The Pearl Ship

i haven't been here for a while but will toss my two cents in again. 

what changed the pattern of the how the lower Colorado river flooded and flowed was the arrival of the Americans.   

if left alone the Colorado   with its tidal bore would have shifted both its main channel and the location of its mouth  with frequency and over wide distances miles apart.  hence some of the early mapping confusion
a Spanish explorer  renaming the river because its mouth was miles/leagues from where a previous explorer
charted it.   The British  Lt. Hardy  esp had trouble finding the Colorado's mouth.
this shifting is a natural phenomenon that occurs in most rivers with large tidal bores.

some of the steamships were able to go  as far as  Callville  when the water was high.
http://www.quehoposse.org/steamboatplaque.html     


 things Americans did in the early days to keep the Colorado  in what has become the main channel

in one of the travel journals describing a steamship trip up the colorado from the mouth.
the writer describes how when encountering a sandbar the boat reversed and used its paddles to dig
the channel deeper.   

when the spring floods did bring down silt and snags that damned the river and started flooding the
palo verde vally california  in the early 1900s.  these natural dams  were set with dynomite
and exploded by  the local homesteaders (I once knew someone who had this as his first paid job) 

the thing that really killed the river and made it stay as we know it today of course is the dams
starting with the building of the Yuma dam  which cut travel up river and down off.

cyas laters guys

just wondering  about the  outlet from the ancient lake.  I've been told it goes by split mountain to laguna salada  and that the watermarks of the outflow are still visible.  anyone have any photos of this?
am unable to go look for myself.

Hey all,
  As far as the old coastline  is concerned I have seen a lot of it out by Travertine Point. It basically borders that Torres Martinez res on the W side. I was just out there on Mon ( 7/14 ) I'll post some pixs here. As far as Split Mt is concerned I have read about a waterway that once went thru it. Here's a quote from " Anza Borrego Guide Book " by Parker ( 1957 ):
 " Legend states that Fish Creek in relatively recent times was a sluggish flowing creek, and it's sandstone and fanglomerate ( ? ) floor was pitted with huge potholes, full of water, many of them containing fish. The floods of 1916, according to the old timers, laid a carpet of sand and rock which effectually filled in the potholes, leaving the wash as it is seen today. "
 This also goes along with a story of a desert rat named Butcherknife Ike That said he found the remnants of a ship while camping overnight in the area. I haven't been that way yet, but I WILL be there this winter for sure.
I do have a interest in the Split Mt connection, however I just don't know how deep the waterway could have been. If the flood of 1916 dropped sand onto the desert floor, then just how low was the floor before ??

PLL

                                         

                                         

                                         

Nice pictures.    the other problem of finding how deep the outlet was  is that area is being slowly uplifted
but the idea is that the entire colorado terminated in the ancient lake.  the egress from the lake being the outflow (the amarillo, yellow western river) by split mountain (a rocky channel)  into laguna salada when the laguna salada is filled  it would be easy to enter from the ocean (may even have been part of the ocean at the time in question).  This being described as a shorter / better route to get a ship into the ancient lake  than up the colorado river.

Hello Isayhello2u,
  Your waterway is a very interesting route, one I have thought of before. There is even a pix of a guy in the 60's who found a boat out in the northern end of Salada.

                                                             

 I just got a book called North to California by Paul A Meyers, it's the 1st volume of a 2 volume set. Basically talking about ALL explorers to California via land or water. He talks about how Alacron sailed up the Colorado past Yuma in 1540. During this route they had a helluva time getting thru. There was no dicussion about a alternate route up thru the Salada, which most likely means it was dry or not deep enough for ships ( even the ones with shallow bottoms ). I do find it interesting that the quote above is from a 1957 Anza Borrego book and quotes how potholes with fish in it were seen by the oldtimers. The is the same quote by Anza himself in 1774/5/6 I can't remember which one, it might be above somewhere. Maybe there was a waterway thru Split Mt and down the Carrizo Corridor... It's possible. Do you have anything more on this idea ??

PLL

Bob MCkne on old cattleman said thair was a old ship  in  the mud Hills SE.ov fishcreek mts with just the Ribs showing around 1938

[WELCOME TO TREASURENET CRAWDAD!]

WELCOME TO TREASURENET CRAWDAD!    Thanks for the info too!  Please post more?  Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
 

I was wondering if that might have been Talbot's old ship

PLL

Barry Storm for sure, and Karl von Mueller I think, both refer to incidents in their books  of private planes flying over the Yuma desert,and the pilots  spotting the masts of ships or ships themselves in the desert. In one case a pilot went back by jeep,but could not locate the ship.  I drive to Vegas often, and in a desolite spot in desert dunes, before Yerma, going North off the Hiway I keep spotting what look likes ships ribs sticking out of the sand. Probably modern,although the surrpunding area looks like it could have been a harbor at one time.

just a heyas .. welcome to crawdad.   

on the question i was asked a year ago but didn't answer  about the alternate route

if you can get a small paddlewheel steam ship up the colorado  to callville then you could get a caravel of about the same size someplace  up the western river on the tidal bore if it existed.

btw does anyone know anything about an early map of the region that shows the Gila reaching the gulf
without merging with the Colorado first ?

