Harvest a deer with stone point help?

 Hello knappers
 I was talking with thirty7 about an idea I had. I would like to harvest a deer this season with my compound bow and use a stone point. OK why a compound and not traditional. First my skill level is very good with a compound and poor with traditional. Second I want to insure the correct fps and kinetic energy to get a dbl lung shot for a quick kill. Third I feel and this is the hard part I want to use a carbon arrow to handle the speed of the bow.
Sounds impossible.It might be but that's why I am here.
I am not worried about the union between the two being primitive.My goal is to study the cut penetration and hopefully impact fracture.
So what type point? Maybe a disputed type. A common found south eastern snapped stem. This would give the strength of the shaft pushing the point. Thirty7 suggested taking the animal at around 20 feet.I  think this is  smart due to the fletchings usually having a right helical twist. And I do not want to have a warble.
What do you guys suggest. Any knappers think this is plausible to marry the the point to shaft?
 I will happily pay for the point or can dig one out of a frame but think i need say a fresh hard material (sharp).
 Yay or Nay?
 I have some wooden shafts but they are to short for my draw length.Hmmmmm
Thanks everyone
TnMountains

Interesting experiment! While I don't hunt critters, I have always been fascinated by those that had to live off the land.As a long time artifact hunter, I find a considerable number of average sized "arrowheads" to be in reality knives and atlatl points(shortish , mechanically assisted hand  launched spears) Most point types are going to be too large/heavy to penetrate at much distance.I read somewhere that at a lot of buffalo kill sites, the points were found to be approx. 1/2" long on average.
  The use of carbon fiber shafts may give a different effect if you are trying to replicate ancient arrowhead impact fractures.I am certainly no expert on the topic, but am very interested in the results you obtain! Physical limitations keep me from drawing a bow much anymore, but I will be looking forward to your posts come bow season! Good luck, and HH!

Sounds like a good challenge. I think it could be done rather easily with good results, freshly knapped edges on flint and obsidian are sharper than steel. I'd start with a narrow stemmed form ( lamoka, dickson for example) and pressure flake the stem until it fits snug into the arrow. You could use epoxy or strong glue for a better fit. You could even get fancy, and knapp a stemmed piece with notches and lash and bind that sucker on there. I've included a quick drawing to show what I'm talking about. Hope you can see the pencil lines.

In the second pic you could knapp the stem to marry the carbon fiber arrow.

Forgot to add, I'd be happy to knapp some stemmed points for you by hunting season, I wouldn't charge you anything. I'd be interested in the results. Let me work on it a bit, and try some designs. Problem is your gonna need several fixed arrows with similar weight, specs, to practice with. That arrowhead will break easy if it hits something solid.

Carbon fiber arrows would be the way to go here, preferably a light arrow to compensate for a 2-3 times heavier flint arrowhead. What's the draw weight on your bow? If say 70 lbs, I'd get some 55-60 lb arrows to balance it out. 

I was just thinking of the practice. If I stay sighted in with my broadheads(in case big boy comes by) I will be way off with a stone point ...unless I am very close then I have a pie size target to hit.
Right? I think I can drive it thru at say 20 feet. I was pulling around 73lbs but have backed off some due to a pulled muscle. I am going to have to think on this some as I will be elevated at least 20 feet unless I hunt from the ground. A twenty foot shot would be straight down and would have to be very precise,,hmmmm
 That is some fine drawings and I understand them completely. I would be happy to share some horns or artifacts for your efforts? Or knapp a couple and take a weekend and come hunt on my lease? Fill your freezer.

I was just thinking of the practice. If I stay sighted in with my broadheads(in case big boy comes by) I will be way off with a stone point ...unless I am very close then I have a pie size target to hit.
Right? I think I can drive it thru at say 20 feet. I was pulling around 73lbs but have backed off some due to a pulled muscle. I am going to have to think on this some as I will be elevated at least 20 feet unless I hunt from the ground. A twenty foot shot would be straight down and would have to be very precise,,hmmmm
 That is some fine drawings and I understand them completely. I would be happy to share some horns or artifacts for your efforts? Or knapp a couple and take a weekend and come hunt on my lease? Fill your freezer.

I would think that taking a shot from a stand would be best for this type of hunt. 1. because it would be easier to get a short distance to your target, and 2. a downward angle on the shot would fly better than a horizontal flight path. I'll do some knapping this weekend and get back to you. 

