found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

tag, very interesting thread

July 17, 1864 A detachment of Federal cavalry occupy Callahan in Duval County and burned two rail cars loaded with iron. They also arrest Wingate Broward and Joseph Hagans, while confiscating a number of horses and heads of cattle.


http://www.flahistory.net/july_18611865.htm


In the OR

Start at page 411

http://books.google.com/books?id=_cE9AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA413&dq=union+raid,+callahan,+on+July+17th,1864,+florida#v=onepage&q=&f=false

note the man who told me the story his last name is "Higginbotham"in the book --"confederate military history" as edited by Gen Clement A. Evans -- volume 11 Texas and Florida * --- in the florida section --written by Col. JJ Dickison -- it was noted that during the union raid  that occured on July 17th,1864 (thus well after the battle of Olustee)  Major Fox and 100 black foot soldiers and 125 calvary troops took the horses of ELIJAH HIGGINBOTHAM  -- this man is the direct in line blood kin of said story teller * his farm was a rest area for confederate horses that need to rest and rebuild their strengh --his job was to take care of the horses

Thank you for following up on your tip. With this intel we can see the family secrets to be false. No dead bodies piled up and burnt in a act of revenge. However, with the large amount of troop movement in that area, it would be a stellar area to metal detect. Good luck!

[Nowhere in the history of the Civil War will you find one side or the other burned the bodies of dead soldiers.]

Oh good grief, Ivan. There are scads of documentation surrounding the Battle of Olustee, the aftermath of the battle and even the retreat of the Union back to Jacksonville. Somebody told you a story about some colored troops that were out gunned...killed and then the bodies burned as revenge. These dots do not connect. Nowhere in the history of the Civil War will you find one side or the other burned the bodies of dead soldiers.
You cannot twist/spin real historical facts to fit folklore.  

Harper's Weekly, (30th April, 1864)

     We give on page 284 a sketch of the horrible Massacre at Fort Pillow. The annals of savage warfare nowhere record a more inhuman, fiendish butchery than this, perpetrated by the representatives of the “superior civilization” of the States in rebellion. It can not be wondered at that our officers and soldiers in the West are determined to avenge, at all opportunities, the cold-blooded murder of their comrades; and yet we can but contemplate with pain the savage practices which rebel inhumanity thus forces upon the service. The account of the massacre as telegraphed from Cairo is as follows:



     On the 12th April, the rebel General Forrest appeared before Fort Pillow, near Columbus, Kentucky, attacking it with considerable vehemence. This was followed up by frequent demands for its surrender, which were refused by Major Booth, who commanded the fort. The fight was then continued up until 3 p.m., when Major Booth was killed, and the rebels, in large numbers, swarmed over the intrenchments. Up to that time comparatively few of our men had been killed; but immediately upon occupying the place the rebels commenced an indiscriminate butchery of the whites and blacks, including the wounded. Both white and black were bayoneted, shot, or sabred; even dead bodies were horribly mutilated, and children of seven and eight years, and several negro women killed in cold blood. Soldiers unable to speak from wounds were shot dead, and their bodies rolled down the banks into the river. The dead and wounded negroes were piled in heaps and burned, and several citizens, who had joined our forces for protection, were killed or wounded. Out of the garrison of six hundred only two hundred remained alive. Three hundred of those massacred were negroes; five were buried alive. Six guns were captured by the rebels, and carried off, including tow 10-pound Parrotts, and two 12-pound howitzers. A large amount of stores was destroyed or carried away.

http://mac110.assumption.edu/aas/Reports/harpftpillow.html

     I don't know how accurate the Harpers Weekly was in it's reporting but it appears that there is written records of black troops bodies being burned by Confederate soldiers.

Charlie

 I'm on your side . Go for it !
 Jim

Very controversial issues at Fort Pillow. I believe the media over exaggerated these issues.

To quote General Sherman as he burned the South..."I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell. "

Another quote from Sherman, in regards to the media: "I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. "

More on Fort Pillow, including reports for the OR

http://www.civilwarhome.com/ftpillow.htm

     I agree it was/is controversial, here is another link to several official reports.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/learning.htm

I have read through about 1/2 of them and so far no mention of burning the dead bodies of soldiers but there is no doubt in my mind that it was a horrendous fight with questionable tactics.

Charlie

     My point is that the story Ivan heard could very possibly have some truth to it. I don't know whether I want him to find it or not, what a horrible thing to see even after 150 years.

Charlie

    
http://www.civilwarhome.com/learning.htm


     In conclusion, it may not be altogether improper to state that I was one of the number wounded, at first considered mortally, after the surrender; and but. for the aid soon afterward extended to me by a Confederate captain, who was a member of an order to which I belong (Free Masonry), I would in all probability have shared the fate of many of my comrades who were murdered after having been wounded. This captain had me carried into a small shanty, where he gave me some brandy and water. He was soon ordered to his company, and I was carried by the rebels into the barracks which they had occupied during the most of the engagement. Here had been collected a great number of our wounded, some of whom had already died. Early the next morning these barracks were set on fire by order of a rebel officer, who had been informed that they contained Federal wounded. I was rendered entirely helpless from the nature of my wound, the ball having entered my right side, and ranging downward, grazed my lung. and deeply imbedded itself in my nip (where it still remains) out of easy reach of surgical instruments. In this condition I had almost given up every hope of being saved from a horrible death, when one of my own men, who was less severely wounded than myself, succeeded m drawing me out of the building, which the flames were then rapidly consuming.
        As to the course our Government should pursue in regard to the outrages perpetrated by the rebels on this as well as on a number of occasions during the existing rebellion, I have only to express my belief that some sort of retaliation should be adopted as the surest method of preventing a recurrence of the fiendish barbarities practiced on the defenders of our flag at Fort Pillow.

I am, sir, very respectfully, your obedient servant.
MACK J. LEAMING,
Lieut. and Adjt. 14th Tennessee Vol. Cav., late 13th Regt.

I guess it was mentioned in an official report

for what "rough info" I 've been able to gather * the" event" appears to have occured after the battle of Olustee ( feb of 1864) as the union troops were retreating toward baldwin / jacksonville area during the night from the battle of Olustee in disarray -- a small detachment ( 30 to 50  black infantry soldiers) got lost or forced away from the main body of the union retreat * --and got trapped and "pinned down" (on or very near the Elijah Higginbotham farm) by confederate calvary after being unwilling to surrender when asked to several times  by them ( of course after seeing the type of treatment given other black troops at the battle of Olustee who had tried to "surrender or were left wounded on the feild"-- this is quite understandible)

 SWR ---the point of posting the info on the "later" callahan raid that occured July 17th of 1864 (is not to "disprove the story" but rather bloster it) its was posted only to link the fact that the man who told me the story had direct family links to the area in question and that the union"raided" the horses of his  kinfolk ( Elijah Higginbotham * was a confederate supplier of horses and also his farm was a rest and rehab farm for them a well)- it is at the old "Elijah Higginbotham" farm where the event is said too have occured at *

why would a man who is proud of his family southern military service (and he is)with several kinfolk in both sides of his blood line in the confederate army  --    tell such a horrible tale upon fellow confederate troopers of doing such a horrorible deed? ---this would be unthinkible in my veiw---- unless of course its true and offended the families sense of "honor" and justice. -- while war is war --some things just aren't right --to kill a enemy in battle is one thing  -- however mistreat their bodies afterwards --is not honorible in most everyones view.

Go with your gut, Ivan.  And good luck.  If you assemble a team to hunt your location, I'd be honored to join in (I'm in Orlando with lots of free time).
Don't fear the naysayers - just imagine where we would be if we only believed in "written accounts" of anything. 

well currently I trying to nail down a more exact location of the old "Elijah Hogginbotham"* farm site during the civil war era -- while I have a "general area" --its vast-- way too big to hunt and get oks for  -- I need to refine the area much more to be able to what I view is a real shot at finding the location ---normal land records are not going to be much help in this case --the great jacksonville. fla fire of 1901 wiped up most land deed records before then making checking up on it by old land deeds impossible --so I going to have to depend on old "grumpy" Higginbotham -- the old family "memory keeper" as  the man who told me the story calls em --he said he would ask him what if anything he can remember related to this "story" --the guys older than dirt I understand .

why would a man who is proud of his family southern military service (and he is)with several kinfolk in both sides of his blood line in the confederate army  --    tell such a horrible tale upon fellow confederate troopers of doing such a horrorible deed? ---this would be unthinkible in my veiw---- unless of course its true and offended the families sense of "honor" and justice. -- while war is war --some things just aren't right --to kill a enemy in battle is one thing  -- however mistreat their bodies afterwards --is not honorible in most everyones view.

