All Lost Dutchman Mine Maps

Do any of the 63  Lost dutchman mine maps lead to anywhere other than the Superstition Mountains, if so what is the percentage out of the 63?     http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/copper/thumbnails.php?album=3

HIO Native one: How many are based upon true facts, and how many upon previous maps?


Don Jose de La Mancha

This is quoted from a post on a recent article. michael paul hill wrote on Tuesday, Jul 20 at 06:48 PM »
How come "none of the white people" who look for this gold mine "ever ask" an Apache person or medicine about this mountain? It seems like the media "minimizes the connection that us Apache have with this mountain" and (hence) the reasons why careless people enter into this holy and sacred mountain to look for the "stone of the Creator which is gold?" Even though "we may be reluctant to answer" it "wouldn't hurt for you all to inquire about why this holy and sacred mountain consumes the hearts of men who are seeking material wealth instead of the holiness that this place is known for...especially to us Nnee (Apache)."


Read more: KCSG Television - 3 Hikers on Treasure Hunt in Superstitions Feared Dead http://www.kcsg.com/view/full_story...e-Hunt-in-Superstitions-Feared-Dead

"It seems like the media "minimizes the connection that us Apache have with this mountain"   Why on Gods green earth would the media or "anyone" minimize that connection?        And who would gain by minimizing this connection, and what would they gain other than dead or missing prospector treasure hunters. Do these ends justify their means?

I found this document with the aboved named "Michael Hill San Carlos Apache." http://www.law.arizona.edu/depts/ip...hua/documents/CAAUNPFIIBriefing.pdf

Maybe it is "time for all whites" to write letters to start asking questions about the connections of us Apache and the superstition mountains.     Official Website of the Apache Nation Chamber of Commerce     http://www.sancarlosapache.com/Attractions.htm

And if any one wants my opinion heres the real beef. The United States, Mexican and Spanish governments, along with the Church, engaged in
a transparent attempt to destroy the Chiricahua Apache people. Settlers and colonizers of
the above groups promoted the act of genocide against the Chiricahua and Apache people
as well as other Indigenous Peoples in the United States, Mexico, Canada and South
America in efforts to exploit their lands, territories and natural resources. These States
"have yet to apologize, admit, or reconcile these gross human rights abuses to the peoples
they have committed these atrocities against."

These States
"have yet to apologize, admit, or reconcile these gross human rights abuses to the peoples
they have committed these atrocities against."

That's probably because 100% of the perpetrators and 100% of the victims have been dead for a long, long time and there's no one left that needs to apologize, nor anyone left in need of an apology.

Santa Fe New Mexican Mr. Kemm did post in this forum, an "apology from the catholic church" but i have seen no one else publicly apologize for the atrocities, on this forum or any where else. I personally am neutral on this political can of worms, and just want to help bring resolve and healing to this old wound of Apache. Travis B

Some Apaches believe in "reincarnation" but most believe spirits included ancestors, animals, the four directions and natural forces.
Virtues in Apache tribes include hard work, keeping your word and generosity. "The reward for (good acts) was not a reward in the afterlife but a reward of good things in present-day life."

These States
"have yet to apologize, admit, or reconcile these gross human rights abuses to the peoples they have committed these atrocities against."

That's probably because 100% of the perpetrators and 100% of the victims have been dead for a long, long time and there's no one left that needs to apologize, nor anyone left in need of an apology.

Yeah, they got screwed.  But the Apaches did more than their share of screwing the other tribes in the southwest before the Mexicans or Whitey arrived.  It's the way of humans - we screw others to get what they have, then someone else screws us to take it away.  All of our forefathers are guilty and all of them have been victimized, one way or another.  We'll eventually get ours too.  In case you haven't noticed, there's not much justice in this world.

By the way, there's not one mention of the Superstitions in the links you've provided.  Also, the first Anglos into Apacheria reported gold mining done in the Gila headwaters country by Mangus Coloradas and his people.  They learned from the Mexicans that the 'holy metal' could be used as money to buy stuff with (The Marvelous Country, by Cozzens to start with).