Alright Tn, making some progress here. Very narrow stemmed arrowheads is definitively the way to go here. In the first pic, the middle point locks in pretty solid with a gentle twist. You could probably get one dialed in tight without using some type of glue. One shot per arrow is all you'll probably get, because any solid impact will snap the stem, or offset the point. The point that fits is pretty thick, and beveled down to a point on 4 sides, it's a formidable sticker and actually well balanced with the arrow. I'd feel confidant out to 20 yards with this rig, little further from a treestand.

   Thirty7

 The points look fantastic ! It looks as if they will mate up very well. I like the fact that the base seems to be giving the point great strength. It propably will shatter at the base but I am thinking the point will have served its purpose by then in a quick dispatch. My plan is to carry the arrow and only  I repeat only if it looks like I will be presented with a very close shot will I knock that stone point. My goal is first to recover the animal and then the point. It looks is if it will do as good a job if not better than my razors. The kinetic energy will be fantastic.
 Thank you so much for using your skill. As with hunting it may never happen but if it does I will have pictures and meat in the freezer. My plan is to use a piece of flint and time how long it takes to dress one out. Something about these tools...........
 Would you accept in trade a set of horns from some previous harvest to use in your knapping ?  

Great job,just great.

Thanks
TnMountains

Some nice racks Tn. Trade sounds good, I could use a new pressure flaking tool ( dog is always running away with them) , lower tines on whitetail antlers are always good, the older the better. I've got some slab obsidian that I'll work into a point, it'll be sharper than the flint for sure. I'll leave a couple of the stems just a fraction wide so you can fit them. Any course stone will reduce them to a snug fit. A knife sharpening stone works well. Have a good one.

 Im pumped. I am trying to shoot at least once a day right now. Gettin in the groove. All the old,old racks are on the wall,lol.
 I appreciate your help so much.

TnMtns

now you have me wanting to do this hunting experiment.cant wait to here your results.Have you weighed a broadhead v. the weight of a flint dart.I know whenever i make any little adjustment to my equiptment/gear it can sometimes make a big difference,I am not really questioning,you seemed to have covered everything.are you going to practice with the flint darts.I may try this experiment but I am going to use a triangle point hafted to a short shaft(maybe 2 or 3 inches)and have that fit in the arrow shaft.I just think the weight of a triangle with coupling shaft would be more close to a modern broadhead than anything else,but who knows until you try it out.Didnt know you had knapping skills thirty7,pretty cool.

now you have me wanting to do this hunting experiment.cant wait to here your results.Have you weighed a broadhead v. the weight of a flint dart.I know whenever i make any little adjustment to my equiptment/gear it can sometimes make a big difference,I am not really questioning,you seemed to have covered everything.are you going to practice with the flint darts.I may try this experiment but I am going to use a triangle point hafted to a short shaft(maybe 2 or 3 inches)and have that fit in the arrow shaft.I just think the weight of a triangle with coupling shaft would be more close to a modern broadhead than anything else,but who knows until you try it out.Didnt know you had knapping skills thirty7,pretty cool.

I taught myself to knapp a few years back with the help of a book on the subject. Just as I was getting pretty comfortable and confident with it I started developing problems with my hands like carpel tunnel and took a few jabs through the leather that made me reconsider the hobby. I still do some knapping evey now and then but not like I used to. I tell you what though, it has helped me in hunting for authentic artifacts big time. Once you become familiar with a worked edge and cochoidal fractures from knapping yourself, seeing it and recognising the real stuff in the fields and creeks is alot easier.

 Yeah thirty7 did make some dandy points. 
Greg no on the practice part. It will have to be a close shot. That way any error I might have (wobble.flex,helical twist) will still keep me in the kill zone. Perfect shot for me would be a 1/4 away behind back shoulder. But it is not a perfect world in hunting so I will take my time. I either get the shot I want or I do not shoot.
 Yeah this will be fun.

TnMtns

Hey TN,

Man, you guys do get around. I have a fletching machine you can use.  It is old and may be home made. It has coils of wire that heat and then the feather is cut by the heated wire. The wire being bent in whatever shape you want your fletching to come out.
I had never seen one before so that may be the way they are all made. I'll get pics if I can still find it.
Then your hybrid would be some closer to an authentic recreation.
I too am interested in your experiment. It has always been a dream to build the bow, arrow, and point to take down a deer. Skinning with the flint knife is a great way to end your test.
There are a few Osage Orange trees I have access to that were one of the types used for bow building, back in the day. What a trip that would be.
Looks like you will have plenty of help, both moral and physical.
Now if the dang old deer will just cooperate.

