found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

while chatting with a local fellow doing a bit of research on a confederate camp site area in my area -- the person spoke of a "missing" union unit --a  white officer commanding a small foot patrol unit of black soldiers ( said to be between 30 to 50 men) -- these men ran into a much larger rebel unit and got "boxed in" refusing to surrender ( the white officer was killed early on in the fight and it seems the black troops feared being hanged if they surrendered as this was wide spread belief --true or not --that this would occur if the black troops were caught by southern troops) so they fought to the death to the last man. -- after the fight for them refusing to surrender and thus forcing additional fighting which caused some additional maiming and killing of some of the southern soldiers (several more than if they had just surrendered when asked to )--  the angry southern soldiers piled their bodies in a heap and burnt them in revenge . --- the man who told me said his grandmother told him of it as a child --and said that she knew because it was upon her great grandpa's land (who was alive at the time * and told her as a kid)  he was there when the event occured in the civil war -I have also found out from the man I spoke to that according to him no union troops ever came in the area to "look" for the "lost  union patrol". so upon that bit of land is the burnt remains of between 30 to 50 men of the "lost patrol"-- I hope to attempt to find their remains ( if I can get land owner ok) and have them properly honored if I can.

later note ****this is freakish -- after completing the above post --I felt "compelled" to go see if this possible "site" had been developed or not --at 1 am in the morning mind you and its a fair bit from home --got in the car drove down there a sort of a remote area -- after seeing the spot -- I could have returned the way I came or take the long way around -- the was a small creek a bit down the other long road way --very possibly were the lost patrol got pinned in at --so I go that way -- as I approach it , it appears somethings in the road --the night fog was coming in but the image of something snaps me to --in the fog is a totally wrecked car with someone in it still --the car is still steaming and leaking gas --it had to have just occurred- I help the driver out ---the driver is muttering I thought I saw something in the road so I swerved -- its clear to see he went off the curve by the bridge --hitting trees with his passenger side which spun his car back on the road -- totally fubar ed-- the 20ish something kids beat up and bleeding but lucky to be alive --all he can do is cry "my car" over and over --silly kid -- hes standing by the car in the road even after I told him it might blow stay away from it -- then a huge dually type pick up comes flying like a bat outta --- down the road right at the no lights on wreck with the kid between the two --I flash my brights up and down several times to alert the oncoming truck --he pays no mind -- only at the last second does he see it and slam on brakes --close call--if I had not alerted him he would have plowed right into it kid wreck and leaking gas and all --boom. -- you know the "lost patrol" bodies  was burnt to a crisp.-- this is freaky indeed. === the dually truck never even stopped just went around us on the berm "rolled on"

Wow awesome lead I hope you find something! Good luck!

Well seems like something was telling you to go out.

Funny how things work out! A simple step one way or the other changes destinies. Maybe that kid would stayed in the car and gotten slammed by the Truck and be dead.

CRAZY STORY!

That is an awesome piece of history that your researching. I hope it pans out to what you think it is, would be a great thing for you to put this much time in and have the place honored with a memorial. 40-50 men killed in one grave is alot of people. Such a shame...

GENE

thanks guys --yep frankly --this was a very weird event * --I'm sure however if I had not been there the dually truck that was flying down the road would have smashed into the wrecked car sitting in tthe road with no lights on * killing the driver of the car who woukd have either still been in the car or beside it --thus between the car and the truck as it approached --with the gas leak once the truck hit it most likely --boom a flaming mass --so good chance the dually driver would have been toast too. --- the really odd thing is the "missing patrol" who's resting place I was looking for bodies were all burnt to bits back then.

Cool story good luck at that spot.

i hope it works out for you...

[John 3:16]

That is an extremely weird event, but it is quite clear to me that you were meant to go there at that exact time.  You're right, it sounds like the kid would otherwise have been killed by the guy in the duallie.

To my mind, I think it was the hand of G-d at work.

Your story is like something out of a movie.  And you were going to check out a site where a bunch of dead Union soldiers were stacked and burned. 

WEIRD.


I am currently working on a metal detecting story of what I thought to be moderate strangeness, but yours has mine beat.   

the "timong" was odd indeed -- a few min earlier --I would have ben past the spot when the kid wrecked ---a few min later * without me bring there to warn him ) the dually would have creamed the wrecked car (who lights were totally out and it was foggy) sitting in the road on the curve . ( leaking gas ) --all that would have been there would be a ball of burning mangled metal of the two vehicles. -- it was meant to be --that I was to be at that exact time at that exact place to save at least one if not two lives , is about the only way I can justify what occured. ( the how it was caused  I do not know  exactly --only what occured --- and who caused it --the lord in action in my veiw.)

Timing is everything. We all have events where we look back and say if I had not or if I had been there then this or that would have happened. I often wonder how many of these events we avoid by taking a right instead of a left or we forget a wallet and run back in the house, thus being on the road a minute later. How many events do we avoid and never even know it?

You never know, it may pan out very well.

That young man's guardian angel was busy that night! I've been in situations that have  lead me to believe there is such a thing as guardian angels.
Either way, you are a hero. You heeded that inner voice. If you hadn't been there at just the right time, several lives could have been lost!
Please keep us posted on what you find, and any other mysterious happenings!
Way to go, HERO! 

Ivan, I believe, you were called upon and you delivered 
It seems to me, a lot of people with dreams of treasure, become intuitive. 

Mike

all I can say was I felt "compelled" --like I "had to" -- the timing of it was mind boggling to me -- needless to say it was very odd indeed -- but then I leave a odd and very non normal but interesting life in general

KARMA!!!!  now your going to find something good. willy

Awesome twist of fate. I really believe that the Lord sent you to that lonely road that night.  Also I see it as a "sign"  your quest is very near to that area, like the exact spot may be under that particular section of blacktop.  I would go back (with permission) and search the immediate area around where the auto was wrecked..........NGE

There has been huge intrest in "colored" troops in the Civil War over the past 10 years, another metal detecting site is currantly collecting donations for one said unit as I write this. Although local lore or rumors are fun to listen too and day-dream about, I think if this were true, information about it would have came out ages ago. Good luck in your search.

glad you and the kid didnt get smashed by the dually !!
that are sounds like it has lots of potential !

while chatting with a local fellow doing a bit of research on a confederate camp site area in my area -- the person spoke of a "missing" union unit --a  white officer commanding a small foot patrol unit of black soldiers ( said to be between 30 to 50 men) -- these men ran into a much larger rebel unit and got "boxed in" refusing to surrender ( the white officer was killed early on in the fight and it seems the black troops feared being hanged if they surrendered as this was wide spread belief --true or not --that this would occur if the black troops were caught by southern troops) so they fought to the death to the last man. -- after the fight for them refusing to surrender and thus forcing additional fighting which caused some additional maiming and killing of some of the southern soldiers (several more than if they had just surrendered when asked to )--  the angry southern soldiers piled their bodies in a heap and burnt them in revenge . --- the man who told me said his grandmother told him of it as a child --and said that she knew because it was upon her great grandpa's land (who was alive at the time * and told her as a kid)  he was there when the event occured in the civil war -I have also found out from the man I spoke to that according to him no union troops ever came in the area to "look" for the "lost  union patrol". so upon that bit of land is the burnt remains of between 30 to 50 men of the "lost patrol"-- I hope to attempt to find their remains ( if I can get land owner ok) and have them properly honored if I can.

A powerful story of folklore based on local rumor, I am sure.

The 54th Massachusetts Colored Infantry, 8th United States Colored Troops and the 35th United States Colored Troops of North Carolina who engaged the Confederates in the Battle of Olustee obviously were not part of your "lost patrol" story. It is safe to say...there was no small foot patrol unit of Black soldiers who were killed and bodies burned. However, good luck on your mission to validate this rumor.

Also, two thumbs up on being a good Samaritan.

Which bothers you most, the existence of the military unit or the other?

Which bothers you most, the existence of the military unit or the other?

This thread is not about SWR. Try making your posts to the topic, and not the other posters.

If you stayed with the post, you wouldn't have said what you did. I don't think the poster was asking anyone to try and prove him wrong. Stay with the post.

swr you are correct -- the 35th and the 54th and the 8th were all at olustee * the 8th usct ( which were green lightly trained troops who had never seen battle before -- at the time were placed on the  vital flank area -- a very ill advised move ) their commanding officer was killed early on in the battle--- they fought bravely by vainly --taking massive losses (over 300 men) before falling back in disarray -- late in the battle --the 35th and 54th were called into play to shore up the union lines both units are credited for fighting hard and well --as it became clear that the battle was lost ---the 54th was tasked with guarding the rear as they retreated -- of the about 5,000 union troops that took part in the battle 203 or (about 4% 1 in 25) are known as KIA --506 * or a bit over 10% of them  (1 in 10 ) are listed as MIA unaccounted for( meaning a real dead or missing in action count of 709 men or a bit over 14% of the total union troops there) and 1,152 wounded in action  (or better than 20% were listed as wounded in action) for a total of 1,861 or 37.22% chance of being killed,mia or wounded ( on a % basis it was one of the bloodest battles of the war)--more than 1 in 3 chances-- its been reported that bands of confederates went on the feild and shot wounded black soldiers after the battle was over rather than take then prisoners as they should have. --thus the high MIA count -- a small 30 to 50 man unit could have easily gotten cut off from the main body during the confusing union retreat from this mauling that they took and been hunted down by rebel calvary --(from what I gather it was black union foot soldiers and confederate calvary that boxed them in and attacked them) --still trying to find out details --I do not know fully the time frame that this occured at yet --only that it occured during the war -- if earlier it might be a a patrol / train track wrecking crew or if later on-- cut off stragglers from olustee but with 506 * MIA's listed from the battle and a badly messed up "retreat"-- a small group of 30 to 50 men being "lost" in the shuffle of the retreat would not be impossible in my veiw .

it might be some of the 506 MIA's--  heck thats 10% of the total union forces * in all that were at the battle  --with over 10% of their command unaccounted for as missing in action ( I think its clear the "retreat" was anything but orderly )--the unions losses would have been worse but the confederates follow up -after the defeated union troops was sloppy --and after taking such a beating the union troops had a very long trip back to jacksonville while being chased by confederates -- they passed thru baldwin , florida during their retreat --which of course is about 20 miles from my home --the area around here was well known for being rebel "freindly" country during the war and many of the local families served in the confederate cause. ( a lot as calvary folks)  --- during the raid on callahan,florida  -- on july 17th of 1864 * the 100 black foot soldiers and 125 calvary --arrested washington broward  & joseph hagan , burnt the home of mr jones ( known rebel) & joel wingate as well-- and freed slaves from the gigier farm --took horses from elizah higgenbottom --  my spelling might be off a bit but in in the records of capt JJ dickerson --local confedrate commander of the area at the time.

the event might have occured before --during or after the battle of olustee , I still trying to find out the details -- its sort of a shameful family passed down secret --something no ones too proud of ( they did not do it --the event just happened to have took place on their land) however if it had been reveled at the time during the war it would have caused real problems to land owner most likely since they were pro rebel ( had family in the southern army ) and for the families of those who actually done the deed as well - the union troops would have shown up burning their homes and taking or killing the livestock -- arresting the families ( women and kids) and shooting the men ( or at least prisoner of war)--  the civil war was hell , nothing "civil" about it.

