The Legend of John Swift's Lost Silver Mine - (geographical approach)

THE LEGEND OF SWIFT'S SILVER MINE
By James A. Dougherty
A Geographical Approach to the Legends of Silver Mine    



Southwestern Virginia, Southern West Virginia, Eastern Kentucky and Upper East Tennesseeall claim the mining of silver by one Swift, who is variously called "John", "George", "William",and "Tom". North Carolina and Pennsylvania are claimed by many as Swift's headquarters in his mining operations. Of the many legends concerning the mine(s), all seem to fall generally into two categories: the "Kentucky Legends" and the "Clinch Legends". By word "Kentucky", reference is made to all the legends which place the mine(s) of Swift in the present states of Kentucky or West Virginia, including the headwaters of the Big Sandy, the Kentucky, the Cumberland the Red Rivers. By the "Clinch Legends", reference is made to the area drained by the Clinch River and its tributaries in East Tennessee and Southwest Virginia.

For practical purposes, the division of the large area by watersheds is a better way of grouping the stories into categories than to follow state lines. Further investigation also reveals that there are many so-called "fringe areas" that have, by virtue of their own geography, a peculiar version of Swift's mining exploits, although all of the stories basically fall into the Clinch and Kentucky grouping. Among the Kentucky legends one may further derive a different account of the legend for each of the major watersheds in Eastern Kentucky: the Red River, the Cumberland, the Kentucky, and the Big Sandy. These four major rivers may further be divided into tributaries which have a peculiar version of the legend. For example, the Tug Fork Levisa (Louisa) Fords of the Big Sandy have their own separate accounts of Swift's mine, the Levisa Fork claiming Dickenson Co., VA, and Floyd Co. and Pike Co., KY, as the location of Swift's Mine, and the Tug Fork being assumed by residents of Buchanan Co., VA, and northern Pike Co., KY, as Swift's seat of operations. Although they have not necessarily been the origin of different accounts of the Mine Story. John's Creek (Levisa Fork) and Rockhouse Creek (Tug Fork) have seen their share of prospectors roaming the creek banks in search of Swift's smelter.      

Similarly, the Kentucky River Basin may be subdivided into isolated regions where much searching for the mine has been conducted. The different small creeks and valleys are almost too numerous to name without compiling an atlas of Kentucky, so only two will be mentioned here. They are the Red Bird River, sometimes called the Red Bird Fork of the Kentucky, and Devil's Creek, a branch of the Kentucky in Wolfe Co. Also in Wolfe County is Swift's Camp Creek, a branch of the Red River, so named because Swift supposedly had his silver mining camp located there. A so-called "fringe" area of the Kentucky mine material is Bell Co., KY, in the Cumberland watershed. It has been the seat of much searching for the mine, although there is little material to substantiate a claim that the mine is there.      

In the Clinch area, conflicting accounts of the legend are not so various, but fairly close to the original source. Tazewell County is the exception to the amazing regularity in the Clinch legends . Tazewell County story is considered a Clinch story, no because of the similarity of the basic story, but simply because it is included in the Clinch Valley watershed. Actually, Tazewell has been the scene of much prospecting for Swift's Silver, especially along the ridges north of the Clinch, but the folklore of the County says little or nothing of Swift or his associates. The reason it must be considered a fringe area and contradictory to the Clinch hypothesis is that a very small vein of silver, which some called Swift's Silver Mine, was discovered near Jeffersonville, the present town of Tazewell. (1) The Clinch version is concerned mainly with Scott and Wise Counties, VA, although the area of Claiborne and Hancock counties, TN, has been mentioned by some.    

In Kentucky there are at least three creeks named "Rockhouse," presumably for a peculiar rockhouse found on the banks of each. The mention of a peculiar rockhouse in nearly all the legends or the mine may cause one to surmise that these creeks were more likely to be named thus because those who first named them may have been aware of, or looking for, a peculiar rockhouse. (2)Tug Fork of the Big Sandy River was so named because Swift bored holes in some silver pigs and put a tug through them to tie them together. He is thought to have dropped some of these in a fork of the Sandy while crossing it under the fire of Indians, hence the name "Tug Fork". (3)At Pound Gap are many caves and Swift is supposed to have stored silver pig in the largest one of them. Past the Gap, on the Virginia side of Pine Mountain, there was a natural corridor formed by the lower ridges which could easily be barricaded to form a natural pound for Swift's horses, hence the name "Pound" and "Pound Gap". This explanation is used in both the Kentucky and Clinch narratives.      

The only settlement from existing in the area (Swift mined somewhere between 1750 and 1770) was Castle's Camp (now Castlewood, VA). Another famous landmark supposedly used by Swift was the Wilderness Trail of Daniel Boone. Here follows a list of some of the places commonly associated with the mine legends:    

Rivers: Clinch and Guest, Powell, Red, Red Bird, Kentucky, Cumberland, Big Sandy - Levisa and Tug Forks, Upper Yadkin Creeks: Swift Camp, Upper and Lower Devil's, Big Stoney, Hoot-Owl Branch, Rockhouse, Indian, Bear Pen, Bull Run, John's, Paint      
Towns: Paintsville, Campton, Mount Sterling, Glen Cairn, Alexandria, Fort Pitt, Castlewood, Pound, Fort Blackmore, Jeffersonville (Tazewell), Norton, Maysville      
Gaps: Moccasin, Pound, Breaks of the Sandy, Nancy's, Little and Big Stone Mountains and Ridges: Clinch, Sandy, Cumberland, Pine, Stone      
Counties: Wise, Scott, Russell, Dickenson, Tazewell, Buchanan of Virginia; Letcher, Pike, Magoffin, Bell, Wolfe, Clarke, Morgan of Kentucky; Claiborne, Hancock, Hawkins of Tennessee.      

Perhaps, with the geography of the area in mind, a look at the legends will be more meaningful. The Account of Swift' Silver Mine According to the Kentucky Legends. The basic approach to the story of Swift peculiar to the Kentucky versions may be seen best through two good examples of Kentucky narrative. A narrative referring to particular events in more detail than any other is the story of John Swift narrated by Alley's Journal. This story is not necessarily more accurate than the others, nor can Alley's copy of Swift's Journal be ascertained to be the original Swift Journal, but the account is very complete. Here follows a paraphrase of the story in Alley's Journal:      

In the spring of 1760 a preliminary journey was made by Swift, Hazlitt, Ireland, Blackburn, McClintock, and Staley to make necessary arrangements for the mining operation. Among the things accomplished was the building of a furnace and the burning of wood to make a pit of charcoal somewhere about the "Breaks" of the Sandy River. From that point in Southeastern Kentucky, they went southwesterly and found more mines. There they made more furnaces and burned more charcoal. They departed from the mines and arrived in Alexandria, VA, December 19, 1760. A man by the name of Montgomery and cut the dies for the molds. He was very good at the task, for he had been employed by the Royal Mint in London. It was during this winter that the company was reorganized and fifteen shares were allotted.      

The party took many pack horses and left for the mines June 25, 1761. Upon reaching the forks of the Sandy River, they divided into two smaller parties, one of the groups going to work the mines they had discovered the previous year. After a very prosperous year, they returned to Alexandria December 2, 1761. Some of the miners were left behind, but the managers of the mine returned.      

In 1762 the party left Alexandria during the last week of March and went west by the way of Fort Pitt. On the way two horses drowned in the waters of the Kanawha River. At the forks of the Sandy, the members of the group cast lots to see which ones would have to mine. Later on, when they reached the mines, they discovered that the men who had been left behind to work the mines during the winter had become dissatisfied. After a prosperous year of mining, they left the mines on the first day of September, 1762, and returned to Alexandria. They had done well enough to double the number of pace horses for the next year.      

In 1763 the pack train left Alexandria on April 21, 1763, for the West. This also was a good season at the mines, and the group left for Alexandria September 16 and arrived October 31. In 1764 the French and Indian War hindered their going to the mine by way of Fort Pitt, so the party went by way of New River and the Cumberland Gap, arriving at the lower mines on July 11, 1764. This year was not a very good one. They left the mines November 8, 1764, and went to the home of Mundy in North Carolina by the way of New River.    

In 1765 the miners set out from Munday's house April 14, 1765, went by way of Ingle's Ferry on New River, and reached the lower mines May 2, 1765. 1765 was a good season at the mines. Much of the silver and the ore was placed in a great cave, and the group went through Pound Gap on the return to Munday's house, arriving there November 20, 1765. In the celebration of Christmas holiday of 1765, Fletcher and Flint, two of the company, were drinking and came to blows with their swords. They were wounded and thus delayed the trop back to the mine. The two men made their wills and hid their money int he vicinity of Munday's house. Flint buried 240,000 Crowns and Fletcher hit 460,000. It was on the sixth day of June when the party left for their return trip to the mines, and shortly thereafter, on the second day of July, Fletcher died.      1766 was not a very good year, for many of their miners mutinied and fled. The men tried to conceal the mines and returned to their homes, leaving November 6, 1766, and arriving December 6, 1766.      

The next year, with a large train, they left on the first of October and arrived on the 4th of November, 1767. The year as a good one, and the group this time returned to the East by way of Fort Pitt, arriving in Alexandria on the seventh of May, 1768. A great train was made up, and the return to the mine began June 4, 1768, the date of the arrival not known. After a good year, Swift and some left the mines on the twenty-ninth of October, 1768. At the Big Sandy River, the party was ambushed, Campbell and Hazlitt killed, and Staley wounded. The group arrived at the house of Munday December 14, 1768. After the arrival in North Carolina, Hazlitt died December 24, 1768. The men got scared of North Carolina, that their money would be cheated out of them, and so they closed the branch of their operations in that State.      

On the sixteenth of May, 1769, the group left Munday's house and returned to the mines by way of New River and Cumberland gap. The pack train was large and unwieldy, and the progress was slow. The date of the arrival at the lower mines was June 24, 1769. All the party were determined to quit the mine, the workmen were paid their wages seven-fold, and much was stored in the "great cavern of the Shawnees." The return by way of the Big Sandy and Fort Pitt began October 9, 1769 and terminated at Alexandria December 11, 1769. All operations were closed out. (4)      

The Alley Journal is written more or less as a diary and of course leaves out more background information vital to the Kentucky Legend. A narrative of Swift's biographical travel experiences is enlightening in that it "catches the loose ends" of the Journal.      A condensation of the Kentucky hypothesis is as follows:      

Swift was an Englishman who first came to Virginia and then to North Carolina. If he had been a sailor, it was earlier, for he spent his latter days in the wilderness of North Carolina and Virginia. He was a trader and an adventurer who had the daring, courage, and contempt for danger characteristic of Englishmen. He was educated and wrote with a good hand. He knew higher mathematics for he used astronomical calculations in his Journal. He was self-reliant and capable of maintaining himself in transactions of magnitude. He was an organizer and leader of men.      

