Mysterious Tin Coin - part of Templar legacy?

Maybe it went to a Sword handle ?

This has now gotten way beyond silly.
I thought I could find some help on this forum.  Evidently, I was wrong.
Since you guys are more interested in making fun of this more than helping, I am taking my questions to others who are more serious.

 

Vastic

Stick with it my Friend, there are still plenty here that are still interested and believe what you are saying, and not making assumptions on the item based on the PICTURES you provided

Could you perhaps clear up the gray parts, which johnnyi keeps refering to as adhesive

SS

"and believe what you are saying, and not making assumptions on the item based on the PICTURES you provided"


Yes SS, those pesky pictures!  Anyway, here is a scan to show you exactly where cement is present. Look to the lower left in particular, where a blob of it is not only within the scored line, but mounds above it. You find the same materal in other spots if you look carefully.

The second scan shows the pry mark, and the spot where the tool used to pry this out slid and scratched the reverse (two thin lines consisant with a small screw driver). 

"and believe what you are saying, and not making assumptions on the item based on the PICTURES you provided"


Yes SS, those pesky pictures!  Anyway, here is a scan to show you exactly where cement is present. Look to the lower left in particular, where a blob of it is not only within the scored line, but mounds above it. You find the same materal in other spots if you look carefully.

The second scan shows the pry mark, and the spot where the tool used to pry this out slid and scratched the reverse (two thin lines consisant with a small screw driver).  

All I see is something grey how do you know it's cement you are basically judging from a picture he has already said there is no adhesive on the find and I see no pry mark just a mark that you have pointed out, and have concluded it's a pry mark, just to fit your own assumptions

Thank you for at least getting the SS right

SS

"you are basically calling the poster a liar"

sigh...  Believe what you want.  I'm outa here.

Sorry johnnyi bad choice of phrase..Me bad.

SS

"All I see is something grey  how do you know it's cement  you are basically judging from a picture  he has already said there is no adhesive on the find  and I see no pry mark  just a mark that you have pointed out, and have concluded it's a pry mark, just to fit your own assumptions"

To answer your questions in order:

You see something grey. I assume you see it filling some of the line and mounding in small areas.  The grey material is the fact. The judgment that it is cement is a judgement based on everything else: the fact it is scored on the back; the fact that it is a thin weak metal which needed some rigidity (you can tell it is thin by the impression on the verso, and know it is weak by the composition metal); the obvious discoloration and blotching not consistant with the front patina; and the appearance of what resembles cement itself.

As far as judging from pictures is concerned, this is all we have. Pictures are what  U.S. courts rely on above verbal descriptions, and there is a reason for that. Clear pictures rarely "lie", and these seem to be very good pictures.
(Remember too, if we were to have relied on words rather than pictures we would be led to believe "this is either a coin or a medallion" (which the vast majority of posters experienced in coins and medallions see as very unlikely),
We'd be  following the clue that "the lines on the back were not made at random" (I think virtually everyone would disagree with that observation):
and we'd be led to believe that this "coin was NEVER attached to anything" ever! (which is a baseless claim cosidering provenance is unknown.) Because of such statements, as well as the orchestrated drama surrounding this thing, we are then forced  to rely on pictures rather than words.

Regarding the pry mark; yes, this was mentioned to "fit my own assumptions". Based on all the above, my assumptions (the assumptions of many of us) were that this object must have been removed from something else.
Because  it was most likely flush with what it was in, I looked for the spot where it was pried off. If it was mounted, there had to be a spot somewhere. That spot can be seen on the top of the object, bright, dented in, and with equally bright shallow scratch marks beneath it (which logically would have been there also.)  In other words SS, it's how all these things are related to one another tells the story.

 
 

Thanks SS for all your support.  At least you have the right idea.

I don't know why Johnnyi has this hang-up about cement or glue or whatever adhesive is in his brain....there is no adhesive. I don't care what he thinks he sees on the photos. You can't judge the finish by a photo.

Regardless, I have moved on and the photos has been sent to the Rosicrucian order in the US, who have now forwarded them to the order in France for identification of the symbols.
We will see where that leads.
I'll keep you posted.

 

Clear pictures rarely "lie",
 

Johnnyi,

When I first saw the pictures last year, I also thought it was adhesive.  When I examined it in person, I found not only that the so called "raised" marks were actually flat, but there was no evidence of adhesive.
Sheesh! How many times do I have to say that? 

I'll jump out of the box and suggest the German words can be interpreted to mean: "In commemoration of the Holy Mission". This then is a commemorative medallion or medal. The cross then can signify a Mission Cross--one meaning of which is a cross erected in churches where the mission is preached; the mission being the sharing of one's faith with another person or group.

The 'all-seeing-eye', sometimes called the Eye of Providence was an explicit image of the Christian Trinity. Freemasons 'adopted' the Eye in 1797. Many people believe the Eye sybolizes God in that He sees everything.
Don........

Thanks Don,

I tend to agree with you about it being some sort of commemorative medal.  Question is, what religion?  The flowery font was used by the Rosicrucians and it may be something from one of their missions.  They adopted the all seeing eye as well, but I'm not sure at what time period.
I will keep you posted on what I hear back from the French order.
Glad to see that someone is finally paying attention to the symbology of it! 

The three objects below the cross represent the three nails/spikes used to crucify Christ.

[what religion]

Thanks Don,

I tend to agree with you about it being some sort of commemorative medal.  Question is, what religion?  The flowery font was used by the Rosicrucians and it may be something from one of their missions.  They adopted the all seeing eye as well, but I'm not sure at what time period.
I will keep you posted on what I hear back from the French order.
Glad to see that someone is finally paying attention to the symbology of it! 

