THE RETURN OF THE GIANTSERPENT

[would]

Kanabite wrote

besides ,the worst day in the hills , still beets the best day at work

Dang buddy I was about to say "ditto" and truer words have not been written, but then a few memories of extremely  bad days in the tall tules came to mind and I had to think about it.  After sober reflection, comparing several days and nights of being soaked to the bone and unable to get a fire going, no food, bitter cold and driving winds to the very best day at work, <shudder, sigh> I guess I have to say that I would take the cold hungry soaking in the wilderness over work.    Sheesh what does that say about US?   
Oroblanco
 

For anybody who thinks that shadow signs are figments of people's imaginations, I present the face of Coronado. It has been called the face of Christ, but it bears an uncanny resemblance to the bust of Coronado. The reason I say that, is because this is in the Coronado National Forest in Southern Arizona.

The first picture is plain, while the second one is shadow enhanced to bring out the dark lines around the face.

Best Mike

It has been told to me that this is neat but only plants make this up. NOT SO! Here is another view from the left side that accidentally happened to pick up the face.

Mike

[would]

Kanabite wrote

besides ,the worst day in the hills , still beets the best day at work

Dang buddy I was about to say "ditto" and truer words have not been written, but then a few memories of extremely  bad days in the tall tules came to mind and I had to think about it.  After sober reflection, comparing several days and nights of being soaked to the bone and unable to get a fire going, no food, bitter cold and driving winds to the very best day at work, <shudder, sigh> I guess I have to say that I would take the cold hungry soaking in the wilderness over work.    Sheesh what does that say about US?   
Oroblanco
 

Lousy jobs?

Mike, I agree that shadow signs exist and have been used stratregically, although I wouldn't classify the 'Coronado' face as a shadow sign - more of an example of pareidolia (natural shape that looks like another object).  Some of these phenomena have been used also, but I'd say that 98% of the pictures of same posted on TN are merely interesting-looking rocks, not 'treasure markers'.  Below is what I would call a shadow sign - the shadow profile of a helmeted face with the tip of the nose resting on 'happy man', a rather important petroglyph for reasons that are beyond the scope of the current discussion.

It seems to me that the only way to tell if something in a natural phenomena or not is to have an unbaised expert in recognizing tooling marks examine the rocks carefully and make a determination.

Unless that is done, there are too many questions for me to accept something as proof.

Mike, I agree that shadow signs exist and have been used stratregically, although I wouldn't classify the 'Coronado' face as a shadow sign - more of an example of pareidolia (natural shape that looks like another object).  Some of these phenomena have been used also, but I'd say that 98% of the pictures of same posted on TN are merely interesting-looking rocks, not 'treasure markers'.  Below is what I would call a shadow sign - the shadow profile of a helmeted face with the tip of the nose resting on 'happy man', a rather important petroglyph for reasons that are beyond the scope of the current discussion.

Too much detail to not really be there. I know exactly what pareidolia is, and to a good part, I agree with you.  Buuuut, I see that you haven't seen much from this site. This is part of a canyon a little ways West of the Tumacacori Mission in Az. There are a lot of markings and monuments in this canyon. Like this owl.

Best-Mike

[would]

Kanabite wrote

besides ,the worst day in the hills , still beets the best day at work

Dang buddy I was about to say "ditto" and truer words have not been written, but then a few memories of extremely  bad days in the tall tules came to mind and I had to think about it.  After sober reflection, comparing several days and nights of being soaked to the bone and unable to get a fire going, no food, bitter cold and driving winds to the very best day at work, <shudder, sigh> I guess I have to say that I would take the cold hungry soaking in the wilderness over work.    Sheesh what does that say about US?   
Oroblanco
 

Lousy jobs?

naw Steve , i got a great job , good pay and all that .I even get told once in a while I'm good at it . just prefer the time spent in the hills over a day at work . just hope that the work holds out in these rather trying times , ya know.

interesting discussion , i like  both of your guy's pictures .
both worth investigating further . ya know its hard to tell from just a picture someone posts what may or may not be. pareidolia VS petromania [sp], {and thank you  Mesa where ever you are for that last one }the debate will continue i am sure . but I'll give you both credit considering the sources . i for one do not know all there is to know ,  I'll be the first to admit it . but i do enjoy broadening possibilities in the search . Steve i remember a few years ago you had inquired somewhere else as to where you might obtain the book i started this topic about . if you are still interested please email me with a mailing address and i will send one to you . free of charge . here is the address achopa2@yahoo.com i have been given a few on CD with the fancy label to give to those i think might want it .

