Rare Find Today

I went back to the spot where I'd found the King William a few weeks ago, hopeing to find the last scraps I'd missed over the years. I kept with the small 5" coil due to all the iron, but boosted sensitivity up to an almost unbearable 26 this time around. All signals were poor and read iron by the numbers. This badly broken signal read a 1f c27 jumping back and forth to a 27f c50. Turns out there was a shotgun shell and iron in the hole.

This is a U.S. Navy buckle (tongue only with loop gone). It is very unlikely I would ever find the wreath, as besides pounding this site hard for so long, much dirt has been carted away and sold for fill, and what little ground that remains is becoming an unofficial dump.

The closest identity to this buckle is listed in Kerksis (page 73) where he describes this buckle having 13 stars (as does mine). Curiously he shows a picture of a similar buckle bearing 17 stars with a slight variance in the angle of the anchor flukes. He never describes that buckle, and any input on this point would be appreciated.

As it stands, the buckle he lists with 13 stars is rated as rarity 9, tied with the rarest of all Naval buckles, and tied with the rarest of all military buckles, Union or Confederate,  that are not one of a kind.

   Back at ya! 

  "Wow, first JimBeHunin's find today and now yours! The *stars* definately fell on you guys today. You have my vote also."

Thats a great find there,congrats 

Love that buckle!!! I'd get that restored! 
Banner find!
Dale

Excellent find................WTG......

Excellent buckle!! congrats

Very nice buckle! Congrats

Stunning!  In great condition as well!

you got it all age and condition!

great looking centre piece, awesome find!!

Great find John, wish I knew more on buckles, but don't, so I must ask,  era?  War of 1812 plus or minus is what I would think with that type of eagle on the anchor(buttons).

Don

"you got it all age and condition!
great looking centre piece, awesome find!!"

Thanks all!  It's funny, whenever I go on a long drive to a site I start envisioning some rarity that might be there (today it was a silver center cent which morphed into a Birch cent!  Ha ha! )  On the way home I started envisioning the potential rarity of the buckle I was not familiar with. It blew me away when it actually turned out to be what I'd hoped.

"War of 1812 plus or minus is what I would think with that type of eagle on the anchor"

Thanks Don. The Buckle Kerksis lists of this design dates from around 1825. As there are only a few known, I don't know exactly how he arrives at that date, particularly, as you ponted out, the buttons of the same design (Albert's NA85) seem to date a little earlier.

Killer buckle, Johnny!  

Banner Buckle 

Banner!  Holy cow. 

I just remembered that my USTE button was authorized by the government in April 1820 and the eagle design was the same as your buckle, so the buckle could most certainly be  1820s.

Don

Way to go on the buckle, Johnny!!!!  It looks like it is in great shape.  You have my vote!

I don't know the mechanics of those types of buckles, but it may be likely that the other portion is still around that spot!

WOW, Thats A Nice Buckle
HH!!
Swingit

Great looking Buckle!   Congrats on stellar relic!!!! Hogge

Excellent find  .

                        Nova Treasure

My kind of find Johnny!!!!I love Tongue and Wreaths!!!However I am not familiar with that one.I will forward this to a friend that will (C.C. Hunter).At first I thought it was similiar to one my cousin dug that is patterned after the 1842 Navy,(I believe)but it isnt

 I think that there is room on the banner for another buckle!!   The old finds are popping out of the ground at a smooth and steady pace arround here lately. 

   Congrats on a truly rare piece!!                VPR

that is a beauty...congrats

Rarity 9 deserves banner nomination.

You don't see these type of buckles everyday with a rarity of 9! there have been some beauty's finds found here lately that just jump to the top and this is another that belongs right up there!  Banner!

Nice find johnnyi  The designs of this period are my favorite.  I hope half the buckle is enough to get you the banner!

Rarity 9 deserves banner nomination.

 

John,
Congratulations on such a rare, good looking buckle!
Hope you make the banner.
My vote is in!

Congrats on a beautiful buckle ... well done!

Given what I just found out about that buckle I definitely say BANNER!!!!!!!!!!

Nice finds. Wonder if the buckle could be restored and used as a hatband buckle.....?

Awesome Find 

I'll take the buckle collection book edition with pic of johnnyi's buckle

What do you mean you can't find more 

Banner 

I woke up this morning to find this wonderful surprise! Thanks everyone!