Clearly Christian... IMHO, based on the "IHS" and the Jesuit's symbol (the three spikes)on the bottom.  The Masons, i believe, claim no specific religion and I think the maker of this piece borrowed the symbolism for aesthetic reasons.

I also think the "font" is a common (fleur de lis?) style while the majority of the coin uses a times-new-roman style.    

The Trinity is symbolized by the three lines that encompass the Eye.
The rays do not depict the sun's rays; rather, they are rays of Glory (Heaven and the attributes and perfection of God), for example. Had the rays eminated from the cross (versus from behind the eye) there might be only 12 rays, symbolizing the 12 apostles.

MISSION is spelled in english...as the rest is spelled in German.

A common Rosicrucian ploy - no doubt.

Gents:
I believe you'll find that "mission" in English is also "mission" in German--except in the German 'old' style when it appears as 'miffion'

Gents:
I believe you'll find that "mission" in English is also "mission" in German--except in the German 'old' style when it appears as 'miffion'

Indeed you are correct about that Don.  Mission in English is spelled the same in German. 

I believe auftrag also means 'order'. What's the point?

[what religion]

Thanks Don,

I tend to agree with you about it being some sort of commemorative medal.  Question is, what religion?  The flowery font was used by the Rosicrucians and it may be something from one of their missions.  They adopted the all seeing eye as well, but I'm not sure at what time period.
I will keep you posted on what I hear back from the French order.
Glad to see that someone is finally paying attention to the symbology of it! 

Clearly Christian... IMHO, based on the "IHS" and the Jesuit's symbol (the three spikes)on the bottom.  The Masons, i believe, claim no specific religion and I think the maker of this piece borrowed the symbolism for aesthetic reasons.

I also think the "font" is a common (fleur de lis?) style while the majority of the coin uses a times-new-roman style.    

The fleur de lis is commonly used by the Rosicrucians, which is why it makes me think that's what it may be.
Yet, the 3 nails (spikes) are Jesuit.  Somehow, I really don't think it is related to the Masons.
I'm not sure where the German language comes into play in this piece.
Interesting....

Vas:
Somewhere near the beginning of this thread, I also mentioned that the letter "O" after Mission may represent either the engraver's initial or the mint mark (city). I don't see where that 'symbol' has yet been determined.

Vas:
Somewhere near the beginning of this thread, I also mentioned that the letter "O" after Mission may represent either the engraver's initial or the mint mark (city). I don't see where that 'symbol' has yet been determined.

It looked like just a dot to me, (kind of like the end of a sentence?)
Another interesting thing to look at for sure, and you might be right about it being the engraver's initials.
Since the "coin" has no monetary distribution value, I'm thinking it may not be a mint mark.  Would the mint make commemorative coins?

I believe auftrag also means 'order'. What's the point?

"Order" -- that's interesting.  This is why I think it may have something to do with one of those secret societies or "orders."

I think mojjax sword handle suggestion could be close. Could also be a handle inlaid on a cane like on this link:

http://www.cannes-fayet.com/sword_cane_carbon.html

Mission grapes are a variety of Vitis vinifera introduced from Spain to the western coasts of North and South America in the 1500s by Catholic missionaries for use in making sacramental wine, table and fortified wine. The original European strain, until recently, had been lost, thus the grapes' being named "Mission grapes" since the Catholic missions are where they were generally grown. The grape was introduced to California in the eighteenth century by Franciscan missionaries. Until about 1850, Mission grapes, or Criolla, represented the entirety of viticulture in California; at the present time, however, Mission represents less than 1000 acres (4 km²) of total plantings in the entire state. Most of the state's remaining plantings are in the Gold Country, the Central Valley, and Southern California.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_%28grape%29

I'll drink to that! 
But I still don't think it came from a wine case 

I think mojjax sword handle suggestion could be close. Could also be a handle inlaid on a cane like on this link:

http://www.cannes-fayet.com/sword_cane_carbon.html

Yes, IronSpike and Mojjax, you might be on to something there.  If it was made for something like that and never used that would explain the pattern on the back and the lack of adhesive residue.
Now were cooking! 

Clear pictures rarely "lie",
 

Johnnyi,

When I first saw the pictures last year, I also thought it was adhesive.  When I examined it in person, I found not only that the so called "raised" marks were actually flat, but there was no evidence of adhesive.
Sheesh! How many times do I have to say that? 

Tin Plague constitutes an infectious alteration of the crystalline, but not the chemical, structure of tin, associated with a reduction in density. At temperatures below 13° C (56° F), tin's crystalline structure changes from tetragonal (beta-tin) to cubic (alpha-tin), thus pure metallic tin gradually turns into a non-metallic white powder. The rate of change reaches a maximum around -30° C (-22° F).

Tin Plague appears to spread like a disease. In this phenomenon gray spots are formed on tin medal, medallions or tin objects, which expand, proliferate, and then crumble, forming holes. Eventually the entire coin or tin object disintegrates. This phenomenon is also called a "tin disease" or "tin pest."

You might want to contact some of the posters from this thread.  Some of them are experts in the interpretation of symbols.

http://Nice Bell Found at Shipwreck Site...with pictures.

For what it is worth, I think your item could be a medallion off a Holy water font or wall plaque.  These were/are common in Catholic homes.



The German phrase embossed on your item is found in numerous early 20th c Catholic printed materials.




I'd also like to say that the posters in this forum may not be experts in a given field, but it is my experience that many of them have very good instincts about the items posted here.  Don't discount their opinions to hastily.