[Lousy jobs?]

Springfield wrote

Lousy jobs?

No, several jobs have been downright pleasant, one even had good pay to boot.  It is a matter of what the heart wants, and what feels like "home".  For some it is purely a matter of money, in which case the job would surely top any pursuit of lost treasures.

What about you Springfield, would you trade the best day at work for the worst day in the boonies?  Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

[Lousy jobs?]

Springfield wrote

Lousy jobs?

No, several jobs have been downright pleasant, one even had good pay to boot.  It is a matter of what the heart wants, and what feels like "home".  For some it is purely a matter of money, in which case the job would surely top any pursuit of lost treasures.

What about you Springfield, would you trade the best day at work for the worst day in the boonies?  Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

Well, guys, I've also been fortunate with my work situation - generally pretty interesting work, great bosses and decent pay.  Dealing with the growing incompetence of bureaucrats has been the stressful downside, but ... oh, well.

I don't know which was my worst day in the boonies - thought I might die a couple times due to either freezing lost in the snow for days or lack of water in the sun (love New Mexico!).  Finding a man's body half-eaten by a mountain lion one day was a downer too. 

Overall, I agree with you Roy - I prefer seperating myself from the structured world.  The inspiration, spontaneity and feeling of life of the natural world wins hands down over the cage, not matter how comfortable the cage may be.  Chasing down mysteries in the canyons is an added bonus.

well then it looks like we agree, personally i am just thankful to still have a job . its been really iffy lately . seems like even the rich states are running out of unemployment benefits , and i'm just a little too old to have to move back in with the folks if disaster strikes . anyway Steve , I'll send you the book if you would like , or maybe you already got a hold of it , but the offer stands .

 getting back to this discussion , personally i don't think a shadow symbol on a more native looking petroglyph is at all beyond  the scope of this discussion . in fact it is probably right on topic , in lieu of the things that have been said here ,  but i under stand if you do not wish to elaborate . i am going to have to look through some old pictures on another hard drive and see if i can find one or two that might be candidates for this type of symbol you have hinted at .thanks guys , this is a big forum and i am not really in my element here so its been kind of nice not having stones thrown in this direction .  

wait it was the glyph you hinted at , sorry . ya he is best talked about over coffee , at Starbucks , in person . "happy man " ?, i would guess he probably has more names than that . and i believe he gets around , maybe even  a world traveler some might say .

Very neat post I have read the book Treasure of Tumicacari (I think I remember it right) after finding it with an Inter Library Loan. Had a few of the rock wall pictures of Christ, or Francisco Cordova, or .........whoever it is in it. A very interesting read if you can find it.

.... Steve i remember a few years ago you had inquired somewhere else as to where you might obtain the book i started this topic about . if you are still interested please email me with a mailing address and i will send one to you . free of charge . here is the address achopa2@yahoo.com i have been given a few on CD with the fancy label to give to those i think might want it .

Thanks for the offer, kanabite, but I already have a copy of the book.

Hey Native,

Do you mean "Enigma at Tumacacori" by Gary Oliver? None of the monuments are in that book. Gary doesn't believe in monuments. All he bases his entire belief in are those "Star" drill holes. Put a dowel rod in and look where it points. Well, those drill holes and the Molina Document and Map. I personally think that Gary is a little off the mark, but you have to admire his sticktoitiveness. He has spent 31 years researching and working that site. That says a lot about the man. Last time we talked, I think his spending was somewhere around $200,000.

Best-Mike

Mike,

Trying to remember, but it seems your opinion of Gary Oliver and his "find" has.......evolved somewhat, over the years.

Take care,

Joe

Mike,

Trying to remember, but it seems your opinion of Gary Oliver and his "find" has.......evolved somewhat, over the years.