"By the way, there's not one mention of the Superstitions in the links you've provided"     The Apache sacred cave and the lost dutchmans mine are infact one and the same, and are under protection, and yes it is in the superstitions, and yes Mr. Kemm has pinpointed it. so how bout helping in returning those apache bones as this would be a good deed shown.    Travis B                        The past is gone but the future is being made.

“This is the pain and suffering our people lived through. Many of our ancestors have never forgotten the sadness and unforgiving moments. It has been passed on to their children and generations thereafter.

“Is it any wonder that we are so deeply divided, not having dealt with the atrocities? We must cope with what actually happened to our ancestors, put it behind us, begin to heal, understand who we are and go forward together as a tribe and as Apaches.”
San Carlos Apache Crown Dancers
Taken at Mission San José de Tumacácori, Arizona.

These States
"have yet to apologize, admit, or reconcile these gross human rights abuses to the peoples they have committed these atrocities against."

That's probably because 100% of the perpetrators and 100% of the victims have been dead for a long, long time and there's no one left that needs to apologize, nor anyone left in need of an apology.

Yeah, they got screwed.  But the Apaches did more than their share of screwing the other tribes in the southwest before the Mexicans or Whitey arrived.  It's the way of humans - we screw others to get what they have, then someone else screws us to take it away.  All of our forefathers are guilty and all of them have been victimized, one way or another.  We'll eventually get ours too.  In case you haven't noticed, there's not much justice in this world.

By the way, there's not one mention of the Superstitions in the links you've provided.  Also, the first Anglos into Apacheria reported gold mining done in the Gila headwaters country by Mangus Coloradas and his people.  They learned from the Mexicans that the 'holy metal' could be used as money to buy stuff with (The Marvelous Country, by Cozzens to start with).

Springfield,

You are, of course, correct.  My comment would be:  The Apache "have yet to apologize, admit, or reconcile these gross human rights abuses to the peoples they have committed these atrocities against."

The Apache were the latest of the latecomers (Native Americans) into the Southwest, with Arizona being on the tail end of their invasion, somewhere around A.D. 1700.  They arrived here by having to run from, being pushed by, the strong tribes and overpowering the weak ones along the way.

When the Apache apologize to the people they displaced by force, perhaps we should consider doing the same, although it's probably been done by the whites already.  There was never a large presence of Apache in the Superstitions.  I believe most of this talk is a modern-day invention.

Just one man's opinion.

Take care,

Joe

 I believe most of this talk is a modern-day invention.

Just one man's opinion.

Take care,

Joe  The Superstition mountains!

"You’ve got to start with the Apache." To the Apache, the Superstitions are a sacred place. It’s the home of their “Thunder God.”
And, that Thunder God did not welcome any trespassers. Only the Apache themselves were welcome in the Superstitions.

This Thunder God was so powerful and dangerous, the other local tribes stayed far away from his home. Those foolhardy enough to enter the Superstitions seldom came back out.
"The Apache has always believed only they can pass through the superstitions safely"

"You’ve got to start with the Apache."

.... the Apache, the Superstitions are a sacred place. It’s the home of their “Thunder God.”
And, that Thunder God did not welcome any trespassers. Only the Apache themselves were welcome in the Superstitions.

This Thunder God was so powerful and dangerous, the other local tribes stayed far away from his home. Those foolhardy enough to enter the Superstitions seldom came back out.
"The Apache has always believed only they can pass through the superstitions safely"

Nice campfire story.

...
i am  shama chi moha
i am back !
 i am tazza the lizard boy
 son of ca ta ka
the cactus king
chief of chi coo mohaz toc
i am the dove and the raven
i am coo a caw tribe
....

Silly campfire story

Sigh Springfield, BB, Me?  I am just a bone fide SAINT.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Sigh Springfield, BB, Me?  I am just a bone fide SAINT.