I commend you Mr. Salis of sticking to yer guns , Not only was this war NOT civil, but nothing was impossible.  Even if all you do is prove this case wrong, It is the best that you could do.  Don't let anyone dissuade you from your quest, keep on doing what you do best (Research) and if you find that it is not true, let it be written in the minds and books of this world.  If you do find that it is true and can prove it with burned bones and many piles of buttons, then let the naysayers hang their heads in shame .............NGE 

It would be great if there was a document for every step of a treasure hunt, but that is not reality. If someone has such leads, please share one with me.
You have to step out and see if you can find reason to believe a story or not, but you can't afford to doubt from the start. Then you would never start.

-Peace-

later note ****this is freakish -- after completing the above post --I felt "compelled" to go see if this possible "site" had been developed or not --at 1 am in the morning mind you and its a fair bit from home --got in the car drove down there a sort of a remote area -- after seeing the spot -- I could have returned the way I came or take the long way around -- the was a small creek a bit down the other long road way --very possibly were the lost patrol got pinned in at --so I go that way -- as I approach it , it appears somethings in the road --the night fog was coming in but the image of something snaps me to --in the fog is a totally wrecked car with someone in it still --the car is still steaming and leaking gas --it had to have just occurred- I help the driver out ---the driver is muttering I thought I saw something in the road so I swerved -- its clear to see he went off the curve by the bridge --hitting trees with his passenger side which spun his car back on the road -- totally fubar ed-- the 20ish something kids beat up and bleeding but lucky to be alive --all he can do is cry "my car" over and over --silly kid -- hes standing by the car in the road even after I told him it might blow stay away from it -- then a huge dually type pick up comes flying like a bat outta --- down the road right at the no lights on wreck with the kid between the two --I flash my brights up and down several times to alert the oncoming truck --he pays no mind -- only at the last second does he see it and slam on brakes --close call--if I had not alerted him he would have plowed right into it kid wreck and leaking gas and all --boom. -- you know the "lost patrol" bodies  was burnt to a crisp.-- this is freaky indeed. === the dually truck never even stopped just went around us on the berm "rolled on"

Just wondering what the driver thought he saw in the road?  A ghostly apparition of a burned CW soldier?

Anyway Ivan, glad you were there to help out and your timing makes one wonder.......Coincidence? ...or...Divine intervention?  

Either way "You Da Man"  


GG~

keep us posted on the diggs

swr -- its clear from the offical union loss records of the battle of olustee that there were many MIA's (506) * or about 10% of the total amount of union troops that were there (*about 5,000)--- the retreat was not neat and orderly at all -- it was a near rout -- the losses would have been much worse had the rebel forces properly chased after the union forces promptly as they should have  --but they were leary of being ambushed by the rear guard units .--while the battle of olustee in general  was much written about later on*** in the safety of jacksonville , florida afterwards (often volumes of papers about  failed battles are written as various commanders try to shift "bllame" for their failure or make excuses as to why their battle plans failed or why their troops preformed poorly.

since there is no accounting as to where or when or how these 506  troops "dissappeared" --is it fair to say they didn't ? they have to be  somewhere didn't they ? -- it is possible that this group was a small band of straglers trying to limp their way along trying to catch up with the main union forces as they retreated ? if so no one in the main union forces would know of them till they "hooked" up  again --they would be MIA* and since the small band was totally wiped out --their would be no one left  to "record" their last moments --except for the confederates who did the deed and the people upon whos land the event occured (southern loyal folks) ---recording this type of event or speaking of it was not a smart thing to do at the time -- since union raiding troops if they found out what had occured would do "payback"  if they found out about it --thus --it got sweep under the rug historically speaking --( thus it was unwritten about ---only a oral family record of the event was kept passed down thru the family )--a dirty little secert not spoken of for many years to "outsiders" * that only has reared its head after many many years later now that its safe to speak of it
---when I started asking questions about a confederate calvary camp in the area (been trying to lock down its location) the man I spoke to kinfolks were well known to be in  in the confederate calvary 1st fla unit -- and he told me the "story" ---he is the direct decendant of the land owner upon whos land the event occured --I still have to ask him more questions to see if they know roughly where upon their land it occured --it was a very big farm  back then --- also I trying to lock down the time frame --pre ---post or during the olustee battle time frame.--because it may or may not be olustee related .

if while leaving the battle feild a small group of men (30 to 50) got detached from the main union forces group as it was retreating during the night---who in the main group would know where they went to or what became of them? no one thats who so they would be listed as MIA --missing in action----and if the small group was wiped out  --who would be left to report to union headquarters what became of them --no one thats who, so they would stay MIA--- no one except for those confederates who did the deed of wiping them out and burning the bodies would know what had become of them--(and the rebel forces wouldn't say squat for fear of "payback" by the union troops ) -- so this story would just "disappear" at the time something done but best not spoken of ( a dirty lil secret)-- only now many many years later can be it told safely , since all those who took part in it are all long dead . -- its logical and there  are a lot of MIA's from the battle of olustee. (506 to the best of my knowledge)

 swr you of course may think differantly on the matter -- and its your right to think so -- HOWEVER  I know that sometimes when everthing is not just neatly written down history wize , where you can just fact it in print easily  --(where one has to do ones own "boots on the ground" fact finding mission)---   sometimes theres "gaps" and one must think about about what might have occured using the info you already have to help fill in those gaps to get a better ideal of what might have occured, -- its called "creative thinking"--now I do not totally make up non sense stories -- I do honestly try to link up with known events to see what might have occured --because somewhere out there is 506 dead men from the battle of olustee that are MIA who's stories deserve to be told.

 

Stop arguing and go find this pile of dead men already!  

It should be close to 10 pm there now... almost time to head out.

*********************

Anyway... I found this of interest, not that it's gospel.

Source: http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th...USTEE-BATTLE-KIN/2006-10/1161585559

"In the 1860s and long after that, Florida was about the tail end of
nowhere. There are very few marked individual Confederate graves in
Florida and there was also a general dearth of record-keeping in the
area. With Florida battles such as Olustee, Marianna and Natural
Bridge, Union units that might be thought of as generally having better
records, were hampered by campaigns a considerable distance from any
really secure Federal area and rapid retrograde operations after the
battles. In spite of any intentions that Union forces may have had of
occupying areas they moved into during these campaigns, that just didn't
happen. So, the Confederates held the fields after the battles and they
had little capacity to record their own burials much less of any Union
casualties left on the field. They didn't even necessarily remain in
the battle areas in significant force for very long. They were
defending large areas of territory and considerable mobility was often
involved. But specifically as to Olustee, it is a matter of record that
the Union casualties buried by the Confederates were not identified, not
even one of the field grade Union officers. Further, it is recorded
that the Union graves at Olustee were shallow and that the bodies were
rooted out by hogs, which was not a situation unique to Olustee. After
the war a detail of the 7th U.S. Infantry gathered up and re-interred
what bones they could find, and there is a single monument because there
was a single burial site (this is not unique to Olustee either, and
example of mass graves of Confederates... not battle casualties but
deaths during imprisonment... include those at Chicago, IL, and Point
Lookout, MD). More unclear (to me at least) is what happened to
Confederate burials at the battlefield. Lt. Hoffman of the 7th U.S.
Infantry mentioned Confederate graves (undisturbed as of that time) on
the other side of the railroad in his report about the re-interrment of
the Union casualties. There seems to be a belief that those
Confederates were later reinterred at Lake City, but I have seen no
historical documentation of that as fact. If anyone has, I would love
to see a citation of the source."



  

jim ---going to chat tomorrow with the man -- whos family owned the land back then to see if he can be more "forth coming" as to the exact location / area --then secure the modern land owners permission as well --I think its still in the "family" --so chances are good I think. -- uh think I'll stick to daylight looking --thank you very much , enough of that stuff for now.

 Ivan , my money is on you . Don't quit your search because of one naysayer .
 I listened to a tale told by an old 'Granny Woman' when I was a gradeschool ankle biter and remembered it when I was grown . Followed the trail of her tale and verified that what she had told us was true .
 No money . The reward was in vindicating that wonderful old Lady that had entertained us kids with her stories that I proved to be true .
 Go find your lost patrol
 Jim

 even taken into account the POW'S that still leaves a lot of folks unaccounted for * this might very well account for some of em.

its worth looking into , in my veiw -- my time ,  my effort

that is possible --the event could be related to it --or it might not --it could be  be from before or after the battle occured (thus totally non related) -- again I say the exact time frame was not stated by the man -- more questioning needs to be done to figger out more about it exactly -- but with its large amount of MIA'S the story if true MIGHT be a small group lost during the night from the union army's main body as they retreated during the night  towards baldwin / jacksonville .

that is possible --the event could be related to it --or it might not --it could be  be from before or after the battle occured (thus totally non related) -- again I say the exact time frame was not stated by the man -- more questioning needs to be done to figger out more about it exactly -- but with its large amount of MIA'S the story if true MIGHT be a small group lost during the night from the union army's main body as they retreated during the night  towards baldwin / jacksonville .

Ivan,
If you think that it is a lead for something then go for it.
You already recieved a message to be there at a specific time, and you saved a life. You are meant to follow the lead and solve whatever it is you are supposed to.
From your past posts on here you are very good about researching your leads.
Go find what you are meant to find.

Any followup on the car accident? 

I tried to read about it in the Nassau County Record to see what kind of excuse the kid told the cops but there was no story.   Maybe it never made the paper.

the accident took place on jones road * thus  in jacksonville --- it dead ends into garden road -- going from the "T" when the two meet --with jones being the long up and down part of the T -- its down it a ways -- ypu go over a set of train tracks around a set of curves the a bridge over a small creek the amother set of curves * its more in the "jacksonville" area -- a fair bit from my home really --

to "road map " google track my trip --go from callahan south down US 1  to garden --( just before you get to  295 )-- turn right follow it it will sharp turn 90 degrees to the left  stay on it till it dead ends --this road is also called "garden" --turn right 90 degrees stay wth it -- it will "T" join with "jones"---turn left 90 degrees go down on jones -- a bit down jones theres a creek around the creek area is curves upon them is where the wreck occured. early in the am hours  of friday oct 2nd .

no dead body , so little press most likely -- the 20ish something kid did say he was visiting folks locally and was from NC-- other than that all he did was cry about --"my car dude my car " -- seemed like he didn't get the fact he was lucky (blessed)  to still be alive.

the accident took place on jones road * thus  in jacksonville --- it dead ends into garden road -- going from the "T" when the two meet --with jones being the long up and down part of the T -- its down it a ways -- ypu go over a set of train tracks around a set of curves the a bridge over a small creek the amother set of curves * its more in the "jacksonville" area -- a fair bit from my home really --

to "road map " google track my trip --go from callahan south down US 1  to garden --( just before you get to  295 )-- turn right follow it it will sharp turn 90 degrees to the left  stay on it till it dead ends --this road is also called "garden" --turn right 90 degrees stay wth it -- it will "T" join with "jones"---turn left 90 degrees go down on jones -- a bit down jones theres a creek around the creek area is curves upon them is where the wreck occured. early in the am hours  of friday oct 2nd .

no dead body , so little press most likely -- the 20ish something kid did say he was visiting folks locally and was from NC-- other than that all he did was cry about --"my car dude my car " -- seemed like he didn't get the fact he was lucky (blessed)  to still be alive.

