HEALTH CARE REFORM PASSED today (we'll have to wait to learn what this means)

Saturday night the bill passed, but there has been so many iterations to the bill, that i guess we have to wait to see what is in this bill by the next morning... (I stopped counting after the 4th re-write).   Perhaps a single payer system? Perhaps a public option?...   With me being as skeptical as all get out... I doubt either one of those two made it in.   I'm guessing that the insurance companies somehow made an anchor for themselves in the system, to where they would still make enormous gains, and that the 'new' option is just as expensive as the private option.   Let's hope not. Please God, let this not be the case.   Lets hope the bill of rights finally makes it's way back to the original creators of the bill of rights... back to the Americans, not just the Japanese and others the we wrote for them.  (a bit of history is needed here to understand what I'm talking about).

But in all, lets hope that we, employed or unemployed, can walk into a hospital, and not have to worry if we will lose our homes because we went there.

God bless everyone.  Lets hope this is a good thing for everyone.  I hope and pray!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

edit: It just passed the house. ..  false alarm.

When it does pass it will reduce the class divisions in the USA.
No longer will the rich  and middle class snobs patronise those that can't afford
private health care , something I've noticed within this forum.

When it does pass it will reduce the class divisions in the USA.
No longer will the rich snobs patronise those that can't afford private health care,
something I've noticed within this forum.

Im far from rich and have my own private healthcare insurance, a great plan in fact which I pay for out of pocket.   Many nations were without class divisions Russia, Cuba, China....  I'd rather stay middle class myself.  If people want welfare medical care (which is basically what it is) more power to them but I'd rather have the option to buy mine from a private company.

Im far from rich and have my own private healthcare insurance, a great plan in fact which I pay for out of pocket.   Many nations were without class divisions Russia, Cuba, China....  I'd rather stay middle class myself.  If people want welfare medical care (which is basically what it is) more power to them but I'd rather have the option to buy mine from a private company.

And then you would buy it at a very high fee. Think of it.  You have the executives of the health care company that you are currently paying into, they are making millions.   And then if you lost your job, or lost your ability to pay for your health covreage and then you got sick, you'd be screwed.    SO, let hope you dont' lose your ability to get money, AND get sick...   Because if you got sick then, you would probably die.    Because it's a money making thing. Period.

Lets all hope that everyone in this country can be healthy if they get sick, despite the status of their income.   Isnt that what being American was about when we founded this country?

  Isnt that what being American was about when we founded this country?  You live in it... Lets make it happen!!!!!!

We once fought the red coats and we won.  We WON.   Let us all believe in the constitution that we fought for. PLEASE.

Its not passed, Senate debate will start now.
Many are already saying thats more or less a formality though.
Pretty sneaky them dems, to force the vote on a SAT night, of all times.
I don't trust them people as far as I can spit - And when they tell me somethings good for me, I'll just assume precisely the opposite.

When it does pass it will reduce the class divisions in the USA.
No longer will the rich snobs patronise those that can't afford private health care,
something I've noticed within this forum.

Im far from rich and have my own private healthcare insurance, a great plan in fact which I pay for out of pocket.   Many nations were without class divisions Russia, Cuba, China....  I'd rather stay middle class myself.  If people want welfare medical care (which is basically what it is) more power to them but I'd rather have the option to buy mine from a private company.

This is exactly what I mean by an arrogant patronising attitude by the silver spoon and blue blood brigade.

i would prefer it that way pay from your own pocket but i cant afford to but i still do they charge me a certain fee by my income being a out of work house builder that aint jack right now so i pay a small fee and wait just as long as the people that pay for thier healthcare from thier own pockets do and what sucks is when you have a 10 oclock appointment the doc doesnt get there untill 1130 be cause he is doind rounds at the local hospital so much for a timed schedule hmm russia cuba china yall those places suck you cant talk about your government like we do here in the good ole usa i like classes to i am lower middle  class and when people think they are too good to talk the obnociuos redkneck in me comes and and i make them talk to me sometimes it aint nice and sometimes they invite me to fish thier ponds and hunt the woods out back of  grandmas farm house they rented out to other upitty people that think rual life is all a country and western song  a country boy can survive IS my family theme song we grow what we want buy what we need and paybills just like everyone else enough said for the bleeding heart sissys that think every kids should get a spot on the team hell no make them earn it my kids do and both of thier teams came in first and second in all city leages and went to the state finals and they are all from check to check familys and god i love the the redkneck lowwer middle class folk  cause when we all die we are going to one of two places heaven or detroit praise god and pass the ammo AMEN

I guess the FEMA Concentration Camps will come in handy after all .

http://republicans.waysandmeans.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=153583

Wonder what the odds in Vegas are that the Senate will kill the bill or just let it die in commitee?
I'd put a dollar or two on that scenario.
(I do NOT advocate gambling) 

Scott

I have spent most of my life being taken care of by the military healthcare system, which is pretty awesome. My wife was having to pay nearly a third of her income as a teacher to carry herself, me and my daugther on her insurance.

The public option will not take away your healthcare choices, if you decide you are too good for what everyone else gets and want to pay for it.

Some of us would like to have one less thing to worry about, thanks.

MikeofAustin,

What you are talking about is EXACTLY what is happening every single day of every single year - right now.

I had a stroke - do you have any idea what insurance for me costs?  Not one penny - because nobody will give me private insurance.

If your family is really middle class, you make about 3 times what the average american makes right now, around $100,000 to $125,000 a year.
Upper middle-class is $126,000 to about $225,000.

