North of Zuma beach, sandhill dunes, N side of pacific coast hwy

Maybe  about 10-12 mi, this is a good place to search for Spanish artifacts,past resarch at the Los Angeles public library tells me a Spanish ship went down close to this area in the 1500"s,and I recall talking to divers at this beach  looking for treasure in the early 70"s. The dunes are very high with constant shifting sands. Not confirmed ,I have also heard of ancient chinese stone ring anchers being found  by divers along the  northern Calif.coast. Their are maps around that show where some Spanish explorers went inland from some of these  socal beaches. Gold coins and other relics have been recovered,the Chumash Indian decendents may have a lot more imfo.Follow the water inland and you might get lucky.

There was at least one Chinese Stone Ring Anchor found off the Palos Verdes Peninsula
in Southern Los Angeles County also.
Rich

My hunting grounds.   i need to do some research.

On the stone rings I got some info years ago from the Whale watching site on the Palos
Verdes Peninsula near the lighthouse.  I can't remember if they had a picture only or an
actual anchor ring, but I do remember seeing at least a picture.  Might check with them.
Rich

Actually, there's a beach a little further North than that, where several Spanish Coins have been found along side an small reef about 150ft off the beach. Columbian Emeralds have been found washed up on this beach. Conventional wisdom says that there is a Manilla Galleon somewhere close to land there.

I'll be spending a couple of weeks in Pacific Palisades next month. I may just take a little trip up there.

Best-Mike

Since when does reales found on a beach necessarily mean that they are coming from a downed ship (manilla galleon or whatever)?   I've found several Spanish Reales on beaches near Monterey, CA  (a mission era town).  All told, from 6 or 7, between other hunters and I, have been recovered, in addition to some mission era Phoenix buttons on this same beach section.   But no, they are just like seateds, barbers, or mercs:   simple fumble fingers losses.  

I mean, don't you think that someone back in the time of reales could have lost a coin on the beach?  I mean, when you find mercs or whatever after beach storm erosion, you don't think to yourself "oh wow, this must conclusively mean that a ship sunk here in the 1940s!"   No, of course not.   You assume "beach-goer losses".  

The Mel Fisher "treasure beach" stuff in Florida is unlike our west coast shipping and history.   I dunno about "north of Zuma", but if it's like up here in central CA, the seashore drops off relatively fast/deep, NOT AT ALL like the Florida beaches where the off-shore shallows extend much further, inviting near-shore, or in-shallows shipwrecks?   Also the history of shipping is much different in the gulf of Mexico, where for 100s of years, ships expressly left south america laden with silver and gold, going expressly past these dangerous shallow beaches on their way out.   On the west coast though, they were not carrying cargos like that.   Certainly nothing was leaving CA on it's way back to Mexico with anything of value!  (no gold and silver here, known at the time).  And the Manilla galleons, if they carried gold and silver with them, it was on the way TO the Phillipines, to pay for the goods they were going to be buying.  Their route was straight across the Pacific.  Only on the RETURN voyage did they skirt the west coast of what is now Alta CA.  And on that return trip they did not have gold and silver.  They had the things they bought/traded for:  china, silk, spice, or whatever.   For example:  A beached galleon site was found decades ago on a desolate stretch of Baja CA beach.   Try as anyone may, all that was and is ever found, is reams of useless china.  No gold and silver.

Anywhere in CA that there was mission era European influenced population, there can be reales found.  Not only on land (at mission, pueblo, presidio, and rancho sites), but also on the beach.  It doesn't mean that shipwrecks are the source of the coins.

Just to add to the conversation, there are Spanish gold and silver coins to be found on a California beach that is so remote from civilization that the possibility of them being pocket-losses is negliable.  In fact, the only access to the beach is by hiking 25 miles or so.

The coins date from 1804 to 1806...

Therefore, a ship wreck is a greater possibility as opposed (and very doubtful) to a recreational swimmer loosing pocket change...

And what are the chances that  a swimmer or beach visitor would have a pocket full of gold and silver coins?

So if precious stones and coins are being found...its a remote chance of them being lost by other than a ship wreck.