Yea... I understand, no death, no story. 

Any followup on the car accident?  

I tried to read about it in the Nassau County Record to see what kind of excuse the kid told the cops but there was no story.  Maybe it never made the paper.

Call the police station. They might not tell you anything, but if you really want to know, it might be worth a try.

Have we fallen into having to prove other people's statements when they talk about a lead? Is our own life really that boring?

Who cares if it's fact or folklore, a kid's life was saved in the pursuit of finding out.  Sometimes research can be overrated.  So you go looking for a rumored site, you may find it, you may find something else, maybe old grandpas cache???  Half the fun of treasure hunting is the dream of what's there.  If we know for fact that a lead is totally false, we won't look there at all.  I can say some of my best finds have hit me by suprise, while I was looking for something else.  However if you are interested in finding a specific known treasure, research is all too important to disregard.  But the goosechases are fun too.

GREG

 its highly doubtful the nassau record newspaper would carry it for several reasons --#1--the accident occured on jones road (a good bit into jacksoville . thus outside of my local homepapers  area)  #2-- there was no death-- it was just a wreck ( thus of low "news" interest if its death or tragic * it leads in small town papers ) -- #3 it occured in the wee am hours of friday oct 2 nd --the nassau records  "lead " time even if carried is way before that *--thus this weeks edition was already "pressed"

Ivan - it's fine, I was just chatting. I'm not questioning the event, just wanted to read about it.  I cannot imagine why on earth you would state something like that unless it happened exactly like that.

Any followup on the car accident? 

I tried to read about it in the Nassau County Record to see what kind of excuse the kid told the cops but there was no story.   Maybe it never made the paper.

Call the police station. They might not tell you anything, but if you really want to know, it might be worth a try.

Have we fallen into having to prove other people's statements when they talk about a lead? Is our own life really that boring?

Um... I've been contributing to the conversation - Did you read the article I posted supporting the possibility of poor records and rooting hogs?  All you've been doing is giving SWR a hard time.  So, I wanted to read about the accident, I asked a question, Ivan responded, now I'm catching hell from you?  Frankly - it's none of your business. 

If you don't mind (which I know you do), I'm not interested in your approval.     

Goto bed.  Don't trip over your attitude on the way.   

Any followup on the car accident?  

I tried to read about it in the Nassau County Record to see what kind of excuse the kid told the cops but there was no story.  Maybe it never made the paper.

Call the police station. They might not tell you anything, but if you really want to know, it might be worth a try.

Have we fallen into having to prove other people's statements when they talk about a lead? Is our own life really that boring?

Um... I've been contributing to the conversation - Did you read the article I posted supporting the possibility of poor records and rooting hogs?  All you've been doing is giving SWR a hard time.  So, I wanted to read about the accident, I asked a question, Ivan responded, now I'm catching hell from you?  

If you don't mind (which I know you do), I'm not interested in your approval.    

Goto bed.  Don't trip over your attitude on the way.  

Why MJ, this doesn't sound like...you.

jim was not questioning me as far as "did it really happen?" ky cache ---he knows me too well for that to occur  -- he was just trying to find out more info about who the kid was ect ect like any good reasearcher would -- damn funny thing --most likely saved the fellows life but oddly didn't think at the time to catch his name -- only that he was from NC was visiting folks here and " dude my car , my car I musta spent 20 grand on fixing it up" non stop like a broken record  -- it bright tred and was sorta "pimped out looking" and had the little thin flat looking tires --well it used to have em would be more correct ---peace everybody

jim was not questioning me as far as "did it really happen?" ky cache ---he knows me too well for that to occur  -- he was just trying to find out more info about who the kid was ect ect like any good reasearcher would -- damn funny thing --most likely saved the fellows life but oddly didn't think at the time to catch his name -- only that he was from NC was visiting folks here and " dude my car , my car I musta spent 20 grand on fixing it up" non stop like a broken record  -- it bright tred and was sorta "pimped out looking" and had the little thin flat looking tires --well it used to have em would be more correct ---peace everybody

Okay, sorry for talking out of turn. I'll try not to do it again.

Ivan, Any chance of finding out what that kid really 'thought he saw in the road'?
I know most people would 'swerve' for most animals in a sudden confrontation on a country road, but;
let's investigate further 
Mike

Great thread.

I would like to know if anything turns up on the bodies.

Thanks for an interesting post.

Ray ECenFL

On finding the distressed driver... "Good Timing is better than Good Luck"

On the Civil War itself,... It was one of the stupidest reasons to fight a war over, but love its history and all the great relics you guys find.

So what happened?  Did you talk to the former owner?  Did you get permission?  Not to poke a beehive but I agree with you both.  Documentation is everything and nothing at the same time.  The story came frome SOMEWHERE, but probably became exagerated over the years.  I wouldn't doubt that a small unit could get surrounded and pinned down, and I wouldn't doubt that war crimes happened on both sides...especially with such hate and racial issues at the time (not that we don't unfortunately have them now...war crimes, racism and hate).  It is well worth looking into to find out more information...hey if you find a pile of black unit artifacts (charred or not) where the landowner tells you, you will at least prove that something happened there.  I would suggest that if you want to prove something though that you report it immediately and get some pros involved (although I would be the last one to call the pros   ).

All leads are worth exploring, because you never know....remember the Atocha

camp milton was routed by the union troops in their outward march out of jacksonville going toward olustee * as they went thru it and thru baldwin out bound towards sanderson and alligator */(lake city) going to the battle --it was also along their line of retreat after the battle as they returned -- the area in question is not too far from camp milton * ( a large camp that often held up to 5,000 confederate troops at times) thats true*  but at the time of the battle of olustee it was empty of confederate forces .

however if the event is not directly battle of olustee related ---say it occured before or a good bit afterward --the the confederates that did it very well might have been based at camp milton -- often small union rail road "wrecking" detachments ( about the size of this group) were sent out of jacksonville  to mess up the train  tracks -- the rebels had a large cannon (the same one used at the battle of olustee by the way. --based at camp milton * --they woulld push it on a flat car within a couple miles of jacksonville and shell the city at night . -- many times the union forces tried to wreck the rail trestles or mess up the tracks to prevent this from occuring *( it was a near daily cat and mouse fight --they break /we fix sort of deal) --it might have been a just such a detail like that that is the basis of rhe story  that is if it was not stragglers from olustee -- in my veiw  knowing the local civil war history as I do --It does have possible historical "legs" to it and thus might really be true and thus is worth checking out farther --called  the man today but got his answering machine --most likely at church still -- will try later on today to see if I can pump more info out of em.

Long-time lurker, infrequent poster. I log in almost every day to see the new treasures everyone digs up.

This thread especially got my attention and I wanted to add my 2 cents. I am a Florida native and history buff. I have no idea where or if it is even documented, but it is very "common knowledge" among Florida historians and genealogist that after the Battle of Olustee, surrendering Union black soldiers were shot and killed on and around the battlefield.

I know that bit of history about the battle of Olustee as well ( not a "proud" moment of southern history that those woundeed helpless men were shot while trying to surrender) --to fight a foe upon the feild of honor and kill him is one thing--but to kill a man that is unable to fight or who is honestly trying to surrender is another and is dishonorible in my veiw -- knowing the true history of Olustee is one of the reasons why I personally think that this story might just be true . --with the large numbers of union MIA's unaccounted for from the battle (many of them black) --I easily can see a small group of say 30 to 50 union black foot soldiers cut off from the main union body during the night as they were retreating towatds jacksonville after the battle , getting "pinned in" and wiped out by local confederate calvary troops ,  because after having seeing and hearing the "no mercy" treatment of Olustee they would not trust anyones word of fair treatment upon surrender.

if the group was not stragglers from olustee --- a 30 to 50 man union black troop "track track / trestle" wrecking party would be another strong and logical choice --with them coming from jacksonville and the calavary from camp milton .

After re-reading the original post, I'm only going to answer that

First, good for you for being willing to go with your gut.  Seems like *Something* was trying to get someone out there at that time and place.  You did say later that you didn't think to get the kid's name (understandable), but what happened then?  Did he call his relatives and get a lift home?  Did he call a wrecker?  Frankly, I'm curious as to what the kid thought he saw that caused him to wipe out.  

As for the first part, how cool!  I hope you do follow up on the family's story, and that they're willing, too.  From all my genealogy research, I know that a "family story" might be considered gospel, but when researched, are found to be faulty.  However(!)  many times they're based on some event that did happen, but later generations may have retained the general story, even if details have been "filled out."

So I'm all for further followup, easy for me to say from here, I know.  But it sounds like "something" happened, and that "something" may still remain.  Good luck!

Nan

well --the kid was left in the care of the paramedics that showed up --he was a bit beat up and bleeding --busted up arm --couple ribs cracked most likely and he had smacked his head on the windsheild so face and arm had cuts & bleeding  -- but overall he looked like he would be ok long term -- as the fire trucks came on the scene (they wanted to wash the gas and stuff and hose down the car for safety )--I was told that they did not needed me for anything and I was "free to go "--(basically your in the way of the fire truck ---so move along )  it was a small two lane road in the boonies -- so away I went

All negativity and doubting aside...I think the real fun in your search is the "search" itself.  It's like some people in Florida would like you to believe that there never were any pirates here.  There might not have been a "Jose Gaspar" but there were other pirates.  Documented by the Spanish, English, and U.S..  So what if you don't find buried pirate treasure...At least you can say you SEARCHED for buried pirate treasure!  How many people can say that? 

So what if you don't find proof of a lost Union patrol?  The fun is in the research, and the hunt!  How much value would you put on the stories you hear from old-timers?  If those family folklore stories aren't retold, they dissapear forever.  My grandfather told me 3 stories of his grandfather in the Civil War.  I doubt those stories are known to anyone else besides me and my father.  We just happened to have enough interest in history to remember them.  If I don't tell anyone else...when I die, the stories are gone forever.

As far as no record of either side burning soldiers bodies....I don't know...I haven't read the Official Records of the Rebellion...and that is kind of one side's knowledge of what happened, except for where other testimonies or letters/orders might have been used.

There is an account of Confederate troops burying black soldiers with their heads exposed, and running over them with wagons.  I can't remember if they were alive at the time, or it was just defacing the bodies, but that was on Ken Burns' documentery, as I recall...so things like that did happen.

The point is... enjoy the hunt, even if you don't prove the story...but you allready understand that I'm sure!

Yeah, but those UFO "documentaries" rely more on verbal accounts rather than offical "documents".

