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Dell, it's not beyond logic that it works for people who have learned. The naysayers can't understand why they can't dowse and chew gum at the same time; why they can't think about it and do it at the same time. That's why I bring up the story about Lot's wife looking back, or make the analogy about looking up after a person has hit a golf ball. You can't have your cake and dowse, too. It's something the naysayers can't overcome. So, in that sense it is beyond logic.

Logic is easy to understand, even easier that understanding dowsing.

An example of logic:  I drop an apple.  Logic tells me that the apple will fall until stopped by another object.  Well, logic and Newton, but I digress.

Another logical example: I look at a clock and see it's 3 pm.  If I look away for several minutes and look back, it's logical to believe that it will no longer be 3 pm.  If it is still 3 pm when I look back, then the logical answer would be that the clock has stopped. 

It would be illogical to assume I stopped time with my mind, which is the direction some dowsers take when searching for a solution to a problem.

[eyes]

A simple  analogy. What's the logic behind being unable to keep yours open when you sneeze?  Dell

I'm assuming you meant to ask "what's the logic behind being unable to keep your eyes open when you sneeze?"

If that was your question, there is logic behind it, but try this instead: "Where does logic come into play in the belief that buried gold emits some kind of signal?"

  "Where does logic come into play in the belief that buried gold emits some kind of signal"
                 http:science.howstuffworks.com/periodic-table1.htm
 
 Af, check here in the last paragraph 1911, frequencies of x-rays, and how each element has it's own unique frequency..

 Logic suggests that Gold has it's own unique frequency also.. Well wouldn't that be considered "some kind of signal"? Frequencies can be read, and created..

  "Where does logic come into play in the belief that buried gold emits some kind of signal"
                 http:science.howstuffworks.com/periodic-table1.htm
 
 Af, check here in the last paragraph 1911, frequencies of x-rays, and how each element has it's own unique frequency..

 Logic suggests that Gold has it's own unique frequency also.. Well wouldn't that be considered "some kind of signal"? Frequencies can be read, and created..

An excellent thought, but you have to take this into context as well:

­In 1911, English chemist Henry Moseley studied the frequencies of X-rays given off by various elements when high-energy electrons bombarded each.

This does prove that gold will produce a unique x-ray frequency when being struck by high-energy electrons, but this isn't a constant state.  This is a situation that has to be created, rather that what you would find in a natural setting.

Interesting article, btw.

Just a quick question, in regards to gold having its own unique frequency...how is that information used (or processed) by the use of cheap, inexpensive L-rods? These frequencies only seem obtainable in laboratory settings, I believe.
[/quote]
   
  I use Element to locate Element, the L-rods are used to indicate an anomoly, in this case my anomoly is an invisible frequency line joined by my signaling element and the element i'm looking for..
  Machines are on the market that create the molecular frequency needed to create the connection  causing a dowsable line.. But are not required.
  I found that elements are allways on, so to say, they are continually generating their own unique frequency, and for some reason they not only generate their frequency, they also recieve their frequency, making a dowsable connection..
  A machine might make a stronger signal than if i were using a peice of element to signal with, UNLESS the element i'm using to signal with is larger, thus creating a more powerful frequency line than the machine can generate. 
 

I am having a rough time getting this posted, this is my third attempt and I hope it works.

Is dowsing logical at times and at times shows no logic? 

Years back a coworker and I tried to dowse a lost pipe.  My coworker carried dowsing rods in his vehicle and as the people who were working to tie in to the pipe had tried to locate the pipe using back hoe he wanted to try his rods on it.  I have never had much using rods but I agreed to help him.  My co woker dowsed where records said that the pipe should be an got a hit.  He marked the first hit and a second and then asked me to try the rods.  I took the rods and walked at a right angle to where we thought the pipe should be and got a strong signal now I was thinking that I was letting where my coworker had marked influence me so I tied it a second time but with a death grip on the rods.  I again walked 90 degres to where we thought the pipe should be and this time I was not going to let the rods swing.  Well those rods just about took the skin off my hands but they turned.  We thought that we had found the lost pipe but when it was excavated-- no pipe. 

As I said before I have had limited if not marginal success using rods but I have never had them twist in my hand like they did that day.

I am left sitting on the fence where dowsing rod are concerned.  If the rods work where there is nothing to find is this not illogical or is it some force I don't know about.  I would like to hear if anyone else has been through what I experienced.


j.n.

"I am left sitting on the fence where dowsing rod are concerned.  If the rods work where there is nothing to find is this not illogical or is it some force I don't know about.  I would like to hear if anyone else has been through what I experienced. "


j.n.,, The rods were working fine, and they did signal on something, but knowing what they signaled on, is best a mystery never solved.. It could be they signaled on water, or some subteranian crack, or change in density anomoly, or it was a molecular conection line between elements.. If you were near a house, with all the iron, copper, aluminum, ect., connection lines go out in all direction, to the vehicles parked nearby, toward the barn, or even something far away, which if it's far, your line will reach for the distant element, only to peter off and show dowsable connection again once you near the othr end signal strength..

Just a quick question, in regards to gold having its own unique frequency...how is that information used (or processed) by the use of cheap, inexpensive L-rods? These frequencies only seem obtainable in laboratory settings, I believe.

   
  I use Element to locate Element, the L-rods are used to indicate an anomoly, in this case my anomoly is an invisible frequency line joined by my signaling element and the element i'm looking for..
  Machines are on the market that create the molecular frequency needed to create the connection  causing a dowsable line.. But are not required.
  I found that elements are allways on, so to say, they are continually generating their own unique frequency, and for some reason they not only generate their frequency, they also recieve their frequency, making a dowsable connection..
  A machine might make a stronger signal than if i were using a peice of element to signal with, UNLESS the element i'm using to signal with is larger, thus creating a more powerful frequency line than the machine can generate. 
 