I've researched a good bit on this subject and it's my belief that there is
more than one ship in this area due to the variations in the accounts describing the
locations.
      I am very interested in the viking ship, as the earth was warmer and sea levels were higher in the 11Th and 12Th centuries it seems reasonable that a good part of this area was under water at that time since it is below sea level even today and little is known about the actual extent of viking travel into the Americas.
      Secondly, the idea of there being a Chinese junk, as new evidence is coming out every year supporting china's travel to America.(there are some very compelling and interesting books/websites on these subjects if anyone is interested.)
      Lastly the caravel seems the most plausible. I don't believe that it necessarily has to be Spanish or that of Juan De Iturbe. (I've been trying to get ahold of first hand or government documentation of De Iturbe actually loosing a ship.)
Supposing a ship sent from wherever ended up in lake Cahuilla and none of the crewmen returned to tell about it, there would be no documentation other than that of a missing ship, of which there are many. If the ship was a private or pirating vessel there likely would be no documentation at all.
      So anyway that's just a summary of my views. Of course there are certain spots I think a ship might be hiding for certain reasons & my motivation is not to find pearls or treasure but a piece of history.
      As per the last post, i have seen a lot of old maps of this region but don't recall specifically seeing one that showed the Gila emptying directly into the gulf.
      If anyone is interested in sharing information or even an expedition let me know. I regret jumping in on this topic so late, as I'm new to this forum.
      cheers!

No regrets  !!
Welcome to T-Net.
Glad to have you aboard.

hey gang,
 Well some will tell you, that this and the pegleg smith story are my two MOST favorite. I have dug loooong and deep on this. Surrealpillow, I have been in contact with a researcher in Madrid ( the Spanish archives ), to check on the same thing. But frankly right now I do NOT have $2K to invest in this ( times being they way they are ). But if you find anything PLEASE send me a PM.... I would like to hear what you found - if you are willing to share -. Sayhello there are many, many old maps, but I don't remember one that showed the Gila as a river going into the gulf. However, the Colorado may have been " mislabeled " as the Gila, and maybe that's what you are referring to Here's a map from 1702, that shows the Gila flowing into the Colorado ( I know it's no help - sorry - ). The oldest map I know of is 1587 and there is also a Dutch map from 1602, but both show the Colorado. In fact the dutch one doesn't even show the Gila at all.... But if you find something....... I'm all ears..

PLL

[WELCOME TO TREASURENET Surrealpillow!]

WELCOME TO TREASURENET Surrealpillow! 


Please do continue!  I too think it a good possibility that there could be more than one lost ship in the desert.  I have been trying to locate photos of the "Viking ship" which was supposedly photographed.  Juan de Iturbe made it back to "civilization" or we would not even know the story of the Pearl ship, and there was an investigation according to at least one source.  So you may be able to locate original documents in this case.  With the other ships it is another question.  If a Viking ship did end up trapped in Lake Coahuilla, there is little chance of any written record, though the Mayo Indians of Mexico have a legend that might "fit" with Vikings, and Mayos were known for often having blond hair and blue eyes.  The English pirate or privateer ship Content is another candidate, but "officially" it is just another lost ship.  The UK has good records of ships, but when one just disappeared we don't have any record.  I look forward to reading more, and our amigo Pegleglooker has a great deal of info I hope he won't mind sharing!   
Oroblanco

hey gang,
 SENOR ORO!!!!!! Ola Amigo..... How goes it I hope the cattle ( or horses I don't remember ) are in their corrals and snug like bug.....I'm VERY glad to see you are still being as active as you can be, with work and all. And I humbly thank you for the " kudos " about the pearl ship. It's true I have been researching this for YEARS and have gained a sizable library of sorts. If anyone has any questions ( that I can answer ) I am all ears and will gladly share what I have...As for the viking ship, the photo was shown to Myrtle Botts by a traveling prospector. Botts was in the Terra Blanca Mts off the S2 near the Canebrake canyon, Botts was the head librarian in Julian and a avid flower lover. After sharing a meal with the prospector, he told here where the ship was located and she did find it !!! But as she was leaving, a earthquake struck and the side of the hill fell taking the ship with it to the bottom of the canyon...

I am of belief that Iturbe NEEDS to be researched in the archive to either say he is... or is not one of the top candidates... The other is the captain of the Content Thoams Cavendish and there are several smaller " pirates that worked up and down the Baja and Californian coast....

enjoy
PLL

I received a recent photo of a petroglyph from the Pinto Canyon area just north of the Mex. border from a hiker.  The obvious striking image of a single sail/mast (square rig) can be seen among the stick figures.  This area is many miles from the coast and just north of La Rumorosa, which overlooks Laguna Salada, and is in the vicinity of the sighting of the Vikiing Dragon ship supposedly found in the mountains of this region.
Anyone interested in mor details, just ask here.

That is way cool Bob,
It even has oars!
I wouldn't have expected to see that .
WOW

Thom

hey gang,
 Hey Bob, do you know if the rock art has been dated by anyone ?? I also think that the Laguna Salada  area " may " be one of the the hotspots for a lost ship.... Or at least the Viking Saga, getting back to the rock, what elevation was it found at and what direction was it facing ( N S E or W ). And lastly was found on the northern end, maybe near Davies Canyon ? Looking forward to your answer.....

Thx
PLL

HOLA mi amigo Pegleglooker!  Thank you for asking - been busy as h-ll and often don't get home so can't get online much.  Fortunately now that the cattle are in the summer pasture (branding etc is done) I hope to get home more often.  I hope you are doing well and look forward to more of your posts. 
your amigo in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco
 

I picked up the recent issue today and read the article, which had no pics.  The author, a respected wedding photog, sent me all the pics from the trip.  It is obviously legit. South of the border near La Rumorosa, there are many similar markings in the mountains. Google la rumorosa).  The article is at http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2009/jun/03/cover/

And the website pics are at http://robertmarcos.com/pinto-canyon.  I have asked the author if he had the GPS coordinates of the site but have not received a reply.  I ask all Tnetters NOT to contact him because I have not explained to him the possible significance of the artwork, and he is (according to his article) upset at fing a picture of a boat rather than a saber tooth cat.

