Developing my own digging tool.. Tell me what you think..

[Current Detectors:]

I know there's several great digging tools already availible like the Lesche, Predator, etc.. and I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel here, but none of them are perfect for me, so I'm working on my own design.

A few issues I have with some of the top digging tools are:

1) Carry method.. Most of the really good tools come with a sheath.. The problem with that (for me) is that after you dig a hole, your digger will have dirt/mud on it.. and when you try to re-insert it in the sheath it will fill up with dirt aswell. I usually end up getting discouraged with trying to get the muddy thing in the sheath and end up putting it in my pocket.. Then at the end of the day I have a pocket full of dirt. My solution to that problem was to incorporate a belt clip which doubles as a finger guard right on the digging tool.





2) Handle comfort.. in my opinion, any digging tool that costs $40+ should come standard with a comfortable handle. I used the slip over foam grip on mine and it feels really soft and comfortable. And since the end of the tube handle is left open, I found a cool little cork type cap which turns the handle into a great place to store a small tooth brush for field cleaning, or whatever else.





3) Blade length.. Most of the ones I've tried have blade lengths between 6 and 7.5 inches.. I wanted a little more so I made it with an 8.5" blade (around 14" overall). I made the hand guard just big enough to cover the front of your hand in order to make up for the extra weight of the slightly longer blade.



The front of it kinda looks like a Cobra.. I think thats what I'll call it. 





It won't be anytime soon, but after I locate some materials and get a few more of these built I may send a couple out to members here for review.

What do you think?

Looks great...I agree with the dirt issues but I do worry about carrying a large blade in public..but then again in some parts of town its good protection!..Put me on the prototype list.

I'm still new to most of the tools so to speak I've only been into the hobby since May, one of the problems I find is I'm not a petite boy an tend to mangle things when not being careful or not paying attention .I love the looks of your digger for us bigger guys that need something very sturdy an solid , between my big gorilla paws an hard ground here that looks like it would make an ideal tool an I definitely like the belt clip idea , The red head screams at me cause I've allways got pockets fulla sand or dirt .I'd luv to be on your tester list when your ready .

HH Tank 

May be a good size for a relic hunter but looks a little too large for most coin shooters (maybe the larger market for such a tool).  I always use a leather nail apron / pouch for my detecting hand tools and just put the digger in the large pocket.  
The belt clip / guard looks like may interfer with the ground as you dig out the hole / plug?
Maybe you want to add 1/8" to 1/4" thick foam or rubber on the plate around the handle / grip so you don't get blisters on your fingers on those difficult to dig hole or while sawing / cutting a root.

If you are looking for a tester, I'm ready.
Jeff

[Current Detectors:]

Thanks for the comments and suggestions fellas. Since you three were the first to reply, you can be my testers when I get the ball rollin'. That should be enough for now.

Jeff,
Thats a good point about it being a bit on the large (long) side for coinshooting. I may have two models with one being a little shorter.

BTW, the digging tool isn't nearly as big as it appears to be in the picture hanging on a belt. Its a little misleading. You see, the guy (a co-worker) that I got to model it for me in that picture is only about 5'2" tall.. So he makes it appear to be much larger than it really is.

As for the handle interfering with the hole/plug, I've used it a few times already and that hasn't been a problem for me but the jury is still out. Thats what I need you guys (the testers) for.  

That clip's an ingenious idea! I usually have to wipe all the mud/dirt/sand off on my pants when I use mine, just for that exact reason. I've cleaned my sheath out once, but it was pretty tough to get dried up mud out. I like that you can store stuff in the handle too!
Sweet digger...


Bran <><

I like the idea of the hand guard/clip. Make it HEAVIER and Thicker it could be used as leverage

[Current Detectors:]

Thanks for the comments guys. 

NWGA-RelicHunter  thank you for choosing me as one of your testers , I'd be more than happy to test it out for you .


Thanks again Tank 

That is a beautiful looking digger you got there! What kind of metal you using? Is that parkerized? I really like the belt clip idea, although I usually end up just carrying my digger and screwdriver probe in my left hand and swing the detector with my right.

[Current Detectors:]

NWGA-RelicHunter  thank you for choosing me as one of your testers , I'd be more than happy to test it out for you .