BW

 Yeah man we got the deer but they never listen to me.Tried the deer whisper thing and they ran away??? I am ok with the rate of twist. I am thankful for all the help and suggestions. Appreciate the offer on the fletcher though but think I will be ok. Is it an old Jo-Jan? The whole thing will be fun. Thirty7 pulled some fine skills out and made some good points.
 I have turned the Osage orange on my lathe. Thats that spiky thing we call a horse apple tree right? They will make a fine primitive bow. I do not have time to learn to be to primitive,lol.
 Still diggin your wood weapons from africa.
TnMtns

Hello,I have skinned animals with obsidian,and will tell youit is far superior to any knife made today.The Buffalo I took,required five hours to skin(by myself)with three metal knives......I sure wished I had an obsidian one that day!!!!I have never used stone points to hunt although had a freind that did.He and I knapped the first points and matched them all down to the grains,for accurate consistent flight.He was already an accomplished bow maker and took many animals with his handcrafted bows.We also made our own arrows,I had made many to sell to tourists,but will tell you to make them to hunt with and shoot accuratly was a different story!!!We ....he got them all dialed in and took a deer the first time he went out.The next hunt with them was a bull elk I called in and he made a beutiful shot and the animal succumbed within 50 yards(he actually had a complete pass through,and if we had not seen the bull go down the trail left,well Stevie Wonder could have followed it!After that my freind hunted solely with stone points and took countless big game.I wish he were still around,he was killed several years ago.

i dunno if you already did your hunt, but somewhere i read the folsom point was probally the best tip created for a bow and arrow, even though the tech was not around back then.

i dunno if you already did your hunt, but somewhere i read the folsom point was probally the best tip created for a bow and arrow, even though the tech was not around back then.

 Chong
Not yet. The season opens Saturday and they are calling for rain. Normally rain would not be a problem but everything is already flooded. Some creeks crested at around 20 feet. This may be good news cause floods can make patterning the animals easier. Thirty7 knapped me some points to try. I am  only going to use the stone point if its a very up close chance.
 Yeah the folsum would be nice but I am not doing a pure primitive hunt as my skill is  in the compound not recurve.
TnMtns

TnMountains,
I'm surprised that that would even be legal!  Flint tips aren't allowed for hunting here in ND.

i dunno if you already did your hunt, but somewhere i read the folsom point was probally the best tip created for a bow and arrow, even though the tech was not around back then.

There are miniature Folsom points (and other Paleoindian points) that are thought to be too small to have been used on spears. Some of the miniature points are less than 1/2" long by 1/4" wide. Even though the bow and arrow technology wasn't supposed to have existed thousands of years ago, some have suggested that Folsom people used the miniature points for arrows and the larger points for spears/atlatl.  Other suggestions are that the miniature points were for children, or used in shamanistic rituals, etc.

Yep its legal. I just have to pull x amount of lbs is all. Says nothing about the projectile. The populations are so great that south of me in Ala and I think Ga  and possibly other states you may hunt with a spear or even just a bowie knife on Hogs . I think we have a resposibility to be humane and quick. Of course this attitude has only appreared in the  last 50 years out of 12,000 +.
 We will see it has to be  just right if not I will run a razor point thru like I always do and it will be  meat in my freezer or the community kitchens.  In Tennessee we can take about 12 or more deer per person. I have to take at least 7 this year to just fill freezers but we need to harvest over 100 does this year among 10 guys. Last year we only got about 60. In Alabama it used to be one deer a day for over three months.
 I also work with wildlife biologist and state officials on my tracts with around 4000 acres of private land.
HH
TnMtns

awesome, hey if you get a chance, take a before picture of the arrow, and if............ you end up using the point, and hopefully you will, take the after picture. and shooting a dead deer dont count
good fortune with the hunt TN

Not had a close enough shot yet. Saw about 18 Sunday but they came in from above me to eye level.To many eyes they busted me. Here is one off the trail cam. Its a ten still in velvet. Hopefully he will survive and breed another year or two.

Ok Guys and Gals
 It looks like I have failed with a stone point. I had six come in and could take the last one as they went by. I drew on it but it was a yearling so I passed. I will be muzzleloading for two weeks and then will have a few more days of Bow. If I fill my freezers I may attempt it again later in the season.
 Had high hopes and some great help and support. Thats hunting though. Thanks to all for the support and help Thirty7 especially.
 : (
 TnMtns..