In 1753 and probably a few years before, he traded with the Indians and was connected with the English fur traders in what is now Ohio. As a fur trader, he spent much time with the Shawnees, married the daughter of a chief, and fathered a few children. Other accounts have it, though, that his wife was half French and either Shawnee or Wyandott, her father having been the Frenchman.      While trading with the Indians, he was captured by the French, but escaped through the help of two Frenchmen he knew. After his escape, he went to Virginia, and later fought in the Army of Braddock and Washington at Fort Dungannon.      

While on Braddock's ill-fated expedition to the French fort, he met and came to know well the following men from North Carolina; James Ireland, Samuel Blackburn, Isaac Campbell, Abram Flint, Harmon Staley, Shadrach Jefferson, and Jonathan Munday. All these men lived about the head of the Yadkin, the South Yadkins, and the Catawba Rivers in North Carolina. Swift learned about the silver mines from the Indians with whom he traded. The mines had been worked for several years by the French and the Indians. The Indians were Shawnees, although the Cherokee still claimed the area where the mine was. In the year 1760 a team of Swift, Staley, Blackburn, Ireland, and others visited the mines to make preliminary investigations, but did not work any ore. The next year they returned with the following men on the crew: Swift, Jonathan Munday, Seth Montgomery, James Ireland, Shadrack Jefferson, Joshua McClintock, Samuel Blackburn, Henry Hazlitt, Isaac Campbell, Moses Fletcher, Abram Flint, Harmon Staley, William Wilton, John, Motts, Alexander Bartol, and Jeremiah Bates. Some Frenchmen, including Pierre St. Martin and Andrew Renound, and some Shawnees were along also. These latter men met the party at Fort Pitt.      

The men procured their tools at Alexandria. Along the way they bought some maize from the Indians in Ohio. Seth Montgomery and Henry Hazlitt lived in Alexandria, and they were the ones who furnished the money for the group. Swift followed Braddock's trail to Fort Pitt, then to the present site of Charleston, West Virginia, and then went to the forks of the Great Sandy Creek. The pack horses followed each other single file under the command of the Frenchmen, and often there were as many as 1000 horses in the train. At the forks of the Sandy, some were to go up the West or Louisa (Levisa) Fork and the others on west.      

The mines were connected by a short road made by the miners. Somewhere between the Breaks of the Sandy and Pound Gap in Pine Mountain there was a large cave which went from one side of the mountain to the other. Some of Swift's mines were in this vicinity, and they made the cave a storage place for the silver they obtained. (5) Because the romance of obtaining a hidden lode stirs the imagination of most men, generally the other Kentucky legends are vague and ambiguous about Swift and his associates, but explicit and lucid on where the treasure may be found. As early as 1840 John D. Shane, in the "Draper Papers", said that Swift "had considerable mechanical genius, and possessed a knowledge of the art of refining silver". He further explained that Indians took Swift down a river to Maysville and after landing and going over a rich alluvial tract, went into mountains and found the silver ore in a cave, or rock house. Shane further explains in great detail where Swift had his smelter, coined money, hid treasures, and later searched in vain for the mine. (6)      

Thomas D. Clarke relates in his book "The Kentucky", substantially the Kentucky Legend, but at one point disagrees with the other accounts of the legend by saying that Swift was a sea captain ready to sail for Cuba when he learned about the silver from Munday, with whom he contracted to find the mine. After working the mine once, Swift was kept prisoner in the Tower of London for disputing British Colonial policies, and when he returned he was blind and could find nothing. (7)      Also a part of the Kentucky Legend is a story about money being buried under a large flat rock in a rockhouse. The Draper Papers seem to be the earliest account of the flat rock in rockhouse story ( (disregarding a similar story in the Clinch Legend). Almost all of the later narratives of the mine and the attempts to find it mention this prize in the rockhouse. At least two of the Kentucky family of legends supplement the basic narrative by specifically pointing out the where-abouts of buried treasure, mentioning caches next to a large creek flowing south, near some marked trees, near a large white oak, and in a rockhouse. (9)Other sources advance the idea that Christopher Gist discovered silver on his exploration in 1751 and told Swift about it. Furthermore, he and Swift worked together on the subject founding Gist's Station (Coeburn, VA) as an outlet for the silver-trading business.

(10)Another common tradition regarding Swift is that he was a murderer. In 1790 he and the other survivors of the original party (Munday, McClintock, two Frenchmen, and two Shawnees) arrived at the mines and checked their caches. Discovering that nothing had been taken elsewhere, they returned to the great "Shawnee Cave" in Pine Mountain, and while the others lay sleeping, he killed them all with a sword.  From that moment an act of God caused him to go blind and made the money inaccessible to any with avarice in his eyes. After crawling back to civilization, Swift, though blinded, directed later searches to find the mine, but all were to no avail. (11) By one source this is the Clarke County story. (12) According to some he only killed Munday (who was the only one with him), but all agree that his soul was damned and he confessed the murders on his death bed. (13)      

As a preface to the Kentucky Legend, the following background is quoted from Swift's Journal: Sir William Berkely, Governor of Virginia, was informed by the Indians in 1784, "that within five days" journey to the Westward and by South there is a great high mountain, and at the foot thereof great Rivers that run into the sea; and that there are men that come hither in ships (but not the same that ours be), they wear apparel and have reed caps on their heads, and ride on Beastes like our horses, but have much longer ears, and other circumstances they declare for the certainty of the Kanawha, Kentucky Cumberland and Tennessee, whose waters flow from the western slope of the Allegheny Mountains to the Ohio and Mississippi and into the Gulf of Mexico, long before frequented by Spainards. (14)      

Finally, legend tells that Swift was a counterfeiter and buccaneer on the Spanish main, and brought ore to the wilderness to smelt, only using the mine story as a cover. He is also reported to have made bogus money in England and thus was in America as an exile. He was supposed to have made three silver dollars with the ore needed to make one. (15) The Clinch Legends      The so-called "Clinch" version of the story of Swift's mine is peculiar to Southwest Virginia an the Clinch watershed. The following legend, which purports to have been written by Swift, has inconsistencies and fallacies, but its thoroughness and proximity to the other Clinch narratives is through enough to allow it to be the representative for them.      (At this point Mr. Dougherty gave a brief extemporaneous resume' of the Clinch Valley tale. He did not leave a typed copy. One version of the Clinch Valley legend has been appended to the paper by Luther F. Addington.)      

An investigation by Mr. Francis L. Berkley; curator of manuscripts for the University of Virginia Library, showed the preceding document bogus. He said that it was "spurious" and pure "tommy rot". His criticism challenged the phraseology, handwriting, and materials in the paper. He said that "smelter", as a place where ore is smelted, was a word not used at that time, that the London Company went out of existence in 1624, and that the way s's and and's were formed is a style of handwriting not known in 1775. Furthermore, the woven paper is too modern for 1775, the variety of paper then in use having been "laid paper". The "soft, furry fell from much crumpling" tends to indicate that the document has been crumpled time and time again in a deliberate attempt to give it an aged look. Finally, the ink itself is not durable enough to have lasted since. (17) It is known that many Swift mine maps were sold to money-hungry residents of the Clinch Valley for considerable sums of money. It is then conceivable that the mine journals and maps were sold by some patient chiseler as a money-making scheme? If so, the Clinch Legends will rank among hoaxes as first class. Many have been fooled if the tale is false, for the present author has consulted then Swift Journals like the one mentioned above, most of them so similar that phrases, clauses, and sentences are often identical. This is to say nothing of the many legends and searches for the mine, which are voluminous in the Clinch Valley area.      

A fanciful notion taken by many of the older folk of the Clinch area (all non-literary information) has it that the Melungeons, an unknown race in Hancock Co., Tn, and Scott Co., VA, were the first miners of Swift's Silver Mines, having been imported to work the mines by Swift and his associates. The odd conglomeration of people still preserves a slight racial unity, and in the Fort Blackmore-Dungannon area, where the mine has long been sought, they are called "Ramps". An article in "The Tennessee Conservationist" reports that they were counterfeiters of gold and silver and their money had more precious metal than did that minted by the United States Mine, and it was circulated without question. The silver the Melungeons used in their counterfeit coins came from Straight Creek, a tributary of the Cumberland River. A family named Mullins were the makers of the silver money in that section. (19)    

Common to the Clinch legends and many of the Kentucky ones, too, is that Swift, after being blinded, returned to the home of the Widow Renfro, at Bean Station, TN, and there tried to find the mine, but after failing, drew many maps of how to reach his treasure, hoping someone would help him recover his mine. Most of the Clinch legends claim their origin from Bean Station, TN. This point is disputed, however, for residents of Bell Co., KY, claim that Cumberland Ford, a few miles north of Cumberland Gap, was previously and erroneously called "Bean Station." That is the reason, say the Kentuckians that Virginians have been misled into hunting for the mine in the Clinch Valley. J. Emerson Miller, a historical-interest columnist for the "Middlesboro Daily New" told the present writer that James Renfro once owned the site of the town of Pineville, KY. He lived at Cumberland Ford before being killed by a falling tree, and later Swift stayed with his widow and left a map with her. Bell and Harlan Counties have been, incidentally, the location of a considerable amount of searching for the mine. (20)      

Despite the close proximity of the phraseology of the Clinch Legends, the names employed for the chief actors in that drama are curiously different. Swift's name has been variously reported as "Tom", "John", and "George William", and he is known mainly as an English sailor or a Spanish Buccaneer. Munday has been classified as either an Indian, a Frenchman, and Englishman, or a Spainard. His last name has been spelled "Munday", "Monda", and "Mundy". He was a resident of East Tennessee or North Carolina. His Christian name has been reported as "Jonathan", "John Martin", and "George".       Blackburn was said to have returned with Swift, been captured by the Indians, blinded, and later escaped and killed Swift. He was a Yadkin River resident and was a trader with the Overhill Cherokees. (21)      

Shadrach Jefferson, or T. S. Jefferson was either a silversmith of Alexandria, VA, or a fourteen-year old boy to care for horses who was finally killed by Swift.       Swift himself, in most of the Clinch Legends, is in one way treated consistently, in that he is rarely called "John". He is usually called an English mariner or smith. According to a fringe source, there were two Swifts - John and William. They were brothers and both silversmiths. (22) Swift was a merchant from Alexandria, a trader with the Indians, or a resident of the Upper Yadkin area.      

