a professional to inspect the area before entering. Infact just send me the coordinates and i'll check it out for you and let you know what I find, I mean what the conditions are like!

Where i operate in the Philippines , i can tell you for sure, some of the sites of jap occupation ARE mined . You have to be very sure before you dig. Best get someone else to do the digging while you watch from a distance !

Is there anyway to repel rattlesnakes while your walking , hiking, explorieng so you don`t end up coming across one in your path etc?

I have never heard of snake repellant. I live in Southern Arizona, and there really isn't much you can do to keep them out of your path. The main thing is watch where you are walking. If you get bit, seek medical attention asap but stay calm (i know, i dont see how you could stay calm of bitten by a rattler.) Anyway, i kill probably about 6 a year or more. Not for pleasure, but because they are in the yard and i can't risk me or my animals getting bit.

And yes, Rattlesnakes do hybernate during the winter. We were just expolring a cave and there was a small opening in the back of the cave that my husband and his brother crawled into. Come to find out it served as a den for 100 or more rattlesnakes. They were outa there quick!!!! lol! 
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1)tall thick rubber hiking waders.
2) a. pull trigger b. hammer strike  c. "repellent" propells towards head at high rate  d. rattle snake "repelled"  (last resort if rural enough area, if close to homes maybe proactively "repel" them.)

So my squirtgun won't work to repel a snake?I don't like the other kind of gun especially if gold fever is present. An air pistol any good? I have heard gold gives off tiny amounts of arsenic gas and arsenic is a gold indicator in mineral and soil assays for prospectors looking for gold deposits in an area. I will be using a hiking stick myself and will be sure to wear gaiters and heavy brush pants in the Superstition Mtns next month. Any recommendations for brush pants that won't get too heavy and hot in Arizona heat in April? I could always use some new friends out that way too if anybody is interested in meeting up to nugget hunt?

   I almost passed out  3 times last year.I was panning for gold in a tiny creek with tall, narrow banks in May. Something smelled really awful, then I just could not catch my breath and decided I better run back the way I came real quick. Happened to me twice in the same creek .As we were driving back home, it happened a 3rd time at a low spot between some small hills on the paved road. I did see tanks of Ammonia in the fields so I am assuming it was Ammonia /nitrogen gas causing my breathing difficulties?

  So, if I am alone and several hours away from help ,and get bit by a snake, am I  SOL? Does it help to have a stun gun to give the bite an electric shock? Some people swear by this, others say its bs, I dunno?

-Tom

My Guess
& That is all it is; a Guess

Those who swear by a stun Gun have never
been bit by a Poisonous Snake.
Just thought they were.

Or they only got enough venom in the first place
to make them slightly ill.

if anything I would think a shock
would only agitate you and make your blood
pump faster as you recover causing more problems.
may as will pour lighter Fluid on the bite & Light it 

My Guess
& That is all it is; a Guess

Those who swear by a stun Gun have never
been bit by a Poisonous Snake.
Just thought they were.

Or they only got enough venom in the first place
to make them slightly ill.

if anything I would think a shock
would only agitate you and make your blood
pump faster as you recover causing more problems.
may as will pour lighter Fluid on the bite & Light it 

Was on a missions air base in North Carolina. They had the electric pulse tools for snake bites and fire ants. the gist(not sure if it is proven or theory) venom of any kind reverses the polarity of your cells which causes the damage, the shock reverses it back. I would assume this would only help keep the bite area from deteriorating(flesh) but you would still need anti venom or some sort of treatment for the poisoning.

Stories of both luminous effects marking gold and silver caches and stories of snakes guarding treasure are both very old and very frequently heard. It's impossible to know which are claimed from experience and which are embellishments modeled on folk knowledge. That a glow could indicate precious metal was in many places stated in a very matter-of-fact way, as something everyone knew. Opinion was divided over whether it was generated by the gold or was a "guardian." Bottom line is - who would ever ignore such an observation?