[/quote]
The way you've explained this does make some sense, but I'm having trouble understanding what would cause elements to generate a frequency.  Is this caused by some outside force?  Are the elements generating the frequency themselves?  If so, how?

The way you've explained this does make some sense, but I'm having trouble understanding what would cause elements to generate a frequency.  Is this caused by some outside force?  Are the elements generating the frequency themselves?  If so, how?

Perhaps it's a definitive mis-wording, but I understand what he is talking about.

Chemical Elements resonate at a specific frequency, or a sub-harmonic of that frequency.  When electronic Frequencies are broadcast to establish harmonics with a target =  (MFD) Molecular Frequency Discrimination

 "LIKE"  Chemical Elements resonate at the same frequency. When "like" elements are placed in close proximity of each other harmonics occur naturally between the "like" elements. No electronics necessary. = (HID) Harmonic Induction Discrimination.

This is as far as I am going in explaining this to you. In both cases the Rod(s) are used in a PHYSICS application, and NOT within the generally accepted definition of "DOWSING".  Tools, and methods for physics applications are not permitted to be discussed on TNET.

If you are  only using your Mind and a simple tool to mentally Discriminate, and locate buried targets, that is defined as DOWSING.

Many of us are using mechanical Discrimination methods in a physics application when we search in the field.  Since this is NOT PERMITTED to be discussed on TNET, without threat of being banned,  we are relegated to using  code words MENTAL DOWSING (mental), or PHYSICAL DOWSING, (physics) so that folks will understand the method we are using.

I know this is an infringement on forum rules, but extremist Skeptics, insist on forcing the discussions in the Physics direction to  detract viewers of this forum.        Dell

Well, I'm actually hoping to discuss the applications of this resonance in relation to simple tools, i.e. dowsing rods.

I understand when folks talk about loading their rods with certain minerals that they claim helps them find only that particular mineral, but in your statement above you said that like minerals in close proximity to each other harmonics will occur naturally.  How does this work in the situation of a loaded dowsing rod and a gold coin, say, 20 feet away?  Surely this isn't considered close proximity?

we know that metal detectors "find" or detect metals --- via the interaction of the electical feild they produce "interacting" with the "conductive" metals in the ground -- the interaction / reaction between the metal and the feild is how the machine tells "what" it found and how deep it is. -- it using computer chips "figgers" out  what it "thinks" it found.

we know that the human body produces a faint electrical feild -- arua type photographs show that feild * ---the rods are made of copper / brass -- a "conductive" metal-- so the metal item in the ground "interacts" with the "human detector" and the "feild" it produces via the rods .

its a well known fact that sharks can detect faint electrical feilds put out by prey to hunt them down with . --- many humans are often "highly sensitive" to  differant things --sounds --smells -- touch --- some people senses are more highly developed or "touchier" than that of  others --- these folks are naturally more naturally "talented" or "gifted" than the adverage person would be---thus they are "sensitive" to these feilds.  

its a little understood crossover science -- the blending of  mind / body energy  and "known" or "proven" science together 

we know that metal detectors "find" or detect metals --- via the interaction of the electical feild they produce "interacting" with the "conductive" metals in the ground -- the interaction / reaction between the metal and the feild is how the machine tells "what" it found and how deep it is. -- it using computer chips "figgers" out  what it "thinks" it found.

we know that the human body produces a faint electrical feild -- arua type photographs show that feild * ---the rods are made of copper / brass -- a "conductive" metal-- so the metal item in the ground "interacts" with the "human detector" and the "feild" it produces via the rods .

its a well known fact that sharks can detect faint electrical feilds put out by prey to hunt them down with . --- many humans are often "highly sensitive" to  differant things --sounds --smells -- touch --- some people senses are more highly developed or "touchier" than that of  others --- these folks are naturally more naturally "talented" or "gifted" than the adverage person would be---thus they are "sensitive" to these feilds.  

its a little understood crossover science -- the blending of  mind / body energy  and "known" or "proven" science together 

Therein lies the flaw, however.  A detector can put off very large impulses when searching for metals, even through air I can pick up a vehicle wheel at 3 plus feet, if not further.  But the human body's impulses are tiny compared to the field produced by a detector.  Even when applied to a brass or copper rod, how do you explain these small impulses flying many feet through the air, and then returning as well?  And don't forget that a detector is specific-built for this purpose.

And as far as the shark portion goes, it's also known that the shark has the greatest known ability of a living being to track using electrical impulses.  To compare this sense to that of a human is akin to comparing the ability to fly between sparrows and 747's.  Sure, both objects have the ability to soar through the air, but it is only with much more force that a plane can accomplish this feat. This doesn't mean that both can accomplish this task equally well.

And also remember that the shark has the added bonus of perceiving these impulses while traveling through salt water, a far better conductor than air.

Also, your third paragraph seems to indicate that only folks with these "special" abilities can dowse, whereas most of your comrades say anyone can dowse with practice.  Is there a right answer to that conundrum?

no my thrird paragraph is to mean that some people are more "naturally" gifted than others so it comes easier for them --while others can learn they being less "naturally" attuned -- will have to "work" at it and thus become more attuned to "listening" to the impluses of their bodies --thus developing their "feel" for it .

there are many things both about the human body and the human mind that modern science is still at a loss to fully and completely  explain.

Elements in a magnetic field cause Cathode rays to be deflected or moved, Cathode rays are called Electrons, the basic part of all Atoms..

If the Earth is in a constant magnetic field, then all Elements are being bombarded by Electrons, and that creates the frequency., that's my best guess..

So the Dowsing Forum doesn't allow discussion of dowsing rods, i.e; simple or inexpensive devices?  When did that happen? 