That's the way it goes sometimes, good luck in the second leg of bow season.

like the trail cam shot,the one buck looked to have a pretty good spread on him.too bad we cant see the rack on the other buck.good stuff Tnmts.good luck when you get a chance to take that shot,you will eventually get one.i need to get motivated and get out in a stand,the freezer is empty.

so did u get one withe the muzzle loader?

Killed a fat doe today with some of my doe tags.There are some many nuts this year they get up and eat and lay back down. lol Bow opens again in a week I think. I will have to look. Anybody else out there doing any good?

TNmountains,

I killed a doe, Thanksgiving morning with one of my Knapped Flint points and home made arrow.  Shot 15 yards, with a 55lb Recurve Bow, out of a tree.  PM me your email and I'll send you a better discription and pictures if you want.

Best Regards,
3Creeks

TNmountains,

I killed a doe, Thanksgiving morning with one of my Knapped Flint points and home made arrow.  Shot 15 yards, with a 55lb Recurve Bow, out of a tree.  PM me your email and I'll send you a better discription and pictures if you want.

Best Regards,
3Creeks

You are the man ! I never got the shot. E-mail sent. I want to see the tools of the trade in action. Good job !
TnMountains

awesome, congrats to both of you!!!!!!!

 Hey guys, here are some of my hunting arrows and stone points. Also my hand sewn deerskin quiver. They ALL shoot well. A great combination, 62 pound Osage longbow, river cane shafts and Brazilian agate points around 170 grains. Enjoy, Stan Payne

  Sorry, still learning on here. Here is the rest. Stan Payne

Very impressive,wormansship.I have built both bows and arrows,quite an undertaking!Those are deadly and beutiful!!I would like to give those a try on an elk

 Thanks kuger, the arrows took 3 weeks to make. I cut the cane and straightened it myself. I sewed the quiver in 2 nights. Stan

Stansknives,

I love those stone points. (and I'm a flintknapper) Beautiful work on the finely serrated edges and parallel flaking. 

very fine work, thanks for posting.

Best Regards,
3 Creeks

 Stan Great pictures of your equiptment. I did not so well but some other members did. I have harvested some deer this year just was not meant to be with the bow. The osage orange bow did you make it? You have the ultimate primitive gear and in Ala its a deer a day for months
 Best of luck in your journeys.
TnMountains

  Thanks for the comments TnMountains. No, I did not make my bows, I traded my stone knives for them. I will send pics today. Here is a pic of a knife I made. Also, you can see lots of my work on my website   www.flintstoneandbonecreations.com  Stan Payne

Stunning!!I think I own one of your pieces.

      You may, what is your name? You can e mail me privately. There are to date 172 scattered across America and England and I am working on more as we speak! Stan Payne

I was given it as a tip,when I was guiding Mountain Lion hunts.I for the life of me cant remember the guys name.He was from back East,about 10 years ago

    This is the part where you remember! Stan

    This is the part where you remember! Stan

I am trying!I took hundreds of people throughout the years,and my memory just isnt what it once could have been!!

    I sincerely hope it will come to you. If so, let me know. BTW, I have 2 large cents just like that one on your profile. 1818, 1856, Stan

I love Large Cents.I was fortunate to have dug my first which was followed up by four more last year.They dont pop up that often here in California.The coin in my Avatar is a $10.00 gold coin I found last year as well

    Awesome! Try to remember, OK?

Stan
 That is amazing craftsmanship on your knifes and hunting gear. What talent you have.
 I have just completed and am working on the blade a Damascus hunter for skinning, I used a horn off of a deer I killed and bought the blade. It has been fun and will be a working knife. I left some pedicle on the base for grip. I now just  need to find a sheath!
 It fits the hand very well.
 My humble knife project.

wow stan how much do those knifes  retail for?
they look awesome man, great work...

Thanks Treefrog for you comments on my work. I work on these for many hours to complete one. No two are the same as all stones are different. I use materials from all over the world. I also sign and number each one after completion. I start my knife prices at $175 and up depending on the material. I currently have 2 available. Stan

Amazing work Stan. Do you sell the arrows? I'd be interesrted in one of those.

  Thanks for your comments Pickaway. I do sell my arrows from time to time. They take a LONG time to make. All my arrows are "Field Ready"! I pre shoot them before the point is added. I get $50 each for them. Stan