I stopped trying to figure out the "why would" years ago, and let the physical evidence speak for itself.

At this point, with the information given, I am very satisfied the folklore/rumor you are trying to validate is but a fantastic tale of an event that never happened. However, as mentioned before, please continue with your research, have fun and good luck!

everyone is entitled to their own view point *-- right or wrong -- in anothers eyes --I think the story has a good possibility of being true --you do not -- so it is very clear to me that we have "polar opposite" veiw points --- sort of like + and - , yes and no , light and dark.

fine exsample -- I find  a historical referance to "elijah higginbotham" -- the mans kin who was a confederate horse farmer that ran a " horse holding and rehab" place for the local confederate calvary units mounts upon the family farm ( and upon whos farm the  earlier "event" * was said to occur around the time of the retreat from the battle of Olustee in feb of 1864) --whos farm was later raided and who's horses were taken by union troops ( the july 17th 1864 raid upon callahan) you grab this bit of info on the raid of july 17th ,1864 saying --yep that proves the earlier "event" did not occur -- where I veiw this as backing up the mans story . -- #1that his kins men was indeed backing the southern cause #2 --did have a horse farm #3 was logically therefore supplying mounts to local confederate calvary forces #4  of which there were 3 cousins in service -- in 1st florida calvary company B -- (3 men all "higgenbotham") the family has two "branches" --higginbotham and higgenbotham --spelt both ways but all kinfolk .-- I see these facts as a + you as a - each to their on veiw point.

yes I will check as far into this as I can * -- the story if true needs to be solved .
and I can not for the life of me think of why a man whos family background has several confederate calvary soldiers in it (elijah higginbotham , 3 other higgenbothams , several braddock and jone thru later post war marriages-- note these kin folk are all listed in the documented civil war musters of the 1st florida calvary unit availible online.)  which hes very proud of -- why would he  tell such a dark and ugly and shameful tale about other confederate calvary troops doing such a deed.-- unless there is some basis of truth in it. --
but as I say thats just MY point of veiw.

 

 

I see these facts as a + you as a - each to their on veiw point.

Facts are facts, on that we both agree. However...when you start trying to connect those facts to a fictional story, or twist/spin them to an unrelated incident... they are no longer facts. Losing a white Officer and 30 or 50 soldiers would be significant enough to require documentation. Such as when Major Fox was killed just a short time later in Gainsville.

If the story is true..then yes, it needs to be solved. So far, the only basis of truth is some horses where taken. Maybe the story being told is a family revenge story, I don't know

...I believe the media over exaggerated these issues.
...

This is a HUGE problem when doing research.  Lots of things made it into the media, blowing things way out of proportion all for the sake of selling more prints. 

the documentation that you ask for is in the records * ---the union records show 506 union soldiers * MIA ---while gen finegan battle report of feb 26th , 1864 **only accounts for 418 union wounded taken prisoner --- a differance of 88 men still MIA unaccounted for * these man could easily be the 30 to 50 man group in the story --finegan speaks of a rapid and disorderly retreat during the night by union troops toward jacksonville --exactly the type of thing that could lead to a small band being lost or cut off from the main body during the night.

** finegans report  of feb 26th , 1864 -- source -- the war of the rebellion -a compilation of the records of the union and confederate armies , series I , part 1 --pages 308 - 330

of the unwillingness of the small band to surrender due to fears of being killed * -- see the sept 25th letter by union gen  E A Hitchcock- --the small number of black union prisoners taken was highly noticible* as it is well known many black wounded were left on the feild * -- the fact had came to light that ga regulars and vollenteers of colquitt's brigade went on the feild killing wounded colored soldiers. -- his letter urges that the matter be"looked into" since several of the members of that command were taken as prisoners.

worthy of note : in colquitts report of the battle * dated feb 26th , 1864 --it was noted that he instructed his calvary to "close follow " the retreating union forces and take every opportunity to strike a favorible blow * -- ----(Ie dog em and kill em if given the chance )-- since it was  men under "colquitts's" command  who were the ones blamed for the killing of the wounded black troops on the feild at Olustee *(there was a bad shortage of confederate medical supplies at the time and they wanted to insure it was used for white confederate wounded soldiers so they shot the black wounded union soldiers rather than see them get treated using up "their"confederate  medical supplies -that and rasist hate of the north using their former "slaves" to beat the south enraged the southern troops)-the large numbers of wounded soldiers over whelmed  all the local hospitals --- with that commands past misdeeds in mind similar behavior from his calvary troops would not be suprizing if they caught up with a small deteachment that refused to surrender.

the documentation that you ask for is in the records * ---the union records show 506 union soldiers * MIA ---while gen finegan battle report of feb 26th , 1864 **only accounts for 418 union wounded taken prisoner --- a differance of 88 men still MIA unaccounted for * these man could easily be the 30 to 50 man group in the story --finegan speaks of a rapid and disorderly retreat during the night by union troops toward jacksonville --exactly the type of thing that could lead to a small band being lost or cut off from the main body during the night.

** finegans report  of feb 26th , 1864 -- source -- the war of the rebellion -a compilation of the records of the union and confederate armies , series I , part 1 --pages 308 - 330

of the unwillingness of the small band to surrender due to fears of being killed * -- see the sept 25th letter by union gen  E A Hitchcock- --the small number of black union prisoners taken was highly noticible* as it is well known many black wounded were left on the feild * -- the fact had came to light that ga regulars and vollenteers of colquitt's brigade went on the feild killing wounded colored soldiers. -- his letter urges that the matter be"looked into" since several of the members of that command were taken as prisoners.

worthy of note : in colquitts report of the battle * dated feb 26th , 1864 --it was noted that he instructed his calvary to "close follow " the retreating union forces and take every opportunity to strike a favorible blow * -- ----(Ie dog em and kill em if given the chance )-- since it was  men under "colquitts's" command  who were the ones blamed for the killing of the wounded black troops on the feild at Olustee *(there was a bad shortage of confederate medical supplies at the time and they wanted to insure it was used for white confederate wounded soldiers so they shot the black wounded union soldiers rather than see them get treated using up "their"confederate  medical supplies -that and rasist hate of the north using their former "slaves" to beat the south enraged the southern troops)-the large numbers of wounded soldiers over whelmed  all the local hospitals --- with that commands past misdeeds in mind similar behavior from his calvary troops would not be suprizing if they caught up with a small deteachment that refused to surrender.

Ok. Now we've moved back to the Battle of Olustee, and abandoned the theory of Major Fox and 30-50 of his colored infantry being slaughtered, piled and burned. Which theory do you feel is the most applicable, that will support the folklore/rumor and we can go from there? Its getting to hard to hold down so many fronts   

I never said it was major fox and his men that were killed ***-- I only used the july 17th 1864 raid to show that "elijah higginbothams" horses were taken by union troops at the time ( which was 5 months after the battle of olustee which occured in feb * the raid occured in july*) ---

the reason for refering to the "raid" at all was to note elijah higginbotham* who is the direct boold kin of the story teller ( elijah higginbotham was a confederate "horse wrangler" --his farm was used to rest and rehab wore out confederate calvary mounts)--- it was at higginbothams farm that the earlier event took place *after the battle of olustee in feb.---  info from the july 17th raid report of 5 month later shows that the union forces took horses from his farm -- thus proving he had horses at his farm backing up the family story that he was a supplier of horse to connfederate forces  --- about the story *****it appears to me that some of colquitts calvary after the battle of olustee -- which he order to follow closely the retreating union forsces and strike them--chased down a small detachment of  retreating black soldiers who got lost or broken away from the main bosy of the union forces --they refused to surrender --this enraged the calvary as several of them were hurt  / killed during the fighting after surrender was offered --so the black soldiers were totally wiped out -- also in revenge for them not surrendering as they should have and causing several needless southern injuries / deaths afterwards by restistingthe confederate calvary troops stacked and burnt their bodies.

