Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

[Lost Dutchman Mine in the Superstition Mountains? What is wrong with this picture?]

Lost Dutchman Mine in the Superstition Mountains?  What is wrong with this picture?

Most Dutch-hunters know the story of the Lost Dutchman gold mine by heart.  There are over 100 "clues" to help locate it, and at least several dozen people have claimed to have found it - but very VERY few ever had gold to show.  The big question is where exactly is the mine?

Jacob Waltz told somewhat different stories to the two "main" parties we trace nearly all of our sources to, being Holmes versus Julia & Reiney.  Their two versions have even been somewhat "homogenized" by Holmes going to Julia and comparing notes.  There is a third version which is little known and is far less dramatic, but we will not address that here other than a couple of points, which I will get to in a moment.

Waltz told Holmes and his friends Julia and Reiney that the mine is in the Supers.  He gave them a story (or we are told he did) that he got the mine from Peralta, about the massacre etc. We know that Waltz came to Phoenix about 1868.  In his early days, he seems to have made Florence his "base" for prospecting expeditions into the Superstitions, which is a bit odd.

I posted a new thread with an 1876 map of Arizona, the link is

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,281261.new.html

Take a look at it, you may notice a few things. For one, the Superstitions are not even shown.  The settlements of Phoenix, Macdowell, Florence and Adamsville seem to be the only "civilization" around the Superstitions, unless we count the Pima and Maricopa Indian villages which are on the river.

Now back to our story of Waltz and his gold mine.  According to the stories, Waltz had a partner - his "nephew" according to Holmes, whom he murdered, or another "Dutchman" named Weisner, or Wiser, Weiser, Wisner, Wizer, Weisse etc by the other version.  <I am going to skip some dramatic details which are not too important for our purposes here> Waltz took him to the mine and they had worked it only a short time before they had an incident in which one of their mules got into their supplies and destroyed most of it, so someone had to go for more and Waltz elected to go and leave Weisner to work at the mine.  While he was gone, Weisner was attacked by Indians, Apaches as assumed by both partners. When Waltz got back to the mine, he found the evidence of the attack and his partner's bloody shirt, and concluded that he had been killed.  What he was unaware of was that Weisner escaped, wounded desperately but managing to make it to friendly Pimas who took him to see their friend Doctor Walker.  Doc Walker tried to help Weisner but his wounds were too much and he died in a few days, but not before drawing a map for Walker to find the mine.  Weisner had assumed that the Apaches must have gotten Waltz and wanted someone to find the mine.

Now this is all well-known to Dutch hunters, whom could easily add much detail and corrections to what I just wrote.  What seems to be skimmed over is a few landmarks.  You see, Waltz went for more supplies - where did he go?  Did he go to Phoenix? Did he go to MacDowell, which surely would be shorter? No - he went to Adams Mill.  Adams Mill was pretty much where Adamsville is marked on the 1876 map. Weisner expected Waltz to be gone four days, allowing two days travel each way. 

Back in this post I mentioned that Waltz had sort of made Florence his "base" - for several of the 'pioneers' (old timers) who knew him claimed he came into town fairly regularly, hired a Florence carpenter to build him a portable dry washer, and that his mine was "no big secret" in those days.  Where is Florence?  Very near Adamsville, check that 1876 map.

Weisner rode away from the marauding Apaches whom had ambushed him, hurt and bleeding, firing at them.   They had jumped him early in the morning, and he rode the only horse they had not gotten, but only covered a few miles (as he estimated) before the Apaches arrows dropped the horse. He kept on, running and firing from behind rocks and eventually the Indians lost interest. He headed for the first water hole he knew of.  He said he must have gone delirious, pulled out the arrow he had been hit by, and crossed the desert to the Gila river, where some Pima squaws found him.  As far as we can tell this all took place in one day, for Doc Walker sat up with Weisner all that night.  Where did the Pimas find Weisner?  At the Pima villages on the river - now check that 1876 map again, you will see they are almost directly West of Adamsville. You may also notice an Indian trail is marked there, running North-Northeast and which would have run right through the Superstitions.

It seems logical that Weisner probably ran onto that Indian trail which led right to the river and is where the Pima villages were, where he was found.

When you put this together, you have to ask - if the Lost Dutchman mine is located somewhere up in the northern Superstitions, why would Waltz go to Florence to get his drywasher, or to Adams Mill to get flour, why would Weisner flee to the Pima villages, all of which are SOUTH of the Superstitions? According to Weisner, the mine ought to be two days travel from Adams Mill, and he himself made it,  wounded, from the mine to the Pima villages in one day.   So I am asking you, dear reader.

What is wrong with this picture?  Thank you in advance for your replies.
Oroblanco

.

[What is wrong with this picture?]

... So I am asking you, dear reader.

What is wrong with this picture?  Thank you in advance for your replies.
Oroblanco

1. Adams
2. Pima villages
3. Gold mine (placer too?)
4. Partner went for supplies
5. Apache killers
6. Dutchman

Hmmm.

Roy,

That's a great map.  Thanks for the link.

Something to keep in mind, is that maps in that day and age were often wonderfully accurate as well as  woefully inaccurate in many instances.  Mountains, forts, towns......etc., were often located in the wrong place on those early maps.  I would asssume, perhaps wrongfully, that the Indian Trail that is depicted is the Apache Trail.

Take care,

Joe

Thank you for your replies.

Springfield wrote

<Oroblanco wrote>What is wrong with this picture? Thank you in advance for your replies.
Oroblanco

1. Adams
2. Pima villages
3. Gold mine (placer too?)
4. Partner went for supplies
5. Apache killers
6. Dutchman

1.Well the "Adams" mentioned here was the owner of a grist mill who sold flour and other supplies, and a small settlement grew there - it is not one and the same with the Adams of the Lost Adams Diggin's.
2. The Pima villages are historically correct and fairly well documented.
3. The "placer" part is one which has been mystifying, as we find the Holmes version claims that Waltz was "losing some fine gold" for an explanation as to why he had brought in a drywasher.  However according to at least one "old timer" who gave a 'Pioneer Interview' the drywasher was used to trace the gold to the vein, as water is scarce in the Supers it would be helpful in concentrating his samples. In locating a gold lode by this method, the "placer" gold need not be more than a single color to several shovels or even buckets of earth/gravel - the placer gold really isn't rich enough to mine it, just using it to trace back to the vein.  There is a story given by Ely of a Mexican woman who remembered her husband "winnowing" the gold which was the size of wheat grains, and this is a dry placer mining method which is likely un-related to the Lost Dutchman at all.
4. What is unbelieveable about one of the two men going for supplies?  It would have made sense for Waltz as the more "frontier" experienced of the two to be the one to go, and they must not have known of any hostile Indians or we can surmise their actions would have been quite different.
5. I am not so sure the Indians were Apaches at all, and suspect they were of a tribe which was SUPPOSEDLY at peace at this time. Both Waltz and Weisner believed they had been Apaches, but this is not proven.
6. I do not understand your finding the Dutchman to be one of the things wrong - may I ask you to explain this further?  Thank you in advance.

Cactusjumper wrote

That's a great map. Thanks for the link.

Something to keep in mind, is that maps in that day and age were often wonderfully accurate as well as woefully inaccurate in many instances. Mountains, forts, towns......etc., were often located in the wrong place on those early maps. I would asssume, perhaps wrongfully, that the Indian Trail that is depicted is the Apache Trail.

I am very well aware of the errors and omissions we find in old maps, and have examined a fair number of different such maps.  This example dates to a few years AFTER Waltz is thought to have discovered the mine (though some date it much earlier and much later) and has the latitudes and longitudes so it would be possible to cross-check the locations.  The fact that the Superstitions do not appear other than a BLANK, and this "Indian trail" lead directly to the Pima villages are interesting to me.  Other things we do not see include PINAL city, which appeared in 1878, and surely would have been MUCH closer for purposes of obtaining supplies, so this (indirectly) helps us to date Waltz's finding of the mine (before 1878, or why go to Florence and Adams Mill).

According to Kollenborn's version of Doc Walker  & Weiser has the wounded Weiser walk over 20 miles, in two days, which is perhaps correct.  I just have to wonder, why did Waltz and Weiser go SOUTH?  Check out this 1867 map, which is "zoomable"

http://azmemory.lib.az.us/cdm4/item...7&DMROTATE=0&x=97&y=236

You will note that Florence does not appear, but Ft. McDowell does, as do the Pima villages. Florence was founded in 1866, so may not have made it onto the 1867 map.So if the Florence old-timers are not lying,  we can safely say that Waltz likely did not discover his mine before 1866, for there was no Florence to be hiring a carpenter. 
<Also check out Johnson's 1864 map, no Phoenix or Florence>
http://azmemory.lib.az.us/cdm4/item...&DMROTATE=0&x=244&y=389

This Military map (dates to 1860's) shows the "Salt River" mountains (Superstitions) and several different trails leading to the Pima villages, so I do not know if we can safely conclude the Apache Trail to be the same "Indian trail" of the 1876 map.
http://azmemory.lib.az.us/cdm4/item...&DMROTATE=0&x=153&y=372

Thank you again for your replies,
your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco
 






 

1. Adams
2. Pima villages
3. Gold mine (placer too?)
4. Partner went for supplies
5. Apache killers
6. Dutchman
 
...  may I ask you to explain this further?  Thank you in advance.

No great shakes Oro.  It's just that the six points you've pinned to the LDM are also common points to another well-known, still lost AZ/NM 'lost mine'  - the Lost Adams Diggings.  Coincidences such as these always perk my attention.  

By the way, I'm trying to locate an old email (1990's) from an aquaintence who was all over the LDM all his life and had info about Waltz being often reported at Florence Junction and points south.  I can't remember much about his research, but as I recall, he didn't believe Waltz got his ore from the Superstitions.  I was more interested in the Lost Adams at the time and his LDM theories went onto the back burner at that time. 

[Thank you Springfield,]

Thank you Springfield, I had not thought to compare the coincidences. (I thought you were saying there was something wrong on each point)  It is interesting and curious, but the differences stand out to me, lode gold versus placer, general region, number of men in the mining party, mode of travel and route of travel, dates etc. I know we don't have a specific date when we can say Waltz found his mine, as he did not bother to mention that detail, but we can make educated guesses based on known incidents (such as the historical presence of Waltz in the Bradshaws during the Civil war period, his filing on a homestead in Phoenix 1868, and the stories of obtaining supplies etc as mentioned earlier.)

I take it that you do not think the Lost Adams ever existed?  Thank you in advance,
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

.... I take it that you do not think the Lost Adams ever existed?  Thank you in advance,
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

I'm still teetering on the fence and will continue to remain there, open to all ideas, new and old. 

I know some rather brilliant folks from the alternative TH community and I've seen some extremely compelling evidence that would blow your socks off re the so-called 'KGC' phenomena on sites unrelated to both the LDM and the LAD.  Therefore, by extension, I must strongly consider Brewer's claims regarding these two well-known 'lost mine' mysteries (i.e., they do not exist as described).

On the other hand, I've invested beaucoups time, research and Vibram rubber chasing the LAD since the 1970's.  In fact, I've recently begun leaning towards the 'reality' of the story again.  I've now found myself with much more available time and may decide to revisit the topic - I haven't done much with it for years.  As I've said before, if this thing is real, then I feel it's located somewhere between the San Carlos Reservation and the Pinos Altos Range.  Of course, if one is so inclined, he can stretch the search area all the way from the McCartys lava flow to the north to Juh's stronghold in Mexico, based on which version of the story you like.  Quien sabe?