I could afford to pay my own insurance on that.  Piece of cake.

Unfortunately, most of the country, especially right now, doesn't make that much.  Hopefully, you have stashed away some cash (not just what your company can invest for you, because they can go away at any time), and don't lose your job.

I'm sure you have read on other threads - my sister is a nurse, got breast cancer, and her insurance company dropped her and she lost her job.
(legally).  New Mexico has NO health coverage unless you are a migrant worker or an American Indian.  She went through every dime she had put aside, lost her home - and now has metastatic cancer that she will die from, eventually.  She was middle class.  It all took just a tad over a year and a half.

B

I'll bet once millions of people start getting health care, and the hospitals start raking in the cash, those opposed will quietly go away...just like they always do..with a slight whimper, a yelp, and their tails dragging between their hind legs.  

People seem to get the Constitution and Founding Fathers mixed up.  As I recall they never promised us money, free healthcare, free food.  Can anyone please tell me where this comes into play?  Life, Liberty and the Persuit of Happiness does not mean free material things.

When it does pass it will reduce the class divisions in the USA.
No longer will the rich snobs patronise those that can't afford private health care,
something I've noticed within this forum.

Im far from rich and have my own private healthcare insurance, a great plan in fact which I pay for out of pocket.   Many nations were without class divisions Russia, Cuba, China....  I'd rather stay middle class myself.  If people want welfare medical care (which is basically what it is) more power to them but I'd rather have the option to buy mine from a private company.

This is exactly what I mean by an arrogant patronising attitude by the silver spoon and blue blood brigade.

Modern America sure loves handouts.  So now a lower middle class guy like myself not only gets to pay for my private health care but also your health care?  Wow that sounds fair and American comrade.

The point is, everyone should have access to health care. It is getting so serious that some people have started joining the military just so their family will all be covered. And lets face it, the military health care system is a good example of socialized medicine. I have never had a complaint with my active duty healthcare. Now, the VA, that is another story entirely.

The point is, everyone should have access to health care. It is getting so serious that some people have started joining the military just so their family will all be covered. And lets face it, the military health care system is a good example of socialized medicine. I have never had a complaint with my active duty healthcare. Now, the VA, that is another story entirely.

To me it seems more like an employer health plan.

The point is, everyone should have access to health care. It is getting so serious that some people have started joining the military just so their family will all be covered. And lets face it, the military health care system is a good example of socialized medicine. I have never had a complaint with my active duty healthcare. Now, the VA, that is another story entirely.

To me it seems more like an employer health plan.

I second that. That is exactly what I was thinking.

Tell me what employer has a health plan that covers you and all your dependents, with no copay, no out of pocket expense, for just about every single type of appointment, surgery, etc? The only thing it does not cover for dependents is dental.

The constitution does not mention free food, or free healthcare - you are right.

What it does say is:


We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America

Yep, that covers it. Those Founder's were some seriously intelligent, enlightened guys.

The point is, everyone should have access to health care. It is getting so serious that some people have started joining the military just so their family will all be covered. And lets face it, the military health care system is a good example of socialized medicine. I have never had a complaint with my active duty healthcare. Now, the VA, that is another story entirely.

Everyone DOES have access to healthcare. I'm lower middle class (less than 30k annually for my wife, child and self). I cannot get health insurance because I am diabetic and have heart problems.

There are ALREADY programs in place that take up the slack when you are down on your luck. I visit the doctor several times each year. If I miss a quarterly visit, the doctor can drop me as a patient. The program is called Hippa. My visits are paid on a "pro-rata" basis, according to my income. When I was unemployed 8 years ago, my visits were $10.00 - now they are $30. No, it isn't the Mayo Clinic, but it is health care.

People are so damned stupid they want the best without paying for it. I had surgery last year, and did not have insurance. Did you know that the hospitals have programs, already funded by Uncle Sam, that allow them to "write off" charges for those who cannot (not will not) pay. You just have to ask about them. If they don't meet their allowed deductions, they lose them. The nurse I spoke to said they actually have problems using up their deductions. My catscan was free. My ultrasounds were free. My surgeon - after finding out I had no insurance - performed both surgeries on an "outpatient" basis. He also explained that by asking for his assistance, he was able to write off most of his costs through government programs already in place. He charged me a total of $250 out of pocket --- 125 per surgery. He said he actually made more by being able to write the surgery off.

I have had stress tests done . . . and the surgeon wrote them off. That's 3 grand he could write off immediately for each one.

Think outside the box. Nothing is written in stone . . . YET.

NOBODY! Again, NOBODY is denied health care in this country. Even illegal aliens. I see many of them at the clinic I go to, they're illegal and do not try to pretend otherwise because they are safe there. They get healthcare the same as I do.

The whole thing about people being denied or unable to get healthcare is a freaking sham!! !! !!  WAKE UP!! !! !!

My friend was dropped from her insurance because she has asthma and takes birth control pills, both of which that insurance considered to be "unnecessary medications."

Smee,

Not everyone in your position has access to anything HIPPAA is involved in - like almost all programs, there is a point where you make too much money to qualify, but not enough to actually be able to pay your bills.

All HIPPA is, is a set of regulations on what you can do, or cannot do, and for a little equality.  It is nothing else.

All the laws that have been made concerning COBRA availability, etc., when you lose your job is ridiculous - mine was $429.00 per month - couldn't afford that, at the time.