Don Jose de La Mancha
[/quolol if he can say he owns the mts .. then i can do some roll playing ...lol

.... the Apache, the Superstitions are a sacred place. It’s the home of their “Thunder God.”
And, that Thunder God did not welcome any trespassers. Only the Apache themselves were welcome in the Superstitions.

This Thunder God was so powerful and dangerous, the other local tribes stayed far away from his home. Those foolhardy enough to enter the Superstitions seldom came back out.
"The Apache has always believed only they can pass through the superstitions safely"

Nice campfire story.

Springfield,

Once again, you are correct.  Everything on the earth was sacred to the Apache, and all mountains  were especially revered.

Barry Storm, no doubt, probably heard this, and decided to weave it into his book.  Campfire tales sell books.

The Apache were not the first Native Americans in the Superstition Mountains.....by a long shot.  Many modern-day Apache don't really know their true history.  Sounds like this one learned his from "Thunder God's Gold".

Take care,

Joe

.... the Apache, the Superstitions are a sacred place. It’s the home of their “Thunder God.”
And, that Thunder God did not welcome any trespassers. Only the Apache themselves were welcome in the Superstitions.

This Thunder God was so powerful and dangerous, the other local tribes stayed far away from his home. Those foolhardy enough to enter the Superstitions seldom came back out.
"The Apache has always believed only they can pass through the superstitions safely"

Nice campfire story.

Springfield,

Once again, you are correct.  Everything on the earth was sacred to the Apache, and all mountains  were especially revered.

Barry Storm, no doubt, probably heard this, and decided to weave it into his book.  Campfire tales sell books.

The Apache were not the first Native Americans in the Superstition Mountains.....by a long shot.  Many modern-day Apache don't really know their true history.  Sounds like this one learned his from "Thunder God's Gold".

Take care,

Joe

i second that .. well said joe

Moderator Comment

TERMS OF USE VIOLATION

Moderator Comment

OFF TOPIC

Moderator Comment

 TERMS OF USE VIOLATION

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 OFF TOPIC

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TERMS OF USE VIOLATION/OFF TOPIC--------------FINAL WARNING!!!

who was looking for the LDM anyway ...?

TERMS OF USE VIOLATION/OFF TOPIC--------------FINAL WARNING!!!

FINALLY! Thanks mod.

I did not see one post (after the first two) by NativeOne that said anything about the TOPIC of this post. Seems he needed a place to put his rants and didn't know how to start one of his own. Word association starts most tangent arguments as it did here.

I feel sorry for the treatment his long dead ancestors got from our Gov't troops but from what I have read it wasn't to get their land, etc. It was retribution for their attacks on other tribes as well as the white settlers. The 25 Massacre Grounds victims were Mexican. Hence the bounty on INDIAN scalps culminating in the fall food feast where almost all the Indians attending were murdered. One that escaped... Geronimo, started the Indian Wars resulting in the massacre of all whites they found. It also saw the massacre of a group of Indians camped between Weavers Needle and Fremont Saddle. The Gov't troops were hiding in the rocks to the east of the encampment and began the bloodshed as the sun rose behind them. At another battle the Indians were hiding behind rocks in a cave with a sloping ceiling, the soldiers ricocheted bullets off the ceiling and killed them all.

Bad guys started it and a bad Indian tried to get even... now they are all dead.

As Rodney King (who's nationality were slaves) said... "Can't we all just get along?"

The only thing I agree with our Pres about is that we all need to sit down with a peace pipe and...

NOW about the topic... not all the maps that are supposed to be LDM maps have enough information to locate anything let alone treasure. IMHO some are nothing more than doddle pads during a conversation to explain or indicate a particular point the speaker was talking about.

-dustcap

Well one map of that group originally referred to in this topic, definitely has nothing to do with the Dutchman or even the Superstition mountains at all; the Sleeping Lady Squaw map. http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine....displayimage.php?album=3&pos=13

I would hope that no one is using this one to search the Superstitions for the LDM!   