DCMatt

Matt, you might be right, but you'd think the church would use something a little better than cheap metal for a water font? I think SWR is on to something with the wine idea, but not on a case; more likely the common inset we sometimes see on the bottle itself, such as a bottle of benedictine. http://www.drinkhacker.com/category/liqueurs/page/2/
http://sg.88dbmedia1.jobsdb.com/sg_...305-B568-4273-BF25-4F44BC2507D8.jpg

Vas:
Yes, some commemorative medals do have mint marks--and/or engraver's initials; they are not unique to coins.

I think what you have is an attractive (more modern) commemorative medal that has incorporated the symbolizm of many Christian (and other) organization, sects, orders, etc..

The flowery design could be adopted by any of these groups or incorporated by the engraver simply for aesthetic purposes--as noted above by Montana Jim.

Some Missions had periodic reunions to commemorate the first; I believe your medal/medallion is such a memento. In essence, I believe your medal is much more generic than proposed elsewhere in this thread. (Source: my 'two cents')
Don..

Are my eyes failing me, or is that a simple period after mission and not an "o"? I see the exact same dot in the interior letters and in the bottom of the cross. Where is this  "mint mark"?

Are my eyes failing me, or is that a simple period after mission and not an "o"? I see the exact same dot in the interior letters and in the bottom of the cross. Where is this  "mint mark"?

That's what i'm asking too. Looks like a plain ole dot to me.

Wow, this post has gotten out of hand. I'm not sure what the big mystery is. This is obviously some sort of Masonic medallion, likely from the late 19th or early 20th centuries. The symbolism is clearly Masonic with the eye of Providence (God) at the top (it's also on the dollar bill). The swords are a classic Masonic symbol. The cross and reference to Jesus are also obvious Masonic references.

What's the diameter?

Swords?? I must have missed them; I only see 3 nails/spikes.

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Maybe it was in a backing of some kind and used as a necklace.  Does look like it was pryed out of something. 

Maybe it was in a backing of some kind and used as a necklace.  Does look like it was pryed out of something. 

Although Johnnyi expert would argue, no, it has not been pried out of anything. When you look at it in person, there is no evidence that it was ever attached to something.  It may have well been intended to be attached to something, but no evidence of it on the piece itself.

It is about the same size as a Canadian toonie.

If this item is about the same size as a loonie(28 mm), weighs 8 grams, and tin is about 6.5g/cc average then it should be about 2.8mm in thickness.   A walking liberty half which is a little bigger in diameter is 1.8 mm in thickness for reference.  Could you post a picture from the side please?  And a closeup of the upper portion that appears dented?  Thanks

Scratcher, I doubt if he was talking about thickness when he mentioned size, but who knows.  At least we do finally know this thing is barely over an inch in diameter, so we can probably rule out holy water fonts, inserts to fraternal sashes, etc., which would certainly be larger. Brandy bottles, wine bottles, benedictine bottles, all seem to be even more fertile ground now.

Scratcher, I doubt if he was talking about thickness when he mentioned size, but who knows.  At least we do finally know this thing is barely over an inch in diameter, so we can probably rule out holy water fonts, inserts to fraternal sashes, etc., which would certainly be larger. Brandy bottles, wine bottles, benedictine bottles, all seem to be even more fertile ground now.

I had no idea it was so small.  I retract all my previous posts.

Maybe if we had ALL the information currently known about this object, we might have a chance to ID it.

Frankly, I don't think the owner wants an ID because it will turn out to be some mundane, early 20th c item and he'll have to take down his hokey web site.  I'm tired of feeding this dog.

DCMatt

I wanted to clarify a couple things.  First I meant 'toonie' Not 'loonie'.    Second, I meant that if you calculate the thickness using the known variables with volume and density formulas the item should be about 2.8 mm thick.  That would be alot thicker than some would guess. Especially with the apparent little dent.

This pice is approximately 28mm in circumference.  I don't know how thick, as I don't have it with me.

Canadian two dollar coin, commonly called Toonie (and similar spellings):
Mass 7.3 g
Diameter 28 mm
Thickness 1.8 mm

Canadian two dollar coin, commonly called Toonie (and similar spellings):
Mass 7.3 g
Diameter 28 mm
Thickness 1.8 mm

I think he meant diameter......
This is what I am trying to get across.  Tin is way less dense than coin metal.  It would have to be about 2.8mm thick if the supplied info from earlier in the thread is correct, or about 56% thicker than a walking liberty half.

Scratcher, I think he said that he doesn't know how thick it is. When he responded to size he was apparently talking about only the diameter. Too bad though that it took so long to get this information.

Scratcher, I think he said that he doesn't know how thick it is. When he responded to size he was apparently talking about only the diameter. Too bad though that it took so long to get this information.

Yup, until now, nobody thought to ask. 

Scratcher, I think he said that he doesn't know how thick it is. When he responded to size he was apparently talking about only the diameter. Too bad though that it took so long to get this information.

Yup, until now, nobody thought to ask.  

Vastic

this is why I asked for the weight on page one, it seemed to me that your item looked as though it could be Silver and now the diameter of 28mm, it sounds very heavy for Tin

I believe what you are saying but is there any chance that it isn't Tin 28mm sounds a good size for a Coin or Token

SS

Scratcher, I think he said that he doesn't know how thick it is. When he responded to size he was apparently talking about only the diameter. Too bad though that it took so long to get this information.

I realize this johnnyi.  I'm telling you how thick it would have to be if the information supplied by vastic is correct.   If it is 28mm diameter, weighs 8 grams as stated earlier, is made from tin, then it has to be approx.  2.8mm  thick.  I'll bore you with the math if you want........

"I realize this johnnyi.  I'm telling you how thick it would have to be if the information supplied by vastic is correct.   If it is 28mm diameter, weighs 8grams as stated earlier, then it has to be approx.  2.8mm.  I'll bore you with the math if you want........"