47 million people aren't too stupid - just because someone finds a way to get what they need, doesn't mean it is available to everyone.

With all our money and resources - please tell me why our health care is 37th in the world?  That is a disgrace for our great country.

More children die in this country than in some 3rd world countries - how is that possible?

We used to be proud of our ability to feed nations, now we cannot keep our children alive better than some backwards countries?

I know part of the arguement is paying for abortions - so -don't, but, lets not pay for 80 year olds sexual pleasures, either.

That's the kind of stuff that can be worked out.

B

We also happen to have one of the highest infant mortality rates in the Western world too, due to the unavailability of prenatal care to the uninsured.

Libralabsoldier,


You are soooooooo right.

B

I have worked in healthcare for a long time. A lot of doctors come to the military system because they can actually practice medicine without having to worry about insurance companies. They can order any test they want, perform exploratory surgeries, write prescriptions...you know, practice medicine? Many willingly take a pay cut so they can actually do what their oath tells them to.

Healthcare is a right. And a higher tax on the right wingers is justified to pay for it. They made billions on the sales of everything and anything military. Now it's their turn to hand over some of that cash for the betterment of the nation.

The constitution does not mention free food, or free healthcare - you are right.

What it does say is:


We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America

Im sure "welfare" was more along the lines of security not free healthcare especially since even back then people payed for healthcare.

Healthcare is a right. And a higher tax on the right wingers is justified to pay for it. They made billions on the sales of everything and anything military. Now it's their turn to hand over some of that cash for the betterment of the nation.

Oh well in that case I can use a new house, shelter should be a right too.... oh and how about some free meal vouchers, food should be a right too.  Marxist..

We also happen to have one of the highest infant mortality rates in the Western world too, due to the unavailability of prenatal care to the uninsured.

Thats B.S. I think this is mainly due to parents who don't give a sh*t about their kids in the first place, you know the ones who leave them on the corner to buy crack, the ones who have so many kids to so many men they forget their names.  Of course its going to be higher than most of the western world, it seems we have many more lazy bums than most nations, just look at our cities.  I know for a fact free medical care and very cheap plans are avalable for children through the gov. so don't use this as an excuse for nation wide free healthcare for all.

Be careful what you post, I posted something (very innocent) that was mistaken for a political comment and received a personal email admonishing me.  I had to go back and re read my original posting several times to determine that I was misinterpreted.  

  The term was in reference to a "what is it", someone thought it was a left piece of something....I replied no it is definitely Right....I was chastised...I was totally shocked and had to defend my self as to referring to the directional and not the political persuasion of the object...   People are just crazy that someone may be offended by something as inane as that....so just be careful.....especially on these hot topics.

Ps.   I forgot to mention, that I respect this topic and that everyone has an opinion to the nature of what is happening in our country.   I just posted the prior posting as a warning that I felt I was dealt with unfairly for something not intended as read... I do agree with a lot of the posts in this thread, by the way.

Be careful what you post, I posted something (very innocent) that was mistaken for a political comment and received a personal email admonishing me.  I had to go back and re read my original posting several times to determine that I was misinterpreted.  

  The term was in reference to a "what is it", someone thought it was a left piece of something....I replied no it is definitely Right....I was chastised...I was totally shocked and had to defend my self as to referring to the directional and not the political persuasion of the object...   People are just crazy that someone may be offended by something as inane as that....so just be careful.....especially on these hot topics.

You are wrong and appear to be the victim of bullying.
You should be allowed to speak your mind and to overcome the ridiculous gagging
"political correctness" habit and to ignore those that are still trapped in its restraints.

We also happen to have one of the highest infant mortality rates in the Western world too, due to the unavailability of prenatal care to the uninsured.

Thats B.S. I think this is mainly due to parents who don't give a sh*t about their kids in the first place, you know the ones who leave them on the corner to buy crack, the ones who have so many kids to so many men they forget their names.  Of course its going to be higher than most of the western world, it seems we have many more lazy bums than most nations, just look at our cities.  I know for a fact free medical care and very cheap plans are avalable for children through the gov. so don't use this as an excuse for nation wide free healthcare for all.

Also, the higher infant mortality rate comes from people using fertility drugs and having doctor induced labors and Cesarean sections for convenience. Which is what all crack users do....right? Or perhaps there are doctors that are convincing women to have unnecessary C sections because they get more money from the insurance companies, and fertility drugs cause multiple births which result in the deaths of some of the infants born. Yep, all of those are exactly what poor inner city people do when they want babies.

Or perhaps maybe, it is rich suburbanites who want children, and want them badly enough to risk the lives of a few just to get a perfect one?

I agree with Libralab on this matter and that Jimmy(PA) is out of touch
with middle class behavior. Much of the behavior of this snobbish, selfish
group is tainted with evil.
They will tell any lie to preserve their status.

Wow, it is rare that anyone agrees with me around here.

Something that nobody mentioned is what is gonna happen to the current health care when millions of more people are suddenly gonna have insurance. Are the number/sizes of hospitals, nurses, doctors gonna be able to handle this increased numbers of patients? If you think it is hard to get seen by a doctor now, what is it gonna be like after this takes effect.

How about how many jobs this is going to create?

Got the Ft Hood thread closed with your girlish rants & threats libtardsoldier, looking to do the same here ?

Can you have a grown up conversation without insults and personal attacks?