Take care,

Joe

It has somewhat. Not a 180, or anything like that, but a little. We have talked and corresponded extensively, and I have spent a lot of time down in Tumacacori. I will say that there are numerous monuments and markers in Javelina Canyon. I'm still not 100% convinced about the Molina Document or Map, but from many things I have seen and read, I lean toward them being authentic. After reading them, and learning what I have about Jesuits, I think it is possible for them to be heavily coded.

My biggest problem with all the monuments and markers are that they are mostly things that the Spanish would understand. Why would the Jesuits, who were hiding their wealth from the Spanish, use markers to their hiding places that the Spanish would understand? They were much smarter than that.

Best-Mike

Yes, it is titled the Enigma of Tumacocori. Thanks for the reminder. Very interesting book, and I enjoyed the research he has done, and put into it.

Joe,

Another thing. My previous opinion of Gary's find was formed by my lack of experience on that mountain versus his many years there. When in that situation, I ALWAYS give the benefit of the doubt to those with more experience than myself (who aren't totally whacked out). As I spent more time in the mountains there, I learned a lot more, and my opinions changed somewhat.

Best-Mike

May all of you find that Treasure you seek and Happy New year....It's out there....Darrell

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well while we are listening i would like to ask a question of you guys , especially you Oro. does anyone know anything about the background of this map ? its from the online directory of the little museum associated with the lost Dutchman stuff i think . i really might seem like i am going off on a tangent here , but not really .

Hello Everyone
 No one seems to know much about the Sleeping Squaw Lady Map. Can anyone help hear with any leads as to where it might have come from. Thanks.
FEMF

FEMF,

If I wanted information on this subject, I would contact Greg Davis at: gregevdavis@webtv.net

My guess is that he has a complete folder on the story.

Good luck!

Take care,

Joe

FEMF,

If I wanted information on this subject, I would contact Greg Davis at: gregevdavis@webtv.net

My guess is that he has a complete folder on the story.

Good luck!

Take care,

Joe

Hello Joe
 Thanks, I'll do that.
FEMF

Good afternoon my friends.   Sheesh Aztlan is from Atlantis.  The final jumping off place from Europe was off of the coast of France, the 'Place of the reeds'. From there they migrated to North America.

Possibly the lost Tribe

Israel > Mediterranean > Atlantis > Reedy place off of the coast of France > Eastern North America > Western North America >  present Mexico.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s.  Shall WE??

Good afternoon my friends.   Sheesh Aztlan is from Atlantis.  The final jumping off place from Europe was off of the coast of France, the 'Place of the reeds'. From there they migrated to North America.

Possibly the lost Tribe

Israel > Mediterranean > Atlantis > Reedy place off of the coast of France > Eastern North America > Western North America >  present Mexico.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s.  Shall WE??

Hi real , mi amigo.

   i don't know
about what happened before the western north American part of your timeline .
it starts to get really weird depending on just how far back in time your are willing
to go . the stuff that survived the conquest , is open to interpretation , and has been victim of poetic licence ,
by those who probably did not want that information disclosed for whatever reason .


and CJ, are you mad at me ? i asked that question along time ago , and no one answered , i would like to know the source of that hand drawn map too.
now that guy is going to wonder just what is up with all these folks emailing him , asking question , sheeesh ......
{just kidding , thanks }

kanabite,

Sorry, I must have missed your asking.  Here is another suggestion for anyone interested in this story:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine....hp?f=6&t=630&hilit=sleeping

Bit of discussion there.

Take care,

Joe

Evening Kanabite my friend:  You posted --> it starts to get really weird depending on just how far back in time your are willing
*********
So true, there is room for both of our theories in here.

