Knights of the Golden Circle after the Civil War

A quick side note.  When I said I think 21 is young for a KGC big shot - that is my opinion.  I didn't say he wasn't, or could not have been.
Cheers

OK, no prob.  I hope I didn't come across as angry in my last post.  I'm just  slightly grumpy     because of some of the acrimonious exchanges going on concerning the KGC and their caches.  I think the very best example of 2 people debating information and it's sources is the one between rangler and Mr. Orablanco on one of rangler's threads.  Both of them  are extraordinarily knowledgeable on the subject they were discussing and neither EVER came across as an "I-know-what-I'm-talking-about-and-YOU-don't" snob.  They were courteous to eachother in presenting their, sometimes, differing information with supporting bibliographical info.  You never got the impression that either was playing the game of "one-upmanship".  The information that both gentlemen presented on that thread was copious and very interesting.  The thread, if you'd like to check it out is one rangler started about the Land of Ophir.  You see, his premise runs parallel to Swiftsearcher, TButch, Texas Jay, Kentucky Kache, and my ideas on the sources of the large caches hidden around the North American continent by different groups.  Perhaps you should read that thread.  I think you'll be interested. 

Oh, yeah.  SWR was very active and NEGATIVE on that thread, too.  Contesting every statement, but providing nothing substantial in return and really being a class-A...........pain.   

What was left in tact after the war war utterly destroyed during reconstruction.  There was mass poverty.  The only folks who didn't surrender were living in Mexico in poverty.  

Do you know all that for a FACT? EVERYTHING was destroyed...? EVERYONE who didn't surrender went to mexico and lived in poverty?

It is really easy to make claims or statements about things.  But you should have something to back it up that is traceable in fact.  Something besides old Houk saying they are there.  He had the maps, and he couldn't find any of it.

Lets re-examine what I said, and didn't say that you seem to think I did.

Utterly - to the fullest extent.

I did not say everything was destroyed.  I said it was utterly destroyed.  As in infrastructure, well, I guess you could say Atlanta was completely destroyed.  Reconstruction was all about ruining the South, so it could not rise again.  Not every single building and farm house was destroyed.  You are reading things in there that were not implied.  The South's ability to regroup and rebuild was utterly destroyed.

Everyone who didn't surrender went to Mexico - Armies surrender in war, and Shelby and all the others regular CSA who didn't surrender went to Mexico.  I think that is pretty well documented.

Did folks just take off their uniforms and go home - sure they did.  And while they might not have surrendered, they we also no longer part of the CSA. 

Did fighting continue in Texas after Lee surrendered - sure they did.  But they too, eventually surrendered.

When I say everyone who din't surrender went to Mexico, I thought it was self explanitory that I was talking about the CSA.

Folks like JJ and others could not surrender.  Bushwhackers were were shot or hung on sight.  Many moved to Texas, because that is where their families went during the scorched earth polices in MO.

I do hop that clears it up.  I guess it is easier to try to pick apart my post's, then answer my question.  So be it. 

What was left in tact after the war war utterly destroyed during reconstruction.  There was mass poverty.  The only folks who didn't surrender were living in Mexico in poverty.  

Do you know all that for a FACT? EVERYTHING was destroyed...? EVERYONE who didn't surrender went to mexico and lived in poverty?

It is really easy to make claims or statements about things.  But you should have something to back it up that is traceable in fact.  Something besides old Houk saying they are there.  He had the maps, and he couldn't find any of it.

Lets re-examine what I said, and didn't say that you seem to think I did.

Utterly - to the fullest extent.

I did not say everything was destroyed.  I said it was utterly destroyed.  As in infrastructure, well, I guess you could say Atlanta was completely destroyed.  Reconstruction was all about ruining the South, so it could not rise again.  Not every single building and farm house was destroyed.  You are reading things in there that were not implied.  The South's ability to regroup and rebuild was utterly destroyed.

Everyone who didn't surrender went to Mexico - Armies surrender in war, and Shelby and all the others regular CSA who didn't surrender went to Mexico.  I think that is pretty well documented.

Did folks just take off their uniforms and go home - sure they did.  And while they might not have surrendered, they we also no longer part of the CSA. 

Did fighting continue in Texas after Lee surrendered - sure they did.  But they too, eventually surrendered.

When I say everyone who din't surrender went to Mexico, I thought it was self explanitory that I was talking about the CSA.

Folks like JJ and others could not surrender.  Bushwhackers were were shot or hung on sight.  Many moved to Texas, because that is where their families went during the scorched earth polices in MO.

I do hop that clears it up.  I guess it is easier to try to pick apart my post's, then answer my question.  So be it. 

The fact remains that farmers had money they had made through slave labor, and it was A LOT of money. Did some of them go "underground?" I don't know. Listening to your argument, it sounds like they might have.

I didn't know I was supposed to answer your questions.

A quick side note.  When I said I think 21 is young for a KGC big shot - that is my opinion.  I didn't say he wasn't, or could not have been.
Cheers

OK, no prob.  I hope I didn't come across as angry in my last post.  I'm just  slightly grumpy     because of some of the acrimonious exchanges going on concerning the KGC and their caches.  I think the very best example of 2 people debating information and it's sources is the one between rangler and Mr. Orablanco on one of rangler's threads.  Both of them  are extraordinarily knowledgeable on the subject they were discussing and neither EVER came across as an "I-know-what-I'm-talking-about-and-YOU-don't" snob.  They were courteous to eachother in presenting their, sometimes, differing information with supporting bibliographical info.  You never got the impression that either was playing the game of "one-upmanship".  The information that both gentlemen presented on that thread was copious and very interesting.  The thread, if you'd like to check it out is one rangler started about the Land of Ophir.  You see, his premise runs parallel to Swiftsearcher, TButch, Texas Jay, Kentucky Kache, and my ideas on the sources of the large caches hidden around the North American continent by different groups.  Perhaps you should read that thread.  I think you'll be interested. 

Oh, yeah.  SWR was very active and NEGATIVE on that thread, too.  Contesting every statement, but providing nothing substantial in return and really being a class-A...........pain.   

No, you don't seem angry.  I'm not trying to one up anybody.

You might be surprised to know that I do think there are a lot of things hidden in North America that have been here for centuries.  I have kept up with those topics, and I find them fascinating.  And I agree, they are both very informed people.  But they too are also trying to cut to the truth.  Which is why I enjoy reading their posts.

Something about KGC - it seems to be an all or nothing deal.  If you don't believe everything - than you are a naysayer and a hater.  Civil war in general is like that - almost like discussing politics and religion - folks get real upset if you don't see things their way.

The fact remains that farmers had money they had made through slave labor, and it was A LOT of money. Did some of them go "underground?" I don't know. Listening to your argument, it sounds like they might have.

I didn't know I was supposed to answer your questions.

My question was to Texas Jay, and his statement.

One thing both sides did was loot everywhere they went.  They would take supplies, money, whatever from whoever.  If a plantation owner still had a lot money after the war, he probably buried it before the Union occupied everywhere.

If it was in Confederate money, it was worthless.  That stuff is worth more now than it ever was during the war. 

I have never said there was no money anywhere.  I would think (my opinion here) that after the war, if I had a plantation and I now only have burnt fields and no labor, I would use my money to try to rebuild my life and not give it all to the KGC, so that I would then live in abject poverty.  It took a long time and a lot of money for the South to rebuild itself.  I would think a lot of that money came from the "rich farmers".

The Union certainly wasn't helping.

I have never said there was no money anywhere.  I would think (my opinion here) that after the war, if I had a plantation and I now only have burnt fields and no labor, I would use my money to try to rebuild my life and not give it all to the KGC, so that I would then live in abject poverty.  It took a long time and a lot of money for the South to rebuild itself.  I would think a lot of that money came from the "rich farmers".

Isn't that supposed to be the aim of the KGC - rebuild the South? So if the rich farmers used their money to rebuild the South, how would that be "giving" it all to the KGC?

Here's another angle to look at the reconstruction period in the South.  There were many rich people in the southern states BEFORE the War of Northern Aggression.  You can bet that they did not change their money to Confederate paper, but kept their riches in "hard coin", instead.  After the war, they simply brought their funds back into use, slowly.  Too many people think of total desolation when they picture the South during post WNA and they're correct up to a point.  Most of the wealth was centered in the big cities such as Natchez, MS;  Mobile, AL; Montgomery, AL; St. Augustine, FL; throughout the Carolinas; and up to Richmond, VA.  The big money was not located out in the "country", but was city-bound.  That OLD money survived and don't you ever doubt that and a lot of that "old" money was collected and hidden away by believers.  What did they believe in?  Many things.  And none of those beliefs had anything to do with the government.........CSA or USA. 