Of all the above information given in this paper, there is no proof of any fact given which the present author would deem as worthy to stand before any strict Court of Inquiry. About one Jonathan W. Swift, however, the following statement may be safely and accurately be made: a man by the name of Jonathan Swift, J. W. Swift, Jonathan W. Swift, or J. Swift did live in Alexandria, VA in the latter half of the Eighteenth Century and has often been considered a prominent citizen. In 1786, he signed a petition to the Virginia General Assembly regarding aid for Alexandria Academy, established by George Washington. (23) In 1787, he signed a petition to the Assembly regarding wheat inspection. (24) In 1790, he was mentioned in the Assembly regarding the sale of lots in Portsmouth. (25) In 1792, he signed a petition to the Assembly along with other Alexandria merchants requesting the establishment of a state bank in Alexandria. (26) Soon after the death of President Washington, he became a charter member of the Washington Society and was their first treasurer. (Later members of the club, incidentally, were to include Francis Scott Key and John Marshall.) (27) Is this the same Swift? - it is extremely doubtful.      
There remains yet but one area of the Clinch Legend not yet covered - Dickenson Co., VA. Dickenson County is, for the purposes of this paper, a fringe area and really does not fit into either of the two major classifications. Geographically, the County is drained by the Levisa Fork of the Sandy River and thus should be included in the Kentucky Legends. However, the approach to the story of the mine is a little unique, but it more closely resembles the Clinch Legend Family in form.       The Dickenson County version of the mine story has the same method of approach that is similar to the Clinch tales - I. e. counting the fourth ridge from the Blue Ridge. (28) Some of the material mentioned, though, is referring to the Big Sandy and its tributaries. According to the tale, Swift, Jefferson, and Munday discovered the mine, but could not work it and covered the entrance. From there they journeyed to Castle's Woods, but Munday was killed in a quarrel over the division of spoils and the Indians stole the rest. Swift returned to the fort, but soon lost his sight. He got the assistance of the grandfathers of Morgan Lipps, Covey Holebrook, and Eli Hill and an Old Man Castle. He took them to Nancy Gap on Sandy Ridge and told them to look for a forked Dogwood tree. They could not find anything, so Swift broke down and cried like a baby. (29) A Version of the Clinch Valley Legend      
This account was published in Charles A. Johnson's History of Wise County. Mr. Johnson said, "The date from which this sketch is prepared is taken from a copy of what is said to be one of Swift's original 'Mine Maps and Mine History'. The copy is thought to be a century and a half old. It was so old and so delicate it had to be handled with utmost care, and looked to be in powdered condition ready to fall apart."    

Quoting from the journal: "In the year 1738-39 a Frenchman was captured by the Cherokees and taken from the territory now known as North Carolina into the Mountains to the westward. They led him to an ancient silver mine, known only to the Indians.      "The Frenchman remained with the Indians three years, then, making his escape, returned to his home in North Carolina. While he was with the Indians they took him to a silver mine. He marked the place with the intention of returning to the mine at some future time. He had not remained at home very long until he decided to return to the mine and work up some rich ore.    

"He employed a silversmith named Swift to accompany him. They returned to the silver mine by the route that had been mapped out by the Frenchman, and on reaching the mine it was examined by Swift, the silversmith, and pronounced to be the richest known. They succeeded in coining up lots of the rich metal into French crowns - enough for two horse loads.      "Then they decided to return home. After remaining at their homes in North Carolina three months, they decided to return again to the mine, which they attempted to do, but reaching the section where the mine was supposed to be located, and failing to find it after diligent search for several days, they gave up all hope of ever finding it. After such hope was abandoned, Swift gave out maps and charts describing the mine, also a waybill to its location which reads as follows:                        

Swift's Directions....."Me and my guide coming to the min, marked our path by rocks, creeks, gaps, and maps on trees. Traveling 35 to 40 miles, crossing a mountain and rocky region, we came through large gaps filled with Indians, called Mecca (Shawnee). From there through a bluffy region; thence from there to a cliff on the right, thence up a creek, crossing in the opposite direction to the cliff, thence through a bottom by an old Indian grave yard; thence by said branch to a buffalo or deer lick gap, thence through the gap to a valley running east and west, thence four or five miles to a half moon shaped rock house in the mountain on a little creek full of cedars and spruce pines where we smelted our silver ore; thence back eastward to a ridge that runneth eastward to a saddle gap in the ridge where the mine is. At the mouth of the mine stands a tree to which is tacked a card bearing the words, "Swift and Munday's Mine Map. Take Notice."    

"In the mine is pick and canteen we left and also money moulds. Our sheep skin aprons was also left in the rockhouse and loads of coined French crowns buried on the right side as you go in the rockhouse. The ore was in a gray rock with a sandstone ridge running nearby.      

"The mouth of the mine as about as large as a hogshead or barrel and dropped straight down in the ground for about ten foot, then made off level." A Historicol-Critical Comment      The author would like very much to answer the following questions:      Who was John Swift?      Did he really live, mine silver, and coin money?      Did he have a mine? If so, where?      What is the origin of the different and conflicting accounts of the mine?      Is there still buried in the Southern Appalachians a vast lode of treasure?      Were the many people "taken in" by swindlers selling treasure maps completely fooled, or is there some truth to the story?      What part did the Shawnee Indians play in the mine story? The Spainards? The French?      Diligent research and more careful historical criticism not in the scope of this paper might perhaps yield the answers, or at least partial answers, to these questions. Some of them will perhaps never be answered. Either way, they have not been answered in this paper. Was the man who said the story Swift's Silver Mine "...is based apparently on old tales told by the Cherokee Indians.." correct? (30) Or are several generations of mountain people correct in saying that there was and is a Swift Silver Mine that cannot be discovered because of the intervention of the wrath of a God who says, "the love of money is the root of all evil".      The following poem, taken from Southeastern Kentucky folklore suggests the evasiveness of the mine:                  

The Silver Mine of Swift,
A fine will-o-the-wisp
Left in a heroic age
For a vision of the sage
With reason bereft. (31)

I posted this story for people to discuss the many diffrent versions of the journal, as well as the two versions of the legend, the Kentucky version, and the Clinch version    

        

   It IS interesting... I am inclinded to think "SWIFT" was a "code-name" for various pirates and buccaneers who gave up the old trade to create a new one, COUNTERFEITING!   Hence, the various "first names".   NOT worried about geologists saying NO or LACK of "silver/gold veins"...
Swift & Co. merely melted down their "pirated" silver & gold...     Counterfeited coins for the individual colonies was "outlawed", then a "FEDERAL thing" was eventually done.  MAY be why the FEDS are against finding stuff, or just federalizing "sites of interest" as parks, parkways... just my humble opinion.    "With reason bereft" sounds like a "code", and if "googled" (WITH REASON BEREFT), get 889,000 "hits";   stated to mean... DECLINE OF THOUGHTS & PROSPECTS FOT ITS RENEWAL; HA!  Leave "pirate-thoughts" behind... OUTLAWED, and "hunted
down"... LAWD GAWD A'MIGHTY!  

That is very interesting, and very plausible...Swifts mention of the sea has raised many eyebrows    He very well could have been a counterfeiter bring back stolen gold and silver to resmelt. My question here is the same as many, why would he come this far west, in hostel Indian country to re-coin metal.  It does mention him buying ships, this could have been sometype of silver trading business he was in.

I believe he was a longhunter, suryeror, and Indian trader in the 10 or so years before mining silver. It is mentioned that he had help from the Shawnee. Also it is mentioned many times that the land which the silver lay in was the home of the Shawnee, and they knew every part of it. This brings me to believe that he acquired his information on the mines from the Indians with who he traded with. This brings up Mundy, Mundy was either french or white Indian. The trading posts at the Indian villages were occupied by the french prior to 1758. It is possable that both Indian or mundy could have related the information on the mine to Swift. "these mines were abandoned in 1758" by both french and Indian, although some french stayed around to mine. Funny how Swift came back to mine just 2 years after the french/Indians abandoned the mines, or MINE in 1760...It is known he was planning the first trip to the mine in late 1759.

It is more than likely that Swift was a Indian trader of the Ohio....the way my research points...  any questions you may have LMK!   

  Ki, if I was an "outlaw"/ex-pirate... I would get as far away from the BRITS, colonies, etc. as I (Swift & Co.) could... the "wilds" of FAR west Virginia, Kentucky, Ohio, etc. would be VERY
attractive, especially, if I had spent MONTHS/YEARS "at sea".   "Connections" to the French & Indians
PROBABLY would ensure survival, if THEY were "paid off" with "pirate loot".   SURVEYING the "land" in the WEST beyond "civilized colonies", would have given me (Swift & Co.), the chance to find "secret
places", "cut/carve/print" clues... so that OTHERS could "find" things... 

Sounds possable, "turning Brit crowns to French crowns" but Swifts silver is believed to not contain the other trace elements the Brit crown contained, making 3 coins from 1 Brit coin. The real truth we may never know, its a shame folktale wasn't recorded in this time of history when we need it most....

Also the Shawnee had a history of their own, handed down generation to generation on the Mine, that we learn of 30-40 years after Swifts mining operation. The Indian silver mine was talked about before Swift came to Kentucky also. Honestly i believe more in the Shawnee mine than i do with Swift, but i have found some interesting clues that ties swift with my area. The Shawnee where known for war and treasure historians say....

The Shawnee could have helped Swift hide that STOLEN silver as well, in a cave.......

Rebel, since you are a Mason, I will propose this theory.  Swift was hiding Templar/Masonic "treasures" for Washington and the Masons.  The mines existed, but were mostly a "cover" for Swift's other task.  The "Great Cave" or "Indian Cave" as Swift refers to their storehouse could have even been present way before Swift, as a Templar hiding place (such as Oak Island) and Swift simply added to it (with excess from the mines as well as what he brought with him), as well as other Masons after Swift (like Quantrill).  How does this "theory" sound to a respected Mason, such as yourself?  This could also explain why the Shawnee considered the cave sacred.  As with the Maya, the Shawnee might have thought of the bearded white Templars as "Gods" when they arrived and hid things in this cave/storehouse centuries before Swift.

Hi Guys,
We covered this one before. The immense number of coins that were traded for ships means that the loads were way too large to take all the way into KY just  to convert. With Indian dangers, pack animal losses, and all, then the same hazards coming back....it doesn’t make sense. The duality of the travel would also expose them to people following …. Loaded mules make deep tracks. And on and on.... they could have easily took one of the ships, went to a deserted island, smelted and coined the stuff then said they recovered it from a wreck.  I have even read that in those times they could forge iron on board the ship, so why not just take a cruise, smelt the silver and remold it then come back?
The documentation someone has says he was arrested for counterfeiting and had to be released because HIS coins had more pure silver than the English Crowns he was counterfeiting...doesn’t seem like he was making 3 from 1. I will agree he could be a Mason, but I doubt he was doing it for the “order”.  We have to remember these were troublesome times and risking your life with the Shawnee and Cherokees when it wasn’t really necessary would have been avoided. 
I also think the number of mines in KY were more than most people would imagine. I have found 6 that lie within a 5 mile radius of each other. Found four in OH that was within 2 miles of each other. These are all old Indian silver mines and when you research it the Indians that bothered to write about it were right on the money, you just have to imagine what they are telling you…knowing its different symbology than we use...same goes for Swift clues.