I agree with the different  points of view posted this thread. The shores along the beaches close to Zuma drop sharpley about 50 to 75ft from the shore line,makeing great anchoring loations. The beaches are long wide and expansive, rowing in would be a breeze. One beach the Spanish landed and explored inland for sure is Topanga,quite a few miles South of Zuma..More than a few Gold Reals,and other relics have been found inland following Mailbu creek off Topanga road on the West side. Private houses front the road. The creek runs from backside of Pacific Coast hwy. to within a few miles of the Ventura fwy 101 Ventura fwy.  The Spanish camped, and finding their campground would be a plus, maybe   ? Tapia Park, in Malibu cyn. One old map I saw showed plenty of ship wrecks off the Socal   coast dateing back to the 1400"s.
Catalina Island is another old shipwreck site ,1500"s and Spanish stomping ground. Seems their is some treasure waiting to be found everywhere.

There are numerous wrecks along the coast...and its said that Spain (Philippine) has a record of all ships lost along the Pacific coast line of North and South America...

Apparently there are known galleon wreck sites that cannot be identified or connected to the Spanish records...which isn't all that unusual.

I wasn't aware of a wreck near Catalina, but there are several within the channel island chain.

There are several ship wrecks off the rocky shore sections of Catalina, I have been over at least 1 site, the water is clear to about 60 ft, the wrecks date to early 1500"s. I have seen 1 map showing wreck sites. Relics and coins have been reovered from the sea and off the land.

FYI

A few years back an Treasure Hunter found some bottle of gold dust left hidden by some early miner...not sure if it was in upper Avalon in the hills or in the back country, but it was in or near a residence as I recall.

Hitting Avalon Beach would be a good bet too.

Maybe hitting the landside near the wrecks might be fruitful...

Hey Stefen, here is a link to some historical imformation
http://webbwebs.com/polarmist/polarmist_web/area_info/anacapa.html
I sure wish I could return there for more searches,my friend had a 45Ft cabin cruiser boat moored at Redondo beach harbor loaded down with scuba and fishing gear.At certain areas around Catalina the water is a clear blue/green with eye vision to about 60+ft. The rocky sides  show rougher water and this is probably where a lot of older ships went down during storms. The choral level is fairly high in some places,this is where we located some encrusted ship relics,in sand gullys.Of course the fishing is great, flying fish,marlin,sharks,sting ray,etc. Doesn"t look like I will return anytime soon.
For now,gd

There was at least one Chinese Stone Ring Anchor found off the Palos Verdes Peninsula
in Southern Los Angeles County also.
Rich

   The anchors were found in a cove at Torrance beach by the owners of the Dive & Surf shop in Redondo Bill and Bob Meistrell in the 70's. I have dove the area and I would guess there are more there. Lots of rocks like ballast stones on the bottom and lots of lobsters too ! 

                                                            Ed

Hey Ed,

Remember which cove it was? Not too many: Malaga Cove, Bluff Cove, Lunada Bay, Resort Point Cove, Christmas Tree Cove?

Best-Mike

Recall reading about a tunnel going up inside a hillside to a  house on top of the hill overlooking the beach dureing the probition era somewhere off Torrance beach. There may have been or still is a cove inlet leading to the tunnel. The house was used as a casino etc.
Another place I have been to in Pacific Palasades area is Dead Mans Cove,where it is rumored pirate activity took place. If you were to fly a plane or take a boat along the coast form P.P. to Torrance you will see lots of interesting areas to explore.

Alas! The only wreck I found while diving SoCal was a bardge in about 90' off Point Loma.  No artifacts.

bump

I agree with the different  points of view posted this thread. The shores along the beaches close to Zuma drop sharpley about 50 to 75ft from the shore line,makeing great anchoring loations. The beaches are long wide and expansive, rowing in would be a breeze. One beach the Spanish landed and explored inland for sure is Topanga,quite a few miles South of Zuma..More than a few Gold Reals,and other relics have been found inland following Mailbu creek off Topanga road on the West side. Private houses front the road. The creek runs from backside of Pacific Coast hwy. to within a few miles of the Ventura fwy 101 Ventura fwy.  The Spanish camped, and finding their campground would be a plus, maybe   ? Tapia Park, in Malibu cyn. One old map I saw showed plenty of ship wrecks off the Socal   coast dateing back to the 1400"s.
Catalina Island is another old shipwreck site ,1500"s and Spanish stomping ground. Seems their is some treasure waiting to be found everywhere.