Here's another angle to look at the reconstruction period in the South.  There were many rich people in the southern states BEFORE the War of Northern Aggression.  You can bet that they did not change their money to Confederate paper, but kept their riches in "hard coin", instead.  After the war, they simply brought their funds back into use, slowly.  Too many people think of total desolation when they picture the South during post WNA and they're correct up to a point.  Most of the wealth was centered in the big cities such as Natchez, MS;  Mobile, AL; Montgomery, AL; St. Augustine, FL; throughout the Carolinas; and up to Richmond, VA.  The big money was not located out in the "country", but was city-bound.  That OLD money survived and don't you ever doubt that and a lot of that "old" money was collected and hidden away by believers.  What did they believe in?  Many things.  And none of those beliefs had anything to do with the government.........CSA or USA. 

Now that I agree with 100%.  Same thing is happening today

The Union occupied the major cities for quite a while after the war, and they also kept an eye on where the money was going - so that there would be no financed uprisings.

They had a pretty heavy hand in a lot of places. 

Isn't that supposed to be the aim of the KGC - rebuild the South? So if the rich farmers used their money to rebuild the South, how would that be "giving" it all to the KGC?

I thought the aim of the KGC was at first to create the giant circle of slave states by incorporating Cuba and part of Mexico into the Confederacy.

During the war I thought they were mainly interested in creating a Northern insurrection.

After the war they seemingly weren't around in great force.   I have not heard any stories of the KGC funding the rebuilding of towns and hospitals.  Until / except for JJ was one of his names, I had never heard of any mass treasure vaults they left.

As you can see, these are my opinions, based on my study.

You might find this difficult to swallow, but unlike some others, I think the KGC were huge in numbers during the war - and I get this from the memo's of Union field commanders - they were afraid of them to a good extent.  But at the same time, every time the KGC were called upon for an armed uprising in the North, it failed miserably, or didn't happen at all.  I think one of the few exceptions was in NYC, and I think that did them more damage than good PR wise with the folks.

They did try to invade Cuba in 1850, and were repelled.  They planned to invade Mexico, and not enough men showed up at the appointed place and time, and the Union got wind of it and that didn't work out either.

Before the war, there was a lot of gold accumulated by the soon to be Confederate government, but that all went to the war effort.  I have read old newspaper accounts from 1864 that while the South was being razed, Jeff Davis and his inner group were living the high life with the treasury,money having Ships bring them special order furniture and silks and such from Europe.  I think that is where a lot of the treasury actually went.  They pissed it away living high.  What little that was left at the very end was buried there in Danville.  From what I've read, it would seem to be in a cemetery that no one will ever get a chance to dig up.

Not saying they did this, but IF the KGC did hide caches, why would they leave a record, other than signs and symbols that only trained initiates could read?

Tnwoods,  don't get hung up on that slavery angle.  Using slaves was only a means to an end BEFORE the WNA and a non-player after the war.  The only answer for the needs of large workforces on those 1,000-acre plantations were slaves.  That didn't make it RIGHT, but was, sadly, used.  If you'll read the Constitution of the Confederate States of American, you'll see that the first step to getting rid of the slavery way of life was started there as an original Article of the document.  That was about 5 years or more before the US Constitution was amended to outlaw it.

The invading of Cuba and / or Mexico sounds like the stu-pid activities of a wildcard group. 

As to what, exactly, the deposits were hidden FOR is where the debate could rightly center.  Until some of the "libraries" are recovered, we will not know for sure what their endgame plans were. 

Actually, it makes sense to me for just plain ole people to have hidden their wealth just to protect it, in common depositories. I can see the possibility either way. If I find a cache, I don't care if it was hid by KGC or grandpa Doe.

See - we agree on a lot!  Slavery was on the way out, and would have been gone likely by 1870 without the war anyway.  My point about labor was more toward the loss of manpower in general from the extremely high casualty rate in the war.  Heck, the whole darn war wasn't about slavery.

Libraries - now that is interesting.  I have been told there is a major KGC library where I am living now - and I have been trying to figure out if it is here or not for the past year.  Again, info from a friend who heard it from a friend.  So far - haven't found anything that fits the description.  Naturally, my friend didn't get directions, and I think the guy that told him has passed.

Now, to figure out where the vaults are, I would think figuring out where the money came from would help considerably.  If a bank hasn't been robbed, then there is no reason to look for the money.

The magnitude of what these vaults are said to be, it came from somewhere.  And wagons full of gold would be hard to hide from the Union - so if they are there - they would be close to where the money was obtained from, IMO.   Now if there were a lot of stories of millions going missing from banks, I would start to think the stories of the vaults would be more valid.

Actually, it makes sense to me for just plain ole people to have hidden their wealth just to protect it, in common depositories. I can see the possibility either way. If I find a cache, I don't care if it was hid by KGC or grandpa Doe.

See, now we agree too!

Not saying they did this, but IF the KGC did hide caches, why would they leave a record, other than signs and symbols that only trained initiates could read?

That is a good question.

I am not a symbol expert by any means.  And the things I have found usually perplex me...LOL  Personally, I haven't seen anything that says "I am a KGC cache".  I have read books where folks say that is what the are.  Maybe they are right, maybe they aren't.

I do think a lot of what folks say is KGC is usually something else. 

Morgon and his men were notorious for looting cities as they marched along.  And they buried it as they went, because you can't carry all that stuff and fight at the same time.  I think most of that is still missing.  But I bet if there are any clues carved out there, they would be considered KGC.

The Knights of the Golden Circle was not a part of the Confederate States of America. The Knights of the Golden Circle was a pro-slavery (anti abolitionism) organization that was created years before the Confederate States of America, and had plans of invading Cuba and Mexico.

The Knights of the Golden Circle believed it was there God given right to own slaves, and had absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution of the Confederate States of America

Also true

Personally, I haven't seen anything that says "I am a KGC cache".  I have read books where folks say that is what the are.  Maybe they are right, maybe they aren't.

Morgon and his men were notorious for looting cities as they marched along.  And they buried it as they went, because you can't carry all that stuff and fight at the same time.  I think most of that is still missing.  But I bet if there are any clues carved out there, they would be considered KGC.

Have you found any that says "I am Morgan?" 

The only part slavery played in the run-up to the WNA was , it was an exceptable  excuse.  For the real reasons the Southern states seceded from the USA can be found in the Congressional Records and the Commodities Exchange records during the 2 years or so before the Secession.  Check out the laws that were passed by the northern controlled Congress as they pertained to the marketing of cotton and check the prices set by the northern owned textile mills and you'll find the reasons the Southern states became the Confederate States of America.  Slavery was the hue and cry of the northern pukes because it was far more "acceptable" to the citizenry.  After all, blood had been spilled for YEARS prior to that between the abolitionists and the pro-slavery crowds in the Kansas-Missouri "border wars".  You know;  the Jayhawkers and Red-Legs.  

I'm starting to wonder if there might have been an inner-organization using the KGC as a cold cover.  Similar to; say the intersanctum to the Tabernacle.

No, but I haven't looked either...LOL  They should be findable though.  There are records of where they were when they buried some of it before looting the next town.  And then they got captured, ten they escaped, and I think the ones that escaped high tailed it back to southern controlled states, if I remember correctly, Morgan went back to TN.  I never found any evidence he or anyone else ever went back to dig any of it up.  Nor have I seen anything that anyone else has dug any of it up either - so there is a decent chance there are a few caches of his still out there.  I would think they would be worth a good amount.

Off hand I can't remember which states, but they were north of TN, which is mainly why I didn't go looking.  Time and money, both always in short supply.  But unless there is a Walmart sitting on it now, a good detective could probably find one or two.

The only part slavery played in the run-up to the WNA was , it was an exceptable  excuse.  For the real reasons the Southern states seceded from the USA can be found in the Congressional Records and the Commodities Exchange records during the 2 years or so before the Secession.  Check out the laws that were passed by the northern controlled Congress as they pertained to the marketing of cotton and check the prices set by the northern owned textile mills and you'll find the reasons the Southern states became the Confederate States of America.  Slavery was the hue and cry of the northern pukes because it was far more "acceptable" to the citizenry.  After all, blood had been spilled for YEARS prior to that between the abolitionists and the pro-slavery crowds in the Kansas-Missouri "border wars".  You know;  the Jayhawkers and Red-Legs.  

I'm starting to wonder if there might have been an inner-organization using the KGC as a cold cover.  Similar to; say the intersanctum to the Tabernacle.

Excellent points.