I've been a Master Mason for all of my adult life (decades), have advanced in the craft and have an extensive masonic library, and I just have to bite my tongue when I see some of the misinformation that I've seen about Masons here on treasure net.  It really makes me cringe.  Now I'll be attacked or called a "naysayer" but that's fine.  I'm just trying to defend myself and my fellow freemasons against all this poppycock and pure fantasy nonsense.

Oh, I forgot.  The standard reply is "Only the highest ranking Masons know about these things, the average Mason is kept in the dark."
I won't say here on treasure net what rank I've attained as a Mason, so don't try to use the "high ranking" excuse with me, it won't fly.

VA Melungeon, what "misinformation" are you referring to?  IF you are referring to the Masonic Allegory I refer to in the Swift legend (as well as the Beale legend and other related legends), you are WRONG!  Masonic Allegory is FACT and, Rebel, who is a high-ranking Mason himself has touched on Pesher Codes and Masonic Allegory on T-Net before.  Besides, IF you will read my post, when I ask Rebel a question about the "allegory", I state that this is a THEORY of mine - I NEVER stated it was a fact.  Please, if you are referring to my post, do NOT put words into my mouth - a theory is ONLY a theory and NOT fact!

If your profile is correct and your name is correct, you are DEFINITELY NOT A 33rd DEGREE MASON, as I have posted the list of 33rd degree masons on the forum before, so do not act as if you are so high ranking you know ALL!

Whatever.  BTW, melungeons aren't Phonecians either and no DNA test "proved" it.
Find any more ball peen hammers lately?

Oh, you mean that list that had Joseph Stalin on it?  ROFL!!!!  Did you know an atheist can't be a Mason? 

http://www.masonicinfo.com/33rdsrule.htm

A site with INFORMATION, not disinformation, distortions and fantasy.

I had to do a search to find your "list" and it's a doozy!  It's starts off with a FALSE STATEMENT...and proceeds to list people some of whom COULD NOT HAVE BEEN FREEMASONS!!!  Jimmy Carter isn't a Mason, Yasser Arafat wasn't a Mason, and SADDAM HUSSEIN?  Jeez whiz, what a load of BS you are spreading!
You are defaming not only freemasonry, but freemasons and I am one.  And no, you still don't know how far I have advanced in the craft.  Please STOP this nonsense.

According to Swiftsearcher"
"It is said that only two U.S. Presidents: Abraham Lincoln and John Kennedy, were not either Masons or elite members of affiliated bodies (note by vamelungeon- this is a plain, simple falsehood and easily verified)

  John Adams
(King) Umberto Agnelli
Buzz Aldrin
Yasser Arafat
(Patriarch) Athenagoras I
Gene Autry
Tobias Axelrod
Foster Bailey
Admiral G.W. Baird
Achille Ballori
M.H. Barroso
Bernard Mannes Baruch
Harry L. Baum
Daniel Carter Beard (Boy Scouts)
Justice Hugo Black
Jonathan Blanchard
Tony Blair
Rev. William Booth (Salvation Army)
John Wilkes Booth
Hayden C. Boyce
John C. Breckinridge
Sir Richard Burton
George Herbert Walker Bush
Senator Byrd
Plutarco Elias Calles
James Cameron
Jimmy Carter
Hugo Chavez
Richard Cheney
Sir Winston Churchill
Henry Clausen
William J. Clinton
Howell Cobb
James B. Conant
Copin-Albancelli
John H. Cowles
Adolphe Cremieux
Francesco Crispi
Aleister Crowley
Delmar Darrah
Morris B. de Pass
Richard DeVos (Amway)
Walt. Disney
Sen. Bob Dole
General James Doolittle
Gerard (Papus) Encausse
Frederick Engels
Senator Sam J. Ervin
Gerald Rudolf Ford
(King) Frederick II
Giuseppe Garibaldi
Newt. Gingrich
John Glenn
Barry Goldwater
Mikhail Gorbachev
Al Gore
J.J.J. Gourgas
Rev. Billy Graham
James Graham
Col. James "Bo" Gritz
Rev. Kenneth Hagin
Manly P. Hall
Mark Hatfield
Jesse Helms
Christian A. Herter
Richard Holbrooke
J. Edgar Hoover
Col. Edward Mandell House
King Hussein
Saddam Hussein
Burl Icle Ives
Jessie James
Rev. Jesse Jackson
Andrew Johnson
Lyndon Baines Johnson
Dr. Bob Jones Sr.
Jack Kemp
 Duke Michael of Kent
Alexander Kerensky
Spencer Kimball
Henry Kissinger
C. Fred Kleinknecht
Kenneth S. Kleinknecht
Helmut Kohl
Ted Kollek
Arnoldo Krumm-Heller
Adriano Lemmi
Vladimir Lenin
McIlyar H. Lichliter
Albert Lontaine
Gen. Douglas MacArthur
Sir Henry MacMahon
Robert McNamara
Vasili Maklakov
Domenico Margiotta
Thurgood Marshall
James G. Martin
Karl Marx
(Baron) Yves Marsaudon
Joseph Mazzini
Lord Alfred Milner
Francoir Mitterand
Henry Morgenthau
Benjamin Netanyahu
G. Bromley Oxnam
Olof Palme
Henry Palmerston
Shimon Peres
Albert Pike
Dr. Norman Vincent Peale
Prince Phillip
Roscoe Pound
(Gen.) Colin L. Powell
Yitzak Rabin
Ronald Reagan
Joseph Rettinger
Harman Gansvort Reynolds
Marshall S. Reynolds
Michel Reyt
Cecil Rhodes
Oral Roberts
Franklin D.Roosevelt
Theodore Roosevelt
Paul Rosen
James Rothschild
Charles Taze Russell
Bishop Carl J. Sanders
Jacob Schiff
Bill Schnoebelen
Gerhard Schroeder
Rev. Robert Schuller
Rev. Al Sharpton
James D. Shaw
Senator Simpson
Joseph Stalin
Rudolph Steiner
R.W. Thompson
Storm Thurmond
Leon Trotsky
Harry S. Truman
Pierre G. Vassal
Felix Warburg
Paul Moritz Warburg
Earl Warren
George Warvelle
Chaim Weizmann
H.G. Wells
William Wynn Westcott
Earl Wheeler
Leo Wheeler
John Yarker
Brigham Young
Leon Zeldis  "

Some of these people were and are freemasons.  None of the communists could be, since freemasonry excludes atheists. 

This is some ridiculous stuff, just made up.  You know what stuff that's made up is called, don't you?

http://www.masonicinfo.com/famous.htm
Masonicinfo.com is probably the best website I personally know of with REAL information about Freemasonry. 

Vamelungeon, you NEVER answered my questions - just dodged them.  THEN, you made the OUTRIGHT LIE that "according to Swiftsearcher...", when just before YOU stated correctly that I got the information from a website!  This is LUDICROUS to state the information on a website was according to me, when I copied and pasted the information!  PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT BEFORE ATTACKING ME!

BTW - the site you listed does not list any 33rd degree masons - if you are going to debunk the other site, you could at least provide a site with a list (which I am sure your name will not be a part of)!  BTW - what rank are you?

You also claim that certain people on the list I provided from a website of 33rd degree masons contained "atheists".  How do you know this?  Are you GOD?  Can you know someone's soul and their beliefs?  If you can, you are better than I!

You also claim that the statement made on the website (again, NOT by me) is a falsehood, plain and simple, and easily verified - well, VERIFY IT FOR US, SINCE IT IS EASILY VERIFIED!

Also, you state Melungeons are NOT Phoenicians.  Well, according to this Dr. Kennedy (any relation?), and his published work, they ARE!  Who are we to believe however, a noted Dr. who has performed years of research on the Melungeons, or you?


In short, it can be gathered from Kennedy’s research that the Melungeons are the descendants of the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians, they were part of the Arab nation that conquered Spain and Portugal, built Casablanca, Marrakech, and Tangier, and, in the midst of their worst tragedy, sailed to America and traveled 300 miles inland to establish a free colony in the new world, forty years before the British established the colony we would come to know as Jamestown.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dr. N Brent Kennedy, Ph.D., published a book on his research into his Southern Appalachian ancestry.


  Mediterranean/Middle Eastern/East Indian Theory


For decades Melongeons have claimed to possess a partial Mediterranean/Middle Eastern/East Indian heritage.

This is the theory espoused by Dr. N. Brent Kennedy. He believes there is evidence that the Melungeons were settlers of either Ottoman Turks or Spanish/Turkish sailors who were stranded on American soil. Being trained survivalists, they pushed inland and intermarried with Cherokee, Creek, Powhatan, Catawba and Chickahominy women.

Dr. Kennedy has assembled a team of forty-two scientists and researchers who are studying all aspects of the Melungeon mystery. They are examining linguistics, medical genetics, diseases, dress styles, and physical traits to establish evidence of Melungeon ancestry.

They have found similarities in the languages that appear to be beyond chance. More than one thousand words in the Melungeon vocabulary have been traced to Arabic or Turkish origin

BTW - here is a link to the page where I received the 33rd degree list.  I am in NO WAY the creator of this site/page!

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/33rd.htm

Again, you NEVER answered my question - What about my post made you have to post the following?

I've been a Master Mason for all of my adult life (decades), have advanced in the craft and have an extensive masonic library, and I just have to bite my tongue when I see some of the misinformation that I've seen about Masons here on treasure net.  It really makes me cringe.  Now I'll be attacked or called a "naysayer" but that's fine.  I'm just trying to defend myself and my fellow freemasons against all this poppycock and pure fantasy nonsense.

All I did was ask Rebel (who is a Freemason) a legitimate questions about the Pescher Code and Allegory, then you state (as seen above) that I was posting "misinformation" - this is an OUTRIGHT LIE!  I simply asked a question and gave a theory.  When asked my question, as to what you were referring to in my question to Rebel, YOU ATTACK me and claim some website with information on 33rd degree masons is "according to Swiftsearcher".  You may well be a master mason, but your IQ seems lower than your degree of masonry, as, instead of answering my legitimate question, you attack me and make outlandish claims, bring up a list I posted from another website and provide NO evidence to debunk it, etc. etc.!