Yo comprende! 

Hey Springfield,

Adams is located in/near Pinos Altos. A friend purchased 1,400 acres in Bear Creek and he owns property on both sides of the Zigzag Canyon. We have some great photos of falls with slide rock for burros as described by Snively.

Oroblanco,

You are beginning to see the light my friend. The Dutchman was not working the Soups. FYI, gold placers listed om some old maps relating to southern end of Soups.

Cactusjumper,

It is not the Apache Trail it is the back (early military) trail to Ft. McDowell. Check Sheriff Montgomery expedition to Bulldog Mine Masacre.

Gotta go...

EB

Hey Springfield,

Adams is located in/near Pinos Altos. A friend purchased 1,400 acres in Bear Creek and he owns property on both sides of the Zigzag Canyon. We have some great photos of falls with slide rock for burros as described by Snively.
....EB

If that's so, then the W.W. Williams account of the legend would gain points because he places the LAD event in the late 1850's.  Pinos Altos was founded by Snively and others and populated in 1860, but Snively rode back into town with his 500 ounces of placer in 1863.  That Snively is quite a mercurial character in the history of TX, NM and AZ isn't he?

I believe that 1400 acres is slated to revert back to National Forest soon, thanks to our Stimulus Plan.  It's all patented placer claims surrounded by the Gila NF.  I guess I'm not sure which canyon you're calling 'Zigzag Canyon'.  Went up to Twin Sisters today and finally found the face carving I've been looking for.  There's lots of gooood stuff near Pinos Altos.

Has anyone watched this on myspace videos?? I so what are your thoughts??

"AMERICAS LOST GOLD" "GO TO MYSPACE VIDEOS TO WATCH IF ITS NOT WORKING HERE ON TREASURE NET."

Springfield wrote:

I believe that 1400 acres is slated to revert back to National Forest soon, thanks to our Stimulus Plan.  It's all patented placer claims surrounded by the Gila NF.  I guess I'm not sure which canyon you're calling 'Zigzag Canyon'.  Went up to Twin Sisters today and finally found the face carving I've been looking for.  There's lots of gooood stuff near Pinos Altos.

Hi Springfield,

This particular 1,400 acres was owned by a rancher for a number of generations. The Forestry Service does want to buy the property. Bear Creek runs right through the middle of the property and it has formed the zigzag canyon. The Twin Sisters can be seen off in the distance not to far away. We started a placer operation there late this summer and recovered a little gold (not enough rainfall this year) but, we plan to return in the spring if the water supply is sufficient. Bob S. found a sand bar that hasn't been worked in over 30 years and found three times the gold as in the previous benches. Tom is selling lots to my knowledge; Bob and myself have already picked our lots out. When this country takes its final bow I am heading for Pinos Altos to live out my last days. It will be there or Angel Fire as I have some good friends in AF, Eagles Nest, Taos and the Blackfire Ranch. You ever been up to Elizabeth Town? Its colder there in the winter though. There is a KGC site east of Farmington I want to check out some day. Maybe we can check it out together sometime in the future.

Take care mi amigo,

EB

Springfield wrote:

I believe that 1400 acres is slated to revert back to National Forest soon, thanks to our Stimulus Plan.  It's all patented placer claims surrounded by the Gila NF.  I guess I'm not sure which canyon you're calling 'Zigzag Canyon'.  Went up to Twin Sisters today and finally found the face carving I've been looking for.  There's lots of gooood stuff near Pinos Altos.

Hi Springfield,

This particular 1,400 acres was owned by a rancher for a number of generations. The Forestry Service does want to buy the property. Bear Creek runs right through the middle of the property and it has formed the zigzag canyon. The Twin Sisters can be seen off in the distance not to far away. We started a placer operation there late this summer and recovered a little gold (not enough rainfall this year) but, we plan to return in the spring if the water supply is sufficient. Bob S. found a sand bar that hasn't been worked in over 30 years and found three times the gold as in the previous benches. Tom is selling lots to my knowledge; Bob and myself have already picked our lots out. When this country takes its final bow I am heading for Pinos Altos to live out my last days. It will be there or Angel Fire as I have some good friends in AF, Eagles Nest, Taos and the Blackfire Ranch. You ever been up to Elizabeth Town? Its colder there in the winter though. There is a KGC site east of Farmington I want to check out some day. Maybe we can check it out together sometime in the future.

Take care mi amigo,

EB

Are these guys brothers from Scottsdale, by chance?  Those placer claims up and down Bear Creek have been worked off and on for many years with marginal success.  My old partner and I got some worthwhile results out of upper Arroyo Rico (empties into Bear Creek just above Preachers Point) with a small dredge, a temporary dam and a Spanish rocker back in the '70s, but as you say, water is an issue, especially with the drought and much less spring runoff.
 
One of the reasons I chose SW New Mexico was the perfect climate - winters are too long in the San Juans and Sangre de Christos for my taste.  If you land here, I'll show you some things that'll keep your KGC-aware heart thumping for the rest of your days.

Springfield wrote:

Are these guys brothers from Scottsdale, by chance?  Those placer claims up and down Bear Creek have been worked off and on for many years with marginal success.  My old partner and I got some worthwhile results out of upper Arroyo Rico (empties into Bear Creek just above Preachers Point) with a small dredge, a temporary dam and a Spanish rocker back in the '70s, but as you say, water is an issue, especially with the drought and much less spring runoff.
 
One of the reasons I chose SW New Mexico was the perfect climate - winters are too long in the San Juans and Sangre de Christos for my taste.  If you land here, I'll show you some things that'll keep your KGC-aware heart thumping for the rest of your days.

They are brothers, one lives in Lodi (near Mesa) and one lives in California. They have owned the property for about three years. They had no idea of the historical value of the property, at least not until Bob Schoose took a trip up there to see our friends new property. I think I am in agreement with you as I am not a big winter country lover. I look forward to meeting you one of these days as I will be coming to Pinos Altos in the near future.

EB

NEW MEXICO:  Elizabethtown's post office was established in 1868, and was discontinued in 1931. Elizabethtown was the first incorporated city in New Mexico and even held the county seat. Charles Kennedy ran a boardinghouse here and when newcomers would come they would ((("soon disappear."))) Charles was killing them and taking their valuables and burning the bodies bit by bit. The town was so enraged after Charles' wife confessed they got him, tied a rope around his neck, and dragged him by horse up and down main street until long after he was dead. After the easy gold was picked, operations shut down and today there are only a few buildings left.

In the fall of 1866, a lone Moache Ute showed up at Fort Union with a large chunk of copper ore. The federal government was shorting the Native Americans with food and such and he wanted to trade it for more winter supplies. Captain William Moore (retired), the owner of the suttler's store, recognized the rock for what it was and offered a deal to the Ute's liking. Part of the deal was that the Native American would lead the Captain to where he got the rock. That turned out to be on the west side of Baldy Mountain.

Moore sent three prospectors out to check out the ore deposit. While they were on the mountain, one of them decided to pan a bit of stream gravel and see what he might find. In the end, they dropped the copper ore project because they found flakes of gold in nearly every gully on the west side of the mountain. An early snowstorm forced them off the mountain and when they returned to Fort Union, the principals in this venture all swore each other to secrecy. However, it was a long winter and stories get told. By the spring of 1867, there were 300 men waiting at Fort Union to charge onto the mountain and stake their claims. Problem was, all this countryside was the private property of Lucien Maxwell as part of the Maxwell Land Grant.

Maxwell had dreamed of managed and controlled growth on his property but the gold rush that occured in 1867 put an end to that. He ended up establishing lease agreements with most of the miners and then built his own mining operation on the mountain.

Elizabethtown was founded that summer of 1867 by the miners. The town was surveyed and platted with wide streets and separate residential and commercial zones. That first summer five stores opened for business. However, winter can be pretty harsh at that elevation and the miners couldn't work their claims.

In the meantime, Maxwell built a toll road through Cimarron Canyon and leased land to Uncle Dick Wootton to build a toll road over Raton Pass to Trinidad. This was necessary to get the gold out of the Moreno Valley and deposit it in the banks in Trinidad. By the spring of 1868, there was a stage line offering daily service between Elizabethtown and Cimarron. This route was so successful that the owner soon instituted another stage line to Taos and Santa Fe.

By the end of summer in 1868, there were 3,000 men working the gold fields and 100 buildings built in Elizabethtown. In January, 1869, the state legislature created a new county and named it Colfax in honor of the Vice-President elect, Schuyler Colfax. As the largest town in the county, Elizabethtown was the first county seat. A year later, Elizabethtown became the first incorporated city in New Mexico. None of this meant that this gold camp was civilized: in one 24-hour period, there were 8 isolated confrontations that left men dead.

The outlaw problem was so bad, and the law so ineffectual, that vigilante justice became the norm. Lots of folks were killed simply because someone in a position of influence didn't like them. There were even instances when the vigilantes stormed the jail and hung whoever was inside. Too many times, the dead men turned out to be innocent.

One of the nastiest of the vigilantes was a former Confederate officer named Clay Allison. Allison had a ranch over towards Cimarron but every now and then he just had to go to town somewhere (he also regularly showed up in Trinidad because Trinidad had the best doctors: he'd picked up a nasty social disease and had to seek regular treatment). Allison's fame as a gunfighter, nasty drunk and vigilante activist stretched as far away as Dodge City. He was usually the leader of the groups that stormed the jail. He was also a squatter on Maxwell's property.

In 1870, Maxwell decided to sell the Land Grant and move to the abandoned Fort Sumner. A year later, the Grant was bought by a consortium of British and Dutch investors. These investors honored any property owner who had proof that he'd bought the land from Maxwell, but squatters were to be evicted. This led to the Colfax County War.

Within two years, the county seat was moved to Cimarron, close to the headquarters of the Maxwell Land Grant Company. By 1875, the boom days of gold mining were over and Elizabethtown was in swift decline. Then in 1887, the US Supreme Court finally ruled in favor of the Land Grant owners (that the Land Grant was valid private property) and things picked up again. Mind you, one of the local folks was Tom "Black Jack" Ketchum, a notorious train robber with his Hole-In-The-Wall Gang. They hung out in Elizabethtown a lot, spending hundred-dollar bills that no one could account for in all night poker games. Black Jack was finally shot during a botched train robbery and was caught, tried and hanged in Clayton in 1901.

But life in E-town was more sane and civil than it had been in the early years, until a fire broke out in 1903 that destroyed most of the town. It was after the fire that the Mutz Hotel was rebuilt in stone but the town didn't recover. The death knell really came when Charles and Frank Springer decided to build a dam near the entrance to Cimarron Canyon. That created Eagle Nest Lake. TD Neal bought land next to the lake and founded the town of Therma (later to be called Eagle Nest). Most of the remaining residents of E-town took their houses apart and moved everything down to Therma over the next couple of years.

Gold mining continued on Baldy Mountain up into the 1940's but it wasn't very profitable because there was a shortage of water for hydraulic placer mining, and the laws were also getting stricter in regards to water pollution. Most of the land on the east side of Baldy Mountain was purchased and donated to Philmont Scout Ranch in 1962 so all mining has ceased over there.

At this point, there are only 7 of the original buildings of E-town left "standing." And the town itself is in the hands of descendants of the Mutz family.
 
 

I believe the adams diggings is very close to this area on a canyon that has black cats! Interestingly the locals say a male panther crossed over from south america and mated with some local female cats.

I have a general question, probably for the monitor of this thread.  The discussion here seems mostly about the Lost Adams Diggings.  Have most recent researchers and managers of this Forum consider LDM and LAD one in the same? 

