A question to the American Indian Artifacts Board members

In the past week, I moved two post to different forums. One post being of a  bracelet, the other of trade silver piece of some kind. I kinda caught a little flack about moving those post. So here is my question to you guys,and gals.  What do you consider Artifacts? Do you consider historic pieces artifacts? How about clothing, moccasins, gloves,jewelry, trade silver,Etc. Do you think we need another topic category for these? I'm lost on this one because we are talking Stone artifacts that are up to ten thousand years old or better Verses historic stuff a hundred years or a little better. It doesn't really matter to me, I can weed through that stuff and find the Stone artifacts. I was just trying to keep the board to what you would see at an Artifact show ,that is sponsored by a State society.   What do you guys think? John

[Also If anyone Complains, Remind them it is the "Moderators prerogative"to decide. what stays, and we don't move stuff just for kicks]

What I would do.

Since we have a fur trade section Trade Silver would be moved here

A place to discuss anything related to the Fur Trade Era 1660 - 1840 (buttons, rings, glass beads, brass, iron axes and hoes, Jews harps, gun parts, peace metals, trade silver)

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?board=421.0


Copper Culture Artifacts
Starting around 4000 BC the "Copper Culture" flourished in the Upper Midwest. (especially Wisconsin and Michigan) Post your Copper Culture artifacts here!

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/board,419.0.html

Modern Knapping Items (reproductions)

& even Modern Reproducions of other Indian artifcts here

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/board,509.0.html

clothing, moccasins, gloves,jewelry, If Recent there are areas for them

===

If unsure where it belongs. & it's a recent find TODAYS FINDS

If Older Wing it 

If somone posts several different varieties in one post

American Indian, Trade, & Whatever.

I'd go by which is mentioned in the Title
And Which is Highlighted as the
item with the Best pics.

If alot of or a large Trade Item & a Tiny arrow head in the pic

Move it to "Trade"

=========


Also If anyone Complains, Remind them it is the "Moderators prerogative"
to decide. what stays, and we don't move stuff just for kicks 

In my opinion, any old item used by an American Indian normally considered an artifact belongs here.  An item found on a known old site would be OK, but not necessarily an old item from an currently occupied American Indian reservation.

For example, where would you put a metal point that was made from a fryin pan taken from a pioneer found in a buffalo bone? Is there a special category for something like that? Do we need a category for post contact Indian Artifacts too? In my humble opinion, there are likely many old or ancient items that could go into a few categories.

Joel

Not trying to start an argument Molly, but a piece of metal that is an American Indian Artifact, is 100% American Indian Artifact, and of interest to every artifact collector I know of.  Where does one post up about American Indian bone artifacts? You know how much bone was commonly used I am sure.

 Trying to keep American Indian Artifacts to just rocks and stones would be like trying to keep a pet section to  dogs only.

In my opinion, any old item used by an American Indian normally considered an artifact belongs here.  An item found on a known old site would be OK, but not necessarily an old item from an currently occupied American Indian reservation.

For example, where would you put a metal point that was made from a fryin pan taken from a pioneer found in a buffalo bone? Is there a special category for something like that? Do we need a category for post contact Indian Artifacts too? In my humble opinion, there are likely many old or ancient items that could go into a few categories.

Joel

My opinion

post contact Indian Artifacts, would be relics if over 50 Years old.

many native american articles were not made of stone, prior to trade goods.
perhaps subsections ,to include ceramics, clothing, and stone artifacts,
could be developed.

John, I am not sure what question you are asked so often. AND I am not sure what you are getting at with the cowboy and Indian days either.

You know I am collecting Indian artifacts, and you should also know I have them made of a few different materials, and they span from paleo to post contact. Being post contact doesn't make any of my artifacts less than an American Indian Artifact, and that is a fact.

As far as what you call my board, I'll have you know I am getting a little tired of that place, and knowing my friend was here, I thought I'd like to start hanging out here and getting involved. I surely didn't come here to stir anything up, just offer my humble opinion.