My understanding is this:

The Southern states had been discussing getting out of the Union for a while already - MA had been thinking about it since 1850..LOL

Lincoln - when in Ill - pushed for a state built RR - which bakrupted the state and never got finished.  When he became President - since it worked so well at the state level - he decided to build a RR across the North - but all the money was being generated in the south.  So he imposed great big tariffs on the cotton going to Europe - which ticked off the south.

Not exactly the stories we are taught in school.

The border wars were completely different set of circumstances, and started long before the WNA.  That whole period leading up to the WNA fascinates me.  And I had kin that got caught up in it.

The Emancipation Proclamation - in Lincolns own words - was purely a military ploy.  It only freed slaves in states "not controlled by the Union".  He wanted a slave uprising in the south, which would force all the men to leave the front lines and go home - because only women and children were minding the plantations. 

An inner circle - certainly possible.  Before hostilities broke out, VP Breckenridge and I forget the Sec of Treasuries name - not important at the moment, the two of them managed to remove 6 million in gold bars from the US treasury, which went to funding the CSA.  You need a lot of help to steal that much in gold.  And you need them all to keep quite about it.  This was before Lincoln took office, so they were planning to break away already.

Whether that was KGC related or not I don't know.

 Just an idle thought :
 If one old man that was part of a group that went to Danville post Civil War, when he was a young man and poor ,could will a couple million dollars to the Baptist Church and be buried with Masonic honors when he passed in his 90's ; how much influence could the entire group exercise on the town to insure that empty holes are never exposed ?

Tnwoods:

As I recently mentioned in another thread,  Congress passed export laws that not only put a hell of a tax on cotton bound to overseas markets, the South was also required BY LAW to ship the cotton to northern ports via the inter-coastal waterways.  The South could not, BY LAW ship cotton directly to overseas markets from their own ports, such as Charleston, New Orleans, Mobile, etc.   Not even from Norfolk, Va.  Cotton shipments to overseas markets could only be done from the northern ports of Philadelphia, New York, Boston, etc.  We weren't told about that in school, even here in the South.  I learned that info many, many years later while researching history as a hobby.  Yep, the winner writes the history.

Now, someone reading this thread might ask "what the h--- this has to do with the title of the thread?"  Well, the answer is because when the southern folks and northern sympathizers began planning the secession, then hard money and GOLD was gathered from many places and hidden away for future recovery.  Those not recovered, for one reason or another, are the stuff our treasure caches are made of. 

Tnwoods:

As I recently mentioned in another thread,  Congress passed export laws that not only put a hell of a tax on cotton bound to overseas markets, the South was also required BY LAW to ship the cotton to northern ports via the inter-coastal waterways.  The South could not, BY LAW ship cotton directly to overseas markets from their own ports, such as Charleston, New Orleans, Mobile, etc.   Not even from Norfolk, Va.  Cotton shipments to overseas markets could only be done from the northern ports of Philadelphia, New York, Boston, etc.  We weren't told about that in school, even here in the South.  I learned that info many, many years later while researching history as a hobby.  Yep, the winner writes the history.

Now, someone reading this thread might ask "what the h--- this has to do with the title of the thread?"  Well, the answer is because when the southern folks and northern sympathizers began planning the secession, then hard money and GOLD was gathered from many places and hidden away for future recovery.  Those not recovered, for one reason or another, are the stuff our treasure caches are made of. 

Good point 

Tnwoods:

As I recently mentioned in another thread,  Congress passed export laws that not only put a hell of a tax on cotton bound to overseas markets, the South was also required BY LAW to ship the cotton to northern ports via the inter-coastal waterways.  The South could not, BY LAW ship cotton directly to overseas markets from their own ports, such as Charleston, New Orleans, Mobile, etc.   Not even from Norfolk, Va.  Cotton shipments to overseas markets could only be done from the northern ports of Philadelphia, New York, Boston, etc.  We weren't told about that in school, even here in the South.  I learned that info many, many years later while researching history as a hobby.  Yep, the winner writes the history.

Now, someone reading this thread might ask "what the h--- this has to do with the title of the thread?"  Well, the answer is because when the southern folks and northern sympathizers began planning the secession, then hard money and GOLD was gathered from many places and hidden away for future recovery.  Those not recovered, for one reason or another, are the stuff our treasure caches are made of. 

Good point 

Yep - see, now we are getting somewhere.  The real question is - did they use it all, or did they leave some behind for whatever reason.  Like - oh - the Union took control before they could get to it.

Even then, i would think there would be a paper trail somewhere.   When they got the 6 million out of the treasury - there was a record of it turning up missing.

I too didn't learn the real reasons for thr WNA until I started doing my own historical searches.  Funny how the official reasons in school are so diluted and contorted.

But I think, in order to find anything, unless you are just plain lucky, you have to understand  what was going on and who was doing what not just during the war, but leading up to it as well. 

Lot of stuff got looted and buried by both sides during the war.

One thing before I call it a day.

I have a friend, good ole Southern boy, who was a history teacher and specialized in the WNA.  He told me that the day before the battle of Franklin, TN - General hood met up with the Union Generals at the Franklin Masonic lodge. 

That night, Hood allowed the Union troops to march right past his camp, and told his men not to engage.  Next day he marched his men straight into a slaughter house.  He watched them get cut down while standing on a hill that looked over the battlefield. 

So if you want to throw the Masons in the mix, there you go.  Most of the West Point Generals were Mason's and friends before the war.  Does that tie the KGC to the Mason's - no - but the Masonic brotherhood between the Generals would seem to have had a direct effect on the war.

Hood's army was done after that battle.  And was a turning point for the North.  Some sort of deal was made.

No, but I haven't looked either...LOL  They should be findable though.  There are records of where they were when they buried some of it before looting the next town.  And then they got captured, ten they escaped, and I think the ones that escaped high tailed it back to southern controlled states, if I remember correctly, Morgan went back to TN.  I never found any evidence he or anyone else ever went back to dig any of it up.  Nor have I seen anything that anyone else has dug any of it up either - so there is a decent chance there are a few caches of his still out there.  I would think they would be worth a good amount.

Off hand I can't remember which states, but they were north of TN, which is mainly why I didn't go looking.  Time and money, both always in short supply.  But unless there is a Walmart sitting on it now, a good detective could probably find one or two.

Morgan came through my town. In fact, I'm on the trail of a cache that was buried by a local man because of Morgan and his men.

No, but I haven't looked either...LOL  They should be findable though.  There are records of where they were when they buried some of it before looting the next town.  And then they got captured, ten they escaped, and I think the ones that escaped high tailed it back to southern controlled states, if I remember correctly, Morgan went back to TN.  I never found any evidence he or anyone else ever went back to dig any of it up.  Nor have I seen anything that anyone else has dug any of it up either - so there is a decent chance there are a few caches of his still out there.  I would think they would be worth a good amount.

Off hand I can't remember which states, but they were north of TN, which is mainly why I didn't go looking.  Time and money, both always in short supply.  But unless there is a Walmart sitting on it now, a good detective could probably find one or two.

Morgan came through my town. In fact, I'm on the trail of a cache that was buried by a local man because of Morgan and his men.

After you find that, I'd look for what Morgan hid.  If I remember right, they would bury their spoils near their camp sites.  Finding those shouldn't be hard.

"...When I said I think 21 is young for a KGC big shot - that is my opinion..."

Who ever said that Brown County Deputy Charles Webb was 21 when he was killed in Comanche, Texas in 1874 by John Wesley Hardin?  I sure didn't and I don't know anyone who did.   
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

Hi Texas Jay.  My bad, he was 25 when he was shot.  I know you didn't say that, that is what the Brownwood Texas Sheriff's say.

Click here to submit this officer's photograph

Patch image: Brown County Sheriff's Department, Texas

Deputy Sheriff Charles Webb
Brown County Sheriff's Department
Texas
End of Watch: Tuesday, May 26, 1874

Biographical Info
Age: 25
Tour of Duty: Not available
Badge Number: Not available

Incident Details
Cause of Death: Gunfire
Date of Incident: Tuesday, May 26, 1874
Weapon Used: Handgun; .44 caliber
Suspect Info: Shot and killed

Deputy Charles Webb was shot and killed by a notorious outlaw wanted for murder, robbery, and cattle rustling. He had encountered the suspect outside of a local saloon and a gunfight ensued. Deputy Webb was able to shoot the man in the side before being shot in the head. As he fell two accomplices continued to shoot him.