\

TNET doesn't allow discussion about my simple, inexpensive devices. 

Just contact Marc, and get permission to start  an LRL forum, if you want to discuss using L-Rods for physics applications .  Don't argue, or question me about it. It's not my forums,    Dell

I asked a question about dowsing rods. 

Once again, simple bent rods, that's the thrust of my question. 

"Light is made up of a stream of energy packets called photons" Einstein

"Modern physicists believe light can behave as both a particle and a wave"

"A light wave consists of energy in the form of electric and magnetic fields, referred to as electromagnetic radiation, the fields vibrate at right angles to the direction of movement of the wave, and at right angles to each other."

"Light waves come in a continuous variety of sizes, frequencies, and energies. Light is made up of a collection of one or more photons, propagating through space as electromagnetic waves"

"If a atom is energized it's electrons move to a higher orbit. A photon is produced whenever an electron in a higher-than-normal orbit falls back to it's original orbit. A photon has a frequency, or color, that exactly matches the distance of the electron falls."

"Refraction occurs when the energy of an incoming light wave matches the natural vibration frequency of the electrons in a material. The light wave penetrates deeply into the material, and causes small vibrations in the electrons. The electrons pass these vibrations on to the atoms in the material, and they send out light waves of the same frequency as the incoming wave."

Maybee this will help explain some.

"Light is made up of a stream of energy packets called photons" Einstein

"Modern physicists believe light can behave as both a particle and a wave"

"A light wave consists of energy in the form of electric and magnetic fields, referred to as electromagnetic radiation, the fields vibrate at right angles to the direction of movement of the wave, and at right angles to each other."

"Light waves come in a continuous variety of sizes, frequencies, and energies. Light is made up of a collection of one or more photons, propagating through space as electromagnetic waves"

"If a atom is energized it's electrons move to a higher orbit. A photon is produced whenever an electron in a higher-than-normal orbit falls back to it's original orbit. A photon has a frequency, or color, that exactly matches the distance of the electron falls."

"Refraction occurs when the energy of an incoming light wave matches the natural vibration frequency of the electrons in a material. The light wave penetrates deeply into the material, and causes small vibrations in the electrons. The electrons pass these vibrations on to the atoms in the material, and they send out light waves of the same frequency as the incoming wave."

Maybee this will help explain some.

Light travel does explain a portion of the resonance theory, but how far does light really penetrate under the surface of the Earth?  I'm still not entirely convinced that the vibrations from light waves would travel deeply enough into the ground to excite a gold molecule to a state it would create a detectable signal.

in the super collider they ram electrons at one another at vast speeds  to do a mini "big bang"-- some of the effected electrons that break away are measured on the other side of the world --and are moving so fast they litterly pass thru the whole of the earth --- so yes "rays" can pass thru the earth not lightbeam  as we think of it --but basically like a invisible form of a beam (like a x  ray is a invisible energy beam ).

the earth is constantly being bombard by radation and unseen energy beams ( like x rays and such) from space , lucky for us the ozone layer and other things tends to protect us from it.

in the super collider they ram electrons at one another at vast speeds  to do a mini "big bang"-- some of the effected electrons that break away are measured on the other side of the world --and are moving so fast they litterly pass thru the whole of the earth --- so yes "rays" can pass thru the earth not lightbeam  as we think of it --but basically like a invisible form of a beam (like a x  ray is a invisible energy beam ).

the earth is constantly being bombard by radation and unseen energy beams ( like x rays and such) from space , lucky for us the ozone layer and other things tends to protect us from it.

You're right the Earth is mostly protected from the radiation et. al. from space and the Sun, but in your first example the electrons traveling at such a speed as to pass straight through the Earth, doesn't apply here.

Those particles were whipped up to that speed artifically, in the collider, the same as the impulses from a detector are created solely for the purpose of traveling through solid ground to reach a metal object.  These aren't naturally occurrring in either case, as you claim is occurring when the gold in the ground is resonating to such a degree it can be detected by human senses.

How do you know that? Dell

Sorry, are you directing that question at me?

This thread has been highjacked. To get back on topic, a person cannot use logic to dowse. That is not dowsing. It's the same with non-voluntary bodily functions. Sure, a few Yogis can regulate their internal organs, and various other functions, but even this is not done through logic.

It's the same thing with a mental witness. You've probably heard a few people say they chant "gold, gold, gold when they dowse. This is a mistake.

There's been no hijacking taking place, Mike.  This discussion still very much revolves around logic and it's correlation to dowsing.  If you'll recall, your friend Dell is the first to disagree with your initial statement, so you may wish to direct hijacking complaints towards him.

People use logic in every aspect of their lives, every day, Mike.  To say you shouldn't apply logic to any particular thing is insane.  It's those people that don't employ logic that end up getting themselves tangled up in really stupid situations, like falling out of a plane with no chute or getting their Prius stuck in foot deep mud.

man can not do what nature hasn't already done before --the super collider is a "mini" verison of the ideal of the "big bang" --some thing that "nuture" has already done according to science * --there are this very day "totally naturally made" things that go thru the earth that are totally unrelated to the the super collider and its operation --- these are the things that could "exicte" the elements "gold" for exsample --these types of matters are often too "deep" (read technical) or "boring" to the adverage "normal" person to deal with trying to understand them --- but for some folks these thoughts and ideals are very interesting --I am not the "adverage" person as I find thinking about such thing very interesting indeed.

the term we call "logic" is often "trapped" into meaning only known or "proven" Ideals --thus "dead" knowledge --- fresh new knowledge is often gained by applying older known "knowledge" to unknown problems in a attempt to "unlock" additional knowledge and make new theory's and even more inventions --- like electrical power and its transmisson had to be mastered before light bulbs became everyday useful items --- the one invention and discovery made the other viaible and doible .