As for the whole 'rant' there, too much hype from Hollywood.  Learn the truth, as distasteful as it may be, before making conclusions about anyone owing apologies.
Oroblanco

Three of the maps given to Erwin Ruth are likely authentic.

The Fish Map

......... and possible the map found in the Petrasch Family Stamp Album.

Best-Mike

Three of the maps given to Erwin Ruth are likely authentic.

The Fish Map

......... and possible the map found in the Petrasch Family Stamp Album.

Best-Mike

sorry mike i have to disagree with part of your statement .. IMHO Erwin Ruth was never given those maps and manuscripes the way he told his father he had ..to much bs in the story to be true ,, and to much link to the time and death of  Freddy Crystal....so we are only getting the a story from Erwin Ruth ,,.. one that dose not fit the facts

Well one map of that group originally referred to in this topic, definitely has nothing to do with the Dutchman or even the Superstition mountains at all; the Sleeping Lady Squaw map. http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine....displayimage.php?album=3&pos=13

I would hope that no one is using this one to search the Superstitions for the LDM!  

As for the whole 'rant' there, too much hype from Hollywood.  Learn the truth, as distasteful as it may be, before making conclusions about anyone owing apologies.
Oroblanco

Yes,that "map" looks like someone had once sketched a partial heart sticking out of the ground at the top of a page.Then later doodled a few other scribbled lines,a corn stalk,a couple of asterisks,and some modern english words,and wound up with something that looked like a "treasure map",probably while talking to their mother in law on the phone.
There's no sketch of a "Sleeping Lady Squaw" anywhere on it and it looks like the title was printed ,in capital letters, on the edge of the page by someone else anyway.I don't think that anyone has ever considered this one seriously as being anywhere in particular.Everywhere there is rock,from boulders to entire mountains,there are a few that look like a heart to someone looking for "hearts".

Regards:SH.

nieve one

seeing how you voiced your opioions about the Apache  in this post and even if it was off topic and plained that way .. lets hear your point of veiw on why the Apache lie and try to misled people from finding these sites .. we do not have to prove the Apache were not the founders of chicomoztoc .. its a fact .. so .. if your saying the Apache are protecting this site when it is now NFS land then your saying the Apache are brakeing the law ....and maybe the cause of some of the disappeaences in the mts near these sites ...

lets hear your replies to those issuse not the i am hollyer then thou Apache .. i am part mohawk my past we would have cut your heart out and eat it and stold your soul .. so Apache have a lot of thinking to do about what these sites mean .. at this point you can no longer keep them hidden .. the sites need to be protected .. and its not going to be the Apache that do that at this point in time .. its the goverment .. so i ask you how are your people going to react when these sites are made public ..

you can not just take the sites and say they are Apache .. they clearly are not ..


in fact the Apache can not speak for the 7 tribes ,
many disagree with your tribe now ...


my point is .. if you feel so strongly about the mts being a Apache holly place .. then give us a clear and dirrect out line why ..

i know where the sites are and beyond the others here at the site,i under stand why they are holly sites .. but i see no dirrect link to the Apache any more then any other native tribe even my own ,..

if you are so willing to voice your opioions about the Apache step up and lets here the whole story from you.. whats your side of it . and dont go off all hollyer then tho ...

i respect the Apache form who they are not what they can steal from others .. i married a ,blackfoot tribe (buckskin)so i may disagree with with you say .. but unless you voice your opioions with out attacking other members of the site like a crazy out shaman ...we will not know your point of veiw..


i know the Apache have been misledding people for more then 100 years ...do you think these will make any difernce in the long run?

the way i see it  .i may be your only real way out ...

i dont want to work the mines .. and i do want to protect the sites .. chicomoztoc is worth more then any rock from the earth .. it is the brithplace of tribes ..


i have seat and looked at the wall of dreams .. have you ..? what do you think it means .. ?

i see the heart and so and dreams of thuosands of years of faith and growth of the 7 tribes ...i see the souls of the childern of chicoo ... i know i was once one of them .. how do you think protecting these site by killing people will protect them at all .. it will make it worse ..they goverment only need link the Apache to one death dirrectly and your people will be in shame for ever .. do you under stand what i am saying ?

step back and watch what the white indain of the north dose ... i will free your people more then you will ever do in your life time ..the truth about chicoo will be writtern and it will be the truth ...

you made this post to be herd ,, so lets hear you and keep control of your spirit show us your strong not weak ...be Apache ..