I know that when the aliens took me up into their ship, I didn't want to tell anyone what had happened up there, I REALLY didn't want to write any of it down.

There was something that looked like this:   involved.....

Deja vu!

SWR...It is hard to have a discussion based on reliable references and verifiable sources on a lead from a verbal history that is passed down through a family.

If someone burried a Mason jar full of Morgan dollars in 1940 and died before it was recovered, and the surviving family knew it was somewhere out in the woods behind the old homestead....there might not be too much written records of it, or notarized documentation.  That doesn't mean that it isn't out there under an old tree, and it doesn't mean that the great grandson of the original owner is lying when he says he has heard that there was a Mason jar full of silver coins somewhere on the old property.

Some things can't be proven by words written on a paper.

And a LOT of the things written down on paper aren't anywhere close to the truth!

And NGE....I think that is a serious stretch, and kinda uncalled for in my opinion.....

What I really want to know is, WHY does it HAVE to be written somewhere?  It seems that everytime someone tries to do something in here, someone comes in and shoots their story fulla holes and says it didn't happen, because its NOT recorded, reported, written, etc etc.  Now, the person that told me of some things that happened a long time ago, and can show me where certain things are buried in the woods a long ways from me, WILL try in any way they can to discredit my story, by saying; Where is it written?  Who told you such a cocka-maimy story, PROVE IT!  Because I didn't want to know these certain things, I cannot show anyone these things, but I can put myself in the general area, BUT, I would have over 200 acres to search.  Ivan heard about an incident, and thought that there may be a hint of truth in it, it was fate that told him to go at that time of night to that place on that road.  Sure some may not believe in the un-natural, I believe that there is an untold story waiting to be told and cleared up, and I also believe that the kid that wrecked his car there may have seen an apparition on the road.  Mr. Salis has already stated that he is willing to spend (waste) his time, money and energy trying to prove this story one way or the other.  Please, do not try to sway him from searching this.  One question for SWR, have you ever gone to any areas that you have research materials on and had a look-see, to see if what is written could possibly have been fiction, glorious embellishments, or just plain old masculine Bovine Excrement?...........NGE

I will REMOVE the said post that was thought to be inapproprate.  I still have my opinions and I will (in my mind) stick to them........NGE

We were all told stories of a great misdeed performed by the nazi's during WWII.  And there are stories from survivors, and some people that actually participated in these horrendous crimes, they are on the run and will tell their kids anything to put the blame on someone else.  Heck, there are even some groups that believe that The Holocaust never happened.  There is all kinds of proof.  I believe the stories of Dr'.s experimenting on hapless souls, but did all these get documented?  I don't think so.  So goes with the unwritten or little mentioned stories of some of the stuff that happened during the Un-Civil war.........NGE

oh folks are allowed to have differing views * --its what makes the world go round --- and folks can say ---- "in my point of veiw" without " peroid written down proof" the story is historically unrelible .  * such is their right.

however it is my point of view --that at times in the past there were things and historical details often not written down but recorded only by having the story passed down via oral history -- father to son --or mother to daughter -- or even grandpa to grand kids.  ---these stories often contain bits of history that never were recorded on paper --- at times they can be a lot of BS mixed in overtime --- but often theres a nugget of truth behind them --and at times a whole historically important story never told "outside" the family for the most part. -- finding these men would be liike bringing them to life agian --- "freeing" them from being lost souls and closing the book on final chapter of their lives.

not everything that occured in history was neatly written down -- and some that was is in error --- battles are often written about after the fact -- commanders twist facts to fit how they "think" things occured or to cover their "mistakes"--its the nature of mankind -- the victors of wars write the history of it. -- a small detatchment of men retreating in the dark after a very bloody battle , become seperated in the dark from the main group --with no one in the main body of the retreating army aware of it ---when the roll calls are called later on their simply not there "MIA" is the word --missing in action"--- with the small group being totally wiped out -- so theres no one to tell of the event except for the men who killed them and burnt them and a handful of witness (who were pro southern supporters )---to speak of it was to invite northern "payback"  upon your family and home --so the mouths stayed shut --one did not tell even ones freinds and neighbors for fear it might get leaked.

This is the kind of story that the soldiers and people in the community would not exactly be bragging about, writing down, or telling their children. However, if this did happen, it could survive as a kind of dark secret. Stories get exaggerated over time, but I could easily see 6-7 black soldiers executed and burned to cover the evidence.

Union soldiers did not exactly spare the torch on many a Southern community. "Crimes" were committed on both sides. No doubt there were some pissed off Confederates ready to exact some revenge.

I think it would be GREAT if any evidence could be found, and their bones properly laid to rest.

I'd be happy to assist with any research at the Florida State Archives here in Tallahassee.

the man that the  story was learn from by me -- his  great grandkin were in the 1st florida calvary (confederate) company B-- higgenbotham* one of the three who served from the family ---  who was called up and went to tennesse finally surrenderd I think at wars end in north carolina --and he is buried in dinsmore , florida  *---so the man's confederate direct kin folk of the past did NOT take part in the killing ---however it was upon their homestead / farm land area that the act is reported to have occured. -- as his family was former confederate soldier himself --I strongly doubt that the man I heard it from would wish to "slur" the history of the local confedrate soldiers unless said story had some basis in fact.--- but thats just my veiw point on the issue.

-- finding these men would be liike bringing them to life agian --- "freeing" them from being lost souls and closing the book on final chapter of their lives.

That is a grand philosophy, Ivan.

Alternatively, if you fail to find those men you have freed the false accusations of the honorable men who fought and died for the Confederate States of America. And you can close the chapter on yet another horrific rumor created at their expense.

It is truley a win win situation

 What was honorable about the CCS SHENANDOAH ?


                                           tinpan

as for the CSS Shenandoah*  she was fitted out as a merchant raider * one of the objects of war is to disrupt enemy supply lines and trade -- this was her "appointed" task --england supplied war goods to both sides during the civil war *

according to the record as much as possible lives were spared *by the CSS Shenandoah with lives only taken in fighting-- if they surrendered the ships were sunk and all lives spared , since her captain had "conflicting" news in the newspaper --lees surrender * vs davis vow to fight on --since davis was the president  --he took davis vow to fight on as an "order" over lees surrender--and continued to do so --- later on upon hearing of davis's surrender -- and knowing that they might be charged as "pirates" --as confederate merchant raiders often wrongly were they wizely headed to england to surrender.

call 3 times today -- not at home answering machine -- but I'm on the hunt now just a matter of time .

as for the CSS Shenandoah*  she was fitted out as a merchant raider * one of the objects of war is to disrupt enemy supply lines and trade -- this was her "appointed" task --england supplied war goods to both sides during the civil war *

according to the record as much as possible lives were spared *by the CSS Shenandoah with lives only taken in fighting-- if they surrendered the ships were sunk and all lives spared , since her captain had "conflicting" news in the newspaper --lees surrender * vs davis vow to fight on --since davis was the president  --he took davis vow to fight on as an "order" over lees surrender--and continued to do so --- later on upon hearing of davis's surrender -- and knowing that they might be charged as "pirates" --as confederate merchant raiders often wrongly were they wizely headed to england to surrender.

hi ivan  ,Attacking unarmed civil shipping in the uncharted and unprotected territorial waters of a neutral country is hardly brave or honorable.

                                  tinpan

Find them!!!!!!!!!!!!!

merchant vessels of countries at war * unless in port generally are always at risk and are though of as fair game --to be a unarmed merchant vessel means you should stop and yeild to the armed vessel --- since attempts to flee will cause you to be fired upon and needless loss of life ----said armed vessel is to remove the crew and passengers of the unarmed vessel unharmed and  take whatever goods they wish and sink said enemy vessel without loss of life.

while not "brave or noble" that is the task of a "commerace or trade raider" to disrupt enemy shipping / supply lines and cost them money --hopefully they will then pull vessels off blockade duty to try to hunt the raider --thus opening the coast for confederate blockade runners to be able to work and bring in supplies to the south -- union blockade vessels stopped southern "trade" --why shouldn't the confederates do the same via "raiders"?

merchant vessels of countries at war * unless in port generally are always at risk and are though of as fair game --to be a unarmed merchant vessel means you should stop and yeild to the armed vessel --- since attempts to flee will cause you to be fired upon and needless loss of life ----said armed vessel is to remove the crew and passengers of the unarmed vessel unharmed and  take whatever goods they wish and sink said enemy vessel without loss of life.

while not "brave or noble" that is the task of a "commerace or trade raider" to disrupt enemy shipping / supply lines and cost them money --hopefully they will then pull vessels off blockade duty to try to hunt the raider --thus opening the coast for confederate blockade runners to be able to work and bring in supplies to the south -- union blockade vessels stopped southern "trade" --why shouldn't the confederates do the same via "raiders"?

So  why did both the union and confederates sign the "Treaty of Neutrality" with the British and their colonies ?

                                                tinpan

oh one reason could be *** because both sides got arms and supplies from england and neither one wanted to lose english support -- they both would have signed anything that england ask for --and neither one would attack english ships directly -- however the union blockade the southern ports  "disrupted"  normal british shipping to the south --by being neutral england could sell to both sides -- thus making a lot of money --and since either side could ill afford england going with the other side -- terms of a sort were reached -- english ships would bring in supplies to be sold to the "confederate cause"  into it colony of nassau * there it was sold and transfered onto "blockade runners" which were then fair game for union vessels as they tried to run the blockade of the southern coast line -- the union liked the deal since they only had to watch the US southern coast line and not spread out their forces trying to be everywhere at once -- the english like it since their shipping and selling of goods was not bothered * and the south like it since it cut down on the otherwize long trip to england -- only short fast trips to nassau were need to get supplies .

later on in the war the english "offically" quit selling supplies to the south --so there was no longer a issue of whos "side" they were on --they had went "union" --so past items signed by the south were then were in effect null and void .

oh one reason could be *** because both sides got arms and supplies from england and neither one wanted to lose english support -- they both would have signed anything that england ask for --and neither one would attack english ships directly -- however the union blockade the southern ports  "disrupted"  normal british shipping to the south --by being neutral england could sell to both sides -- thus making a lot of money --and since either side could ill afford england going with the other side -- terms of a sort were reached -- english ships would bring in supplies to be sold to the "confederate cause"  into it colony of nassau * there it was sold and transfered onto "blockade runners" which were then fair game for union vessels as they tried to run the blockade of the southern coast line -- the union liked the deal since they only had to watch the US southern coast line and not spread out their forces trying to be everywhere at once -- the english like it since their shipping and selling of goods was not bothered * and the south like it since it cut down on the otherwize long trip to england -- only short fast trips to nassau were need to get supplies .

later on in the war the english "offically" quit selling supplies to the south --so there was no longer a issue of whos "side" they were on --they had went "union" --so past items signed by the south were then were in effect null and void .