man can not do what nature hasn't already done before --the super collider is a "mini" verison of the ideal of the "big bang" --some thing that "nuture" has already done according to science * --there are this very day "totally naturally made" things that go thru the earth that are totally unrelated to the the super collider and its operation --- these are the things that could "exicte" the elements "gold" for exsample --these types of matters are often too "deep" (read technical) or "boring" to the adverage "normal" person to deal with trying to understand them --- but for some folks these thoughts and ideals are very interesting --I am not the "adverage" person as I find thinking about such thing very interesting indeed.

the term we call "logic" is often "trapped" into meaning only known or "proven" Ideals --thus "dead" knowledge --- fresh new knowledge is often gained by applying older known "knowledge" to unknown problems in a attempt to "unlock" additional knowledge and make new theory's and even more inventions --- like electrical power and its transmisson had to be mastered before light bulbs became everyday useful items --- the one invention and discovery made the other viaible and doible .

What "totally natural things" are you referring to, Ivan?  Surely you're not trying to reference dark matter?  And you're not referring to light or sound waves, a couple of the things that have been referenced here already.  Radiation, perhaps, gamma?  Not microwaves, they're far too large.

Almost anything you choose, however, aren't constants, meaning you can't count on their presence at any time you choose to go dowsing.  Nor can you count on any particular wave/source/etc. to be actively striking and exciting a gold molecule.  Even if you were able to accurately predict the path of such a force to allow you to dowse, and then somehow use these excited molecules to track a path to a piece of gold, it will rarely be the only piece of gold in any given area, and one can assume all gold in that space will be reacting similarly.

the stuff I am refering to is the type of matter that the super collider makes --it exist in nature naturally . --- sort of like  the way "background radation" naturally exists in nature -- thats why gieger counters have to be "calibrated"to ignore the "constant" or " background radation" and only pick up the higher or "excessive" level radation .

or the way you ground "balance" a detector to not "see" the high minerals in a area as metal ---by resetting what is the "normal" mineral or background level --thus blinding it to those excessive minerals .

the stuff I am refering to is the type of matter that the super collider makes --it exist in nature naturally . --- sort of like  the way "background radation" naturally exists in nature -- thats why gieger counters have to be "calibrated"to ignore the "constant" or " background radation" and only pick up the higher or "excessive" level radation .

or the way you ground "balance" a detector to not "see" the high minerals in a area as metal ---by resetting what is the "normal" mineral or background level --thus blinding it to those excessive minerals .

I can understand the chatter with the background radiation you're referring to.  The Earth is positively teeming with it, but in low levels for the most part.  Is this what's causing the excitement in the gold molecules?

I'm not sure exactly what might be doing it  by I do know that there are many things out there capible of possibly doing it -- so the basic theory behind it seems to be valid --that something could be exciting gold causing it to emit freqs --- we know there are freqs beyond the "range" of human hearing ---we do not "hear" them as such because of this but we still know thru various scientific methods  that they "exist" ---now "general" logic of our 5 senses --tells us the if we can not see, smell, hear, taste or touch/feel  something that it in effect doesn't "exist" --- by via our "sixth" sense --our intellect we are able to uncover what the other 5 "normal" senses say doesn't exist.--- this is "counter" to our standard 5 senses or "natural logic"--- but if one understands about science it makes perfect science "logic"

I'm not sure exactly what might be doing it  by I do know that there are many things out there capible of possibly doing it -- so the basic theory behind it seems to be valid --that something could be exciting gold causing it to emit freqs --- we know there are freqs beyond the "range" of human hearing ---we do not "hear" them as such because of this but we still know thru various scientific methods  that they "exist" ---now "general" logic of our 5 senses --tells us the if we can not see, smell, hear, taste or touch/feel  something that it in effect doesn't "exist" --- by via our "sixth" sense --our intellect we are able to uncover what the other 5 "normal" senses say doesn't exist.--- this is "counter" to our standard 5 senses or "natural logic"--- but if one understands about science it makes perfect science "logic"

Intersting theory, but you seem to be using rather circular logic. 

If I can't see/hear/smell/taste/feel something, but I think it exists, it must exist?  Less logic, more assumption, it seems.

The basic theory seems valid, I won't argue with you there, but a big issue is apparent when you start really looking into the theory.  It's nice to say that there's something out there that excites the gold molecules to a point they create a frequency that can then be detected by a pair of dowsing rods held by a human, but it's a big leap. 

If the science behind the theory were sound, then it could be applied in so many important ways that the dowsing element would be overshadowed completely.  If gold molecules can be excited, then why can't something living be tracked using the same science?  But we still use heat-sensitive equipment and dogs to locate survivors of earthquakes.  It could be used to detect drugs hidden away in vehicles or people at border crossings, but it's not.

The question then, if it works as you're describing, is why?  Why is it not employed it these many ways that would be much more beneficial to the human populace?

what science and inventions are "availible" to the general public is often "controlled" by wealthy and politically powerful folks that benefit from "properly" timed releases of technology --- if they do not control or own the technology and can't not enrich themselves off it --they block it -- until they do have "control" over it -- ( would you buy a 8 track player if you knew cassettes were coming out very soon?-- of course not --so they stall it until they are ready to phaze in the "new product"---since the same companies that made the one often make the "new" product as well.

we know "sound waves" which are simply freq --can excite glass molicules to the point that it can shatter a glass ala the "ella fitzgerald"  is it live or is it memorex ad. --- its simply a matter of what is the freq and how much power has to be "pushed" to excite the gold molicules and what occurs when they are excited.

what science and inventions are "availible" to the general public is often "controlled" by wealthy and politically powerful folks that benefit from "properly" timed releases of technology --- if they do not control or own the technology and can't not enrich themselves off it --they block it -- until they do have "control" over it -- ( would you buy a 8 track player if you knew cassettes were coming out very soon?-- of course not --so they stall it until they are ready to phaze in the "new product"---since the same companies that made the one often make the "new" product as well.

we know "sound waves" which are simply freq --can excite glass molicules to the point that it can shatter a glass ala the "ella fitzgerald"  is it live or is it memorex ad. --- its simply a matter of what is the freq and how much power has to be "pushed" to excite the gold molicules and what occurs when they are excited.