Thanks again Tank  

No problem.. Thank you for testing. Like I said though, it'll be a while before I have them ready. Right now I'm still working on locating materials and building jigs. I'll send all three of you guys a private message when I have them ready.

That is a beautiful looking digger you got there! What kind of metal you using? Is that parkerized? I really like the belt clip idea, although I usually end up just carrying my digger and screwdriver probe in my left hand and swing the detector with my right.

Thank you very much. This prototype is just plain old 11 ga mild steel painted flat black. The final product will most likely be made from hardened and tempered high carbon steel so that it'll be strong and hold an edge.

Nice looking digger, but as a coin shooter, a smaller model would be nice.

 

Ray S

I think your idea and design is great. Our soils out here are very compacted. Tank is the perfect guy to test it for ya .

i would be interested in trying one out, i have the same bomplaints in diggers, i end up carrying mine due to a lack of anywhere to keep it. i like the beltclip idea. strength and durability are other concerns. I have boken almost all of the diggers ive used.
 bet one ive bought yet was  from ace hardware(lifetime warrenty), but its blade length is only 4 inches.
 po box 157
genoa wv 25517

The idea looks ok.

Heres a rough drawing of what I'd like to see:



The "V" on the top is to easier got on top of roots and just cut them open. (simply by pushing down wards)
The cut out white part is just to symbolize saw teeth, paint ain't perfect.
The handle isn't perfectly drawn either; I'm to lazy. But it shows the idea.

A bigger end cap would be great, more place to push the digger down into the earth, it can make it easier. Also don't use to thick steel; it will make it harder to dig.
Stainless steel is neat.

hey extractor was that some kinda big guy joke lol I dont get it .

Very sturdy looking tool you created NWGA Relic Hunter!
Im sure it will perform as you intended it to.

[Current Detectors:]

Thanks for all the comments, suggestions and replies. I will difinitely keep the suggestions in mind.

My main concerns right now are to make it as tough and durrable as possible, while keeping the weight down at the same time. The current prototypes are made out of 11 ga steel (about the same thickness as other popular diggers like the lesche) so its not heavy. But to make it durrable, it needs to be made out of a high carbon steel so that it can be hardened and tempered. Right now I'm in the process of getting some quotes on sheets of high carbon steel (among other materials).  I don't want to build an inferior digging tool (there's already plenty of them on the market). I want to build a nearly indestructable tool that will last a lifetime. So this will be a slow process.. It most likely won't be on the market anytime soon.. but if I have my way about it, the final product will be very nice and very tough.

ohhhhh....I like it...wouldn't mind test running one for you :-)

put me on the list to i am a digging tool aholic i have about 7 different types and 4 different shovels  so hey keep me in mind  i digg all year round and it freezes here in missouri as shark pit i sent him some pics of me from last winter

[Current Detectors:]

Hey guys.. Just to let you know, I haven't forgot about this project.. Its just been on the backburner for a while because Im in the process of moving right now and I'm having to devote all my time to doing it. I'll post updates when I have them.

no problem we all have real lives we have to deal with an I doubt any of us are tapping our fingers impatiently waiting for you lol perfection takes time an I know none of us want you turning out something your not satisfied a 100% with.


HH Tank

PS congrats on the new move 

Looks like you are on the right track.  That appears to a quality design.  Shows skill as a fabricator.  As for coin hunting I like a little longer, so far.  I added length to my ames digger by welding a piece into the V notch for cutting roots.  That added about an inch to its 6 to make about 7.5.  As for your serations they look generous.  The ames tool I use has serations more like a steak knife, I like them.  I have not used the type of serations you have so I don't have a frame of referance.

To the guy who wants a v-notch,  I welded mine closed.  Have you used one?

HH
Jeff

I would suggest serrations on both sides for ambidextrous rotary operation of plug cutting

i will be more than glad to put it through its paces in the frozen ground of northwest missouri in a couple of months 

Man that puppy is lethal....something Arnold would  use.... I examined it closely seems like it will be perfect for the Missouri soil and especially the root systems we have here in MO.... Last couple of weeks out there has been  a battle with the roots for me.