Just wondering why is there not a LAD thread at the same level as LDM in the "Treasure Legends" topic?

Respectfully asked,

Bill

As you head up Bear Creek, there is a cave up on the left hand side after you pass Horseshoe Bend.  A survivalist had a cache in there and had it booby-trapped in the late 60's/early 70's?  Forest Service finally went in and blew it shut, but rumor has it that he was searching for the Adams Diggings in that general vicinity. 

I've messed around that area quite a bit, but never ran across anything much except for a few cliff dwellings lower down in that Cave Creek/Sycamore Canyon area.  Little bit of gold among the old placers along Bear Creek and some of the feeder canyons.

AlaskaBill wrote

Have most recent researchers and managers of this Forum consider LDM and LAD one in the same?

Just wondering why is there not a LAD thread at the same level as LDM in the "Treasure Legends" topic?

As far as I know, most treasure hunters and researchers do NOT consider the Lost Dutchman and Lost Adams to be one and the same.  If traced to their origins, the two cannot be the same.

A separate forum board would be justified for the Lost Adams Diggings in my opinion, if someone would make a request for it to the moderators they would probably make one.  Of course then someone would need to create a thread for "starters".  As there are a fair number of treasure hunters seeking the Lost Adams, it might well become very popular  and active.
Oroblanco

... A separate forum board would be justified for the Lost Adams Diggings in my opinion, if someone would make a request for it to the moderators they would probably make one.  Of course then someone would need to create a thread for "starters".  As there are a fair number of treasure hunters seeking the Lost Adams, it might well become very popular  and active.
Oroblanco

The LAD was very active on TNet a number of years ago.  Check the TNet archives for some good info from some knowledgable people.  These things act on cycles - maybe the LAD will get active again.

What is wrong with this picture?  Thank you in advance for your replies.

Oroblanco

My guess here is that Waltz ( like most miners of the day ), probably had a favorite whore in Florence and had the wash board made while he was in town.  He mentioned the December sunset shining into the mouth of his mine, still there was and probably still is plenty of placer to work somewhere on the surface.  Anyone that worked it back then was in for a short lived adventure so I would tend to think that one would stay out of sight in a tunnel of some sort if the opportunity was present.  Personally, I believe that Waltz buried Wiser at the edge of the Salt River so as the winter runoff would free him of any trumped up murder charges.  It is clear in most of the angles existing in legend that Waltz had become a mental case due to the loss of his best friend.  In fact he avoided the area for 10 years?  1883 appears to be the most active year wherein Adams comes onto the scene and Waltz returns to the site for a cache that was left behind years before?

What is wrong with this picture?  Thank you in advance for your replies.

Oroblanco

My guess here is that Waltz ( like most miners of the day ), probably had a favorite whore in Florence and had the wash board made while he was in town.  He mentioned the December sunset shining into the mouth of his mine, still there was and probably still is plenty of placer to work somewhere on the surface.  Anyone that worked it back then was in for a short lived adventure so I would tend to think that one would stay out of sight in a tunnel of some sort if the opportunity was present.  Personally, I believe that Waltz buried Wiser at the edge of the Salt River so as the winter runoff would free him of any trumped up murder charges.  It is clear in most of the angles existing in legend that Waltz had become a mental case due to the loss of his best friend.  In fact he avoided the area for 10 years?  1883 appears to be the most active year wherein Adams comes onto the scene and Waltz returns to the site for a cache that was left behind years before?

Hmm - well the amount of placer near the LDM - who knows; an old-school prospector, as experienced as Waltz, knew how to trace back the 'float' gold to the source, in this way he located and claimed several mines up in the Bradshaws, so it would be a logical way to locate the one in the Superstitions; hunting for a ledge is not quite like placer mining, as you know - when placer mining you are trying to get the most gold you can recover, in tracing back a ledge you are looking for ANY gold at all, even the tiniest speck; by sampling in a methodical way, hunting for those tiny specks which would never pay a placer miner to try to mine, until you quit finding them and that tells you have just passed the source of the gold.

I take it that you do not believe the story we get from Doctor Walker, about Jacob Weiser?  Are you familiar with that version, and Dr Walker's reliability?  According to him, Weiser came to the Pima villages, badly wounded, and they brought him to Dr Walker for help; Dr Walker was unable to save him however and he passed away at Walker's home.  Not before giving a map to Walker however, and by this version, Weiser was likewise convinced that his partner (Waltz) had been killed by Apaches.  We don't even know for sure that it WAS Apaches either, for it would not be Apache-like to allow a seriously wounded enemy to escape, not without making some effort to catch and kill him if for no other reason than his scalp and his rifle.  Other Indians were also hostile in those 'pioneer' days, but this particular angle is not even noticed by most.

I don't know about Waltz having a favorite prostitute in Florence, but there were closer places to find such entertainment, if the mine really is in the Superstitions as we define that name today.
Oroblanco

Right you are Oroblanco;  The Weiser scenario is still a mystery and one would tend to lean towards the Doc's story with so much sensible detail handed down;  still a legend to be put to the test here.  If I were to pursue the history available, I would start with the time spans of travel and the mode of transport over suspected terrains, point to point through the story.  He must have been a tough old bird from the sound of it.  Still the missing link;  where is the mine and how far is it away from the Doc's place.  It is in the Tontos by the way.

Right you are Oroblanco;  The Weiser scenario is still a mystery and one would tend to lean towards the Doc's story with so much sensible detail handed down;  still a legend to be put to the test here.  If I were to pursue the history available, I would start with the time spans of travel and the mode of transport over suspected terrains, point to point through the story.  He must have been a tough old bird from the sound of it.  Still the missing link;  where is the mine and how far is it away from the Doc's place.  It is in the Tontos by the way.

 

 good point  if i do know where the real LDM is then where is doc's and i will tell you from a insight only i would have at this point if doc's story is true or not ..  give me doc's location and i will map a corse and see if he could have made this trip in the time he said he did ...

The last time I heard of the angle here with the Doc, was again back in the eighties.  There was a paperback in circulation at the time with all of the details you have mentioned.  This version had slipped my mind to be honest.  The version handed down to me through the family from 1883 has held pretty firm.  Once you find the three red hills according to the Native instructions, your pretty much in the ball park of the entire site.  The apex of the infield triangle is within a loud shout.

ORO  you posted -->I don't know about Waltz having a favorite prostitute in Florence
*************

Would you please clarify that ?  Is that like a hot bath & shave?  Hotel? Resturante ? Cantina?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Blindbowman wrote

good point  if i do know where the real LDM is then where is doc's and i will tell you from a insight only i would have at this point if doc's story is true or not ..  give me doc's location and i will map a corse and see if he could have made this trip in the time he said he did ...

I think you want the site of the Pima Indian villages on the Gila river rather than Dr Walker's home site, which is where Weiser actually made it to in that run for his life.  Here is a link to a map done in 1870, which is very close to the date in which Weiser is believed to have made his last run; the site he made it to is shown on this map as "Pima Village"; Dr Walker's home was not far distant, nor for that matter was Adams Mill far distant, where Waltz was getting a new load of provisions at that very moment.  Weiser was fleeing in the correct general direction to find his partner, was not off by many miles if you think about it.

http://cartweb.geography.ua.edu:900...on)&style=simple/view-dhtml.xsl

ORO  you posted -->I don't know about Waltz having a favorite prostitute in Florence
*************

Would you please clarify that ?  Is that like a hot bath & shave?  Hotel? Resturante ? Cantina?

Don Jose de La Mancha

It is a type of physical and mental therapist, similar in cost to doctors and lawyers.  The other points you have mentioned are, as far as I know, "optional".   

 
Oroblanco

Wiser seems to have only visited the mine that one first time if I remember.  What doesn't figure in the Doc's story, would have one wondering why didn't Wiser and Waltz ever hook up again if the guy was supposed to have survived or did he?  3 days on horseback.  Wounded, weak and on foot?  No water?  Still the story is favorable with all of the writing done and with so many characters;  kind grows on ya..........

Hola amigo,

According to the story from Doc Walker, Weiser died at his home and was buried there.  I have some doubt that this happened, as there doesn't seem to be a grave, and there is at least one Weiser still living elsewhere in Arizona years later that could be the same person.  Did Weiser recover enough to leave Walker's home, and people just assumed that he died there?  If Weiser did survive that attack, he must have decided never to return to the mine.  I guess that I could not blame him either. 

I don't have the sources handy, but Weiser fled on horseback a few miles until the horse was hit by arrows, then afoot until he found water, there he left his gun as he was too weak to carry it.  If you look on a map and see where the Pima villages were (I have a heck of a time pin-pointing it on the modern map of AZ) and then Adams Mill (which was close to, but not IN Adamsville, W of Florence) you can see that Weiser must have been running in the direction he believed Waltz had gone because he ended up just a few miles away from Adams Mill.  I am not sure that it was three days either, in fact I think that Weiser said he expected Waltz to be back at the mine on the fourth day after he left, so that would be two days going and two in returning, so it was two days ride leading pack mules from Adams Mill to the mine.  As to what that distance amounts to is a matter of some dispute.  I think Weiser's last run was also two days, and included his sitting at the water hole for "most of the day".  The water hole might be helpful too, for Weiser did say it was the "first water hole he knew of" (I may not have that exactly right but think it is) so exactly what water hole was he talking about?  It must be on the route between the Pima villages and the mine, right?  If you think about it, while Weiser was dying at Doc Walker's, Waltz must have been just about arriving at the mine and discovering his bloody shirt.  <Another key clue that the attackers may not have been Apache, for no Apache would leave a good shirt behind>

Sheesh sorry for getting carried away there, and I look forward to your reply. 
Oroblanco

Based on the area I feel to be the site, first water would have been N. of the Salt, near Four Peaks.  There was an old well out that way know as last water as I was told.  A cowboy spring? 

Based on the area I feel to be the site, first water would have been N. of the Salt, near Four Peaks.  There was an old well out that way know as last water as I was told.  A cowboy spring? 

I don't think that one will work; remember Dr Walker's home and the Pima Indian villages which are where Weiser fled to, are well south of the Superstition mountains, along the Gila river. Likewise, Florence is on the same river a bit west, and is where Waltz is said to have done considerable business in the early days< *1870s*> so a spring on the north side of the Salt river would be the opposite direction from where Weiser arrived on the Gila river not to mention having to cross the Salt river along the way. Adams Mill, where Waltz went to buy more flour is also located on the Gila river, not that far from the Pima village where Weiser made it.   Interesting theory however, if the LDM were up in the Tontos, but I don't think the rest of the evidence will fit.  Just my opinion, as Joe would say "I could be wrong". 
Oroblanco

Tag
Please ignore.

Hola amigo,

According to the story from Doc Walker, Weiser died at his home and was buried there.  I have some doubt that this happened, as there doesn't seem to be a grave, and there is at least one Weiser still living elsewhere in Arizona years later that could be the same person.  Did Weiser recover enough to leave Walker's home, and people just assumed that he died there?  If Weiser did survive that attack, he must have decided never to return to the mine.  I guess that I could not blame him either. 