The suspect was taken into custody, after being shot and wounded, by Texas Rangers outside of Pensacola, Florida. He was sentenced to 25 years but was pardoned by the Texas governor after serving only 16 years despite having murdered a reported 48 people. Following his release he became a lawyer, but was later shot and killed by a constable. The suspect's brother killed Kimble County Texas Deputy Sheriff John Turman in 1898.

Deputy Webb had previously served as a Texas Ranger and was a Mason. He was buried in Greenleaf Cemetery, in Brownwood, Texas.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/13915-deputy-sheriff-charles-webb

1864 - KGC plot to weaken U.S. dollar

From:
"Confederate Agent: A Discovery in History" by James D. Horan, published by The
Fairfax Press, 1954, pages 88 & 89. I hope all members will read this quote
carefully as I believe it explains a tactic that explains how the KGC was able
to use a modified version of this gold strategy to accumulate much of the wealth
that the Knights of the Golden Circle deposited in "marker caches" and
depositories many years after the War's end.
~Texas Jay

***

"...While Hines rounded up the escaped prisoners of war to form his
tiny "squadron," as he would call it in later years, Thompson set out
for Niagara Falls to contact "potent men of the North" to learn how
they felt about peace. Leading Copperheads like Fernando Wood, ex-
mayor of New York City, and ex-governor Washington Hunt of New
York, met with him at the Clifton House. New York and the East were



THE FOX AND THE COPPERHEADS 89

not ready for peace or an uprising, they told Thompson. War manu-
facturers there were too powerful and were on the alert to "neutralize" any
peace efforts.

Thompson next turned to Secretary Benjamin's favorite project: try-
ing to create a financial panic in the North by buying up gold and
smuggling it out of the country in order to weaken the gold security
for the Union dollar. A Nashville banker named Porterfield, who was
living in exile in Montreal, was selected by Thompson as the proper
man to set this in motion.

Porterfield was furnished with fifty thousand dollars. He went to
New York, opened an office under a fictitious name and began to pur-
chase gold, which he exported to England and sold for sterling bills
of exchange. Then he converted the sterling bills into dollars which
he used to buy more gold. The transaction was a costly one, showing
a loss due to the cost of operations, trans-shipment, etc. Porterfield continued
until his losses were twenty thousand dollars. By this time he had exported five
million dollars in gold, "and had induced others to ship much more [gold]." His
buying up gold and sending it out of the country began "showing a marked
effect/' as Thompson said in his official report to Richmond, when the Federals
cracked down.

A former partner of Porterfield's was arrested by General Ben Butler
for exporting gold, and thrown in Lafayette Prison in New York Har-
bor. Porterfield fled back to Canada* However, he still retained the
twenty-five thousand dollars remaining to continue the exporting of
gold through "fronts" in New York.

By the first week in June, 1864, Hines was in touch with his Copper-
head friends in Ohio, Indiana and Illinois and in communication with
Vallandigham, who was now living in Windsor. A meeting was set
for the 14th to plan the Copperhead uprising and the release of the
Rebel prisoners in Camps Douglas, Morton, Chase and Rock Island.

Hines and Thompson met with Vallandigham on the afternoon of
the 14th in a dim front parlor of a boarding-house in St. Catharine's, Canada.
Vallandigham, now a man without a country, detailed for Hines the strength of
the Copperheads. Membership totaled about 300,000. Illinois had furnished
80,000, Indiana, 50,000, Ohio, 40,000 and Kentucky and New York State, the rest
A "feeling of fatigue" was sweeping through the North, Vallandigham told them,
following Lincoln's draft call for 500,000 more men..."
***

The KGC hoped to fund itself in a grand way by taking over Mexico and it's numerous gold and silver mines. With the failure of their not conquering Mexico, so went their big bucks. I have more than one source that shows that the guys running the KGC offices were being payed with the dues brought in. I think that had they taken Mexico then they would have been major players with billion dollar vaults, but other than Houk there's just not a verifiable source for the mega caches.

In my opinion you'd have more luck finding one of the Japanese or German caches from WWII.

Knights of the Golden Circle being active after the Civil War is simply hogwash...at best.

What is that, some kind of shampoo for your pet pig?

Absolutely.

Knights of the Golden Circle being active after the Civil War is simply hogwash...at best.

SWR, Yammie, Jim,

The KGC operated into the 1900s (approximately 1916), continually putting caches in the ground until that time. They also came back and moved some caches to other spots within the originall areas the cahce was located in, changing the clues/carvings along the way.

I have this information from a very good source.

Good luck in your hunting!

    Post-Civil War KGC became OAK... Order of AMERICAN Knights; the "old guard" became the "new guard".   

I'm sure that there were people around in the early 1900's that had been members of the KGC but for them to have been moving caches and re-marking the locations with new carvings and markers there would have had to have been caches to move/re-mark.

There is no substantiated information anywhere that says the KGC had any money to put in the ground, and I'm talking about the "depositories", so there wouldn't be anything to move or re-mark. If you take Orvus Howk out of the equation then there is no information at all that would even indicate the depositories or any large caches exist at all.

I'm with Yammy on this one, are you saying the KGC morphed into some other group and it was actually that/those groups that put the mega bucks in the ground? It seems the stories keep changing just to stay ahead of what the facts really are.

Bob Brewer's L.A. Times interview can be read on this SCV webpage:

http://www.scvcamp260.org/newsletter/2008/2008-Vol1No4-Feb-NL.pdf

~Texas Jay

Actually, I chuckle at fools who pretend that $200,000 worth of recovered KGC treasure is a fallacy.
~Texas Jay

No, that should be and is exactly what it was - recovered KGC treasure.  If you doubt it, you should whine to the L.A. Times writer who conducted the interview with Bob Brewer.  I'm sure she could set you straight.
~Texas Jay

If Bob's theory on how to decode the copper "wolf" map is any indication of his $200,000 KGC recovery then good luck validating that one! I can show you a number of things wrong with his decoding the copper map. For one there isn't a hand drawn on the map like he shows. There isn't an IC for indian camp, etc., etc. The L.A. Times is now a source of proof for a KGC cache recovery. LOL

[They also came back and moved some caches to other spots within the originall areas the cahce was located in, changing the clues/carvings along the way. When this was done they also changed the type of code at the site so that someone following the original clues would not/could not read the second code, therefore making it extremely difficult to locate the cache.]

I'm sure that there were people around in the early 1900's that had been members of the KGC but for them to have been moving caches and re-marking the locations with new carvings and markers there would have had to have been caches to move/re-mark.

That's interesting...these are your words, not mine...  I actually don't believe they moved caches or changed the carvings but you do.  Yammie only knows what he reads on the internet from "trustworthy" sources.

Alec wrote:
They also came back and moved some caches to other spots within the originall areas the cahce was located in, changing the clues/carvings along the way. When this was done they also changed the type of code at the site so that someone following the original clues would not/could not read the second code, therefore making it extremely difficult to locate the cache.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forum/tr...asurehunting/messages/1014830.shtml

You got me there boattow, I don't remember writing that but at one time I did beleive that. Too bad you didn't post the date that I wrote that and it would be obvious that was back when I did believe the myths and before I did any of my own research. I have said repeatedly since then that I have come to my senses.



So you're quoting a newspaper that quotes Bob Brewer who quotes Orvus Howk? There is no independant information that says the KGC put down any treasures like what is bandied about.

Yammie only knows what he reads on the internet from "trustworthy" sources.

Yammy knows the difference between fringe theories based on fiction and real recorded history   

Quite an accomplishment for a 12 year old.

Thanks Boattow for quoting Ron's post from 2003.  Here is the entire message:

***
This forum has been discontinued.
Please use our new forum
 
 
     
 
Re: KGC on state lines
February 17, 2003 at 14:41:45
In Reply to: Re: KGC IN CALIFORNIA
posted by Richard on February 17, 2003 at 13:21:16
 


"Richard,

You have part of the equation correct when you say that the KGC like to put down caches on state lines. You just haven't gone far enough. The KGC used several different "lines" when placing caches in the ground and sometimes the only thing you had was one or two clues that indicate what line and where to begin. The "line" caches were originally designed to be worked using a transparent overlay onto a regular county/topographical map of the time. The small number of clues were just there to tell you that you are in the right spot and to indicate where the overlay should be used.

The KGC operated into the 1900s (approximately 1916), continually putting caches in the ground until that time. They also came back and moved some caches to other spots within the originall areas the cahce was located in, changing the clues/carvings along the way. When this was done they also changed the type of code at the site so that someone following the original clues would not/could not read the second code, therefore making it extremely difficult to locate the cache.

They were very tricky in how they placed their caches, using several hidden reverses along the way, decoys and a mixture of code. They knew the geology and geography of the area where the cache was placed and in some instances used engineers to place the caches. This was not a group of lazy men nor were they stupid.