Well one map of that group originally referred to in this topic, definitely has nothing to do with the Dutchman or even the Superstition mountains at all; the Sleeping Lady Squaw map. http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine....displayimage.php?album=3&pos=13

I would hope that no one is using this one to search the Superstitions for the LDM!  

As for the whole 'rant' there, too much hype from Hollywood.  Learn the truth, as distasteful as it may be, before making conclusions about anyone owing apologies.
Oroblanco

Yes,that "map" looks like someone had once sketched a partial heart sticking out of the ground at the top of a page.Then later doodled a few other scribbled lines,a corn stalk,a couple of asterisks,and some modern english words,and wound up with something that looked like a "treasure map",probably while talking to their mother in law on the phone.
There's no sketch of a "Sleeping Lady Squaw" anywhere on it and it looks like the title was printed ,in capital letters, on the edge of the page by someone else anyway.I don't think that anyone has ever considered this one seriously as being anywhere in particular.Everywhere there is rock,from boulders to entire mountains,there are a few that look like a heart to someone looking for "hearts".

Regards:SH.

Wayne & Roy,

For more information on this subject, I would suggest:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine....=630&start=0&hilit=sleeping

Just ignore the choice words about yours truly.  I got vey popular on that site.

Take care,

Joe

you mean that map is not real    .... aw ...

Hi Joe:
   Unfortunately the thread that you linked,which I have looked at previously,doesn't have enough left of it to garner much insight.One of the reasons that I have not referred to this subject before.I haven't read Greg's article as yet,or know which map he used.Nor have I seen his photos,so I cannot comment on anything other than the map from the collection that Roy seems to be referring to.One of the other two maps that I have seen thus far,(Dobie's I believe),positions the Pima gold mines in Four Peaks country,the other further to the west.Neither map shows anything resembling a heart.It is possible,of course,that the "Sleeping Lady" map in the collection has been merely mislabelled.The history,that the legend itself is based on,seems to date back to the time when Casa Grande was in much better condition.Some of that history,as remembered by the Pima, was recorded by Fr. Jacobo Sedelmayr in his manuscripts/journals

Regards:Wayne

Thank you Joe for the linkee; Wayne is right about that Sleeping Lady/squaw legend, if you have the books handy perhaps you could fill in some details for our readers but it is quite a different lost mine legend altogether and a completely different area from the Superstitions.  I don't have the right book handy and doubt this one will turn up with a Google, just too old a story and not well known.
Roy

PS I believe there is a different map also titled "Sleeping squaw" or lady, quite different from the one we have been discussing.  Anyone recall seeing a different map with a very similar name?

Roy and Wayne,

It's a pretty long article with copies of a number of maps and letters.  I will bring it to the Rendezvous and it will be available for anyone who wants to read it.

Take care,

Joe

Hi All,

Has this been mentioned on T Net before ? with a map and photo being posted, and someone else mentioned reversing it in a mirror ?
I seem to remember it was posted by Joe, but i could be wrong on that, apologies if it wasn't you joe but can anyone point me to the thread it was in,

Regards

John 

Good morning Furness:  a mirror image, upside down, was a simple, but favorite trick of the Jesuits.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Good morning Furness:  a mirror image, upside down, was a simple, but favorite trick of the Jesuits.