Under maritime law at the time, any ship in trouble could seek safe ancorage in any port to make repairs.When the Shenandoah had rudder problems this right was given to them under this law.Thus the Shenandoah ancored in Port Philip Bay.The Union Ambassador to the Colony of Victoria at the time demanded the sinking of the Shenandoah and the crew be arrested.Fine line between existing law and the Treaty. So was it broken.The Union Ambassador wrote a letter about this in the local papers and the next morning 17,000 local colonials went down to the port to cheer the "Shenandoah". Maritime law prevailed and the Shenandoad sailed off. The union seeked legal action against the Colony Of Victoria after the Civil War ended.Seems we breached the Treaty and had to pay the UNION   thousands of pounds to pay for the damage done to union ships attacked by the Shenandoah because we respected Maritime law.

Seems this Colony never sided with the Union and the British considered Victoria a pack of rebels. So our hearts at the time where with the South.

                                           tinpan

as i said "the british" made money off the war ---not the aussies -- the "regular" british were using aussie land as a penal colony until 1868 (post civil war) and thought of its people as scum for the most part sadly --and the native local population of folks already there as a "problem" to be dealt with much as the indains were in the US midwest --wipe em out or force them into bleak wasteland areas under govt control

of course the sent in "locals"  --penal convicts and decendants of penal convicts for the most part --  forced to be in aussie land by the british penal system --would root for the southern rebel "underdog" vs what they viewed as "big govt" the us govt -- much as they had a "us vs them" veiw of aussie vs english -- some who could leave aussieland even joined on as part of the vessels crew I think.

i do not lump "england / the british" and aussieland together at this time -- more like england was the boss and aussie land was just starting to be "independant" of doing whatever england said.

All the subjects covered in this thread, and all the comments, and we are still only on page 1.  I wonder where else this thread will take us?   Believe me, it is entertaining, and I will read as new posts are added.
Wish I knew enough about the events that are being mentioned to make a helpful comment, but I don't.   So, I will read.....all of your posts.....and learn.   (BTW, interesting about war atrocities.....I am living in Korea, where the Japanese did their share of ugly things to this nation.)   

I wish you well on this interesting quest. I would forget all the naysayers and just stick with getting permission to hunt the area that you believe may hold the answers. Atrocities were committed by both sides during the CW, so this event if true, it's nothing out of the norm. As far as record keeping the Confederacy was a little lacking in that area. Good luck 

Ex Army 160th SOAR here.   And for the record, we've done alot of things that you won't find in any records or that would "fit" into any of the written history you will find..

Keep digging.

there is no way I would call this search off......I have a story I am looking into myself......about 10 years ago a buddy of mine told me that about 10 years before (total of roughly 20 years ago now) he and the girl he dated in high school were visiting her Grandfather.....the old man told my buddy that he had been hiking not too far from his house and found a cave hidden by some bushes.....inside the cave was a bunch of CW supplies......he couldnt find the cave again because of the afore mentioned bushes.....is this true or a lie?......who knows but unless the old man or my buddy lied then I think it is definately a possibility because I heard it second hand .... old man told my buddy who told me....it hasnt been passed down a hundred times and exxagerated each time.......in Ivan's case.......the old man that lived on the property at the time of the killing/burning.....told the granddaughter who in turn told Ivan....again second hand.....not passed down several times.......is it true?....who knows ..... there is nothing that would stop me from looking....it isnt like looking for a shipwreck that costs thousands of dollars with just a hope of finding something....he would only be out a few dollars at a time for gas and MD batteries....and if he DOES find something then he can report it to the archies or historical society (if he chooses)....and THEN IT WOULD BE DOCUMENTED!!!!

note the man who told me the story his last name is "Higginbotham"in the book --"confederate military history" as edited by Gen Clement A. Evans -- volume 11 Texas and Florida * --- in the florida section --written by Col. JJ Dickison -- it was noted that during the union raid  that occured on July 17th,1864 (thus well after the battle of Olustee)  Major Fox and 100 black foot soldiers and 125 calvary troops took the horses of ELIJAH HIGGINBOTHAM  -- this man is the direct in line blood kin of said story teller * his farm was a rest area for confederate horses that need to rest and rebuild their strengh --his job was to take care of the horses

also worth noting -- during the raid two homes were burnt down Joel Wingate's and Mr Jones ( Jones horses were taken as well)---Mr Gieger's slaves were taken as well --2 men --Joseph Hagans and Washington Broward were arrested .

the Higginbotham / Higgenbotham family is known to spell their names differantly --one branch of the family one way --one the other but they are  related to one another still.---there are 3 Higgenbotham's listed in the 1st florida company B --- also after the war the Higginbothams married alot with the Jones (several members in company B) and also with the Braddocks --(also several member in company B) many of the common local family names of today were in company B
 
I spoke with him again today --he told me his kin was "ELIJAH HIGGINBOTHAM" and that sadly he had not asked for more info as a child and thus he did not know the exact farm location only the general area --after offering him all the civil war info I dug up on various branches of his family tree that I dug up --he said he would check with "grumpy" Higginbotham ( a very old but very knowledgible kin folk of his ) --the family know it all**type  to see if he knew anything more for me.

tag, very interesting thread

[Nowhere in the history of the Civil War will you find one side or the other burned the bodies of dead soldiers.]

Oh good grief, Ivan. There are scads of documentation surrounding the Battle of Olustee, the aftermath of the battle and even the retreat of the Union back to Jacksonville. Somebody told you a story about some colored troops that were out gunned...killed and then the bodies burned as revenge. These dots do not connect. Nowhere in the history of the Civil War will you find one side or the other burned the bodies of dead soldiers.
You cannot twist/spin real historical facts to fit folklore.  

Harper's Weekly, (30th April, 1864)

     We give on page 284 a sketch of the horrible Massacre at Fort Pillow. The annals of savage warfare nowhere record a more inhuman, fiendish butchery than this, perpetrated by the representatives of the “superior civilization” of the States in rebellion. It can not be wondered at that our officers and soldiers in the West are determined to avenge, at all opportunities, the cold-blooded murder of their comrades; and yet we can but contemplate with pain the savage practices which rebel inhumanity thus forces upon the service. The account of the massacre as telegraphed from Cairo is as follows:



     On the 12th April, the rebel General Forrest appeared before Fort Pillow, near Columbus, Kentucky, attacking it with considerable vehemence. This was followed up by frequent demands for its surrender, which were refused by Major Booth, who commanded the fort. The fight was then continued up until 3 p.m., when Major Booth was killed, and the rebels, in large numbers, swarmed over the intrenchments. Up to that time comparatively few of our men had been killed; but immediately upon occupying the place the rebels commenced an indiscriminate butchery of the whites and blacks, including the wounded. Both white and black were bayoneted, shot, or sabred; even dead bodies were horribly mutilated, and children of seven and eight years, and several negro women killed in cold blood. Soldiers unable to speak from wounds were shot dead, and their bodies rolled down the banks into the river. The dead and wounded negroes were piled in heaps and burned, and several citizens, who had joined our forces for protection, were killed or wounded. Out of the garrison of six hundred only two hundred remained alive. Three hundred of those massacred were negroes; five were buried alive. Six guns were captured by the rebels, and carried off, including tow 10-pound Parrotts, and two 12-pound howitzers. A large amount of stores was destroyed or carried away.

http://mac110.assumption.edu/aas/Reports/harpftpillow.html

     I don't know how accurate the Harpers Weekly was in it's reporting but it appears that there is written records of black troops bodies being burned by Confederate soldiers.

Charlie

 I'm on your side . Go for it !
 Jim

     I agree it was/is controversial, here is another link to several official reports.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/learning.htm

I have read through about 1/2 of them and so far no mention of burning the dead bodies of soldiers but there is no doubt in my mind that it was a horrendous fight with questionable tactics.

Charlie

     My point is that the story Ivan heard could very possibly have some truth to it. I don't know whether I want him to find it or not, what a horrible thing to see even after 150 years.

Charlie

    
http://www.civilwarhome.com/learning.htm


     In conclusion, it may not be altogether improper to state that I was one of the number wounded, at first considered mortally, after the surrender; and but. for the aid soon afterward extended to me by a Confederate captain, who was a member of an order to which I belong (Free Masonry), I would in all probability have shared the fate of many of my comrades who were murdered after having been wounded. This captain had me carried into a small shanty, where he gave me some brandy and water. He was soon ordered to his company, and I was carried by the rebels into the barracks which they had occupied during the most of the engagement. Here had been collected a great number of our wounded, some of whom had already died. Early the next morning these barracks were set on fire by order of a rebel officer, who had been informed that they contained Federal wounded. I was rendered entirely helpless from the nature of my wound, the ball having entered my right side, and ranging downward, grazed my lung. and deeply imbedded itself in my nip (where it still remains) out of easy reach of surgical instruments. In this condition I had almost given up every hope of being saved from a horrible death, when one of my own men, who was less severely wounded than myself, succeeded m drawing me out of the building, which the flames were then rapidly consuming.
        As to the course our Government should pursue in regard to the outrages perpetrated by the rebels on this as well as on a number of occasions during the existing rebellion, I have only to express my belief that some sort of retaliation should be adopted as the surest method of preventing a recurrence of the fiendish barbarities practiced on the defenders of our flag at Fort Pillow.

I am, sir, very respectfully, your obedient servant.
MACK J. LEAMING,
Lieut. and Adjt. 14th Tennessee Vol. Cav., late 13th Regt.

I guess it was mentioned in an official report

for what "rough info" I 've been able to gather * the" event" appears to have occured after the battle of Olustee ( feb of 1864) as the union troops were retreating toward baldwin / jacksonville area during the night from the battle of Olustee in disarray -- a small detachment ( 30 to 50  black infantry soldiers) got lost or forced away from the main body of the union retreat * --and got trapped and "pinned down" (on or very near the Elijah Higginbotham farm) by confederate calvary after being unwilling to surrender when asked to several times  by them ( of course after seeing the type of treatment given other black troops at the battle of Olustee who had tried to "surrender or were left wounded on the feild"-- this is quite understandible)

 SWR ---the point of posting the info on the "later" callahan raid that occured July 17th of 1864 (is not to "disprove the story" but rather bloster it) its was posted only to link the fact that the man who told me the story had direct family links to the area in question and that the union"raided" the horses of his  kinfolk ( Elijah Higginbotham * was a confederate supplier of horses and also his farm was a rest and rehab farm for them a well)- it is at the old "Elijah Higginbotham" farm where the event is said too have occured at *

why would a man who is proud of his family southern military service (and he is)with several kinfolk in both sides of his blood line in the confederate army  --    tell such a horrible tale upon fellow confederate troopers of doing such a horrorible deed? ---this would be unthinkible in my veiw---- unless of course its true and offended the families sense of "honor" and justice. -- while war is war --some things just aren't right --to kill a enemy in battle is one thing  -- however mistreat their bodies afterwards --is not honorible in most everyones view.