I'm sorry scratcher, I didn't realize until ss mentioned it that vastik had already given the weight. Yes, you're right, if what we are told is correct.

Okay everyone, these stats are copied and pasted off the actual metallurgy reports. 

Let me know your thoughts. 


Area 1 Face of coin
Spectrum processing :
No peaks omitted

Processing option : All elements analyzed (Normalised)
Number of iterations = 1

Standard :
Cu    Cu   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM
In    InAs   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM
Sn    Sn   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM

Element   Weight%   Atomic%   
              
Cu K   2.02   3.71   
In L   1.17   1.19   
Sn L   96.81   95.10   
         
Totals   100.00      

Area 2 Face:
Element   Weight%   Atomic%   
              
Cu K   2.08   3.81   
In L   1.42   1.44   
Sn L   96.50   94.74   
         
Totals   100.00      

Area 3 Face:
Spectrum processing :
No peaks omitted

Processing option : All elements analyzed (Normalised)
Number of iterations = 2

Standard :
Si    SiO2   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM
P    GaP   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM
S    FeS2   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM
Cl    NaCl   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM
Ca    Wollastonite   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM
Cu    Cu   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM
In    InAs   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM
Sn    Sn   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM

Element   Weight%   Atomic%   
              
Si K   0.97   2.27   
P K   0.83   1.76   
S K   9.09   18.64   
Cl K   1.84   3.42   
Ca K   2.14   3.51   
Cu K   48.28   49.92   
In L   4.78   2.74   
Sn L   32.06   17.75   
         
Totals   100.00      

Area on Back:
Spectrum processing :
No peaks omitted

Processing option : All elements analyzed (Normalised)
Number of iterations = 1

Standard :
Cu    Cu   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM
Sn    Sn   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM

Element   Weight%   Atomic%   
              
Cu K   1.82   3.34   
Sn L   98.18   96.66   
         
Totals   100.00      

Area on Back that is scratched:
Spectrum processing :
No peaks omitted

Processing option : All elements analyzed (Normalised)
Number of iterations = 1

Standard :
Cu    Cu   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM
Sn    Sn   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM

Element   Weight%   Atomic%   
              
Cu K   0.58   1.07   
Sn L   99.42   98.93   
         
Totals   100.00      

Area of residue on back:
Spectrum processing :
No peaks omitted

Processing option : All elements analyzed (Normalised)
Number of iterations = 3

Standard :
C    CaCO3   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM
O    CaCO3   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM
Na    Jadeite   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM
S    FeS2   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM
Ca    Wollastonite   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM
Cu    Cu   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM

Element   Weight%   Atomic%   
              
C K   63.10   75.73   
O K   19.65   17.70   
Na K   2.49   1.56   
S K   2.31   1.04   
Ca K   8.61   3.10   
Cu K   3.84   0.87   
         
Totals   100.00      

Thank you SWR. You beat me to it. "Area of residue on back"   

Thank you SWR. You beat me to it. "Area of residue on back"  

So residue is Adhesive/glue/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residue can't see that here

SS

I really don't know what the June 1999 date is, but the owner of the coin had these reports done this past summer.  He has only had the coin for less than 2 years.

Has anyone actually looked up the symbols on the report to identify what the residue is?   
SWR and Johhnyi, I'm counting on you two for this. 

"It was more than likely glued/cemented/epoxied to a porcelain/ceramic holder of some nature, and pried out"

Yes SWR, although the information had to be "pried out", we have eventually learned that the university did specifically see residue on the back. As you stated,  Jadeite  is  a substance used in porcelain and ceramics and is one of the different components of the residue.  The guess of this being pried off of a more expensive liquer bottle become that much more probable now, but perhaps we should also consider jams and jellies in our search? 

I'm thinking that it came off of a jar of jam that was stolen from the Masons by the Illuminati, who gave it to the Rosicrucians, but it was eaten by a Jesuit priest, who had infiltrated the Rosicrucian order to find out the secret ingredient of their jam recipe!

I'm thinking that it came off of a jar of jam that was stolen from the Masons by the Illuminati, who gave it to the Rosicrucians, but it was eaten by a Jesuit priest, who had infiltrated the Rosicrucian order to find out the secret ingredient of their jam recipe!

Don't forget the wine

SS

I'm thinking that it came off of a jar of jam that was stolen from the Masons by the Illuminati, who gave it to the Rosicrucians, but it was eaten by a Jesuit priest, who had infiltrated the Rosicrucian order to find out the secret ingredient of their jam recipe!

Don't forget the wine

SS

Oh ya!  I forgot! The Jesuit priest drank the wine after he ate the jam.   

Ha ha! Yes vastik, you have silver searcher convinced this is real. We all know that. If you want us to help you, part of that is acknowledgng that there is  residue, and explaining what use it might have had.  

You made a statement vastik, "I've been looking this piece over and there is definitely no glue residue on it." You continued making the same statement over and over.                                                                            
Now we suddenly learn that the very University which you proclaimed  was the last word, has told us about the "Area of residue on back" which they clearly saw, an area which you denied even existed, despite being privy to the report days ago!

I don't expect you to explain that, as your modus operandi so far has been to weave and bob, laugh gayly, be slow in revealing information unless pressed for it (such as the size) , and of course accuse the entire forum on occasion of "not having lives" when they do make attempts to research your object with results that don't match your theories.

If I stumble upon the item your little relic belonged to I will be sure to post it for you, as I'm sure other members who've already been wise enough to leave would do also, whether it be the Sword of Damacles or the insert to a jar of Trapest preserves.  


 

It could also be a beer stein medallion.