I don't have the sources handy, but Weiser fled on horseback a few miles until the horse was hit by arrows, then afoot until he found water, there he left his gun as he was too weak to carry it.  If you look on a map and see where the Pima villages were (I have a heck of a time pin-pointing it on the modern map of AZ) and then Adams Mill (which was close to, but not IN Adamsville, W of Florence) you can see that Weiser must have been running in the direction he believed Waltz had gone because he ended up just a few miles away from Adams Mill.  I am not sure that it was three days either, in fact I think that Weiser said he expected Waltz to be back at the mine on the fourth day after he left, so that would be two days going and two in returning, so it was two days ride leading pack mules from Adams Mill to the mine.  As to what that distance amounts to is a matter of some dispute.  I think Weiser's last run was also two days, and included his sitting at the water hole for "most of the day".  The water hole might be helpful too, for Weiser did say it was the "first water hole he knew of" (I may not have that exactly right but think it is) so exactly what water hole was he talking about?  It must be on the route between the Pima villages and the mine, right?  If you think about it, while Weiser was dying at Doc Walker's, Waltz must have been just about arriving at the mine and discovering his bloody shirt.  <Another key clue that the attackers may not have been Apache, for no Apache would leave a good shirt behind>

Sheesh sorry for getting carried away there, and I look forward to your reply. 
Oroblanco

 

thats not really true . i am reading the sims  ely 1964 book  and he dose not say that Weiser is barried at his home ,he only says he died there after 4 days .. in fact he says

" the burial ground down the river,which held the remains of other soldiers and overland travelers who had  died among the friendly Pimas"  my first impression of this book a good read some flash but for the most part a sims acount  with some back ground data ...

some parts are very interesting  why other parts have little to do with anything about the legend .. some of the people in the back ground . have little to do with the mine its self ..

Hola amigo,

According to the story from Doc Walker, Weiser died at his home and was buried there.  I have some doubt that this happened, as there doesn't seem to be a grave, and there is at least one Weiser still living elsewhere in Arizona years later that could be the same person.  Did Weiser recover enough to leave Walker's home, and people just assumed that he died there?  If Weiser did survive that attack, he must have decided never to return to the mine.  I guess that I could not blame him either. 

I don't have the sources handy, but Weiser fled on horseback a few miles until the horse was hit by arrows, then afoot until he found water, there he left his gun as he was too weak to carry it.  If you look on a map and see where the Pima villages were (I have a heck of a time pin-pointing it on the modern map of AZ) and then Adams Mill (which was close to, but not IN Adamsville, W of Florence) you can see that Weiser must have been running in the direction he believed Waltz had gone because he ended up just a few miles away from Adams Mill.  I am not sure that it was three days either, in fact I think that Weiser said he expected Waltz to be back at the mine on the fourth day after he left, so that would be two days going and two in returning, so it was two days ride leading pack mules from Adams Mill to the mine.  As to what that distance amounts to is a matter of some dispute.  I think Weiser's last run was also two days, and included his sitting at the water hole for "most of the day".  The water hole might be helpful too, for Weiser did say it was the "first water hole he knew of" (I may not have that exactly right but think it is) so exactly what water hole was he talking about?  It must be on the route between the Pima villages and the mine, right?  If you think about it, while Weiser was dying at Doc Walker's, Waltz must have been just about arriving at the mine and discovering his bloody shirt.  <Another key clue that the attackers may not have been Apache, for no Apache would leave a good shirt behind>

Sheesh sorry for getting carried away there, and I look forward to your reply. 
Oroblanco

 

thats not really true . i am reading the sims  ely 1964 book  and he dose not say that Weiser is barried at his home ,he only says he died there after 4 days .. in fact he says

" the burial ground down the river,which held the remains of other soldiers and overland travelers who had  died among the friendly Pimas"  my first impression of this book a good read some flash but for the most part a sims acount  with some back ground data ...

some parts are very interesting  why other parts have little to do with anything about the legend .. some of the people in the back ground . have little to do with the mine its self ..

I was working from memory not with book in hand amigo, and memory can fail you.  Also Ely's account of Weiser is not the only source, there are some minor differences in other versions.  I am glad you have Ely's book, as Sims Ely is the only published source that is known to have actually interviewed people whom were close to Waltz, so is about as close as we can get to Waltz's own words.  If you have Barks notes as well, and Bicknell's two articles, these are the closest sources available.  Unfortunately Bicknell is one of the worst, he added in a large portion of fiction before publishing, it is difficult to find any detail in his version that can be definitely identified and corroborated in other sources as originating with Jacob Waltz. 

If the whole story of Jacob Weiser is true (I believe it is) we have some important clues to the location of the mine, and coincidentally, a bit of support to the 'old timers' of Florence who claim that Waltz did business there.  One look at the map and you wonder why Waltz was traveling to Adams Mill for flour, or to Florence for business, if he could so easily and more quickly go elsewhere.  There must be reason why he chose to go there, rather than simply doing business in Phoenix where his homestead was located.
Oroblanco

Blindbowman wrote

i think the ringing of my hammer disgrees .....

A ringing hammer can never solve this mystery, nor prove the LDM found.  Gold can. 

Blindbowman wrote

i think the ringing of my hammer disgrees .....

A ringing hammer can never solve this mystery, nor prove the LDM found.  Gold can.  

Used to hear a lot of ringing on the Gong Show back when.
Brings back memories.
Just sayin,ya know....SH.

So how far do you estimate Waltz would travel in two days time, leading mules?  This question is for anyone who cares to give a guess, educated or not, or carefully calculated estimate, and thank you in advance.   
Oroblanco

Roy:
 A frugal man such as Waltz may have gone to Adams Mill or Florence for the best price or other reasons of a similar nature.Credit vs cash,or quality etc.Nowadays,folks drive miles to save 3 cents per gallon of gas so I wouldn't make his source of supply a principal clue as to the location of the LDM,IMHO.

Regards:SH.

at a full run chaseing julia  he could cover about 25 miles ...lol

i dont think waltz went there to save 3 cents on gas ...lol

Roy:
 A frugal man such as Waltz may have gone to Adams Mill or Florence for the best price or other reasons of a similar nature.Credit vs cash,or quality etc.Nowadays,folks drive miles to save 3 cents per gallon of gas so I wouldn't make his source of supply a principal clue as to the location of the LDM,IMHO.

Regards:SH.

Agreed, there could be other reasons as well, like personal safety, considering how the people of Phoenix were he may have had good reason not to want anyone there to know about his mine.  However why would Weiser run to a place for aid that was farther away than a town that might be closer?  Would a wounded man, choose to run to a settlement that is farther away than the nearest town, with hostile Indians chasing him and firing arrows?  This alone suggests that the mine is in some way closer to Adams Mill and the Pima villages than Phoenix, or that the route there is easier which is arguable.  Thank you for the thought-out reply.
Oroblanco

Roy:
 A frugal man such as Waltz may have gone to Adams Mill or Florence for the best price or other reasons of a similar nature.Credit vs cash,or quality etc.Nowadays,folks drive miles to save 3 cents per gallon of gas so I wouldn't make his source of supply a principal clue as to the location of the LDM,IMHO.

Regards:SH.

Agreed, there could be other reasons as well, like personal safety, considering how the people of Phoenix were he may have had good reason not to want anyone there to know about his mine.  However why would Weiser run to a place for aid that was farther away than a town that might be closer?  Would a wounded man, choose to run to a settlement that is farther away than the nearest town, with hostile Indians chasing him and firing arrows?  'This alone suggests that the mine is in some way closer to Adams Mill and the Pima villages than Phoenix', or that the route there is easier which is arguable.  Thank you for the thought-out reply.
Oroblanco

  There are stories about the Black Legion, a group of militant Native Americans, who protect the sacred burial grounds on Peter’s Mesa. The Black Legion is supposedly well trained in traditional Apache culture, and their purpose is to prevent looting and robbing of their ancestor’s graves. These sacred burial areas are within the confines of the Superstition Wilderness.
Another interesting story to do with the area was the death of Walt Gassler. Walt died of a heart attack after leaving Charlebois Spring hiking toward Peter’s Mesa. He died along the trail. His body was discovered by Gene Baker and Don Shade on May 4, 1984. It is claimed he had some very rich gold specimens in his backpack. These specimens apparently disappeared when his backpack was reclaimed at Sheriff’s Office.

Those gold ore specimens are the key reason why I count Walt Gassler as the single case of someone actually finding the Lost Dutchman mine; a man claiming to be his "son" later met with Tom Kollenborn and showed him a piece of ore that he said came from his father's backpack, and Tom said it is identical with the known Dutchman ore.  Tom K. is a qualified geologist, so that statement carries a bit of weight for me. 
Oroblanco

So how far do you estimate Waltz would travel in two days time, leading mules?  This question is for anyone who cares to give a guess, educated or not, or carefully calculated estimate, and thank you in advance.  
Oroblanco

Keeping in mind there were no roads, any trails (if any) would be very rough. The terrain, mules, water, food, rest, and so on - 4.5-5 miles avg per day would be the max. Especially in the Supes.

Jerry

Thank you Javaone - that would make it roughly 10-11 miles for a two day travel.  Part of the country is not so bad for traveling though, especially once you are OUT of the Superstitions on the south side.  (The country between the Gila river and the Superstitions) 
Roy

Thank you Javaone - that would make it roughly 10-11 miles for a two day travel.  Part of the country is not so bad for traveling though, especially once you are OUT of the Superstitions on the south side.  (The country between the Gila river and the Superstitions) 
Roy

Thanks Roy, I was thinking more about the Supes, not the flat lands. Relatively speaking.

Jerry

I figured that, but we know that Adams Mill was located on the Gila river not far from where Adamsville is now so it is some distance from the Superstitions.  Likewise, we know that Weiser made it to the Pima villages on the Gila river, which are downstream a few miles from Adams Mill but also some ways from the Superstitions.  It may not amount to anything, but this whole part of the legend has bothered me for the idea of the mine being so close to Weavers Needle.  It does not make sense (to me) to travel so far from Weavers Needle if the mine were close to it, when Phoenix would have been an easier and shorter trip, but there are other possible reasons too.
Roy

Thank you Javaone - that would make it roughly 10-11 miles for a two day travel.  Part of the country is not so bad for traveling though, especially once you are OUT of the Superstitions on the south side.  (The country between the Gila river and the Superstitions)  
Roy

Thanks Roy, I was thinking more about the Supes, not the flat lands. Relatively speaking.

Jerry

   Jerry I would like to show a comparison example of what is being done so it might be a different amount depending who your talking about as far as mules Mr. Real De Tapoya I Mean Tayopa is the expert.    Two Routes Offered

Participants entering the Bataan Memorial Death March may choose between two routes. The different routes are clearly marked with colors/signs directing marchers.  

The GREEN route is the full 26.2 mile Bataan Memorial Death March. Awards will be given to the top two finishers in each route category. Those marching the 26.2 miles will be able to experience, in part, what the Soldiers endured during their long trek through the Philippines. Participants of this full march will follow signs clearly identifying the GREEN route.
•26.2 miles

•Desert trails and washes

•4,100-5,300 feet elevation

The 26.2 mile memorial march route starts on the White Sands main post, crosses dusty and hilly desert terrain, circles a small mountain and returns to the main post through sandy desert trails and washes. The elevation ranges from about 4,100 to 5,300 feet.  Be sure to look at the course description page.

The BLUE route is approximately 15 miles in length. This shorter march is designed for participates who would like to memorialize Bataan but do not wish to march the full 26.2 mile route. There are NO awards given for this march. Participants of this shorter march will follow signs clearly identifying the BLUE route.
Our Mule Expert Quoted:  "Seriously, the distance a loaded burro / mule can travel is exactly the same as the driver or handle'er can travel in the same period of time.." 