And for the record:

Libra (born in October)
Lab (I am a medical laboratory tech, with a speciality in blood banking and transfusion services)
Soldier (US Army active duty for ten years, reserves for four so far)

Keep up with the insults, and maybe you can get this one locked.

I believe...............

That Health care is one of country's biggest businesses and it has a huge place in our future economic recovery and expansion. So any new patients will add fuel to the debate about securing America's future with high paying jobs...etc.

Oh no, I think it was more you inviting me to OK for a man to man confrontation with Capt America himself, and calling me an assclown that got it locked.
I know its hard, try to conduct yourself as a mature adult, and we can agree to disagree.
I'm not going to change your mind, or even try - You are not going to change mine.
Alls we can do is express our views [hopefully without throwing hissy fits].

the reason active duty health care is so good in the military is they need you "fit and healthy" for battle -- VA is for when your "retired" ie no longer useful to them -- thus you are now a "fiscal drag" on the system * all cost & no benefit to the system--so die already will you? -- in the new wave type style of "medical care" it will be fix the young tax producing workers and screw the old non working retired ones --since we already got all we can get from them --now their costing us cash --so die already you old farts will ya.

Fair enough. E shake on it?

And seriously, I cannot see how this cannot create jobs. It is hard to find work for lab techs right now, because most hospitals have a hiring freeze out here, even the one on the Army base.

More doctors, more nurses, more everything.

Private insurance companies do not care about patients, they care about their stock holders and profits. Medicine should not only be available to the highest bidder.

If you claim human life is sacred, why would you deny everyone access to health care. It just does not follow logic.

OK let me get this straight, I believe in healthcare reform, I believe in controlled prices and I believe people should not be drop but I am totally against free healthcare and all other forms of Marxism.

I agree with Libralab on this matter and that Jimmy(PA) is out of touch
with middle class behavior. Much of the behavior of this snobbish, selfish
group is tainted with evil.
They will tell any lie to preserve their status.

LOL did you seriously just say I'm out of touch with middle class behavior?  I wasn't aware you knew much of my background but anyways the middle class America I grew up in did not take handouts though yours may have been different.  In fact for the past 100 years and until recently these so called "rights" have been considered Marxist not American so please don't try to pass them off as such.

I look at it this way - This government had racked up record deficits, had already spent record amounts of $$, much of it unaccounted for.
Unemployment is at an all time high, confidence is going down across the board ,,, And these are the folks I'm supposed to trust to tell me whats good for me ?

This is just another way to "spread it around", as promised before the election.
If I was a lazy hobo collecting welfare, yeah I'd be all for the handouts.
I'm on the other side, I've been out on my own since I was 17, and everything I have is due solely to my own efforts, and I don't appreciate a bunch of malcontent shirkers being piled on my back, at the expense of my children.

Can anyone tell me whats wrong with medicaid ?
As it stands, taxpayers have in fact been paying through the nose for insurance for the poor, for decades.
Free cell phones, free bills paid, free health care, free bailouts ,,, I'm guessing free ipods for the underprivileged is next on the agenda, much to Apples delight.

How about how many jobs this is going to create?

How about how many small businesses are going to go under because of having to buy insurance for their employees?

How about the family who has to choose between paying their rent or paying the government mandated insurance?

The whole idea is touted as helping poor people, and it doesn't. My employer may not be able to keep all of the current employees because of the cost of health insurance. Raises are damned sure out of the question. Now, as a small business with less than 10 employees, if we lay of 1, that is more than 10% unemployment of all those working here. If that happens across the board, because let's be realistic, the economy is in the tank with unemployment already at 10.2+% (not including those "underemployed" and the folks who have just given up or have run out of UI benefits - which, even according to NPR and NBC, is actually closer to 17 or 18%) we're in for a hell of a bumpy ride.

Fair enough. E shake on it?

And seriously, I cannot see how this cannot create jobs. It is hard to find work for lab techs right now, because most hospitals have a hiring freeze out here, even the one on the Army base.

More doctors, more nurses, more everything.

Private insurance companies do not care about patients, they care about their stock holders and profits. Medicine should not only be available to the highest bidder.

If you claim human life is sacred, why would you deny everyone access to health care. It just does not follow logic.

The job freeze, just like the limitations on the number of persons who are allowed to practice (yes there are limitations imposed at the university level which keep the number of qualified physicians artificially low), is for the purpose of raising rates.

Hell, doctors used to work for whatever they could get. They lived lives not all that dissimilar to that of their patients. Today, too many of them feel that you should bow to them because they took time out of their busy recreational / social schedule to look at your unimportant problem.

By "this government has already racked up record deficits" - I'm curious what you meant?

Also, have you read the bill they passed - completely?  I haven't - I've read a few parts, but that's all.  That leaves most of us in the "pure speculation" category, when it comes to who will pay what and when.

I think its time to read what they passed - understand it, and then wait to see what the senate does - since bills don't pass nor get signed until both houses pass it.  And, usually, even if they both pass it, it will still go through amendments and committee before it ever reaches a consensus bill that the president may or may not sign.

But, I will ask - just how long can we afford to have huge hospital and doctor bills that just get written off in bankruptcy courts?  Or how long can we afford to have (let) people die just because they cannot afford to see a doctor?  Because, there are people who die simply because they cannot afford medications and doctors, or refuse to lose everything - their savings accounts, their homes, everything - because they don't want to leave their loved ones with thousands of dollars worth of medical bills?

