Knights of the Golden Circle after the Civil War

I read Rebel's latest reply on swiftsearcher's "Vault" topic and decided to start this new topic where we can discuss anything about the activities and members of the Knights of the Golden Circle after the Civil War ended.  This thread can include, but is not limited to, KGC members work in Mexico and other countries, their use of other uncontroversial secret societies to continue their work without being detected, possible KGC cache and depository locations, individual Knights and their lives after the War, and almost anything else you want to discuss that is or may be directly related to the KGC after the War. 
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

   THANKS, TJ!   THAT "pic" looks like KNIGHTS OF COLUMBUS... Roman Catholic
"secret society" descended from Knights of Christ in Spain, after Knight Templars were banned; SOME of whom joined Knights of Christ in Spain... SOME, who went to SCOTLAND, and eventually became SCOTTISH RITE FREEMASONS, and in the YORK RITE FREEMASONRY, became FREEMASONIC KNIGHTS TEMPLAR (NO "connection" to the ORIGINAL K.T.).     I am not aware of KGC in "regalia" like that... COULD be wrong, tho.   I HAVE seen where TEXAS, was a HOT-BED of KGC "activities"; POST- War Between the State, I think the KGC was incorporated with the LEAGUE OF THE SOUTH... NOT sure, tho.   I think JJ, FJ, "Bloody Bill", et. al., were VERY ACTIVE in TEXAS... AND!  MOST of the counties in TEXAS, are named after SCOTTISH RITE FREEMASON! Going across "the border"
into MEXICO, was NO "problem" for CSA/KGC "connected" ppl.     

   it would be GREAT, if you guys in TEXAS could find those regalia in some "old/new shops", antiques shops, or estate sales "family history hand-me-downs"!  
   Bro. Albert Pike was a "BIGGIE" in this KGC "drama"... Reb General in S.W. during the C.W.; Scottish Rite FreeMason, who re-wrote the S.R. rituals; "active KGC" in Nashville, Tenn; "active
KGC" in Toronto, Canada; PROBABLY a REBEL "spy"; etc., etc. ANYWAY... "google" things like KGC IN CANADA; CSA SPIES IN CANADA; There is/was KGC "treasure" outside of Toronto... why Canada?  The BRIT gov't supported the CSA with a loan of BRIT $$$$$$$$$$, and CANADA is/was "BRIT"; so was/is BERMUDA!  

  it would be GREAT, if you guys in TEXAS could find those regalia in some "old/new shops", antiques shops, or estate sales "family history hand-me-downs"! 
   Bro. Albert Pike was a "BIGGIE" in this KGC "drama"... Reb General in SW. during the C.W.; Scottish Rite FreeMason, who re-wrote the S.R. rituals; "active KGC" in Nashville, Tenn; "active"
KGC" in Toronto, Canada; PROBABLY a REBEL "spy"; etc., etc. ANYWAY... "google" things like KGC IN CANADA; CSA SPIES IN CANADA; There is/was KGC "treasure" outside of Toronto... why Canada?  The BRIT gov't supported the CSA with a loan of BRIT $$$$$$$$$$, and CANADA is/was "BRIT"; so was/is BERMUDA! 

I'm working on some graphic comparisons with the photograph Jay posted above.  Hang on.

Gary

  THANKS, Gary! 

THANKS, Gary! 

Collar styles(): http://www.shootingstarhistory.com/library/shirt.html

Here is what seems to be revealed from a closer examination.  If this photograph is of the KGC then I'd get on the Internet to locate the sword from the inset graphic shown.  It has to be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars at least.  That would be a treasure!  Gary

tag 

  Gary... the guy on the right is a FreeMasonic Knight Templar, due to the "SKULL & CROSS BONES" on apron, which modern day KT (FreeMasons ) use.   KGC could have used 'em also... just don't know... I HAVE seen some KGC rituals & "Castle"; they DO look like FM Knights Templar &
Knights of Columbus... will try to find THAT in my R & I File.  

... I HAVE seen some KGC rituals & "Castle"; they DO look like FM Knights Templar & Knights of Columbus... will try to find THAT in my R & I File.   

In the search for truth and what is what please do post or send what you have.  Clues can come from anywhere.  How can I get a copy of whatever it is you have which is so revealing?  lostbutfound3@juno.com

Gary

KGC History of Secession, 1862

Knights of Columbus has a very similar sword. The hats are also similar. I have my fathers hat and sword, and sash. It isn't old, as a relic but probably late 60's.

Hi Rebel and members.  Thanks, guys, for getting this thread off to a great start.  The photograph I posted is, I firmly believe the only known photograph of a group of KGC members in their uniforms.  Henry Ford was a Presbyterian so that would have excluded him from being a Knight of Columbus.  My photograph is from a copy of the original that was found by Henry Ford's great grandson several years ago before he suddenly died after receiving a death threat shortly before. The photo attached to this message came from the Brownwood Bulletin newspaper and shows Henry Ford standing outside his bank building sometime after it was built in 1876.
~Texas Jay
 

The photograph I posted is, I firmly believe the only known photograph of a group of KGC members in their uniforms.  Henry Ford was a Presbyterian so that would have excluded him from being a Knight of Columbus.  My photograph is from a copy of the original that was found by Henry Ford's great grandson several years ago before he suddenly died after receiving a death threat shortly before. The photo attached to this message came from the Brownwood Bulletin newspaper and shows Henry Ford standing outside his bank building sometime after it was built in 1876.  ~Texas Jay

Jay, I want to be a believer.  If you're pretty sure the above is a KGC photograph then howabout associated proof and I'll take anything.  (This would put Templars, Medieval KTs, etc. into place with the ideas of gold caches.)   Could Ford have gotten it from anybody or is there any writing on the back or...

Gary

Hi Gary.  Henry Ford II (HF's grgrandson) found the original photograph hanging right here in Brownwood's Brown County Museum of History.  Henry II was extremely knowledgeable about his grgrandfather, the KGC, the Masons, and as a kid had even been in one of the KGC tunnels that lay under downtown Brownwood.  Our Bloody Bill Anderson Mystery files, message archives, photos, and links contain the largest collection of information about Henry Ford, known also as the "Mystery Man of Brownwood" available anywhere.  Henry Ford was Bloody Bill Anderson's closest confidant in Brown County, Texas after the War.  As far as proof goes, beyond this, I really don't know where to begin except to advise you to ask specific questions on our group's message board and then I can know which pieces of information to search for there.  We do know that Frank James came to town upon Henry Ford's death and told everyone that if anyone placed a marker on his grave, that he would come back and "blow it to Kingdom Come!".  We also know that Cole Younger, when he came to Brownwood, called Ford by his first name so obviously he knew him quite well from the War in Missouri.
~Texas Jay   

Hi Gary.  Henry Ford II (HF's grgrandson) found the original photograph hanging right here in Brownwood's Brown County Museum of History.  Henry II was extremely knowledgeable about his grgrandfather, the KGC, the Masons, and as a kid had even been in one of the KGC tunnels that lay under downtown Brownwood.  Our Bloody Bill Anderson Mystery files, message archives, photos, and links contain the largest collection of information about Henry Ford, known also as the "Mystery Man of Brownwood" available anywhere.  Henry Ford was Bloody Bill Anderson's closest confidant in Brown County, Texas after the War.  As far as proof goes, beyond this, I really don't know where to begin except to advise you to ask specific questions on our group's message board and then I can know which pieces of information to search for there.  We do know that Frank James came to town upon Henry Ford's death and told everyone that if anyone placed a marker on his grave, that he would come back and "blow it to Kingdom Come!".  We also know that Cole Younger, when he came to Brownwood, called Ford by his first name so obviously he knew him quite well from the War in Missouri. ~Texas Jay   

Jay,

I copied and put this into my personal research file on the KGC.  Freemasons were probably found among the KGC but at this point not exactly believing they were majority membership.

Gary

  Gary, the book, you "posted" is also one I'm looking into... ANOTHER book is NARRATIVE OF EDMUND WRIGHT: THE ADVENTURES WITH, AND ESCAPE FROM THE KNIGHTS OF THE GOLDEN
CIRCLE.   It has a "pic" of the interior of the Castle/Lodge, and the "hanging" of a guy (may be a "ritual murder", similar to 3rd Degree, Blue Lodge FreeMasons... DUNNO). NOW! In the "pic" (drawing), has the "Master", looking like King Solomon; MEMBERS of the Castle/Lodge, look like they are wearing fez-like hats and clothed like typical "military uniforms" of the C.W., Grayish in "color" (light in a Black/White "drawing"). On the wall, is the skull/cross bones between two quarter moons (facing each other). SO!  They COULD have been wearing aprons with Skull & Bones.  Will look for the KGC 2nd degree ritual, in my R & I File... LATER!  

Hi Gary.  From my thorough research in this area of Texas, I find that most of the former Quantrill's Guerrillas (KGC) that lived here after the War were indeed Freemasons as well including Henry Ford, Jason W. James (first cousin of Jesse and Frank), and Charles M. Webb.  I highly recommend a book called "Freemasonry in Brownwood" by Donovan Duncan Tidwell which documents the members of the Brownwood Lodge in the years following the Civil War and their rank.  You can use the title of the book as keywords in a messages search of our group's Messages Archives to retrieve and read important quotes from that book that I posted a few years ago.
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

Attached photo is of a state historical marker located next to Henry Ford's grave at Greenleaf Cemetery in Brownwood that I took last year.    

Better detail.

   OK, found the info... It is the FIRST DEGREE, not the SECOND;   KGC ByLaws & FIRST Degree (MILITARY) from the CASTROVILLE CASTLE.  "Google" BYLAWS OF THE CASTROVILLE CASTLE OF THE KGC    Then... "Google" MILITARY DEGREE (SHOULD be on the SAME page of Digital Library - Schreiner Edu.). 13 pages for the MILITARY Degree; there were THREE degrees, that I know of; don't have copies of TWO.  The By-Laws were 3 pages; names are mentioned!  

SWR,

I have been in e-mail correspondence with the KTs and told they know nothing of the Knights of the Golden Circle.  I've also found a Freemasons' list of every American fraternity (very complete) but there was conspicuously missing reference of the KGC .

Gary

H E L L O !