Don Jose de La Mancha

Roy:
 A frugal man such as Waltz may have gone to Adams Mill or Florence for the best price or other reasons of a similar nature.Credit vs cash,or quality etc.Nowadays,folks drive miles to save 3 cents per gallon of gas so I wouldn't make his source of supply a principal clue as to the location of the LDM,IMHO.

Regards:SH.

I figured that, but we know that Adams Mill was located on the Gila river not far from where Adamsville is now so it is some distance from the Superstitions.  Likewise, we know that Weiser made it to the Pima villages on the Gila river, which are downstream a few miles from Adams Mill but also some ways from the Superstitions.  It may not amount to anything, but this whole part of the legend has bothered me for the idea of the mine being so close to Weavers Needle.  It does not make sense (to me) to travel so far from Weavers Needle if the mine were close to it, when Phoenix would have been an easier and shorter trip, but there are other possible reasons too.
Roy

Roy and SH,

Roy, I like the direction of your thinking. I have been struggling with this for a while now as well. It seems a long way to go to save a couple of cents. Today that round trip would take 2-3 hours, back then it would be 2-3 days.

Now whether it’s today or back then, if you are wounded and fearing for your life, wouldn’t you head to the nearest place possible?

For over 100 years thousands of prospectors and “want to be’s” have been turning over every stone around the weavers needle area, and those stones have probably been turned over times 10.

I sometimes wonder if Waltz ever really intended to allow anyone to find his mine. Sure, there are clues he gave that were most likely true, but I feel he allowed everyone to assume the mine was in that general area; laughing all the while. 

Jerry

Jerry,
I really believe you are right.

Roy:
 A frugal man such as Waltz may have gone to Adams Mill or Florence for the best price or other reasons of a similar nature.Credit vs cash,or quality etc.Nowadays,folks drive miles to save 3 cents per gallon of gas so I wouldn't make his source of supply a principal clue as to the location of the LDM,IMHO.

Regards:SH.

I figured that, but we know that Adams Mill was located on the Gila river not far from where Adamsville is now so it is some distance from the Superstitions.  Likewise, we know that Weiser made it to the Pima villages on the Gila river, which are downstream a few miles from Adams Mill but also some ways from the Superstitions.  It may not amount to anything, but this whole part of the legend has bothered me for the idea of the mine being so close to Weavers Needle.  It does not make sense (to me) to travel so far from Weavers Needle if the mine were close to it, when Phoenix would have been an easier and shorter trip, but there are other possible reasons too.
Roy

Roy and SH,

Roy, I like the direction of your thinking. I have been struggling with this for a while now as well. It seems a long way to go to save a couple of cents. Today that round trip would take 2-3 hours, back then it would be 2-3 days.

Now whether it’s today or back then, if you are wounded and fearing for your life, wouldn’t you head to the nearest place possible?

For over 100 years thousands of prospectors and “want to be’s” have been turning over every stone around the weavers needle area, and those stones have probably been turned over times 10.

I sometimes wonder if Waltz ever really intended to allow anyone to find his mine. Sure, there are clues he gave that were most likely true, but I feel he allowed everyone to assume the mine was in that general area; laughing all the while. 

Jerry

Hola amigo,
You have hit on two key points that argue against the LDM being anywhere near Weavers Needle.  A wounded man would most logically head for the closest assistance.  The fact that Waltz went to Adams Mill for flour when they were in need of it, and that Weiser ran much the same direction and ended up not so far away from Adams Mill, plus the fact that thousands upon thousands of people have gone over the Weavers Needle region practically with a fine-tooth comb, certainly points toward the mine being located elsewhere.  One more key item that is ignored by too many Dutch-hunters too - that Waltz's homestead was practically IN Phoenix, from 1868 on.  This may appear insignificant, and if Waltz had discovered the mine prior to staking his homestead, it would point toward the western Superstitions by default.  However even though we do not know the exact date when Waltz made his discovery, most probably it was after 1868.  That would mean that Waltz had his homestead when he was at the mine with Weiser; when they had the incident with the mule eating the flour, he could have just as easily gone HOME to Phoenix if they were in the western end of the Superstitions, but instead he went to Adams Mill.  To me, that is highly significant.

Weiser may well be the key player of the Lost Dutchman legend.  This is also very important for those who have been claiming to have found the Lost Dutchman mine - if your site is of such a character that it requires rock-climbing gear to get into it, do you really believe that a wounded man would be able to escape attacking Indians from such a spot?  Isn't it more likely that the actual mine site is in truth, accessible to horses and mules?  Remember, Weiser fled ON HORSEBACK for the first few miles; he said nothing about having to climb down a cliff to catch a horse and then get on it to escape, so it may be logical to assume that the horse was tethered or staked quite close to the mine; close enough that the moment Weiser was hit by an arrow, or very shortly afterwards, he was able to simply grab the horse and take off for help.

Of course for those who dismiss Dr Walker's story of Weiser, and instead believe in Waltz murdering his 'nephew' in cold blood for some incomprehensible motive, then Adams Mill and the Pima village are not important at all.  The problems with that version are several - one being we can't find anyone to fit that 'nephew', there is no clear motive to be killing him, and the source of the story is questionable.  Even the picture of Waltz being such a cold-blooded murderer of a blood relative does not match with his known behavior to his friends in Phoenix, however no one who knew him seemed to think he was incapable of killing either.  However, consider this - when (according to Dick Holmes) Waltz caught Holmes tracking and trailing him back to the mine, he got him in his sights and could have killed him by simply pulling the trigger and very likely no one would have ever known it, but he chose to simply let that scare of death frighten away Holmes rather than kill him.  Does that sound like a cold blooded murderer, or just what an experienced prospector and gold miner would do to protect his interests?

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Roy, Javaone et al,
Also, let us not forget where Julia and Reinhart _started_ their look for the cache/mine. They may not have listened sufficiently to the finer details, but you would think that at least they would get the entry-point right ... which would be from the south-western part. i haven't check out the distance from the Hieroglyph canyon to Phoenix/Adams Mill, but from memory (ha, ha), I would say its six or half-a-dozen.

Per

Per,

Good to see another normal person posting.  I believe we are a dying breed over here.

Your point is a good one, but Julia and Rhiney actually made their first attempt to enter the mountains at Hog Canyon.....I believe. 

When Brownie Holmes started his "systematic search......by starting out at Superstition Mountain, the main mountain of the range, and gradually working north and east, thoroughly examining every canyon as I went."  My guess is that Dick Holmes had followed Julia and Rhiney on their trips to the range and knew where they were trying to go.

The main mountain seems the likely area that Julia and Rhiney tried to reach with their wagon.  Waltz had told them they would be going over the mountain to get to his mine.  They were looking for a specific view, IMHO, and it was not something they told Bark or Ely.  Either  those two left that information out of their writings, or someone took it out.  They would see that view from the ridge line of the main mountain.

Perhaps this is what they were told to look for:




Once they missed the correct location to enter the mountains and moved north to First Water, they could never find the correct view that would point out the location of Waltz's mine.

Anyway.......that makes for a fine story.

Don't mean to interrupt the flow here.  Please continue.

Take care,

Joe

Joe, I know you've mentioned more than once that Julia and Rhiney made their first search through Hog Canyon.  I know you put alot of stock in Sims Ely, so why don't you believe when Sims says that Helena (Julia) sold her business and with Rhiney took a wagon and team to First Water on the northerly side of the Superstition Wall and walked into the mountains from that direction?
 

Joe,
Oh shucks - I must've had a brainfart (easy when you get to my tender age)! Indeed I meant Hog canyon - I've no idea as to why I wrote Hieroglyph canyon.

Per

/edit/
And of course, I'm not going to ask _where_ and _how_ you got that li'l scetch of Jacob's, but where is it from?? I've never,ever seen that one referred to before .. ;-)

Per,


Your point is a good one, but Julia and Rhiney actually made their first attempt to enter the mountains at Hog Canyon.....I believe.  

When Brownie Holmes started his "systematic search......by starting out at Superstition Mountain, the main mountain of the range, and gradually working north and east, thoroughly examining every canyon as I went."  My guess is that Dick Holmes had followed Julia and Rhiney on their trips to the range and knew where they were trying to go.

The main mountain seems the likely area that Julia and Rhiney tried to reach with their wagon.  Waltz had told them they would be going over the mountain to get to his mine.  They were looking for a specific view, IMHO, and it was not something they told Bark or Ely.  Either  those two left that information out of their writings, or someone took it out.  They would see that view from the ridge line of the main mountain.

Perhaps this is what they were told to look for:




Once they missed the correct location to enter the mountains and moved north to First Water, they could never find the correct view that would point out the location of Waltz's mine.

Anyway.......that makes for a fine story.

Don't mean to interrupt the flow here.  Please continue.

Take care,

Joe


I really love the map      Thankyou Cactus

Santa Fe NM wrote

Ditto That: "Good to see another normal person posting.  I believe we are a dying breed over here."

I really love the map      Thankyou Cactus

I see you have now overlain your Google Earth images with that hand-drawn map; do you think that is a good alignment with the place you have put it?  I don't see it matching well at all this time, the main mountain line is cutting across a ridge for example. 

If you can answer my next question well, it will go quite some ways to support your claim that you have found the LDM by using Google Earth, here is the question.

Exactly how do you tell the difference between a man-made hand-dug mineshaft, or a hand-dug water well, or a natural sinkhole, on Google Earth John? 

I am asking this because I have seen people here on T-net post photos of hand dug water wells, saying it is a mine shaft.  I would like to hear exactly how you tell the differences, on satellite photos, when people have walked up to water wells and mistook them for mineshafts, and vice-versa.  I would think that it would be next to impossible to determine from satellite photos alone.  Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

do you think that is a good alignment  No and its not a good drawing either but it gives a rough idea. you know my grandfather was always doodleing on napkins at restaurants. you should have seen.

I take it that you have no answer to my question?   

You don't know how to tell the difference do you?  I don't either; it is not possible to tell the difference from a satellite image alone as far as I know, which is one of the big reasons why I remain un-convinced that you found anything of importance, let alone the Lost Dutchman mine.  Thank you for finally clearing that issue up for me however, and now perhaps you can understand why I remain so skeptical of what you claim to have found.

Best of luck with your movie ventures, I will sure make the trip to the theater to see it and not even wait for it to come out on DVD.  
Oroblanco

[is my own words]

Santa Fe NM wrote

You don't know how to tell the difference No Oro "You dont know how to tell the difference"   ((((You)))) are putting words in my mouth again, and them are fightn words you better delete them before I Squeal on you to jeff and your banned from here forever!!!!!!! This is your LAST WARNING before I BLOW THE WHISTLE.

Ah, but John I stated it as a question, and like the earlier question you dodged, is my own words.   Did I hit a nerve when we found out you can't tell the difference between a water well and a mineshaft?  Lots of people can't tell that difference while standing next to them, let alone from a satellite image amigo.   Feel free to go ahead and blow the whistle on me, have me banned forever etc however your open threat of "fighting words" makes it seem as if you have a hot temper.  Do you have a hot temper John?  I would suggest that you try to control your temper in your future pursuit of your dreams, for it will not help you get a movie contract signed, nor a book deal, if you lose your temper just because of such a simple discussion as we are having here. 

Good luck and good hunting Santa Fe NM, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.   
Oroblanco

Hi Paul,

[Joe, I know you've mentioned more than once that Julia and Rhiney made their first search through Hog Canyon.  I know you put alot of stock in Sims Ely, so why don't you believe when Sims says that Helena (Julia) sold her business and with Rhiney took a wagon and team to First Water on the northerly side of the Superstition Wall and walked into the mountains from that direction?]