I will keep you informed if I get a response to the GPS request. In the meantime, please respect his privacy...he knows nothing of Tnet.

Bob

HOLA mi amigo Pegleglooker!  Thank you for asking - been busy as h-ll and often don't get home so can't get online much.  Fortunately now that the cattle are in the summer pasture (branding etc is done) I hope to get home more often.  I hope you are doing well and look forward to more of your posts.  
your amigo in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Hey Roy,
 If you have any " extra " steaks, I can eassssssily send you my address < hint hint > LOL

PLL
 

Thanks for the info bobinsd! hope to hear more from you.
As for Juan DE Iturbe, someone mentioned contacting the Spanish archival records.
There are two books that anyone specifically researching him might be interested in:
A New Island Biography of the Sea of Cortez
which mentions him and his exploits in the first chapter.
And:
Geographic and Hydrographic Descriptions of Many Northern and Southern Lands and Seas in the Indies, Specifically of the Discovery of the Kingdom of California

Which was written by Nicolas De Cardona, who supposedly was in charge of the fleet from which the 'pearl ship' came. After getting injured, he and a ship returned to Acapulco leaving Juan De Iturbe in charge. He does mention De Iturbe several times and may record him loosing a ship.

I haven't read either in their entirety, although I plan to. So far the only thing I've read that actually mentions De Iturbe loosing a ship was The Voyage of the Flame which was a fictional book and seems to be the basis for most of the myths found on the internet.

Hi Surreal,
 There are a few books that mention De Iturbe, he is mentioned quite a bit as a kings " snitch " while on trips going to Australia. But the reason for the search in the archives is to " prove " that he did indeed lose a ship. Because if that REALLY happened then the king would want to talk you.... that's for sure..... I have some records from the archives, just not the one I'm looking for. If Iturbe ( actually it's spelled Yturbe ) did lose his ship he would have to explain himself to the king and there should be a record of this. This record should include where the ship was lost and a record of his journey back to the gulf. According to what I read, his ship had a crew of 100 men, yet only less than 10 people made it back alive. One of these men was the king's scribe, and he would have made a record of the whole ordeal. This is the record that I'm looking for, I have a approximate area that I think the ship was lost in and this record would either agree or disagree with my findings. If it agrees then tha next step is to head out a MD the area and see if anything shows up...If anyone knows a " cheap " way of getting the records I'm listening.....

PLL

hello pegleglooker! Its nice to toss ideas around with someone interested in the same story.

If I'm not mistaken, at the time in question De Iturbe was employed by the Cardona company which was granted an exclusive licence by the Spanish government for pearl fishing in the sea of Cortes. I'm not so certain the king himself was too concerned with one particular caravel being lost, but De Iturbe would definitely have to answer to the Cardona company because thats who owned the ship. Again I could be mistaken on some of this, please correct me if I am. According to  some reading I did today on the subject, De Iturbe actually lost several ships to Dutch privateers in these waters during the course of ten to twenty years, but still no mention of a landlocked ship. What are your thoughts on the story of a certain family coming to El centro poor in the early 20Th century and leaving rich? reportedly building a pig pen out of the old timbers from the ship. I don't know the family's name off hand.

Also do you find the maps, or renditions, regarding the extent of lake cahuilla helpful at all in forming your opinions?

PL  is there anyway to set up a  non profit research fund type thingy to answer the archive question.
i'd be willing to add a miniscule amount (not more than $10.00)  to something like that.  if enough curious people chipped in.  we could get the answer. 

[Here is the article on Jacobsen, the old guy is Carver in the 1960's....]

hey gang,
 Sayhello, I thought of that same thing, meaning if we all " pooled " in some funds, maybe we can get up enough cash together to find out the answer. Anyone up for it ?? I just don't know if there are enough people to raise the $ 1000. Surreal, the farmers name was Nels ( short for Nelson ) Jacobson, he hired a 17yr old kid by the name of Elmer Carver to watch over his farm and wife while he went to LA. While he was out, his wife showed Carver some of the gems he dug out from the buried ship. I have researched this and have PROOF that Jacobsen did live in Imperial ( I found land deeds and records of where his 700 acres of land was at ),and did have a hog ranch. There is a newspaper article that states " Jacobsen came to Imperial with $4000 and left 7yrs later with over $130K.. That's alooooooottt of pigs in only 7yrs....Story goes that he ( Jacobsen ), did a 3way split between himself, his attorney, and a LA pawnbroker to sell the gems. If you think that he doubled his intial investment in the hog ranch, that would mean there was about nearly $400K worth of gems. And I'm sure he didn't get top dollar for them. For me I would love to find the bell, so I could really pi$$ of some arche who say " I deal in history... not legend ". It would be HUGE kudos for the MDr family.....

Here is the article on Jacobsen, the old guy is Carver in the 1960's....

Here is a directory from 1914 that shows that Jacobsen did live here...

 Here is a plat map showing the area where Jacobsen had his ranch...

Enjoy
PLL

hey gang,
 I thought you guys might like to see what a archival document looks like and just how hard it is to read. Remember this is " old Spanish ", and sometimes the type of language and the meaning of the words may have changed. It's not just translating words, but the meanings behind them as well.

PLL

Awsome.  But like someone stated above,  the roc picturing the ship has oars?  Unless the artist saw the ship actually in the water, how would they have known about the oars?  hmm... Makes me think that the location of the rock means little in regards to the location of the ship itself.

Awsome.  But like someone stated above,  the roc picturing the ship has oars?  Unless the artist saw the ship actually in the water, how would they have known about the oars?  hmm... Makes me think that the location of the rock means little in regards to the location of the ship itself.