The rattle snake guard stories I recall arise in places where the snakes are common and commonly found using all sorts of caves and crevasses. Nothing mystical about it. Only a fool would reach into a rock hole in snaky country without probing or looking. I've pumped gasoline through a copper tube into rock hills in West Texas and had to dance to avoid the dozens of rattlesnakes popping out all around. Most of the stories relate exploring a cave out of curiousity and observing piles of loot before hearing the "granddaddy of all rattlers" or seeing the snakes. before fleeing. The amount of treasure seen always sounds like something added to turn an otherwise mildly interesting snake story into an amazing tale. And the behaviors sometimes attributed to the snakes, such as advancing menacingly when the teller picks up gold and backing off when he puts it down, sound a bit too much like a necessary device to explain why he left empty-handed and never went back to deal with the supersnakes. One goes so far as to relate returning much later to find bits of snake scattered outside the cave, which had apparently been cleared out with dynamite by someone who presumably got the gold. It's always something.

welcome One mans trash...
glad to have you with us.
you put that very well.

  Yes the possability of snakes are always there
But not Snakes with Brains Watching over a treasure.

And The Lights have been seen by too many to be
just passed off as non Existant.

As Far as treasures, They almost always look like more
 In our memories then they realy Are.

But most Tales are based on something

And this being a treasure Hunting site
Destroying anyones dreams is Out of The Question.

so if any of you hear those tales, find that cave or see those lights
I sure hope you at least Investigate (with Caution) .

Good Hunting all !
Jeff

And this being a treasure Hunting site
Destroying anyones dreams is Out of The Question.

"The purpose of this website is for the friendly exchange of information about metal detecting and treasure hunting."

Destroying dreams is kinda harsh, isn't it?   How ya gonna exchange information if it is all one-sided and such?   

when someone requests information like this post
Fine !

When someone Gets Fed up With the "Negative Comments"
It's time to Live & Let live.

Anyone Starting a post has the right to Go on "Unmolested"
if they request it

Jeff...my two cents.

Traps are real. Make a trip out west and i'll personal disprove that myth for you.
Since your most likely a show me kinda guy like myself...i respect the thoughts.

The only naturaly deadly gas i am aware of comes from natural gas deposits we drill
for on sour gas wells. Ie: H2S. Smells like rotten eggs. By the time you get a good
whiff of it your down for the count....and if your lucky someone will be around to re
vive you with in ten minutes. H2S exposure only takes a small amount in the parts per
million to knock you on your bunz. But for the topic i'd assume a highly unlikely culprit.

I believe the handling of a cache of gold and or silver bars without rubber gloves and then
leather gloves over the rubber is what and where the myth lies. Although i have no proof;
i have heard handling such bars without the noted precautions result in cyanide poisoning
via absorbtion through ones skin that is on the bars not as a nasty trap but a left over from
the smelting process.

Bacteria...i saw a show on tv...either via discovery and or the history channel within the last 6 months where Dr. Hamas (sp) the king of egyptian antiquities found some burials along the route of alexander the great near an ancient oasis. He stated that even though the bodies were mumified and thousand of years old...the bacteria is a very real threat...and the below ground  burial chambers were aired out for 48 hrs before entry. So...if any thing i have going pops open a long sealed cavern-cave-etc. You can bet i will be respecting the 48hr rule for safeties sake.

Can smelted gold and or silver give of fumes? Umm...show me. However...i have heard and seen a few pictures related to said subject in a round about way...ie: poloraid film....8-10 am...take pics and a yellow or greenish haze will be seen on the picture if there is a target. So...seen some pics...and said owner of pics confirms the haze matched the end result of excavation....but i didn't see the end result so i can not comment. I can say i conducted the experiment myself...and where i thought we had a target...and only within the time frame i mentioned...i to recieved the same results. And so....the experiment was conducted again on differents days....and times...end result...same results. Odd indeed....but i have not finished said project due to a trap that almost got me....so i can not verify other than i am 50 percent sold on said subject.

Snakes....i would say not impossable....but highly unlikely. If there is no food to feed upon like any other creature...the snake will move on. And most of what i have seen or started into has always been sealed rather tight making the probability of snakes a moot point. I have seen a few things opened by mother nature and time...and in that case it would be a anomoly as a snake needs heat to move being a reptile...however there is to much of a good thing and i think said reptile might escape the rays under a stone..in a mine shaft portal...in short...wha ever is close and easy.