I'm in the Navy so to me, that is a particularly cool find! WTG! 

Sweet Buckle ! Congrats on the great find  ! 

TommNJ

That is an incredible find that Anyone would feel lucky to dig.  BIG congrats to you.  I'm glad this one ended up on the Banner so quickly.   

HH,


Buckles

great job on the buckle  :thumbsup:and on making the banner !!!

  There's a new "Buckle Boy" in town. 

Well done on getting the banner on this rare find.  But I have no idea what the 9 rating means?  Can you explain?  I guess it goes to 10 being the rarist of how many known examples?

Thanks guys. Crusader to answer your question, Kerksis rates rarity 1 as being common, up to rarity 10 being unique. Between those he guages comparative rarity with known buckles (the most well known and easiest to judge those that exist are rare  Confederate buckles): thus rarity 9 being the Arkansas belt plate (and this one),  rarity 8 the Mississippi 1851 pattern, rarity 7 the Georgia seal, rarity 6 the OVM and CSA plates etc.. All buckles listed in his book, U.S. or Confederate, conform to the same standard of rarity. I hope I explained that okay.    Kugar has access to pehaps some more recent facts regarding these buckles and their rarity, whch he could better explain. Thanks again.

Thanks guys. Crusader to answer your question, Kerksis rates rarity 1 as being common, up to rarity 10 being unique. Between those he guages comparative rarity with known buckles (the most well known and easiest to judge those that exist are rare  Confederate buckles): thus rarity 9 being the Arkansas belt plate (and this one),  rarity 8 the Mississippi 1851 pattern, rarity 7 the Georgia seal, rarity 6 the OVM and CSA plates etc.. All buckles listed in his book, U.S. or Confederate, conform to the same standard of rarity. I hope I explained that okay.    Kugar has access to pehaps some more recent facts regarding these buckles and their rarity, whch he could better explain. Thanks again.

  The sad part of the deal is it's not CW period!  Had it been, you perhaps could be out car shopping.

Thanks guys. Crusader to answer your question, Kerksis rates rarity 1 as being common, up to rarity 10 being unique. Between those he guages comparative rarity with known buckles (the most well known and easiest to judge those that exist are rare  Confederate buckles): thus rarity 9 being the Arkansas belt plate (and this one),  rarity 8 the Mississippi 1851 pattern, rarity 7 the Georgia seal, rarity 6 the OVM and CSA plates etc.. All buckles listed in his book, U.S. or Confederate, conform to the same standard of rarity. I hope I explained that okay.    Kugar has access to pehaps some more recent facts regarding these buckles and their rarity, whch he could better explain. Thanks again.

cheers

Definitely one of the nicest buckles found here!   

Brian

Thanks guys. Crusader to answer your question, Kerksis rates rarity 1 as being common, up to rarity 10 being unique. Between those he guages comparative rarity with known buckles (the most well known and easiest to judge those that exist are rare  Confederate buckles): thus rarity 9 being the Arkansas belt plate (and this one),  rarity 8 the Mississippi 1851 pattern, rarity 7 the Georgia seal, rarity 6 the OVM and CSA plates etc.. All buckles listed in his book, U.S. or Confederate, conform to the same standard of rarity. I hope I explained that okay.    Kugar has access to pehaps some more recent facts regarding these buckles and their rarity, whch he could better explain. Thanks again.

  The sad part of the deal is it's not CW period!  Had it been, you perhaps could be out car shopping.

Johnny,you said it about as well as I could.CC Hunter said he would reply and enlighten us,he will I am sure.Ironpatch you hit it right on the head!!!It is crazy that this buckle probably dates back to the early 1800's and isnt worth as much as  civil war buckle!Its not like it has less history.We commonly encounter a tongue and wreath buckle that features a Star,that dates 1850-1855 ish,We are far from any Civil war action,and if told where and what it doesnt draw any attention now say somebody assumes it was dug near a C.W. battlefield and watch to value soar!!