The Museum at Cabrillo had some stuff from a wreck quite a few years back. Not sure if they'd have the stuff displayed anymore. Can't recall any details.

Stefan, there was several rumors making the rounds of a Spanish wreck going down near Catalina. If I remember correctly they were looking around by Cat Harbor. The only problem with that one is the steep drop off, probably be way beyond most of average Thunters capabilities & pocketbook. Also, believe it or not there was actually a gold mine on the island. A guy told me back in the 60s it was a dry hole.

Quite familar with the gold mine operations on Catalina, in fact as previously stated, a few years back a guy found several bottles full of dust and nuggets hidden by a miner.

Earlier in my career I was involved in 2 Catalina Island coastal rock mining operations and shipping Rip-Rap boulders to the mainland for groin construction to prevent beach erosion...

On returning to the mainland (Long Beach) after a field meeting, I was on a seaplane that lost both engines and landed deadstick under the St. Thomas bridge...and the same day, the Cheif Engineer / Geologist crashed his copter into a cliff wall and died...ended that project...

Flew in with a buddy that used to fly a tourist ride heilo. He had a knack for hauling buns right up to the bridge & haul back on the stick loop it over to the left & out and plunk it right on the dock landing pad. I think it was more fun to sit with my coffee & waffle from Ports O Call Village & watch the tourists wobble up the ramp, obviously trying to hold their bladders

Were you doing the groins at Long Beach or the ones between HB & Newport?

The rip-rap was transported and used mainly in OC and SD counties...

I was involved solely in the open-pit mining operation and restoration...not in the placement of the groins...

My graduate thesis was on open pit mine restoration and was published and eventually led to this project...

Cool! I was down on the beach almost every day when they built the groins N. of Newport Beach, was wondering if we crossed paths. Was showing someone where PCH was buried between Newport & Huntington on Google Earth a few weeks back, amazing how well the groins worked.

You guys are talking about something of interest to me.  I have been out metal detecting recently again.  I used to do it back in the 80s and lost interest but recently I have gotten interested in nugget hunting so I MineLabbed up for those trips to Randsburg and Arizona.  When I am here in Santa Monica I want to do something so I go out on the beaches again.

I found this encrusted and embedded 'knife like' relic on a Santa Monica Bay beach. We have been trying to estimate how long it would take for a knife to become so encrusted. At the very tip the blade is exposed but not very rusty.

It was found at low tide and has been in the water for many years. I get impression from it that it is quite old but I don't know for sure.

Do you know who would be able to tell me if it is 100, 200 or more years old?

https://picasaweb.google.com/101421...nife?authkey=Gv1sRgCOrk9MO2koL-5gE#

I just reposted the link to the pictures.

Mitchel

I couldn't get the link to work.... maybe its me

Sorry about that ... I think this full link will work.

https://picasaweb.google.com/101421...nife?authkey=Gv1sRgCOrk9MO2koL-5gE#

I wonder what it would look like if it was x-rayed like they do on TV when they find artifacts....

 Buddy Pegleg:
Does this help?
https://picasaweb.google.com/101421...COrk9MO2koL-5gE#5603869733101880626
Don.....

 I got the pixs fine and I would love to see what comes out of it... But, I was wondering if there was a way to x-ray it ( not here but at a hospital ) to see what's inside.... Like they do on the History Channel....

That is a good question about X-Ray or something.  Someone suggested that I take it to a local university and they could tell me more about it.  Does UCLA have a department that keeps track of 'finds' for Los Angeles County?  I have also just weighed it and it weighs about 2 pounds.  If you are some place on the westside tomorrow I could show it to you.  If not I will be back from Las Vegas and the Arizona desert by next Saturday.

I'm in the Inland Empire, but will gladly wait your find... Good Luck

[not]

MitcheIN, as a 30+ yr. veteran of beach storm hunting here in CA, I've dug untold countless things like that.  All sorts of fossilized conglomerates of fused iron, steel, sand, pebbles, rock, etc....   I've saved a lot of it, just for conversation sakes, WHEN they contain coins.   Ie.: a nail or spike or something that ....... like yours ..... leaches out through the decomposition process, fuses with the sand and minerals in cesspool like conditions in the bedrock.   And sometimes coins, that happened to be in the proximety of the rotting iron/steel object, get fused in with the mass.   So when you pull them up, you can sometimes see the rims of coins sticking out at you.