If you want to say that only rocks and stone can be American Indian Artifacts, go right ahead. BUT, we'll both know you are wrong.;-)

Peace Buddy.

"My opinion post contact Indian Artifacts, would be relics if over 50 Years old."

So would that mean they could be artifacts?

 I sure hope not because we'd have to include some automobile's the natives have abandoned all over the res out here.

"My opinion post contact Indian Artifacts, would be relics if over 50 Years old."

So would that mean they could be artifacts?

 I sure hope not because we'd have to include some automobile's the natives have abandoned all over the res out here.

automobile's the natives have abandoned all over the res ?

same thing Relics.

Not artifacts

Sorry Joel. Look I just want this forum to be about the old stuff. I may be wrong, and I probably am again. I say Show your stone tools, points, and if you have something else, Jeff has pointed out where to put them if they fall into something else. We have a good peacefull forum and I'D LIKE TO KEEP IT THAT WAY

"Sorry Joel. Look I just want this forum to be about the old stuff. I may be wrong, and I probably am again."

John, this is the header for this forum.

*American Indian Artifacts*
Share your finds of arrowheads, ceramics, and other native American Indian artifacts here.
Including: Modern Knapping Items (reproductions)

Arrowheads, ceramics, and OTHER native American Indian artifacts here.

I understand you want to keep this to the "old stuff" and I agree with that line of thinking, but there are other old things that belong in this forum. You header isn't going to help you keep the OTHER things besides rocks and stones out though.

"I say Show your stone tools, points, and if you have something else, Jeff has pointed out where to put them."

I completely understand where to put them. Where would YOU say I should put my 2 personal found bone pressure flaking tools just out of curiosity? If you found a stone knife still affixed to the buffalo rib bone it was glued into, where would you post it on here? I know you John, you would be ecstatic and it would get posted right here with everything else you found that day.

" We have a good peacefull forum and I'D LIKE TO KEEP IT THAT WAY"

Good, we are all on the same page then.
 
Peace

Keep this section purely rocks & stones.

Have other sections for Trade items etc...Otherwise we will get MD'ers posting their metal finds on here. Nothing worse than sifting through mixed threads..JMO.

Molly.

THIS

Ok. Joel you dirty dog. LOl you snuck that one in on me. After being on the phone with you an hour, I still have not changed my mind. Hee hee. I respect your views, and if I found a bone anything you bet I would post it. Bone is a part of artifact hunting, needles, hair pins, awls etc. Thats a far cry from a  blanket, or bracelet, on and on.  It was good to talk to you tonite. you know where i stand on this. John

It was great visiting with you as well John. I look forward to getting together with you at the show in Mt. Pleasant in a couple weeks.

John,

You’re doing a great job, thank you.

I understand your dilemma here and I appreciate you giving board members an opportunity to express their views. This is only my viewpoint and I am sure others will disagree.

I tend to call an item made and used by an American Indian an artifact anytime previous to them being forced to live as the white man dictated, that is, forced onto the reservations (circa mid 1880’s). 

I too believe items made expressly for and during the fur trade era should have their own category.

 However, there is a class of American Indian Artifacts that I would hate to see eliminated from this forum and those are the many post contact, American Indian-made metallic artifacts made from recycled metal objects. These Indian-made objects generally fall into three categories, weapons, tools and items for self-adornment. The original metallic object, before being recycled by a Native American may or may not have been a trade item.  I am relatively sure the silver bangles in question were Indian made from a recycled silver item and not necessarily “trade silver”. I feel if the finder believes his artifact is Native American-made and made from a recycled metallic item then it qualifies to be posted as an American Indian Artifact.   11KBP

i read a story once...of how the navajo weavers would sit for hours unraveling captured 'bluecoats' and reuse the blue woolen thread for their weavings...this was prior to the introduction of artifical dyes to the natives...

i like this thread...and have attempted to say on topic with my response...
boy, could i post pic's of abandoned cars on the rez...