Agreed but the picture gives credence to the legend.
That says a lot in regards to what most stories give.
lots of folks chase smaller evidence.

Personally, I don't see the oars.  I see a first attempt on the left, then, since there was no "delete" button, the artist drew a better version on the right.  Also, since the sails are set, it indicates the observer saw the ship in the water, and the vertical stripes are like those on pics of longships found on Google.

If I had a vehicle I would investigate the area my self.  The Laguna Salada is visible from the location.  I have the coordinates, and would be willing to share if someone is interested.
Bob

hey gang,
      I think the oars are the lines surrounding the bottom of the " hull " of the ship. The appear as oars....

PLL

Here is an enhanced view...I hope.

OOPS! here it is.

Bob

HOLA amigos,

The oars depicted in the rock carving could be a key to identify what kind of ship and the most likely people to have been sailing it, which could be MUCH older than Spanish Colonial times.  (Viking, Phoenician etc.) 
Oroblanco

 Oro has a point, and I would like to ad I wonder what the meaning is of the 2 " human " drawings. One is sure to be male and the other, has a black item in one hand, and a white item in the other. Plus what is the meaning of the symbol it is facing ?

PLl

The lines below the ship could be oars or maybe fishing nets or both ? , also the cross with the 2 lines and circles above it may be a map?..On another note I recall seeing a black/white  photo of a vikeing ship with its front bow sticking out of the side of a mountain. I dont recall the name of the book, but it was at the Northridge, collage library,where I used to do a lot of research.

Can you imagine how difficult it must have been to create a representation without the benefit of any metal tool.

Could the squiggly line at the bow be an attempt at drawing a serpent's head?  I think the ship on the left was a "first try" that the artis was dissatisfied with but there was no "delete" button.  Certainly there must be someone who can decipher the symbology.

Bob

HOLA amigos,

Thank you Pegleglooker for pointing out the odd symbol.  I have no theory as to its meaning, sorry to say.

Bobinsd wrote

Could the squiggly line at the bow be an attempt at drawing a serpent's head?

That could indeed be a serpent's head.  It is tempting to make the 'leap' to conclude this must represent a Norse ship; however the Norse were not the only people to use figureheads on the prows of their ships; for instance ancient ships of Carthage often had a horse's head on the prow, ancient ships of Tyre frequently had a swan; Sidonian ships often had a depiction of the strange dwarf god Bes (complete with feather headdress) and so on.  A swan could "fit" with that squiggled line about as well as a serpent - so I am not ready to make conclusions (yet) as to what kind of ship it is supposed to represent.  I think we can safely rule out any kind of canoe however!
Oroblanco

much as i love the legend  - and I think the carvings are a neat addition to the legend part of this...
- I don't know of an easy way to date  rock carvings.  but even though each Indian tribe had their own area, their young men like young men everywhere did on occasion travel here and there.  I can see one inscribing something he saw on a rock  as he is telling others about something he saw.  and these Indian travelers to the gulf and back
would have had several chances to see ships, once gulf exploration got under way.

 so it could be a representation of the
Rus (a viking like people ancestors of Russians ) , a Chinese or Spanish explorer or a Pichilingue (dutch pirate)
or even something more recent like a whaler.     I do remember a story and I think it was in one of bancroft's histories
about one of the very early Spanish explorers up the California gulf finding  some foreign people (sailors?) someplace along the shore doing some smelting.
  there were explorations around the coast and even up the river like Alacorns.  Alacorn on the river would have had to have used oars.

Felt this might be the best thread to place this imfo,slightly related,but not entirely,oh-well, A Dutch pirate named Spillberg overhauled and robbed the Pearl fishing vessel of Iturbi,and I believe this to be close to La Paz where Corte"s found a colony.

 Hello Ghostdog,
      Ok You now have MY attention.... PLEASE tell us some more....

PLL

DITTO to the words of my amigo Pegleglooker!

 
Oroblanco

ORO!!!!!! Man you were pretty quick qith that answer....LOL

PLL

    Well, like you - he sure got my attention!  Remember one version says Iturbe was chased by pirates,which was why he sailed up the Colorado river........
Oroblanco

Hey oro,
 I agree, but there was a earlier time ( if I remember right ) that he lost his ship to pirates as well.... This was a few years before his trip up the river. I have also found some GREAT info about a ship called the " Explorer " that actually sailed from the gulf up the Colorado river past Yuma. They decided that there just was wayyyyy too much silt in the river to make it a viable business. The Explorer was found in the 30's or 40's in Mexico close to the gulf, and the only thing left was the hull and some " ribs ". I have a pix that will post later. I also found a early 1900's map that " could " show a path from the gulf, to the Colorado, to the New river, to Lake Vulcan and finally to the Salton Sea. It's make one think when you see it.

PLL

Ok guys, I really dont have much, I tried to post about 11:30 pm last night and got distracted, besides Iturbi,there were 3 other Pearl gathering ships,the Balandra/pilot Atondo{a bigdog},with Father Goni,a Jesuit ,the Capitana/pilot Guzman and pilot Escalante ship name is missing. The pearls were kept in  scared royal chests that took 3 keys to open, these chests were the Kings 5ths. The best pearls were called "taladros",the worst "aljofares". They looked for pearls from La Paz down the coast to California. About this time there was a huge drought from Mexico to California. A Dr.Don Martin wrote that the Lake of Texcuco ? had dried up,and one could walk on foot across it. I do not know the date when Iturbi had his encounter with pirate Spillberg.gd

Hello Ghostdog,
   If I may be so bold as to ask what is your source of this info Has this been recorded in any book or manuscript And who is Dr. Don Martin I have had a stong interest in this story for years and would LOVE to see where this comes from. I know that before the lost ship incident, Iturbe was part of a exploration of Australia. He was looked down upon, because people thought he may have been a spy for the king... Please let us know when and if you can. You are on center stage !!!!!