This is because for these formations to form, it has to be an un-moving still-object.  Because if it were loose, and moving in and with the seasonal regular sand movement, it would be tumbled clean and erode to nothing eventually (since steel and iron rust fast in harsh salt water environment).   But when the rusting object is stuck in the bedrock (or way far back in the dunes where storms haven't gotten back to in 50 or 100+ yrs.), they just decompose into these interesting growing shapes, incorporating in what's around them.   And since bedrock like this, is often the depth to which coins since too (since they can't sink further than bedrock), thus you often find multiple nails, and some coins, all fused together, since they all tend to find themselves at this level, over time.

Then at some point, a storm erodes down to bedrock, and these things get released into the regular inter-tidal zone.  Then you come along and find it within a few years

The reason I tell you all this, is that I'm convinced the process does not take THAT long to happen.   I have seen, for example, mere wheaties or buffalos (relatively recent drops) fused with such masses.   And the iron itself, might be a RR spike for instance.  (definate tell-tale RR spike, NOT a ship spike of some sort).  And since the RR's didn't lace CA till the 1870s at the earliest, you can see that these things don't necessarily have to be that old (ie.: mission era, etc...)

Thus you may simply have a 1950s butter knife, for instance.   JMHO.

JMHO,

Thank you for your insight.  It is information like this that I need for this and other objects that I might find.  Of course one of the reasons I want to know more about this object is 'what else should I be looking for near' where I found this object. 

I have had some friends tell me that this process would only take about 5 years but I know they are mistaken.  The hunt for this object's real age will be be good for me.  I will learn a lot of history in the process and make a few friends also.

If you would like to look at the 'encrusted knife' please let me know.

Mitchel

Mitch, I know it's exciting when you find your first fossilized piece of rotting iron like that, but trust me:  once you've found hundreds of them, you just pitch them in the trash.  We unfondly call them "submarine parts", and pitch them in the trash.   Only when they have coin stuck in them, do we save them.   I've got some saved, where I've never dis-lodged the coins (just to save the cool effect, and keep the guessing game up of what the coin might be).  Other times, you can see enough of the coin protruding, to see that it's a merc, or a memorial, or a buffalo, etc....    But if it's just the iron alone, it's just junk.  No need to "date it", if it's most likely just 50 or 100 yr. old spike, nails, butter knives, etc....   If they really excite you, I've got a bunch I'll sell you for cheap

There are numerous wrecks along the coast...and its said that Spain (Philippine) has a record of all ships lost along the Pacific coast line of North and South America...

Apparently there are known galleon wreck sites that cannot be identified or connected to the Spanish records...which isn't all that unusual.

I wasn't aware of a wreck near Catalina, but there are several within the channel island chain.

I know this is a older thread, just had to throw in my 2 cents
A few galleon wrecks around Catalina,
Santa Marta-1582, on return trip from Manila to Acapulco
Nuestra Senora de Ayuda-1641, on return trip from Manila to Acapulco
San Sebastian-1754, Manila going to Philippines, chaced by pirate George Compton into the rocks just west of Catalina.
San Pedro ?,

[TO]

yes cal, a few manilla galleons wrecks along the west coast.   For 150+ yrs, there were about 2 ships per year, that made the round trip voyage.  So 300+ manilla galleons caught site of the west coast somewhere around the parallel of SF (where the currents swept them westwards to).  Then once the spotted land, they'd turn south on their way back to Mexico.  That was from the mid1500s to the mid 1700's.  Some were lost and never heard from again.

There was one found along the Baja CA coast a few decades ago, because beach-goers kept finding all sorts of old porcelin showing up on the beach, after beach storm erosion, on a super remote section of Baja CA beach.   Research was done, and it was determined that it had been one of the galleons.   But get this:  try as they may, they found nothing but mostly broken up porcelin wares.

Because you see, unlike the mel fisher type stuff, our west coast galleon traffic was not for the purpose of shipping gold and silver.   Oh sure, the traders might have taken gold or silver TO Manilla, for the purposes of BUYING the trade items, but on their return trip to the USA, they'd have only had the raw materials, cargo, and such that they'd gone to get, in the first place.  So it'd be things like silk, spices, porcelins, etc.....   So unfortunately, not very exciting for modern th'ing purposes.