Actually, I've been saying that for many years now.  I am aware of what is in Ely's book, but my guess is that this fact was one of the things from the Bark Notes that the family asked, or told him, to leave out.

"As I was riding the range about six miles west of the home ranch in August 1892 or 1893.  I met some campers near an old well belonging to ranch, and they proved to be a colored woman by the name of Thomas and a young man about 18 years old by the name of Rhiney Petrach, whom Mr. and Mrs. Thomas had adopted."  The Bark Notes.

"Six miles west of the home ranch" (Quarter Circle-U) puts them at Hog Canyon.  For many reasons, Hog Canyon makes perfect sense.

Take care,

Joe

Moderator Comment

 YOU CONTINUE TO PROVOKE OTHERS ON THIS FORUM. We reserve the right to ban any user, and/or delete any user account (including all posts) at any time, for any reason. Bans are not subject to member review, approval, protest, or appeal.
GET THE HINT?

Very Clearly Jeff, I Definateley get the hint, Say No More Consider it "Clear" to me and All.

Santa Fe NM wrote

Your only goal has been to shoot me down since my first day here a year ago hitting a nerve is an understatement. If you want to argue keep bringing it!       

Wrong amigo, I have been asking you to convince me that what you claim is true, but you refuse.

Santa Fe NM also wrote

Whats the real problem here Roy. youve never liked me from day one. you act like some negative reporter, that will chew you up as that you so often talk about, are you the news reporter and if you really think thats how they act why are you acting like that?    Whats your problem and what are you trying to prove by trying to disect me. You have an open floor to challenge my case but why are you making this   PERSONAL

Who said I never liked you?  I said I don't trust you, not dislike you.  You have been the first to get hostile and make personal attacks and insults on me every time John, and I tried to be polite to you even when you were being rude, nasty, sarcastic and even threatening.  This new hostile "act" that YOU are putting on tells me that indeed, you do not know how to tell the difference between a hand dug water well and a mineshaft, and I even told you that most people can't so you should not be upset that you are not able to do what most people are not able to do.  There is absolutely nothing personal in it at all, except from YOUR side.

Santa Fe NM also wrote

""""Spill It Roy"""" Right HERE OUT IN THE OPEN whats your BEEF?

What does strike me about you is that you want all the glory and fame of being "the" one who found the Lost Dutchman gold mine, but are not willing to do what it takes to EARN THAT HONOR.  You have not presented anything much different from the claims of at least 99 other people who claimed to have found the Lost Dutchman, but never seem to have a speck of GOLD.  If you are able to pull it off and get that kind of honor and fame, without ever having to come up with any ORE, good for you, more power to you, hope your movie makes you rich and your book goes on the NY bestseller list; however without that ore matching Waltz's ore, some of us just won't believe you found that Lost Dutchman mine.  It is no skin off my nose, and shouldn't be any off yours.

Santa Fe NM wrote

ORO WROTE:   "if you lose your temper just because of such a simple discussion as we are having here"     DUDE youve been provoking me non stop for one year TEMPER IS AN UNDERSTATEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you think that I am provoking you, wait until you have that press announcement meeting!  They will be like a pack of wolves to you John, for they want FACTS not hot air.  You need to take a chill pill before you blow a gasket.    Quit this hostile crap amigo, it will never prove your case and in fact will make people LESS likely to believe you.
Oroblanco

ORO WROTE:   "if you lose your temper just because of such a simple discussion as we are having here"     DUDE youve been provoking me non stop for one year TEMPER IS AN UNDERSTATEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not provoking, Just asking a question.
stop dodging and answer.
simple solution.

Per,

"And of course, I'm not going to ask _where_ and _how_ you got that li'l scetch of Jacob's, but where is it from?? I've never,ever seen that one referred to before .."

I've posted that picture many times on different forums, including here.  Probably the first time I didn't give proper credit as to the source.  It's an interesting story, but I will not post it here.  You will need to buy Helen Corbin's book, "The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz."  Page 134

I have two copies, one in soft cover and the other leather bound.  The leather-bound hard cover was given to me as a gift.  I count it as one of the many treasures I have received from my years of keeping close company with the Superstition Mountains and her legends.

Take care,

Joe

[lies?]

Lets See I love Cactus I love Jim I love ellie baba I love twisted fork I love beth I love jeff I love ancient ones I love tom I love Jesus. I HAVE NO LOVE FOR Roy A Decker Because hes alway givin me a rash of sh...

It seems like a ration to you, because you will not do what it takes to prove that you really did find the Lost Dutchman.  So you have no love for me, because I am open and honest with you about what you need to do if you really want that fame and honor.  Sheesh.     Would you prefer if I just LIED to you and told you wonderful congratulations, kudos etc thus helping to set you up for a major embarrassment and disappointment when you try to present your case to the news media?  What kind of friend would that be, to just tell you lies?  Is that what you want, lies?  
Roy A. Decker

Quite the opposite Roy A Decker I have been asking you to convince me that what I claim With my Discovery is NOT true, but it is you WHO Refuse.

OLD DOG YOU DONT HAVE A CLUE

Little man,
When you can say you have as many years "on the ground" as I have ... (or even a fraction of).
I will give you the benifit of that doubt.
Until then, I believe you have just lost any credibility you may have had.
Have fun with google earth,
I think your game wears thin.

Don't give up your day job.

Quite the opposite Roy A Decker I have been asking you to convince me that what I claim With my Discovery is NOT true, but it is you WHO Refuse.

Why do you keep using my full name?  Is it faster and easier?  You have said that you are a smart man; if that is true, then you know in your own heart that your statement here is totally backwards from reality; when ever someone makes a claim to have made a new discovery - THAT PERSON HAS TO PROVE IT.  I do not claim to have found the Lost Dutchman gold mine, YOU do.  Therefore, as several others have told you repeatedly, the burden of proof is on you.  You won't even answer my questions about your discovery and how you discovered it, so I don't know how you expect that people are going to just swallow your story.

You can go ahead and post a barrage, call me names, complain to the mods etc whatever will make you happy John, but I am through even trying to talk to you.  You misunderstand too much, refuse to answer too much, get hostile too much.  My patience with you is at an end.  I think you will have major problems in getting the deals and recognition you seek.
Oroblanco

Santa Fe New Mexican, <John> - as much as I hate to use it, and try to avoid it, consider yourself on IGNORE.  Good luck in your future endeavors.  

The truth is Roy A. Decker knows I John V. Kemm found the ldm, and he just cant stand it, so he does every thing he can to avoid accepting it but deep inside he knows .    Many Many People Know That I Have Found It      

Beth Quoted: They had a bunch of different maps in their vehicle - including some stuff from your "I found the LDM using Google Earth".

Quoted From News:   It was the third time Merworth had come to the Superstitions looking for treasure. Searchers rescued him from the terrain in May 2009.

His mother, Carol, described him as "gold crazy," in an interview before the search was suspended.

"""""He was certain he was going to find this mine,""""" she said.
YOU TELL ME???

I encourage anyone to investigate this finding of mine the exact coordinates are 33°26'46.06"N 111°21'44.38"W 1847m (lattitude longitude and range) HERE IS A PICTURE FROM GOOGLE EARTH! http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/ubbthrea...d&Number=803112&filename=33°26'46.06N 111°21'44.38W.kmz DOWNLOAD GOOGLE EARTH NOW TO VIEW THE ABOVE LINK http://earth.google.com/


Beth Says they had my stuff this is the only stuff there is that she is refering.

It was the """"third time"""" Merworth had come to the Superstitions """""He was certain he was going to find this mine,"""""  Why was he so certain, and it was his third time? He had failed Twice Before and somehow made it home both times. What makes this trip so different?

Santa Fe New Mexican, <John> - as much as I hate to use it, and try to avoid it, consider yourself on IGNORE.  Good luck in your future endeavors.  

Roy A Decker HAHAHA,

Congratulations! You have FINALLY done what every other rational poster at TNet has done; PUT KEMMY ON IGNORE!

Now, whatever you do, don't fall into the trap and peek at his ramblings, or you will get sucked back into his pot smoke induced vortex of ignorint ramblings.

Best-Mike

Hi Paul,

[Joe, I know you've mentioned more than once that Julia and Rhiney made their first search through Hog Canyon.  I know you put alot of stock in Sims Ely, so why don't you believe when Sims says that Helena (Julia) sold her business and with Rhiney took a wagon and team to First Water on the northerly side of the Superstition Wall and walked into the mountains from that direction?]

Actually, I've been saying that for many years now.  I am aware of what is in Ely's book, but my guess is that this fact was one of the things from the Bark Notes that the family asked, or told him, to leave out.

"As I was riding the range about six miles west of the home ranch in August 1892 or 1893.  I met some campers near an old well belonging to ranch, and they proved to be a colored woman by the name of Thomas and a young man about 18 years old by the name of Rhiney Petrach, whom Mr. and Mrs. Thomas had adopted."  The Bark Notes.

"Six miles west of the home ranch" (Quarter Circle-U) puts them at Hog Canyon.  For many reasons, Hog Canyon makes perfect sense.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

While you may be correct in your assumptions, take a step back and look at this from my perspective.  As I mentioned, you've made it clear that you put a great deal of faith in Sims Ely's book and his word.  His book has a definitive provenance - that being that he was the author.  I don't know how much was actually written directly by him, or how much editing took place, etc... but the fact is, it's documented that he is the author.

The Bark notes on the other hand (at least all the copies you and I have seen) have little or no provenance.  There's no proof that they are truly Jim Bark's word at all, in fact one could make a better case that it's likely they are an adulterated version at best, and possibly a fabrication at worst.  You know the stories about how they were "discovered" as well as anyone - as a source of information, at the very least, the Bark Notes as we know them should be strongly questioned as to their accuracy.

I understand why you choose to believe that Julia and Rhiney's first trip was through Hog Canyon, but when you step back and look at why you believe that, it's primarily because it fits your theory correct?  The issue I have is that you can't just pick and choose what parts of something you want to believe just because they match your theory.  Either you believe Sims Ely's book and his word, or you don't - it becomes problematic when parts of his book are used to defend a belief, while other parts are discarded because they don't point in the same direction one wants it to.

Does that make sense?  I honestly don't mean to be argumentative here Joe, and I don't mean to come off as being a smart%#$.  Heck, when it comes down to it, both the Ely story and Bark story about Julia and Rhiney might be correct since neither one actually comes out and says it was their "first" trip into the mountains.  It's implied that way in Ely's book, but never says it.

[Finnally!]

Santa Fe New Mexican, <John> - as much as I hate to use it, and try to avoid it, consider yourself on IGNORE.  Good luck in your future endeavors.  

  Finnally! I can't understand why it took you so long Oro. 

Per,

"And of course, I'm not going to ask _where_ and _how_ you got that li'l scetch of Jacob's, but where is it from?? I've never,ever seen that one referred to before .."

I've posted that picture many times on different forums, including here.  Probably the first time I didn't give proper credit as to the source.  It's an interesting story, but I will not post it here.  You will need to buy Helen Corbin's book, "The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz."  Page 134

I have two copies, one in soft cover and the other leather bound.  The leather-bound hard cover was given to me as a gift.  I count it as one of the many treasures I have received from my years of keeping close company with the Superstition Mountains and her legends.

Take care,

Joe

*lol* ... and I thought I had been through almost everything ever written (on the forums). I believe I must revise that particular notion!
However, I do have the 'bible' so I shall look it up as soon as I get home! Thanks for the tip!