"Johnny,you said it about as well as I could.CC Hunter said he would reply and enlighten us,he will I am sure.Ironpatch you hit it right on the head!!!It is crazy that this buckle probably dates back to the early 1800's and isnt worth as much as  civil war buckle!Its not like it has less history.We commonly encounter a tongue and wreath buckle that features a Star,that dates 1850-1855 ish,We are far from any Civil war action,and if told where and what it doesnt draw any attention now say somebody assumes it was dug near a C.W. battlefield and watch to value soar!!"

Thanks Kugar, I'll be looking forward to C.C.'s input. I uderstand the thrill of finding any CW relic though, whether it saw battle or not. The story is just too poignant and epic not to feel that way. It's fair enough to put a price on that.  You're right though, other periods such as the early 1820's are often ignored, but I think it's partly because they are not fully understood. Aside from maybe a Yul Brenner movie or two, who knows about the constant chasing of pirates and slave traders around the world by a tiny Navy?......unless they happened to dig a relic of the period yesterday and curiousity forced them to sit up half the night and read about it

I hear ya!

Thanks guys. Crusader to answer your question, Kerksis rates rarity 1 as being common, up to rarity 10 being unique. Between those he guages comparative rarity with known buckles (the most well known and easiest to judge those that exist are rare  Confederate buckles): thus rarity 9 being the Arkansas belt plate (and this one),  rarity 8 the Mississippi 1851 pattern, rarity 7 the Georgia seal, rarity 6 the OVM and CSA plates etc.. All buckles listed in his book, U.S. or Confederate, conform to the same standard of rarity. I hope I explained that okay.    Kugar has access to pehaps some more recent facts regarding these buckles and their rarity, whch he could better explain. Thanks again.

  The sad part of the deal is it's not CW period!  Had it been, you perhaps could be out car shopping.

You're right about that!   

I think that  this discussion highlights the fact that this forum has members on the cutting edge of  deciding what 'valuable' is.  In my mind the monetary value of certain relics is only proportional to the number of people who are knowledgable about that particular relic or it's association with a particular event.  Here's hoping to the continued sharing of information between us all about the lesser known items, so we can decide for ourselves how 'valuable' something is without worrying how much money we could trade it for!

I think that  this discussion highlights the fact that this forum has members on the cutting edge of  deciding what 'valuable' is.  In my mind the monetary value of certain relics is only proportional to the number of people who are knowledgable about that particular relic or it's association with a particular event.  Here's hoping to the continued sharing of information between us all about the lesser known items, so we can decide for ourselves how 'valuable' something is without worrying how much money we could trade it for!

    That is exactly correct,in that there is more collectors of Civil War artifacts than any other era.To me $ dont even come into mind,it irks me when the first thing somebody asks is "how much is that worth"?Shows that in society everything is about dollar figures and the average person has no idea about the history!!

I think that  this discussion highlights the fact that this forum has members on the cutting edge of  deciding what 'valuable' is.  In my mind the monetary value of certain relics is only proportional to the number of people who are knowledgable about that particular relic or it's association with a particular event.  Here's hoping to the continued sharing of information between us all about the lesser known items, so we can decide for ourselves how 'valuable' something is without worrying how much money we could trade it for!

    That is exactly correct,in that there is more collectors of Civil War artifacts than any other era.To me $ dont even come into mind,it irks me when the first thing somebody asks is "how much is that worth"?Shows that in society everything is about dollar figures and the average person has no idea about the history!!

   But why should the value be a secret and why shouldn't I ask? It is what it is and I have no problem asking or telling.

 

I guess that came across wrong,I meant the general person on the street I guess,or say a landowner that thinks you are getting rich with the rusty relics he see's you all excited about.I honestly couldnt tell you the $ value of %90 of my stuff,I just dont care.Insurance reasons would be handy I guess.

A thing of beauty!

I guess that came across wrong,I meant the general person on the street I guess,or say a landowner that thinks you are getting rich with the rusty relics he see's you all excited about.I honestly couldnt tell you the $ value of %90 of my stuff,I just dont care.Insurance reasons would be handy I guess.

  I had a feeling you were talking about people outside the hobby.  As for values for finds on the forum, if the person wants to say so why not.  I really wouldn't have a clue what the buckle above would bring, but I do know there's not near the interest in the period that dates between Rev War and Civil War.