Go with your gut, Ivan.  And good luck.  If you assemble a team to hunt your location, I'd be honored to join in (I'm in Orlando with lots of free time).
Don't fear the naysayers - just imagine where we would be if we only believed in "written accounts" of anything. 

well currently I trying to nail down a more exact location of the old "Elijah Hogginbotham"* farm site during the civil war era -- while I have a "general area" --its vast-- way too big to hunt and get oks for  -- I need to refine the area much more to be able to what I view is a real shot at finding the location ---normal land records are not going to be much help in this case --the great jacksonville. fla fire of 1901 wiped up most land deed records before then making checking up on it by old land deeds impossible --so I going to have to depend on old "grumpy" Higginbotham -- the old family "memory keeper" as  the man who told me the story calls em --he said he would ask him what if anything he can remember related to this "story" --the guys older than dirt I understand .

everyone is entitled to their own view point *-- right or wrong -- in anothers eyes --I think the story has a good possibility of being true --you do not -- so it is very clear to me that we have "polar opposite" veiw points --- sort of like + and - , yes and no , light and dark.

fine exsample -- I find  a historical referance to "elijah higginbotham" -- the mans kin who was a confederate horse farmer that ran a " horse holding and rehab" place for the local confederate calvary units mounts upon the family farm ( and upon whos farm the  earlier "event" * was said to occur around the time of the retreat from the battle of Olustee in feb of 1864) --whos farm was later raided and who's horses were taken by union troops ( the july 17th 1864 raid upon callahan) you grab this bit of info on the raid of july 17th ,1864 saying --yep that proves the earlier "event" did not occur -- where I veiw this as backing up the mans story . -- #1that his kins men was indeed backing the southern cause #2 --did have a horse farm #3 was logically therefore supplying mounts to local confederate calvary forces #4  of which there were 3 cousins in service -- in 1st florida calvary company B -- (3 men all "higgenbotham") the family has two "branches" --higginbotham and higgenbotham --spelt both ways but all kinfolk .-- I see these facts as a + you as a - each to their on veiw point.

yes I will check as far into this as I can * -- the story if true needs to be solved .
and I can not for the life of me think of why a man whos family background has several confederate calvary soldiers in it (elijah higginbotham , 3 other higgenbothams , several braddock and jone thru later post war marriages-- note these kin folk are all listed in the documented civil war musters of the 1st florida calvary unit availible online.)  which hes very proud of -- why would he  tell such a dark and ugly and shameful tale about other confederate calvary troops doing such a deed.-- unless there is some basis of truth in it. --
but as I say thats just MY point of veiw.

 

 

...I believe the media over exaggerated these issues.
...

This is a HUGE problem when doing research.  Lots of things made it into the media, blowing things way out of proportion all for the sake of selling more prints. 

the documentation that you ask for is in the records * ---the union records show 506 union soldiers * MIA ---while gen finegan battle report of feb 26th , 1864 **only accounts for 418 union wounded taken prisoner --- a differance of 88 men still MIA unaccounted for * these man could easily be the 30 to 50 man group in the story --finegan speaks of a rapid and disorderly retreat during the night by union troops toward jacksonville --exactly the type of thing that could lead to a small band being lost or cut off from the main body during the night.

** finegans report  of feb 26th , 1864 -- source -- the war of the rebellion -a compilation of the records of the union and confederate armies , series I , part 1 --pages 308 - 330

of the unwillingness of the small band to surrender due to fears of being killed * -- see the sept 25th letter by union gen  E A Hitchcock- --the small number of black union prisoners taken was highly noticible* as it is well known many black wounded were left on the feild * -- the fact had came to light that ga regulars and vollenteers of colquitt's brigade went on the feild killing wounded colored soldiers. -- his letter urges that the matter be"looked into" since several of the members of that command were taken as prisoners.

worthy of note : in colquitts report of the battle * dated feb 26th , 1864 --it was noted that he instructed his calvary to "close follow " the retreating union forces and take every opportunity to strike a favorible blow * -- ----(Ie dog em and kill em if given the chance )-- since it was  men under "colquitts's" command  who were the ones blamed for the killing of the wounded black troops on the feild at Olustee *(there was a bad shortage of confederate medical supplies at the time and they wanted to insure it was used for white confederate wounded soldiers so they shot the black wounded union soldiers rather than see them get treated using up "their"confederate  medical supplies -that and rasist hate of the north using their former "slaves" to beat the south enraged the southern troops)-the large numbers of wounded soldiers over whelmed  all the local hospitals --- with that commands past misdeeds in mind similar behavior from his calvary troops would not be suprizing if they caught up with a small deteachment that refused to surrender.

I never said it was major fox and his men that were killed ***-- I only used the july 17th 1864 raid to show that "elijah higginbothams" horses were taken by union troops at the time ( which was 5 months after the battle of olustee which occured in feb * the raid occured in july*) ---

the reason for refering to the "raid" at all was to note elijah higginbotham* who is the direct boold kin of the story teller ( elijah higginbotham was a confederate "horse wrangler" --his farm was used to rest and rehab wore out confederate calvary mounts)--- it was at higginbothams farm that the earlier event took place *after the battle of olustee in feb.---  info from the july 17th raid report of 5 month later shows that the union forces took horses from his farm -- thus proving he had horses at his farm backing up the family story that he was a supplier of horse to connfederate forces  --- about the story *****it appears to me that some of colquitts calvary after the battle of olustee -- which he order to follow closely the retreating union forsces and strike them--chased down a small detachment of  retreating black soldiers who got lost or broken away from the main bosy of the union forces --they refused to surrender --this enraged the calvary as several of them were hurt  / killed during the fighting after surrender was offered --so the black soldiers were totally wiped out -- also in revenge for them not surrendering as they should have and causing several needless southern injuries / deaths afterwards by restistingthe confederate calvary troops stacked and burnt their bodies.

yes --- elijah higginbothams "horse" farm  is the place that the "event" was reported to have occured at. -- colquitts  rebel calvary might have been headed there for "fresh mounts" or to check up on the farm as they were coming from the battle of Olustee and ran across the lost small union detachment of black infantry --or esle the confederate calvary might have broke them away from the unions main body as they retreated during the night  and hounded them into the spot on / by the farm -- no fully sure which way it happened yet  ( however since the farm is known as a confederate calvary horse supply spot and had been behind "enemy" lines when the union forces had advanced toward lake city coming out of jacksonville * going towards Olustee -- the confederate forces checking up on the farm / supply spot makes good common sense to me.)

ok see trout creek were its marked? it turns in to a small long creek and crosses the main callahan to jacksonville road (a dark line on your map --known then as "the kings highway" the northern road out of jacksonville running towards folkston ,ga at the time  -- roughly modern us 1 's path *--- the farm was on the left hand side --  near where then area of the  small arm of trout creek  is roughly at . -- that area is where jones road meets with garden on a modern map

 if black union foot troops coming out of baldwin were cut away from the body and forced / driven  in a north east direction by colquitts confederate calvary -- they would run into the small "feeder" arms of the trout river ( around the modern--- jones / garden street  rough area on todays maps ) -- the foot soldiers could not ford these creeks without risking getting the rifles and powder wet -- thus basically making them defenseless --so they would be "pinned down" unable to cross the creeks for fear of getting wet -- all they could do was hunker down and fight --and hope and pray for union help to come along ( they were too far away from the main body for that to happen) or to somehow try to "break out" and get away --vs horse mounted confederate troops however -- there was no real hope of that happening either.

"kings highway" aka as US1 today runs thru jacksonville --- it was a main drag type of road during the civil war era -- running northward to folkston ,ga thru several small towns in northeast florida  (callahan is one of them --callahans importance in the civil war was it was where the north / south running " kings highway road" ran across the east /west train track route that ran from fernadina to baldwin ( there was a train station and telegraph station here as well as supplies **)--- baldwin was highly important since it linked the train track route from east  (fernandina) / west (cedar key) running routes to the north( many places) / south ( jacksonville) running lines one of which ran south thru camp milton and into jacksonville proper  --

theres a triangle here -- look at the map from 1864 * callahan to jacksonville is roughly modern US 1 * --- callahan to baldwin is roughly highway 301*---- baldwin to jacksonville is roughly highway 90

SEE WHERE THE BLACK DOT IS * the two small creeks on the left are feeder arm creeks part of  "trout river" the elijah higginbotham farm was in the area by them * if you draw a line from baldwin to where the black dot is at thats thats their  direction of their route of travel once attacked but it stops at the area where the feeder creeks are at ( higginbothams farm) short of where the dots at .

their blue line "retreat route"--- I think of ran something like this  remember it was going on night fall as the retreat began --- Olustee from the battlefeild toward sanderson --- sanderson toward barbers --- barbers toward baldwin ---  right after leaving baldwin * while headed towards jacksonville however they were attacked and chased by confederate calvary off the main retreat route and driven upwards in a  North Easterly direction towards the small feeder creeks area of trout river --(where elijah higginbothams farm was at) and where they got  "pinned down" and wiped out at ---  note *** this area is close to jones and garden meet in a "T" on a modern day map ---thus these black infantry soldiers never got back to jacksonville at all --- because if they had they would have been "accounted" for in the post battle musters and not be MIA'S

 the "modern" roads I spoke of --- is to try to show on modern maps were the main drag roads were  back then .

both callahan and baldwin were important in the civil war as rail road towns --callahan be cause it was where "kings road"  running from south (jacksonville) to north (folkston,ga) crossed the train tracks that ran from fernandina (east) to to baldwin (west) as such it was important

baldwin was a major rail hub * --connecting (western) cedar key tracks to eastern running tracks callahan / fernandina) -- it also had tracks that linked southward to camp milton and into jacksonville proper ---as well as to lake city (those tracks ran right by the olustee battle site and the confederate rail gun was on them that was used in the battle )

ah but read what colquitt wrote on feb 26th , 1864 --- his calvary chased the for several miles but night fall brought a end to fighting --" qoute" from his report --- "instructions WERE given to the calvary to close follow the enemy and seize every opportunity to strike a favorible blow."

note -- I think these "lost men" might be from the 1st north carolina ( a green bunch of black infantry troops that had never saw action before ) there losses are listed as 199 enlisted and 10 officers --

according to a account recorded long after the battle on  jan 17th ,1929 * by a very old civil war vetern --lawrence jackson --confederate  2nd fla calvary company "c"

its part of the memory of a man who was there - from 2nd fla calvary company "c" - that they got to baldwin --the day after the battle at sun up -  the tail end of the union column had just left town in his account they caught up with the tail end wagons and took the troops prisoner at "harts" farm
 so there was some action that occured during the retreat * so at least some of the confederate calvary did catch up with the retreating union units * before they got back to jacksonville --might another group of confederate calvary have caught up with & chased down the missing foot soldiers if they were traveling in the rear of the column ** its possible I think**** of course due to what occured no one would say much about it, however.  ( i'm thinking they might be from the 1st north carolina group --199  & 10 officers listed as "losses") as per col james montgomery's report

the reason I speak of it is -two fold the confederate troopers must have chased after the union troops to be in baldwin --it was noted that 2 companies did go out after the union troops in the night --- but not all of the calvary did --there was hell to pay for that blunder ****
 I speak of this only to show that they (some of the rebel calvary forces) caught up with some of the retreating union forces between baldwin and jacksonville *  this is the point , I'm getting at . -- the old timers mind might be fuzzy as to the proper exact dates upon when it occured but his general story fits my theory of how the events of the "lost partol" might have occured.

read capt skinners report --he says he set fire to the town and left following the rail road tracks coming upon 3 rail cars one with boxes of hard bread (hard tack) on it still that they pushed 3 miles  --the confederate old timer reports that the town was burning as they came in and of them finding hard tack bread along the tracks as they chased the union troops . --the old boy wasn't totally daft it seems.