Don Jose de La Mancha

Despite Bob Brewer's critics, the fact remains that his book "Rebel Gold", co-authored by "Wall Street Journal" writer Warren Getler, is one of the best-documented sources of the direct ties between the KGC and Freemasonry in existence.  This is a quote I borrowed from the book and posted on our Bloody Bill group's message board over three years ago.
~Texas Jay

***
Information about Albert Pike from "Rebel Gold":

***

page 54 - "...Pike, born the same year as Abraham Lincoln, combined
elements from three important aspects of his life: membership in
Scottish Rite Freemasonry; political experience with the Whigs and
then with the short-lived anti-immigration, anti-black, anti-Catholic
Know-Nothings, followed by the Democratic Party; and, finally, legal
and Masonic connections with the Cherokee and other Nations in Indian
Territory (what is now Oklahoma) across the border from Arkansas.
With unprecedented speed, Pike rose through the higher ranks of the
Scottish Rite, and eventually wrote its key manifesto, 'Morals and
Dogma'. He had first become a Masonic brother in 1850 in Little
Rock, where he was initiated under the three 'Blue Lodge' degrees of
common - otherwise known as 'symbolic' or 'craft' - Masonry. (These
neophyte degrees - Entered Apprentic, Fellow Craft and Master Mason -
are stepping-stones to the higher degrees in the two main forms
or 'appendant' systems of American Masonry; the Scottish Rite and
York Rite. Most Masons today only participate in these lower, common
degrees of initiation in the fraternity and, unlike those initiated
into the advanced degrees, have no special knowledge of tightly held
secrets or ancient mysteries.) After advancing through the basic
degrees, Pike quickly received, by 1853, all ten additional degrees
of the York Rite, with its strong early-American roots in New
England. The top degree for a York Rite Mason happens to be that
of 'Knight Templar.'
Later that year, brother 'Knight Templar' Pike switched his fraternal
focus to the Scottish Rite, with its progressive thirty-third
degrees, exotic rituals, symbol of the double-headed eagle, and twin
credos of 'from chaos, order' and 'liberty, equality and
fraternity.' Formally, the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of
Freemasonry confers twenty-nine higher degrees - including that
of 'Knight Kadosh' - up to the rank of thirty-second degree for those
over twenty-one years of age. It ultimately confers a final, thirty-
third, degree as an honorary title on a select few. Members of the
Scottish Rite Supreme Council are thirty-third-degree Masons.
***

Picture is definitely Masonic KT. The KGC had nothing to do with Freemasonry. We have a pretty good list of known KGC members from the Texas Castles that were taken from Newspaper accounts and such. Very few are listed in the Returns located at the Grand Lodge of Texas.

Picture is definitely Masonic KT. The KGC had nothing to do with Freemasonry. We have a pretty good list of known KGC members from the Texas Castles that were taken from Newspaper accounts and such. Very few are listed in the Returns located at the Grand Lodge of Texas.

Walker Colt:  You make several bold, and I believe untrue statements, in this post.  Why don't the "We", you mention, share the list of the KGC from the Texas Castles, that you claim to have, with those of us participating in this discussion.  Anyone can say anything but statements are not worth a nickel without substantiation.  Does your "list" show Capt. Jason W. James, Charles M. Webb, or Henry Ford?  "Newspaper accounts" are not worth much when it comes to identifying members of a secret society.  Sure, they may have had some of the earlier members who were involved with the Confederate Western Expansion movement, because they were public record, very early in the War but they would not account for any of the many ex-guerrillas and Confederates who re-located in Texas after the War ended nor would they show any of the younger generation of KGC members who were too young to fight in the Civil War.
Thanks,
~Texas Jay 

Texas Jay,
The KGC were very active in Texas before the war with numerous accounts of them in the newspapers. As far as the list is concerned I believe it will be shown in Keehn's follow up to his article "The Strong Arm of Secession". If not I will ask him if I can post the information for you. I have been researching the ritual of the KGC and their masonic ties.

As far as post war KGC activities I have yet to be convinced of their existence. I believe the KGC died with Bickley in 1867. In 1865 Bickley denied any ties to the Order of American Knights and the Sons of Liberty.

Membership in the KGC was not part of what they kept secret as Bickley told them he wanted them to wear the emblems of the Order not unlike we in the masonic fraternity wear rings with our square and compasses emblem. The secrets they kept are mentioned in the Obligations they swore to and ritual in the 3 degrees IH, TF, and KCS.

The picture is American Masonic KT. You can buy a Templar uniform at http://www.lafsco.com/knighttemplar.html or at http://newlondonregalia.com/shop/categories/Knight-Templar/.

Every country and state has varying regulations on uniforms and swords.

  Texas Jay, The KGC were very active in Texas before the war with numerous accounts of them in the newspapers. As far as the list is concerned I believe it will be shown in Keehn's follow up to his article "The Strong Arm of Secession".  If not I will ask him if I can post the information for you.  I have been researching the ritual of the KGC and their masonic ties.

Although members of any organisation may come and go, a list of known members at any given time can't hurt for sake of providing a set time of reference.  My hope is that you will not forget to do so and this thread.

As far as post war KGC activities I have yet to be convinced of their existence. I believe the KGC died with Bickley in 1867.  In 1865 Bickley denied any ties to the Order of American Knights and the Sons of Liberty.

Some are not convinced the KGC ever existed at all. Perhaps as midwives in custody of the Pharaoh we might "not understand" how the male Hebrew children are born against direct orders.  In that year of 1865 George Washington Bickley was in federal custody if considered.

Membership in the KGC was not part of what they kept secret as Bickley told them he wanted them to wear the emblems of the Order not unlike we in the masonic fraternity wear rings with our square and compasses emblem. The secrets they kept are mentioned in the Obligations they swore to and ritual in the 3 degrees IH, TF, and KCS.

There's not a secret like a secret in the presence of imagined danger (or rarely the 1861 type). Everybody wants to show with whom they affiliate in good times but rarely in the troubled . 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KnightsoftheGoldenCircle/

Gary

The picture is American Masonic KT. You can buy a Templar uniform at http://www.lafsco.com/knighttemplar.html or at http://newlondonregalia.com/shop/categories/Knight-Templar/.
Every country and state has varying regulations on uniforms and swords.

The mylar looks a little artificial but I never cared for corafram shoes either. 

How long have the Freemasons been using the cross rayonee ?  Since what time?  This can't be too much of a secret().

Gary

WOW!!  After reading all that I guess I was wrong.  I was thinking that the dude in the middle was someone I saw on Saturday Night Live back in the 80s. 

Which middle ?

Gary

   Gary, you have a VERY nice KGC web-site... the OLD KGC ritual of the FIRST degree, ( I thought I had the SECOND), is that of the MILITARY degree from the Castroville, TX
Castle/Lodge... which ANYONE can get by "googling"  MILITARY DEGREE - KGC CASTROVILLE CASTLE.   It would be NEAT, if ppl could find KGC Regalia in Castroville, TX area "old & new shops",
antiques shops, estate sales (family history "hand-me-downs").   Where you at?  
 

   STILL doing R & I; "googled" CASTROVILLE, TX... sounds like a NICE place; a bit different from the "rest of TX", in that FRENCH (France) "influence" is indicated in "early
history".   I also read that TX had 32 Castles of the Knights of the Golden Circle, hence the term
"HOT-BED" of KGC activity.     NOW!  After the members died, supposedly on their
tombstones was the KGC CHAIN; anyone seen one?   Take a digital camera picture... and "POST" IT HERE!   Wanna see one, so I can do MORE R & I, of the "family" kind... THANKS!  
 

  Gary, you have a VERY nice KGC web-site... the OLD KGC ritual of the FIRST degree, ( I thought I had the SECOND), is that of the MILITARY degree from the Castroville, TX
Castle/Lodge... which ANYONE can get by "googling"  MILITARY DEGREE - KGC CASTROVILLE CASTLE.   It would be NEAT, if ppl could find KGC Regalia in Castroville, TX area "old & new shops",
antiques shops, estate sales (family history "hand-me-downs").   Where you at? 

Thanks, the web site is a bit nicer looking than the ever changing forum.  As it says in the forum description none are encouraged to give their name, telephone number or addresses as this would invalidate a fundamental tenant of being secret.

You'd be surprised what can be learned from old books found at the Salvation Army and thrift type stores.  The old histories are often overlooked in those places.

Gary

   True; I also go to Good Will stores in the "richer" sections of town/county; I also
TOTALLY respect yer Oath of Silence.   R & I continues for me...  

Seriously....the uniforms are of the Masonic York Rite Knights Templar, not KGC :

Thank you for pointing out the the Masonic Knights Templar are of the YORK Rite.  The conspiracy rumours abt Bro. Pike and the K.G.C. would spring from his association with the SCOTTISH Rite. 

OK Gentlemen: You now have my curiosity aroused.  I have a Ceremonial Sword that has been in the family from the 1800's  It has FCB on the reverse of the hilt,  "Fraternal order of Pythias". Any connection with the KGC?  I have found none?

I also have a contract sabre from Germany, straight blade, that was used by the southern Cavalry.  It originally had a man's initials and unit lightly cut in the brass hilt with a knife.  Unfortunately my son, wanting to keep it in a like new condition, vigorously  polished and cleaned out the "useless scratchings" , sigh.

Don Jose de La Mancha

  Yes, the "bad boys" of the SCOTTISH RITE, are "guilty as charged"!     Yet, the RAM may have been involved, in terms of BURYING/EXCAVATING "treasure"... look at the RAM signet; a CROW BAR, PICK AX, SHOVEL... with the TRIPLE TAU; going "straight down", with "chambers" to the
right & left.     NOW!   For MORE "restless days" & "sleepless nights"...

OK Gentlemen: You now have my curiosity aroused.  I have a Ceremonial Sword that has been in the family from the 1800's  It has FCB on the reverse of the hilt,  "Fraternal order of Pythias". Any connection with the KGC?  I have found none?

I also have a contract sabre from Germany, straight blade, that was used by the southern Cavalry.  It originally had a man's initials and unit lightly cut in the brass hilt with a knife.  Unfortunately my son, wanting to keep it in a like new condition, vigorously  polished and cleaned out the "useless scratchings" , sigh.