DW

HI:  frankly cyanide will be the least of your worriies. I f the bars are of Spanish origin, they will not have had cyanide in any of it's recovery operations.  Second in the smelting process any residual traces of cyanide will have been long burned off.

The same apies to Arsenic.

Don Jose de La Mancha

The Snake ( s )  are the  " Guardians ". The ones I have known about are not real . Think of them as ghost. Like I said,  Guardians.  Real de Tayopa I think you should know what  I'm talking about Sir. You have probably heard these type of legends before in the areas you hunt.  In my opinion they are real. I have met very humble, credible indigenous people that tell me they have seen these snakes and Ghost dogs. They are not real But they are.    I cannot prove it though. As for the Luminous Fires I have seen them more than once.

I will be going to an area where my map dowsing indicates a large amount of spanish/mexican gold possibly . When is the best time of day or nite to see these luminous clouds over a gold deposit? Just what do they look like exactly? Is it possible to communicate with a ghost, ghost critter? Would I dig under the spot where the yellow cloud is and how deep?
Thanks,ps, also need to know what the following characters refer to at the site? They are on a hillside in my aerial photo. C,  F,  H,  +,  3, 2, 7,  a white heart, large white cross, and what looks like a 5 fingered white starfish.  I know the 7 means end of trail ,stop here, Gold, the heart refers to Gold, and the large white cross refers to gold and safety.
THanks,

Tom,I will have my dowsing rods with me and several cameras, Whites TDi metal detector, etc. I promise not to go into any caves or mine tunnels without a buddy along and lots of rope ,water, and flashlights,weather report looks great, high 70, low 80's

Just to add my 2 cents worth...

Few, if any, caves will have a buried cache..

More rumor or wishful thinking than reality...

However, many caves, especially old abandoned mines do have poisonous gasses...

Several years ago, a couple of young, stupid and drunk, post teens entered a boarded-up mine in Silverado Canyon (Orange County, CA) and died from gas fumes within 50 feet of the entrance...it happens.

Heard that was actually in Modjeska canyon.


I think a lot of the poison gas rumors/stories are nothing more than the cave or shaft having a lack of useable oxygen. If the O2 is down around 14% or less, you're gone before you realize what the heck.

After watching this Steve Irwin episode of him playing near a rattlesnake den, a few years ago, I am real carefull in the mountains.



<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/QQUPKt907Vg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/QQUPKt907Vg</a>

Im not an expert on anything but I have a little understanding on alot of these subjects. My education is in geology, particularly karst hyrodology (caves and groundwater).  As already outlined caves and mines are two totally different animals. Caves are naturally forming almost always in limestone and poisones gases arent a real issue other then a radioactive gas called radon which is carcinogenic but dangerous exposures are measured over many years. The most hazardous things in caves is flooding following flash floods, falling in pits or having things fall on you in tight spots (see Floyd Collins) and yes maybe illnesses from things like Histoplasmosis (I have had).  I'd be more worried about exposure to fecal colliform which results from water running over human or animal wastes. Septic tanks arent overly effective in cave country because theres not enough soil for the water to filter out contaminants before it finds a crevice or conduit into the caves. Now mines have gases like methane which can kill you and H2S (Hydrogen sulfide) both can kill you. In the old days they took canaries into the mines and if they died either from low oxygen or exposure to poisoness gases then they knew it was time to get out.
Some of these same gases are attributed to causing some of the different types of lights people see and are lumped together into anomalous earth lights. Lights are seen in swamps (swamp gas) or in areas of high volcanic activity or following earth quakes. Also different types of electrical charges in the atmosphere cause lights such as “ball lighting” or St. Elmo’s Fire.  Even living organisms cause lights like Foxfire.
As for gold and silver they are highly nonreactive. That’s why when ancient relics are dug out of the ground after thousands of years they are still shiny which is particularly so for gold. They just don’t react with anything, they are stable elements.  I don’t know about contaminants from the smelting process.
Snakes do hibernate in pits sometimes but its natural not some trainable behavior such as guarding treasure. Now if someone put something in a “known” hibernation area then that’s different. 
Never say never but the only real treasures to be found in most caves is ancient native American artifacts or fossils.