I never said it was major fox and his men that were killed ***-- I only used the july 17th 1864 raid to show that "elijah higginbothams" horses were taken by union troops at the time ( which was 5 months after the battle of olustee which occured in feb * the raid occured in july*) ---

the reason for refering to the "raid" at all was to note elijah higginbotham* who is the direct boold kin of the story teller ( elijah higginbotham was a confederate "horse wrangler" --his farm was used to rest and rehab wore out confederate calvary mounts)--- it was at higginbothams farm that the earlier event took place *after the battle of olustee in feb.---  info from the july 17th raid report of 5 month later shows that the union forces took horses from his farm -- thus proving he had horses at his farm backing up the family story that he was a supplier of horse to connfederate forces  --- about the story *****it appears to me that some of colquitts calvary after the battle of olustee -- which he order to follow closely the retreating union forsces and strike them--chased down a small detachment of  retreating black soldiers who got lost or broken away from the main bosy of the union forces --they refused to surrender --this enraged the calvary as several of them were hurt  / killed during the fighting after surrender was offered --so the black soldiers were totally wiped out -- also in revenge for them not surrendering as they should have and causing several needless southern injuries / deaths afterwards by restistingthe confederate calvary troops stacked and burnt their bodies.

Ok, fair enough. We will work on soldiers retreating from the Battle of Olustee that somehow got lost/broke away from the main body.

Are we still going to place the alleged massacre on Higginbothom's property, somewhere off Jones Road?

yes --- elijah higginbothams "horse" farm  is the place that the "event" was reported to have occured at. -- colquitts  rebel calvary might have been headed there for "fresh mounts" or to check up on the farm as they were coming from the battle of Olustee and ran across the lost small union detachment of black infantry --or esle the confederate calvary might have broke them away from the unions main body as they retreated during the night  and hounded them into the spot on / by the farm -- no fully sure which way it happened yet  ( however since the farm is known as a confederate calvary horse supply spot and had been behind "enemy" lines when the union forces had advanced toward lake city coming out of jacksonville * going towards Olustee -- the confederate forces checking up on the farm / supply spot makes good common sense to me.)

yes --- elijah higginbothams "horse" farm  is the place that the "event" was reported to have occured at. -- colquitts  rebel calvary might have been headed there for "fresh mounts" or to check up on the farm as they were comiing from the battle of Olustee and ran across the lost small union detachment on black troopers--or esle the confederate calvary might have broke them away from the unions main body as they retreated and hounded them into the spot on / by the farm -- no fully sure yet which way it happened  ( however since the farm was a confederate calvary horse supply spot and had been behind "enemy" lines when the union forces had advanced toward lake city coming out of jacksonville * going towards Olustee -- the confederate forces checking up on the farm / supply spot makes good common sense to me.

Ok...according to the OR..Higginbothams horse farm was located across from Big Trout Creek. Below is a map from that area in 1864. Look about right?

Also...how many days do you figure the retreating troops took getting back to Jacksonville? We do know they rested at Sanderson and Barber

ok see trout creek were its marked? it turns in to a small long creek and crosses the main callahan to jacksonville road (a dark line on your map --known then as "the kings highway" the northern road out of jacksonville running towards folkston ,ga at the time  -- roughly modern us 1 's path *--- the farm was on the left hand side --  near where then area of the  small arm of trout creek  is roughly at . -- that area is where jones road meets with garden on a modern map

 if black union foot troops coming out of baldwin were cut away from the body and forced / driven  in a north east direction by colquitts confederate calvary -- they would run into the small "feeder" arms of the trout river ( around the modern--- jones / garden street  rough area on todays maps ) -- the foot soldiers could not ford these creeks without risking getting the rifles and powder wet -- thus basically making them defenseless --so they would be "pinned down" unable to cross the creeks for fear of getting wet -- all they could do was hunker down and fight --and hope and pray for union help to come along ( they were too far away from the main body for that to happen) or to somehow try to "break out" and get away --vs horse mounted confederate troops however -- there was no real hope of that happening either.

ok see trout creek were its marked? it turns in to a small long creek and crosses the main callahan to jacksonville road (a dark line on your map --known then as "the kings highway" the northern road out of jacksonville running towards folkston ,ga at the time  -- roughly modern us 1 's path *--- the farm was on the left hand side --  near where then area of the  small arm of trout creek  is roughly at . -- that area is where jones road meets with garden on a modern map

Ok...good deal. So, you basically have to go into Jacksonville to get on Kings Highway

"kings highway" aka as US1 today runs thru jacksonville --- it was a main drag type of road during the civil war era -- running northward to folkston ,ga thru several small towns in northeast florida  (callahan is one of them --callahans importance in the civil war was it was where the north / south running " kings highway road" ran across the east /west train track route that ran from fernadina to baldwin ( there was a train station and telegraph station here as well as supplies **)--- baldwin was highly important since it linked the train track route from east  (fernandina) / west (cedar key) running routes to the north( many places) / south ( jacksonville) running lines one of which ran south thru camp milton and into jacksonville proper  --

theres a triangle here -- look at the map from 1864 * callahan to jacksonville is roughly modern US 1 * --- callahan to baldwin is roughly highway 301*---- baldwin to jacksonville is roughly highway 90

theres a triangle here -- look at the map from 1864 * callahan to jacksonville is roughly modern US 1 * --- callahan to baldwin is roughly highway 301*---- baldwin to jacksonville is roughly highway 90

In your opinion, the Union patrol that got lost during the retreat from the Battle of Olustee went from Olustee...to Ceder Creek...The Big Bend of St. Mary's...Deep Creek...Lewisville...Callahan and then to Big Trout Creek? (Red outline)

Or left Olustee...to Sanderson Stations...Barber's Plantation...Baldwin...Jacksonville and then to Big Trout Creek? (Blue outline)

You also didn't reply back as to how long do you think this misadventure (trip) took them, and the possible date the event occurred.

Thanks.

SEE WHERE THE BLACK DOT IS * the two small creeks on the left are feeder arm creeks part of  "trout river" the elijah higginbotham farm was in the area by them * if you draw a line from baldwin to where the black dot is at thats thats their  direction of their route of travel once attacked but it stops at the area where the feeder creeks are at ( higginbothams farm) short of where the dots at .

their blue line "retreat route"--- I think of ran something like this  remember it was going on night fall as the retreat began --- Olustee from the battlefeild toward sanderson --- sanderson toward barbers --- barbers toward baldwin ---  right after leaving baldwin * while headed towards jacksonville however they were attacked and chased by confederate calvary off the main retreat route and driven upwards in a  North Easterly direction towards the small feeder creeks area of trout river --(where elijah higginbothams farm was at) and where they got  "pinned down" and wiped out at ---  note *** this area is close to jones and garden meet in a "T" on a modern day map ---thus these black infantry soldiers never got back to jacksonville at all --- because if they had they would have been "accounted" for in the post battle musters and not be MIA'S

 the "modern" roads I spoke of --- is to try to show on modern maps were the main drag roads were  back then .

both callahan and baldwin were important in the civil war as rail road towns --callahan be cause it was where "kings road"  running from south (jacksonville) to north (folkston,ga) crossed the train tracks that ran from fernandina (east) to to baldwin (west) as such it was important

baldwin was a major rail hub * --connecting (western) cedar key tracks to eastern running tracks callahan / fernandina) -- it also had tracks that linked southward to camp milton and into jacksonville proper ---as well as to lake city (those tracks ran right by the olustee battle site and the confederate rail gun was on them that was used in the battle )

Final Report of Brigadier General Joseph Finegan,
commanding Confederate Forces,
final report on the engagement at Olustee


HEADQUARTERS DISTRICT OF EAST FLORIDA,
In the Field, 12 miles from Jacksonville, February 26, 1864

Paragraph 8:

"I directed Brigadier-General Colquitt to continue the pursuit, intending to occupy Sanderson that night; but in deference to his suggestion of the fatigue of the troops, the absence of rations, and the disadvantages of the pursuit in the dark, and in consequence of a report from an advanced cavalry picket that the enemy had halted for the night and taken a position (which was subsequently ascertained to be incorrect), I withdrew the order. During the continuance of the battle, also after the enemy had given way, I sent repeated orders to Colonel Smith, commanding cavalry, to press the enemy on his flanks and to continue in the pursuit. But through some misapprehension these orders failed to be executed by him, and only two small companies on the left, and these but for a short distance, followed the enemy. "


Sidebar: Colonel Smith was to face an inquiry for not pursuing the Union troops

Ivan...the OR states the enemy was only followed for a short distance. Still not able to confirm any Confederate Officers or troops engaging the Union troops retreating the Battle of Olustee

ah but read what colquitt wrote on feb 26th , 1864 --- his calvary chased the for several miles but night fall brought a end to fighting --" qoute" from his report --- "instructions WERE given to the calvary to close follow the enemy and seize every opportunity to strike a favorible blow."

ah but read what colquitt wrote on feb 26th , 1864 --- his calvary chased the for several miles but night fall brought a end to fighting --" qoute" from his report --- "instructions WERE given to the calvary to close follow the enemy and seize every opportunity to strike a favorible blow."