Don Jose de La Mancha

***

Don Jose, I suggest you hold onto the Pythias sword until more research can be done on the Knights of Pythias and their possible relation to the KGC.  I will be studying that question this winter in depth as one of the key players in the Bloody Bill Anderson Mystery, Henry Ford (pictured in the KGC-Brownwood photo) applied for and was granted the right to create a Knights of Pythias Lodge in Brownwood a few years before his death in 1910.  I believe the meetings were held in the old Brooke Smith and Company Bankers building (1876) which I have provided photos of in other threads on this forum.  It is the building with 10 iron five-pointed stars on the south side and five on the north side.  Total of 15 stars which were one of the primary symbols of the KGC.  15 five-point stars is also significant in KGC tradition.  Brooke Smith,  you may remember from my earlier thread, was a boy when the KGC used his family's home as a meeting place during the War.  He was from the north or "northwest" as it was called then.  A few KGC researchers have stated that the KGC used more traditional societies' lodges to hold meetings in after the War ended so as not to draw attention to themselves.
I'm posting two photos of some envelopes from the Brooke Smith Bank.  I recently acquired these for my collection.
~Texas Jay 

   For a "quickie", just "google" KNIGHTS OF PYTHIAS.   "WIKI" is good.  COULD
have been a "cover".

Jay,

In the graphic (post #9) I count 13 five-pointed stars on the crescent moon and it is a well known number.

Gary

Yes, Gary, 13 was another significant number for the KGC.  You will notice the postmark on the Brooke Smith envelopes.  The flag also has only 13 stars.  Remember, these were mailed just after the turn of the century.
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

 STILL doing R & I; "googled" CASTROVILLE, TX... sounds like a NICE place; a bit different from the "rest of TX", in that FRENCH (France) "influence" is indicated in "early
history".   I also read that TX had 32 Castles of the Knights of the Golden Circle, hence the term
"HOT-BED" of KGC activity.     NOW!  After the members died, supposedly on their
tombstones was the KGC CHAIN; anyone seen one?   Take a digital camera picture... and "POST" IT HERE!   Wanna see one, so I can do MORE R & I, of the "family" kind... THANKS!  
 

Hi Rebel.  Last fall, I began taking photographs of some of the older tombstones in Brown County cemeteries.  I've noticed several "chains" among the few that I've looked at so far but I don't know that I photographed any of them yet.  I plan to return to our town's Greenleaf Cemetery in the next few weeks so I will definitely photograph those with chains on them.  I'm thinking these chains were on tombstones for those who were members of some fraternal organization but I don't remember, offhand, exactly which organization it was.  Now, I'm going through the photos I took at Greenleaf last fall to see if I did photograph any "chain" tombstones but I did find this one for Jesse P. Couch that is interesting.  It has the Masonic symbol on it but I was struck by the exact replica of the Washington Monument that tops it. 
~Texas Jay

Yes, Gary, 13 was another significant number for the KGC.  You will notice the postmark on the Brooke Smith envelopes.  The flag also has only 13 stars.  Remember, these were mailed just after the turn of the century.
~Texas Jay http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

George Washington's headquarters flag of six-pointed stars was moved into the canton area of the Sons of Liberty flag and that became the American flag.  Star pattern (top to bottom) was 3-2-3-2-3. Probably not more significant than that.

I believe the three links of chain I.O.O.F.

Gary

OK Gentlemen: You now have my curiosity aroused.  I have a Ceremonial Sword that has been in the family from the 1800's  It has FCB on the reverse of the hilt,  "Fraternal order of Pythias". Any connection with the KGC?  I have found none?

I also have a contract sabre from Germany, straight blade, that was used by the southern Cavalry.  It originally had a man's initials and unit lightly cut in the brass hilt with a knife.  Unfortunately my son, wanting to keep it in a like new condition, vigorously  polished and cleaned out the "useless scratchings" , sigh.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Knights of Pythias were chartered by the United States congress in 1864 as a result of President Lincoln's suggestion. They are a peace driven fraternity. Doubtful they had any relation with the original KGC who wanted to conquer Mexico and establish a slave empire.

    Independent Order of Odd Fellows was established in America in 1819;
"symbol" is THREE Chains linked, with the letters "F" , "L", "T", in the center... ONE in EACH "link".   MANY "Odd Fellows" had the "LINK" put on their Tomb-stones... MY grandfather did.   
"Google" THE SOVEREIGN ORDER OF ODD FELLOWS  "Wiki" is REALLY good.   
 

  Independent Order of Odd Fellows was established in America in 1819;
"symbol" is THREE Chains linked, with the letters "F" , "L", "T", in the center... ONE in EACH "link".   MANY "Odd Fellows" had the "LINK" put on their Tomb-stones... MY grandfather did.   
"Google" THE SOVEREIGN ORDER OF ODD FELLOWS  "Wiki" is REALLY good.   
 

So what happened to the International Order of Odd Fellows.  Seems like I once saw that somewhere.

Gary

  IOOF is still "active"... saw a lodge hall, the other day.   NOT as "big", as Free
Masonry... Have the IOOF ritual from my grand father... NEVER paid any attention to it.   Also have Order of the ESSENES ritual book, which is in a "code"... seems to be VERY similar to EA, FC, MAINLY MM of "Blue Lodge FreeMasonry".   Will have to get it out, and look at it, again.  
    AND! May wanna look into TOMBSTONE SYMBOLS @ http://tn-roots.com/tndyer/cemetery/symbols.html  

    NOW!  Go to yer BIGGEST Rebel (aka CSA) cemetery and look for the "KGC CHAIN" on tombstones, there... MAY even find "Masonic" symbols.   Got a BIG one, about 15 minutes
from me... OLD CITY CEMETERY.    Beale Treasure was rumored to be buried there, also. HA! I know what I'm gonna do, the NEXT few days! 

I was telling Jay's BBA Group how to pick up, rather cheaply, some pins/buttons of an organization a day or so ago.  Below is a link to a nice Templar sword on eBay.  I typed in the keyword "Masonic Sword" to find this one and several others.  Most all of these can be had for under $500 usually on eBay.

I think Rebel mentioned the number 13 above.  This number was important in early American history, as America was/is considered the 13th Israelite Tribe - Manasseh (as evidenced by the dollar bill with the number being used in the symbology quite often on the great seal with the Eagle).  As Jay and I have been discussing via e-mail, in order to understand the KGC better, one needs to read the Bible - especially about the tribes of Israel!  There are also helpful books on this subject, if anyone wants more info. please e-mail me at joejackson1919@comcast.net.  To make it short however, Israel was the name given to Jacob by The Everlasting God.  Israel's sons were to receive "God's Promise".  Joseph was the FAVORITE and Joseph's two sons were given his "share" - thus, we have 13 tribes, instead of 12.  What many forget is that Israel was/is NOT a country as we are led to believe today, but was Jacob.  The 13 tribes refer to Jacob's sons who ended up migrating into Europe and later North America.  I believe the KGC's "purpose" for these caches were NOT for a second Civil War (that was simply a cover story in order to obtain $ and help from the Southern sympathizers).  However, the main purpose was to create a "New Jerusalem" here in the USA.

Anyway, I don't want to get too far into the Biblical aspect of this, as it creates controversy.  However, again, if anyone would like more information on some great books about this, feel free to e-mail me at joejackson1919@comcast.net and I will be glad to point you in the right direction (a website where I just received over a dozen books from, including a more precise Bible than the King James version, that the author took 50 years to complete copying word for word from the ancient texts in the early 1900's!).  This reading will definitely help you out in your KGC hunting/understanding and will be great for your spiritual side as well!



http://cgi.ebay.com/ORNATE-MASONIC-...DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1e589d928b

However, the main purpose was to create a "New Jerusalem" here in the USA.

Swiftsearcher,

I always heard it was this way--JerUSAlem.  And, then there is always G.I. Joe[seph] which I thought was pretty good.

Gary

P.S.--James 1:1--James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Gary, looks like you have hit the nail on the head!

Contrary to what most of us have been led to believe by those in control, we of European descent are NOT Gentiles!

When I first started out with all of this, I was led to believe, as were others, that the KGC's intent was probably evil.  However, the more I have delved into things, the more it seems like the KGC were actually VERY RELIGIOUS (as well as the Templars, Founding Fathers and others with this "New Jerusalem" idea)!  IF I am correct about things, the goal of these organizations is VERY NOBLE and BIBLICAL in nature!  IF these KGC caches are true and were deposited away, they were more than likely to be used to fight evil in the future (maybe even very soon), as gold will be needed since cash will be worthless!  It seems the KGC members were very aware of a future one-world government/religion/monetary system.  They also hated Bolshevists and those trying to change things for the worse, while controlling the masses with lies.  As I have stated before, the Rothschilds seem to be one of the key forces behind this world evil and, I know from research, that not only did JJ and the KGC warn us of this, but also our founding fathers.  Even Woodrow Wilson, the worst President ever, realized he made a mistake after allowing the Federal Reserve to take over the nation's printing of money!  If these Religious Men (Founding Fathers, Templars, KGC, etc.) saw this coming from studying the Bible, then it might not be far-fetched that they would hide massive amounts of Gold, as the dollar will probably be worthless at some point under this NWO control!

Here is a great website I just found by Googling to explain Manasseh and the number 13 on our Nations' great seal!

http://www.asis.com/users/stag/seal.html

A very important point needs to be made here.  That is that most of the huge treasures that were buried by the KGC, in the form of large depositories and smaller marker caches, were buried AFTER the War ended.  This dispels the arguments that the KGC could not have buried large amounts of treasure during the War while the Confederacy was facing defeat.  It also contradicts the arguments the the KGC ended "during the War".  I will be posting proof for this statement in the next few weeks in this thread.  I will not answer replies by naysayers but will gladly answer any specific questions posed by those who seriously want to know the truth. 
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

However, the main purpose was to create a "New Jerusalem" here in the USA.

Swiftsearcher,

I always heard it was this way--JerUSAlem.  And, then there is always G.I. Joe[seph] which I thought was pretty good.

Gary

P.S.--James 1:1--James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Gary, I just read a GREAT book on this entitled "Our Great Seal: The Symbols of Our Heritage & Our Destiny" by E. Raymond Capt.  I also just read another book the same author had written on Stonehenge.  Below is the link where I purchased these books and plan on purchasing every book written by this author.  These works are great, in that they not only unveil the TRUE STORY of the Israelite Tribes, but they also explain the meanings of various symbols.  This book in particular shows how the USA was Prophesied in Scripture and gives several Biblical references as to the USA being the future Israel in the Bible.  

http://www.destinypublishers.com/index.asp

PS  Gary, I LOVE your PS!  Here is another PS scripture for you, Brother!


Psalm 133
 1Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

A very important point needs to be made here.  That is that most of the huge treasures that were buried by the KGC, in the form of large depositories and smaller marker caches, were buried AFTER the War ended.  This dispels the arguments that the KGC could not have buried large amounts of treasure during the War while the Confederacy was facing defeat.  It also contradicts the arguments the the KGC ended "during the War".  I will be posting proof for this statement in the next few weeks in this thread.  I will not answer replies by naysayers but will gladly answer any specific questions posed by those who seriously want to know the truth. 
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

This is a very bold statement without any sort of validation. Opponents to this controversial claim will be waiting with bated breath!