I get what your saying Tom, most of my research material just say they contained "Far East treasures" and no salvage attempts were made.
all except the San Sebastian which was rumored to contain gold & silver bullion.

I will have a new picture of the 'unencrusted' knife in the next week or so ... I can't tell exactly what it is now but about the Spanish ships.  I was talking with one guy I met who was familiar with the ships around Florida and the ships of Mexico and he said that the Pacific ships were much larger.  He told me about the one in Baja and mentioned some other locations.  How many ships were never found going to or coming back from the Phils and China?

MitcheIN, I read somewhere that for nearly 200 yrs. (mid or late 1500s, to mid or late 1700s) there was an average of 1 or 2 manilla galleon trips per year, from Mexico, to Manilla, and back.  So do the math, and you can see there's ...... what ..... 300 to 400 such voyages.   And there was record of how many of those were lost and never heard from again.   But even if you found the citation of how many of those went missing (because I'm sure the records exist), it still wouldn't do you much good.  Not only did they carry nothing back exact non-metalic trade goods (china, porcelin, spices, tea, silk, etc...) But also because they could have gone down in the middle of the ocean.  That is, any "missing" ships weren't necessarily beaches, ala mel fisher style, along our coast.  

And another thing that separates our coastal shipwrecks from the type you see on the "treasure" beaches of the gulf of mexico type beaches:   The off-shore sandy shallows in the gulf of Mexico there are "accidents waiting to happen".   There are sections of beach there were you can wade off shore, and still only be up to your chest in water, weeeaaay out there.  Contrast to most CA beaches (esp. NW facing ones), and the water drops off to deeep drops real quickly.   So the geography, types of shipping (ie.: cargo they contained), history, and off-shore topography is vastly different, and not condusive here for the type stuff you read about that's been found in the gulf of Mexico.  

For a very short time during the gold rush, there was shipments of gold, by ship, back around the horn going eastward.   But by the mid 1800s, go figure, ships were no longer the wooden galleon type affairs.  They'd be more seaworthy metal ships.  Still though, some of them were lost.  But again, nothing like what you read about for the gulf of mexico.   You'd need deep sea submarine recovery techniques to reach these wrecks!  And this gold-rush era shipping was very short-lived, as the transcontinental RR put an end to that soon thereafter.

And hey, if you want some more fossilized iron conglomorates to muse over (wondering if they're spanish, etc...), you ought to see how many such whatzits show up after storms here on the Monterey bay.  We get to where we don't even dig the large hubcap type signals, because we already know they're going to be those "submarine" parts.   Trust me:   they're modern junk, that quickly takes on blob form after decades in the salt water brine.

"For a very short time during the gold rush, there was shipments of gold, by ship, back around the horn going eastward.   But by the mid 1800s, go figure, ships were no longer the wooden galleon type affairs.  They'd be more seaworthy metal ships.  Still though, some of them were lost.  But again, nothing like what you read about for the gulf of mexico.   You'd need deep sea submarine recovery techniques to reach these wrecks!  And this gold-rush era shipping was very short-lived, as the transcontinental RR put an end to that soon thereafter."

Winfield Scott-1853, Channel islands. it has been hunted and picked, but you cant touch that no more.
Yankee Blade-1854 thats another story.
lots of stuff to dream about, & I don't see anyone asking for funding..... So Tom cant we all dream a little 

Ok, I have now uploaded the unencrusted knife or blade pictures and I am still puzzled.  The weight is 13 ounces.  It seems heavier than what a steel blade of equal size would be.  The blade 'edge' is rough or pitted and the sides are not of a polished texture.  The encrustment was removed with vinegar only over the period of about 6 weeks.  I will keep it and wonder who can help to tell me if in fact it was a discarded aircraft part or some type of tool or knife blade.

https://picasaweb.google.com/101421...Knife?authkey=Gv1sRgCOrk9MO2koL-5gE

Mitchel

mitchel, thanx for loading the pix.   Good photography.