The quote from General Finegan clearly states that instructions were given...but not followed. Hence, the inquiry to Colonel Smiths subordination

Orders given...but not followed.

It is safe to say that Colonel Smith did not make it to Big Trout Creek. Any other suggestions?

note -- I think these "lost men" might be from the 1st north carolina ( a green bunch of black infantry troops that had never saw action before ) there losses are listed as 199 enlisted and 10 officers --

according to a account recorded long after the battle on  jan 17th ,1929 * by a very old civil war vetern --lawrence jackson --confederate  2nd fla calvary company "c"

its part of the memory of a man who was there - from 2nd fla calvary company "c" - that they got to baldwin --the day after the battle at sun up -  the tail end of the union column had just left town in his account they caught up with the tail end wagons and took the troops prisoner at "harts" farm
 so there was some action that occured during the retreat * so at least some of the confederate calvary did catch up with the retreating union units * before they got back to jacksonville --might another group of confederate calvary have caught up with & chased down the missing foot soldiers if they were traveling in the rear of the column ** its possible I think**** of course due to what occured no one would say much about it, however.  ( i'm thinking they might be from the 1st north carolina group --199  & 10 officers listed as "losses") as per col james montgomery's report

[As such there are a number of inaccuracies]

note -- I think these "lost men" might be from the 1st north carolina ( a green bunch of black infantry troops that had never saw action before ) there losses are listed as 199 enlisted and 10 officers --

according to a account recorded long after the battle on  jan 17th ,1929 * by a very old civil war vetern --lawrence jackson --confederate  2nd fla calvary company "c"

its part of the memory of a man who was there - from 2nd fla calvary company "c" - that they got to baldwin --the day after the battle at sun up -  the tail end of the union column had just left town in his account they caught up with the tail end wagons and took the troops prisoner at "harts" farm
 so there was some action that occured during the retreat * so at least some of the confederate calvary did catch up with the retreating union units * before they got back to jacksonville --might another group of confederate calvary have caught up with & chased down the missing foot soldiers if they were traveling in the rear of the column ** its possible I think**** of course due to what occured no one would say much about it, however.  ( i'm thinking they might be from the 1st north carolina group --199  & 10 officers listed as "losses") as per col james montgomery's report

[Editor's note: This account was written by Lawrence Jackson 65 years after the battle. As such there are a number of inaccuracies, beginning with the date of the battle which Mr. Jackson has off by an entire year. I have reproduced the account exactly as it was written by Mr. Jackson, including spelling errors, and given to me by James M. Gray. Text in brackets [example] was added by myself to assist the reader in understanding the narrative and not to change it. - Thomas R. Fasulo]

    Our officers would cheer us to come. We would catch them soon. We overtook the last of Seamore's fleeing Army at the Hart place, seven miles from Jacksonville. They stopped and surrendered without any trouble. There we captured a very large number of the finest teams of mules and horses that I ever saw, and the wagons were all loaded with all kinds of Army supplies, provisions of every kind, also shoes, clothing and everything that an Army could use.

Thus ended the Fight at Olustee. Seamore's Army had been destroyed – all killed or captured.  (we know this isn't true. SWR)

[Editor's Note: Obviously, Mr. Jackson's "remembering" was clouded by 65 years of telling tales around the "cracker barrel." But who can blame him? Those few days were probably the most exciting and proudest of his life. For what is probably the fairest and most honest account of the Battle of Olustee, I suggest Col. Harrison's official report to his superiors. - Thomas R. Fasulo]

http://battleofolustee.org/letters/jackson.htm

I do not think Mr Jackson lends any credence to the folklore/rumor you are trying to validate.

the reason I speak of it is -two fold the confederate troopers must have chased after the union troops to be in baldwin --it was noted that 2 companies did go out after the union troops in the night --- but not all of the calvary did --there was hell to pay for that blunder ****
 I speak of this only to show that they (some of the rebel calvary forces) caught up with some of the retreating union forces between baldwin and jacksonville *  this is the point , I'm getting at . -- the old timers mind might be fuzzy as to the proper exact dates upon when it occured but his general story fits my theory of how the events of the "lost partol" might have occured.

read capt skinners report --he says he set fire to the town and left following the rail road tracks coming upon 3 rail cars one with boxes of hard bread (hard tack) on it still that they pushed 3 miles  --the confederate old timer reports that the town was burning as they came in and of them finding hard tack bread along the tracks as they chased the union troops . --the old boy wasn't totally daft it seems.

the reason I speak of it is -two fold the confederate troopers must have chased after the union troops to be in baldwin --it was noted that 2 companies did go out after the union troops in the night --- but not all of the calvary did --there was hell to pay for that blunder ****

No. The Confederate Calvary did not make it to Baldwin until the 22nd...two days after the battle. The Confederate's gave up the chase before they got to Sanderson, as darkness was falling on the 20th.

 HEADQUARTERS DISTRICT OF EAST FLORIDA,
Sanderson, February 23, 1864.

GENERAL: I had the honor to report by telegraph that the enemy had abandoned his position at Barber's place, on the Little Saint Mary's River. I pressed forward my cavalry force last night in the direction of Baldwin. I have received no report from them yet, but think that the enemy has abandoned Baldwin and retired to Jacksonville. The enemy destroyed the railroad at this place for about three-quarters of a mile, burning a portion of the iron. This delays my movements one day. I occupy Barber's place this morning with my infantry, and my cavalry are in the vicinity of Baldwin. From all that I can learn the enemy suffered severely in the late engagement and are greatly demoralized. The reports of brigade and regimental commanders are not yet in. I will forward my report as soon as those are received. I have several hundred of the enemy's wounded, white and black. I am unable to state the exact number at present, as the ambulances were still engaged in removing them from the field when I left Ocean Pond yesterday morning.

http://battleofolustee.org/reports/finegan2.htm

 I speak of this only to show that they (some of the rebel calvary forces) caught up with some of the retreating union forces between baldwin and jacksonville *  this is the point , I'm getting at . -- the old timers mind might be fuzzy as to the proper exact dates upon when it occured but his general story fits my theory of how the events of the "lost partol" might have occured.

According to all reports...both Union and Confederate...there were no engagements between Sanderson, Bladwin and Jacksonville. If you see some reports stating otherwise...I'd appreciate you pointing them out.

read capt skinners report --he says he set fire to the town and left following the rail road tracks coming upon 3 rail cars one with boxes of hard bread (hard tack) on it still that they pushed 3 miles  --the confederate old timer reports that the town was burning as they came in and of them finding hard tack bread along the tracks as they chased the union troops . --the old boy wasn't totally daft it seems.

Capt. B.F. Skinner's report only strengthens the fact there was no engagements. The confederate old timer seems as daffy as they come. The railroad building was torched by the Union...not the whole dang town.

Report of Capt. B.F. Skinner, Seventh Connecticut Volunteer Infantry, on the engagement at Olustee, Florida

http://battleofolustee.org/reports/b_skinner.htm

Wouldn't a beers map be helpful to show the location of Higginbothams farm?  It should be marked...especially if his family owned it up until at least the turn of the century...Ill see if there is one on-line

Well...how goes the search?

I was up @ Dinsmore the other day...lots of construction there at Trout Creek (Dunn Rd). Sure hope that weren't the ole Higginbotham place.

you were near the general area some what . -- upon more checking with the story teller --it seems that madison higgenbotham (sgt) and james h higgenbotham listed in 1st florida calvary company B --were "elijah higginbotham" --brothers !!! so their names are either miss spelled by the enroller or they used a varient spelling at the time , it seems that while the others went to war -- elijah was used to stay put and tend the confederates calvary horses upon the family farm -- since he was working for the confederate cause by tend the confederate horses he was in effect still in the military "offically"--( by law *all males 18 to 45 were drafted)--- however once the July 17th , 1864 raid occured the horses were gone (taken by union troops )--so he was then taken in as a regular infantry foot soldier and fought up north --being paroled in NC at wars end.

the event was supposed to have occured --as the union troops were retreating from olustee towards jacksonville * ( feb 1864)-- a detachment of confederate calvary is said to have caught up with the rear guard or stragglers --black union infantry -- they chased and pinned the down --refusing to surrender (the black union troops feared being killed if the surrendered) they were wiped out . -- the rebels had offered to allow them to surrender --but they replied your word of honor means nothing to us * thus insulting the rebels -- in return afterwards --the rebel calvarymen burnt the  union black infantrymens bodies rather than properly burying them .