B

Wow this is some topic Some I will have to agree with and some.And I would have to take a course in Goose Stepping with the others. Dreaming that this thing would work is slightly above crazy. This whole thing is a power play to put the anointed one in the limelight. Remember the rule "If it looks to good to be true" its bull$ht just my opinion.

By "this government has already racked up record deficits" - I'm curious what you meant?

Hope this helps

Obama team makes it official: Budget deficit hits record. By a lot.
03:54 PM


The Obama administration has released new deficit numbers, and they are not pretty.

The deficit for fiscal year 2009, which ended Sept. 30, came in at a record $1.42 trillion, more than triple the record set just last year.

In addition, future deficits are currently projected to total $9.1 trillion in the coming decade.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2009/10/620000005/1

Also, have you read the bill they passed - completely?  I haven't - I've read a few parts, but that's all.  That leaves most of us in the "pure speculation" category, when it comes to who will pay what and when.

I don't think anyone has read that tangled web of legalistic mumbo jumbo - There were many well founded complaints about expecting people to digest such a verbose work on such short notice, but nonetheless Peloski & Co forced an impromptu Saturday night vote, which passed by only 5 votes.
You can't very well say "well you didn't read it, so you don't know if its good or not" - I don't think they'd need to resort to shenanigans like that if there wasn't much in it that was highly objectionable to a majority of folks.

I think its time to read what they passed - understand it, and then wait to see what the senate does - since bills don't pass nor get signed until both houses pass it.  And, usually, even if they both pass it, it will still go through amendments and committee before it ever reaches a consensus bill that the president may or may not sign.

I understand it still has to go through the senate, I believe I pointed that out yesterday in this thread.
So yeah, I'll wait - What am I going to do, stand on my rooftop and shout "Social engineering is not for me !!" ?

But, I will ask - just how long can we afford to have huge hospital and doctor bills that just get written off in bankruptcy courts?  Or how long can we afford to have (let) people die just because they cannot afford to see a doctor?  Because, there are people who die simply because they cannot afford medications and doctors, or refuse to lose everything - their savings accounts, their homes, everything - because they don't want to leave their loved ones with thousands of dollars worth of medical bills?

B

Oh yeah, break out the violin for accompaniment why don't ya ?
Are you saying under Obama, we are being led to a golden pasture, where everyone is happy & healthy ?
Listen, I am not against helping people that legitimately need help to survive - Old folks, children and the disabled.
Thats pretty much it, and that has been done for decades now.
I am not about to weep for someone who can't get up off their lazy ass and go to work, who have no talents or trades that they can make a living on.
Half of them keep spitting out babies to get a fatter welfare check, thats the problem - And the more that you give them, the more that you indulge them ,,, They get used to handouts, and won't want anything else.
We are really dealing with a mass of people with the mentality of children.
No personal responsibility, to accountability, I guess thats old fashioned, and a thing of the past.
You want it, stick out your hand and yell loud enough, and someone will give it to you - Entitlement !
They more they get, the more they want ,,,, And the current administration is just the one to give it to them, with the intentions of creating a huge voting bloc, dependent on liberals maintaining power.
They vote them in, they get the handouts ,,, All at the expense of the [rapidly shrinking] working class.

But, I will ask - just how long can we afford to have huge hospital and doctor bills that just get written off in bankruptcy courts?  Or how long can we afford to have (let) people die just because they cannot afford to see a doctor?  Because, there are people who die simply because they cannot afford medications and doctors, or refuse to lose everything - their savings accounts, their homes, everything - because they don't want to leave their loved ones with thousands of dollars worth of medical bills?

B

How long can we afford to keep our country in debt. Look at our failing dollar. That is only gonna get worse.

The current cap on what the federal government can borrow is $12.1trillion. The government said this week it could hit this ceiling by December. In 2009, the federal budget deficit reached $1.4 trillion. Earlier this year the house approved an increase in the debt ceiling of $925 billion which would bring the total to just over $13 trillion.I sure wish I could do that. Max out my credit cards and then increase my credit limit so that I could buy more crap and go deeper in debt and never worry about paying it back. AMERICA-OF THE DEADBEATS, FOR THE DEADBEATS, BY THE DEADBEATS, AT THIS RATE WILL PERISH FROM THIS EARTH

I remember not to long ago, the Bush administration spent more money then he should have and the democommies had a field day with it. But when Barrack Hussein Obama spends too much everybody is a-ok with it. What a bunch of crap. When are people gonna wake up and realize we are screwed by our debt. All Obama wants to do is spend spend spend.

Has anybody else noticed that the spell checker still says that Obama is not spelled correctly? I take this as a sign that he should not be president.

Ditto.

This is very interesting...

Another one...

Looks like a one term slider to me.

Looks like a one term slider to me.