MK 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

P.S.--James 1:1--James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.  (Gary)

Gary, I just read a GREAT book on this entitled "Our Great Seal: The Symbols of Our Heritage & Our Destiny" by E. Raymond Capt.  I also just read another book the same author had written on Stonehenge.  Below is the link where I purchased these books and plan on purchasing every book written by this author.  These works are great, in that they not only unveil the TRUE STORY of the Israelite Tribes, but they also explain the meanings of various symbols.  This book in particular shows how the USA was Prophesied in Scripture and gives several Biblical references as to the USA being the future Israel in the Bible.  http://www.destinypublishers.com/index.asp
PS  Gary, I LOVE your PS!  Here is another PS scripture for you, Brother!
Psalm 133:1--Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

Swiftsearcher, been so busy with the graphics that I'd stopped tracking this thread.  Some of these Scriptures can't be missed but only misled.  Makes sense with the whole picture.  Gary

 From my thorough research in this area of Texas, I find that most of the former Quantrill's Guerrillas (KGC) that lived here after the War were indeed Freemasons as well including Henry Ford, Jason W. James (first cousin of Jesse and Frank), and Charles M. Webb.  I highly recommend a book called "Freemasonry in Brownwood" by Donovan Duncan Tidwell which documents the members of the Brownwood Lodge in the years following the Civil War and their rank.  You can use the title of the book as keywords in a messages search of our group's Messages Archives to retrieve and read important quotes from that book that I posted a few years ago.
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery    

Jesse James' Hidden Treasure
"By the time Jesse James was killed in 1882, he'd stolen over a million and a half dollars according to some estimates--gold, coins and cash that could be worth over $50 million today. History often paints James as a clever outlaw who stole money to finance a lavish criminal lifestyle, a man whose sixteen year long crime spree came to a dramatic halt in 1882 when a fellow gang member betrayed him and shot him dead in the back of the head. But now, a treasure hunt may reveal a totally new story. Was Jesse really stealing for himself, or was he actually secreting away large sums of wealth, in order to finance one of the most clandestine secret societies in American history? Follow a team of treasure hunters searching for where he stashed his riches... and a new truth about Jesse James. Their discoveries may not only re-write the history of why Jesse stole, it could also raise new questions about his death."
Rating: TVPG
Running Time: 120 minutes
http://www.history.com/shows.do?action=detail&episodeId=502912

Monday, November 09 08:00 PM
Tuesday, November 10 12:00 AM
Saturday, November 14 05:00 PM

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Knights_of_the_Golden_Circle/

Thanks, can't wait to see it.

[By the time Jesse James was killed in 1882...]

By the time Jesse James was killed in 1882...

If nothing else...they got that part right   

I'm of that opinion too. But I don't know for sure, anymore than you do.

1995 Exhumation and DNA Tests of "Jesse James"

From:
http://genforum.genealogy.com/james/messages/43424.html 

***

The Books On Jesse James Have Not Been Closed
Posted by: Betty Duke (ID *****4377) Date: November 08, 2009 at 08:50:40
   of 43426 


Information presented in post # 42935 regarding Sue Hale's and Jesse James' mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is not accurate. If the real Jesse Woodson James' mtDNA was available it would be accurate, but unfortunately it isn't. The truth of this matter is told by an authority whose words are indisputable:

In 2001 Jim Riek interviewed John Hartman, the director of Clay County Parks at the time of the 1995 exhumation. He provided the strongest evidence yet that the 1995 exhumation smacks of cover-up:

John Hartman said on air, “Clay County property, [referring to the purported remains of Jesse James], were never returned [for reburial] and with that being the case there’s no way to repeat these tests. There’s no way they can be verified. We don’t really know the results of the first set of tests. Any good scientific work can stand peer review. The results could be published as they were found, not as they have been framed or sanitized for public consumption. The results were not presented in a convincing enough manner to close the books on Jesse James."

***

~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

Betty Duke is a friend of mine and genforum's James family forum is a traditionalist or "mainstream" ancestry.com-owned website.  Have you always been a slow learner, SWR?   
~Texas Jay

From:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery , January 19, 2008

***

From: http://moa.cit.cornell.edu/moa/browse.monographs/waro.html -
run a simple search of this site for the keywords: Knights of the
Golden Circle


It took me two and a half hours to transcribe this important Official
Record to post on this message board so I hope our members appreciate
my efforts. Please read the entire report carefully as it
explains many important things about the KGC. It also tells of their
resolve to go to any lengths to prevent the second inauguration of
Lincoln.

***


From: The War of the Rebellion Official Records
"OFFICE PROVOST-MARSHAL,
MIDDLE DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA,
Sacramento, August 10, 1864
Brig. Gen. JOHN S. MASON,
Acting Assistant Provost-Marsal-General, San Francisco, Cal.:
SIR: I have the honor to report the result of my investigations of
the secret work of the association called 'Knights of the Columbian
Star,' through Hiram Potter, one of their number. This has been a
very tedious and slow business, for the reason that the whole system
is so cloaked and guarded that but few of the members really know
anything about it. The organization, as near as I can now determine,
is as follows: There is a governor-general for the State, and a
lieutenant-governor-general for each locality, who has a deputy
lieutenant-governor-general to assist him. There are no large
meetings held of the order in their capacity as an association, but
few only of the officers and trusted members get together to initiate
new members and devise the work which is to be carried out. Potter
has only lately learned that there is a third degree, which he has
not yet obtained, but it is proposed to give it to him soon. I may
here remark that it is one of the cardinal principles of the order
that no member of an inferior degree knows of a higher until he is
prepared and expected to receive it. In the first degree, which is
called thirty-three defenders, the candidate is first examined and
[if] found to be a suitable person for their use, he is then sworn in
a solemn and imposing manner. The substance of the obligation is that
he will not support in any election or employ in business an
abolitionist if any other person can be had; that he will obey his
officers in all things; that he will resist the enforcement of any
and all unconstitutional laws by the Administration, his officers
being the judges of the unconstitutionality of the laws; that he will
furnish himself with a rifle or double-barrel shotgun if possible,
and positively to furnis a revolver pistol and bowie knife, and
always to keep on hand a supply of ammunition for a three-days hunt.
After taking this obligation they are invested with the signs,
password, and grip, to enable them to recognize their brothers and
make themselves known, which are: First, to attract attention of any
brother present, take hold of the breast of the coat or about the
third button, carrying the hands about an inch out from the body and
back twice, as if in the act of fitting the coat to your body. The
answer to this sign is to throw the left hand to the small of the
back carelessly. This satisfies the party that they are recognized,
but they will have no communication until they have been further
proved. After selecting a proper place the challenger proceeds to
prove his brother as follows: Q. 'Do you know Jones?' A. 'What
Jones?' Q. 'Preacher Jones.' A. 'Yes.' Q. 'Have you the password?'
A. 'I have.' Q. 'Will you give it to me?' A. 'That is not the way I
obtained it.' Q. 'What will you do with it?' A. 'I will divide it
with you.' Q. 'Well, you divide it, and begin.' A. 'No; you begin.'
Q. No, you begin; the word is yours.' A. 'Death.' Q. 'To.' A. 'All.'
Q. 'Traitors.' They then take hands, the questioner giving the grip,
which is given by inserting the little finger between the little
finger and the next one and then clasping the hands, the questioner
giving one shake and saying 'Right,' the answering man another shake
and saying 'Brother.' This completes the proof of each belonging to
the thirty-third or first degree, and any communication between them
is proper. So far neither man is supposed to know that any other or
higher degree exists. But for the purpose of explanation we will
suppose that they both have the second degree, or what is called the
fifty-seventh degree, meaning 'constitution.' The first hailing sign
in this degree is made by taking off the hat with the left hand,
bringing it down to the side of the head, and placing the right hand
on the top of the head in an easy, careless manner; this is answered
by taking off the hat with the left hand in the same manner. Test
sign follows: The thumb and forefinger of left hand rub the under
lip; the answer is made by touching the pit of the stomach with the
thumb and forefinger of the right hand, as in the act of holding a
pen. This having been properly answered the question may be
asked: 'Have you the password?' Upon the reply in the affirmative the
password is given with the same ceremony as before, being divided.
The word is 'Andalusia,' being divided An-da-lu-sia. The questioner
then asks, 'Have you the sacred password?' and upon an affirmative
answer the same process of getting is observed, with this difference,
that this word is lettered. The word is 'Eloi.' After this grip is
given. The right hand of each is placed together and thrust up until
each grasps the wrist of the other, and the questioner gives one
shake, saying 'Right;' the other party then reaches with the left
hand and takes the left hand of the questioner in the same manner,
giving it one shake, and says 'Brother.' This completes the proof of
membership in the second degree. There are some other signs for
special occasions. Sign of caution or danger: Place the left hand
upon the breast and raise the right vertically, the elbow as high as
the shoulders. Sign of distress: Clasp the hands together, unlocking
the fingers; raise them to the chin, saying, 'Santa Maria.' Sign of
recognition on horseback: Grasping the left breast of the coat with
left hand, giving two moves of the hand and coat about two inches and
back, the party answering salutes with right hand. There is a night
sign, made by clasping the hands and calling out 'Ho!' which is
answered by saying 'Hi!' Before being invested with these signs the
candidate is carefully examined as to his age, occupation, residence,
former place of residence, birthplace, what military service he has
done, his opinions upon the political views of the day, State rights,
slavery, the right to resist unconstitutional laws, &c. If this
examination is satisfactory, he is sworn. The oath is very long and
elaborate. The substance only can be given, which is to resist the
election of Lincoln for President by all possible means, including
the force of arms; to adhere to and obey the call of the governor-
general of the State or the lieutenant-governor-general of your
district in all cases and at all times; that you will resist any and
all unconstitutional laws by the Administration; that you will adhere
to and support the old State rights doctrines and the right of each
State to protect itself, and assist it to carry out the right to
maintain slavery or any other domestic institution to which it is
entitled, by force of arms if necessary; that you will resist with
arms any attempt upon the part of the U.S. authorities to execute any
unconstitutional law of any kind or character, your officers being
the judges of the unconstitutionality. In addition to this, Potter
says he has ascertained that there is a third degree, and has the
promise of having it conferred upon him. Beriah Brown, editor of the
Press in San Francisco, is the present governor-general of the State;
C.L. Weller, who has lately been arrested, is lieutenant-governor-
general of the State, or of the district of San Francisco; not
certain as to the extent of his jurisdiction. It is contemplated to
elect a governor-general of the Pacific Coast, including Nevada
Territory and Idaho, who shall have the general supervision of the
order. Joseph P. Hoge, of San Francisco, is talked of for that
position. This will not be done until after the nomination at the
Chicago Convention, when a meeting of the governors and lieutenant-
governors is to be held at some point not yet known. Each member of
the order pays money into the treasury, and when parties cannot get
arms for themselves they are to be furnished by the society, the
intention being that every man who is with them shall be armed for
instant service when required by his officers. They only make one
member of the fifty-seventh degree for from three to seven of the
thirty-third degree, and it may well be imagined that the third
degree is still less in number than the second and still more
dangerous, all the power resting in a small council or single
governor. The officers in the Sacramento district are: General J.L.
English, lieutenant-governor-general; J.C. Goods, deputy; Thomas
Edwards, secretary, and A.A. Bennett, treasurer. Ex-Governor John
Bigler is a prominent member, and has lately left as a delegate to
the Chicago Convention; he is reported as having carried $160 in
money to be delivered to the rebel sanitary fund; the money was sent
from here to Maggie Perry, in San Francisco, to be delivered to
Bigler there. John R. Ridge, at present of Nevada City, was a
traveling agent of the order, and is now an officer in the Nevada
district. Doctor Fox, of San Francisco, is one of the most active
agents of the order in the State. He estimates that there are 24,000
men at present in the order and reliable for their purposes, and that
this order, with the Knights of the Golden Circle and the men they
can control, will reach 50,000. The actual number is very hard to
arrive at by any one below the head of the order, or a general agent,
as the utmost secrecy prevails between all its parts, and all are
subject to the power of an officer whom they do not know. Amongst
themselves it is freely talked of that there will be war in
California; they expect it and are all the time providing for it.
General J.L. English here talks peace, and the other officers and
prominent men say he is an old fogy and afraid he will lose his
property. Whenever they feel strong enough to make resistance to the
laws they intend to do it. This seems to be the tendency of all the
circumstances that come to my knowledge, and their conversation
reported by Potter will bear no other construction. There is also a
regular system of raising money to be transmitted East under pretense
of giving to the rebel sanitary for rebel prisoners. Since I reported
to you that trouble was expected in San Francisco at the time of the
meeting an order has been issued by Governor Brown (as is reported)
that all Democrats cease to carry arms until further orders, but to
have them always ready where they can find them. In relation to the
arms heretofore spoken of, the only further information we have been
able to gain is that the muskets, 'about 1,000,' were under the
control of Don Juan de Dias, a Mexican, who disappeared about two
weeks since, and whether the arms went with him or not cannot be
ascertained. The result of my observation is that the secret
political organization is very powerful and very dangerous. Second,
that the moving power which controls it is in sympathy with and
acting for the benefit of the Southern rebellion. Third, that it is
most important now to ascertain exactly who they are and what they
are doing. Fourth, that more men should be employed in this service
unknown to each other, so that their information may be compared.
Almost any man who takes upon himself these obligations is more or
less unreliable to us, and I do not feel safe in relying altogether
upon one man, more especially as I have some reason to believe that
he does not push his inquiries as fast as he might, or else keeps
back something that he ought to inform us of.
I submit, then, this matter to you, in addition to what I have
heretofore reported, for your consideration and advice.
I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant.
ROBERT ROBINSON,
Captain and Provost-Marshal."