I have noticed that the old civil war era rail road line ( currently called the "rails to trails" bike path ) crosses --jones road * a bit down the road -- could this be the path that they fled upon ?-- it reported that wagons were carrying wounded union soldiers * in the very rear of the retreat out off baldwin * could this be where the union soldiers came from ? and its reported that calvary troops were hot after the rear guard chasing union troops as they left baldwin ,

the event was supposed to have occured --as the union troops were retreating from olustee towards jacksonville * ( feb 1864)-- a detachment of confederate calvary is said to have caught up with the rear guard or stragglers --black union infantry -- they chased and pinned the down --refusing to surrender (the black union troops feared being killed if the surrendered) they were wiped out . -- the rebels had offered to allow them to surrender --but they replied your word of honor means nothing to us * thus insulting the rebels -- in return afterwards --the rebel calvarymen burnt the  union black infantrymens bodies rather than properly burying them .

I think this can be written off as folklore/rumor. As supported by the Official Records in the form of Officer Reports...there were no engagements by either Confederate or Union troops during or shortly after the retreat of the Battle of Olustee. Neither side reported these actions, or any actions remotely resembling the folklore/rumor.

The story gets more unbelievable with the alleged surrender offer, denial and final slaughter and burning.

Then Ivan should simply give up and forget about it. We should all cease investigating events that may or may not have happened because if it would have happened surely there would be reams of documents supporting it. Especially considering how well documented and how detailed every second of every event of the Civil War was. I mean it's only been 144 years. It is impossible to think anything took place unnoticed and off the record since we all know 19th century war was incredibly orderly. Those 500 MIA soldiers couldn't possibly have anything to do with this because they couldn't have been missing in such a manner. We should never look for MIA soldiers based on unsupported tips and leads. I mean it's just 30-50 possible MIAs.

Right?

yeah, what GL said......NGE

Then Ivan should simply give up and forget about it. We should all cease investigating events that may or may not have happened because if it would have happened surely there would be reams of documents supporting it. Especially considering how well documented and how detailed every second of every event of the Civil War was. I mean it's only been 144 years. It is impossible to think anything took place unnoticed and off the record since we all know 19th century war was incredibly orderly. Those 500 MIA soldiers couldn't possibly have anything to do with this because they couldn't have been missing in such a manner. We should never look for MIA soldiers based on unsupported tips and leads. I mean it's just 30-50 possible MIAs.

Right?

Forget about it? Certainly not!

Maybe try a different approach, rather than try to spin/twist an unrelated incident to accommodate folklore/rumors. I know your post is in a rhetorical nature...but, might you have something to add to the discussion that may benefit the thread?

At least some of us are trying to offer assistance...even if it doesn't support Ivan's dream of proving the rumor true.

It's Ivan's gig... he'll either find more information, some proof, another witness's story, or something.

Either way - it remains a story and always will I guess, now that this post exists - the perpetual electronic story.

Someday Ivan - or someone - will have to find the place where this deed was reported to have happened, or figure out that it didn't happen by accounting for those missing dudes.




I heard they hiked south and joined the Confederacy, and that's why the Union never found them.

If someone has a lead or tip, weak or otherwise, to the location of possible MIA soldiers then I feel it should be followed through and supported. There were over 500 MIAs reported in the area, this could possibly account for up to 50 of them. I think it is obviously worth checking into at the very least.
That's what I offer to this thread, support for the search for MIAs.

If someone has a lead or tip, weak or otherwise, to the location of possible MIA soldiers then I feel it should be followed through and supported. There were over 500 MIAs reported in the area, this could possibly account for up to 50 of them. I think it is obviously worth checking into at the very least.
That's what I offer to this thread, support for the search for MIAs.

First of all, I think it's a great adventure that Ivan is experiencing in his quest to find the allusive site of the alleged massacre.  Mysteries are always fun and I hope he continues to pursue it.  That said, I would like to mention something about the casualty category entitled "missing".  The numbers quoted in this category are most always vastly overstated when calculated immediately after a battle.  Once a fight is concluded, the troops muster and roll is called.  Any members of the unit not accounted for are recorded as being "missing".  This number was always overstated because of the numbers of soldiers that deserted, got lost or separated from their units, retreated with a unit different than their own, or became stragglers, common after a battle.  Many of the missing troops eventually reunited with their units, but the battle casualty reports were almost never amended to reflect that fact.  Some missing soldiers were actually killed but not accounted for, and of course, captured. 

the battle of olustee * fla --has a about a 10% MIA rate for union troops ( 506 were counted as mia -- out of about 5,000 / 5500)--many of them black infantry troopers * --( it was noted in the records ( diary remarks) of those that were there fighting that day ) that at least one confederate calvary commander told his troops as they went into battle in olustee that he would not be taking black prisoners.

comparing the POW numbers and reported dead number of union soldiers by the confederates (who controlled the battle feild afterward ) --with the unions reports of known dead and MIA ---still leaves a "gap" of about 188 men unaccounted for. -- these 30 to 50 men might be part of that 188 .

the event is said to have occured at the  OLD  civil war era farm owned by the higginbotham / higgenbotham family in the rough general area of where modern GARDEN and JONES roads intersect AT * --- I have phyiscally went there -- upon turning off garden onto jones (a "T" shaped junction with the long leg being jones ) there is a huge undeveloped treeless open feild farm type area --were cattle are being raised at today -- it would very easy to see it as a "horse pasture"  grazing area of long ago -- due to it massive size -- and posted signs all over it -- finding the owner and getting the ok to look about might be hard *these days ---- most land records of who owned what land during civil war times in this area got wiped out in the great jacksonville fire of 1901 -- not helping me in my search to locate exactly where  the old farm / homestead was at thus making matters much harder-- the roads name I find very interesting however --roads are often named for or by those who live on it, --  JONES road -- note the higginbotham / higgenbotham  family --after the war married with the JONES--and the BRADDOCKS a lot -- folks tended to marry next door neighbors and other "close by" freinds of the family  ( note most all the"post war" marrying  of the higginbotham / higgenbotham family  was with other families from company B --1st florida calvary) --you tended to marry who you knew -- and you knew the "neighbors"

"-- I hope to attempt to find their remains ( if I can get land owner ok) and have them properly honored if I can




Unselfish and honorable.  Kudos.      HHHH

the battle of olustee * fla --has a about a 10% MIA rate for union troops ( 506 were counted as mia -- out of about 5,000 / 5500)--many of them black infantry troopers * --( it was noted in the records ( diary remarks) of those that were there fighting that day ) that at least one confederate calvary commander told his troops as they went into battle in olustee that he would not be taking black prisoners.

comparing the POW numbers and reported dead number of union soldiers by the confederates (who controlled the battle feild afterward ) --with the unions reports of known dead and MIA ---still leaves a "gap" of about 188 men unaccounted for. -- these 30 to 50 men might be part of that 188 .

the event is said to have occured at the  OLD  civil war era farm owned by the higginbotham / higgenbotham family in the rough general area of where modern GARDEN and JONES roads intersect AT * --- I have phyiscally went there -- upon turning off garden onto jones (a "T" shaped junction with the long leg being jones ) there is a huge undeveloped treeless open feild farm type area --were cattle are being raised at today -- it would very easy to see it as a "horse pasture"  grazing area of long ago -- due to it massive size -- and posted signs all over it -- finding the owner and getting the ok to look about might be hard *these days ---- most land records of who owned what land during civil war times in this area got wiped out in the great jacksonville fire of 1901 -- not helping me in my search to locate exactly where  the old farm / homestead was at thus making matters much harder-- the roads name I find very interesting however --roads are often named for or by those who live on it, --  JONES road -- note the higginbotham / higgenbotham  family --after the war married with the JONES--and the BRADDOCKS a lot -- folks tended to marry next door neighbors and other "close by" freinds of the family  ( note most all the"post war" marrying  of the higginbotham / higgenbotham family  was with other families from company B --1st florida calvary) --you tended to marry who you knew -- and you knew the "neighbors"

I'm truly sorry, but this intel does not lend any credence to the "event" that allegedly took place....according to one person. Again, good luck on your quest to validate this rumor.

just bits of info bouncing about --  however jones road does connect down a the road a bit with the current "rails to trails" bike / hiking path -- that bike / hiking path was laid down on the old civil war era railroad bed that ran from baldwin to jacksonville * --a well known and documented * retreat route that union forces took while returnibg from olustee *** it is possibvle that union forces retreating down the track as stragglers were caught up with by confederate calvary --and fled up jones road trying to get away from them. --- I have phyiscally went to the intersection of jones road and where the old rail bed was -they do connect .-- I'm thinking that it MIGHT be the route they took while fleeing. 