I think that  this discussion highlights the fact that this forum has members on the cutting edge of  deciding what 'valuable' is.  In my mind the monetary value of certain relics is only proportional to the number of people who are knowledgable about that particular relic or it's association with a particular event.  Here's hoping to the continued sharing of information between us all about the lesser known items, so we can decide for ourselves how 'valuable' something is without worrying how much money we could trade it for!

    That is exactly correct,in that there is more collectors of Civil War artifacts than any other era.To me $ dont even come into mind,it irks me when the first thing somebody asks is "how much is that worth"?Shows that in society everything is about dollar figures and the average person has no idea about the history!!

   But why should the value be a secret and why shouldn't I ask? It is what it is and I have no problem asking or telling.

 

It's all good IP.  I think we all enjoy learning the monetary value of our relics, but the knowledge that you and others give us about our lesser known finds makes digging them just as rewarding    

I guess that came across wrong,I meant the general person on the street I guess,or say a landowner that thinks you are getting rich with the rusty relics he see's you all excited about.I honestly couldnt tell you the $ value of %90 of my stuff,I just dont care.Insurance reasons would be handy I guess.

  I had a feeling you were talking about people outside the hobby.  As for values for finds on the forum, if the person wants to say so why not.  I really wouldn't have a clue what the buckle above would bring, but I do know there's not near the interest in the period that dates between Rev War and Civil War.

   Yes absolutely,I have no problem with that!Knowing the value is good.As far as Johnny's buckle,I dont know how you could put a value on it?It is very unfortunate it is broken and incomplete.   CC hunter where are you?!!!

I'm sure I will get beaten up for this opinion of mine, but;...

Knowing the market value of a good find is but one part of many ingredients of any antiquity, such as rarity, construction, material, age, history, condition, and origin, that gives the whole picture to the said find. Especially to those of us who don't know that particular category. The value brings it into some perspective to learn and express one's appreciation as to why it is a great find. Otherwise, it's just another buckle or silver Roman coin to many.

I think there is some psychological barrier many of us bear that find the talk of value or money embarrassing, and yet deep down want (not need) to know. It's part of the scoring of the game.

It's no coincidence that all the finds on the banner are valuable.
Value isn't necessarily based on the fact so few exist, and just as often is based on the fact that there are just more collectors demanding one than certain item's availability, such as the 1916-D dime, etc.

I showed a very valuable and important piece here a few months ago, and got little reaction from the t-netters because it was a piece of history not very well known, but I bet if I had mentioned its value, that would have been different.

I guess that came across wrong,I meant the general person on the street I guess,or say a landowner that thinks you are getting rich with the rusty relics he see's you all excited about.I honestly couldnt tell you the $ value of %90 of my stuff,I just dont care.Insurance reasons would be handy I guess.

  I had a feeling you were talking about people outside the hobby.  As for values for finds on the forum, if the person wants to say so why not.  I really wouldn't have a clue what the buckle above would bring, but I do know there's not near the interest in the period that dates between Rev War and Civil War.

   Yes absolutely,I have no problem with that!Knowing the value is good.As far as Johnny's buckle,I dont know how you could put a value on it?It is very unfortunate it is broken and incomplete.   CC hunter where are you?!!!

    Cal...  probably out digging something good. 

WOW! Very Cool!
Congrats on the find & banner!

nice

Banner Find!!!!

It's nice to wake up to a discussion on value vs rarity. To chime in, I'm in the camp where rarity usually wins out, but with the provision that there is historic importance to the piece, such as that of some of the first Continental buttons or first Federal plates, etc. of which many of these firsts exist only as fragments. As far as monetary value goes, it is so flukey as to be almost irrelevant sometimes.  For example a "Monroe" Presidential button of only two know may be "valued" at several thousand dollars, while an obscure FDR era tin pinback of the same or more number of examples has already brought one hundred thousand dollars!

I received some hopeful news last night about the wreath, but not necessarily hopeful that I will ever find the wreath myself. I've learned there was a wreath found on the general location by one of our little band, in fact by the person who turned me on to the spot years ago. He believed it was a C.W. buckle which is very similar. The odds are huge it is the wreath to the first U.S. Navy buckle. It's been some twenty or so years since he discovered it so it may have changed hands by now,  but if it hasn't, I'm sure he will alllow me to photograph the entire buckle intact. It doesn't bother me at all that we would each have half of such a piece of history, as someday it would still be possible for anyone who wanted it enough to bid on each part, the way related important collections of manuscripts are sometimes bid on in parts, with a final bid being on the whole. I have no dsire to sell mine though.