Hi guys-
I've been really spotty in my activity here (just opened a restaurant in Sept.- up to my gazoongas in all things food and bev...) but that aside, I'm crazy about this site and visit several times/week.  I'm wondering, would it not make sense to have sub-catagories-- like you have done for reproductions at the top of this forum??  Perhaps 'leather and fabrics' for the wearables, '
adornment/jewelry' for the beads and bangles, etc.  Just a thought.  Seems to me that there are some folks who are just as passionate about clothing/blankets-- woven and other fabrics as we are about pointy or polished rocks.  It would certainly simplify the hunt for information/education if there were a separate catagory, and would likely be appreciated for whome it is their 'thing'.  Seems to me that 'relics' is just too broad- includes too many things.  And a culture is certainly more than what it uses as tools.  The obvious thing here is that non-rock, non-petrified (ie, non-permanent) items are rare because they tend to rot and vanish for ever.  Perhaps we should honor what remains of these vanishing textiles and etc. on this forum in a sub-catagory (or two).  There is, I'm sure, a lot to learn.
Riverhunter

So where do you think the silver and brass came

[Indian artifact]

So where do you think the silver and brass came from that they made the tinklers and cut out arrows out of? For sure it was trade so even if they made stuff out of the trade materials it is still in the trade era! Correct
Steveo

No, that is not correct; you cannot simply assume all Indian-made metal relics were made from recycled trade items although I agree many were.

Many of the Plains tribes were at one time or another quite hostile towards the White invasion. From the references I have read, raiding parties on the Santa Fe Trail were common as well as sites raided along the Oregon Trail. An example is the Pawnee Nation from the central Plains region; at one time before disease reduced their numbers they were one of the most powerful tribes in the central Plains region and raided as far south as Mexico. Many a lone traveler or small parties simply disappeared on these trails because of these hostile raiders. The Sioux and Cheyenne also obtained much metal during the Indian Wars and it wasn’t always by trade but by raiding. Even gold coins were found in one Colorado hostile village site and you can bet they were from a raid and not a trade. Most of the silver, brass, and iron items the Indians plundered during these raids were not originally intended as trade items for Indians.

 As I said in my above post “The original metallic object, before being recycled by a Native American may or may not have been a trade item”. Regardless of how the metal was obtained I find it fascinating how quickly they adapted to its use and fabricating what they wanted or needed from it.  It seems to me once a piece of brass or iron is made into an arrowhead it is indeed an Indian artifact regardless of the metal’s source.  If the moderator(s) wish to lump all historic metal Indian relics into the fur trade era that is his/their prerogative and I can probably live with it.  

That is a good point

definition of an artifact-An object produced or shaped by human craft,especially a tool,weapon,or ornament of archaeological or historical interest.so if the post fits this definition for this forum,what more is there to decide?

at the mention of the sante fe trail...
one point in this topic eastern people forget, is the spanish were in the
neighbor hood for 300 some odd years prior to 'american expansion'.

the evidence suggests the hopi/pueblo's gathered material from jerome, copper compounds used for paint and dye...
copper bells are found all over the southwest.
northwest coast people worked and traded copper..
the great lakes peoples worked and traded copper.

while native americans did not worship gold and silver, they did use the material they had the technology to gather.

It's all good. Sometimes folks forget. These forums should be educational and fun, like our hobby. I found this 1850s pipe bowl, while out arrowhead hunting.

Here in South Florida, our ancient Indians didnt have rocks or stone.  Only coral rock and sand.  Arrowheads were made of bone, antler and sharks teeth. Tools made of shell.  I cant post them here?

I think you can post bigcypresshunter. Everyone post bone and shell not just rocks. John the moderator seems very fair.Show what you have found 

Seems simple enough.

1) Pre-contact era

2) Contact era.

(?)

dont wast your time moving them. i collect all types of indian artifacts.love to see anything that has to do with them.