Wouldn't a beers map be helpful to show the location of Higginbothams farm?  It should be marked...especially if his family owned it up until at least the turn of the century...Ill see if there is one on-line

you were near the general area some what . -- upon more checking with the story teller --it seems that madison higgenbotham (sgt) and james h higgenbotham listed in 1st florida calvary company B --were "elijah higginbotham" --brothers !!! so their names are either miss spelled by the enroller or they used a varient spelling at the time , it seems that while the others went to war -- elijah was used to stay put and tend the confederates calvary horses upon the family farm -- since he was working for the confederate cause by tend the confederate horses he was in effect still in the military "offically"--( by law *all males 18 to 45 were drafted)--- however once the July 17th , 1864 raid occured the horses were gone (taken by union troops )--so he was then taken in as a regular infantry foot soldier and fought up north --being paroled in NC at wars end.

the event was supposed to have occured --as the union troops were retreating from olustee towards jacksonville * ( feb 1864)-- a detachment of confederate calvary is said to have caught up with the rear guard or stragglers --black union infantry -- they chased and pinned the down --refusing to surrender (the black union troops feared being killed if the surrendered) they were wiped out . -- the rebels had offered to allow them to surrender --but they replied your word of honor means nothing to us * thus insulting the rebels -- in return afterwards --the rebel calvarymen burnt the  union black infantrymens bodies rather than properly burying them .

I have noticed that the old civil war era rail road line ( currently called the "rails to trails" bike path ) crosses --jones road * a bit down the road -- could this be the path that they fled upon ?-- it reported that wagons were carrying wounded union soldiers * in the very rear of the retreat out off baldwin * could this be where the union soldiers came from ? and its reported that calvary troops were hot after the rear guard chasing union troops as they left baldwin ,

Then Ivan should simply give up and forget about it. We should all cease investigating events that may or may not have happened because if it would have happened surely there would be reams of documents supporting it. Especially considering how well documented and how detailed every second of every event of the Civil War was. I mean it's only been 144 years. It is impossible to think anything took place unnoticed and off the record since we all know 19th century war was incredibly orderly. Those 500 MIA soldiers couldn't possibly have anything to do with this because they couldn't have been missing in such a manner. We should never look for MIA soldiers based on unsupported tips and leads. I mean it's just 30-50 possible MIAs.

Right?

yeah, what GL said......NGE

It's Ivan's gig... he'll either find more information, some proof, another witness's story, or something.

Either way - it remains a story and always will I guess, now that this post exists - the perpetual electronic story.

Someday Ivan - or someone - will have to find the place where this deed was reported to have happened, or figure out that it didn't happen by accounting for those missing dudes.




I heard they hiked south and joined the Confederacy, and that's why the Union never found them.

If someone has a lead or tip, weak or otherwise, to the location of possible MIA soldiers then I feel it should be followed through and supported. There were over 500 MIAs reported in the area, this could possibly account for up to 50 of them. I think it is obviously worth checking into at the very least.
That's what I offer to this thread, support for the search for MIAs.

If someone has a lead or tip, weak or otherwise, to the location of possible MIA soldiers then I feel it should be followed through and supported. There were over 500 MIAs reported in the area, this could possibly account for up to 50 of them. I think it is obviously worth checking into at the very least.
That's what I offer to this thread, support for the search for MIAs.

First of all, I think it's a great adventure that Ivan is experiencing in his quest to find the allusive site of the alleged massacre.  Mysteries are always fun and I hope he continues to pursue it.  That said, I would like to mention something about the casualty category entitled "missing".  The numbers quoted in this category are most always vastly overstated when calculated immediately after a battle.  Once a fight is concluded, the troops muster and roll is called.  Any members of the unit not accounted for are recorded as being "missing".  This number was always overstated because of the numbers of soldiers that deserted, got lost or separated from their units, retreated with a unit different than their own, or became stragglers, common after a battle.  Many of the missing troops eventually reunited with their units, but the battle casualty reports were almost never amended to reflect that fact.  Some missing soldiers were actually killed but not accounted for, and of course, captured. 

the battle of olustee * fla --has a about a 10% MIA rate for union troops ( 506 were counted as mia -- out of about 5,000 / 5500)--many of them black infantry troopers * --( it was noted in the records ( diary remarks) of those that were there fighting that day ) that at least one confederate calvary commander told his troops as they went into battle in olustee that he would not be taking black prisoners.

comparing the POW numbers and reported dead number of union soldiers by the confederates (who controlled the battle feild afterward ) --with the unions reports of known dead and MIA ---still leaves a "gap" of about 188 men unaccounted for. -- these 30 to 50 men might be part of that 188 .

the event is said to have occured at the  OLD  civil war era farm owned by the higginbotham / higgenbotham family in the rough general area of where modern GARDEN and JONES roads intersect AT * --- I have phyiscally went there -- upon turning off garden onto jones (a "T" shaped junction with the long leg being jones ) there is a huge undeveloped treeless open feild farm type area --were cattle are being raised at today -- it would very easy to see it as a "horse pasture"  grazing area of long ago -- due to it massive size -- and posted signs all over it -- finding the owner and getting the ok to look about might be hard *these days ---- most land records of who owned what land during civil war times in this area got wiped out in the great jacksonville fire of 1901 -- not helping me in my search to locate exactly where  the old farm / homestead was at thus making matters much harder-- the roads name I find very interesting however --roads are often named for or by those who live on it, --  JONES road -- note the higginbotham / higgenbotham  family --after the war married with the JONES--and the BRADDOCKS a lot -- folks tended to marry next door neighbors and other "close by" freinds of the family  ( note most all the"post war" marrying  of the higginbotham / higgenbotham family  was with other families from company B --1st florida calvary) --you tended to marry who you knew -- and you knew the "neighbors"

"-- I hope to attempt to find their remains ( if I can get land owner ok) and have them properly honored if I can




Unselfish and honorable.  Kudos.      HHHH

just bits of info bouncing about --  however jones road does connect down a the road a bit with the current "rails to trails" bike / hiking path -- that bike / hiking path was laid down on the old civil war era railroad bed that ran from baldwin to jacksonville * --a well known and documented * retreat route that union forces took while returnibg from olustee *** it is possibvle that union forces retreating down the track as stragglers were caught up with by confederate calvary --and fled up jones road trying to get away from them. --- I have phyiscally went to the intersection of jones road and where the old rail bed was -they do connect .-- I'm thinking that it MIGHT be the route they took while fleeing. 

As far as documentation goes....My main interest is in the Seminole Wars, and in my research, I have found a couple of period maps that show a reboubt, that was later indicated as a battle, just about three miles from my house.  I have been able to find ZERO documentation on any of it!  And I have about thirty books (period and modern) and twenty cd's full of research.

I don't know how the Official Records were recorded....Just the Union's version, or later, through interviews with Confederates?

at the battle of olustee  web sight --the story as told by a actual person who took part in the battle * lawrance jackson * -- part of the confederate calvary forces -- states that he came upon to the town of baldwin which was set afire by retreating black union troops that had left in wagons about 1/2 hour earlier anmd thatthey chased to catch them and did so --in his account the union soldier surrendered and the confedrates had a fine meal using the goods in the wagon at "harts" farm ( althought the dates are a bit fuzzty in the old mans mind --since the story was recorded a few weeks before he died in 1929 (65 years after the events took place) --it is the story its self that is of the main interest --it shows that some of the leading confederate calvary troops did in fact catch up with the rear units of the union forces as they withdraw form baldwin topwards jacksonville on the rail road line -- thus help to support my postion in this matter --who better to know than those who were there as to what really occurred?

letter dated of march 3rd .1864 by a.j. clement  Co. D independant battalion mass calvary -- on march 1st a man was killed (shot in the head ) during skirmishing at 10 mile station on the highway between jaclsonville and baldwin -

there was constant "small unit" type  fighting , before , during and after the run up to olustee --- around the baldwin to jacklsonville area --as this was a hotly contested area always -- the rebels sought to keep the yankees bottled up in jacksonville  and the yankees sought to do search and take or destroy raids upon the rebels forces and places where supplies were stored.

 Ivan ,
  The largest action during CW in my area was by "Grumble" Jones and gets few sentences in any journal . Little is said about how he stole
a thousand horses and fifteen hundred cattle from our impoverished region and drove them back through the mountains eastward for the benefit of R.E. Lee ......
 Much less is documented of the pillaging his troops perpetrated in the region while stealing the livestock and the people they killed .
 I hope you continue your quest and will help if I can .
 Jim

you very miss the very point I'm trying to make *--which is very simple -- the union forces fleeing from the rebel troops at olustee (which was a very bad defeat) did so by marching thru out the night and the retreat was somewhat disorganized --- when the union troops got into baldwin they looted all the supplies they could from the town (which was well known to be southern freindly at the time )--and they set fiye to the rail road buildings and known southern supporters homes and bussiness as they left town (standard operating policy in these parts)

most of the confederate calvary did not chase after the union troops  right after the battle since night was falling -- and telegraph wires had been strung up in the woods as booty traps -- in the darkness it was hard to tell freind from foes ( thus a "freindly" fire type event could happen)-- and they feared ambushes from rear guard units of the union forces protecting the rear

only a couple of companys of calvary were dispatched * "to strike a favorible blow whenever possible"-- the vast majority of the confederate calvary  thus missed a chance to strike a telling blow to the retreating union forces --(  A MAJOR BLUNDER FOR WHICH THERE WAS A LOT OF LOOKING INTO DONE)

the retreating union forces retired down the rail line running from baldwin toward  jacksonville --its known today as "the rails to trails" bike way / hiking trail --the old rail bed was pulled up and paved over .  but the route is well known and thus easy to "follow"--

 the following morning after the battle of olustee was over --- the confederate calvary leaders were read the "riot" act by finegan and told to get after the union forces, from the personal account of  lawrance jackson --it appears some of the confederate calvary forces did indeed catch up with the rear guard units or stragglers as they were fleeing towards jacksonville * ( in his "personal" account (he was there after all)--the union soldiers surrendered and the rebels had a fine breakfast from supplies in the union wagon at harts farm -- a few miles outside of jacksonville )--it is not unreasonible in my veiw to think that fast moving calvary units -- could catch up with tired foot soldiers that had been marched all night after a rough battle 

as far as records go please think carefully -- if a small union unit of black soldiers became "detached" from the main body of the union army army upon them leaving the battlefeild of olustee ( they they were "stragglers" and they were later caught up with by confederate forces and wiped totally out  ---who in the main army would "know" of it -- since they had lost all contact and no one lived to "report" what occured.

like a ship going down with all hands --there is no one left to tell the tale of what happened;

except the rebel calvarymen who wiped the black soldiers out and burnt the bodies afterwards that is -- not a "pround" moment in southern history -- so its unlikely to be recorded .by the doers
mai li was most likely not "well recorded" at the time until some one told of what occured --then it was very well recorded .indeed.   