Anyway, I'm waiting by the phone for the news, and will report back when I hear it. Hopefully it will be something exciting.  

Nice Finds.....

I agree that rarity is not the driving force behind valuation. Demand drives the value.

But, not all collectors, metal detectors, or dealers are in the same arena, and they will never ever see enough of certain categories to appreciate a particular rarity. The value helps the uninitiated to grasp the find's importance, and share their appreciation for the lucky find, at least. How many USA Civil War collector's you reckon live in Europe, for instance? How many Celtic gold Slaters will be found in the USA?

Good luck on remarrying the two buckle pieces back together. That would be a historic moment.

"Good luck on remarrying the two buckle pieces back together. That would be a historic moment."

Ha!, looks like I'll have to wait a while for that. I got the call and struck out. It seems my friend was talking about another guy who hit the place, but I'll have to dig up his address and see what he found. Oh well, maybe I can still marry them someday, but it doesn't bother me too much if I don't. 

Hey Johnny, If I had found the wreath, you know I would give it to you.
If you're recalling correctly (that you've seen the dug loop) I think there's a decent chance your old hunting buddy you mentioned to me may have it.

Once again, perseverance pays off.

Cheers, KD

No LL, didn't see it, just heard about it. Thanks!

Great Find!!!!!

I've got a CW Navy button, found near Manassas w/ the identical design on it.

I've got a CW Navy button, found near Manassas w/ the identical design on it.

jpitt, yes, there are a number of Navy buttons with very close to the same design, a design which included the oval around the field, vertical anchor, etc.. They date from the 1820's. By the time the Civil War broke out this style of button had long passed, which might suggest that yours was dropped earlier on your site, or as a long shot, it may even have been used by a Confederate soldier.

That buckle is a awesome relic man

HH Jer

I've got a CW Navy button, found near Manassas w/ the identical design on it.

jpitt, yes, there are a number of Navy buttons with very close to the same design, a design which included the oval around the field, vertical anchor, etc.. They date from the 1820's. By the time the Civil War broke out this style of button had long passed, which might suggest that yours was dropped earlier on your site, or as a long shot, it may even have been used by a Confederate soldier.

Thats right along the lines of info I am gathering as well Johnny.      On the other note:Given the rarity of any Tongue and Wreath buckles dug back there,I would find it difficult to imagine a Wreath found at the same site would be to anything but yours.I always wonder when I dig one half or the other if someone has already found my other half.

That is a sweet find indeed!    If I had the wreath to it I would give it to you no problem what good is the wreath alone anyway? You have the best part for sure!

Congrats on your banner find.  Hope you are able to put all the pieces together someday.

John. Amazing find there my friend. I'm sorry I didn't see it before. I just don't make over on this side too often.
 Man that's a good find      HHHH

Awesome find indeed.
Chris

Cool find! Congrats  !

Beautiful!  Congrats on the Buckle and Banner!!

Is this your buckle?  Plate 992 out of O'Donnell's book.


Ironman

That is a beautiful find congrats!

Thanks Ironman!!!

  congrats on banner Johnny i wtg hh rob.

 

Johnnyi....I have just read all the replys to your fantastic find big Congrats here's a thought, could you not have a replica of the Wreath made I know it wouldn't be the same as the real thing but it would look good in your display


http://cwsutler.hypermart.net/BkPic.html

SS

I don't know how rare it is but I know it is a great find....looks great.

I've got a CW Navy button, found near Manassas w/ the identical design on it.

jpitt, yes, there are a number of Navy buttons with very close to the same design, a design which included the oval around the field, vertical anchor, etc.. They date from the 1820's. By the time the Civil War broke out this style of button had long passed, which might suggest that yours was dropped earlier on your site, or as a long shot, it may even have been used by a Confederate soldier.