   

Note that the poisonous gasses was referenced to mines not caves.

The OC Register article expressly noted Silverado Canyon (silver & coal mines) and not Modjeska which was not known for mines of any sort.

Good morning BJ6: You posted,->
's for gold and silver they are highly nonreactive. That’s why when ancient relics are dug out of the ground after thousands of years they are still shiny which is particularly so for gold. They just don’t react with anything, they are stable elements.  I don’t know about contaminants from the smelting process'
~~~~~~~~~~~~.
Ah, err, about Au & AG being non reactive, to a point you are correct, but in the western soils there are many differing chemicals from many different sources which DO react with them under the right conditions.

On the ionic level we have no idea just how much is needed for a visible emanation. It may require an assayers balance to determine the insignificant amount used over years.

Smelted metals do not retain many of the volatile impurities, such as  Hg. As. & Cn. Their level of vaporization is much lower than that of the precious metals.

Don Jose de La Mancha

RDT you said the following, "Ah, err, about Au & AG being non reactive, to a point you are correct, but in the western soils there are many differing chemicals from many different sources which DO react with them under the right conditions."

What specific chemicals in Western soils react with gold and what specific poisoness gas is produced? Gold doesnt react with mild acids or bases. If there are people dying from poisoness gas from digging up gold or silver caches I contend its from manmade chemical put in or pocket of naturally occuring gases and no gas produced from a reaction of gold or silver.

Evening Bg6 my friend:   You posted -->

'What specific chemicals in Western soils react with gold and what specific poisoness gas is produced?'
~~~~~~~~

As for Au, Ag soil reactions, there are the natural Alkali's, Halides, Chlorides,  and Cyanides for starters.

Regarding poisonous gases , no idea there, but not impossible under certain conditions.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Yes Western soils are more mineralized then eastern but all those constituents mentioned are not localized to the West alone. Plus none of the things you mentioned will react with gold to produce a poisonous gas. The most dangerous thing mentioned would be certain cyanide chemicals that can be deadly when mixed with acids. Im more afraid of the bigfoot attacking me then being overtaken by a poisonous gas produced from a reaction with gold. Treasure seekers and public utilities workers alike who die from gas exposure are usually overtaken by the common gases already discussed none of which come from a reaction with gold.

I think the big picture here is that most of these these things have happened to someone over the centuries.
Don't forget that rotting vegetation can produce methane that will sit at the bottom of a well or cave and the like.
Do not rule out that Au and Ag may be catalysts.  If they are (I do not know if they are or aren't) that could cause the ionization phenomenon or potentially some gas without loss of mass.
Platinum is the catalyst in a catalytic converter.
None of this would keep me from concocting a plan when I find my cache.

Go find it
Jeff

Research says,both Silver and Gold act as industrial catalysts.  So there is reason to believe that they could act as catalysts in a natural setting.  Thereby giving credence to poison gas and ionized gasses building up in areas they may not normaly accumulate.

Jeff

Sure, no problem  

There is some other bit of slightly incorrect information here, which I forgot to address:

The biggest thing I woulod worry about in sealed dank places underground, is a little thing called HISTOPLASMOSIS.

Its' a fungus that grows in sealed underground places (sealed mines and vaults for example). When the dirt on the floor is disturbed, it will float around with the dust, and if inhaled, will get into your system. It will come on like a bad case of the flu. If you let it go too long, it is fatal.

If you open up something that has been sealed for a long time, wear a filtered mask.

Best-Mike

Histoplasmosis is real, but the description is not accurate. It is not found in "sealed" places. If something has been air-tight sealed for a long time there are other things to worry about - mainly CO, CO2 and probably some artificially introduced gases.