 

The fight starts today. Henry Quayr, Ruben Hinojosa, and Sol Ortiz will never be elected again to the US House of Repesentives again. So was the promise for voting for this piece of rubbish, so will be the action of all freedom loving South Texans, regardless of economic status. The House ignored their constituents and retaliation will be in the manner provided by the Constitution of the United States of America. Libra, if you wish to know what the founding father Madison and Jefferson intended by the "promote the General Welfare" bit of the Preamble, read the Federalist Papers 41. I think you will understand that the Founding Fathers notions of what this phases meaning is happens to be quite differnet than yours. Guess what else, I am a Vet, so I have a very good Idea of what their health care is(quite good) and what it becomes in the VA(quite bad). I am also pratice Physical Therapy in the public school system in Texas. Guess what??? No teacher I know, and I know quite a few, pays ONE THIRD of their income to pay for Medical Insurance, even if they include a spouse and two dependents. If ya doubt it I can put you in touch with several teachers who are in just that situation. I do not understand why your child is not covered under your Military insurance. With how you heap accolades upon the Military system I would think you would insist that she be under Military healthcare? Just a askin.
     Do any out there who support this warping of the American ideal understand how deeply in debt our country is? Do you realize that the National Debt ceiling had to be raised, yet again. This makes 3 times just this year. This year 30 cents of every dollar paid in Tax's will be spent just to service the PRINCIPLE on our national debt. Next year, yes next year it rises to 70 cents, again, just to service the PRINCIPLE!!! Where does the money for this come from. Debit neutral??? Nothing has ever came out of the CBO that did not double in price within two years!!!! Some of the programs have cost the taxpayer over 100 times the amount estimated by the CBO!! This and still not only do you support this travesty of a program but are beating each other about the head and neck to be the first aboard!! My lord, Amtrack, SS, Medicade, Medicare. None of them are self sufficient. They all cost the taxpayer money. We as a country cannot afford this program. It is destined to break the back of the payer, IE: the American taxpayer. How substandard will your medical care be then? That is when you will wind up in wards, and that is exactly where this will lead. Those who doubt this must have failed math in 3rd grade and above or are willingfully ignoring the obvious statistics. Logic dictates the truth. Only those who just wish to argue or have a political agenda deny those facts. Pay for everyone??? HOW!!! WERE BROKE DUMMY!!!

Yes sir, just trust the dems & obama they will take care of ya for sure. Don't won't to hear ya crying next year about how crappy the plan was ya wanted.

The fight starts today. Henry Quayr, Ruben Hinojosa, and Sol Ortiz will never be elected again to the US House of Repesentives again. So was the promise for voting for this piece of rubbish, so will be the action of all freedom loving South Texans, regardless of economic status. The House ignored their constituents and retaliation will be in the manner provided by the Constitution of the United States of America. Libra, if you wish to know what the founding father Madison and Jefferson intended by the "promote the General Welfare" bit of the Preamble, read the Federalist Papers 41. I think you will understand that the Founding Fathers notions of what this phases meaning is happens to be quite differnet than yours. Guess what else, I am a Vet, so I have a very good Idea of what their health care is(quite good) and what it becomes in the VA(quite bad). I am also pratice Physical Therapy in the public school system in Texas. Guess what??? No teacher I know, and I know quite a few, pays ONE THIRD of their income to pay for Medical Insurance, even if they include a spouse and two dependents. If ya doubt it I can put you in touch with several teachers who are in just that situation. I do not understand why your child is not covered under your Military insurance. With how you heap accolades upon the Military system I would think you would insist that she be under Military healthcare? Just a askin.
     Do any out there who support this warping of the American ideal understand how deeply in debt our country is? Do you realize that the National Debt ceiling had to be raised, yet again. This makes 3 times just this year. This year 30 cents of every dollar paid in Tax's will be spent just to service the PRINCIPLE on our national debt. Next year, yes next year it rises to 70 cents, again, just to service the PRINCIPLE!!! Where does the money for this come from. Debit neutral??? Nothing has ever came out of the CBO that did not double in price within two years!!!! Some of the programs have cost the taxpayer over 100 times the amount estimated by the CBO!! This and still not only do you support this travesty of a program but are beating each other about the head and neck to be the first aboard!! My lord, Amtrack, SS, Medicade, Medicare. None of them are self sufficient. They all cost the taxpayer money. We as a country cannot afford this program. It is destined to break the back of the payer, IE: the American taxpayer. How substandard will your medical care be then? That is when you will wind up in wards, and that is exactly where this will lead. Those who doubt this must have failed math in 3rd grade and above or are willingfully ignoring the obvious statistics. Logic dictates the truth. Only those who just wish to argue or have a political agenda deny those facts. Pay for everyone??? HOW!!! WERE BROKE DUMMY!!!

Don't worry, i'm from the government and here to help. 

Jim, 25yrs+ before i retired with the gov. Know what ya mean.  Alway here to help.

now the only upper class and rich people that left that dont have to use the the peoples health care will be the politicians that passed it.  They have their own fully funded plans on the taxpayers dime.  So tell me...

If the 2000 page trash bill that passed the house is such a good thing, then tell me why the ones that voted for it have not read it and will not by law obligate themselves and their families to use it?  This trash care bill will kill more than it helps.  Sorry but its not health care reform, its health care ownership by the govt.  Pelosi herself said it would cover 96% of the country.  Doesnt sound like choice to me.  Maybe it should be called the George Soros Youth in Asia Healthcare Death Bill. 

If the govt cant run things like Social Security, Medicare, GM (yes govt owned), the auto rebate program, and the list goes on and on, what makes anyone think that they can run a program like universal healthcare?  Well, its not law yet so there is still a chance.

I am no longer active duty, and cannot afford the premiums that Tricare wants for Reservists. My wifes health insurance was almost 400 dollars a month, which was nearly equal to her retirment (which took a massive beating and more or less evaporated one year after she started it.) She was a first year teacher. She is still unable to find work, except long term sub jobs. So much for teachers always being able to find work.

As far as my other healthcare issues....I spent all of my savings to get custody of my daughter. My ex has never paid a dime of child support, and is on SSI. Why is she on SSI? Because she is addicted to pain killers and surgery. She has had almost 40 surgeries since I have known her, most of which paid for by the Army.