I lied, well, not really..hadn't looked at mine in a while, thought it was similiar..just posted a pic of my button in the whatsit forum, it is nowhere near your buckle

johnnyi - congratulations on the tongue part of the tongue and wreath. Last year I recovered a wreath that came from NJ. I posted it thinking it may be Civil War. But it appears to be much older. I saw a post on an early militia buckle that was close but not the same. The picture iron man posted that appears to look like the tongue you have happens to be a match to the wreath I have. With X shape ribbons on top and bottom. The site has produced Colonial coins, musket balls and an 1812 and 1815 Spanish 2 and 4 reale coins. It was near a tavern that housed colonists fighting under Washington. Many other early relics surfaced there also. If I can find the post from last fall I will bump it up since no one ever ID'd it yet. But it looks pretty close to the one ironman posted. I am at the shore where many captains came from as this area built some of the worlds best sailing ships of it's time period. And I have dug many maritime relics including plenty of buttons with eagles grasping anchors. One has a copper/brass top dome and an iron back with dome holes as opposed to a ring. It's the only one like it I have ever found. And I have over a hundred different buttons from just about everything. Except Washington's inauguration or campaign. I hope I can find it and bring it back up. I would love to finally put a story behind the wreath.
Steve

johnnyi - congratulations on the tongue part of the tongue and wreath. Last year I recovered a wreath that came from NJ. I posted it thinking it may be Civil War. But it appears to be much older. I saw a post on an early militia buckle that was close but not the same. The picture iron man posted that appears to look like the tongue you have happens to be a match to the wreath I have. With X shape ribbons on top and bottom. The site has produced Colonial coins, musket balls and an 1812 and 1815 Spanish 2 and 4 reale coins. It was near a tavern that housed colonists fighting under Washington. Many other early relics surfaced there also. If I can find the post from last fall I will bump it up since no one ever ID'd it yet. But it looks pretty close to the one ironman posted. I am at the shore where many captains came from as this area built some of the worlds best sailing ships of it's time period. And I have dug many maritime relics including plenty of buttons with eagles grasping anchors. One has a copper/brass top dome and an iron back with dome holes as opposed to a ring. It's the only one like it I have ever found. And I have over a hundred different buttons from just about everything. Except Washington's inauguration or campaign. I hope I can find it and bring it back up. I would love to finally put a story behind the wreath.
Steve

Steve, that would be great to see the wreath. So many of them look almost identical, it's not until you look which way the ribbons are crossed or some other tiny difference in detail that you begin to realize how remote the chances are of finding (or seeing ) an exact match are. The buttons sound cool. Odds are pretty good the steel backed one is "civilian", but it could have been worn at sea.

Johnny,here is one a freind of mine dug.It is from the wrong end of the U.S,but looks awful close!!

Great Find ! Even though Kerksis is a great reference for buckles, it was printed 35 years ago and a lot has been determined since. Your buckle is a pattern 1830 Navy officer buckle that dates c.1837-1841 and was worn on white cotton belts for dress occasions and on blue webbing for undress. To see your identical buckle with 13 stars see plate 992 in AMERICAN MILITARY BELT PLATES by Campbell.
     I was told that you detect in PA so I thought you'd like to see a belt plate I also found in PA last year. its a c.1820's pennsylvania militia belt buckle that I found at a house site (its a farm field today but must have been in use up to the early 1900's from the artifacts I found there). see photo.....

Great Find ! Even though Kerksis is a great reference for buckles, it was printed 35 years ago and a lot has been determined since. Your buckle is a pattern 1830 Navy officer buckle that dates c.1837-1841 and was worn on white cotton belts for dress occasions and on blue webbing for undress. To see your identical buckle with 13 stars see plate 992 in AMERICAN MILITARY BELT PLATES by Campbell.
     I was told that you detect in PA so I thought you'd like to see a belt plate I also found in PA last year. its a c.1820's pennsylvania militia belt buckle that I found at a house site (its a farm field today but must have been in use up to the early 1900's from the artifacts I found there). see photo.....

Thanks DFX, this is the stuff I need! That seems the right time frame with eagle head facing right, and it matches the style of all the early ones kerksis lists which are pressed with the tongues built of a few separate parts. I just saw one of these the other day online which was found in 1970, but it had a later date attribution which didn't seem quite  right. It might have been used by Confederates at a much later date which made it even more interesting. That is one pretty buckle of yours!  Man, that's the inspiration I need to get out in the old Pa. stomping grounds again! Those fields rarely fail us do they? Thanks again!