Have a good day (and don't do anything I wouldn't do!) - and take care.
Per

Hi Paul,

[Joe, I know you've mentioned more than once that Julia and Rhiney made their first search through Hog Canyon.  I know you put alot of stock in Sims Ely, so why don't you believe when Sims says that Helena (Julia) sold her business and with Rhiney took a wagon and team to First Water on the northerly side of the Superstition Wall and walked into the mountains from that direction?]

Actually, I've been saying that for many years now.  I am aware of what is in Ely's book, but my guess is that this fact was one of the things from the Bark Notes that the family asked, or told him, to leave out.

"As I was riding the range about six miles west of the home ranch in August 1892 or 1893.  I met some campers near an old well belonging to ranch, and they proved to be a colored woman by the name of Thomas and a young man about 18 years old by the name of Rhiney Petrach, whom Mr. and Mrs. Thomas had adopted."  The Bark Notes.

"Six miles west of the home ranch" (Quarter Circle-U) puts them at Hog Canyon.  For many reasons, Hog Canyon makes perfect sense.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

While you may be correct in your assumptions, take a step back and look at this from my perspective.  As I mentioned, you've made it clear that you put a great deal of faith in Sims Ely's book and his word.  His book has a definitive provenance - that being that he was the author.  I don't know how much was actually written directly by him, or how much editing took place, etc... but the fact is, it's documented that he is the author.

The Bark notes on the other hand (at least all the copies you and I have seen) have little or no provenance.  There's no proof that they are truly Jim Bark's word at all, in fact one could make a better case that it's likely they are an adulterated version at best, and possibly a fabrication at worst.  You know the stories about how they were "discovered" as well as anyone - as a source of information, at the very least, the Bark Notes as we know them should be strongly questioned as to their accuracy.

I understand why you choose to believe that Julia and Rhiney's first trip was through Hog Canyon, but when you step back and look at why you believe that, it's primarily because it fits your theory correct?  The issue I have is that you can't just pick and choose what parts of something you want to believe just because they match your theory.  Either you believe Sims Ely's book and his word, or you don't - it becomes problematic when parts of his book are used to defend a belief, while other parts are discarded because they don't point in the same direction one wants it to.

Does that make sense?  I honestly don't mean to be argumentative here Joe, and I don't mean to come off as being a smart%#$.  Heck, when it comes down to it, both the Ely story and Bark story about Julia and Rhiney might be correct since neither one actually comes out and says it was their "first" trip into the mountains.  It's implied that way in Ely's book, but never says it.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but are you saying that Sims Ely got a bogus set of notes from his partner of fifty or so years (at that time)?

I can fully believe that some things were left out and some places changed while writing to placate the Bark Family who were still hunting the DLM, but not that Ely got a set of bogus notes. ANYWAY, don't you think that since he was there when all this stuff took place that he would know if the notes were accurate or not?

Doesn't make sense to me.

Best-Mike

No Mike - I knew I wasn't making myself very clear in my response to Joe.  I'll try to do better here, but I have a hard time putting it into words.

I don't have the exact documents in front of me, but the first reference Ely makes in his book to Julia and Rhiney attempting to find the mine has them entering the mountains using a wagon and team, heading near first water and entering the mountains to the N of the main mountain.

The reference Joe used to suggest they entered via Hog Canyon came from the Bark Notes - Jim Bark ran across them camped somewhere 6 miles west of the ranch.

If you believe each of those accounts are addressing Julia and Rhiney's FIRST attempt to find the mine, all I'm suggesting is that one of those 2 accounts cannot be correct (if you assume 6 miles west of the ranch is Hog Canyon).  Either you believe Ely's account, or you believe Bark's account - you can't pick and choose which author to believe based on preference.  I think there are enough questions surrounding how the Bark Notes that we've all seen were found and reproduced to wonder more about their authenticity than there are Sims Ely's book.

Does that make sense or did I confuse the issue even more?

Paul,

"I understand why you choose to believe that Julia and Rhiney's first trip was through Hog Canyon, but when you step back and look at why you believe that, it's primarily because it fits your theory correct?  The issue I have is that you can't just pick and choose what parts of something you want to believe just because they match your theory.  Either you believe Sims Ely's book and his word, or you don't - it becomes problematic when parts of his book are used to defend a belief, while other parts are discarded because they don't point in the same direction one wants it to."

While it's true that "it fits" my theory, it also fits many, many other stories and legends of the Superstitions.
I did not shoehorn P.C. Bicknell's article into my theory.  That story was around a few years before I was born.

The "monumented trail" was not something I fit into my theory.  People knew about it years before I was born, as well.  I can't help it that many things "fit" my theory.  Ruth did not take my theories into consideration when he went to Willow Spring.  I did not build or imagine those two monuments on the ridge between West and East Boulder Canyons......Located on the Stone Map Trail.

I did not create the heart in Little Boulder Canyon, in the exact spot that is shown to be the center of the heart in the heart stone.

The thing is, after sooo many years, and sooo many coincidences, I think it's reasonable for me to believe my theories are correct.  I've been sleeping with this mistress for 52 years now.  Believe I know her pretty well.  On the other hand, she does have a few secrets she doesn't share with anyone.

Mike,

Believe you have the correct outlook here.  I don't see any advantage to not believing Ely and Bark.  Even though I am sure there are some tales there, I do see the advantage in accepting everything they wrote as true, even when it doesn't agree with my own conclusions.  It seems prudent to check it out on the ground......if possible.

Take care,

Joe

  I think there are enough questions surrounding how the Bark Notes that we've all seen were found and reproduced to wonder more about their authenticity

Hey Paul,can you go into further detail about this?

Paul,

"I understand why you choose to believe that Julia and Rhiney's first trip was through Hog Canyon, but when you step back and look at why you believe that, it's primarily because it fits your theory correct?  The issue I have is that you can't just pick and choose what parts of something you want to believe just because they match your theory.  Either you believe Sims Ely's book and his word, or you don't - it becomes problematic when parts of his book are used to defend a belief, while other parts are discarded because they don't point in the same direction one wants it to."

While it's true that "it fits" my theory, it also fits many, many other stories and legends of the Superstitions.
I did not shoehorn P.C. Bicknell's article into my theory.  That story was around a few years before I was born.

The "monumented trail" was not something I fit into my theory.  People knew about it years before I was born, as well.  I can't help it that many things "fit" my theory.  Ruth did not take my theories into consideration when he went to Willow Spring.  I did not build or imagine those two monuments on the ridge between West and East Boulder Canyons......Located on the Stone Map Trail.

I did not create the heart in Little Boulder Canyon, in the exact spot that is shown to be the center of the heart in the heart stone.

The thing is, after sooo many years, and sooo many coincidences, I think it's reasonable for me to believe my theories are correct.  I've been sleeping with this mistress for 52 years now.  Believe I know her pretty well.  On the other hand, she does have a few secrets she doesn't share with anyone.

Mike,

Believe you have the correct outlook here.  I don't see any advantage to not believing Ely and Bark.  Even though I am sure there are some tales there, I do see the advantage in accepting everything they wrote as true, even when it doesn't agree with my own conclusions.  It seems prudent to check it out on the ground......if possible.

Take care,

Joe

Joe & Mike,

I guess I'm just not getting my point across.  I said nothing at all about Bicknell, Ruth, Willow Spring, Boulder Canyon, monumented trail or the heart in Little Boulder Canyon - those are all separate discussions and have no bearing at all on my point.

My point very simply is this...

If you believe Rhiney and Julia entered the mountains on their FIRST trip via Hog Canyon - following Waltz's directions as best they could, then Sims Ely's notation about them entering N of the main mountain near First Water can't be correct.  Why would two men who worked as partners together have different stories?

  I think there are enough questions surrounding how the Bark Notes that we've all seen were found and reproduced to wonder more about their authenticity

Hey Paul,can you go into further detail about this?

The story as I've heard it (and there are a few different ones if you can imagine that  ) is that a relative of Jim Bark got access to a set of notes after Bark passed away.  These notes have been described as a diary, a set of notes or even a rough draft of a manuscript to be published at a later date.  They were supposed to be recorded by Jim Bark during the years he looked for the Lost Dutchman Mine - much of which was while he was partnered with Sims Ely.

As the story goes (this one at least), this relative carried the set of notes with him while out searching and exploring, and though he was very secretive about the notes, there were other folks who suspected or knew he had them.  At one point, supposedly he was "lured" away from his camp by someone he knew and trusted and while they were away exploring, there enough time to copy the notes.  I've heard a number of different specifics on how it was done - from riding into a nearby town to make copies (I have no clue if quick copy services were even available at that time), to reading the notes into a tape recorder of some kind to just hand copying them.

By the time Bark's relative returned to camp, all was back in it's place and he didn't suspect anything - until of course, eventually rumors started circulating and other copies ended up being seen, etc...  You know how it goes .

The question of course is how close are the notes as we see them today, to the "original" notes which Jim Bark left when he passed away?  There has been at least a couple opportunities to alter those notes - for whatever purposes - before they made it to the "general public" as we see them now.  Are there misdirections?  Are there fabricated facts?  Are there things left out?

I have no idea, but the questions are there - unlike Sims Ely's book where at least we can assume that other than an editor, the words we see are those written or dictated by Ely himself.

Joe or anyone else - please correct anything I may have misrepresented, and feel free to add more to the story if you have some or can.  Gary, if you come to the Rendezvous, make sure to ask that question about the Bark Notes and we'll see if we can get someone like Greg Davis or Joe who has a better memory than I do to tell you what they know.

Paul

[it's primarily because it fits your theory correct?]

Paul,

"I understand why you choose to believe that Julia and Rhiney's first trip was through Hog Canyon, but when you step back and look at why you believe that, it's primarily because it fits your theory correct?  The issue I have is that you can't just pick and choose what parts of something you want to believe just because they match your theory.  Either you believe Sims Ely's book and his word, or you don't - it becomes problematic when parts of his book are used to defend a belief, while other parts are discarded because they don't point in the same direction one wants it to."

I believe I understand your point.  What I tried to do, was provide a few reasons why it fits my theory.  I don't have to accept every word in either man's work as the absolute truth.  What I can do, is read both accounts and find places where they agree, and where other accounts and clues I have found on the ground, seem to support their words.

I like to think that I have done that in a logical manner, without making up my own facts to fit my theories.  No one else needs to follow my theories, or accept them as "fact".  It's true that I am convinced, but it was never Bark's or Ely's words alone that created that conviction.  It was the weight of all the evidence I have gathered, found and read over the last 52 years.

Your vision of that collective accumulation is focused on small snippets of what I have posted and provided to you in private email's.  While you think you have a pretty good grasp on where I am coming from, you have only received a small portion of the evidence that formed my conclusions.

I have stepped back and looked at my conclusions and the evidence that brought me there many, many times.  Unless someone brings something better to the table, I won't be changing my mind anytime soon.  As new evidence has come along, I have adjusted some of those conclusions to include new possibilities.

I have not discarded the old theories, just as I don't believe we should discard Bark or Ely, just because their works may have been "colored" a bit.  There is no positive advantage to that.....IMHO.  Let the evidence you find on your own dictate the road you finally take.  Some of that evidence may very well match up to Bark and Ely, and some of it may not.

That got a bit long, but that's where I am coming from.

Take care,

Joe

[it's primarily because it fits your theory correct?]

Paul,

"I understand why you choose to believe that Julia and Rhiney's first trip was through Hog Canyon, but when you step back and look at why you believe that, it's primarily because it fits your theory correct?  The issue I have is that you can't just pick and choose what parts of something you want to believe just because they match your theory.  Either you believe Sims Ely's book and his word, or you don't - it becomes problematic when parts of his book are used to defend a belief, while other parts are discarded because they don't point in the same direction one wants it to."