What would be the point behind hiding a technology like this?  Especially at this time of massive government spending and war involvement?  We've taken another big leap into conspiracy theories now, and it's a totally new path.  And, as far as technology goes, since there's no prerequisite for this type of technology, there'd be no point in hiding it to wait till some older tech is outmoded.

As far as the shattering glass goes, I believe it's the air molecules around the glass that vibrate the glass to the breaking point, rather than the glass molecules themselves vibrating.  No matter though, since the desired result, whether glass or gold, is the same, to make the object move in some way.

But you're wrong when you say it's only a matter of the frequency and the amount of power which has to be pushed, because there is also a reception issue to look at.  Even if the right frequency and power has been somehow generated, how does a brass dowsing rod "read" this molecular excitement with enough strength to physically move itself into the desired direction?

ah the brass / copper  "rods" work by a differant type of method  --in my point of view --- I thought were were merely chatting about could gold be excited to the point they could be found via a machine * --similar in some ways to the way a modern metal detector's electrical feild thats generated under its coil "reacts" with the gold --- its well know that higher freq levels are better suited for finding gold --specialized "natural gold" & nugget hunting detectors are set up to run at much higher freq than general all purpose detectors are. --- I can not help but wonder at what freq range and power output level would gold be come "exited" --and what the results of that would be. --

as far as the rods being "drawn" or moved --if held properly they will swing freely with no "drag" to fight --thus they can easily move----- ever see static electric energy jump from a person to a metal Object --like a door knob ? --the electrical energy built up is in efect seeking a metallic point of discharge ---thus the "snap" as it does so --it jumps from person to metal --the electrical energy in the human body is also drawn to metal -- and via the "conductive " rods  it seeks a point of discharge -(thus turning the rods in the direct of the nearby metals as it seeks out a point of discharge) -- thus it finds the "nearby" metals its "drawn" towards it  -- similar to the way a maget is drawn towards iron ---- (place a u shaped maget on its side near iron and watch it -- turn and point towards it )---  the feilds of magnatism and electric are closely interrelated to one another.

ah the brass / copper  "rods" work by a differant type of method  --in my point of view --- I thought were were merely chatting about could gold be excited to the point they could be found via a machine * --similar in some ways to the way a modern metal detector's electrical feild thats generated under its coil "reacts" with the gold --- its well know that higher freq levels are better suited for finding gold --specialized "natural gold" & nugget hunting detectors are set up to run at much higher freq than general all purpose detectors are. --- I can not help but wonder at what freq range and power output level would gold be come "exited" --and what the results of that would be. --

Sorry Ivan!  That's my fault, I should have been more clear. Now, I can agree with you that perhaps a machine could be developed to detect a frequency generated by a bit of gold.  It'd have to be almighty powerful, and probably filled with electronics that haven't been prefected yet, but I don't doubt it'll someday hit the market.

as far as the rods being "drawn" or moved --if held properly they will swing freely with no "drag" to fight --thus they can easily move----- ever see static electric energy jump from a person to a metal Object --like a door knob ? --the electrical energy built up is in efect seeking a metallic point of discharge ---thus the "snap" as it does so --it jumps from person to metal --the electrical energy in the human body is also drawn to metal -- and via the "conductive " rods  it seeks a point of discharge -(thus turning the rods in the direct of the nearby metals as it seeks out a point of discharge) -- thus it finds the "nearby" metals its "drawn" towards it  -- similar to the way a maget is drawn towards iron ---- (place a u shaped maget on its side near iron and watch it -- turn and point towards it )---  the feilds of magnatism and electric are closely interrelated to one another.

As far as I'm concerned, you've got all the right ideas here; electric charges seeing a place to ground, magnetisim and electronics being related.  No arguments there at all.

What I'm most curious about is, even if the body's electric charge is stong enough to be conducted down to the tip of a dowsing rod, it still wouldn't be strong enough to leave that point unless you held the rod very close to another metal object.  Think about the carpet and the doorknob.  You won't feel a shock if you stand on the other side of a room and reach toward a doorknob, no matter how much static charge you've built up.  The span a static charge can jump is limited by a number of things; humidity, materials, distance, etc.  Even magnetisim couldn't explain a long distance jump in little more than a strong static charge through the air, as I assume the "signal" must travel between the dowsing rod and the treasure?

Not to mention that brass and copper are non-magnetic, though they do conduct electricity well.

the electric impluse in the human body seeking a discharge point -- via the highly conductibe rods --- once nearby metal is detected -- causes them to turns in the direction towards the metal--- once over it as one starts to go over it it goes straight "across" causing the rods to cross since --as you walk over it the rods would "naturally" go towards it -- if it was directly behind you the rods would press to your chest in a effort to point  their ends "towards" it behind you . --thus the rods cross as you "go" over the item. X matks the spot.

the electric impluse in the human body seeking a discharge point -- via the highly conductibe rods --- once nearby metal is detected -- causes them to turns in the direction towards the metal--- once over it as one starts to go over it it goes straight "across" causing the rods to cross since --as you walk over it the rods would "naturally" go towards it -- if it was directly behind you the rods would press to your chest in a effort to point  their ends "towards" it behind you . --thus the rods cross as you "go" over the item. X matks the spot.