***

~Texas Jay

Again, not to be a cloud of rain on a sunshiny day, but:

A very important point needs to be made here.  That is that most of the huge treasures that were buried by the KGC, in the form of large depositories and smaller marker caches, were buried AFTER the War ended.

What was left in tact after the war war utterly destroyed during reconstruction.  There was mass poverty.  The only folks who didn't surrender were living in Mexico in poverty.  Folks had to keep their rifles hidden - as it was against the law to have one for a long time.  The Union occupied every major city and constantly harassed the rural area's.  It was basically a state of Martial Law for a long time.

When B. Forrest started the Klan, it wasn't long before the Union came down on them - if you check your history, they were told if they didn't turn in their rifles and disband, the wrath of the Union was going to come down on them.  I lived 20 miles from where the Klan was started for 12 years, so I know a little about that.

It wasn't like there was access to a lot of cash to hide after the war, especially in the South.  The whole reconstruction deal was meant to devastate the South so that they could NOT rise up again, because they wouldn't have either the money or the weapons.

Many of the Generals, including Lee, lost everything during the war.  All the wealth was depleted, or stolen by the North.

So my question is - where did these " treasures" come from after the war? 

Again, not to be a cloud of rain on a sunshiny day, but:

A very important point needs to be made here.  That is that most of the huge treasures that were buried by the KGC, in the form of large depositories and smaller marker caches, were buried AFTER the War ended.

What was left in tact after the war war utterly destroyed during reconstruction.  There was mass poverty.  The only folks who didn't surrender were living in Mexico in poverty.  Folks had to keep their rifles hidden - as it was against the law to have one for a long time.  The Union occupied every major city and constantly harassed the rural area's.  It was basically a state of Martial Law for a long time.

When B. Forrest started the Klan, it wasn't long before the Union came down on them - if you check your history, they were told if they didn't turn in their rifles and disband, the wrath of the Union was going to come down on them.  I lived 20 miles from where the Klan was started for 12 years, so I know a little about that.

It wasn't like there was access to a lot of cash to hide after the war, especially in the South.  The whole reconstruction deal was meant to devastate the South so that they could NOT rise up again, because they wouldn't have either the money or the weapons.

Many of the Generals, including Lee, lost everything during the war.  All the wealth was depleted, or stolen by the North.

So my question is - where did these " treasures" come from after the war? 

You don't understand just how much money those old guys made from slave labour, do you? Yes, poverty existed and it was extreme, but not for all, at least before the War.

You don't understand just how much money those old guys made from slave labour, do you? Yes, poverty existed and it was extreme, but not for all, at least before the War.

Yes - before the war the South was wealthy, but not after.

He stated they hid all this wealth AFTER the war ended.  I was just wondering where all that wealth came from after the war, as the South was in ruins, both psychically and economically.

As a defeated confederacy, they were not getting any loans from foreign governments, they had nothing left themselves, Jeff Davis didn't have that much with him, and except for some he tucked away, it is accounted for.  (except for about 3/4 of a million one of his old generals accused him of having - but hey - outside of one guy - there is no evidence he had that much)

Jesse James wasn't superman - even if the theories that have him neck deep in KGC are true, he could not have possibly stolen that much to fill all these vaults.

So again I ask, after the war, where did they get all the money to hide in these vaults?

You don't understand just how much money those old guys made from slave labour, do you? Yes, poverty existed and it was extreme, but not for all, at least before the War.

Yes - before the war the South was wealthy, but not after.

He stated they hid all this wealth AFTER the war ended.  I was just wondering where all that wealth came from after the war, as the South was in ruins, both psychically and economically.

As a defeated confederacy, they were not getting any loans from foreign governments, they had nothing left themselves, Jeff Davis didn't have that much with him, and except for some he tucked away, it is accounted for.  (except for about 3/4 of a million one of his old generals accused him of having - but hey - outside of one guy - there is no evidence he had that much)

Jesse James wasn't superman - even if the theories that have him neck deep in KGC are true, he could not have possibly stolen that much to fill all these vaults.

So again I ask, after the war, where did they get all the money to hide in these vaults?

Where did the money go? Whatever your answer, I don't think you can say that it ALL went that way, as some of those guys were extremely wealthy. I don't think they hid money in every town, and certainly not billions, but I don't doubt some was buried. I've never heard of anyone ever finding large KGC caches, but I have heard of smaller finds.  
You seem to be focused on the famous only, but there were thousands of rich farmers in the south, and it's not unreasonable that some of them hid money. Were any of these farmers KGC members?

I don't think anybody doubts that the farmers and others may have buried some of there own personal money but just becasue somebody may have been a member of the KGC and buried their own personal money doesn't mean they were burying money FOR the KGC. It simply means they were trying to keep what they had safe.

I can't believe Brewer's book is being quoted as a reference. There's so much bad information in there why would you want to quote anything out of the book? You would be better off quoting the original sources if you wanted to have any real significance.

The original photo at the top of this thread is of the Knights of Pythia/Pithias, however it's said.

OK. No evidence of post war KGC here but it does that they are not quite forgotten by some.   

"Woman Who Left Citadel Says Klan Was Glorified - New York Times
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?
res=9E06E7D9153CF93BA35755C0A961958260&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Woman Who Left Citadel Says Klan Was Glorified - New York Times
Published: June 8, 1997

The former cadet, Jeanie Mentavlos, said she had been hazed because
she could not answer a question about the Knights of the Golden
Circle, a faction of the Klan.

''For two weeks straight, I sat there in front of a full plate of
food and I was not allowed to eat because I didn't know who they
were,'' she said. ''There was a certain degree of obsession for the
K.K.K.''

Her interview will be broadcast on ''60 Minutes'' on Sunday.

CBS said cadets at The Citadel had glorified Nazi and Klan symbols
for decades. The network plans to show photographs and videotapes
that it says show Nazi paraphernalia at the college.

A Citadel lawyer, Dawes Cooke, warned the network that any portrayal
of The Citadel, a state-supported military school, in a false
light ''will be met with swift and strong action.'' A Citadel
spokesman had no comment.

The Citadel's interim president, Clifton Poole, has ordered that an
investigation of the school's mottos and symbols be completed by
Sept. 1.

Four female cadets started at The Citadel in fall 1996; Ms. Mentavlos
and another woman quit, saying they had been hazed and harassed. They
did not mention Nazi symbols in depositions that have been made
public. Another cadet, Petra Lovetinska, said she was not aware of
any Nazi paraphernalia at the school."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Knights_of_the_Golden_Circle/

You seem to be focused on the famous only, but there were thousands of rich farmers in the south, and it's not unreasonable that some of them hid money. Were any of these farmers KGC members?

Hi KK,

I am only asking, because the original statement was alluding to large treasure vaults being hidden after the war, not during, not before, but after.

And I don't believe TJ is talking about mason jars with some coins in them.