[Current Detectors:]

Tank69,
Thank you. We're almost done with the move.. We have everything at the new house but still have about a hundred boxes to unpack. You never realize how much junk you own until you have to move.

TURNMASTER,
Thanks for the kind words. This design isn't set in stone yet, but I've been using mine for about a month now and its working pretty good for me. I might end up changing the serations again before putting the final product into production.

@ Everyone else, thanks for the comments.

I've got a few quotes on high carbon steel for these, but right now heat treating and tempering is going to be an issue for me. We have an oven here where I work, but it doesn't get nearly hot enough to do what I need.. So now I'm researching other places to cut, form, heat treat and temper them for me. This project is still in its early stages and has been on the backburner for a while, but hopefully after I get settled in the new house I can find the right company to get this off the ground. I don't want to produce just another el-cheapo digger (already plenty of them availible).. I want this to be a quality piece at an affordable price.. So just gonna keep looking until I find the right people to help me produce it.

I'm a beginner and don't have a digging tool yet would love to test yours and get my first digging tool also. Thanks! and if I don't get one well thanks for making something better!

Frank

NWGA-RelicHunter -
That is a nice looking job there.
I agree with some that do not want the V point.
Makes it harder to dig.
The saw pattern on both sides idea was great Brett.
On your first post, the pic #5 shows the blade guard and blade.
By the angle of the photo I can see a man's face profile. The nose.
Imagination.
Anyway, I see a round area at the center of the blade/guard interface at an angle.
This would add strength to the digger.
440 C stainless steel is heat treatable but I don't know if you can buy it in sheet stock.
It might make digger expensive. But quality counts.

Grey
 

Looks great...I agree with the dirt issues but I do worry about carrying a large blade in public..but then again in some parts of town its good protection!..Put me on the prototype list.

HELL YA ME TOO SING ME UP FOR A TESTER OUT HERE IN COLORADO... WE HAVE SOME TOUGH SOIL OUT HERE FOR DIGGING ..... I HAVE BROKE MANY DIGGING TOOLS... OVER THE YEARS STILL HAVE NOT FOUND A GOOD ONE AT A FAIR PRICE!!!!!!

You show extraordinary craftsmanship in your digging tool.  I think the belt clip is a great idea to do away with a sheath full of dirt.......until I jump in my truck after a hunt and forget its still attached to my belt. I'm sure I could still drive myself to the ER with my good leg. JJ

[Current Detectors:]

Thanks for the kind words guys.

Here's a little update on this project:

I've run into a brick wall as far as finding someone to form and temper the blades for these things.. I've found companies who can form it for me, but they can't temper it and vice versa.. The problem with that is if I have to have them formed at one location, then sent off to be heat treated & tempered somewhere else, and then returned to me for final assembly, boxing and distribution.. well as you can imagine that would be way too expensive. So I'm just going to have to keep chopping at the bit until I can find someone who can complete the blades in one place and then send them to me for final assembly.

In the mean time, I decided to go ahead and assemble three more of these from mild steel which I will send out to my testers sometime in January:



These prototypes are not hardened or tempered and will not be nearly as strong as the final product, but the main thing I'm wanting to get some feedback on is the design, so they should be fine for testing purposes. Plus, even from mild steel the prototypes will still be fairly strong.

Thanks to everyone who has offered to test these for me.. I wish I could send you all one, but for now I can only afford to send out three of these to the guys I promised them too (Miningtown, Tank69, and Jeff In North Georgia).

When the time comes to ship them, I'll send those guys a private message and get their shipping addresses.. If by chance I don't hear back from one of them after a week or two (once I've sent the PM) I'll send one to the next person in line who offered to test one.

A note to my testers: Like I said, I have three prototypes complete but I won't be shipping them until sometime in January ($$ is too tight right now with trying to buy x-mas gifts for the kids & grandkids).. But I will get them out to you guys by the end of next month. Once you get them and try them out for a few weeks (or a couple of hunting trips), I'd appreciate it if you would post an honest review here to let me and everyone else know what you think of the design. Tell us what you think of the size, the belt clip, handle comfort, etc. And again, please keep in mind that the units I'll be sending you are only intended for reviewing the design (not strength). The prototypes are made from mild steel, but the final product will be of hardened, tempered much stronger carbon steel.