Technically, I have five years of free healthcare from the VA since getting back from Iraq. The two times I went to see them, I was basically given the run around, told three different things from three different people, and then was told it would probably be three or four months before I could be seen, since "I didnt look that bad". Evidently the VA lets secretaries make health decisions.

As far as the other points that keep getting brought up over and over and over again here.....I cannot explain all the workings of economics. It is not my field. I also just cannot understand how people are saying that providing health care for everyone will result in the deaths of people. Private payer healthcare kills plenty of people every year through medical mistakes, does that mean we should outlaw doctors?

remember doctors kill more folks per year thru "mistakes" than folks do with guns on purpose --the reason VA care sucks is simple --they are "thru" with you , you no longer "work" for the govt and thus are of "no current benefit or use to them" --ie your costing the "system" money --with them getting nothing from you.( other than what they already got out of you anyways)

the same thing goes for "retiree's" --the govt simply does not have the means to properly support --all the baby boomers that are due to retire shortly --so let the market tank to keep folks from "retiring"--now that the markets crashed most can not "afford" to retire anymore --thus they will work until the day they die --feeding the "system" tax money from their "jobs" payroll taxes as they do so -- with more and more folks going to dependant upon govt healthcare systems (the boomer gen) and the govt want to spend "less" money on it -- then simple fact is less money will be spent per person -- which means less or "rationed" health care under the govt plan --healthy workers that are still of  tax earning benefiet to the govt --fix em -- the old and wore out --retiree's that are a "fiscal" drag on the system --let em die.---simple math in action ===young workers are a + old retirees are a - money wize to the govt.

I cant understand how or why people insist on living off the govt and making poor me excuses.  Its not the govts job to feed anyone, to buy anyones car, to pay anyones bills, to buy anyones food, healthcare or lots of other stuff.  The govt wants sheeple, not responsible citizens.  How in the world did our forefathers live without the govt?  They didnt, if they didnt work they didnt eat.  They were better off for it to.  Simply put this trashcare bill is simply another govt welfare program.  And they will take as much as they can from everyone but themselves to pay for it.  If universal trashcare hasnt worked in any other county that has it, and our govt to include some of its sheeple are ignoring it for thier own selfish wants, not to mention desire for power, that isnt saying much for them.  Can anyone name any govt program that has worked or is being run efficiently?  If they want it so bad, I would rather see them move to a county like the UK or Canada and try it out for themselves sometime.  OH Wait!!  that means they would have to put action behind their words.  Well, we cant have that, so they will just force everyone to do what they want so the lazy (as a whole, yes there are very few exceptions) dont have to work and be responsible for themselves.  


"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.  Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!   (Emma Lazarus)"   ................................................. .............and the govt will make dependent welfare bums out of you so you can keep electing us to ensure your next welfare handout.

        
Not sorry to say it, but I have no respect at all for anyone living off the govt or expecting the govt to take care of them or for those in DC that insist they do it.  

I am not asking the government to take care of me. I am simply tired of having to fight tooth and nail for benefits that were promised to me when I joined the military. That goes for my education benefits, as well as my medical benefits.

The government has been doing wrong by all of us veterans. I am lucky in that I am not too broken to work. I have seen guys and girls at the hospital missing limbs, and are seriously damaged. They should not have to fight this battle. We should not have to enlist the aid of lawyers in order to get a disability rating that reflects reality. We should not have to deal with the VA recouping funds that they were not entitled to or responsible for (as was my case). In short, the VA needs to give us what we were promised when we took our oath to join the military.

I am not asking the government to take care of me. I am simply tired of having to fight tooth and nail for benefits that were promised to me when I joined the military. That goes for my education benefits, as well as my medical benefits.

The government has been doing wrong by all of us veterans. I am lucky in that I am not too broken to work. I have seen guys and girls at the hospital missing limbs, and are seriously damaged. They should not have to fight this battle. We should not have to enlist the aid of lawyers in order to get a disability rating that reflects reality. We should not have to deal with the VA recouping funds that they were not entitled to or responsible for (as was my case). In short, the VA needs to give us what we were promised when we took our oath to join the military.

Libra, I don't think Prospect was speaking about you, but the huge number of dependents that the Government has created by providing huge incentives to take them. Hey, my wife is a SLP in the schools, and got blessed out by a parent at a ARD because she would not qualify her kiddo for Speech. The reason why? The lady had two other kiddos who were qualified for related services(speech) and that enables her to get a disability check each month on each child. She wanted another check!!! The child did not need speech but mom wanted her qualified. I have a million other stories about Parents and Professionals abusing the system.(Yeah, PT"s, OT, and SLP's who are on contract work and paid by the kiddo. I have seen so many kids qualified who did not meet criteria by these healthcare providers is is sickening.) . The main  problem with Universal healthcare is that we cannot afford it. Simple as that. We are BROKE!! Yes there are other reasons, like the lying that politicians always do to try and pass something, like saying this is budget neutral, but we do not have the money period, and I think you know this is going to cost us tons of money we do not have. It is time for a FEDERAL BALANCED BUDGET ADMEMDMENT!!!! We need to run our country like a home or business and not spend what we do not have. If we balanced the budget today we would still have to pay off all the Debt we have racked up!!! Don't like Obama?? Well he may blowing our tax dollars out his tush like a Confederate solider who ate too much green corn, but ole Georgie Porgie before him racked up most of debt we would have to pay off. Don't like Bill Clinton? hey he was a perv, but a perv with a BALANCED BUDGET!! He also quit letting welfare mothers rack up a new check for each additional kiddo. Time to kick every congressman who voted for this travesty OUT, OUT, OUT!!