Don Jose de La Mancha

CJ , thank you again ,i have not located volume 22 yet , but i did find some of your home work on the Net. like i said before the only reference of that map i have run across seems to give credit for its creation to an Indian , kind of vague I know 

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb...eth%20Correspondence%20Combined.pdf

and evening to you too Real / aka Don Jose
 its is not that I am against the Atlantis theory , it is that i just do not know . even your time line may go back farther than Israel or whenever , one might say they originated .
I would be of the opinion that their,  shall we say more pagan fingerprints left behind , may have originated , long  before what we typically associate with Israelites , as a nation or people . I'll have to check back on this topic in a day or so . when I am not locked in a hotel room in need of some sleep . i seem to be babbling again . LOL

[volume 22]

Kanabite,

"CJ , thank you again ,I have not located volume 22 yet , but I did find some of your home work on the Net. Like I said before the only reference of that map I have run across seems to give credit for its creation to an Indian , kind of vague I know"

You will need to jog my fading memory a bit here.   Did you mean  "Mapa de Cuauhtinchan No. 2"?

Joe

oh , see what happens when i type  and I should have went to bed .

no the volume 22 was from the link you posted , i believe it is where the story about the sleeping lady squaw map , is discussed . i'm not up to speed with all you guys who hunt the lost Dutchman .  please forgive me . anyway i think it said the story was in volume 22 of the superstition mountain journal . now i need to go back and read the link again , to see what year . i could not locate that story on the Net .. this topic has sat idle for a while , but back on page one i posted these pictures . first the mirror image of that map and then this picture i took . as far as that Aztec stuff i think i have images of most anything that is available , without breaking into an archive anyway .

HMMM  Fascinating.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Gentlemen,

The drawing is from the John Burbridge Collection that was copied by Greg Davis.  There were three letters from a lady named Ramona S. Flores.  The sketch was in one of the letters.

It is possible to purchase Volume 22 of the "Superstition Mountain Journal" from the Superstition Mountain Museum for around $5 or so.  Greg wrote the article and included a topographic insert of the location he believes the drawing fits.

My information comes from my own copy of Volume 22.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

ya see now that's is what i would call progress < thanks Joe .
now i have a little investigating to do on this thing . does anyone know if the original letters are in the museum ?
 i guess i'm going to have to send mr Davis a letter and inquire .
i have never really had all that much faith in the pencil on white paper maps that appear in treasure hunting books. but that could change , i guess . i am really more interested in the autenticity of this one map , and if the original was drawn by a native  squaw , or just what . hey i don't know if that little hill i took a picture of and that map are related , but they might be . that little hill was in the middle of something else i was working on , and something clicked in my brain to try and compare the two . and i guess i might be guilty of manipulating the data by using a mirrior image , o well , thanks again CJ!! .///bob

[guess]

Bob,

Copies of the letters, from what I gathered, were kept in Greg's files.  My guess is that he would be happy to send them to you.

Let me know how that turns out.

Take care,

Joe

i will do that and

VISIONS OF AZTLAN....some pictures ..........and the "WIZARD'S STONE CHAIR".....Darrell

MORE..........."The Spirits of Darkness Guards this Place and Keep It as Their Own"...The Ley Hunter, # 90, Spring, 1981.........Darrell

"A Seeker of silences Am I, .....and what Treasure have I found in silences that I may dispense with confidence?".....Kahlil Gibran, 1923, "THE PROPHET"......Darrell

Priceless mi amigo , priceless...

bump
great read

Wow!  Snidely, the middle canyon is incredible.  I enlarged a few of the photos and took a look...just like you said it was.  Not that I ever doubted but this is the first time I've seen these pics.  Makes me wonder what other pics in got in that shoe box of yours.




Two Forks

These threads are awesome! Thanks to all who are sharing the stories of our ancestors!! Digging them up is honoring them, in my mind, or else their memories will be gone. How do remember the passed if we are not allowed to dig up the evidence of their existences'?
Govt. control of this hobby is ridiculous. This is corporate smiting of history, and I pray it does not continue.
 Sitchen has some great evidence linking the Olmec's and the science of the Americas to their Sumerian roots. Maccu Picchu and the ziggerauts scattered throughout the Yucatan Peninsula offer significant evidence of the Sumerian link,  Sitchen offers 200 more pages of evidence, complete with locations of the artifacts and writings used to postulate his theories.
This should link to chapter 8, entitled "Where The Sun Also Rises".
http://books.google.com/books?id=Aa...g=PA224#v=onepage&q&f=false