Histoplasmosis is not caused by dirt, it is a fungus (H. capsulatum) which grows only on bat and bird guano (droppings). The spores get airborne when the conditions are dry. So, if you get in a very dry cave which has a big bat/bird colony inside and you find that by moving you raise dust, wear a dust mask by all means. Usually caves are moist places and this is not a big concern, although there are certain areas in the world where Histoplasmosis is endemic. However, the "trigger" is dust-dry conditions and guano - conditions which are encountered only in very old caves.

If you want to learn more about the disease, which you should, Google it. It is a very nasty thing. But don't get paranoid. Even among cave explorers who do this full time for their whole lives such occurrences are extremely rare. Especially when you have an eye for dry places you can completely avoid it

Geko,

Maybe you might try reading a bit before making statements. I never said that Histo was CAUSED by dirt. For your information, it is not CAUSED by bird or bat droppings (they only exacerbate it). Please read:

On the other hand, fresh bird droppings on surfaces such as sidewalks and windowsills have not been shown to present a health risk for histoplasmosis because birds themselves do not appear to be infected by H. capsulatum.19,63 Rather, bird manure is primarily a nutrient source for the growth of H. capsulatum already present in soil.16 Unlike birds, bats can become infected with H. capsulatum and consequently can excrete the organism in their droppings.16,46,49,64

That quote is from the Center For Disease Control Article about Histo. Here is the link:

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hi97146.html

See, I originally had it explained to me by two Doctors who were also Spelunkers while we were talking treasure hunting. And YES, it does grow in sealed caves and mines (as long as there is dampness inside).

Before trying to oneup somebody, read a bit more than the relevant Wikipedia Listing.

Best-Mike

I think the comment was concerning sealed (air tight) locations not accessible to birds and/or bats. If birds/bats are there pooping...then the cave/mine/whatever is not sealed (air tight). No birds/bats...no Histoplasmosis.

I think the comment was concerning sealed (air tight) locations not accessible to birds and/or bats. If birds/bats are there pooping...then the cave/mine/whatever is not sealed (air tight). No birds/bats...no Histoplasmosis.

If he/she is saying that without Birds/Bats there is no Histoplasmosis, then he/she is mistaken. If you read either the quote I got or the entire article from the CDC about it, you will see that histo is not a product of bird/bat droppings. Histo is already in the soil, it just feeds on bird/bat dropping thereby exacerbating it.

ANYTIME anybody unseals a mine/cave he/she should ALWAYS do three things:

1. Air out the tunnel completely

2. Wear a respirator.

3. Have at least one other person outside for a safety net.

Best-Mike

So most of you feel that there are no such gases that are made from old stacked silver or old stacked gold and that the only gas you would have to worry about is of piled bat guano if its in a cave       So no such metals should break down composition over years or if in contact with other metals / minerals shouldn`t give off any type of harmful fumes or anything that could harm you by any means?

Is there anyway to repel rattlesnakes while your walking , hiking, explorieng so you don`t end up coming across one in your path etc?

Most likely the biggest risk is going to be bacteria and fungi via inhalation.Especially if the site anaerobic in nature.I would think that gases from gold or silver isnt likely. You never know what you are going to find buried or in a cave so you should always take measures and act as if gases are present. Wear proper respirators and air the site out and handled objects with proper gloves just to be safe.

As far as snakes go, wear thick boots and tuck your pants legs into your boots. Snakes will crawl up pants legs on occasion, especially if you are sitting or laying down. Avoid fall logs and rocks with crevices under them. If your headed into heavy snake country, a .410 shotgun will dispatch snakes safely from a distance. It's the best snake repellent I know. 

You can also buy snake shot. Its like a small shotgunshell for handguns. They have it for most calibers. I have seen and used it for .38 and 9mm auto(have to load one at a time willnot usually chamber in auto) Its a little easier than packing a shotgun and do not, repeat, do not just saw the barrel off of the shot gun! Feds went to Ruby Ridge because of that and we all know what happened there.

The Cave down in Branson MO, the park people vent it out for a couple of hours prior to the public entering....lower oxygen level, increase in gases.

Look out for snakes and bats searching caves.  Always have one person stay outside the caves, just in case, something bad happens.

Connecticut  Sam