Okay, just so I understand; the electricity generated by the human body travels through the arms and hands into the rods, and from there it goes...??

With all due respect, an electric charge entering a brass rod won't generate movement of any kind.  Think about it like this.  Overhead power lines are positively thrumming with electricity, far more than could ever be generated by a human body, yet they just hang there, no movement except with what is caused by a breeze.  Power cords, for lamps, etc?  Same thing.  No movement, no matter how many of them you carry or how many times they cross. 

The energy in the rods is of coure a real thing, but other than dropping back into the hand, it's not going to shoot out then end of the rod unless you get it very close to another metal object, but even then I don't see how it would move at all, unless moved by the hand holding it.

Also, how would the rod detect any metal underfoot in the first place?  A brass rod isn't transformed into something else simply by carrying a small charge. 

So, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I can tell, dowsing is the use of a rod with a small charge moving toward a piece of metal it has detected?  But from what I'm aware, a charged piece of metal won't move on it's own, nor does it seem to be turned into any kind of detector because it's been electrified.

in a open circuit --the discharge point is completing the circuit -- thus giving it some where to go.--- electric energy wants to go "places" --not sit still  --- while normally speaking the human body is thought of as a closed curcuit there is excess energy still . ---

overhead power lines are "shielded" with coatings that dampen their interaction --yet we still often have troulble with our detectors due to the "bleed off" of EMF from them messing up our detectors "electric feild" under its coil

around high power lines --one can "feel" the energy litterly "crackle" thru the air --- while the amount is faint in the human body it is there -- and much the way a shark "sniffs" out its prey via electrical impluses --a proper "attuned" human in a similar type manner  -- sniffs out its prey (metals) as well .

in a open circuit --the discharge point is completing the circuit -- thus giving it some where to go.--- electric energy wants to go "places" --not sit still  --- while normally speaking the human body is thought of as a closed curcuit there is excess energy still . ---

You are right that the electricity can exit the tip of the dowsing rod in an attempt to complete a circuit, but the amount of electricity we're speaking about here is negligible, and certainly not powerful enough to travel long distances.  So if the excess electricity the human body generates is what you're thinking is going to excite the gold molecules, the gold would have to be in the immediate vicinity of the tip of the rod.  Even gold at your feet would be too far away to allow the electricity to close the circuit.

overhead power lines are "shielded" with coatings that dampen their interaction --yet we still often have troulble with our detectors due to the "bleed off" of EMF from them messing up our detectors "electric feild" under its coil

around high power lines --one can "feel" the energy litterly "crackle" thru the air --- while the amount is faint in the human body it is there -- and much the way a shark "sniffs" out its prey via electrical impluses --a proper "attuned" human in a similar type manner  -- sniffs out its prey (metals) as well .

Right again.  Actually, there's a great old rowhouse here in town I would love to hunt, but it's settled underneath a pair of massive transformers, and all I can manage is chatter anywhere near the place.  But, my comments relating to the power lines were that the electricity inside them doesn't cause them to move.  Along with the power cords I brought up.  You seemed to claim that the electricity bleeing off the human body runs into the rods, which then turn to point towards your target, but if that's the basis for your claim, then surely other items loaded with electricity should move as well, like the rods?

thats my general thought as to how it baically works in theory -- now the exact way it operates ? is bit beyond me at this time.

thats my general thought as to how it baically works in theory -- now the exact way it operates ? is bit beyond me at this time.

And I appreciate you time and explanations.  I really wish there was a device, a tool of some sort, that could physically show the connection between dowsing rods and the target, if it exists.

FACT:  A harmonic signal line running under high tension power lines can no longer be detected  with hand held Copper/Brass L-Rods within 15-20 feet of the power lines. The signal line can be detected and traced again 15-20 feet the other side of the high tension power lines.  Dell

Okay, so high tension lines can't be found with a pair of rods when you're nearby them.  Thanks for your input, Dell!

But, unlike Ivan, you believe signal lines are the key to dowsing.  And, if I'm not mistaken, signal lines emanate away from a target and are detected by the rods?

Af, you are mistaken, and nothing you repeated that I supposedly said, or what you said I believe, is correct.
If you can't accept it as it is posted, then don't reply.   Dell

But if I said what you though you said is what that guy said was wrong, then the guy talking about what he said about his beliefs would be right, based on String Theory.......

Dell, you told us "A harmonic signal line running under high tension power lines can no longer be detected  with hand held Copper/Brass L-Rods within 15-20 feet of the power lines."  And I said that high tension lines can't be found with a pair of rods when you're near them.

You're right, I said the lines themselves couldn't be found, and you said it was the signal lines that couldn't be found.

I think the man made massive excess emf type energy that bleeds off the power lines screws up the "natural" signal lines much like it messes up a metal detectors "electrical feild" under itheir coil blocking them from being used too close near them --- a form of "overload" if you will.

FACT:  A harmonic signal line running under high tension power lines can no longer be detected  with hand held Copper/Brass L-Rods within 15-20 feet of the power lines. The signal line can be detected and traced again 15-20 feet the other side of the high tension power lines.  Dell

Okay, so high tension lines can't be found with a pair of rods when you're nearby them.  Thanks for your input, Dell!

But, unlike Ivan, you believe signal lines are the key to dowsing. And, if I'm not mistaken, signal lines emanate away from a target and are detected by the rods?

Af, you are mistaken, and nothing you repeated that I supposedly said, or what you said I believe, is correct.
If you can't accept it as it is posted, then don't reply.  But as the expression says, " If the shoe fits, wear it." Dell


But if I said what you though you said is what that guy said was wrong, then the guy talking about what he said about his beliefs would be right, based on String Theory.......