OOOOh, me bad  

Sorry Johhnyi, I have to laugh.  Don't forget that the elements mentioned are also used to make molds.  The "residue" could be from a mold.  In person it looks flat, like an original part of the coin.  If the "coin" was produced in a mold, then the "residue" would likely be melted onto it.
And the whole jam idea, well, it deserves a laugh.

Calcium carbonate (CaCO3, as mentioned in the report) is an ingredient in cement. It's also used in a wide range of trade and adhesives, sealants, and decorating fillers. Perhaps this has already been mentioned.

"Don't forget that the elements mentioned are also used to make molds.  The "residue" could be from a mold."

Not sure who told you this vastik (the person  who told you this was 16th century maybe?) but  it highly unlikely this came out of a mold that used jaidite in its formula, and far far more likely, or considering how modern this item is (a fact already proved to you) , it is almost certain  that if a mold, it was made of a metal, perhaps brass or even steel.  there would be no "area of residue" from such a mold.

OOOOh, me bad  

Sorry Johhnyi, I have to laugh.  Don't forget that the elements mentioned are also used to make molds.  The "residue" could be from a mold.  In person it looks flat, like an original part of the coin.  If the "coin" was produced in a mold, then the "residue" would likely be melted onto it.
And the whole jam idea, well, it deserves a laugh.

In a Mold now you say? as in a cast coin? so you now think this item was cast in the 16th century? of tin? i think i am going to go eat some jam now!

Chuck.

Don't forget to look under the lid Chuckles, there might be another token to be found 

I havent caught up yet vastik, as I have been out of town but are you purposely avoiding posting that side view I requested? We can only work with what you give us.

I apologize for those that are laughing and joking. You seem like a nice person, vastik, but you are bringing this on yourself with your evasive and sometimes uneducated responses. You will look at the top of this page and see many authentic treasure pics. Why would everyone decide that yours is not worthy? Do you think its a conspiracy against you?

BTW Thanks for posting the size. Its nice to know. And yes I did ask. With nothing in the pic for size comparison, I hadnt realized it was this small.  28mm=1.1 inches.  

The weight stated does not seem to match the picture. Because pics can be deceiving, I would greatly appreciate that side view. I watched the video and didnt see it. I dont understand why the owner would not find this important to take pictures from all angles.

Okay everyone, these stats are copied and pasted off the actual metallurgy reports.  

Let me know your thoughts.  


Area 1 Face of coin
Spectrum processing :
No peaks omitted

Processing option : All elements analyzed (Normalised)
Number of iterations = 1

Standard :
Cu    Cu   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM
In    InAs   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM
Sn    Sn   1-Jun-1999 12:00 AM

   

Thanks. The more information you can give us, the better chance of the proper ID. I dont know if its been talked about, but is this Tin, Copper, and Indium?     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indium

I see where you are going BCH.  Indium wasn't used much until after WWII.   Out of curiosity vastic, how did you come up with the 'coin' weighing 8grams?  Thanks in advance.

I see where you are going BCH.  Indium wasn't used much until after WWII.   Out of curiosity vastic, how did you come up with the 'coin' weighing 8grams?  Thanks in advance.

I have been told by a friend that it may be from WWII era, so that makes sense Scratcher.  This friend tends to think it's related to the Nazi's because of the symbolism.  The owner of the coin told me it weighed approximately 8 grams.  When he first got the coin we thought it was silver by the weight.

Yet another friend, who is a 35-year veteran Mason, thought it might be related to the Templars and perhaps it came off of a Templar sword, or something similar.  He is sending the photos to the Grand Poobah of the Canadian Masons.

BCH:
I have asked the owner to take pictures of the side view, and he said he would.  I don't know when he will get a chance to, but when I get them I will post them.

While I admit that I am having quite a laugh with the jokers on this forum (I know, I'm bad  ), I really would like to find another similar item so I can identify it's possible origins.

Thanks for your help.

Ha ha! Yes vastik, you have silver searcher convinced this is real. We all know that. If you want us to help you, part of that is acknowledgng that there is  residue, and explaining what use it might have had.  

You made a statement vastik, "I've been looking this piece over and there is definitely no glue residue on it." You continued making the same statement over and over.                                                                            
Now we suddenly learn that the very University which you proclaimed  was the last word, has told us about the "Area of residue on back" which they clearly saw, an area which you denied even existed, despite being privy to the report days ago!

I don't expect you to explain that, as your modus operandi so far has been to weave and bob, laugh gayly, be slow in revealing information unless pressed for it (such as the size) , and of course accuse the entire forum on occasion of "not having lives" when they do make attempts to research your object with results that don't match your theories.

If I stumble upon the item your little relic belonged to I will be sure to post it for you, as I'm sure other members who've already been wise enough to leave would do also, whether it be the Sword of Damacles or the insert to a jar of Trapest preserves.  


 

Johnnyi...you know nothing, since when have I said this was real I leave the pre- judging to Sherlock Holmes types like you who can dejuice things from mearly looking at pictures.

You are quite within your rights to come to your conclusions...but don't come to mine.

By the way Your Dagger Handle was correctly ID by myself and PBK...hard for you to except I know, because somebody from the UK got it right just Green Check it like it should have been weeks ago

One more thing.. Silver Searcher, with capitals if you please I think I get your user name corect

SS

I see where you are going BCH.  Indium wasn't used much until after WWII.   Out of curiosity vastic, how did you come up with the 'coin' weighing 8grams?  Thanks in advance.

I have been told by a friend that it may be from WWII era, so that makes sense Scratcher.  This friend tends to think it's related to the Nazi's because of the symbolism.  The owner of the coin told me it weighed approximately 8 grams.  When he first got the coin we thought it was silver by the weight.

Yet another friend, who is a 35-year veteran Mason, thought it might be related to the Templars and perhaps it came off of a Templar sword, or something similar.  He is sending the photos to the Grand Poobah of the Canadian Masons.