Lets see... What else? Oh yeah.. I made up a logo for the website whenever I get around to building it. 



Thanks again for all the feedback and replies so far. 

Very nice logo.
 
Ray S

Love the logo and keep us informed on the status of the tool maybe I can afford one when they are ready for sale.

are you going to make a right handed digger since the way you have the teeth now would be easier to cut for a lefty with the cutting teeth on the left side would make it easier for a rigthy to cut with.

 I like new ideas and am also old fashioned as I still dig with a Swiss Bayonet and use little limb trimmers for roots. I like your design. My question is would you have more strength with the blade in line with the handle. I ask this as one who uses tools for a living and happens to fence in epee which deals with point in line. I like to see what my blade is doing basically. I think you are on to a good idea and cutting right handed would be best on a down stroke. A leather pad from a fencing supply at the base or pommel would add comfort as well when pushing and inserting into the ground.
 Good luck. You have talent.
TnMountains

[Current Detectors:]

Very nice logo.
 
Ray S

Thanks Ray.

Love the logo and keep us informed on the status of the tool maybe I can afford one when they are ready for sale.

Thanks Frank. I will keep this thread up to date on the status.

are you going to make a right handed digger since the way you have the teeth now would be easier to cut for a lefty with the cutting teeth on the left side would make it easier for a rigthy to cut with.

I could put the teeth on either site. I'm right handed and prefer the teeth the way they are now. Its just a personal preference thing I guess. But yeah, It wouldnt be a problem to offer them with teeth on the oposite side. We may do that. Thanks for the suggestions.

I like new ideas and am also old fashioned as I still dig with a Swiss Bayonet and use little limb trimmers for roots. I like your design. My question is would you have more strength with the blade in line with the handle. I ask this as one who uses tools for a living and happens to fence in epee which deals with point in line. I like to see what my blade is doing basically. I think you are on to a good idea and cutting right handed would be best on a down stroke. A leather pad from a fencing supply at the base or pommel would add comfort as well when pushing and inserting into the ground.
 Good luck. You have talent.
TnMountains

Thanks for the comments TnMountains. I've tried a few different designs before the current tool, and one of them was actually in line with the handle like you are talking about. It was pretty strong, but after digging with it for a while I found the offset blade like the Lesche design and the current Cobra prototype to be more comfortable for me. Again, thats a personal preference thing, as Im sure plenty of people like the inline design better. But I believe once I find the right high carbon steel and have it hardened and tempered properly, strength will not be an issue. A leather or foam pad on the back of the hand guard would make it more comfortable. I will definitely check into that once I get this thing set up for production.

Thanks again for the comments guys.

Humm? It seems several of us live close enough to be neighbors?

Been reading this thread and I had a few thoughts that may help...
or may not?
Metal used in tools needs to match the job they are built for.
Just a few options to look at...
Many tempered tool steels is very hard... and 440C stainless is the same way...
only many times carbon steels price. Hardened steels with a high temper can also be brittle
and easily chipped by rock. and can break before they bend. They make great knife blades...
but a poor digging tools!
I would think a good steel to use would be one that was easy enough to form and
not need to be tempered. Yet have the strength to be a lasting digging tool and not require the
extra cost to temper.
One steel that might be worth looking at would be 4130 chromoly steel, which has a good
tensile strength(97200psi) and yield strength(63100psi). The cost would be less and should make
a digging tool that would do a fine job.

Just some food for thought.
Wayne
Cleveland, Tennessee

NWGA---
         I haven't read every post so I may be suggesting something you've already mentioned.  But, have you tried using the driveshaft from junk cars as the source for your material?  It already has a linear curve and is steel that is toughened to resist breaking and twisting.  If you grind the edges slowly enough as to not get the metal hotter than a dark red color,  the metal should keep it's temper.  Welding the handle attachment shouldn't have a bad effect on the tool's temper.  Heat the whole piece with a torch to a dull red color then allow it to cool down slowly to relieve any stresses caused by the cutting and welding. 

NWGA have you heard the storys of the cannons in your graveyard down there?