You also attack me for quoting people who have done research on Melungeon history and genealogy, as if I have no idea what I am talking about.  I may not, but I would trust this research over your "opinion" with NO EVIDENCE whatsoever to support your mockery of me!  It is evident you simply want to attack me for something - tell me what it is and we can settle it.  IF I made a false statement, I am man enough to admit I was wrong!  IF the website I posted had the wrong information, feel free to show me PROOF it is incorrect and I will never visit it again nor take any quotes from it!  However, you are getting off of the question and this thread - the post I made in this thread was a question to Rebel - you attacked it - when asked why, you bring up other things not related to this thread nor my question and attack me - please answer my initial question and quit dodging it - What was so bad about the question I asked Rebel in this thread??  IF you have a problem with something I have posted in another thread, please post your frustration and/or question there and I will address it - simply quit dodging my question related to this thread!

Vamelungeon, you NEVER answered my questions - just dodged them.  THEN, you made the OUTRIGHT LIE that "according to Swiftsearcher...", when just before YOU stated correctly that I got the information from a website!  This is LUDICROUS to state the information on a website was according to me, when I copied and pasted the information!  PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT BEFORE ATTACKING ME!

BTW - the site you listed does not list any 33rd degree masons - if you are going to debunk the other site, you could at least provide a site with a list (which I am sure your name will not be a part of)!  BTW - what rank are you?

You also claim that certain people on the list I provided from a website of 33rd degree masons contained "atheists".  How do you know this?  Are you GOD?  Can you know someone's soul and their beliefs?  If you can, you are better than I!

You also claim that the statement made on the website (again, NOT by me) is a falsehood, plain and simple, and easily verified - well, VERIFY IT FOR US, SINCE IT IS EASILY VERIFIED!

Also, you state Melungeons are NOT Phoenicians.  Well, according to this Dr. Kennedy (any relation?), and his published work, they ARE!  Who are we to believe however, a noted Dr. who has performed years of research on the Melungeons, or you?


In short, it can be gathered from Kennedy’s research that the Melungeons are the descendants of the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians, they were part of the Arab nation that conquered Spain and Portugal, built Casablanca, Marrakech, and Tangier, and, in the midst of their worst tragedy, sailed to America and traveled 300 miles inland to establish a free colony in the new world, forty years before the British established the colony we would come to know as Jamestown.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dr. N Brent Kennedy, Ph.D., published a book on his research into his Southern Appalachian ancestry.


  Mediterranean/Middle Eastern/East Indian Theory


For decades Melongeons have claimed to possess a partial Mediterranean/Middle Eastern/East Indian heritage.

This is the theory espoused by Dr. N. Brent Kennedy. He believes there is evidence that the Melungeons were settlers of either Ottoman Turks or Spanish/Turkish sailors who were stranded on American soil. Being trained survivalists, they pushed inland and intermarried with Cherokee, Creek, Powhatan, Catawba and Chickahominy women.

Dr. Kennedy has assembled a team of forty-two scientists and researchers who are studying all aspects of the Melungeon mystery. They are examining linguistics, medical genetics, diseases, dress styles, and physical traits to establish evidence of Melungeon ancestry.

They have found similarities in the languages that appear to be beyond chance. More than one thousand words in the Melungeon vocabulary have been traced to Arabic or Turkish origin

I got that list you posted from THIS website!  YOU posted it right here on treasure net!  Or are you saying someone hacked your account and posted it?  You posted it as FACT, so stand by it.

I know Brent Kennedy very well, I have his book signed by him to me.  He GAVE me the book, BTW.  Unfortunately he had a stroke a while back and can't come here to post.
The theory you've posted has been debunked pretty much in it's entirety.
But you posted there is DNA evidence PROVING melungeons are descended from Phonecians.  Put up or shut up, as the saying goes.  If you are talking about the DNA test done by Dr. Kevin Jones, it doesn't say that.  Maybe you know of some other test.  Please enlighten me, as the former president of the Melungeon Heritage Association, I'm all ears.  Melungeons don't have any "exotic" origins but some fanciful people want to believe that in the face of actual facts.

BTW - here is a link to the page where I received the 33rd degree list.  I am in NO WAY the creator of this site/page!

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/33rd.htm

YOU posted that garbage here as fact.  YOU.

Vamelungeon, you NEVER answered my questions - just dodged them.  THEN, you made the OUTRIGHT LIE that "according to Swiftsearcher...", when just before YOU stated correctly that I got the information from a website!  This is LUDICROUS to state the information on a website was according to me, when I copied and pasted the information!  PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT BEFORE ATTACKING ME!

BTW - the site you listed does not list any 33rd degree masons - if you are going to debunk the other site, you could at least provide a site with a list (which I am sure your name will not be a part of)!  BTW - what rank are you?

You also claim that certain people on the list I provided from a website of 33rd degree masons contained "atheists".  How do you know this?  Are you GOD?  Can you know someone's soul and their beliefs?  If you can, you are better than I!

You also claim that the statement made on the website (again, NOT by me) is a falsehood, plain and simple, and easily verified - well, VERIFY IT FOR US, SINCE IT IS EASILY VERIFIED!

Your message is SO long...
What questions did you ask me?
How do I know if a communist dictator is an atheist?  I'll let that one answer itself. 
Lenin a mason???
The website I gave a link to doesn't list any 33rd degree masons?  It lists a few but there's not some made up list like the one you posted.
It also listed which presidents were mason. 
Here's a link showing every President that was or is a mason.  The website belongs to a masonic lodge.
http://www.calodges.org/no406/FAMASONS.HTM
So, yes what you posted here was a falsehood.
And I'm not going to tell you how far I've risen in Freemasonry.  I already told you I wouldn't.

http://www.jgoins.com/core_melungeon.htm
Jack Goins' Melungeon DNA project

http://www.jgoins.com/core_melungeon.htm
Results.  No Phonecians.  Have at it!

Dr. Kennedy's theories have pretty much been debunked.  I like Brent but he made some astounding assertions without any real evidence.  Here's a website all about melungeons
http://www.geocities.com/ourmelungeons/front.html

I am asking you, as politely as I can, to stop posting nonsense about Masons and melungeons.  I don't think that is too much to ask.

Well, all I am asking is that you stick to the topic.  I posted a question to Rebel with a theory, then you attacked me.  When I asked you why, you went on an on about other posts and where I pasted some website links in OTHER threads.  YOU HIJACKED THIS THREAD AND WENT OFF TOPIC! 

As with Dr. Kennedy (whom I trust has done more research than you on the topic of Melungeons and has more credentials as well), I posted HIS work, as I posted the 33rd degree list from a website.  IF these two websites are nonsense - PROVE IT!  Don't attack me for their work - especially without proving anything at all yourself! 

I am simply on here to expand my knowledge and learn.  There is nothing wrong with me providing a "theory" and asking Rebel for his opinion - if there is, I apologize!

AGAIN, I WILL ASK YOU IN ALL CAPS, SO YOU CANNOT IGNORE MY QUESTION - WHAT, IN MY QUESTION TO REBEL ABOUT MY THEORY IN THIS THREAD, PROMPTED YOU TO ATTACK ME???

If you are angry at another post of mine, in which I was in a discussion and posted a website list or link, please refrain from hijacking this thread and post your attack in the appropriate thread where I posted whatever it is you dislike.  Your attack in this thread I don't understand, as I proposed a theory and wanted someone's (Rebel's) opinion on it.

BTW - In the thread where I posted the 33rd degree list, if you will read it carefully, I was posting it to show the names of some prominent KGC members who attained the degree.  It was relevant to the discussion.  IF you have evidence to support your claim that the list is wrong, then I suggest you post in that thread, quit hijacking this thread and even contact the administrator of the websites I refer to to correct their incorrect information - NOT ATTACK ME!

Well, Well, Well, the website you provided regarding Melungeons states they have a Portuguese connection.  Guess what?  Before the formation of the Portuguese state, The Phoenicians RULED PORTUGAL STARTING IN 1104 BC.  So, please tell me there is no Phoenician connection to the Melungeons!  Not only does an esteemed research and doctor (Dr. Kennedy) state there is through his research, but the website YOU provided as your evidence states the Portuguese connection where there has to be a Phoenician connection as well, since starting in 1104 BC, the Phoenicians ruled Portugal!  It seems, from Portugal's history, that they were ruled by the Phoenicians for nearly 800 years - please show your ignorance and state now that there is no Phoenician connection!!!!!!!!


Here, from YOUR website:
http://www.geocities.com/ourmelungeons/portuguese.html

Then, here is a piece of history from Portugal's historical website:

Portugal


Capital: Lisbon
Nationhood: 1143; independent republic proclaimed Oct. 5, 1910
National Holiday: Day of Portugal, June 10

 Portugal is a republic in extreme southwest of Europe, on the Iberian Peninsula, and the Atlantic Ocean (the islands of Azores, Madeira and Savage). Portugal claims Olivença, administrated by Spain, as part of its national territory. It shares land borders with Spain in the north and east, shares a marine border with Morocco in the south. A Portuguese citizen is usually identified as Portuguese but also as Luso (or Lusitano)1.

HISTORY
Before the creation of the Portuguese state, Portugal was ruled by the Phoenicians (since 1104 BC), Carthaginians (since 258 BC), Lusitanians (native insurrection from 194 BC), Romans (since 218 BC), Suevi (since 409), Visigoths (since 416), Arabs (since 711), Asturians and Leonese (since 739).

Portuguese aren't Phonecians.  The Germans RULED France during WWII, I guess all French are Nazis by your logic.  Brilliant.

Swiftsearcher said "If your profile is correct and your name is correct, you are DEFINITELY NOT A 33rd DEGREE MASON, as I have posted the list of 33rd degree masons on the forum before, so do not act as if you are so high ranking you know ALL!"

Everyone here can read.  "I posted the list of 33 degree masons" is a pretty unambiguous statement.  YOU posted it.  YOU.  That's one of the things I didn't like, that and your "theory" about "Masonic treasures" being hidden for George Washington.  I didn't attack you, BTW.  I've seen where you always do that if anyone dares question anything you post on here.  That's not an attack.

I didn't hijack the thread.  I also didn't call you stupid or a liar, but you called me those things.  I did say you posted falsehoods, and you did.  You are just trying to disown them now, crawdad. 

Your masonic theory is a bunch of BS, and so's YOUR list of 33rd degree masons.  So's your info on melungeons.  I tell you what, google my name and the word melungeon together.  You post this stuff, and it's an insult TO ME.  I'll dispute it all day long when you do.  You are insulting me and other masons, and melungeons when you do this stuff.