Dell, you told us "A harmonic signal line running under high tension power lines can no longer be detected  with hand held Copper/Brass L-Rods within 15-20 feet of the power lines."  And I said that high tension lines can't be found with a pair of rods when you're near them.

You're right, I said the lines themselves couldn't be found, and you said it was the signal lines that couldn't be found.  Is that what you're making all this fuss over?  Seriously?  Grow up, Dell.....

You know, it's really funny.  For as much as you call me a troll and a troublemaker, Ivan, SWR and I had a nice conversation going until you decided to chime in......

But, unlike Ivan, you believe signal lines are the key to dowsing.  And, if I'm not mistaken, signal lines emanate away from a target and are detected by the rods?

Af, you can stop your BS at any time.

I do NOT believe Signal lines are the key to Dowsing.  Yes , again you are  intentionally mistaken about Signal lines.

Your discussions are physics related to the physics application use of  L-Rod(s) to meter signal lines. 

THAT IS NOT TRUE DOWSING. Dowsing is considered in the category of Meta-Physics. Map, Photo, Information Dowsing, psychic, mental target discrimination, ideomotor response, etc.

FYI, I related a  physics FACT, in accordance with your discussion. I'm sorry  being factual disturbs you. Quit trying to change fact, and truth with illogical logic. Get used to it, and accept my posts exactly as they are written and stop twisting what I say just to fill up space on this board and create argument.

I have never called you a "troll", or a "troublemaker". That is a lie!   But, as the expression goes, "If the shoe fits, wear it".  Dell

So full of anger, aren't you little man??

Okay, let's play your game for awhile.
I do NOT believe Signal lines are the key to Dowsing.  Yes , again you are  intentionally mistaken about Signal lines.

Your discussions are physics related to the physics application use of  L-Rod(s) to meter signal lines. 

THAT IS NOT TRUE DOWSING. Dowsing is considered in the category of Meta-Physics. Map, Photo, Information Dowsing, psychic, mental target discrimination, ideomotor response, etc.
No one brought up signal lines in this discussion till you did, Dell.  Do you really not understand this?

Perhaps if you have such a problem with what is being discussed here, you should begin your own thread and invite users to post there.  Honestly, you've added nothing at all to this discussion.

FYI, I related a  physics FACT, in accordance with your discussion. I'm sorry  being factual disturbs you. Quit trying to change fact, and truth with illogical logic. Get used to it, and accept my posts exactly as they are written and stop twisting what I say just to fill up space on this board and create argument.
Again, no one was arguing here till you started it, Dell.

But, okay, let's see.

So, in you head, signal lines are a fact, right?  And harmonic signal lines coming off of power lines are also factual?  But if you're far away you can't find those signal lines from the power lines with rods, and this to you is the only true dowsing?

And to say you've never called me a troublemaker???.....Dell.......honestly man.....  Who's the liar here??

gentlemen please --- being able to disagree about various subjects without being disagreeible to one another and stooping to crass personal attacks is the mark of a well developed mind -- (act like the grown ups that you both are please)-- keep it civil ---as per "rules"

plus as a great spokesman (mark twain) once said ---"the rule is perfect : in all matters of opinion -- my adversaries are insane."

So, in you head, signal lines are a fact, right?  And harmonic signal lines coming off of power lines are also factual?  But if you're far away you can't find those signal lines from the power lines with rods, and this to you is the only true dowsing?

  Of course, it's easy enough for any intelligent to read my posts to see this is not at all what I said.

In Af's case, I'll have to agree with Mark Twain.  Dell

Since your opinion of me is that I have a low intelligence level (you're a fan of Twain, Dell?) please explain, in plain English, what your theory of signal lines consists of.  Please do not resort to your typical responses such as "You don't want to learn anything," or "It's too complicated for you to understand," or "I've explained this before." 

If you're capable of explaining this theory, then you're capable of explaining it is a fashion that is plainly understandable, so as not to generate questions or requests for later explanations.

A signal line as I know it is if you have a mental hit from a few yards away and it may be in an awkward position and the target is being picked up at an awkward unusable angle. As you are not standing over the underground target but by obtaining a mental hit from another approach and by obtaining a mental X from 2 directions, a direct position can easily be  obtained.
No different to long range bombing in cloudy conditions in WW2 or me trying to pinpoint a target under a low wide spreading bush which is  Jesuit favorite setup.
Max

A signal line as I know it is if you have a mental hit from a few yards away and it may be in an awkward position and the target is being picked up at an awkward unusable angle. As you are not standing over the underground target but by obtaining a mental hit from another approach and by obtaining a mental X from 2 directions, a direct position can easily be  obtained.
No different to long range bombing in cloudy conditions in WW2 or me trying to pinpoint a target under a low wide spreading bush which is  Jesuit favorite setup.
Max

Are the signal lines you speak of visible in any way?

I'm saying IF (and thats a big IF) one believes in the "signal line theory" * that faint amounts of energy are given off  by "natural objects" and are thus in some way detectible ( the theory of which you clearly do not "believe" is possible )--that the "known" high energy levels given off by bleed off from "high power lines" could in theory mess with the faint "natural signal lines"--- thats all---  I 'm not trying to  prove or disprove the existance of said "naturail signal ines" ---just saying IF they do exist --it would be easy to understand how high powerlines "could" easily mess em up in theory at least.

signal lines being of faint energy would not be visable --but radio and tv signals aren't "visible" either --but we know that they exist .--- crystal radios used natural crystals

Hey Ivan….Signal lines are also a mystery to me. I know every thing I need to use them. I know where to find them. I know how to follow them. I also know where and what is emitting them. I don’t have to be a rocket scientist  to use them for my gain. I guess it is just so simple that some people will never get it…Art