BCH:
I have asked the owner to take pictures of the side view, and he said he would.  I don't know when he will get a chance to, but when I get them I will post them.

While I admit that I am having quite a laugh with the jokers on this forum (I know, I'm bad  ), I really would like to find another similar item so I can identify it's possible origins.

Thanks for your help.

Do you remember it being quite thick, much thicker than an average coin of this size?  Info like this will help lead us in the right direction.   If it was truly as thick as what I calculated then it probably wasn't on a bottle.

Ya!  You said it Silver Searcher!  And for that matter Johnnyi and the rest of the doubting crew....when have I said that this item was real?  I, too, am merely stating my observations.  
I saw the coin, I touched it, I stated my opinion.  I have tried to provide as many facts about it as I could get my hands on so that we can all have some fun with this.  As a matter of fact, even the website doesn't say that it's real.  It is all just a mystery that we are all trying to solve.  The website went up in hopes that someone who knows the truth will see it and be able to identify it.  

At this point in time folks, the identity of this piece is still not known.

I am no expert on coins, nor even a novice in this stuff, so yes, my observations may come across as uneducated in this field at times.  I am a medical person, that is my area of expertise.

If you have proven credentials as an expert in this field, then I would take your conclusions more seriously.  But unless this is the case, don't expect me to believe that this item was stuck to a jar of jam or a wine bottle. I do not believe the symbology on the coin is relative to that of a monastery that makes wines and preserves.

Scratcher:  I don't remember exactly how thick it is.  I have asked the owner for side view photos, but later on today, I will ask him to try the measure the thickness.

I'll keep you posted.

Thanks for your help everyone.

I think johnnyi was just steering in direction of wine bottle/jam jar based observation this appear to be a one sided object and not a coin/token.

Here's another idea: Medallion for a book 

 http://shop.ce-bookcovers.com/index.cgi?code=3&cat=2

By the way Your Dagger Handle was correctly ID by myself and PBK...hard for you to except I know, because somebody from the UK got it right just Green Check it like it should have been weeks ago

SS, with all due respect, I cant recall you ever making a correct ID here at TN but I recall many by johhnny.  Can you post this dagger handle? I must have missed it. 

I agree pictures can be deceiving but its not possible to hold it in our hands. Good clear pictures from different angles will have to suffice.

I think johnnyi was just steering in direction of wine bottle/jam jar based observation this appear to be a one sided object and not a coin/token.

Here's another idea: Medallion for a book  

 http://shop.ce-bookcovers.com/index.cgi?code=3&cat=2

Yes I posted the book, wine bottle and gift box ideas a while back (reply # 93).. I agree its most likely related to one of the three, ...or to grapes. Im waiting for the thickness and proper weight. Im leaning toward the Mission Grapes idea that someone posted.

I think johnnyi was just steering in direction of wine bottle/jam jar based observation this appear to be a one sided object and not a coin/token.

Here's another idea: Medallion for a book 

 http://shop.ce-bookcovers.com/index.cgi?code=3&cat=2

IronSpike,

That is a very interesting looking book and medallion on it.  Do you know what it represents? Where did you find the photo?

Thanks for posting.

By the way Your Dagger Handle was correctly ID by myself and PBK...hard for you to except I know, because somebody from the UK got it right just Green Check it like it should have been weeks ago

SS, with all due respect, I cant recall you ever making a correct ID here at TN but I recall many by johhnny.  Can you post this dagger handle? I must have missed it.

Then you are very narrow minded, and obviously Blind and your comment uncalled for.

SS

By the way Your Dagger Handle was correctly ID by myself and PBK...hard for you to except I know, because somebody from the UK got it right just Green Check it like it should have been weeks ago

SS, with all due respect, I cant recall you ever making a correct ID here at TN but I recall many by johhnny.  Can you post this dagger handle? I must have missed it.

Then you are very narrow minded, and obviously Blind and your comment uncalled for.

SS

It was probably uncalled for but I cant delete it now. Opposing views are always welcome. I was hoping you would show me the dagger link because I honestly missed it.

I just want you to realize that johhnyi has a good track record here of great IDs, in the short time he has been here, and that needs to be taken into consideration. Vastik may not know this.

SS,
Yes, it seems that there are many uncalled for comments on this thread.  It's unfortunate.

It seems that Johnnyi, Crusader, and SWR have some kind of bone to pick with us two in particular.  Why? Who knows?

We should all try to be more respectful of one another.  Unfortunately, when I am shown disrespect, I tend to throw it right back.  

But for the love of Pete people....can't we all just get along?  

By the way Your Dagger Handle was correctly ID by myself and PBK...hard for you to except I know, because somebody from the UK got it right just Green Check it like it should have been weeks ago

SS, with all due respect, I cant recall you ever making a correct ID here at TN but I recall many by johhnny.  Can you post this dagger handle? I must have missed it.

Then you are very narrow minded, and obviously Blind and your comment uncalled for.

SS

It was probably uncalled for but I cant delete it now. Opposing views are always welcome. I was hoping you would show me the dagger link because I honestly missed it.

I just want you to realize that johhnyi has a good track record here of great IDs, in the short time he has been here, and that needs to be taken into consideration.

Don't worry BCY, I won't be bothering trying to help in this thread anymore. Obviously the hours I spend, and links posted are a waste of time and effort, when you just get comments like that.

I guess I will have to search for the dagger ID. Im sorry I missed it. Your time and effort is appreciated SS but it seems to me that you criticize a lot about trying to ID from a picture. We cant change that because this is an online identification forum. Maybe we should just quit IDing here all together because we cant hold the unknown objects in our hands.