[not a "pround" moment in southern history -- so its unlikely to be recorded .by the doersmai li was most likely not "well recorded" at the time until some one told of what occured -]

you very miss the very point I'm trying to make *--which is very simple -- the union forces fleeing from the rebel troops at olustee (which was a very bad defeat) did so by marching thru out the night and the retreat was somewhat disorganized --- when the union troops got into baldwin they looted all the supplies they could from the town (which was well known to be southern freindly at the time )--and they set fiye to the rail road buildings and known southern supporters homes and bussiness as they left town (standard operating policy in these parts)

most of the confederate calvary did not chase after the union troops  right after the battle since night was falling -- and telegraph wires had been strung up in the woods as booty traps -- in the darkness it was hard to tell freind from foes ( thus a "freindly" fire type event could happen)-- and they feared ambushes from rear guard units of the union forces protecting the rear

only a couple of companys of calvary were dispatched * "to strike a favorible blow whenever possible"-- the vast majority of the confederate calvary  thus missed a chance to strike a telling blow to the retreating union forces --(  A MAJOR BLUNDER FOR WHICH THERE WAS A LOT OF LOOKING INTO DONE)

the retreating union forces retired down the rail line running from baldwin toward  jacksonville --its known today as "the rails to trails" bike way / hiking trail --the old rail bed was pulled up and paved over .  but the route is well known and thus easy to "follow"--

 the following morning after the battle of olustee was over --- the confederate calvary leaders were read the "riot" act by finegan and told to get after the union forces, from the personal account of  lawrance jackson --it appears some of the confederate calvary forces did indeed catch up with the rear guard units or stragglers as they were fleeing towards jacksonville * ( in his "personal" account (he was there after all)--the union soldiers surrendered and the rebels had a fine breakfast from supplies in the union wagon at harts farm -- a few miles outside of jacksonville )--it is not unreasonible in my veiw to think that fast moving calvary units -- could catch up with tired foot soldiers that had been marched all night after a rough battle 

as far as records go please think carefully -- if a small union unit of black soldiers became "detached" from the main body of the union army army upon them leaving the battlefeild of olustee ( they they were "stragglers" and they were later caught up with by confederate forces and wiped totally out  ---who in the main army would "know" of it -- since they had lost all contact and no one lived to "report" what occured.

like a ship going down with all hands --there is no one left to tell the tale of what happened;

except the rebel calvarymen who wiped the black soldiers out and burnt the bodies afterwards that is -- not a "pround" moment in southern history -- so its unlikely to be recorded .by the doers
mai li was most likely not "well recorded" at the time until some one told of what occured --then it was very well recorded .indeed.   

"except the rebel calvarymen who wiped the black soldiers out and burnt the bodies afterwards that is -- not a "pround" moment in southern history -- so its unlikely to be recorded .by the doers
mai li was most likely not "well recorded" at the time until some one told of what occured --then it was very well recorded indeed."   

This is a pretty condemning statement to make when based only on conjecture and 150-years after the fact hearsay, not known facts.

no just saying that the burning of the bodies would be a very good reason not to record the event in the "normal" battle report type mode -- bad things done out of spite or hate are seldom recorded by those doing the deed -- to the southern calvary mens credit --according to the tale they DID offer to allow the black union soldiers a chance to surrender safely upon the rebel troopers word of honor --not given likely in those days --the black infantry troopers reply  deeply insulted the calvary men --saying your word of honor is worthless to us , we shall not SURRENDER------SO BE IT --SAID THE CALVARY MEN --  wiping them out -- for the insult to their honor they burnt the bodies rather than bury them as would be normally done. ---- at the time most southerners viewed union black soldiers  merely as revolting southern slaves dressed in union uniforms and treated them accordingly .

the area around the spot  this action is reported to have occured at is on the "Higginborham / Higgenbotham" farm along "jones" road *-- look on the confederate roster of company B of the florida 1st calvary in the civil war -- the "Jones" and the "Higgenbothams" are both listed as being in the unit ( parts of the Braddock family as well)-- thus if there these " union troops" were in the area they were in very "unfreindly territory" indeed--- this was not in main downtown jacksonville area were the pro union folks lived --this was the pro southern surrounding country side.

camp milton was a confederate camp at the time

swt -- stop and think for a minute --you say 1 officer and  30 to 50 men could not possibly  be "missing " and thus unaccounted for --- but according to the all important "records" of the union 506 of their were "missing" in action
 ---now granted a good bit of the "missing in action"  were in fact "prisoners"  taken by the rebels --- but until the union commanders were told by the rebel commanders that they were indeed "captured" and taken  X amount of people prisoner --the union  commanders had no clue of what really became of their troops now did they ? --they had no way of knowing if they were dead , prisoner or what until they were told by the confederate side--- now just for the sake of arguement ---**** what if a horrible deed had occured say they  just marched off and shot say 30 to 50  black soldiers and buried the bodies after the barrle of olustee *** do you think the southerners would have been foolish enough to have recorded it being done ? -- and so the southern folks fearing counter measures would cover it up by just not reporting upon them at all (they would have just "dissappeared" into the gray fog of battle)-- how would the union commanders know about to record it? and of course the rebels surely would not have recorded it happening-- since it would be a war crime after all -- some things due to their highly ugly nature just were not "offically" recorded nicely like normal events were in my view.

if the two sides offical records "account for everyone so tightly" --where are the "missing men" ---since  the numbers reported as taken prisoner and dead &  buried by the confederates  vs the number of known dead and mia by union forces leaves a very large gap of true MIA men

I 'm just trying to find some of the honestly MIA men from the battle of olustee or possibly around that rough general time frame  , a old "deep dark family tale  was told to me that has enough elements of historically valid people who lived in the area at the time of the civil war to be possible in my veiw--that could account for some of those missing men from olustee -- agreed its  a odd and ugly story told by a older male family member who is by blood related to several former confederate calvarymen (so he is highly unlikely to want to smear the rebel cause troops honor without good reason --since the family is proud of the family's past military service with the south ) plus its said that the "event" occured upon their old family homestread during the civil war -- it might not have been a whole unit as such but a mixed lot of say 30 to 50 various stragglers in the tail of the column -- while I got a rough ideal of the area where things were supposed to have occured --and have been there in person--(most of the area is still farm land thankfully it seems -- the area is vast and without loand deeds to show which spot belonged to who -- its a near impossible task -- I'm hoping that the eldest member of the family can be of some help in knowing just which bit of land was the families "horse" farm  at the time .

I speak ill of no one -- I do not judge the past actions of the southern troops--   according to the story as told to me ----safe terms of surrender were offered by the southern force to the union troops and were rejected by the union troops in a highly insulting method -- so if the southerners got a enemy force "pinned in" that refuses to surrender they are forced to wipe em out --no choice in the matter really -- and the act of insullting the rebel troopers "word of honor" and most likely harming or killing some of the rebels - in what they would view as  the "needless"  fighting that occured after terms were already offered --thus causing needless bloodshed in the veiw of the rebels which would most likely have enraged them -- leading to the burning of the already dead bodies -- in spite .

I can see some rather odd and somewhat twisted logic in your reply * knowing the times --losing a batch of badly needed horses to black union troopers would be rather "embarassing" to the southern soldiers (agreed ) so a revenge tale as as a sort of cover story for the shame was "brewed" up to "cover the loss"--- if some one brought up the "lost horses" the talk was shifted to the tale of the  "dead union soldiers" is your veiw point -- ok I can deal with you thinking that.

Ivan...any news or information from the county historians (for example)?  Often this stuff is buried in a "box in the back" and a few others have heard the rumors, or read about it someplace. 

Have you been back to chat with the guy who told you in the first place to learn more of clearify?

well theres a ray of possible hope * --seems that elijah higginbotham born 1790 --died in  June 4th 1868 in nassau county ,florida leaving his land holdings to his wife who he married in gorgia in 1810  (the former anna hodges) who when she died on July 11th,1874  --in her will stated  the land was to be spilt equally amoung the hiers .--- source --the will of Anna Hodges Higginbotham *

jean mizell --- daughter of helen hodges *  (thus kin to anna hodges down the line by blood) now to hunt down the will and see if it spells out the land areas!!

some of the jones and the higginbotham were married together ( the  family history notes that fact) ---seems both families were quite close * --- the civil war unit rosters of 1st florida calvary  company "B" list Bourbon S , James H and Madison HIGGENBOTHAM (  note it should be HIGGINBOTHOM *) as these men were the brothers of Elijah Higginbotham . ---Madison was wounded at chickamauga * according to the records and family history as well.

there were also 7 jones listed as well * in company "B"

 you are correct that the original Elijah Higginbotham spanish grant was along the st marys river * however there could have been some of his horse on the jones land or he might have bought or leased a bit of land from them at a later date  ( with the area being named "jones road " --most likely the "jones" were the original land grant or major land owner in the area)

Ivan - 

How am I suppossed to read " * ". 

Is that a pause?

 * as a pause or when I pointing out something of importance --- kinda of a quirk I got to high light the important items

* as a pause or when I pointing out something of importance --- kinda of a quirk I got to high light the important items

Thanks... gotcha.   

Hi Ivan
Have enjoyed reading yours and everyone Else's research. I have a couple questions for you and some ideas you may want to investigate.
From the many scattered engagements we research in my area it is plausible that the remains were buried in a mass grave.It is not uncommon for the general population to bury the dead after such massacres. We have many graves marked like:  unknown 21 confederate soldiers and everyone buried in a mass grave. If the bodies were burned then I am sure that's were they are. Your intentions seem good so I would recommend using a grave probe. Also see what google earth shows. It may have only been marked by a pile of stones. Even that could be gone now though. Find the fire and the grave will be close by.
I am sure you are looking for burnt charcoal and metal detecting for signs of engagement.
 Its true thousands of men just disappeared into the darkness to find their way home and many were also buried along creeks and rail roads. Some locals were putting in a garden not long ago and hit a shallow burial of a soldier on Missionary ridge.
 A grave of 21 soldiers unburned still has a hump on it today. Burned probably  not but a probe will show the hollow disturbed soil.
 Good luck sound like a lot of lead to be found in the area.
TnMountains

I'm working on it - however its a very tough nut to crack this one , but it will be well worth the effort if found . -- nothing of importance comes easy it seems.

Good Luck Ivan,

I wish you every success in this important quest.

GG~

just taking a breath ---  now the "*0" is to note something of importance -- it a sort of short hand I use --didn't stop to think other folks don't get it 

stalled right now --got to find and talk to some very old folks that might have some old family records --wills and land deeds --that could norrow the exact site down -- this type of research is a lot of work --but if true well worth the effort .