Yes, folks buried their stuff for safekeeping.  Entire towns would bury their valuables if they were in Shermans path.  And a lot of those cashe's are probably still there to be found.  Probably a lot of them belonged to the KGC.  But does that mean their stash was a KGC treasure?

If I were a boy scout, an buried some gold in the back yard for safe keeping, would that now be considered a boy scout treasure? 

Same way of looking at it.  Under this logic, everything hidden from 1860 to now could be considered a KGC treasure, and that is unrealistic.

So all I am asking about is the where the wealth come from that was allegedly buried after the war, that makes up these large vaults?  As that is what the original statement alluded to.

It is really easy to make claims or statements about things.  But you should have something to back it up that is traceable in fact.  Something besides old Houk saying they are there.  He had the maps, and he couldn't find any of it.

Hi C - you post mention the clan and NAZI symbols - which would not be the original Klan.  The latter day Klan had nothing to do with the original.  Except maybe the pointy white hats.  The original Klan wasn't around for very long.  Bedford Forrest is very traceable during and after the Klan period, right up to his death.  He wasn't running around burying treasure.  Anything the Klan did after the turn of the century is not KGC related.

The original photo at the top of this thread is of the Knights of Pythia/Pithias, however it's said.

Masonic KT, they are wearing Templar baldrics.

Not trying to argue, just repeating what I read.  That EXACT same photo is in the Kansas Historical Society records as being the Knights Pythias and it is listed as a meeting that took place in Kansas. I have seen the same photo show up in Louisiana, also as a meeting that took place there.

Not trying to argue, just repeating what I read.  :hello: That EXACT same photo is in the Kansas Historical Society records as being the Knights Pythias and it is listed as a meeting that took place in Kansas. I have seen the same photo show up in Louisiana, also as a meeting that took place there.

I know you're also wondering, like the rest of us, how the exact same picture can be taken in Brownwood, Texas, Kansas and Louisiana.

Of course I am. If it was in a newspaper that would be one thing but the Historical Society has an origninal print of the photo. You would like to think that the historical society had their facts right but you never know. Sometimes history is consider to be what people say it is and not what it actually was.

The Knights of Pythias had different regalia.

http://www.wyomingtalesandtrails.com/cambria1a.html

Charter Class, Knights of Pythias, Cambria, 1893, photo by George R. Shane. Lower left, Episcopal Church, Cambria
 
"Social life was, thus, filled by fraternal lodges. In Cambria there were three, the Improved Order of Redmen, Odd Fellows, and Knights of Pythias. Seated in the front row are the installing officers representing the Grand Lodge. Included among the installing officers from Deadwood Lodge No. 5, K. of P., are Edward McDonald, Solomon Star, J. F. Edmonds, Robert Brown, and James Harris. The members of the Lodge are outside the public hall. The Hall housed, in addition to a lodge and meeting room on the second floor, a gymnasium and a pool hall. McDonald, Secretary of the Deadwood Lodge, was engaged in the saddlery business and served a mayor of Deadwood City for two terms and Sheriff of Lawrence County, Dakota Territory. It is alleged that during his term as sheriff he never had to draw his gun. He did, however, have to leap off a speeding train to catch on foot an escaping lunatic.

Solomon Star was not only active in the Knights of Pythias, but was a 33rd Degree Mason and served as the first Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Montana. Additionally, he was the first Exalted Ruler of the Deadwood Elks Lodge and was a member of the Ancient Order of United Workmen. The Ancient Order was founded in 1868 and provided in addtion to the fraternity of lodges, life insurance benefits to its members. By 1895, the Order had more than 318,000 members. By 1948, the insurance became the dominating factor in the operation of the Order, thus, the Order changed its name and became an insurance company in name as well as fact. Solomon was a partner of Seth Bullock in Deadwood and served for twenty years as Clerk of Courts of Lawrence County. He also served as mayor of Deadwood City.

J. F. Edmonds at the time of the photo was a Past Grand Chancellor and Past Grand Prelate of the Dakota Territory Grand Lodge of the Knights of Pythias. A year later in 1894, Delaware Tribe No. 3 of the Improved Order of Redmen was instituted."

Purported regalia of the KGC.

If the Bavarian Illuminati were to exist today you wouldn't find them listed in the phone book as the Illuminati, they just couldn't get their work done.  Surely IF the KGC were still operating they would not be publicly identifiable as the KGC. Here are a couple of sites were someone by that name does turn up though.

Knights of the Golden Circle - A small Tennessee Klan group
Anti-Defamation League
http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/kkk/active_group_2006.asp?
LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=4&item=kkk
Ku Klux Klan - Active Groups (by state)
Tennessee
Knights of the Golden Circle - A small Tennessee Klan group.

+++

New Templar Castle Chartered 
Templar Castle
http://www.southern-cherokee.com/cokgc.html

The Christian Order of the Knights of the Golden Circle chartered the
Templar Castle of the Knights of the Golden Circle on October 13th,
2007 to commemorate the 700th anniversary of the arrest and persecution
of the Knights Templar in France by King Philip. The investure of seven
castle officers and the signing of the charter took place in the County
of http://www.southern-cherokee.com/cokgc.html

Yeah I wouldn't put to much faith in that drawing from Dr. Hiatt's expose`published by C.O. Perrine. He had an axe to grind. Some believe he wrote the narrative of Edmund Wright also. Lots of similarities in the writing style. Can't forget his duel with Sir Ass and trap doors and the such....

Usually at the back of those books they include the ritual of the KGC which is from the Louisville Journal based on Pomfrey's expose`. Which we know to be accurate from the Union army dispatches. Based on that I would have to say Pomfrey is a more reliable source on the regalia of the KGC although its less romantic.

According to Pomfrey they wore blue flannel shirts, over vest and pantaloons. Officers were distinguised from eachother by the color of sash they wore and how they wore it (waist or shoulder). Also they carried a sword or musket based on there office in the castle.

ok here we go the founding fathers of our country most were masons we all agree on that ok now a lot of people say that the nights templar became the masonic temple yes ok now as time went on the masons started to spread through out the us  ok we can agree on that so whats to say that a large member portion of the kgc coulndt be fremason  some of the kgc hand signs are the same as free mason wont say which ones and the free masons are a older orginazation than the kgc so whats to say that some free masons and some nights of columbis who is also older than the kgc didnt start  the kgc there were a lot of southern catholics the masons were christian all believed in GOD start a group and call it the knights of the golden circle ok here we go again knights templar french catholic hence knights of columbus also catholic  knights templar hence free masons  and the oh so pbvious the skull and cross boners they were christian and catholic  that leads us to the  kgc  all of theses gruops were secret orders based on religion politics and the millitary  WOW HOLY CRAP THEY ALL USED SOME SORT OF PATHCHES AND HAND SHAKES THAT ALL WERE THE SAME ONE WAY OR THE OTHER  FMKOCSCBKGC  THEY ALL USED THE SAME INSIGNAS HANDSHAKES AND SOME FORM OF THE SAME NAME IN THE TITLE OF THIER SECRET GROUP WOW.

None of those groups were secret Orders.  Some of them do keep secrets - not the same thing.

To assume they are all connected because of secret handshakes, then I guess my fort when I was 10 would have been KGC as well.

This is why no one finds anything.  Making connections where none exist.  If just the ones that connect were followed - oh well, that would take the fun out of it.

I don't think anybody doubts that the farmers and others may have buried some of there own personal money but just becasue somebody may have been a member of the KGC and buried their own personal money doesn't mean they were burying money FOR the KGC. It simply means they were trying to keep what they had safe.

You seem to be focused on the famous only, but there were thousands of rich farmers in the south, and it's not unreasonable that some of them hid money. Were any of these farmers KGC members?

Hi KK,

I am only asking, because the original statement was alluding to large treasure vaults being hidden after the war, not during, not before, but after.

And I don't believe TJ is talking about mason jars with some coins in them.

Yes, folks buried their stuff for safekeeping.  Entire towns would bury their valuables if they were in Shermans path.  And a lot of those cashe's are probably still there to be found.  Probably a lot of them belonged to the KGC.  But does that mean their stash was a KGC treasure?

If I were a boy scout, an buried some gold in the back yard for safe keeping, would that now be considered a boy scout treasure? 

Same way of looking at it.  Under this logic, everything hidden from 1860 to now could be considered a KGC treasure, and that is unrealistic.

So all I am asking about is the where the wealth come from that was allegedly buried after the war, that makes up these large vaults?  As that is what the original statement alluded to.

It is really easy to make claims or statements about things.  But you should have something to back it up that is traceable in fact.  Something besides old Houk saying they are there.  He had the maps, and he couldn't find any of it.

Well, you guys seem to be making a lot of positive statements too. How can you be so sure that some of those rich old KGC members didn't pool their wealth and hide it? You said that one man claimed Jeff Davis had a large sum of money, but "except for that account" we have no proof. How is it you can pick and choose what to accept as evidence? Like I said, I don't think they hid millions in every town, and the smaller caches were probably the norm, and more likely to be found. But if some believe otherwise, how does that hinder me?

If the Boy Scouts had a common reason for hiding that gold in the back yard, then I would say it's a good possibility that it is a Boy Scout treasure.

"Rich old KGC members" ? Which ones would that be? I wasn't aware anybody had a roster of all of the KGC members.

Again, I don't think anybody is disputing the fact that there are caches out there and some may have even been put in the ground by people who were once affiliated with the KGC. This does not make it a KGC cache, just a cache of personal money/items. I think TN's anology about the Boy Scouts stands true.

I think the big dispute here is about the alleged "depositories" that supposedly contain thousands of pounds of silver and gold. How does any of this hinder you? That would depend on what you are trying to do.

It seems the majority of the people here want to be left alone in their own beliefs and if what the believe is true then great and if it's not they don't want to know about it. Sounds a little strange to me as a treasure hunter but to each his own.

Good luck!

[I don't think]

"Rich old KGC members" ? Which ones would that be? I wasn't aware anybody had a roster of all of the KGC members.

Again, I don't think anybody is disputing the fact that there are caches out there and some may have even been put in the ground by people who were once affiliated with the KGC. This does not make it a KGC cache, just a cache of personal money/items. I think TN's anology about the Boy Scouts stands true.

I think the big dispute here is about the alleged "depositories" that supposedly contain thousands of pounds of silver and gold. How does any of this hinder you? That would depend on what you are trying to do.

It seems the majority of the people here want to be left alone in their own beliefs and if what the believe is true then great and if it's not they don't want to know about it. Sounds a little strange to me as a treasure hunter but to each his own.

Good luck!