PLL

Only have time for a short post, may do more  tonight, correction needed ,it is Dr. Don Martin de Solis, lived in same time period as mentioned above, in  Mexico,which is where Lake Texcuco ?is located.
Looks like Mexico was on the dole dureing the drought years '2" and Spain provided many thousands of loafs of bread through donations.
I guess much like food stamps today. Could be the first welfare system ever?

Im sure that in some of my previous posts  I have written about Dutch admiral (or pirate) Joris Von Spielbergen actions in the gulf in 1615
it was Nicolas Cardona's  ship the Capitana San Francisco that was taken.  the other two ships in the exploratory fleet at that time  were the San Antonio and the San Diego

   Iturbi /Iturbide  was still in the upper part of the gulf at the time.  Joris never sailed again after his historic voyage ended because of legal troubles

Iturbi still may have had troubles with Pirates  on his next voyage though.



sources
Geographic and hydrographic descriptions of many northern and southern lands and seas in the Indies, specifically of the discovery of the kingdom of California (1632) / by Nicolas de Cardona ; translated and edited by W. Michael Mathes


Speilbergen, Joris van; Jacob Le Maire; J.A.J. de Villiers
THE EAST AND WEST INDIAN MIRROR, Being an Account of Joris Van Speilbergen's Voyage Round the World (1614-1617), and the Australian Navigations of Jacob Le Maire. Translated, with Notes and an Introduction
London Hakluyt Society 1906         

and web surfing info about  Acapulco's Fort San Diego

[Thank you]

Isayhello2u wrote

<snip>Speilbergen, Joris van; Jacob Le Maire; J.A.J. de Villiers
THE EAST AND WEST INDIAN MIRROR, Being an Account of Joris Van Speilbergen's Voyage Round the World (1614-1617),
<snip>

Thank you for this one especially amigo, and yes you have also mentioned Van Speilbergen before - I am always interested in hearing more, like so many of us (like our mutual amigo Pegleglooker) and have never found this particular book even mentioned  before.  I am always "trolling" for  more info on our lost treasure tales as you know, and this one is one of my personal favorites even if it is perhaps the most far-fetched.  Thank you again!   
your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco
 

Iturbi-ref.-Decent made by the Spainards,Lockman
The Cardona Co.and the Pearl Fisheries of Lower California.-Pacific Historical Review.-Dr,Sanford Mosk
Atondo-Diary of his Pearl Fishing Voyage 1685.
 

Woke up had my java, a little more imfo for you Pegleg,

The Atondo diary was already tranlated from the original manuscript in Mexican archives.{Autos de la Ultima Entrada ,A.G.I.,58-4-23 Mexico,56.

Pacific Historical Review,111,p.50-61,Glendale,March,1934

Try finding , H.H. Bancroft,History of the North American States

From what I read the Pearl fishing was not very profitable ,and the Pearls were hard to come by, as the natives consumed the young pearl shells as food. I believe the story of a person findeing baskets of Pearls in the desert on a sand encrusted ship are probably embellisments.  I am sure their is more than 1  ship out there  buried under sand.
I have no more imfo on Iturbi or his traveling history.

The drought probaly dried up and closed the waterways,which just filled with sand..Its possible when and if Iturbi went inland the water was already somewhat shallow and receding fast,another possiblity is bad luck timeing,their may have been an earthquake which tipped the land towards the ocean and the water drained like a sive..gd


 

Hey gang,
 Thankx for alllll the info, you guys have been GREAT!!!! I was also informed that the gulf had the BEST black pearls in the world. maybe this was the " true " reason that pearl fishing continued in the region....Once again thankx for all the references... Looks like I have my work cut out for awhile, trying to find them, buy or download them, read them, and then TRY to really understand them...

Thanx
PLL

I must once again say DITTO to the words of our amigo Pegleglooker! 
Oroblanco

you should have no trouble with an interlibrary loan  thats how i managed to read them.

the one thing that was of use  in  the east and west mirror was speilbergen's  drawing  of the ship  he captured  showing its smaller size and rigging next to his
full sized galleons.    this gives a clue as to the size of ships the Spanish were using to explore the gulf circa 1615 a.d.

I was wondering on that Elmer Carver article   what newspaper/magazine and Date  is that from ?

reading the July 1945 desert magazine story about doodlebug prospector   (pg 7) came across a mention of the story in conjunction with the digging of  brass ship fittings?

Ok guys, I really dont have much, I tried to post about 11:30 pm last night and got distracted, besides Iturbi,there were 3 other Pearl gathering ships,the Balandra/pilot Atondo{a bigdog},with Father Goni,a Jesuit ,the Capitana/pilot Guzman and pilot Escalante ship name is missing. The pearls were kept in  scared royal chests that took 3 keys to open, these chests were the Kings 5ths. The best pearls were called "taladros",the worst "aljofares". They looked for pearls from La Paz down the coast to California. About this time there was a huge drought from Mexico to California. A Dr.Don Martin wrote that the Lake of Texcuco ? had dried up,and one could walk on foot across it. I do not know the date when Iturbi had his encounter with pirate Spillberg.gd

PLL and Ghost Dog,

Going by the names of the two ships you provided, I remembered a passage from Father Ernest J Burrus SJ's book "Kino and Manje, Explorers of Sonora and Arizona" PP# 22-23:

After conferring with Atondo, Kino retraced his steps to Guadalajara and in early June he visited Rosario near the harbor of Mazatlan. He was soon in the saddle again, this time in order to ride back to Nio for the blessing of three new ships: the Almiranta (a frigate with the high-sounding name of San Jose Y San Francisco Xavier), the Capitana (another frigate named La Concepcion), and the Balandra (a sloop)...............