Good luck in your hunting! "
 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Re: I like creative ingenuity with caches Richard - 19:07:14 2/17/2003 (0)

***

I think this expose is hilarious considering that "Alec" has been so vehement in his opposition to everything that he stated in this post just a few years ago!     Now the big question is, well, I suppose you all can figure that out. 
~Texas Jay

You guys must really like to beat a dead horse. First you continue to believe in the KGC mega depository myths and now you are trying to make it sound like I still believe in something that I have said over and over again that I do not believe in any more.

I have never tried to hide the fact that I too was once fooled by the stories that you so frequently quote. The only difference between me and you is the fact that I know how to do research and draw conclusions based on the actual facts and not the information I pick and choose to believe in so that it will match some fantasy theory.

As with your belief in the KGC treasure myths, you are now wasting time bringing up quotes that have no relevance. Everyone makes mistakes, some of us are willing to accept that we were wrong and say so. Others like yourselves don't seem to be able to do that. Keep beating those dead horses guys, you apparently need the exercise.

Alec, you say:

"I know how to do research and draw conclusions based on the actual facts and not the information I pick and choose to believe in so that it will match some fantasy theory."

I'm still waiting for you to document some of the sources of information you gathered in your research that caused you to so radically change your steadfast beliefs stated in 2003.  Not just your opinions, I want the facts as you found them.  In other words, what caused you to see the light?

~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

What caused me to see the light is that there are no facts concerning the KGC mega depositories. Anywhere! Lots of info about the KGC itself but absolutely nothing about treasures, except of course the information from Orvus Howk which is continually rehashed by all of the supposed KGC experts. Over and Over and over.........

You can't document what's not there. The information you use as "documented proof" all comes from the same original source which is Howk. Howk was a liar and conman. I have said this several times before also, there is no information that even alludes to the KGC having any large amounts of money or hiding any large treasures except for the info from Howk. If you study the KGC you will find very quickly that they weren't the secrect organization everyone likes to say they were and they did not have the organizational skills or the logistical support to pull off even 1/4 of what they are supposed to have done. They didn't even have the kind of money it would take to spend making these depositories much less putting any money in them.

None of this KGC depository nonsense even existed until Dalton and Howk showed up. Neither man was who or what they said they were. If these things really existed don't you think there would have been something prior to 1950 coming out about the treasures or talking about the group or the areas they were hiring help or bringing in workers, etc.? It's not like the KGC was some big secret back then. Everybody knew they existed and what they were trying to do and they couldn't even collect enough money to continue as a group much less put anything in the ground like the alleged tons of gold and silver that is talked about. All of the other Civil War information was available and coming out as it was happening in the 1800's.

All of the rumors about the South's money and where it went and who made have gotten it all came out in the 1800's. Why would the KGC be immune from any of this? They weren't a secret group, they had no money, they couldn't handle the task of making these depositories even if they could afford to do so because they didn't have the man power or money to do so.

To borrow from yammy, extrordinary claims require extra ordinary proof. None of which you or anybody else has because it doesn't exist, pure and simple.

You and boattow seem to spend more time trying to bait people into an argument than you do searching for the truth.

Your credibility, Alec, is nil.  What ever happened to SWR?  I wanted to wish him a Merry Christmas.   
~Texas Jay

First you continue to believe in the KGC mega depository myths and now you are trying to make it sound like I still believe in something that I have said over and over again that I do not believe in any more.

   I know Alec, I was just messing with you.  I know you believed one way and then switched sides.  But I had to poke a little fun

I guess the question is what is your idea of a mega depository?  In other words, do I believe there are depositories that are composed of levels that you could drive a horse and wagon through?  I don't know but find it hard to believe.  So if this is your idea of a mega depository I can certainly understand your reluctance to believe they exist.  I've never seen one.  However maybe your idea of a mega depository is a vault 50 feet deep in the ground.  If so, and you don't believe they exist, then you haven't looked hard enough!  I'm not going to rule it out because I think I've read enough published information to believe they didn't have the money to do it.  I didn't come to my conclusions based on book reading, hearsay, newspaper articles, or suppositions based on these things, I'm basing them on facts in the field. 

I don't care what you believe.  What I do care about is that you get on forums and say, as though beyond a shadow of a doubt or absolute fact, that these are KGC myths, when you can't possibly know that.  You may believe it.  You just can't KNOW it!  To me, that's just not right.

Texas Jay,
Yammie elf, SWR, Jim, are all one in the same.

Boattow

"Texas Jay,
Yammie elf, SWR, Jim, are all one in the same.

Boattow"

Thanks, Boattow, for explaining this to me.  They like to disguise their identities like some other naysayers I know.  We call that bunch the Smokescreen Gang. 
~Texas Jay

You don't have me confused, "Yammy", and never have.  Want proof?  Google "Smokescreen Gang" and read all about it.   
~Texas Jay

I don't care what you believe.  What I do care about is that you get on forums and say, as though beyond a shadow of a doubt or absolute fact, that these are KGC myths, when you can't possibly know that.  You may believe it.  You just can't KNOW it!  To me, that's just not right.

Boattow, you are correct, I can't possibly be 100% sure that the KGC didn't plant money in the ground in some vault 20-30-40-50 feet underground. I'm not going to hold my breath that they exist and I will say that when I do say I don't believe in these vaults, I say why. Poeple reading can then make up their own minds as to what to believe.

You seem to have a problem with me coming onto a forum and saying that these are KGC myths without being 100% sure of that information but it doesn't bother you when you or Texas Jay says without a doubt that the depositories/vaults do exist when you have no proof that they do. You can't possibly be 100% sure they do exist. This would seem to be the same thing but you only don't like it when the opinion is opposite of yours. How do you justify doing the same thing I'm doing but having a problem with it when I do it and not you?

Opinion is opinion no matter who it comes from. I at least give reasons for my opinions when I post them.

Alec, maybe it is because I know the location of at least one KGC depository so I am 100% sure about my facts when I post about KGC depositories existing.  I've done extensive field work on three locations so far but don't expect me to "prove" it to you because I am on to your game.  It's called Fishing for Information.  You should be familiar with it from your occupation.
~Texas Jay

It would seem that the main source for KGC information today would be Hillbilly Bob and according to his book his information comes from "the Black Book", or Orvus Lee Howk to be exact. Houk was nothing more than a conman.

Treasures can be found in crevice burials, 16 inches deep, caves, mine shafts, 50 feet deep, etc., but without some kind of documentation you just can't prove they are KGC. Just because there are turkey tracks or bent trees does't prove a thing. I have been on many sites with turkey tracks, hearts, etc and can't say they were anything more than outlaw/Spanish sites.

I'm just offering a different opinion and since this is an open forum I'm free to do so. I think it's a good thing to have to defend what you believe in. As of this date I haven't found anything posted that will change my mind. If you guys say you found a KGC site then good for you. I personally think that if I found one, and could prove it, I'd make it public to the world, so that us naysayers would have to eat some crow. The publicity, book deals, and interviews alone would make you rich.

but it doesn't bother you when you or Texas Jay says without a doubt that the depositories/vaults do exist when you have no proof that they do.

I can't speak for Texas Jay.  I don't know him or know what he knows.

You can't possibly be 100% sure they do exist.

How can you make such a statement?!  You are making a bad assumption.   You are confusing OPINION with FACT.  You can't know for a fact that they don't exist.  I can know for a fact that they do. 
Boattow

Alec, maybe it is because I know the location of at least one KGC depository so I am 100% sure about my facts when I post about KGC depositories existing.  I've done extensive field work on three locations so far but don't expect me to "prove" it to you because I am on to your game.  It's called Fishing for Information.  You should be familiar with it from your occupation.
~Texas Jay

No who's credibility is "nil"??


Boattow, facts are only facts when they can be proven as such. I'm not making any bad assumptions. No one has ever offered up any "facts" proving that anything they have found or supposedly know where is located is KGC. Unless it has documents from the KGC with it or it was found using actual documents that can be proven to be from the KGC then no one can prove what they have found is KGC. Using a template to walk around and dig up trash that almost fits the spot it "should" be in is not proof that the KGC did anything. You may have found a treasure but that doesn't mean it was left by the KGC. Of course, Texas Jay knows where one is but I guess he doesn't want to recover it.

There's another one of those statements that should bother you but apparently doesn't.

This is for Texas Jay and Boattow. These are the same maps that Pastore was flipping through on the tv show. Bogus KGC maps from Houk.

I'm not making any bad assumptions.