YOU don't think... You wouldn't want someone to take away your right to think, now would you? Would you want someone to hound you for what you think?

To each his own is correct. Live and let live, hunt and let hunt.

There are a few internet fan based KGC sites on the web.
By far the most expansive of these are the ones created by Gary Smith
or are associated with him.
For a list of these sites with a brief history see below:
(Note that this list was compiled October 2009 and the numbers may not be current
nor does the editor concur that these represent any authenctic + Order of the KGC +)

KnightsoftheGoldenCircle · Knights of the Golden Circle
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KnightsoftheGoldenCircle/
Members: 151
Category: Confederates
Founded: Oct 9, 2008

KGCResearchandManagers · KGC Research and Managers Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KGCResearchandManagers/
Members: 8
Category: Confederates
Founded: Nov 8, 2008

KGCMC (Bikers - Now defunct)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KnightsofGoldenCircleMC/
Category: Confederates
Founded: Jan 3, 2009

KGCConfederateRaiders · KGC Confederate Raiders
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KGCConfederateRaiders/
Members: 14
Category: Confederates
Founded: Jan 8, 2009

KnightsoftheGoldenCircle100 · Knights of the Golden Circle 100
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KnightsoftheGoldenCircle100/
Members: 11
Category: Confederates
Founded: Feb 3, 2009

KnightsoftheGoldenCircle120 · Knights of the Golden Circle 120
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KnightsoftheGoldenCircle120/
Members: 7
Category: Confederates
Founded: Feb 3, 2009

ConfederateChicagoCSA · Confederate Chicago CSA
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ConfederateChicagoCSA/
Members: 4
Category: Living History
Founded: Mar 7, 2009

KGC4Dixie Home
KNIGHTS OF THE GOLDEN CIRCLE DOWNLOAD PAGE
http://kgc4dixie.wetpaint.com/
Members: 6
First activity: Aug 9 2009

Knights of the Golden Circle (KGC)
http://kgcdixie.com/
NEW PHPBB FORUM:
http://kgcdixie.com/kgcforumhtml/index.php
Total posts 75 • Total topics 24 • Total members 30

KGC4Dixie Web Page
http://kgc4dixie.webs.com/

KnightsoftheGoldenCircle4Dixie · Knights of the Golden Circle 4Dixie
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KnightsoftheGoldenCircle4Dixie/
Members: 2
Category: Confederates
Founded: Aug 15, 2009

KGCWear
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KGCWear
Members: 5
Category: Confederates
Founded: Aug 25, 2009

There are no links, files or photos and there is but one message from Sept.
2009.

KGC4Dixie MySpace.com
Knights Golden circle
http://www.myspace.com/kgc4dixie
Created Aug 31, 2009
Knights of the Golden Circle has 86 friends

http://knightsofthegoldencircle.blogspot.com/
Created September 12, 2009
There are no followers yet
Profile Views 6

Two other internet fan based groups that previously existed but are now defunct were:

newUNITED_NORTH_SOUTH_KNIGHTSoftheGOLDENCIRCLE · UNITED KNIGHTS of the GOLDEN CIRCLE
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newUN...ORTH_SOUTH_KNIGHTSoftheGOLDENCIRCLE

Description
for the preservation of american principles and sovereignty from external
aggression and influence,by communist/socialist/marxist/leninist/maoist
doctrines and philosophies...to uphold American sea and land routes of
import/export channels
2.the preservation of U.S.BORDERS.SEA SHIPPING LANES AND FREE TRADE AGREEMENT
NATIONS WITHIN THE "GOLDEN CIRCLE" INCLUDING THE GULF OF MEXICO,AND CARIBBEAN

Group Information
Members: 1
Category: Politics
Founded: Oct 21, 2008

and

UNITED NORTHERN/SOUTHERN KNIGHTS OF THE GOLDEN CIRCLE - now defunct-
formerly existed as an MSN group. It's last homepage read:

"WELCOME MEMBERS OF THIS OUR "BROTHEROOD" IN THE "ANCIENT AND ACCEPTED
RITES"...I WELCOME YOU INTO THIS RANK AND FILE..OUR PURPOSE FOR CREATING THIS
MSN SITE, IS TO PROMOTE THE AMERICAN "QUALITY WAY OF LIFE" AND THE PRESERVATION
OF AMERICAN NORTHERN/SOUTHERN UNITY FROM THE INFILTRATION OF HOSTILE COMMUNIST
SOCIALIST DOCTRINE AND PROGRAMS,...AND TO PRESERVE OUR UNITED STATES GULF OF
MEXICO, CARIBBEAN SEA IMPORT/EXPORT LANES AND BOUNDERIES, OUR MAIN AREA OF
OPERATIONS ARE KNOWN AS THE "GOLDEN CIRCLE" AND WE ARE THE MAJORITY "19"
SOUTHERN CONFEDERATE STATES , THE CARIBBEAN ISLANDS , MEXICO, PARTS OF CENTRAL
AMERICA, HONDURAS, CUBA, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC, PUERTO RICO...THIS ORGANIZATION HAS
BEEN RECOGNIZED AS THE "KNIGHTS OF THE GOLDEN CIRCLE" ...BUT NOW A MODERATION
HAS BEEN ADDED, OUR NORTHERN AMERICAN BROTHERS...WHICH IS NOTHING NEW, AND IN
FACT OLD AS THE "ORIGINAL ORGANIZATION" OF THE GOLDEN CIRCLE, MY NAME IS "RAVEN"
AND I AM THIS BRANCHES CHAPTER MANAGER AND GRANDMASTER, I HOLD A "33" OF THE
"ANCIENT AND ACCEPTED RITES" ...I WILL ON A TIME TO TIME BASIS MAINTAIN THIS
BRANCH INFORMED ON CURRENT EVENTS, ...YOU ARE WELCOMED TO JOIN THIS GROUP, BE
RESPECTFUL TO OTHERS WHILE YOU ARE HERE OR YOU WILL BE BANNED ENTIRELY FROM THE
GROUP....FOR THE MANAGEMENT OF THIS GROUP I HAVE INSTALLED "KING-FISHER " AS MY
MODERATOR AND MANAGER OF THIS "GOLDEN CIRCLE" SITE...HE WILL BE MY "O.I.C "IN
CHARGE TO MAINTAIN CONTACT WITH ALL OF YOU....THANK YOU AGAIN AND WELCOME TO THE
"UNITED NORTHERN/SOUTHERN KNIGHTS OF THE GOLDEN CIRCLE".....signed "RAVEN""

I found an article in the NYT archives a few years back about it.  One lone General, out of everyone around Davis at the end, said that Davis had I think it was 1 Million when they fled.  He could not account for about 3/4 of it, and after the war was demanding, maybe during the trial, to know what Davis did with the remaining 3/4 of a million.  Been a while so I son't remember the details, but you are free to search their archives for it.

Bottom line is, it never gained any tracking back then, I believe everyone thought this General had a big chip on his shoulder.   No one else could verify his claims, And Davis didn't even bother to respond to them.

So I you can decide for yourself, I suggest you find the article in the archives before making any conclusions that Davis hid 3/4 of a Million during his escape.  If it was just the ranting of one disgruntled General, there may not be any truth to it.  I could not find it ever mentioned again anywhere.  Maybe you'll have better luck finding more information.

I think Alec and I would both love for the KGC mega vaults to be true, I know I would.  We just can't find any credible evidence of them.  It's really easy to say "rich southerners", Ok, which "rich Southerners"?  It is easy to say they "buried these massive treasures after the war", fine, who buried them?  And where did the money come from?  

I have been running down tales for years,  gold in my wide eye's, only to find the real evidence points to the tales being bogus.

Small cashes definitely.  Some big ones where an entire town buried their valuables before the town was razed and ever one killed, yes.  I actually think there is a lot of these still out there, pretty sure I know where one of these is, and it is a BIG alleged KGC legend.  Can't get at it, so move on to the next.  Very unhelpful landowner there now.  Following KGC legends took me there.

Now since the town buried it, and members of the town were likely KGC, does it now become a KGC treasure?  To me no, you may see it differently.  

If the confederates loot a town and bury the goodies because they realistically can't be marching around carrying all that stuff, is that now a KGC treasure?  Many soldiers were members after all. Again, to me no, but you may see it differently.

Let me modify my question:  The boy scout motto is Be Prepared

I am a good boy scout, and to me being prepared means burying my allowance ( which I get in gold because my folks are survivalists) in the back yard, so does that make it a boy scout treasure?

I'm not picking and choosing facts, but if the facts lead nowhere, there is no reason to pursue them, unless new information comes up.  Unless anything besides one General claims Davis had more money, than I suspect he didn't.  Even if he did, I doubt if he left it for the "cause"  A lot of the treasury was spread out amongst the starving soldiers in GA before Davis was captured.  How much no one is certain, as they were basically tossing money off the train to guys.  History is your friend.

You're saying that money was given out in GA, etc...then you ask "what money?" "Who was the rich old guys?" I suspect that if you know who gave the money to GA, etc., then you'll know who the rich old guys were and where the money came from. Were they KGC members? I don't know. If they were KGC members, does that mean they hid large amounts of money in vaults? No. Is it possible they did? I think so. You said whole towns buried money in a common place. Why would it be impossible for a group which had so much in common to have done the same thing? I'm not a KGC hunter and don't know that much about it, but I do know a little bit about caches, and I know that cache hunting goes largely on possibilities. History is indeed my friend. I have proved (to myself, at least) the existence of a cache by searching historical records.

comparing a kids club to the kgc koc  kt scb is ludicris it is just a opinion stated though but the hand shakes hand signs and a whole lot of similarities of uniforms regelia and signs makes me think pretty damned close to being the same associated  just my opinion but before you call me wrong look at pictures of all 4 groups  very very similar and yes they are all secret societys every one knows who they are but only members are allowed in to the temples ,castles and lodges during ceremony if you anit a member just try and get in

Olpossum sez:

and yes they are all secret societys every one knows who they are

Then they are not a secret if everyone knows who they are.

You nee a card to get into Costco, does that make them a secret society too?  Not everyone is allowed in.

comparing a kids club to the kgc koc  kt scb is ludicris

No, the concept that every group that uses special handshakes are KGC related is ludicrous, as was alluded to in a previous post.

Kentucky K sez:

You're saying that money was given out in GA, etc...then you ask "what money?" "Who was the rich old guys?" I suspect that if you know who gave the money to GA,

You misunderstood what I said.