Portuguese aren't Phonecians.  The Germans RULED France during WWII, I guess all French are Nazis by your logic.  Brilliant.

Swiftsearcher said "If your profile is correct and your name is correct, you are DEFINITELY NOT A 33rd DEGREE MASON, as I have posted the list of 33rd degree masons on the forum before, so do not act as if you are so high ranking you know ALL!"

Everyone here can read.  "I posted the list of 33 degree masons" is a pretty unambiguous statement.  YOU posted it.  YOU.  That's one of the things I didn't like, that and your "theory" about "Masonic treasures" being hidden for George Washington.  I didn't attack you, BTW.  I've seen where you always do that if anyone dares question anything you post on here.  That's not an attack.

I didn't hijack the thread.  I also didn't call you stupid or a liar, but you called me those things.  I did say you posted falsehoods, and you did.  You are just trying to disown them now, crawdad. 

Your masonic theory is a bunch of BS, and so's YOUR list of 33rd degree masons.  So's your info on melungeons.  I tell you what, google my name and the word melungeon together.  You post this stuff, and it's an insult TO ME.  I'll dispute it all day long when you do.  You are insulting me and other masons, and melungeons when you do this stuff.

Sorry, your argument about Nazis and the French does NOT hold water - the Nazis did NOT rule over the French for almost 800 years!  Also, there are other websites that present evidence regarding the Phoenician DNA present in many Portuguese - you can Google them if you want.  Also, you have not provided one ounce of evidence to prove that Dr. Kennedy was wrong - other than your word and a link to a Portuguese influence website.  I NEVER STATED PHOENICIANS ARE PORTUGUESE, AS YOU CLAIM - QUIT PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH, OR DO YOU NOT HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE TO READ MY STATEMENTS PROPERLY!?

I am NOT trying to disown anything I posted - I admitted I posted the list, but didn't write it myself nor make the website - what more do you want?  It is the TRUTH!  Sorry, if you don't like it that I only posted a list from someone's website, but don't blame me for thinking it was interesting and posting it!

You think my masonic theory is a bunch of BS - that is fine.  Personally, I think you are a bunch of BS.  I don't know where you get off thinking b/c you are this or that that you are better than anyone and cannot be offended.  YOUR POSTS OFFEND ME AND I WILL DEFEND MYSELF ALL DAY LONG AGAINST OUTRAGEOUS LIES FROM SCUM LIKE YOURSELF WITH NO EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS!

As of now, you claim the list I posted of 33rd degree masons from someone's website was MY LIST and is a falsehood.  Yet, you have not posted any list to disprove this list - why is that?  I guess b/c you cannot!

When you attack me or something I post, you had better have PROOF, as I have shown you proof and you have even tried to debunk an astute PHD's research regarding Melungeons (Dr. Kennedy).  I believe it is safe to say, from what I have read today on Melungeon origins, that one cannot specifically place them into one race (Phoenician, Pourtuguese, etc.), b/c they seem to be a highly mixed race.  I believe I know what you were referring to (regarding the statement I made in ANOTHER thread about Melungeons).  I was referring to Steely's book, where he cited someone's DNA testing and cannot remember exactly what I posted, but I believe it came from that book - that is why you need to STICK TO THE TOPIC/THREAD AT HAND AND NOT HIJACK IT!

If you want to discuss my "theory" in this thread - fine.  However, if you want to attack some other statement I made, please go to that thread, so I can reread exactly what I stated to defend myself.

BTW - I NEVER called you "Stupid".  I referenced your IQ when I was going by some of the outrageous statements YOUR made with no real evidence.

I don't really see how you can get so upset over a statement regarding Melungeons being mostly Phoenician or Portuguese.  The Phoenicians were an advanced peoples in the ancient world and great sailors - NOTHING to be ashamed of!  Heck, it would be like if someone said I was more Irish than German or Scot.  Again, I wish you would have posted in the CORRECT thread, the one where I made the statement about the Melungeons, so I could be more accurate defending my statement.  However, I guess that is why you choose to hijack this thread and make a blanket statement of your dislikes regarding the things I have posted.

Getting ON TOPIC with this thread, regarding my theory, which you mock, why so?  Are you not aware of the Pesher Code and/or Masonic Allegory?  Well, I wasn't until I read a thread by Rebel some time ago regarding the Beale treasure and other treasure stories!  However, I believe Rebel was on to something personally.  Of course, going by the intellect of your arguments with no evidence to support yourself, I would venture to guess that Rebel is a much higher rank than you in the Freemason fraternity, so you might not be aware of what he is aware of!?


Rebel - KGC 
Posts: 1311






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  Re: Persher Code... ALRIGHT!!!
Reply To This Topic #12 Posted Aug 16, 2007, 03:36:58 PM  Quote 
Yo!     Springfield, can you come over to Rockhound's New Treasure Hunter's Forum - The Beale Ciphers "board", PERSHER CODE "thread"?  "Post" what you did and MORE on P. C. there; I don't have ANY problem with the K.T. "connection"... PROBABLY came to USA from Scotland... some became PIRATES (and buried TREASURE...); Swift's Silver Mine(s) is probably "connected"... and your "explanation"   PERSHER CODE
fits as POSSIBLE solution to the Beale Papers/Pamplet (1885) as KEY to the Beale Code(s).  http://treasurehunter.proboards24.com/index.cgi?board=beale   ;)  THANKS!!!

Below is an interesting link and sentence taken from the link.  Let's see, "Vamelungeon" hates my "Pesher Code" theory and attacks me, his last name is Kennedy and he claims to be a high-ranking mason!

Cole and a KGC agent, he called Kennedy, with twenty men headed for the West Coast,with wagons, possibly, carrying gold to pay for the ships.


http://ancientlosttreasures.yuku.com/topic/6311

I would like to make a note about this Pescher Code I have given a link to, as well as the sentence I posted.  Does this remind Swift researchers of any story?  Cole and Kennedy and their crew taking gold to buy ships - mirrors the story of Swift and Munday and company taking silver to buy ships.  If I can get Vamelungeon to calm down for a while, maybe we Swift Buffs can discuss the similarities?

People may laugh all they want.  However, I believe Bob Brewer, Rebel, Springfield and others are on to something with these Pescher codes!

Below is an interesting link and sentence taken from the link.  Let's see, "Vamelungeon" hates my "Pesher Code" theory and attacks me, his last name is Kennedy and he claims to be a high-ranking mason!

Cole and a KGC agent, he called Kennedy, with twenty men headed for the West Coast,with wagons, possibly, carrying gold to pay for the ships.


http://ancientlosttreasures.yuku.com/topic/6311

I have never mentioned what "rank" I've attained in Freemasonry, and have never said one syllable about any "Pesher Code." 

   HA!  PERSHER CODE!   King James has BACON CODE!    MELUNGEONS... read MELUNGEONS: THE LAST LOST TRIBE IN AMERICA by Elizabeth Caldwell
Hirschman.  Chapter 6: the Templar/Freemason Connection; Chapter 7: Keeping the Faith - How
Jews and Moslems Gathered Together, and became PRIMITIVE Baptists!  LAWD GAWD A'MIGHTY!
 

Portuguese aren't Phonecians.  The Germans RULED France during WWII, I guess all French are Nazis by your logic.  Brilliant.

Swiftsearcher said "If your profile is correct and your name is correct, you are DEFINITELY NOT A 33rd DEGREE MASON, as I have posted the list of 33rd degree masons on the forum before, so do not act as if you are so high ranking you know ALL!"

Everyone here can read.  "I posted the list of 33 degree masons" is a pretty unambiguous statement.  YOU posted it.  YOU.  That's one of the things I didn't like, that and your "theory" about "Masonic treasures" being hidden for George Washington.  I didn't attack you, BTW.  I've seen where you always do that if anyone dares question anything you post on here.  That's not an attack.

I didn't hijack the thread.  I also didn't call you stupid or a liar, but you called me those things.  I did say you posted falsehoods, and you did.  You are just trying to disown them now, crawdad. 

Your masonic theory is a bunch of BS, and so's YOUR list of 33rd degree masons.  So's your info on melungeons.  I tell you what, google my name and the word melungeon together.  You post this stuff, and it's an insult TO ME.  I'll dispute it all day long when you do.  You are insulting me and other masons, and melungeons when you do this stuff.

Sorry, your argument about Nazis and the French does NOT hold water - the Nazis did NOT rule over the French for almost 800 years!  Also, there are other websites that present evidence regarding the Phoenician DNA present in many Portuguese - you can Google them if you want.  Also, you have not provided one ounce of evidence to prove that Dr. Kennedy was wrong - other than your word and a link to a Portuguese influence website.  I NEVER STATED PHOENICIANS ARE PORTUGUESE, AS YOU CLAIM - QUIT PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH, OR DO YOU NOT HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE TO READ MY STATEMENTS PROPERLY!?

I am NOT trying to disown anything I posted - I admitted I posted the list, but didn't write it myself nor make the website - what more do you want?  It is the TRUTH!  Sorry, if you don't like it that I only posted a list from someone's website, but don't blame me for thinking it was interesting and posting it!

You think my masonic theory is a bunch of BS - that is fine.  Personally, I think you are a bunch of BS.  I don't know where you get off thinking b/c you are this or that that you are better than anyone and cannot be offended.  YOUR POSTS OFFEND ME AND I WILL DEFEND MYSELF ALL DAY LONG AGAINST OUTRAGEOUS LIES FROM SCUM LIKE YOURSELF WITH NO EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS!

As of now, you claim the list I posted of 33rd degree masons from someone's website was MY LIST and is a falsehood.  Yet, you have not posted any list to disprove this list - why is that?  I guess b/c you cannot!

When you attack me or something I post, you had better have PROOF, as I have shown you proof and you have even tried to debunk an astute PHD's research regarding Melungeons (Dr. Kennedy).  I believe it is safe to say, from what I have read today on Melungeon origins, that one cannot specifically place them into one race (Phoenician, Pourtuguese, etc.), b/c they seem to be a highly mixed race.  I believe I know what you were referring to (regarding the statement I made in ANOTHER thread about Melungeons).  I was referring to Steely's book, where he cited someone's DNA testing and cannot remember exactly what I posted, but I believe it came from that book - that is why you need to STICK TO THE TOPIC/THREAD AT HAND AND NOT HIJACK IT!

If you want to discuss my "theory" in this thread - fine.  However, if you want to attack some other statement I made, please go to that thread, so I can reread exactly what I stated to defend myself.

BTW - I NEVER called you "Stupid".  I referenced your IQ when I was going by some of the outrageous statements YOUR made with no real evidence.