So what this all boils down to is you haven't found anything KGC so there must not be anything out there...

[nobody]

What it boils down to is that nobody has found anything KGC, meaning the vaults and depositories that are talked about, or any real information that indicates they even exist, so it is very unlikely, even very probable that they do not exist.

Alec, how did your latest trip to Wapanucka turn out?  Sure seems to be a lot of treasure there for it to only be an outlaw "road cache".  Where did you originally get the information that you needed to search there? 

"Texas Jay knows where one is but I guess he doesn't want to recover it." - Alec

I don't recall ever saying whether or not I have recovered anything at that site.  If I did or when I do, you will not see it posted on here.  I have no interest in book deals, tv shows, or publicity regarding my treasure finds.  If I did, no doubt, you'd be racing Pastore down to central Texas to try to get your share of the "outlaw money".  ha.
~Texas Jay

Texas Jay, I don't believe I ever said you did recover a treasure. I was refering to your quote where you said you "know the location of at least one KGC depository". Just like Brewer, you "know" where it is but you won't recover it. Must be the curse of the KGC! 

My "last trip" to Wapanucka was my first trip. I was there at the request of a friend and I will not discuss that site because of confidentiality. You don't know anything about that particular site or apparently any outlaw sites or you wouldn't have to ask your question.

You keep looking for those depositories.

You don't know what I know or who I know, Ron.  But I do know people who know a lot more about Wapanucka than you do.  They all know the treasure there is KGC.  Once again, you jump to silly assumptions when you know nothing about my work.  Why do all of your "outlaw sites" seem to be sites that were discovered by KGC hunters years ago?  Why don't you get a little creative and adventurous and actually discover your own sites?  Oh yeah, did any of your outlaws ride 3-legged horses?  Fishing for Information.   
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery   

Sorry to burst your bubble there Jay but if you have never been on the site then you don't know what you need to know. The things written about the site in the books you apparently hold as gospel aren't correct. Therefore you are just guessing based on your own assumptions determined by your own perception of things.

Since I have only been on the site once I am sure there are people more familiar with the site but whether or not they know more than I do about the signs is up for debate.

Not all of the sites I have been to were discovered by KGC hunters years ago as you say. Only two of the sites that I know of have been called KGC sites and that's only by people not smart enough to know any better. If you are relying on information from Brewer or Pastore as being definitive proof of a KGC site then you need to rethink your research.

The question you should be asking is why is it all of these supposed KGC sites you talk about have outlaw signs on them? This would lead a logical person to believe the outlaws were there, not the KGC since there aren't any KGC signs on the sites.

You should know, but apparently don't, that Quantrill's Guerrillas were all Knights of the Golden Circle and they were all considered to be "outlaws".  What you should be asking yourself is "If these caches were all buried by run-of-the-mill bank and train robbers or ordinary thieves, then what specific robbery did this money and valuables come from?"  Also, why did they never return to get these large amounts of money?  If they were killed or imprisoned before they could retrieve them, then you need to be able to document that too.  Now, I will restate my questions to you:
"Why don't you get a little creative and adventurous and actually discover your own sites?  Oh yeah, did any of your outlaws ride 3-legged horses?"
~Texas Jay

Oh yeah, did any of your outlaws ride 3-legged horses?"


First you tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and now you want my help??? 

"Why don't you get a little creative and adventurous and actually discover your own sites?"

There you go talking again without a clue about what you're talking about. It seems like you're the one fishing for information.

No, Ron, I am not asking your help.  I've already deciphered this intricate carving.  I was just teasing you a bit since you are an authority on outlaws. 
SWR, yes I do have many "reliable" references for this "bold" statement.  I've even prepared a little belated Christmas present for you and the other KGC naysayers.  Hint: In late January, google "Knights of the Golden Circle" and you will receive what you asked for.  Until then, no peeking.     
~Texas Jay

Actually Jay, I can document where some of these outlaw sites money came from. Take the I left Kansas Map. That money came from a robbery in Kansas. There was $5000 in gold dust taken. That would be the three bags of gold dust shown on the map. The same is the case with a number of other sites I know of. If you do some research these things can be figured out and documented.

There are a number of reasons the outlaws never came back to get their hidden goodies. Many times it was do to them being killed. Often in a later robbery attempt. Most of what the James/Younger gang put down here was done prior to their failed Northfield attempt. After that things really changed for Frank and Jesse. You also have to remember that until about 1878 my part of Oklahoma was a good place to have your scalp lifted.

Let's talk about KGC hunters discovering their own sites. Of the two supposed places here in Oklahoma both were "discovered" many decades before the KGC hunters "found" them. The Wapanucka site was hunted many years ago as was section 16. Both of these sites Bob was on and in both cases he was invited to them. He didn't find them.

It isn't hard to dicover a spot. If you have been in the field enough you begin to get the feeling of where a good spot is. Researching old trails, springs, river crossings are also a way of finding these places.

You can knock Ron all you want but he has put more good treasure hunting information and pictures of real signs and symbols on the internet than anybody else I know of. I've posted hundreds of pictures myself. I've even put three KGC maps on here for you KGC hunters to go find. These are the mega caches so often touted about. Unlike some famous treasure hunters I don't hide my e-mail address and I actually try and help those who write with questions.

Boattow and Texas Jay I'll post one more KGC map for you. I'll ask what do you have to show the folks on the forum other than, I don't have to prove anything statements? How is that a non-kgc hunter can post more KGC treasure info than the KGC hunters?

Just listening and ------

Don Jose de La Mancha

Remember me when you guys find these.

From:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

***

While the KGC naysayers continue to rant and rave that the Knights of the Golden
Circle died "during the War", they never do provide a specific year or reputable
source to support this erroneous claim. Here is a newspaper article from August
3, 1864, that says "The numerical strength of this Order is said to be
considerably over half a million." This was in late 1864 so it sure doesn't
sound to me like a dying organization. The proven fact is that the KGC had
hundreds of thousands more members at the end of the War than it had at the
beginning.
~Jay~

***
From Richmond Daily Dispatch.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...erseus%253Atext%253A2006.05.1135%2\
53Aarticle%253D6

Additional from the North.
From Northern papers of the 30th we get some additional intelligence.
The Yankees are considerably befogged about the whereabouts of Early, though
they state positively that be has retired beyond Martinsburg.

General Hunter, who has been relieved at his own request from the command of the
army in the Valley, is carrying on a contemptible and cruel prosecution of the
citizens of Maryland. He has exiled the secession citizens of Frederick.--Messrs
Bingham and Norris, editors of the Frederick Citizen, have been sent South.

The St. Louis Democrat publishes a long account of the conspiracy for the
erection of a Northwestern confederacy, referred to a few days since. The
organization engaged in this conspiracy is known as the Order of American
Knights, and their object is to embarrass the Government in the conduct of the
war, and to overthrow the Government, if necessary, for the supremacy of the
Order. Its professions and purposes are different in different States. It
proclaims a war policy in New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and other Eastern
States, while in the West it is for peace.

The Democrat's account says:

` The Order is of Southern origin, being erected on the ruins of the Knights of
the Golden Circle. Of the Southern organization General Sterling Price is
Supreme Commander. C C Vallandigham, while in Richmond, was made the Supreme
Commander of the Northern section or Order. A conspiracy, it is said, was
entered into between him and the rebel authorities to divide the East from the
West, and to thus aid the Southern rebellion.

' Vallandigham's time in Canada, it is said, was principally spent in furthering
this scheme. He had a conference with some of the leading spirits in the North,
and soon after his arrival in Canada arranged for the establishment of an Order
throughout the loyal States. The names of all who visited him at the Clifton
House are known to the Government. Among them the names of several prominent
politicians are published. The results of the conference are also known to the
Government.

About the 1st of January Vallandigham issued an address to the members of the
Golden Circle in the loyal States, in which he called upon them to renew their
vows, and said the time was fast approaching which will test their sincerity;
that the prosecution of the war is in violation of the rights of the States, and
President Lincoln is a usurper.

A meeting of the grand commanders of the different States was held in New York
on the 22d of February for the purpose of organizing an outbreak on the 10th of
March, the day fixed for the draft, but no definite plan was resolved upon. The
names of these conspirators are also known. The same commanders had a general
consultation with the supreme commanders at Windsor, Canada, early in April.

Amongst those in attendance were McMasters, of New York, Charles L. Hunt, St.
Louis, and Lafayette Devlin, of Indiana.