The train carrying what little was left of the Confederate treasury, was handing out money to the starving soldiers that were surrounding and accosting the train at a stop.  There were no “rich old guys” giving out money, And they did not give it to GA. 

It was handed out by the men on Jefferson Davis's train as he made his escape, and only to the soldiers that accosted his train at a stop.  And it wasn't because of generosity, it was because they were afraid the starving soldiers would seize the train and murder them.  They were fearing for their lives at the time, and that is why they started handing out money.  It quieted the angry mob, and allowed them to continue.,

I don't know of any “rich Guys” giving out money or hiding it for the KGC, or anyone else for that matter.

I hope that clears it up.

Cache hunting does go on “possibilities”, you are right.  And as you yourself said, research goes a long way to either validate your hunch, or  or make you decide it either isn't there, or has already been found.

My point is not every cache made in the south from 1860 on is related to the KGC.  I don't know why that is such a hard concept for some to grasp, but oh well.

And I am still waiting for Texas Jay to enlighten me on where AFTER the war all these grand treasures came form that he says were hidden, AFTER the war.  Which was my question in the first place.

I know the KGC survived for a while after the war.  I have ancestors who were members.  But I think by 1880 it was pretty much a done deal. 

i wish they would have left some crytpic clues for me to follow to find their goodies!  But, as far as I know, they didn't leave much to be found.

One of them did ride with Quantrill, and became good enough friends with the James to be part of the gang in the early years, ans would ride with them from time to time til the late 1870's.

Stayed in touch with them, and went to at least one of the Raider reunions that I could find proof of.

But there's no family legends of old buried booty tucked away for the KGC during or after the war.  So I am not a big JJ was a KGC operative follower. 

So that is why I am wondering where this alleged money came from.  I like treasure stories.  Not like I am asking for a map to anything.

SWR,
Since you do concede that the KGC did actually exist, then you must have actually done enough research to know where the largest membership was located...where the most activity was.  Is that right?  Or will you continue to choose to ignore my posts.  Hint, Rebel has said the answer many times before in his posts.  Please tell us the answer.
Boattow

I didn't say anyone handed out money. But I know that a LOT of money existed down there, and if you can call slavery "smart" then I guess they got rich being smart. Truth is, we simply don't know for sure, either way. So why bother those who wish to search a different way than you?

We better take it easy on SWR. Pretty soon he won't have anywhere to run.

SWR wrote:
Boattow...I really don't mind having civil, adult conversations about the topics I post in. However, your sarcastic approach to incite me into conversation in this thread, as well as previous/past threads holds no hope for the aforementioned (civil, adult).

If you want to rephrase your queries, in a non-offensive or "I'm gonna one-up SWR" fashion...I would be more than happy to oblige ya. I'm not that good at theses kinds of guessing games. Plausible evidence is appreciated, too  
========================================================

Well, actually I can show you post after post of yours that are sarcastic and that is why I finally decided to take that approach since you decided to ignore my previous non-sarcastic questions posed to you.  As you know, I don't post often on the forums but decided to only because of your scarcastic, condescending tone.

This is your typical method.  You have already done your best to avoid the question.  Now you want to take this in a different direction.  You know I have something up my sleeve.  You see, you may get this answer wrong.  That will not look good on you.  You might get this answer right, and then I will take your previous post and show you how that one was silly.

So are you interested in playing my game now?
Boattow

See Jim, this is typical.  Still no answers.  If you have done any research at all, and I'm pretty sure you have stated that you have before, then this is an easy one.  But you continue not to answer the question.  That's OK, I've made you look silly....yay me.

I really wasn't interested, when I started this, in making you look silly, I wanted to show you that maybe, just maybe, you do have something to learn.  Nevermind, you've made up your mind and no amount of truth will ever change it. 
Boattow

I didn't say anyone handed out money. But I know that a LOT of money existed down there, and if you can call slavery "smart" then I guess they got rich being smart. Truth is, we simply don't know for sure, either way. So why bother those who wish to search a different way than you?

i'm not trying to bother anyone searching anything.  Over the years I have just seen none sense posted as "fact".  I want to deal in facts, that's all.....

And when someone makes broad blanket statements, like a certain member who is ignoring me does, I want to know where his version of the "fact" are coming from.

I had a professor who liked to say:

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but the facts will still be the facts.

I encougare different opinions.  I just want them to be based in facts.  Or at least semi-facts.  But when a statement like X,Y,and Z, were KGC leaders............and no background to support it, I want to know why you think that.

When some one says the KGC hid their mega treasure  vaults after the war, I want to know why you think that.  Where did the information come from?

But I don't get any answers from the ones making the statements.  I wind up debating with you folks, and that is fine.  But it also makes me think there are no facts to back up the grand statements.

Because I will look into them.  And if I am wrong I will admit it.

Believe what you want.  What I think or want should have no bearing on your searches.

I didn't say anyone handed out money. But I know that a LOT of money existed down there, and if you can call slavery "smart" then I guess they got rich being smart. Truth is, we simply don't know for sure, either way. So why bother those who wish to search a different way than you?

i'm not trying to bother anyone searching anything.  Over the years I have just seen none sense posted as "fact".  I want to deal in facts, that's all.....

And when someone makes broad blanket statements, like a certain member who is ignoring me does, I want to know where his version of the "fact" are coming from.

I had a professor who liked to say:

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but the facts will still be the facts.

I encougare different opinions.  I just want them to be based in facts.  Or at least semi-facts.  But when a statement like X,Y,and Z, were KGC leaders............and no background to support it, I want to know why you think that.

When some one says the KGC hid their mega treasure  vaults after the war, I want to know why you think that.  Where did the information come from?

But I don't get any answers from the ones making the statements.  I wind up debating with you folks, and that is fine.  But it also makes me think there are no facts to back up the grand statements.

Because I will look into them.  And if I am wrong I will admit it.

Believe what you want.  What I think or want should have no bearing on your searches.

As I said earlier, I'm not a KGC searcher. I just can't figure out why someone who don't believe in what others believe spend 90% of their time trying to disprove them. Just for the argument, maybe?
There are supposed treasure caches that people on here believe in that I think is silly, but I let them do their thing and I do mine.

Civil and adult conversation avoided...yay you.   

And I bet you are going to say it's my fault eh?  I suppose you are going to say that wasn't sarcastic?  I suppose you feel pretty good 3 posts later and you still haven't answered my question.  Yeah, yay me! 

As I said earlier, I'm not a KGC searcher. I just can't figure out why someone who don't believe in what others believe spend 90% of their time trying to disprove them. Just for the argument, maybe?
There are supposed treasure caches that people on here believe in that I think is silly, but I let them do their thing and I do mine.

Who said I don't believe?  I didn't.  Apparently you think I don't, because I am looking for facts.

And youhaven't really read what I have said.

I spend 90% of my time trying to disprove them?

I spend 90% of my time doing other things.  I don't see how trying to get to the truth is spending my time trying to disprove things.

The truth is the truth.

If I spend 100% of my time here trying to get to the truth - than I guess you are right, if there is no truth in all the claims.  I am not trying to disprove anything, I am looking to prove something, but I have yet to be told anything I can check on - on my own and away from here - that would prove anything.

Still Texas Jay hasn't offered me any proof for his claims about the mega treasures hidden after the war.  He boldly made that statement, not I.  Nor has he offered any reason on why I should take his word on why some folks were big shots in the KGC.

One of his big shots died at age 21 - kind of young to be running a secret society. 

It's really not that hard. think I have asked one question. 

I want the truth.  If you don't, then fine.  Believe what you want.  I said that before, I am not trying to change your mind.

But i guess Texas Jay still has me on ignore.





 

Tnwoods, sorry if I misunderstood you. Some on here won't leave others alone when they post, and it gets on the nerves after awhile. If you can't find proof of what people are saying, just mark it down as bad or unlikely.

[proving]

Tnwoods said:  One of his big shots died at age 21 - kind of young to be running a secret society. 

No, this would not be too young if the person knew what he was doing.  You forget, a ripe old age back then was 50;  girls were marrying at 13-14 and starting families.  During WW 2, there were 21 and 22 year old "Bird" Colonels commanding bomber squadrons and groups in Europe. 

Knowledge and abilities were far more important than age.  Prove the first 2;  get past the last.

As far a proving everything one writes on this forum;  if you don't believe something someone writes,  then keep your own council and run your own research.  Why should you wish to correct everyone one their posts?  Cull the info and build up your own treasure leads while that "other person" goes off on, what you believe to be, a wrong course.  You see, that's what a true professional treasure hunter does.  They do not engage in public debates on the validity of some information presented by someone else.  THAT'S the  main reason no one is taking you and SWR seriously.  You both come across as people who simply like to argue and muddy up the situation.  If you do a search on SWR's posts, I'll bet you'll find that for each "positive" post, you'll find at least 20 negative ones.  That is not helpfulness;  that is hatefulness.  In my NEVER  humble opinion.

Well, I don't see how trying to get to the truth muddies up anything.  Nor do I understand how trying to separate BS from fact would make anyone upset.  Unless, someone is knowingly trying to sell BS as fact.

I said before, everyone can believe what they want, I have no intention of changing anyone's mind.

When people make blanket statements as "fact", I want to know what they base it on.  Not trying to be argumentative.   Are not forums for debate and discussion?  Or are they simply outlets for theories and allegations?

Shortstack, I think folks are ignoring me because I want facts, and behind many of the statements, there aren't many to be found.  

No one seems to say - hey this is my opinion, or I think this, or this might be tied in somehow.  They say Blank Blank blank is blank.  Always as statement of fact.

There is a lot of conspiracy theories, legends, myths, stories etc.  Many of these can be traced back to Orvous Houk for their origin.  Now, if everyone's facts are based on J J was one of his names, then fair enough, that is all anyone has to say.

I would think any serious treasure hunter or amateur historian would want to get to the truth.  Maybe that is just me.  If no one wants to talk to me or take me seriously because of that, well so be it.  

But thank you for the advice

A quick side note.  When I said I think 21 is young for a KGC big shot - that is my opinion.  I didn't say he wasn't, or could not have been.

Cheers

What was left in tact after the war war utterly destroyed during reconstruction.  There was mass poverty.  The only folks who didn't surrender were living in Mexico in poverty.  

Do you know all that for a FACT? EVERYTHING was destroyed...? EVERYONE who didn't surrender went to mexico and lived in poverty?

It is really easy to make claims or statements about things.  But you should have something to back it up that is traceable in fact.  Something besides old Houk saying they are there.  He had the maps, and he couldn't find any of it.