[it is possibvle that union forces retreating down the track as stragglers were caught up with by confederate calvary]

just bits of info bouncing about --  however jones road does connect down a the road a bit with the current "rails to trails" bike / hiking path -- that bike / hiking path was laid down on the old civil war era railroad bed that ran from baldwin to jacksonville * --a well known and documented * retreat route that union forces took while returnibg from olustee *** it is possibvle that union forces retreating down the track as stragglers were caught up with by confederate calvary --and fled up jones road trying to get away from them. --- I have phyiscally went to the intersection of jones road and where the old rail bed was -they do connect .-- I'm thinking that it MIGHT be the route they took while fleeing. 

Ivan...if you feel as if that is what happened...then find a reliable reference or source that will support your theory. According to the OR...there were no engagements after the main Battle. Officer reports from both the Union and Confederates are void of any such Battle, as you claim. Your source must support your theory equally too, or as close, as the other sources that does not support your theory.

As far as documentation goes....My main interest is in the Seminole Wars, and in my research, I have found a couple of period maps that show a reboubt, that was later indicated as a battle, just about three miles from my house.  I have been able to find ZERO documentation on any of it!  And I have about thirty books (period and modern) and twenty cd's full of research.

I don't know how the Official Records were recorded....Just the Union's version, or later, through interviews with Confederates?

at the battle of olustee  web sight --the story as told by a actual person who took part in the battle * lawrance jackson * -- part of the confederate calvary forces -- states that he came upon to the town of baldwin which was set afire by retreating black union troops that had left in wagons about 1/2 hour earlier anmd thatthey chased to catch them and did so --in his account the union soldier surrendered and the confedrates had a fine meal using the goods in the wagon at "harts" farm ( althought the dates are a bit fuzzty in the old mans mind --since the story was recorded a few weeks before he died in 1929 (65 years after the events took place) --it is the story its self that is of the main interest --it shows that some of the leading confederate calvary troops did in fact catch up with the rear units of the union forces as they withdraw form baldwin topwards jacksonville on the rail road line -- thus help to support my postion in this matter --who better to know than those who were there as to what really occurred?

at the battle of olustee  web sight --the story as told by a actual person who took part in the battle * lawrance jackson * -- part of the confederate calvary forces -- states that he came upon to the town of baldwin which was set afire by retreating black union troops that had left in wagons about 1/2 hour earlier anmd thatthey chased to catch them and did so --in his account the union soldier surrendered and the confedrates had a fine meal using the goods in the wagon at "harts" farm ( althought the dates are a bit fuzzty in the old mans mind --since the story was recorded a few weeks before he died in 1929 (65 years after the events took place) --it is the story its self that is of the main interest --it shows that some of the leading confederate calvary troops did in fact catch up with the rear units of the union forces as they withdraw form baldwin topwards jacksonville on the rail road line -- thus help to support my postion in this matter --who better to know than those who were there as to what really occurred?

We've discussed the creditably of Mr. Jackson. Even the website doubts Mr. Jackson's stories.

http://battleofolustee.org/letters/jackson.htm

[Editor's Note: Obviously, Mr. Jackson's "remembering" was clouded by 65 years of telling tales around the "cracker barrel." But who can blame him? Those few days were probably the most exciting and proudest of his life. For what is probably the fairest and most honest account of the Battle of Olustee, I suggest Col. Harrison's official report to his superiors. - Thomas R. Fasulo]


Ivan...you should check out Plate 53,3 in the OR. That is the field drawing of the Battlefield. On that drawing, you will see where it is noted: "Pursuit ended here after dark"

letter dated of march 3rd .1864 by a.j. clement  Co. D independant battalion mass calvary -- on march 1st a man was killed (shot in the head ) during skirmishing at 10 mile station on the highway between jaclsonville and baldwin -

there was constant "small unit" type  fighting , before , during and after the run up to olustee --- around the baldwin to jacklsonville area --as this was a hotly contested area always -- the rebels sought to keep the yankees bottled up in jacksonville  and the yankees sought to do search and take or destroy raids upon the rebels forces and places where supplies were stored.

letter dated of march 3rd .1864 by a.j. clement  Co. D independant battalion mass calvary -- on march 1st a man was killed (shot in the head ) during skirmishing at 10 mile station on the highway between jaclsonville and baldwin -

there was constant "small unit" type  fighting , before , during and after the run up to olustee --- around the baldwin to jacklsonville area --as this was a hotly contested area always -- the rebels sought to keep the yankees bottled up in jacksonville  and the yankees sought to do search and take or destroy raids upon the rebels forces and places where supplies were stored.

Sure...see how it was documented? Thirty to fifty casualties would warrant many reports.  

Search the OR for  TROUT CREEK  and see all the activity documented

Also note the Union typically won the day around Baldwin and Jacksonville

 Ivan ,
  The largest action during CW in my area was by "Grumble" Jones and gets few sentences in any journal . Little is said about how he stole
a thousand horses and fifteen hundred cattle from our impoverished region and drove them back through the mountains eastward for the benefit of R.E. Lee ......
 Much less is documented of the pillaging his troops perpetrated in the region while stealing the livestock and the people they killed .
 I hope you continue your quest and will help if I can .
 Jim

you very miss the very point I'm trying to make *--which is very simple -- the union forces fleeing from the rebel troops at olustee (which was a very bad defeat) did so by marching thru out the night and the retreat was somewhat disorganized --- when the union troops got into baldwin they looted all the supplies they could from the town (which was well known to be southern freindly at the time )--and they set fiye to the rail road buildings and known southern supporters homes and bussiness as they left town (standard operating policy in these parts)

most of the confederate calvary did not chase after the union troops  right after the battle since night was falling -- and telegraph wires had been strung up in the woods as booty traps -- in the darkness it was hard to tell freind from foes ( thus a "freindly" fire type event could happen)-- and they feared ambushes from rear guard units of the union forces protecting the rear

only a couple of companys of calvary were dispatched * "to strike a favorible blow whenever possible"-- the vast majority of the confederate calvary  thus missed a chance to strike a telling blow to the retreating union forces --(  A MAJOR BLUNDER FOR WHICH THERE WAS A LOT OF LOOKING INTO DONE)

the retreating union forces retired down the rail line running from baldwin toward  jacksonville --its known today as "the rails to trails" bike way / hiking trail --the old rail bed was pulled up and paved over .  but the route is well known and thus easy to "follow"--

 the following morning after the battle of olustee was over --- the confederate calvary leaders were read the "riot" act by finegan and told to get after the union forces, from the personal account of  lawrance jackson --it appears some of the confederate calvary forces did indeed catch up with the rear guard units or stragglers as they were fleeing towards jacksonville * ( in his "personal" account (he was there after all)--the union soldiers surrendered and the rebels had a fine breakfast from supplies in the union wagon at harts farm -- a few miles outside of jacksonville )--it is not unreasonible in my veiw to think that fast moving calvary units -- could catch up with tired foot soldiers that had been marched all night after a rough battle 

as far as records go please think carefully -- if a small union unit of black soldiers became "detached" from the main body of the union army army upon them leaving the battlefeild of olustee ( they they were "stragglers" and they were later caught up with by confederate forces and wiped totally out  ---who in the main army would "know" of it -- since they had lost all contact and no one lived to "report" what occured.

like a ship going down with all hands --there is no one left to tell the tale of what happened;

except the rebel calvarymen who wiped the black soldiers out and burnt the bodies afterwards that is -- not a "pround" moment in southern history -- so its unlikely to be recorded .by the doers
mai li was most likely not "well recorded" at the time until some one told of what occured --then it was very well recorded .indeed.   