For a tool holder, I use a Klien number 5129 flashlight holder. It has a bottom but it is not closed off so any dirt just falls through. I do not know how to post a picture but go to their web site and look at it. It does not have any way to hold the digger in so it is possible to fall out if you turn it upside down. I have never had my digger come out while using it.

For a source of tempered steel try leaf springs from old light weight cars. Another source is rotary lawn mower blades.

I am sure you can buy untempered tool steel that can be tempered when you are through. Do some reading on how to do it. Basically you heat it to some temp, usually judged by the color, then dip in oil. Water will chill it too quickly and cause it to become brittle.

Mild steel will not be tempered well but it can be case hardened. That leaves a softer core but a very hard surface that can hold an edge very well. You heat it to a cherry red then rub it in carbon/graphite until it is no longer red. Not sure it this would be good for a digging tool. Very good for knives.

Check local commercial welding/fabricating companies for information about tempering. If they cannot do it for you, they may be able to refer you to someplace close by. Something all old time blacksmiths could do as part of their trade.

If you're going to make a digging tool to sell you need to consider many things.
The metal you use needs to be as easy as possible to fabricate.
The metal must be at a reasonable price and easy to obtain.
If the metal in the standard form meets the requirements you need to do the job,
this will lower your cost by not having to do extra steps, such as post heat treat.

Just remember, when a metal is used because it is the best for one application,
it may be a poor choice when used in a different way. 440C stainless makes a nice blade for a knife because
it is hard and will hold an edge. But shove it into the ground several times and you will see it will chip from hitting rock.
When making a digging tool you need the metal to have a high "fatigue limit". The highest load that can be repeatedly applied without breaking a material is known as the fatigue or endurance limit. AISI 4130 alloy steel shines at 130 ksi, over three times greater than the next closest alloy, 440C stainless steel. That's the reason many knife blades break when they are used as a pry bar!

I would consider using 4130 because it fits most of the requirements for a digging tool for resell.
If I make a digging tool for myself, it will be made from Grade 5, titanium. But I wouldn't be making it for resell!

[Current Detectors:]

Thanks for the replies and suggestions about types of steel guys. I'm familiar with the hardening and tempering process, and the different types of steel. While using items such as leaf springs, driveshafts and lawnmower blades etc and hand heat treating each one would probably be fine for making a few tools for your own personal use, it just wouldn't be feasable for producing a large quantity. In order to keep the cost of the tool low and competitive with other digging tools, I would need to get these produced in large quantities at a single location. In order to do that, you would need to cut them from flat stock on a cnc plasma or laser, form them on a press, harden and temper them by the batch in a large oven, etc. True, I could do it myself one by one, but it would be much more costly and time consuming without having all the proper equipment and materials.

NWGA have you heard the storys of the cannons in your graveyard down there?

Yep, Myrtle Hill Cemetary. Located right accross the river from the old foundry which manufactured cannons. Apperently archaeologists used some kind of ground penetrating radar and located some large cannon shaped object at the cemetary. Rumor has it that they burried some cannons there and dumped several more into the river to keep union troops from getting their hands on them. I've detected "near"  that area and made some pretty nice finds.

yes a nice historical area. Keep us updated on your tool. Might have to give it a try up here around Chattanooga 

I'm familiar with the hardening and tempering process, and the different types of steel.

What type of steels were you considering and the hardness and range of temper?

[Current Detectors:]

What type of steels were you considering and the hardness and range of temper?

Well I would like to use 4130 chrome moly. That would definitely be ideal for a digging tool. But heat treatment for 4130 requires a furnace to reach 1600+ degress. Thats the problem. I don't have access to such a furnace, and I don't want to do these individually by hand because no two of them would be the same hardness (this would cause inconsistencies and quality problems). The steel has to be cut and formed before it can be hardened and tempered..  So thats why I'm trying to find a company who can do everything in house at a single location. Otherwise I would have to have the steel shipped to me so that I can cut it and form it, then shipped to someone else for the hardening and tempering proccess, and then shipped back to me again for final assembly, packaging and distribution. There's no way I could keep the price competitive if I do it that way.

[Current Detectors:]

Tank, Jeff & Minningtown,
Your prototypes shipped out yesterday. Should be there within a week or two.