Is it possible it's just a random steel object?   Like even a hand-held garden machette or sickle type thing, of modern origin.   Or just random household iron debri (like the kind of stuff that used to get mixed in with rip-rap concrete and stuff when corps of engineers used to go load up material on the beach in an effort to stem seawall erosion, etc...).   Random demolition household industrial type debri, when exposed on one side to the abrasive action of surf, to attain a knife like sharp end.   I've even seen RR spike type stuff, for instance, take on a nearly needle like sharp tip point, because it got eroded at one end (sticking up out of bedrock), while the other end remained embedded until dislodged during storms.   

And if truly a knife, might it not simply be a modern kitchen knife?   People take knifes to the beach all the time in their picnic lunches.  Hence the reason silver wear is such a common find on beaches, d/t picnics.   The same would hold true for knifes, if they brought them.

When I hold this piece of metal I am not given to the impression of it being any type of kitchen knife.  One of the reasons I wanted to leave it encrusted was because it would help to age it.  Now that it is gone down to bare metal it has a sound, weight and texture which is not like a normal knife.  Under the exterior patina is a silver metal that seems much denser than any stainless steel that I could imagine.  I will find someone locally that will know metals better than me who can give me some ideas.  A teacher I know and an engineering friend are my first choices to show it to now.

Mitchel,
Excellent job on the photos!
Have you thought of a ab bar (abalone pry bar)? The shape of the blade with it being either broken or erroded away would hold close to the ab bars we had back in the early 60s. Might be one fashioned earlier if you're find was in an area that abalone were. Even though there aren't any abalone there in shallow water today there possibly were tons long ago. Places we used to wade to get legal sized abs today are completely void of them.

That might be a good suggestion.  This 'knife' was found near LAX in the shallows there.  I don't know the possible abalone in the area in the past before the airport expanded.  Still of great interest to me would be some sort of estimate on how long it would take for that item to become encrusted.  Is that a process of 10 years or 50 years?  The age and make of the item itself would be something on a time line separate from how long it was in the water.  As you suggested, I had thought that this could have been an item that dropped over the side of a sail boat or cruiser that had be anchored near.  This could have been long before they dredged Marina Del Rey or sometime after.  It has stimulated me to do some research about the area, about the artifact and musing about other things that have nothing to do with the item itself.  Thanks for your interest and taking time to write a reply.

That's one of the best things about this hobby! You find things, then do the research and end up with a pile of interesting information and knowledge.

You might try and see what company dredged Marina Del Rey to find out where they dumped. Years back when Shellmaker dredged Newport Harbor my buddy & I made friends with one of the guys. He set us up with a chart showing where they were removing material & where they were pumping it out to build up the beaches around Balboa & Lido. The real bummer was most of it was dumped out past where the Wedge is. As far as deterioration etc. Try taking a visit to the Natural History Museum in LA. They used to be really eager to help answer questions & help. The plus was even if they couldn't offer much help you got some of the areas you'd (public) nevver see otherwise. Also, pay a visit to Bowers museum in Santa Ana. They were a good source of help too.

Mitch, you say: 

" ....Still of great interest to me would be some sort of estimate on how long it would take for that item to become encrusted.  Is that a process of 10 years or 50 years? ...."

Yes:  as little as 50 yrs.   As I said above:  I have found these encrustation iron blob thingies that even have coins fused into them, that are as recent as copper memorials.  Nothing but a rim of the coin sticks out, till you break it apart, to reveal the coins.   Or as I said before, more recognizable items like RR spikes (which ..... even after much corrosion, the shape is immistakable  )   And since RR's are VERY datable, to find the time-line when the RR reaches various parts of the state (in the case of RR tracks going right past the beach front, where the spike was found at), it becomes a no-brainer to be able to say:  "This had to be lost sometime after 1882" or whatever.   And from that date, and looking at the level of corrosion, I can safely tell you that these crustation blobs can be fairly recent, and in no way necessarily "spanish", or whatever era.

Ok, over 50 years is a good starting answer for me.  Some of my friends had told me less than 10 years and I don't know how that could be.

Near LAX?  Maybe aircraft related?

Near LAX?  Maybe aircraft related?

LAX Airport for approximate reference only...Million to one odds if related to aircraft...airport still inland of the coast.

Google Earth or Thomas Bros maps will provide a better picture.