I don't really see how you can get so upset over a statement regarding Melungeons being mostly Phoenician or Portuguese.  The Phoenicians were an advanced peoples in the ancient world and great sailors - NOTHING to be ashamed of!  Heck, it would be like if someone said I was more Irish than German or Scot.  Again, I wish you would have posted in the CORRECT thread, the one where I made the statement about the Melungeons, so I could be more accurate defending my statement.  However, I guess that is why you choose to hijack this thread and make a blanket statement of your dislikes regarding the things I have posted.

Getting ON TOPIC with this thread, regarding my theory, which you mock, why so?  Are you not aware of the Pesher Code and/or Masonic Allegory?  Well, I wasn't until I read a thread by Rebel some time ago regarding the Beale treasure and other treasure stories!  However, I believe Rebel was on to something personally.  Of course, going by the intellect of your arguments with no evidence to support yourself, I would venture to guess that Rebel is a much higher rank than you in the Freemason fraternity, so you might not be aware of what he is aware of!?


Rebel - KGC 
Posts: 1311






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  Re: Persher Code... ALRIGHT!!!
Reply To This Topic #12 Posted Aug 16, 2007, 03:36:58 PM  Quote 
Yo!     Springfield, can you come over to Rockhound's New Treasure Hunter's Forum - The Beale Ciphers "board", PERSHER CODE "thread"?  "Post" what you did and MORE on P. C. there; I don't have ANY problem with the K.T. "connection"... PROBABLY came to USA from Scotland... some became PIRATES (and buried TREASURE...); Swift's Silver Mine(s) is probably "connected"... and your "explanation"   PERSHER CODE
fits as POSSIBLE solution to the Beale Papers/Pamplet (1885) as KEY to the Beale Code(s).  http://treasurehunter.proboards24.com/index.cgi?board=beale   ;)  THANKS!!!

Guys, don't ANYONE EVER question ANYTHING swiftsearcher says.  
You can see what happens.  
And swiftsearcher, you are a real keyboard commando.  I'm "scum" am I?
If I told the lies you tell on here, I wouldn't be casting stones.

  To CLARIFY... PERSHER CODES were utilized by Knights Templar using Jerusalem Bible (Catholic); THEN, King James had "protestant" version (KING JAMES BIBLE of 1620 or so...), with "codes" by Francis Bacon (FreeMason)... which was utilized by KGC.   Have YOU ever seen a 1 here... 12:12 there?
(Just made that up, as an example).   COULD be GEN. 12:12.  R & I goes on...  

Below is an interesting link and sentence taken from the link.  Let's see, "Vamelungeon" hates my "Pesher Code" theory and attacks me, his last name is Kennedy and he claims to be a high-ranking mason!

Cole and a KGC agent, he called Kennedy, with twenty men headed for the West Coast,with wagons, possibly, carrying gold to pay for the ships.


http://ancientlosttreasures.yuku.com/topic/6311

You are so full of it!  Yes, my last name is Kennedy.  SO?  What's yours?

   AND! Unfortunately, the Grand Lodge of France DID accept atheists, and it was the atheistic
Grand Orient de France that "chartered" the Bavarian Illuminati, a REVOLUTIONARY group of "trouble-
makers" that Bro. George Washington, as President REFUSED to allow "in-country". BUT! They DID get into Mass. or N.E., for a VERY brief period of time.  HENCE... the "nastiness" today.    BTW, "REGULAR" FreeMasons do not "recognize" ANY lodge OR... FreeMason from GOdF... (It was ALSO called GRANDE LOGE de FRANCE) 

I don't think i could be much help with this discussion, my knowledge of the masionic order is limited. I don't see where the mason's tie into the swift legend, could Swift have been a mason....yes, The main reason people think this is because his use of the caving of a compass and square. Think of this If swift was a surveyor he would also use the compass and square.....also think of this, if swift was a city boy and came wondering into the wild Indian filled Kentucky, the Indians would more than likely scalped him. Remember swift had help from the Shawnee, which means he would of had to have a trust or relationship with the Indians, and this would have only happened if he was trading with the Shawnee. remember open mind...and theory........

   Yeah, gotta get back to the "MINES".     We ARE "discussing" theories... 
 

This is just an example to my last above post.......

The Filson entry reads as follows:
1788, Robert Breckenridge and john filson as tenants in common enters 1000 acres of land upon the balance of a treasury warrent No. 10,117 about 60 or 70 miles northeastwardly from martins cabbin in powell's valley to include a silver mine which was improved about 17 years ago by a certain man named Swift at said mine, wherein the said Swift reports he has extracted from the ore a considerable quality of silver some of which he made into dollars and left at or near the mine, together with the apparatus for making the same, the land to be in a square and the lines to run at the cardinal points of the compass including the mine in the center as near as may be.....

   Is "The Journal" on-line?   I would like to read it.   I think they are "chatting" about CARVINGS of the Square & COMPASS, on trees, rocks... w/o the "G"; NOT, what is written.   Would like to see "pics" of Square & Compass, as the "design" (S & C) MAY "tell" you a "guessed date".  
     BTW, YOU have  GREAT "pics", and asked Mike S. to review some stuff,
which is GREAT!  On TN, JOHN SWIFT'S LOST SILVER MINES (CARVINGS) @ http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=118013.0 is ALSO GREAT!   THIS/THAT is what we need
MORE of...  

Below is an interesting link and sentence taken from the link.  Let's see, "Vamelungeon" hates my "Pesher Code" theory and attacks me, his last name is Kennedy and he claims to be a high-ranking mason!

Cole and a KGC agent, he called Kennedy, with twenty men headed for the West Coast,with wagons, possibly, carrying gold to pay for the ships.


http://ancientlosttreasures.yuku.com/topic/6311

I have never mentioned what "rank" I've attained in Freemasonry, and have never said one syllable about any "Pesher Code." 

You claim I lie - now that is the pot calling the kettle black!  Here is where you mentioned your "rank" or "high status" in freemasonry in a bragging manner!  Also, you stated you NEVER mentioned anything about my "Pesher Code Masonic" theory, that is an outright lie as well (See below your response)!
Re: The Legend of John Swift's Lost Silver Mine - (geographical approach)
Reply To This Topic #8 Posted Yesterday at 08:47:47 AM  Quote 
I've been a Master Mason for all of my adult life (decades), have advanced in the craft and have an extensive masonic library, and I just have to bite my tongue when I see some of the misinformation that I've seen about Masons here on treasure net.  It really makes me cringe.  Now I'll be attacked or called a "naysayer" but that's fine.  I'm just trying to defend myself and my fellow freemasons against all this poppycock and pure fantasy nonsense.

Here is where you bash my Masonic "Pesher Code" theory!

Your masonic theory is a bunch of BS, and so's YOUR list of 33rd degree masons.

Also, PLEASE point out one "lie" I have told (I just pointed two of your lies out and you have only posted 25 times - mostly attacking me!).  BTW - Your first sentence below is asking a question.  You need to use a question mark and not a period at the end of your sentence!   Wait, they don't teach grammar in decades of freemasonry - my bad!
Guys, don't ANYONE EVER question ANYTHING swiftsearcher says. 
You can see what happens. 
And swiftsearcher, you are a real keyboard commando.  I'm "scum" am I?
If I told the lies you tell on here, I wouldn't be casting stones.

Again, please point out one LIE I have told on here.  If I pasted something from a website that is incorrect, that does NOT count as a lie btw, as I did not put that information out on the web - just read it!

Also, I did take plenty of history in college.  Unless history is incorrect, when nations "ruled" over other nations (such as the Phoenicians ruling over the Portuguese for nearly 800 years), the cultures mixed (intermarried, took parts of one another's customs, religions, etc.).  So, for you to say that Melungeons are Portuguese and not any part Phoenician is definitely incorrect!  I doubt you will find many PURE races on earth today, unless they are on an isolated island or jungle somewhere and have never experienced other races/cultures.  With the facts being that the Phoenicians RULED over the Portuguese for nearly 800 years and you to say Melungeons are definitely Portuguese with NO Phoenician blood/heritage is absolutely absurd!

Rebel, unfortunately, Dougherty does not give the journal in its entirety.  This was one of the first "pieces" I ever printed out on the web of Swift and very informative!  Thanks Ki for bringing it into discussion and I apologize I have been defending myself in this thread more than participating on topic.

Here is a link to the article btw.

http://www.dickensoncounty.net/swiftsilver.html

Now, to participate in Ki's thread:

Ki, one of the things I have noticed about the many different versions of the Swift Journals is that, of the John Swift journals, the "core information" remains the same - the directions to the mines, some of what was hidden, etc.  Also, these copies go into great detail.  Now, as to the George William Swift journals, they are almost all identical as well, but go into less detail.

I have also run across some other journals, said to be Swift Journals, but in no way resemble them.  I believe Mike Steely gives a great example of one of these in his book (a friend of mine has my Steely book now, so I cannot refer to it).  However, if my memory serves me correctly, it is a journal pinpointing the mine in the journal in Rose Hill, VA.

  Is "The Journal" on-line?   I would like to read it.   I think they are "chatting" about CARVINGS of the Square & COMPASS, on trees, rocks... w/o the "G"; NOT, what is written.   Would like to see "pics" of Square & Compass, as the "design" (S & C) MAY "tell" you a "guessed date". 
     BTW, YOU have  GREAT "pics", and asked Mike S. to review some stuff,
which is GREAT!  On TN, JOHN SWIFT'S LOST SILVER MINES (CARVINGS) @ http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=118013.0 is ALSO GREAT!   THIS/THAT is what we need
MORE of... 

I have looked and looked for versions of the journal on line......no luck their my Friend, just story's.
They were talking about a carving swift made of the "compass and square" when he surveyed the area of the mines, Notice he surveyed........
This carving would help him map the area, as well as find the concealed mines on his return......
I would like to see a picture of this carving as well.......and thanks for the pic comments rebel

Rebel, unfortunately, Dougherty does not give the journal in its entirety.  This was one of the first "pieces" I ever printed out on the web of Swift and very informative!  Thanks Ki for bringing it into discussion and I apologize I have been defending myself in this thread more than participating on topic.

Here is a link to the article btw.

http://www.dickensoncounty.net/swiftsilver.html

Now, to participate in Ki's thread:

Ki, one of the things I have noticed about the many different versions of the Swift Journals is that, of the John Swift journals, the "core information" remains the same - the directions to the mines, some of what was hidden, etc.  Also, these copies go into great detail.  Now, as to the George William Swift journals, they are almost all identical as well, but go into less detail.

I have also run across some other journals, said to be Swift Journals, but in no way resemble them.  I believe Mike Steely gives a great example of one of these in his book (a friend of mine has my Steely book now, so I cannot refer to it).  However, if my memory serves me correctly, it is a journal pinpointing the mine in the journal in Rose Hill, VA.

