Spanish Escudo Need Help With ID

This coin was found in the Delmarva  area on the beach and we need help iding it . Thanks Mark  

More pics.

Looks similar to a 1712-1713 Mexico 4 escudos. You need to get it looked at by a professional appraiser. 

What is it's weight in grams?
The cross itself was also on Philip V 8-escudos in 1711, 1712 and 1713, but the images within your cross's quadrants are foreign to me--no play on words intended.

I will  weight it this week on a certified scale .Thanks for the post Mark

Thanks for the post,
Provide the accurate weight in grams, and i am sure someone in this room will help you out.

My thoughts, hmmm.
I haven't seen this exact type before, either in books...or in person.
The previous thoughts from Macky and Cuzco hold up, but the "dot" within the 3 fluers-de-lis in the center of the coin indicate to me 1714...The cross 1712/1713 as stated.
The other elements...well they are making me scratch my head on this one.
I'll go with a later issue 1713...even a 1714 that used a 1713 die.
Buy thats just a gut guess......

Thanks again....

Trez

Trez; welcome back!
Don...

Approx. escudo weights: 8=27g; 4=13.5g; and 2=6.8grams.

From what I know, the 1711 crown is different than this one. That is why I put 1712 or 1713. Look at plate 10 in Alan K. Craig and you will see the 1711. There is a 1712 or 1713 8 escudo royal in the second National Geograpic article on the 1715 wrecks, and I am pretty sure this is the type of crown I saw on it.

Just checked my pics and found pretty much a die match from a 1713 J Mexico 4E.

From what I know, the 1711 crown is different than this one. That is why I put 1712 or 1713. Look at plate 10 in Alan K. Craig and you will see the 1711. There is a 1712 or 1713 8 escudo royal in the second National Geograpic article on the 1715 wrecks, and I am pretty sure this is the type of crown I saw on it.

Just checked my pics and found pretty much a die match from a 1713 J Mexico 4E.

Where can one find the National Geographic article mentioned above?

rfb:
Your local library will have direct or indirect (interlibrary search and recovery) access to this publication.
Don....
PS: Welcome to Treasure Net!!

Where can one find the National Geographic article mentioned above?

You can usually get one (the whole magazine) pretty cheap on Ebay....

Stan

The lack of Granada on the shield below Castille and Leon also identifies it as 1713.

Hi to us!!
I'm sure that this coin is: 1 Escudo of Felipe V Mexico with mint mark xo
Which is the weigth?
Regards.
Jordi.
www.antiquespaincoins.com

I agree with Cuzco about the coin being 1713. The "cross" ends to the cross indicate 1711, '12 or '13. What I also see that distinquishes it as 1713 are the two (only) verticle lines in Aragon (versus 3 in 1714) and the fully crossed "X" in Naples and Sicily (upper right--if coin were in proper position) that only appears in 1713 (of the '11, '12, and '13) coins.

From what I know, the 1711 crown is different than this one. That is why I put 1712 or 1713. Look at plate 10 in Alan K. Craig and you will see the 1711. There is a 1712 or 1713 8 escudo royal in the second National Geograpic article on the 1715 wrecks, and I am pretty sure this is the type of crown I saw on it.

Just checked my pics and found pretty much a die match from a 1713 J Mexico 4E.

Where can one find the National Geographic article mentioned above?

I may have it but Ill have to search.

Beautiful coin but is it supposed to have that seam on the edge?

NO, that seam on the edge is an indication it is a COPY.
that is the mold separation line from doing the coin in a mold. Then doing a wax injection into the mold. a slight seam line is left. Then it is lost wax cast.

I have done in personally. Notice the details are not as sharp as they should be, as its not a struck coin.
It was probably made for use in jewelry then removed. Or somoene was making a fake and was very lazy about the process.
I bet there is a spot on the coin where there is no seam line, this would be where the spru was.

Also please take note the coin is polished on both the high surfaces and the low...this can only be done by machine pin polishing. a Struck coin will have traces of mint luster from being struck, and sharp details. This coin has neither, and a seam line.

Another give away is the porosity. The little holes on the side of the coin...would not be on a struck coin.

I can say with confidence that this is a casting. most likely used for jewelry.

Not to be rude or Harsh. But its a copy.

Thank you very much for letting me know that it is a copy ! I was wondering that because the coin looks to good if that makes any sense. Mark

I dont know if this has been mentioned but have it tested to see if its about 22K.