[not a "pround" moment in southern history -- so its unlikely to be recorded .by the doersmai li was most likely not "well recorded" at the time until some one told of what occured -]

you very miss the very point I'm trying to make *--which is very simple -- the union forces fleeing from the rebel troops at olustee (which was a very bad defeat) did so by marching thru out the night and the retreat was somewhat disorganized --- when the union troops got into baldwin they looted all the supplies they could from the town (which was well known to be southern freindly at the time )--and they set fiye to the rail road buildings and known southern supporters homes and bussiness as they left town (standard operating policy in these parts)

most of the confederate calvary did not chase after the union troops  right after the battle since night was falling -- and telegraph wires had been strung up in the woods as booty traps -- in the darkness it was hard to tell freind from foes ( thus a "freindly" fire type event could happen)-- and they feared ambushes from rear guard units of the union forces protecting the rear

only a couple of companys of calvary were dispatched * "to strike a favorible blow whenever possible"-- the vast majority of the confederate calvary  thus missed a chance to strike a telling blow to the retreating union forces --(  A MAJOR BLUNDER FOR WHICH THERE WAS A LOT OF LOOKING INTO DONE)

the retreating union forces retired down the rail line running from baldwin toward  jacksonville --its known today as "the rails to trails" bike way / hiking trail --the old rail bed was pulled up and paved over .  but the route is well known and thus easy to "follow"--

 the following morning after the battle of olustee was over --- the confederate calvary leaders were read the "riot" act by finegan and told to get after the union forces, from the personal account of  lawrance jackson --it appears some of the confederate calvary forces did indeed catch up with the rear guard units or stragglers as they were fleeing towards jacksonville * ( in his "personal" account (he was there after all)--the union soldiers surrendered and the rebels had a fine breakfast from supplies in the union wagon at harts farm -- a few miles outside of jacksonville )--it is not unreasonible in my veiw to think that fast moving calvary units -- could catch up with tired foot soldiers that had been marched all night after a rough battle 

as far as records go please think carefully -- if a small union unit of black soldiers became "detached" from the main body of the union army army upon them leaving the battlefeild of olustee ( they they were "stragglers" and they were later caught up with by confederate forces and wiped totally out  ---who in the main army would "know" of it -- since they had lost all contact and no one lived to "report" what occured.

like a ship going down with all hands --there is no one left to tell the tale of what happened;

except the rebel calvarymen who wiped the black soldiers out and burnt the bodies afterwards that is -- not a "pround" moment in southern history -- so its unlikely to be recorded .by the doers
mai li was most likely not "well recorded" at the time until some one told of what occured --then it was very well recorded .indeed.   

"except the rebel calvarymen who wiped the black soldiers out and burnt the bodies afterwards that is -- not a "pround" moment in southern history -- so its unlikely to be recorded .by the doers
mai li was most likely not "well recorded" at the time until some one told of what occured --then it was very well recorded indeed."   

This is a pretty condemning statement to make when based only on conjecture and 150-years after the fact hearsay, not known facts.

no just saying that the burning of the bodies would be a very good reason not to record the event in the "normal" battle report type mode -- bad things done out of spite or hate are seldom recorded by those doing the deed -- to the southern calvary mens credit --according to the tale they DID offer to allow the black union soldiers a chance to surrender safely upon the rebel troopers word of honor --not given likely in those days --the black infantry troopers reply  deeply insulted the calvary men --saying your word of honor is worthless to us , we shall not SURRENDER------SO BE IT --SAID THE CALVARY MEN --  wiping them out -- for the insult to their honor they burnt the bodies rather than bury them as would be normally done. ---- at the time most southerners viewed union black soldiers  merely as revolting southern slaves dressed in union uniforms and treated them accordingly .

no just saying that the burning of the bodies would be a very good reason not to record the event in the "nornmal" battle report type mode -- bad things done out of spite or hate are seldom recorded by those doing the deed -- to the southern calvary mens credit --according to the tale they DID offer to allow the black union soldiers a chance to surrender safely upon the rebel troopers word of honor --not given likely in those days --the black infantry troopers reply  deeply insulted the calvary men --saying your word of honor is worthless to us , we shall not SURRENDER------SO BE IT --SAID THE CALVARY MEN --  wiping them out -- for the insult to their honor they burnt the bodies rather than bury them as would bre normally done. ---- at the time most southerners viewed union black soldiers  merely as revolting southern slaves dressed in union uniforms and treated them accordingly .

Ivan, I cannot continue to re-post this over and over again.

There would be a record, of some nature, in regards to an engagement of this magnitude. A white Officer and 30-50 men do not just up and disappear. It would take a LARGE amount of Calvary soldiers to defeat that amount of men, with no survivors or any escapees. According to documentation, there was plenty of Federal loyalist in and around Jacksonville. An engagement of that magnitude would have drawn support from any number of sources in the area.

You cannot debate history by constantly saying "WHAT IF". 'What if' is not factual. 

the area around the spot  this action is reported to have occured at is on the "Higginborham / Higgenbotham" farm along "jones" road *-- look on the confederate roster of company B of the florida 1st calvary in the civil war -- the "Jones" and the "Higgenbothams" are both listed as being in the unit ( parts of the Braddock family as well)-- thus if there these " union troops" were in the area they were in very "unfreindly territory" indeed--- this was not in main downtown jacksonville area were the pro union folks lived --this was the pro southern surrounding country side.

the area around the spot  this action is reported to have occured at is on the "Higginborham / Higgenbotham" farm along "jones" road *-- look on the confederate roster of company B of the florida 1st calvary in the civil war -- the "Jones" and the "Higgenbothams" are both listed as being in the unit ( parts of the Braddock family as well)-- thus if there these " union troops" were in the area they were in very "unfreindly territory" indeed--- this was not in main downtown jacksonville area were the pro union folks lived --this was the pro southern surrounding country side.

Ivan...with all of the military action pertaining to the retreat from Olustee, your isolated incident is preposterous. Thousands of Union troops were active all over the area. No interstate traffic...logically...gunfire could be heard for miles around. The main encampment was just outside of Jacksonville...less than two miles from Jones Rd.

camp milton was a confederate camp at the time

swt -- stop and think for a minute --you say 1 officer and  30 to 50 men could not possibly  be "missing " and thus unaccounted for --- but according to the all important "records" of the union 506 of their were "missing" in action
 ---now granted a good bit of the "missing in action"  were in fact "prisoners"  taken by the rebels --- but until the union commanders were told by the rebel commanders that they were indeed "captured" and taken  X amount of people prisoner --the union  commanders had no clue of what really became of their troops now did they ? --they had no way of knowing if they were dead , prisoner or what until they were told by the confederate side--- now just for the sake of arguement ---**** what if a horrible deed had occured say they  just marched off and shot say 30 to 50  black soldiers and buried the bodies after the barrle of olustee *** do you think the southerners would have been foolish enough to have recorded it being done ? -- and so the southern folks fearing counter measures would cover it up by just not reporting upon them at all (they would have just "dissappeared" into the gray fog of battle)-- how would the union commanders know about to record it? and of course the rebels surely would not have recorded it happening-- since it would be a war crime after all -- some things due to their highly ugly nature just were not "offically" recorded nicely like normal events were in my view.

if the two sides offical records "account for everyone so tightly" --where are the "missing men" ---since  the numbers reported as taken prisoner and dead &  buried by the confederates  vs the number of known dead and mia by union forces leaves a very large gap of true MIA men

[BATTLE]

swt -- stop and think for a minute --you say 1 officer and  30 to 50 men could not possibly  be "missing " and thus unaccounted for --- but according to the all important "records" of the union 506 of their were "missing" in action

506 were missing in action. Captured, deserted, misplace, etc...after the BATTLE. Not just randomly missing according to folklore or rumors.

 ---now granted a good bit of the "missing in action"  were in fact "prisoners"  taken by the rebels --- but until the union commanders were told by the rebel commanders that they were indeed "captured" and taken  X amount of people prisoner --the union  commanders had no clue of what really became of their troops now did they ? --they had no way of knowing if they were dead , prisoner or what until they were told by the confederate side

Every outfit report their casualties and status after the BATTLE, which gave the accumulative number of 506

--- now just for the sake of arguement ---**** what if a horrible deed had occured say they  just marched off and shot say 30 to 50  black soldiers and buried the bodies after the barrle of olustee *** do you think the southerners would have been foolish enough to have recorded it being done ? -- and so the southern folks fearing counter measures would cover it up by just not reporting upon them at all (they would have just "dissappeared" into the gray fog of battle)-- how would the union commanders know about to record it? and of course the rebels surely would not have recorded it happening-- since it would be a war crime after all -- some things due to their highly ugly nature just were not "offically" recorded nicely like normal events were in my view.

What if...what if...what if....

Then the report would make mention that Officer such and such and his ENTIRE group/division/etc was missing/killed/captured. But, we know that did not happen with any of the US Colored Troops at the Battle of Olustee

if the two sides offical records "account for everyone so tightly" --where are the "missing men" ---since  the numbers reported as taken prisoner and dead &  buried by the confederates  vs the number of known dead and mia by union forces leaves a very large gap of true MIA men

I cannot truthfully say where the missing men from the Battle of Olustee are. Anything posted would only be speculation/hearsay/rumors and a mis-justice to those who gave their all.