Now wait a minute SS, you are helping ME...not the ones who don't appreciate your observations.  I have never said anything but good about you.  

I am new to this post and I do not know anybody's track record.  I'm just looking for people who are as curious as I am about this object.

Now wait a minute SS, you are helping ME...not the ones who don't appreciate your observations.  I have never said anything but good about you.  

I am new to this post and I do not know anybody's track record.  I'm just looking for people who are as curious as I am about this object.

Maybe you could hire him.

"I think johnnyi was just steering in direction of wine bottle/jam jar based observation this appear to be a one sided object and not a coin/token."

Thanks Spike, and yes, that was my intention, and as well, that it was adhered to something. "A jar of Trapest preserves" was an attempt at humor which obviously doesn't translate well over the internet. Sorry about that. I'll refrain from attempts at humor in the future:D

I apologise to you Silver Surfer for suggesting you believed vastiks' observations and conclusions were sound. I based that assumption on your constant defense of his improbable conclusions (including coin/token), coupled with your "I believe you" posts directed towards him. I'm glad I was wrong.

The little bit I can add to the discussion is that my wife is in Munich now. I emailed her the post last night; and this morning's reply has been that so far the few Germans she's spoken to (oldest being 84 yrs.) have all said this has nothing to do with Templars or secret societies,  but is an object "of the assigned catholic priest who's responsibility it was to re-energize his assigned communities/churches to be better believer.  
The "ihs" is in Latin which means Jesus savior of men."  They've all seen such objects on souveneers handed out to the congregation. (she neglected to mention what kind of souveneers, but I will ask in the next email)

We still haven't i.d.'d it exactly, but aside from the above which we can take or leave, we've proved it is not older than at least 1924; it is modern German language; and it was most certainly adhered to something else. It will be interesting to see if the original "production" concerning the object is edited to reflect these changes of fact.    






 

Now wait a minute SS, you are helping ME...not the ones who don't appreciate your observations.  I have never said anything but good about you.  

I am new to this post and I do not know anybody's track record.  I'm just looking for people who are as curious as I am about this object.

Maybe you could hire him.

Don't be silly BCH, nobody involved with this is "hired" for anything.
Shees! 

I am new to this post and I do not know anybody's track record.

Thats why Im telling you. The hiring part was a bad joke.

I am new to this post and I do not know anybody's track record.

Thats why Im telling you. The hiring part was a bad joke.

That's strike three, fair enough game on.

I would say that if you have Johnnyi, Crusader, and SWR UNITED and questioning something, you had better listen

SS,
Yes, it seems that there are many uncalled for comments on this thread.  It's unfortunate.

It seems that Johnnyi, Crusader, and SWR have some kind of bone to pick with us two in particular.  Why? Who knows?

We should all try to be more respectful of one another.  Unfortunately, when I am shown disrespect, I tend to throw it right back.  

But for the love of Pete people....can't we all just get along?  

"I think johnnyi was just steering in direction of wine bottle/jam jar based observation this appear to be a one sided object and not a coin/token."

Thanks Spike, and yes, that was my intention, and as well, that it was adhered to something. "A jar of Trapest preserves" was an attempt at humor which obviously doesn't translate well over the internet. Sorry about that. I'll refrain from attempts at humor in the future:D

I apologise to you Silver Surfer for suggesting you believed vastiks' observations and conclusions were sound. I based that assumption on your constant defense of his improbable conclusions (including coin/token), coupled with your "I believe you" posts directed towards him. I'm glad I was wrong.

The little bit I can add to the discussion is that my wife is in Munich now. I emailed her the post last night; and this morning's reply has been that so far the few Germans she's spoken to (oldest being 84 yrs.) have all said this has nothing to do with Templars or secret societies,  but is an object "of the assigned catholic priest who's responsibility it was to re-energize his assigned communities/churches to be better believer.  
The "ihs" is in Latin which means Jesus savior of men."  They've all seen such objects on souveneers handed out to the congregation. (she neglected to mention what kind of souveneers, but I will ask in the next email)

We still haven't i.d.'d it exactly, but aside from the above which we can take or leave, we've proved it is not older than at least 1924; it is modern German language; and it was most certainly adhered to something else. It will be interesting to see if the original "production" concerning the object is edited to reflect these changes of fact.    






 

Hey Johhnyi,
That's interesting!  I'm glad to hear that your wife has been investigating in that part of the world.
The curiosity here is that I've never known the RC Church to use the all seeing eye.  I could be wrong, but I always thought they condemmed the use of Gnostisism, and it's symbolism.
Has she shown the photo around to her German pals?

"I guess I will have to search for the dagger ID. Im sorry I missed it."

Bigcy, I wasn't going to respond to the dagger post because I didn't want to weigh this post down unecessarily with unrelated stuff. It's a hilt I found in a river many years ago. Several i.d.'s have come very close, but provenance regarding two possibilities (two different time periods) has been determined by government markings on these hilts which my object does not have. An object very similar was brought up with out markings, but it has proved to have been manufactured after my object was found. That's it in a nutshell.

"I think johnnyi was just steering in direction of wine bottle/jam jar based observation this appear to be a one sided object and not a coin/token."

Thanks Spike, and yes, that was my intention, and as well, that it was adhered to something. "A jar of Trapest preserves" was an attempt at humor which obviously doesn't translate well over the internet. Sorry about that. I'll refrain from attempts at humor in the future:D

I apologise to you Silver Surfer for suggesting you believed vastiks' observations and conclusions were sound. I based that assumption on your constant defense of his improbable conclusions (including coin/token), coupled with your "I believe you" posts directed towards him. I'm glad I was wrong.