I'm saying IF (and thats a big IF) one believes in the "signal line theory" * that faint amounts of energy are given off  by "natural objects" and are thus in some way detectible ( the theory of which you clearly do not "believe" is possible )--that the "known" high energy levels given off by bleed off from "high power lines" could in theory mess with the faint "natural signal lines"--- thats all---  I 'm not trying to  prove or disprove the existance of said "naturail signal ines" ---just saying IF they do exist --it would be easy to understand how high powerlines "could" easily mess em up in theory at least.

signal lines being of faint energy would not be visable --but radio and tv signals aren't "visible" either --but we know that they exist .--- crystal radios used natural crystals

This isn't really the greatest comparison you could have made.  Radio and television signals are purposelly generated at a certain strength and frequency, for the sole purpose of being detected by a number of sources.  They carry very specific information and, upon detection, there's no question as to what they are and what they exist for.  It isn't necessary to see the waves since there are machines built to translate those signals.

But signal lines seem to generate spontaneously, don't seem to be "meant" to be detected by anything, and the only way of locating them is with dowsing rods?

Now, I know you're not saying they do or don't exist, but if they are real things, and many people seem to believe this, then surely there are other methods of detecting them and intrepreting the information contained in them?

Hey Ivan….Signal lines are also a mystery to me. I know every thing I need to use them. I know where to find them. I know how to follow them. I also know where and what is omitting them. I don’t have to be a rocket scientist  to use them for my gain. I guess it is just so simple that some people will never get it…Art

Could it be even simpler, Art?  Could it be that you assume these lines exist, and that you assume you're following them, when in fact your rods are being guided by your own movements and a knowledge of where items of interest are likely to be deposited?

A reminder...

If you want to discuss dowsing in an open forum in a mature, mutually respectful, and courteous manner... then do that.

If you're only interested in exchanging insults, innuendoes, and cheap shots... do it somewhere else.

FYI, Signal lines are NOT related to mental Dowsing, which IS the subject permitted to be discussed on this forum.

Signal Lines, are descriptive words I use to describe a  detectable "field"  generated by harmonics between a discriminated target, and a mechanical device, which is NOT permitted to be discussed on this forum.

Harmonic induced  "Signal Lines" are real, and have been metered electronicly. Sometimes, when conditions have been right, generated "Signal Lines" have been captured on regular Polaroid film.

These are but two visual examples of the "field" that the Hand held Rod(s)  will cross, and align with a target harmonic "Signal line".

Photo #1.  A generated "Signal Line" taken with a 35mm camera, using special treated Fuji film.

Photo #2.  Taken with a specially made Kodak digital infra-red camera.  The  Orange/red Flare is the natural emenating "field" of two Gold deposits some distance apart. You can see the naturally generated harmonic Signal Line between the two deposits. Dell

So Dell, it's your position that "signal lines" are not a counterpart or product of "mental" dowsing, and as a result should not be discussed here as mechanical dowsing methods are not allowed on this forum? 

But is it possible that the signal lines you speak of, and the ones that Ivan and I were talking about, are two different things?

But is it possible that the signal lines you speak of, and the ones that Ivan and I were talking about, are two different things?

NO! You are discussing known laws of physics. Mental Dowsing is not a known physics application. (meta-physics, psychic, ideomotor response, etc.)

The physical generation of Signal lines, by mechanical means, and the inherent limitations are concurrent with Laws of Physics.

Mental Dowsing with the human mind is not as restricted, if at all,  by external physics.  Imaginary Signal Lines conjured by the brain was not included in your discussion, and they are not included in my mental Dowsing. Signal lines, are strictly an external physics application.

If you wish to continue discussions of "Physics" applications of L-Rod(s) I again suggest you get Marc, to permit you to start an LRL discussion forum. 

Dell

Honestly, I believe a discussion that fits within the known laws of physics will ultimately be much more rewarding than a discussion of anything meta-physical.  Reason being that these are theories and calculations that have been tested and are already known to work. 

But, if none of this would be allowable discussion here, then the signal lines must remain of the mental variety, and as such remain only theory and guesswork.

But, if none of this would be allowable discussion here, then the signal lines must remain of the mental variety, and as such remain only theory and guesswork.

Sorry, I see no rational logic to your reasoning and therefore I conclude my replies to this direction of thinking you keep trying to lead us to.

Mental Dowsing is not about laws of physics. Please, don't complain your objections about TNET  forum rules to me, I don't make the rules.  Please air your complaints with the Moderator.  Thanks!  Dell

I believe you misunderstood me, Dell.

I'm taking your explanation of the mechanical vs. mental signal lines and agreeing with you.  If the signal lines I've been speaking to Ivan about are strictly confined to mental dowsing, and the signal lines you're speaking of are strictly confined to mechanical dowsing, then we should definitely cease discussion of the mechanical end of things, lest someone be penalized for referring to them in this forum.  But I also pointed out that if the only signal line discussion we're left with is that of the mental variety, then the discussion has effectively come to an end as these can only be spoken of terms of theoritical discussions.

I'm here looking for a rational and scientifically valid way to show dowsing works as has been described.

I'm sorry you think I was complaining about anything to you as this surely wasn't my intent.

So, who are the SCIENTIST on this forum that are as experienced in Dowsing, Treasure Hunting, or LRL's, as I am that you wish to engage in Scientific discussion about "signal Lines?  Are you a Scientist?  How about some credentials?

I am not a Scientist. I am a Kentucky hillbilly with only a 6th grade country education. Why ask me questions in your quest for Scientific answers?    Dell

You use scientific-sounding terms in your various explanations.  This would indicate that you're aware of the meanings of these terms. 

Also, why should I need any kind of scientific credentials to speak with you about dowsing?  You don't have credentials, neither do I.  But we each have experience in different areas, enough so for an intelligent discussion.