The programme adopted at those meetings was, that Vallandigham should represent
his District of Ohio in the Democratic National Convention, and there proclaim
the doctrine of the Order, viz: Pronounce the existing Administration of the
Government a power usurped, which the people had a right to expel by force, if
necessary. In fact, to inaugurate a rebellion in the North, in which he was to
be supported by the Order. Each Grand Commander was to have an armed bodyguard
at the Convention for the defence of Vallandigham. This, it was thought, would
precipitate the people of the Free States into armed conflicts and would be the
signal for the members of the Order to unite against the lawful authorities,
kill or capture the civil and military authorities, seize the arsenals, arms
public property of all kinds, and proclaim the Government overthrown.

The numerical strength of this Order is said to be considerably over half a
million. One hundred and fifty thousand of the whole are organized in New York,
and are called McClellan Minute Men.

There is the most convincing evidence of the truthfulness of this statement. The
reason of the sudden return of Vallandigham to Ohio was the fear of being
defeated as a delegate to Chicago, and it was only by his presence that his
election was secured.

The Grand Commander of Missouri is Charles L. , a nephew of James H. Lucas, and
many years the Belgian Consul, and the Deputy Grand Commander, Charles E. Dunn,
a city officer of St. Louis.

A long list of the names of the members of the Order of the different states,
together with full information concerning the whole scheme, is in the hands of
the authorities at Washington, and will probably be given to the public in a
short time.

The statements are based upon very voluminous testimony, taken during several
months past by the Provost Marshal General of the Department of Missouri.

Mrs. Mary E. Sawyer, of Baltimore, for corresponding with the Confederates, has
been sentenced to be confined in the female prison at Fritchburg, Massachusetts,
during the war, and "to be employed in labor for the benefit of the Union
soldiers"

Johnson S. Palmer, a blockade runner, of Loudon county, Va., has been sentenced
to the Albany (N. Y.) penitentiary for the war for trading with the
Confederates.

Charles L. Weller. Ex-Postmaster of San Francisco, has been arrested and
imprisoned at Fort Alcatraz, on the charge of using treasonable language at a
meeting of a Copperhead Club. --Weller is chairman of the Democratic State
Central Committee.


The Daily Dispatch: August 3, 1864. Richmond Dispatch. 2 pages. by Cowardin &
Hammersley. Richmond. August 3, 1864. microfilm. Ann Arbor, Mi : Proquest. 1
microfilm reel ; 35 mm.
Institute of Museum and Library Services National Leadership Grant provided
support for entering this text.

***

Does anyone here consider our Central Intelligence Agency a "reliable source"?   
~Texas Jay

https://www.cia.gov/library/publica...onal-publications/civil-war/p37.htm

Has anyone found any references to the KGC existing after May 1865? All these are during the war which we know the Sons of Liberty were still fighting to secure a confederate victory.

It would seem the CIA thinks the same as I do. The KGC failed to accomplish much. Like has been said on here before, they did manage to pull Texas into the war and for that Texas suffered after the war like the other southern states.

Jay and Boattow I posted KGC maps. Do you guys have anything to offer the forum readers? I'm talking KGC treasure related. I think everyone agrees the KGC was a real organization and plenty can be found about them, but lets get down to the knitty gritty of KGC treasure caches. I've posted four kgc maps and I have others. What can you guys provide? Of course I think the maps are bogus, but I at least provided something that most people here on the forum didn't have.

I would think the KGC members who weren't killed during the war either just settled back into their normal lives or joined other organizations. The KGC as an effective group doesn't show up on the radar after 1865. From what I read they were trying to avoid prosecution after the war.

It's easy to say they became something else and that might be true, but unless they became the democratic party who seems hell bent on destroying our country I can't say they accomplished anything as a different group either. The KKK has done a great job of destroying property and lives of people of color or different beliefs, but what have they really done? The KKK has had millions of members and I would assume more funding than the KGC but we don't hear about klan mega caches. Why is that?

It would seem the CIA thinks the same as I do. The KGC failed to accomplish much. Like has been said on here before, they did manage to pull Texas into the war and for that Texas suffered after the war like the other southern states.

This is why you don't believe in the KGC.  This is all bogus information...every bit of it.

Jay and Boattow I posted KGC maps. Do you guys have anything to offer the forum readers? I'm talking KGC treasure related. I think everyone agrees the KGC was a real organization and plenty can be found about them, but lets get down to the knitty gritty of KGC treasure caches. I've posted four kgc maps and I have others. What can you guys provide? Of course I think the maps are bogus, but I at least provided something that most people here on the forum didn't have.

I have lots of information to offer the forum readers.  But unlike your "information" mine is real.  Therefore I'm not interested in putting it on an internet forum.  I know you can't believe this stuff you spew.  You guys are silly.

Now how can my information not be real? It came from Jesse James III. This is the major source of KGC mega caches that so many people use as their source. The other information I post is real. This would include the hundreds of treasure signs I've posted pictures of.

So Boattow you are saying the CIA is listing bogus information and Texas Jay is using them as a verifiable source. I'm confused, which one is it?

So you have lots of real information to offer forum readers, but since it is real you're not going to do it? And this will prove to forum readers that the KGC had mega caches how? I can promise you that if I ever come across a source of true information that verifies the KGC cache theory I'd post it just to end the debate. Even though I'd have to admit I was wrong all along.

I started out looking to prove they are real but I just can't find the goods to prove it. I'm a very good researcher and there's not much I can't come up with when I start to look. There are a few people who can attest to this. I'm just the type who likes to see proof of these claims that people make.

You ask for proof that these caches don't exist and I show how Howk and Dalton were conmen. Up until I started posting information that shows them as such they were the source of KGC info. Now they've been thrown under the bus, but nobody is offering up anything new. Bob has based his reputation on the information the "black book" contains. So if he is the source often quoted and Dalton and Howk were fakes what good is a LA Times article?

Pastore flipped through the maps on the show like he had something good. Does that mean Pastore had false info as well? Boattow do you really believe the stuff you spew?

Does anyone here consider our Central Intelligence Agency a "reliable source"?   
~Texas Jay

https://www.cia.gov/library/publica...onal-publications/civil-war/p37.htm

You seem to be proving my point Jay, there is lots of information available about the KGC but absolutely none of it mentions anything about any treasures, not even small ones.

Your C.I.A. article also says that the KGC and the Sons of Liberty were two SEPARATE groups.

I have lots of information to offer the forum readers.  But unlike your "information" mine is real.  Therefore I'm not interested in putting it on an internet forum.  I know you can't believe this stuff you spew.  You guys are silly.

Well I guess that ends the debate.    You supposedly have the information to prove all of us naysayers wrong and to show without a doubt that the KGC had the mega depositories but you don't want to show it? 

After all of the arguing you've done about the depositories and vaults I would think you would jump all over being able to prove they exist. Now you're sounding just like Brewer and the rest of the true believers, you have "secret information" that no one else knows about but you can't share it with the world. And you think we are "silly"?

I certaintly wouldn't expect you to give up any big treasure secrets like how to find a depository or use the template      but if you have actual documentation that the depositories exist then what is the harm in sharing that information or even just the source of the information?

   (SUNNY out...) Recovering from a broken right ankle... surgery, 3 screws, a rod... FRIGGING "black ice"!;   AFTER the American Civil War, and the country was UNIFIED...  KGC, etc. became OAK; ORDER OF AMERICAN KNIGHTS.  NOW! Unrepentent REBELS became OUTLAWS, with MANY small caches, MOSTLY in the former "free states", and TEXAS! SOME depositories were utilized to "rebuild the SOUTH".  A NEW war began against the "Robber Barons", the FEDS... OUT WEST! "Go from there..."

Alec and 2late,
The bottom line is I could show you pictures until I was blue in the face and you would say it was faked, it wasn't KGC, or whatever your denying minds could come up with.  But what you guys do which is the same as SWR, you keep quoting the same sources that you admit you don't believe.  I guess you are right Alec, I'm not out to prove anything to anybody.  I'm just here ruffling your feathers and you guys just keep coming back for more. 
Your friend,
Boattow

[The Order is of Southern origin, being erected on the ruins of the Knights of the Golden Circle.]

Hello!  When you read the whole article you will find this:


"...About the 1st of January Vallandigham issued an address to the members of the
Golden Circle in the loyal States, in which he called upon them to renew their
vows,..."

If they were called on to "renew their vows", it doesn't sound like the organization was dead to me.   
~Texas Jay

While the KGC naysayers continue to rant and rave that the Knights of the Golden
Circle died "during the War", they never do provide a specific year or reputable
source to support this erroneous claim. Here is a newspaper article from August
3, 1864, that says "The numerical strength of this Order is said to be
considerably over half a million." This was in late 1864 so it sure doesn't
sound to me like a dying organization. The proven fact is that the KGC had
hundreds of thousands more members at the end of the War than it had at the
beginning.
~Jay~

"The Order is of Southern origin, being erected on the ruins of the Knights of the Golden Circle."