I really cant because its an older lady that found it years ago and i dont have the heart to tell her its a fake . Mark

I really cant because its an older lady that found it years ago and i dont have the heart to tell her its a fake . Mark

OK. The seam looks bad but I didnt realize that it was positively determined to be a copy. If its not gold, its fake. The easiest test.

please keep in mind that a lot of fakes are made of gold, to copy for numismatic value you want to get as much right as possible. Including alloy.
I have found many fake US gold coins...why, because they can bring %20 to x3 premiums...fakes of even common dates!
Some have a little bit of silver in the alloy...by XRF Test.
Keep in mind a fake Cob coin may only be a couple hundred dollars in any gold alloy...but can be several thousand sold to a collector or to a fooled suspect. Cobs are VERY easy to fake...Like I said. I have done it. Not to fool anyone, But for my own experimentation.  For anyone with a half brain who has any jewelry or casting skills. its an easy task...anyone who takes the time to clean up the seam lines...can fool some experts.
2 months ago in Baltimore at the Biggest Coin show in the World I showed one of my fake 24k cobs...a 2 escudo. to a dealer. I asked him what he though, he was ready to plop down $800 to me...as i was wearing a dealer badge too. I said you better double check it. I know its a fake...How he said? Because I made it with my own two hands in 2003. he though the lack of crisp details was salt water damage...I said no, check the edge...casting. GOLD Does not get salt water damage. Had I removed the seam on the edge...an easy thing to do BTW. I could have taken this guy.

Moral is...BE CAREFUL when it comes to crude coins, especially cobs. Learn to look at crisp details, learn what mint luster is. Learn what original surfaces should look like. DO your research, and buy from only trusted Dealers who KNOW there stuff.

Also, its VERY important to inform people if its a fake...broken heart or not, not matter if they are a friend or not. If you dont, its as bad as telling a lie if you know better...otherwise, these same people will propagate incorrect information. This Will either.
1. Make them look bad or like a lair,
2. Get them in trouble if they ever go to sell it, or if someone in there family goes to sell it.

Moral is. Just because you care for someone...if you really care about them. For gods and your own consciences sake. Dont make them come across as a con artist, stupid, uninformed...should I go on? ignorance is not a favor.

Dont try to come across as a know it all either. get second opinions. There are plenty of professionals out there who will tell you straight up, hey, I think this is.
1. real,
2. Fake,
3. I am not sure, But I feel someone of better expertize should give you an opinion. Here is a reference.

And if they tell you its fake and offer to buy it, RUN. Be upfront that your just looking for authentication. A reputable Dealer will want you to be informed as its lends to better business down the road. They will tell you what it is. some history, and give you an estimate value.

All coins trade on pretty tight margins, Like an ounce of gold, Is it fair to buy at $20 under and sell for $20 over...of course.

All this information should be common sense.
No amount of Wishful thinking will make something authentic.
And if you know something to be wrong and dont disclose it, I feel that makes one just as bad as the forger and deceiver who made the thing in the first place.
Ignorance of course is forgivable.
But honesty is worth more than any gold. Even if it hurts. People do appreciate it! And, its the right thing to do.

Jewelerdave:
Two excellent posts; thanks.
Don....

The obvious thing to say to this is weigh the coin and that will tell you a lot about it. Without knowing the weight, it is hard to know what is going on, and that is why I framed the answer the way I did.

I have a couple National Geographic magazines from the 1970's that have an advertisement for this particular type of Mexico doubloon as a jewelry piece, and I saw one last year on EBay for sale as a pendant that I actually bid on for the gold content. They are underweight about 40% from what they should be, and show signs of casting using a two sided mold process to form the wax.

JewelerDave brings up a good point about the uniformity of the wear across this piece. It looks a little grainy and like it has been tumble polished. Better equipment can yield a much more authentic looking piece, but that equipment was not used in the production of these jewelry pieces, and real style characteristics of the coins were not considered.

  

I have a couple National Geographic magazines from the 1970's that have an advertisement for this particular type of Mexico doubloon as a jewelry piece, and I saw one last year on EBay for sale as a pendant that I actually bid on for the gold content.
  

It would be cool to see a pic of the Nat. Geo. ad or the old ebay sale.

I have a couple National Geographic magazines from the 1970's that have an advertisement for this particular type of Mexico doubloon as a jewelry piece, and I saw one last year on EBay for sale as a pendant that I actually bid on for the gold content.
  

It would be cool to see a pic of the Nat. Geo. ad or the old ebay sale.

I would be interested in what issue date NG that was if you happen to run across it....

Stan

See if Dale is around at Sea Shell City. He may be able to help. I have dug many re ales on the Delmarva and a few Rose Guineas but never one of those. Good Luck.

Fake