Don Jose de La Mancha

RDT - I've seen a number of stories regarding mirror image/upside down/reverse order type things attributed to the Jesuit order.  I'm not really a believer one way or another yet and I admit I haven't studied the subjects like a number of you obvious have, but...

Are there any clear case, undisputed and documented cases anyone can show of Jesuit "coded maps," etc... that are proven to work based on the mirror image, upside down, etc... techniques?

Good morning Furness:  a mirror image, upside down, was a simple, but favorite trick of the Jesuits.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Real,
Are the Jesuits the only ones credited with using this/these techniques, or were others using it also? I believe that possibility arises in the Peralta-Ruth map after visiting an area of interest re guarding the LDM. Wouldn't it be possible to incorporate only some parts of the map with those characteristics? The next question is what parts?

dustcap

Good morning Furness:  a mirror image, upside down, was a simple, but favorite trick of the Jesuits.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Real,
Are the Jesuits the only ones credited with using this/these techniques, or were others using it also? I believe that possibility arises in the Peralta-Ruth map after visiting an area of interest re guarding the LDM. Wouldn't it be possible to incorporate only some parts of the map with those characteristics? The next question is what parts?

dustcap

Dustcap,

In short, yes. The Jesuits were the only ones who have been found to have used coded messages like that. While it is possible other Orders did, there is just no incriminating evidence for it.

Best-Mike

[a mirror image, upside down, was a simple, but favorite trick of the Jesuits]

Good morning Furness:  a mirror image, upside down, was a simple, but favorite trick of the Jesuits.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Real,
Are the Jesuits the only ones credited with using this/these techniques, or were others using it also? I believe that possibility arises in the Peralta-Ruth map after visiting an area of interest re guarding the LDM. Wouldn't it be possible to incorporate only some parts of the map with those characteristics? The next question is what parts?

dustcap

Dustcap,

In short, yes. The Jesuits were the only ones who have been found to have used coded messages like that. While it is possible other Orders did, there is just no incriminating evidence for it.

Best-Mike

Mike,

Can you tell us where we can find the "incriminating evidence" for Jesuits using a "mirror image, upside down...."?

Thanks,

Joe

Just a note for anyone trying to track down that Sleeping Lady Squaw story, it is also known as the Black Princess, Sleeping Squaw, etc a lost gold mine somewhere near Arivaca in the Cerro Colorado.  The map referred to, as poor as it is, is more likely to apply to that lost mine legend than the Sleeping Lady rock formation you can see from the highway west of Globe.
Roy

Joe,

The incriminating evidence wasn't in using the upside down mirror image but just to do with writing in code in general.

I have sent that to you previously via email, but here is a link to start:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index....c,286969.msg2057134.html#msg2057134

.......... and for those that think the passage means they wrote letters in Vulgate Latin, it has been four years now since I first asked, and as of yet NOBODY has been able to show me a letter from this period (1608-1767) from a Jesuit Missionary Priest in Northern Mexico to a superior written in Latin. There are several places where we can view online scans of so many of those letters. Nothing in Latin.

Best-Mike

HI Dust:   you posted -->Are the Jesuits the only ones credited with using this/these techniques, or were others using it also? I believe that possibility arises in the Peralta-Ruth map after visiting an area of interest re guarding the LDM. Wouldn't it be possible to incorporate only some parts of the map with those characteristics? The next question is what parts?

********************
 Obviously not,  but they are credited with this technique.  As for partial useage, Yes, I have a map of  the Tayopa Area in which they did just this.
It involves a large sun which I finally found after a few years of scratching my head.  Even the Indians in the area don't know of it, plus a mules head looking at one of the closed portales.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hi All,

Has this been mentioned on T Net before ? with a map and photo being posted, and someone else mentioned reversing it in a mirror ?
I seem to remember it was posted by Joe, but i could be wrong on that, apologies if it wasn't you joe but can anyone point me to the thread it was in,

Regards

John 

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,255661.100.html

Hello Kanabite,

yes that's the photo and post i was thinking of,

many thanks,

John