Hello? Jay?  :::knock knock::: 

Boattow, I didn't realize I was quoting any sources I didn't believe. I also don't think showing photos of markers and carvings proves the existence of a KGC depository/vault. It may prove the existence of a treasure (at least at one time) but there is no proof of who it belongs to.

That's just the way it is. Until a treasure is recovered using authentic KGC documents that say this treasrue was hidden here then you can't say who put the treasure there. There has to be a historical reference or it's just a treasure. The same goes for a JJ treasure or anybody. It can be found, but without a historical reference to the treasure you can't say absolutely that it belonged to JJ or anybody else. It's just a treasure.

You've been arguing the same argument longer than I have been arguing against it and you still can't prove the KGC depositories ever existed, no one can. Thre is no evidence that they ever existed or that the KGC even had the funds to put in the ground. In fact, all of the information out there says otherwise.

Jay, just because they wee called on to renew their vows didn't mean they did. It also doesn't mean they had any money and if renewing your vows meant paying more dues to be a member then I doubt very many did because the South and it's people didn't have any money.

Hold on there, Hoss. SWR has not been quoting any sources that I don't believe.

You are right, you believe your sources.  They are the online Texas handbook which is the scholarly and very inaccurate/incomplete history of the KGC.  Continue to believe it.
Hoss

I also don't think showing photos of markers and carvings proves the existence of a KGC depository/vault. It may prove the existence of a treasure (at least at one time) but there is no proof of who it belongs to.

Exactly my point.  No point in trying to prove anything to people who have their eyes closed and won't accept that they could be wrong. 

I can quote KGC sources all day long and none other than what originated with Houk talk of KGC mega caches. Of course I don't believe what Howk says. He was nothing more than a conman. Boattow do you believe what Houk said? If you would, please enlighten me on a source for KGC mega caches before Howk made up his grand stories.  

I also have to ask what source am I supposed to quote from? I'm the one saying that KGC mega caches don't exist and if I can't find anyone talking of them prior to Houk how am I supposed to quote a source? Shouldn't it be the ones who believe in KGC mega caches quoting their sources? Yet out of all of those who claim such things exist none have stepped forward with any verified source other than Houk. It's always a secret source, or I can't make it public kinda thing. Like Alec asked what harm would it do to list a source? Is it from a newspaper, government files, old diary, unpublished documents, or the inside cover of great great great Grandpa Smiths Bible?

If any feathers are getting ruffled I would think it's the ones who have to prove the mega caches are real that are having the hard time of it. I'm not the one making the claims. You're the one who made the claim that pictures we post on my blog are KGC, yet you haven't worked the sites. It's easy for us to prove they are nothing more than what we state they are.

You are placing the burden of proof on our shoulders when it's not our burden to bear. It belongs to the one making these wild claims.

Exactly my point.  No point in trying to prove anything to people who have their eyes closed and won't accept that they could be wrong.  

Are you kidding me?? I've already said I was wrong. I was wrong about the depositories ever existing!  

Now we get back into opinions and a place where you won't admit you may be wrong. You had said earlier that you could be 100% sure that the KGC depositories existed and I couldn't be 100% sure that they didn't. You're basing your 100% positive proof that they do exist on your interpretation of symbols and markers in the field. I can do the same thing to show the signs and markers as something else and have but that doesn't seem to be good enough for you because they don't agree with what you think.

That brings us back to you getting perturbed about people coming on the forums and other places and talking about the KGC "myths", and they are myths. You don't like it but you can't prove otherwise and that makes you exactly like me or anybody else. Until you find documented proof that even one depository exists you can't be 100% certain they do because there just isn't any proof out there, none, nada, zilch. You're talking about your opinion and not undeniable fact.

Everybody has an opinion and at this point mine is as good as yours because we both could show the same proof of two different things, all based on our own interpretations of the symbols/markers.

  (WASSAIL!)  "Google" BURIED TREASURES - ORDER OF AMERICAN KNIGHTS  554,000 "hits"; BURIED TREASURE SYMBOLS - ORDER OF AMERICAN KNIGHTS 46,900 "hits".   

Same old rehashed information, nothing new or real.

  FISHING, then?   NOW, what kinda fish, yer looking fer? 

You don't like it but you can't prove otherwise and that makes you exactly like me or anybody else.

No, not quite.  You can't prove that KGC vaults don't exist.  I can prove they do exist.  I choose not to.
Hoss

Well "Hoss", 

You have been arguing for years all over the internet that the depositories do exist and you don't like it when the naysayers like myself say they don't but instead of ponying up some proof you choose to continue the same argument over and over again, never proving their existence. Do you just like to argue?? 

Interesting what our perceptions are.  I never thought of myself as arguing all over the internet for years.  In fact I see myself until recently as mostly a lurker.  I just decided to get on here and ruffle some feathers.  I have to admit I'm enjoying it  
Take care,
Hoss
(this is for you SWR, I've never been given a nickname before)  

You are the same boattow (hoss) that was on the ALT forum aren't you? You had the same argument or debate if you want to call it that over there also. I believe you posted on the forum that you didn't agree with my interpretations of different symbols and markers that I was calling outlaw on the blog. http://okietreasurehunter.blogspot.com/

You haven't ruffled my feathers. I enjoy a good debate as much as the next guy. YOu just can't seem to win one though. 

I believe you posted on the forum that you didn't agree with my interpretations of different symbols and markers that I was calling outlaw on the blog.

I really don't recall ever commenting on your blog.  Show me if I'm wrong.

Since Whyte has changed the forum I wouldn't even know where to go look for it at. I'm pretty sure that you posted somewhere, maybe even a comment on the blog itself, that you didn't agree with the way I interpreted the symbols I posted. I'm pretty sure it was on the ALT forum though. You seem to think the outlaw symbols I see are in actuallity KGC symbols.

Still haven't got an answer......Are there any gov records, newspaper accounts, speeches or anything from that time period that mentions the KGC or OAK/SOL existing after may 1865?

Not that I know of. You can check the Congressional records but they don't have anything in them about the KGC other than what happened during the Civil War.

If you are serious about your researching you can sign up for a subscription to newspaperarchive.com (or get a buddy to who will let you use his password    ). There are lots of articles about the KGC to be found there but again, nothing after the Civil War that I have found. You can also check the New York Times archives on line for free. Still, nothing that I have found after the Civil War about the KGC.

The Sons of Liberty have several mentions after the Civil War and there are some on OAK but none of them mention any treasure.

Alec,
This is where your perception that I've been "arguing all over the internet for years" is quite skewed.  I never commented on your blog until only days ago on this forum.  I've never commented on your blog or symbol deciphering on another forum or on your blog.  Feel free to prove me wrong cause my memory isn't what it used to be but I'm pretty darn sure I'm correct.
Hoss

Walker Colt, check out gldhntr's earlier topic about the old lawyer's diary on this page.  It's dated 1866.
~Texas Jay

Still haven't got an answer......Are there any gov records, newspaper accounts, speeches or anything from that time period that mentions the KGC or OAK/SOL existing after may 1865?

Well boattow I can't seem to find the post where you talked about my interpretations. Maybe you're right, maybe I've got you confused with somebody else.

I did find this from 2008 though.

Not sure I'm understanding the connection... #4  [-]
 
Posts: 57
(02/09/08 7:26 PM)
 So let me get this straight. Two guys apparently claim to be James'. They claimed to have some connection with the KGC. You do research that would seem to expose these 2 as flakes. And now the whole KGC story is a lie as well? I think I'll stick to my own research which is quite different from yours.
Boattow 

You weren't talking about my interpretations but that was your answer to me in regards to a post about the KGC. I apologize if I was wrong about you posting on my interpretations. I still think you did though. 

You still believe Brewers book the bees knees when it comes to the KGC...or have ya grown out of it yet?

SWR, I think your memory is as foggy as Alec's.  I am pretty sure you have me mixed up with Texas Jay as he has praised the book on many occasions.  I am pretty sure I never posted anything positive about Brewer's book.  I think it is entertaining.  I think there is a nugget here and there of valid information.  It doesn't come anywhere close to equipping somone to find KGC treasure.

As for the Houk book.  I've never really formed an opinion on it.  However, coincidence or not, I used some information from it in part in finding 2 KGC sites.  As Alec stated on the forums many years ago before he went to the dark side... You get nuggets of information here and there to form your own opinions.  The vast majority of mine comes from the field.
Hoss

The dark side!!