I believe I understand your point.  What I tried to do, was provide a few reasons why it fits my theory.  I don't have to accept every word in either man's work as the absolute truth.  What I can do, is read both accounts and find places where they agree, and where other accounts and clues I have found on the ground, seem to support their words.

I like to think that I have done that in a logical manner, without making up my own facts to fit my theories.  No one else needs to follow my theories, or accept them as "fact".  It's true that I am convinced, but it was never Bark's or Ely's words alone that created that conviction.  It was the weight of all the evidence I have gathered, found and read over the last 52 years.

Your vision of that collective accumulation is focused on small snippets of what I have posted and provided to you in private email's.  While you think you have a pretty good grasp on where I am coming from, you have only received a small portion of the evidence that formed my conclusions.

I have stepped back and looked at my conclusions and the evidence that brought me there many, many times.  Unless someone brings something better to the table, I won't be changing my mind anytime soon.  As new evidence has come along, I have adjusted some of those conclusions to include new possibilities.

I have not discarded the old theories, just as I don't believe we should discard Bark or Ely, just because their works may have been "colored" a bit.  There is no positive advantage to that.....IMHO.  Let the evidence you find on your own dictate the road you finally take.  Some of that evidence may very well match up to Bark and Ely, and some of it may not.

That got a bit long, but that's where I am coming from.

Take care,

Joe

All very well stated Joe, and points noted. Your experience and knowlege on this matter is very much respected, I mean that sincerely ; however, you know what they say about that "fresh set of eyes".  
With that said, if I had to make a choise - I would take the path less traveled only because the more traveled route has proven somewhat fruitless thus far. Just sayin    

Jerry

incidently - I found...... nope, nope, that wasn't it.

[it's primarily because it fits your theory correct?]

Paul,

"I understand why you choose to believe that Julia and Rhiney's first trip was through Hog Canyon, but when you step back and look at why you believe that, it's primarily because it fits your theory correct?  The issue I have is that you can't just pick and choose what parts of something you want to believe just because they match your theory.  Either you believe Sims Ely's book and his word, or you don't - it becomes problematic when parts of his book are used to defend a belief, while other parts are discarded because they don't point in the same direction one wants it to."

I believe I understand your point.  What I tried to do, was provide a few reasons why it fits my theory.  I don't have to accept every word in either man's work as the absolute truth.  What I can do, is read both accounts and find places where they agree, and where other accounts and clues I have found on the ground, seem to support their words.

I like to think that I have done that in a logical manner, without making up my own facts to fit my theories.  No one else needs to follow my theories, or accept them as "fact".  It's true that I am convinced, but it was never Bark's or Ely's words alone that created that conviction.  It was the weight of all the evidence I have gathered, found and read over the last 52 years.

Your vision of that collective accumulation is focused on small snippets of what I have posted and provided to you in private email's.  While you think you have a pretty good grasp on where I am coming from, you have only received a small portion of the evidence that formed my conclusions.

I have stepped back and looked at my conclusions and the evidence that brought me there many, many times.  Unless someone brings something better to the table, I won't be changing my mind anytime soon.  As new evidence has come along, I have adjusted some of those conclusions to include new possibilities.

I have not discarded the old theories, just as I don't believe we should discard Bark or Ely, just because their works may have been "colored" a bit.  There is no positive advantage to that.....IMHO.  Let the evidence you find on your own dictate the road you finally take.  Some of that evidence may very well match up to Bark and Ely, and some of it may not.

That got a bit long, but that's where I am coming from.

Take care,

Joe

Thanks for clarifying - I do understand where you're coming from.

[Needle Canyon]

Gollum wrote

Quote from: Oroblanco on Yesterday at 09:34:07 PM
Santa Fe New Mexican, <John> - as much as I hate to use it, and try to avoid it, consider yourself on IGNORE. Good luck in your future endeavors.

Roy A Decker HAHAHA,

Congratulations! You have FINALLY done what every other rational poster at TNet has done; PUT KEMMY ON IGNORE!

Now, whatever you do, don't fall into the trap and peek at his ramblings, or you will get sucked back into his pot smoke induced vortex of ignorint ramblings.

Best-Mike

and Javaone wrote

Finnally! I can't understand why it took you so long Oro

Well first off, no one has ever accused me of being rational, so I don't mind giving a person some time/slack to get to know them and open up.  I know something of what it feels like when you truly believe you have found a famous lost gold mine, a kind of excitement or bubbly exuberance so if someone starts posting on the forum kind of excitedly, in my opinion it is understandable.  However after a full year of trying to get our friend to talk treasure with only the smallest results, along with the hostility he showed even to others when he was really angry with ME for being "too skeptical" for his tastes, that just went over the limit of patience for me.

Now to get back on-topic; why should anyone put so much importance on the first canyon that Julia and Reiney attempted?  They went on to try several others, including from the north side of the mountain range, so clearly the route and/or landmarks they were seeking were NOT something that has to be in Hog canyon. 

If we are to go by "first" then wouldn't the expedition taken after Herman Petrasch had arrived seem to be just as important?  They had contacted him and when he arrived they went out to find the mine. 

quote
"Early in August of 1892, shortly after Herman Petrash’s arrival in Phoenix, Julia Thomas, Rhinehart and Hermann Petrash began to organize their expedition to search for the Lost Dutchman Mine. Julia Thomas had purchased a team, wagon, and camping gear for their expedition into the Superstition Mountains. The group departed Phoenix before sunrise on August 11, 1892, with little fanfare. The party moved slowly along the old Tempe-Lehi Road. They spent their first night at Marysville Crossing. The next morning they turned southeastward toward Superstition Mountain and the desert flatland west of the mountains. The second day of travel eastward across the desert toward the western face of Superstition Mountain proved difficult until they found some wagons tracks. These wagon tracks lead northeast toward Superstition Mountain, but crossing washes became very difficult for their overloaded wagon.
Somewhere along this point the group realized they had to abandon the wagon.
They spent their next night under the cliffs of Superstition Mountain. At sunrise the next morning they were packing up their two horses and decided to walk toward the northwestern end of Superstition Mountain. Julia Thomas was searching for La Sombrero, the pointed peak she said Jacob Waltz had told her about.
The heat and humidity was stifling, but the three adventurers continued walking and leading their pack animals. According to Hermann Petrasch they camped the next evening in Needle Canyon, at least he thought it was. Years later Hermann said they might have camped in East Boulder Canyon on the western side of Black Top Mountain that third night. The next morning they were up at sunrise again and climbed a steep ridge to a pass and walked down into a deep canyon. They could see the pointed peak old Jacob had talked about. It was here they set camp for the next three weeks as they searched the area with their clues." end quoted extract
<extracts from Kollenborn's articles online at
http://www.superstitionmountain.info/chronicles/2008/09_22_08.html
http://www.superstitionmountain.info/chronicles/2008/09_29_08.html>

Wouldn't it make sense that with Hermann along, that Julia and Reiney would have tried to do their best to get the right route in to find the mine?  This is just my opinion but I don't think Hog canyon is that important in the route to the mine, or it seems logical that they would have kept returning to the same canyon instead of trying different ways.
Oroblanco

I know something of what it feels like when you truly believe you have found a famous lost gold mine, a kind of excitement or bubbly exuberance

I really can't see you as "bubbly".  just sayin...

Roy,

"Now to get back on-topic; why should anyone put so much importance on the first canyon that Julia and Reiney attempted?  They went on to try several others, including from the north side of the mountain range, so clearly the route and/or landmarks they were seeking were NOT something that has to be in Hog canyon. 

If we are to go by "first" then wouldn't the expedition taken after Herman Petrasch had arrived seem to be just as important?  They had contacted him and when he arrived they went out to find the mine."

Somewhere between the time Waltz spoke his last words to Julia and Rhiney, they lost the importance of his description of how he was going to show them the trail over the mountain to his mine.  They would not be able to ride in a wagon, which was what they wanted to do.

Once Herman arrived, he took over the search.  Why he did not go back to the beginning, is anyone's guess.  We will never know the answer.  It remains obvious, at least to me, that he was searching for the drawing that ended up in his belonging after his death.

On the other hand, he may very well have found that drawing, which is one answer as to why he ended up searching where he did.  It just seems unlikely that they started out so far west from where they should have entered the mountains.

It's a pick your poison kind of thing.

See post #54 here:
 
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index....c,281441.msg2493270.html#msg2493270

Take care,

Joe

I saw your post earlier, and the beautiful photo of Weaver's Needle; however I still don't think Hog canyon was of extreme importance, rather they were to find a key landmark, and thus tried several ways to get in to find that landmark.  The fact that Hog canyon is the first you come to, may simply be that they chose to try the very first canyon they saw to get to Weaver's Needle, if in fact Weavers Needle is the correct "pointed peak" that Waltz referred to in the first place.  I even wonder about that. As you have said, 'quien sabe'?  

Javaone wrote

I really can't see you as "bubbly".   just sayin

It only takes some gold to get those bubbles perkin', and I would bet that the same could be true for you!   
Roy

Roy,

"I saw your post earlier, and the beautiful photo of Weaver's Needle; however I still don't think Hog canyon was of extreme importance, rather they were to find a key landmark, and thus tried several ways to get in to find that landmark.  The fact that Hog canyon is the first you come to, may simply be that they chose to try the very first canyon they saw to get to Weaver's Needle, if in fact Weavers Needle is the correct "pointed peak" that Waltz referred to in the first place.  I even wonder about that. As you have said, 'quien sabe'?"

 Hog Canyon would be important if Waltz told them to take that first canyon to the top of the ridge and then look for the Needle framed in the saddle, just as he drew it.  The directions might be to go to the canyon directly below the saddle, turn south and take the first canyon/steep ravine coming in on the east side of the canyon.  Go up that canyon and my mine will be at the top.

Not saying that's what anyone said, just saying......what if?  There is a sealed mine at that location.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

Look carefully at the little hand drawn map that Waltz supposedly gave to Rhiney about a month before he died (from Helen Corbin's Book).

Look carefully at the shape of Weaver's Needle. The Needle has very different looks depending on the direction you are viewing it from.

Think they might have been trying to recreate that view of the Needle where they went in?

Best-Miike

Here is an example:

If Jacob Waltz handed you the map (first pic), what view would you want to see of Weaver's Needle would you want to have when you went into the mountains?

Best-Mike

Mike,

No.  Waltz drew that picture from memory and while in the process of dying.

My guess is that it may not be totally accurate, but then again, it might.  I am aware that it does not match exactly, but it's probably close enough to get them to the mine.

Problem is, once they started from the wrong place, they never found the correct view.

It's a theory based on facts and a good deal of circumstantial evidence.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

You may be correct, but I think that even though it was a month before Waltz died, he had seen the same view of the Needle from his mine many times over about a twenty year period.

I think that is why he drew the picture like that. How many times had he looked up in the past and seen that same picture?

Notice on the map there is no indication of a mine. Maybe that is just supposed to show where to enter the mountains. Something like "When you come up the canyon and over the first pass, the Needle should look like this." If I'm not mistaken, that last picture was taken from the area of Superstition Mountain.

Best-Mike

joe .. mike .. please no more today .. i can not take it any more .. your killing me ...lol


please i will pay you to stop  my guts are ready to brust ......lol

 your trying to make logic wisdom from a scribles of a dieing old man in his 80's...you guys know better then this ...