I 'm just trying to find some of the honestly MIA men from the battle of olustee or possibly around that rough general time frame  , a old "deep dark family tale  was told to me that has enough elements of historically valid people who lived in the area at the time of the civil war to be possible in my veiw--that could account for some of those missing men from olustee -- agreed its  a odd and ugly story told by a older male family member who is by blood related to several former confederate calvarymen (so he is highly unlikely to want to smear the rebel cause troops honor without good reason --since the family is proud of the family's past military service with the south ) plus its said that the "event" occured upon their old family homestread during the civil war -- it might not have been a whole unit as such but a mixed lot of say 30 to 50 various stragglers in the tail of the column -- while I got a rough ideal of the area where things were supposed to have occured --and have been there in person--(most of the area is still farm land thankfully it seems -- the area is vast and without loand deeds to show which spot belonged to who -- its a near impossible task -- I'm hoping that the eldest member of the family can be of some help in knowing just which bit of land was the families "horse" farm  at the time .

I speak ill of no one -- I do not judge the past actions of the southern troops--   according to the story as told to me ----safe terms of surrender were offered by the southern force to the union troops and were rejected by the union troops in a highly insulting method -- so if the southerners got a enemy force "pinned in" that refuses to surrender they are forced to wipe em out --no choice in the matter really -- and the act of insullting the rebel troopers "word of honor" and most likely harming or killing some of the rebels - in what they would view as  the "needless"  fighting that occured after terms were already offered --thus causing needless bloodshed in the veiw of the rebels which would most likely have enraged them -- leading to the burning of the already dead bodies -- in spite .

according to the story as told to me ----safe terms of surrender were offered by the southern force to the union troops and were rejected by the union troops in a highly insulting method -- so if the southerners got a enemy force "pinned in" that refuses to surrender they are forced to wipe em out --no choice in the matter really -- and the act of insullting the rebel troopers "word of honor" and most likely harming or killing some of the rebels - in what they would view as  the "needless"  fighting that occured after terms were already offered --thus causing needless bloodshed in the veiw of the rebels which would most likely have enraged them -- leading to the burning of the already dead bodies -- in spite .

I know...I know...that's the story and you seem to believe it.

Myself...I think the story has gotten twisted over the years, to save face. The locals were probably so upset that the US Colored Troops took their horses....and there wasn't a dang thing they could do about. What if...the story was changed around because the white folks was just so dang embarrassed about the Colored Troops muscling their horses away from them...they fabricated a horrific story to hide their real shame.

I can see some rather odd and somewhat twisted logic in your reply * knowing the times --losing a batch of badly needed horses to black union troopers would be rather "embarassing" to the southern soldiers (agreed ) so a revenge tale as as a sort of cover story for the shame was "brewed" up to "cover the loss"--- if some one brought up the "lost horses" the talk was shifted to the tale of the  "dead union soldiers" is your veiw point -- ok I can deal with you thinking that.

I can see some rather odd and somewhat twisted logic in your reply * knowing the times --losing a batch of badly needed horses to black union troopers would be rather "embarassing" to the southern soldiers (agreed ) so a revenge tale as as a sort of cover story for the shame was "brewed" up to "cover the loss"--- if some one brought up the "lost horses" the talk was shifted to the tale of the  "dead union soldiers" is your veiw point -- ok I can deal with you thinking that.

Well...we know for a fact that the US Colored Troops took all of Higginbothem's  horses. What better way to hide the shame, than to make up a story about how all of the Yankees where killed and then burned on his property?

Ivan...any news or information from the county historians (for example)?  Often this stuff is buried in a "box in the back" and a few others have heard the rumors, or read about it someplace. 

Have you been back to chat with the guy who told you in the first place to learn more of clearify?

well theres a ray of possible hope * --seems that elijah higginbotham born 1790 --died in  June 4th 1868 in nassau county ,florida leaving his land holdings to his wife who he married in gorgia in 1810  (the former anna hodges) who when she died on July 11th,1874  --in her will stated  the land was to be spilt equally amoung the hiers .--- source --the will of Anna Hodges Higginbotham *

jean mizell --- daughter of helen hodges *  (thus kin to anna hodges down the line by blood) now to hunt down the will and see if it spells out the land areas!!

well theres a ray of possible hope * --seems that elijah higginbotham born 1790 --died in  June 4th 1868 in nassau county ,florida leaving his land holdings to his wife who he married in gorgia in 1810  (the former anna hodges) who when she died on July 11th,1874  --in her will stated  the land was to be spilt equally amoung the hiers .--- source --the will of Anna Hodges Higginbotham *

jean mizell --- daughter of helen hodges *  (thus kin to anna hodges down the line by blood) now to hunt down the will and see if it spells out the land areas!!

Elijah Higginbotham had a Spanish Land Grant of about 350 acres on the St. Marys River, in Nassau county. The property referred too in the OR could have simply been leased property or an encampment for the Higginbothoms. The property on Jones Road, where you believe the rumor originates from, was more than likely that of the Jones family.

some of the jones and the higginbotham were married together ( the  family history notes that fact) ---seems both families were quite close * --- the civil war unit rosters of 1st florida calvary  company "B" list Bourbon S , James H and Madison HIGGENBOTHAM (  note it should be HIGGINBOTHOM *) as these men were the brothers of Elijah Higginbotham . ---Madison was wounded at chickamauga * according to the records and family history as well.

there were also 7 jones listed as well * in company "B"

 you are correct that the original Elijah Higginbotham spanish grant was along the st marys river * however there could have been some of his horse on the jones land or he might have bought or leased a bit of land from them at a later date  ( with the area being named "jones road " --most likely the "jones" were the original land grant or major land owner in the area)

Ivan - 

How am I suppossed to read " * ". 

Is that a pause?

 * as a pause or when I pointing out something of importance --- kinda of a quirk I got to high light the important items

some of the jones and the higginbotham were married together ( the  family history notes that fact) ---seems both families were quite close * --- the civil war unit rosters of 1st florida calvary  company "B" list Bourbon S , James H and Madison HIGGENBOTHAM (  note it should be HIGGINBOTHOM *) as these men were the brothers of Elijah Higginbotham . ---Madison was wounded at chickamauga * according to the records and family history as well.

there were also 7 jones listed as well * in company "B"

 you are correct that the original Elijah Higginbotham spanish grant was along the st marys river * however there could have been some of his horse on the jones land or he might have bought or leased a bit of land from them at a later date  ( with the area being named "jones road " --most likely the "jones" were the original land grant or major land owner in the area)

Ok...that's all plausible.

However...until you come up with physical evidence of this horrific massacre...it still remains a single-source rumor.

Looking forward to further updates 

* as a pause or when I pointing out something of importance --- kinda of a quirk I got to high light the important items

Thanks... gotcha.   

Hi Ivan
Have enjoyed reading yours and everyone Else's research. I have a couple questions for you and some ideas you may want to investigate.
From the many scattered engagements we research in my area it is plausible that the remains were buried in a mass grave.It is not uncommon for the general population to bury the dead after such massacres. We have many graves marked like:  unknown 21 confederate soldiers and everyone buried in a mass grave. If the bodies were burned then I am sure that's were they are. Your intentions seem good so I would recommend using a grave probe. Also see what google earth shows. It may have only been marked by a pile of stones. Even that could be gone now though. Find the fire and the grave will be close by.
I am sure you are looking for burnt charcoal and metal detecting for signs of engagement.
 Its true thousands of men just disappeared into the darkness to find their way home and many were also buried along creeks and rail roads. Some locals were putting in a garden not long ago and hit a shallow burial of a soldier on Missionary ridge.
 A grave of 21 soldiers unburned still has a hump on it today. Burned probably  not but a probe will show the hollow disturbed soil.
 Good luck sound like a lot of lead to be found in the area.
TnMountains

I'm working on it - however its a very tough nut to crack this one , but it will be well worth the effort if found . -- nothing of importance comes easy it seems.

Good Luck Ivan,

I wish you every success in this important quest.

GG~

Ivan - 

How am I suppossed to read " * ". 

Is that a pause?

I'm still trying to figure out the "--" all the time..
 

just taking a breath ---  now the "*0" is to note something of importance -- it a sort of short hand I use --didn't stop to think other folks don't get it 

Any updates?   

stalled right now --got to find and talk to some very old folks that might have some old family records --wills and land deeds --that could norrow the exact site down -- this type of research is a lot of work --but if true well worth the effort .