No biggie SS, its all good........I agree Steely has several versions of the swift journal in his book, I just happen to have it. I will look for this today.. I'm thinking what your referring to is in the the Flanagan version, Parson version, or Uncle Scott's version, of Steelys book....

I also agree that the diffrent version also hit the key MAIN points......

  Is "The Journal" on-line?   I would like to read it.   I think they are "chatting" about CARVINGS of the Square & COMPASS, on trees, rocks... w/o the "G"; NOT, what is written.   Would like to see "pics" of Square & Compass, as the "design" (S & C) MAY "tell" you a "guessed date". 
     BTW, YOU have  GREAT "pics", and asked Mike S. to review some stuff,
which is GREAT!  On TN, JOHN SWIFT'S LOST SILVER MINES (CARVINGS) @ http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=118013.0 is ALSO GREAT!   THIS/THAT is what we need
MORE of... 

I have looked and looked for versions of the journal on line......no luck their my Friend, just story's.
They were talking about a carving swift made of the "compass and square" when he surveyed the area of the mines, Notice he surveyed........
This carving would help him map the area, as well as find the concealed mines on his return......
I would like to see a picture of this carving as well.......and thanks for the pic comments rebel

Ki, also when Swift speaks of the blue rock with three "chop marks" on the stream flowing South, he mentions hiding a "prize" near a forked oak and marking some trees with a compass and square.  I have some pics of the blue rock, but quit looking that day, after finding two large dips at the rock, where something was dug up years ago and getting no hits on my detector.  I figured the other "prizes" were probably not there as well now and that the trees might even be dead or cut down.  However, after taking my better half and daughter out there one day, we noticed, in the distance, what seemed like some large trees with markings.  It was getting dark and my daughter getting scared, as the wind was blowing, but I made a mental note to check this area out again at a later date to see if, at least, the carvings might still be present.  I have always wondered about these particular carvings, as some journals state the carvings were MADE with a compass and square and were "peculiar marks", while other versions stated the carvings were OF a compass and square.

Gee..hate to get into the middle of this.

I have found 6 that lie within a 5 mile radius of each other. Found four in OH that was within 2 miles of each other. These are all old Indian silver mines and when you research it the Indians that bothered to write about it were right on the money, you just have to imagine what they are telling you…knowing its different symbology than we use...same goes for Swift clues.

-- Curtis

Would these 4 mines found in Ohio be in Southeastern by chance? Used to know of a place with a turkey foot (I know it is a common symbol of Indians) carved into a rock, this creek eventually drained into the Ohio (within a cople miles).

   KGC ALSO used "Turkey Tracks"... ALWAYS go to where the LONGEST/MIDDLE toe is pointing... to the NEXT "clue", or treasure.   IF... MIDDLE TOE is cut off; TOO late... "treasure" has been found/moved.

  Is "The Journal" on-line?   I would like to read it.   I think they are "chatting" about CARVINGS of the Square & COMPASS, on trees, rocks... w/o the "G"; NOT, what is written.   Would like to see "pics" of Square & Compass, as the "design" (S & C) MAY "tell" you a "guessed date". 
     BTW, YOU have  GREAT "pics", and asked Mike S. to review some stuff,
which is GREAT!  On TN, JOHN SWIFT'S LOST SILVER MINES (CARVINGS) @ http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=118013.0 is ALSO GREAT!   THIS/THAT is what we need
MORE of... 

I have looked and looked for versions of the journal on line......no luck their my Friend, just story's.
They were talking about a carving swift made of the "compass and square" when he surveyed the area of the mines, Notice he surveyed........
This carving would help him map the area, as well as find the concealed mines on his return......
I would like to see a picture of this carving as well.......and thanks for the pic comments rebel

Ki, also when Swift speaks of the blue rock with three "chop marks" on the stream flowing South, he mentions hiding a "prize" near a forked oak and marking some trees with a compass and square.  I have some pics of the blue rock, but quit looking that day, after finding two large dips at the rock, where something was dug up years ago and getting no hits on my detector.  I figured the other "prizes" were probably not there as well now and that the trees might even be dead or cut down.  However, after taking my better half and daughter out there one day, we noticed, in the distance, what seemed like some large trees with markings.  It was getting dark and my daughter getting scared, as the wind was blowing, but I made a mental note to check this area out again at a later date to see if, at least, the carvings might still be present.  I have always wondered about these particular carvings, as some journals state the carvings were MADE with a compass and square and were "peculiar marks", while other versions stated the carvings were OF a compass and square.

SS, good point you bring up....I have wonderd this very question about the "compass & sqaure" ....... either they made marks on a tree with the compass and square, or actually carved the compass and sqaure on a tree or rock.....This could help to relocate any thing swift could have hid when he came back, also could help him map the area as well.....could work both ways

The compass rock on LDC could have been used for something like this as well....       

   Yes, that IS interesting.   ANOTHER "clue" for y'all is a MASON'S MARK (MASONS MARKS) from the 4th Degree (YORK RITE).     They just "leave their mark"... so that "others,
in the know" will recognize their signature; a way of "signing off on it".  

  Yes, that IS interesting.   ANOTHER "clue" for y'all is a MASON'S MARK (MASONS MARKS) from the 4th Degree (YORK RITE).     They just "leave their mark"... so that "others,
in the know" will recognize their signature; a way of "signing off on it".   

Interesting....  what would these Mason's Marks from the 4th degree look like?   would they match any of the carvings associated with the Swift legend?
or are they like someones signature, something someone could reconize if came across?

   ALL "Mason's Marks" are individualized/personalized... NOT the S & C, or S & C with G.  In terms of Swift's Treasure(s), my guess is MM is just a "sign-off", like a supervisor (like I was...) signing on on "junior worker's report"... sorta like saying, "Been here, seen it... GONE!"    (SUNNY out...).

I see what ya mean now Reb.....

Which kinda makes me wonder how Swift would have carved the compass and square, some journals include the trowel. The marks where made on trees, which would make the carvings almost imposable to find, unless by some miracle the tree has survived all these years.

This is something like what i would think the compass and square would look like.....If in fact if Swift carved the compass and square on a tree.

   THAT is a very OLD symbol of the S & C... TWO framing squares "interlocked" w/o the "G"; The TROWEL is also implying MASONRY.   As a FORMER Stonemason's helper, I can vouch for these, being "tools of the CRAFT".  LATER symbols would have the "arms" being shorter than the "feet"... STILL w/o the "G".   You MAY find BEE HIVES, SCALE OF JUSTICE (BALANCE), etc.
I found a SCALE OF JUSTICE (BALANCE), carved on a HUGE bluff, here in Lynchburg, Va. & took a "pic" of it, which DID NOT "turn" out... gotta get a BETTER camera.

Rebel, funny you mentioned Bee Hives.  I have been doing much research on bees/beehives/Merovingians lately.  There are bee carvings at my site, and, the bear's den and back room of the Rich Mine are shaped like bee hives inside, with a deeply engraved "G" beside the tunnel that is connecting the two rooms!

Swiftsearcher, have you managed to open up the shaft at your site? I remember you liked about 3 or so feet, has your progress been good? Can you show me a picture of inside the opening, i would love to see it, mainly to somewhat compare it to my Mine. Send privately if you don't wanna post on Tnet. thanks in advance

Ki, unfortunately, when we were working on excavating the Rich Mine, I did not take my camera, as it was so dirty and I didn't want to ruin it.  I do need to get back and get some inside pics however and will forward you some privately when I get them.

Awesome, I cant wait to see them. I'm curious to see how the two chambers connect, and how the rock strata may lay. Is it in sandstone, limestone? I know at my First site i was doing everything i could to keep my camera clean when i took my pics of inside the shaft, the new site I'm at now drops down in the ground and goes level through a cave system, way to dark for pictures. I'll be able to take some once i have another person with me.  

With my digital camera, no matter how dark a cave system has been, I have been able to get some nice pictures, with the automatic flash. 

With my digital camera, no matter how dark a cave system has been, I have been able to get some nice pictures, with the automatic flash. 

I agree with ya 100%... I have a nice LED spotlight i use with the help of whomevers with me, it works rather well by lighting up more area in the farther parts of where a picture is taken, in other words just gives a little more detail.... I'll post some pics of where im searching at my new site after i finish with it.

I am a Mason myself, and like you it astonishes me how people try to tie Masons in with every legend they come across. As you said, it is fantasy nonsense, and some need to get a grip on reality.

I've been a Master Mason for all of my adult life (decades), have advanced in the craft and have an extensive masonic library, and I just have to bite my tongue when I see some of the misinformation that I've seen about Masons here on treasure net.  It really makes me cringe.  Now I'll be attacked or called a "naysayer" but that's fine.  I'm just trying to defend myself and my fellow freemasons against all this poppycock and pure fantasy nonsense.

Maybe George Bush and others need to "get a grip on reality" as well?  There is NO DOUBT in my mind, with my finds I have made, that this DOES RELATE TO BACON'S PLANS FOR A "NEW ATLANTIS"!  I will present the proof shortly to support this, if things don't happen first.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/-LbvQiWfi1I" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/-LbvQiWfi1I</a>

Come on guys let’s keep the bickering and stuff like that done by PM each other...if I were a newbie and saw the line of attacks I wouldn't be back.  I do know by having been on here for a while that all of you are very intelligent and have a lot of useful information. Lets hare it and leave the insults be. Someone was nice enough to start this thread let stick to the topic.

Swift didn’t do the pirate thing (see my post above) and there are some photo copies of land titles on the web that are located in England if I remember right.

well said Curtis....
I agree Swift was not a pirate, it does not make one ounce of cents, he was on to something in the mountains. A outlaw yes! he was a counterfeiter, but not a pirate.... id say Swift found plenty of gold (yes gold) with the silver as well, remember this, were you find silver you can usually find gold....its very possable, Swift even mentions of storing up gold and silver in the Shawnee cave. When Swift closed up the mines, he hid them so well that the Indians could not relocate them, that's why till this day they lay hidden... I often wonder this as well, and its my belief through research is that the dates on the Swift and Montgomery made crowns where dated either 1790 or 1791, thus being the time they all had planed to get back together and retrieve the loot...By the coins being of that date they would be recognized easily and know they were counterfeit, and he wouldn't have to worry about some of the men returning to steal the silver and gold that was stored up. He had to come up with a good way to keep them from back stabbing him. I could be wrong, but Swift was smart!    -Ki-

Hey Guys im new to this and was reading over this and have heard some stories before and just recently became interested in this and have a question... rumors say it was John swift but others also say william George and tom what if all 4 were correct? if anyone could give me feed back that would be awesome