I would use that weapon in battle

back to your tempering problem. If you are welding the handle to the blade you will want it tempered afterwards. case hardening is another option that works very well.

[without]

I believe if I was thinking about making a tool for resell, I would try to design a digging tool that could be made without having to heat treat the metal after it's formed... unless I had all the equipment to do the required work "in house". When you get a subcontractor to complete any step in a products development, you loose total control over the quality of that process and also cut into the profit you would gain...
That is the reason I suggested using a steel that wouldn't require to be heat treated after the tool is made.
4130 (Chromoly) Normalized Alloy Steel would be a steel that could be worked and still maintain the properties needed to make a digging tool similar to the Lesche Digging tool without the extra expense of heat treat.
4130 can be welded without having to have a treatment after welding on metals that are about 1/8"(10ga) or less and still give a strong bond.
A digging tool must have some flexibility and yield, yet still maintain it's shape after repeated use. If the temper is to high the metal will be giving up the yield for hardness that would lead to the possibility of the tool breaking and not flexing under a heavy load.
If you don't know what the combination of "strength", "flexibility", and "yield", looks like under a heavy load this should explain it.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/YebF2x76SYE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/YebF2x76SYE</a>

What a fine knife to wear into a bar!!!   Lol!!!

[Current Detectors:]

Number9,
Thanks for that info. I really would love to be able to produce the digging tool myself without needing any outside help.. The only thing I want to make sure of is that I can produce a high quality tool that is equal to (or better than) the Lesche in strength and quality. Otherwise, its not worth doing (IMO). Lesche uses hardened and tempered 4130 .120 (11ga) for their blades.. You are correct, their is a fine line between making a blade too brittle with the heat treating process and too soft (not hardened or tempered) which would just allow it to bend with too much pressure. I don't want these blades to bend, like the el-cheapo diggers on the market. I don't want them to break easily either. Its going to take a little (a lot?) experimenting on my part to find the perfect combination of yeild and hardness. I will definitely take your advice and try to find a steel that will do the job without needing to be hardened and tempered. If 4130 turns out to have the right combo of flex and hardness without needing to be heat treated, great. Thats what I'll use. But if it doesn't work out and I can't find something that will fit the bill, I'd rather give up on the idea completely than produce an inferior product.


Someone mentioned case hardening the mild steel that I'm currently using. That may work OK for putting an edge on it, but it won't do much for overall strength as case hardening only hardens the outside (case) of the metal.

Going with a thicker steel to improve strenght isn't really an option either, as it would make the tool too heavy.

Thanks again for the comments and suggestions guys.

 bump    How is it going.   Have ya been able to get it into production?

[Current Detectors:]

bump    How is it going.   Have ya been able to get it into production?

Unfortunately no. I have been in contact with a few companies who offered to produce it, but the $$$ it takes to get started (buying samples, initial purchase, etc) is just beyond what I can afford right now. The old saying "it takes money to make money" is 100% correct.

TANK69,

Is the picture in post #15 of you in the old "Colorado River" in Yuma?

Ed D.

Ok, you talked me into it...........I'll be an official tester!    I want one of those

I would make the handle a bit longer for leverage,, also I would give this digger a shot if youd like a field tester, I d be happy to compare it to my skydriver,my favorite coin tool.Looks like you have a good adaptation there, is the material thermoplastic or metal? Or  combination?  Thanks!  1guy

For a blade to be tempered, it must have enough carbon in. Then when you temper it, you take the blade to a specific temp and then quench it to harden it. Then you reheat to a lower specified temp to draw it back from being too brittle. You can draw it back enough to make the steel springy then reheat the edge and requench it. This produces a strong edge with a flexable backbone. This would be time consuming but would make the best blade.
The use of 4130 chrome allows for a hard blade that is wear resistent. Using a leafspring out of a small vehicle would make a great digger knifer steel. It is a spring steel. You can get them at junkyards pretty cheap and find the size you need to keep from having to do a lot of work on it. You can find the width and thickness you needs and then just shape the blade. A good nickel steel would make a flexable wear resistent blade as well.
Your digger looks like a good design. I would like to see a set of teeth on both sides with a slight tooth offset like a saw blade. This will make it cut.

hook me up i will test one for you with the nw missouri winter diggin