While there is not an entry in Kino's Diary for the exact date, the ships left Chacala for the trip to the California Peninsula on 17 January 1683. This would place their launching at the end of 1682.

My favorite name of the group is the "San Jose Y SAN FRANCISCO XAVIER" The second part of the name just happens to contain the name of one of the seven founders of the Jesuit Order. Provaocative to say the least.

.....and Father Kino's Diary matches closely with that of Atondo. The pearl fishing was poor and the Indians ate the little pearls along with the oysters.

Ghost Dog: Welfare has been around MUCH longer than that. At the Coliseum, the Romans used to toss loaves of bread to the crowds before the days' activities. Don't forget Jesus, who fed the masses with a loaf of bread and a fish.

Best-Mike

Best-Mike

Love the posts for this Pearl Ship1

I live in Ohio and want to share something that might have an impact on the Pearl Ship hunt. Near Chillicothe Ohio is an old Viking Fort, the Smithsonian guys like to call it Norwegian. It sets up on top of a huge plateau and is around 3 miles in circumference. They had six or seven SMELTERS at the base of it making a crude iron. Why do I mention this? Well not far from the plateau you can see where the water use to be over 100 feet up on the hills where there is nothing but a huge valley now! This is the place where they docked their boats!
I am mentioning it because of previous posts where someone mentions that the Spanish encountered other people using a smelter. These Vikings were everywhere way before the Spanish/French. There is another location similar to the one I just described near Louisville Kentucky. The Indian legends say the Vikings were really mean and ate people! The Indians from several tribes got together and wiped them out. The legends say 5,000 Indians fought 1,100 Vikings.  I have a picture of a weapon they used, its conical like a bullet, about 22 inches long and big end is 5 inches in diameter…they used it by fastening it onto the end of  saplings and fired it from a huge crossbow.  Similar legends abound near the area of the Pearl Ship.
My point is there may have been a time when the water ways were higher than now, at least 100 feet. This would let the explorers into an area like where the Pearl Ship is…then who knows what happened to make things dry up or change.

if you read spanish  here is a historical bit from nicolas de cardona
http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/ser...1383808633682624978802/p0000001.htm

Thanks for the link, it was interesting. For those that don't know it, Google does a pretty good job of translating. You might have to have Google Toolbar installed though.

For What Its Worth:
heavener-runestone.com
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavener_Runestone
sunnyway.com/runes/americanstones.html
 

 

Would anyone be interested in seeing a satelite photo of this ship that Juan Iturbe was the captain of in 1605?  If so I can provide it for free.
wgphemet@yahoo.com

Of course I would Scotty.  I hate loose ends on treasure stories he he he.  I have sent you  an em with my personal data.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Bump 

Morning Scotty:    did you ever receive my em about the sat picture of the ship?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Isayhello2u:  That article appears in The Treasure Hunter magazine (Vol. 7, No. 1-2) pgs. 25 & 26.  Johnnie Pounds often reprinted articles from our sources, and that layout looks like another publication.  So, I'm guessing he did reprint it.

2.0:  Perhaps from Westways Magazine, November 1931?

Mr. Weight, a very reliable authority on all matters of the American desert(s), prepared the Lost Ship of the Desert; A Legend of the Southwest [The Calico Press:  Twentynine Palms, CA: November 1959) "A Calico Print Portfolio."  Copies are almost unobtainable today.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

I believe I have found the ship.  Once I get to the site and confirm it I am going to need an investor ASAP so I can hire archaeologists in order to conduct proper excavation.  You will most definitely be well compensated for your generosity in the end.

[WELCOME TO TREASURENET robertherman83!!]

WELCOME TO TREASURENET robertherman83!!   

Congratulations and good luck!
Oroblanco

 

Welcome to T-net !!
please reconsider the archie angle.
they only make it more expensive, and give you nothing in return.
get a good one after you confirm the find. then waste the money. 
you will have to prove it all over again anyway.

at least this way you may have something to show for it personally.
Rather than seeing it all go to an archie's private collection.

Welcome robertherman83,

Don't know where you think you may have found it, but I have found that its' location is "fairly" common knowledge amongst old timers in the El Centro Area. No jewels or treasure, and most of the aft portion of the Caravelle was used to build part of a man's house (they used the aft portion because it had the only straight planks). A piece of the forward section of the ship is still at the location, but is usually under twenty or so feet of blow sand.

Best-Mike

Hmm gollium: first let me say that I have been worried about you being stuck half way into an old mining tunnel with no help, you were too quiet for too long  sheesh.  Rather have you around than an old Land Rover.

Second I would tend to agree with you except for the irritating coincidence of the reports from Indians of an ole Spanish ship also being located in the sand dunes of the Pinacate region in Old Mexico.