The little bit I can add to the discussion is that my wife is in Munich now. I emailed her the post last night; and this morning's reply has been that so far the few Germans she's spoken to (oldest being 84 yrs.) have all said this has nothing to do with Templars or secret societies,  but is an object "of the assigned catholic priest who's responsibility it was to re-energize his assigned communities/churches to be better believer.  
The "ihs" is in Latin which means Jesus savior of men."  They've all seen such objects on souveneers handed out to the congregation. (she neglected to mention what kind of souveneers, but I will ask in the next email)

We still haven't i.d.'d it exactly, but aside from the above which we can take or leave, we've proved it is not older than at least 1924; it is modern German language; and it was most certainly adhered to something else. It will be interesting to see if the original "production" concerning the object is edited to reflect these changes of fact.    






 

Who's Silver Surfer...I haven't seen a post from him on here

Silver Searcher.

I am new to this post and I do not know anybody's track record.

Thats why Im telling you. The hiring part was a bad joke.

That's strike three, fair enough game on.

That sounds like a threat. All I asked of from you was the correct dagger ID that you made because I honestly missed it. If you made a great ID, then I am so glad for you SS and I will be the first to congratulate you. Like I said, I missed it. I know you are a great metal detectorist because I have seen your finds in the banner, but if you are making great IDs, it would be simple enough just to post the IDs you made and prove me wrong.

I am new to this post and I do not know anybody's track record.

Thats why Im telling you. The hiring part was a bad joke.

That's strike three, fair enough game on.

That sounds like a threat. All I asked of from you was the correct dagger ID that you made because I missed it. If you made a great ID, then I am so glad for you SS and I will be the first to congratulate you. Like I said, I missed it. I know you are a great metal detectorist because I have seen your finds in the banner, but if you are making great IDs, it would be simple enough just to post the IDs you made and prove me wrong.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,275654.0.html for one.

"Has she shown the photo around to her German pals"

Yes vastik, it is the photo that she is showing around.  

 http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,275654.0.html for one.

OK great, you are proving me wrong. Congrats. I missed it.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,271103.0.html need I go on, I also was thanked personely by Timekiller for helping with the Great Token he found...and I made no threat.

SS

 http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,275654.0.html for one.

OK great, you are proving me wrong. Congrats. I missed it.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,271103.0.html need I go on, I also was thanked personely by Timekiller for helping with the Great Token he found...and I made no threat.

SS

OK great SS Im glad you have found a niche here in the buckles perhaps and are making some IDs that I missed. Congrats. I am happy for you.

 http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,275654.0.html for one.

OK great, you are proving me wrong. Congrats. I missed it.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,271103.0.html need I go on, I also was thanked personely by Timekiller for helping with the Great Token he found...and I made no threat.

SS

OK great SS Im glad you have found a niche here and are making some IDs that I missed. Congrats.

Just to correct you one more time...it's fair to say that Johnnyi would ID more, as the majority of posts are American finds, I have only taken an interest in this thread for the last few months or so. But now I will vacate it and leave to the much wiser, like yourself.

Just to correct you one more time...it's fair to say that Johnnyi would ID more, as the majority of posts are American finds, I have only taken an interest in this thread for the last few months or so. But now I will vacate it and leave to the much wiser, like yourself.

Im sure thats the reason johnny makes the IDs. Thank you SS for the kind comment to me. But its not necessary to leave on my account as I will be out of town again. Besides vastik likes your line of thinking.

I have to go. Im only cluttering up this thread and for that I apologize to vastik.

For what its worth, I know what you mean about American finds. I cannot ID most of the European finds and I stay out of them.

"I could be wrong, but I always thought they condemmed the use of Gnostisism, and it's symbolism.'

Vastik, I don't know yet whether you are wrong or right (or for that matter, whether the people in Germany who were asked so far about this, paid close attention to that element of the design) Thus my comment earlier, "you can take or leave".

I don't know what defintion you are using for your research, but the "all seeing eye" is referrd to in the Catholic Church as "The eye of God", and as these symbols mean different things to different groups, and "eye of God" might be a better name with which to google or use the library resources, etc. . I haven't had time to look very far yet, but I believe it appears on a Catholic Church in Poland now; and it prominently on the alter of the Mission of San Miguel in California (Franciscan) which is under restoration.  

One thing I wanted to ask was if anybody is familiar with this Tin, Copper and Indium alloy?  The tests reveal that it is not 100% Tin and it may be a more modern alloy than pewter.  

"One thing I wanted to ask was if anybody is familiar with this Tin, Copper and Indium alloy?  The tests reveal that it is not 100% Tin and it may be a more modern alloy than pewter."

Cy, I know you've alredy been researching the alloys, so you know that Indium was also used on shiny metal coatings and also to reduce the melting point of an alloy. As apparently this object was scanned to achieve the results, it seems certain that the indium was used in the alloy itself rather then a coating, as it appears on both the front and the back.  Anyway, you know already, this is not pewter as there is no silver, and it is not "tin", as it is an alloy of tin and copper and Indium. Indium wasn't even around before 1924, so it's certain too that this is modern low melting point easily cast alloy.

I would say that if you have Johnnyi, Crusader, and SWR UNITED and questioning something, you had better listen

SS,
Yes, it seems that there are many uncalled for comments on this thread.  It's unfortunate.

It seems that Johnnyi, Crusader, and SWR have some kind of bone to pick with us two in particular.  Why? Who knows?

We should all try to be more respectful of one another.  Unfortunately, when I am shown disrespect, I tend to throw it right back.  

But for the love of Pete people....can't we all just get along?  

 thanks scratcher, you know where its at.  I'm always here to help & yes I like a joke

Trust me I never pick a bone unless very upset, & rarely then as well.  I have no need to add to this because its already been covered.