Hmmmmm

    glad that you are still here to have coffee with us ya louse.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hi Guys,

interesting thread, 

regarding the ship i have read the same story that Gollum mentions, and is more than likely to be correct,
when salt gets into timber and it is in conditions like the desert area referred to the rot is minimal due to the very dry conditions once the moisture evaporates out it becomes hard and doesn't rot much after that and the salt preserves it,  rot is caused by a fungus which needs the moisture to survive and  in dry conditions the fungus dies, except in the case of dry rot, which needs moisture at the start of the life cycle and then draws moisture from the air, this doesn't occur in saltwater conditions the salt kills it before the spores can grow,
many wooden ships in later years packed salt between the frames in between the outer planking and the inner planks called a ceiling to stop rot,

and its more likely that when it is called a pearl ship they are referring to mother of pearl which are the shells,
common round the pacific are are black lipped and gold lipped shell about 9 to 10 inch across when fully grown,
they were used before plastic for buttons, only the well off could afford them, peasants (like me) had to make do with wooden toggles to fasten their coats,
and only about one in a hundred had a pearl inside, and only about 10 percent of those were good enough to be worth anything, so any pearls found would probably be in a small chest on the ship and that at least to me could account for the wealth the guy who used parts to build his place came into,

a pearl is like an onion in layers (called nacre) about 3 to 5 layer of this are removed until the lustre shows,   
until about WW2 there were about 50 pearling lugers operating out of Broome in Northern Australia, using natives islanders to dive for them in the gulf of carpenterier, and even up until the 1960s there were still a few operating there, any pearls found were sold and the money split between the divers and crew, they were a bonus and only a small proportion of the value of the entire cargo, the real money was in the shells,

also tidal conditions are such that Chinese ships are found in an area of Baja California, having drifted there over time, perhaps abandoned in a storm or  some date back hundreds of years, there are photos of quite a bit of the stuff that has ended up in a gulf area, there are photos of this in a Book called hunting the desert whale by Earl Stanley Gardener, including hundreds of the glass balls used to float Chinese fisherman's nets before they invented plastic, all deposited there by ocean currents,

in the 1960s a ship carrying 60,000 plastic ducks the little yellow ones you see in fairgrounds, sank in a typhoon and have turned up all over the world, oceanographers track them and have used their findings to chart the ocean currents last year a few turned up on the Hebrides off Scotland, and that's a long way from the south Pacific, and it's more than likely that many of the ships found round America could have landed there that way, and not necessarily from Vikings or any other ocean goers exploring distant lands,

the carving on the rock could show oars when they are shipped, Viking ships and any open boat with oars including Greek and other Mediterranean single deck ships would place the oars just like the drawing unshipped and held vertically when approaching land so that they didn't get damaged and if the grounding was bad could easily drop them back into the thwarts in the gunnel's to back row out of trouble if a swell was running,

Roy is correct about the figurehead and fancy bow and stern sections regarding Mediterranean ships, most were designed like this as it finished of the keel and stem and stern pieces as it swept up at both ends, it makes for an easy run for the planks without tight bends , the stern normally in either a single curved piece flattening to an axe shape or carved like a palm leaf, although there were many variations in the design, and the majority a swans head as he mentions at the bow,   
just my 2 cents worth,

John

Good morning Furness, a  *****  post .  The Indians have repeatably told me of the ship near the Pinacates, from which occasionally they have removed china (?) when it was exposed.  It is full of sand.

Since I was on the trail of other projects, I never followed it up.  Maybe a scroungy, X  sheep lover, would find it a good project to warm up his creaky bones.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. I don't care what  gully of the Land Rover says, he is wrong - unless he is stating that 'I' am never wrong   heheheh

p.p.s  He is on my list, I had visions of just his feet sticking out of a caved in old workings in the desert since he wasn't posting,  sheesh.   Can you just imagine that beautiful Land Rover  just sitting and rusting out there with no-one to take loving care of it, such as myself?

h

Hi Jose,

It could well the Indians are correct as the Chinese used ships for a great deal of cargo from one port in China to another then up and down the various rivers such as the Yangtze, it was a common way of moving pottery or porcelain and other goods round china and quicker and with less breakages than in wagons on dirt tracks, and it carried a great deal more, normally they put everything in wooden slated boxes packed in layers of straw, large amounts were shipped this way,

John

Umm - what is this?



Looks like a vehicle to my untrained eye, perhaps someone has already found it?   

 

HI sheep lovin cowboy.  It does, until you put things into logical proportion or scale.  That would make that ship (?)  enormous.

My coffee???  

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s.  Robert,, it would help if you could resize your picture to a max of 750 pixels.. You have 1440 now.

around 225 ft. long 40 ft. wide

    Ladies & Gentlemen: Gracias my friends  Furness & Robert.  The data  appears much clearer now Robert.  However, you do realize that you are spoiling my fun with that land locked would be sheep luvin, cowboy ? snicker

Seriously Oro is quite sharp and has a tremendous amount of information in his mind, besides sheep. I intend to pick it, and your's.

Incidentally here are some values on the Vikinf Drakkars. (copied and pasted )

The average length of a longship was 28 metres. The largest ever excavated was seventy metres long. Its sixty oarsmen could swiftly deliver as many as four hundred warriors to a battlefield along the coast or well inland via a river. Like most large drakkars, it was owned by a powerful king. He was the only one who could afford to build it. In the last days of the Viking Age, three hundred of these longships were in the Viking fleet.
Crew:
The average longship owned by an earl or nobleman carried a crew of twenty to thirty oarsmen. They rowed the ship when the winds were slight or calm. Other crew members included a helmsmen, who steered the ship; a lookout who watched for rocks in shallow waters and a few spare men who took the place a tired oarsmen or replaced one lost overboard during a storm. The remaining men onboard were warriors, eager to do battle or to raid a community and rob it of its riches.
Construction:
Like all Viking ships, the longship, was constructed using the clinker design. This means it was planked using two centimetre thick oak boards which were overlapped slightly and then nailed together with iron nails. The spaces between the planks were caulked with tarred wool or animal fur to make the ship watertight. The planks were also nailed to support-ribbing that ran from the gunwale to the keel. The keel, which ran the full length of the ship, was made of one solid piece of oak. It add stability and made the ship travel straight through the water.
The longship was very sturdy, and yet flexible enough to withstand the waves of stormy seas and light enough to be dragged overland between two lakes or rivers. The prow, or bow, was sometimes tipped with a very ornate carving of a snake or dragon head, thus earning it the nickname "dragon ship". The prow ornament was removed while the ship was it sea. Replacing such a finely carved piece would be expensive and losing it might be a bad omen.

Don Jose de La Mancha

around 225 ft. long 40 ft. wide

What's the GENERAL AREA? I ask general area because a lot of people think that others will steal it. Eventhough it's barried ina populated desert. Near the Salton Sea? Near Mexico?

[225 ft. long 40 ft. wide]

around 225 ft. long 40 ft. wide

If memory serves, that is considerably larger than the pearl ships used by Juan de Iturbe, which were more like 60 feet long maximum.  De Iturbe had a shallow draft caravel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravels#Design, not a galleon.  If that is a ship, it is enormous.  And the mystery object might be a vehicle too!
Oroblanco

 

[225 ft. long 40 ft. wide]

around 225 ft. long 40 ft. wide

If memory serves, that is considerably larger than the pearl ships used by Juan de Iturbe, which were more like 60 feet long maximum.  De Iturbe had a shallow draft caravel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravels#Design, not a galleon.  If that is a ship, it is enormous.  And the mystery object might be a vehicle too!
Oroblanco

 

Glad to hear someone else speak this theory.
This has been bugging me for quite a while.

PS> Happy new year Roy...  and EVERYONE

It's highly unlikely to be a Spanish ship from that period, and not one of the pearl ships mentioned as the description by the Spanish them selves is for much smaller ships,

Caravels were as Oro says 60 to70 ft long, the Manila galleons which were specifically built to carry treasure from the new world to Spain were not much more than 100 to120 and the largest the Nao's were only about 130 to about 145,

the largest Spanish ship built, The Santisimo Trinidad, was only 215 ft long and that wasn't built until 1765, although it has a broader beam than the 40 ft mentioned, being 57ft and 120 guns. after being rebuilt with a further deck for the extra 8lb cannon,

John

so where is this area? kane Springs? south of the Border? Overland Stage route?

 Greetings Everyone,
 I hope the new year is treating everyone well ans all are in good health.... According to " legend " the ship was stuck when the water receded, which most likely would not be near any coastline. They were on their way back to the gulf and looking for deep enough water to keep moving, so with this in mind they most likely were in  a river or the deepest part of the lake/sea. There are unknown or unexplained anomalies in a lot of the hilly terrains of the desert, but my belief is that it is in a flat sandy area. The ship was stuck, so they used small boats to go as far as they could and eventually walked to the gulf. I agree with Gollum, in that most of the ship has been disassembled and gone... Although I still think finding the ship's bell would be a HUGE coup..... I would love nothing better than finding this and rubbing it in the noses of some of the academics... lol

PLL

 Greetings Everyone,
 I hope the new year is treating everyone well ans all are in good health.... According to " legend " the ship was stuck when the water receded, which most likely would not be near any coastline. They were on their way back to the gulf and looking for deep enough water to keep moving, so with this in mind they most likely were in  a river or the deepest part of the lake/sea. There are unknown or unexplained anomalies in a lot of the hilly terrains of the desert, but my belief is that it is in a flat sandy area. The ship was stuck, so they used small boats to go as far as they could and eventually walked to the gulf. I agree with Gollum, in that most of the ship has been disassembled and gone... Although I still think finding the ship's bell would be a HUGE coup..... I would love nothing better than finding this and rubbing it in the noses of some of the academics... lol

PLL

Do those in academia not believe this ship existed? Why aren't there expeditions to look for it? There is plenty of SPECULATION about where it is but shouldn't it be....RELATIVELY....easy to find with modern technology???

hi, peg & jack:  The Pinacates zone, sand, sand, & more sand  plus the cones.

"South of the border, down Mexico way.  There in  a veil of sand, she lay to answer someones prayer.

Wil it be pegger?  will it be jack, or even gully, who hasn't a prayer.

Ay yi yi yi , ---"

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. apol.to the original composer of a beautiful, nostalgic, song.

[Wil it be pegger? will it be jack, or even gully]

hi, peg & jack:  The Pinacates zone, sand, sand, & more sand  plus the cones.

"South of the border, down Mexico way.  There in  a veil of sand, she lay to answer someones prayer.

Wil it be pegger?  will it be jack, or even gully, who hasn't a prayer.

Ay yi yi yi , ---"

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. apol.to the original composer of a beautiful, nostalgic, song.

Only time will answer that question, but it is a certainty that no one whom is convinced that the ship was found and already removed, along with the pearl treasure can ever find it since they will not search for it.   
Oroblanco

 

 
 The problem for the academics is that there is no " proof " of a ship actually being lost and they would rather put their funding into looking for something with a more viable return. I tried to verify if Iturbe ( actually spelled Yturbe ) with a researcher at the Spanish Archives in Madrid, but the price was waaaay to high. As far as Tayopa's claim, there were a couple of old boats found in Mexico, one was the Explorer which was found twice ( here's the link to the first article http://dezertmagazine.com/mine/1942DM01/index.html ). The Explorer was a old Colorado river rear paddle boat based out of Yuma AZ.. The second one was found by a guy named Morlin Childers, but it as found somewhere in the Laguna Salada area... I posted a picture and story of his find earlier in this forum. But if one was to consider Mexico, then the Salada area makes a lot of sense....

PLL

Hola gentlemen: well pegger is , not sure on oror?  This ship as reported to me by the Indans, It in sand which occasionally is uncovered.  It has been superficially entered, but no one seems to have excavated it when it was exposed. ut some ceremic pieces were removed. Where are they ?? SABE???

Check gully's house.

Don Jose de La Mancha