Libra, I appreciate your service, your defense of you oath and I hope you receive all that was promised to you by our military. Believe me I know what a hassle the VA can be!!! I am not a Republican here, but I am a Conservative. This insult by the Democrat party has made me want to change my affiliation from Democrat to Independent.  I can't bring myself to register as a Republican, but I am so disgusted with the Democrats that I gotta get away from them, and at this point fight them. Later, gotta work.

Hey Libra, I understand your complaints in more ways than you know, I am on your side.  My complaint is with the people that demand the govt take care of them and meet their every need, simply put I think its disgraceful.  I did not think I was implying or certainly did not indent to put you or imply you were in this mindset.  I have read enouph of your posts to know better.  If you got that impression (and after re-reading my post I can understand if you did), please accept my apologies. 

Libralabsoldier,

If your ex is on SSI - and you are not getting money from them for your child(ren), then she is lying to the government.

Take it from someone who used to help people in that situation (for a living).

Your ex needs to claim her children (if they are under 18), and they will automatically send you the appropriate amount (a percentage of her payments).  It will not come out of her check, she will still get the same amount of money, but they will send the children's "support" payment directly to the custodial parent - if that is you - you will get it.

If you need help, send me a pm.

B

just the begining

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/jail_health_insurance/2009/11/09/283539.html

Does this really sound like reform?

Oh, my kid gets a whopping 51 dollars a month from my ex wifes SSI. However, state regs here state that SSI CANNOT be used as child support. Her child support payments are supposed to be 150 a month. Never mind that as a specialist in the Army I was giving her 600 bucks a month. Not to mention she divorced me and married a captain....

Honestly, I wish she would have a "medical accident" and I could be shut of her forever. Such a miracle would be enough to send me back to church and make a believer out of me again, at least that there is justice in the universe.

As far as VA, and my issues with them? The two hardest things to swallow is that they "recouped" IE STOLE nearly 16 grand from me that was a bonus I got for joining the Reserves after Active Duty. Had I not gone in the Reserves, I would not be entitled to that money. Why is the VA recouping it? It was not a medical discharge lump sum, which I can see is justified.

Also, it is taking them months to settle up on GI Bill claims. God forbid that you may not be able to enroll in classes four months in advance, and they keep springing things on me, not paying for some classes, and trying to charge me for others. This is stress I do not need right now.

Not sorry to say it, but I have no respect at all for anyone living off the govt or expecting the govt to take care of them or for those in DC that insist they do it.  

I work, I pay my taxes, but my employers have never had to provide me with medical care, and it would be 1/2 of my paycheck to buy it flat out. Does asking the government to step in and run the show so I can buy my healthcare from the feds mean i'm now "living off the government"?

I think you need to stop assuming that everyone is just asking for a handout.

[/quote]
 Don't like Bill Clinton? hey he was a perv, but a perv with a BALANCED BUDGET!!
[/quote]

Time and time again, anyone reading the mainstream news or reading articles on the Internet will read the claim that President Clinton not only balanced the budget, but had a surplus. This is then used as an argument to further highlight the fiscal irresponsibility of the federal government under the Bush administration.

The claim is generally made that Clinton had a surplus of $69 billion in FY1998, $123 billion in FY1999 and $230 billion in FY2000 . In that same link, Clinton claimed that the national debt had been reduced by $360 billion in the last three years, presumably FY1998, FY1999, and FY2000--though, interestingly, $360 billion is not the sum of the alleged surpluses of the three years in question ($69B + $123B + $230B = $422B, not $360B).

While not defending the increase of the federal debt under President Bush, it's curious to see Clinton's record promoted as having generated a surplus. It never happened. There was never a surplus and the facts support that position. In fact, far from a $360 billion reduction in the national debt in FY1998-FY2000, there was an increase of $281 billion.

Verifying this is as simple as accessing the U.S. Treasury website where the national debt is updated daily and a history of the debt since January 1993 can be obtained. Considering the government's fiscal year ends on the last day of September each year, and considering Clinton's budget proposal in 1993 took effect in October 1993 and concluded September 1994 (FY1994), here's the national debt at the end of each year of Clinton Budgets:

Fiscal
Year   Year
Ending   National Debt   Deficit
FY1993    09/30/1993    $4.411488 trillion   
FY1994    09/30/1994    $4.692749 trillion    $281.26 billion
FY1995    09/29/1995    $4.973982 trillion    $281.23 billion
FY1996    09/30/1996    $5.224810 trillion    $250.83 billion
FY1997    09/30/1997    $5.413146 trillion    $188.34 billion
FY1998    09/30/1998    $5.526193 trillion    $113.05 billion
FY1999    09/30/1999    $5.656270 trillion    $130.08 billion
FY2000    09/29/2000    $5.674178 trillion    $17.91 billion
FY2001    09/28/2001    $5.807463 trillion    $133.29 billion


As can clearly be seen, in no year did the national debt go down, nor did Clinton leave President Bush with a surplus that Bush subsequently turned into a deficit. Yes, the deficit was almost eliminated in FY2000 (ending in September 2000 with a deficit of "only" $17.9 billion), but it never reached zero--let alone a positive surplus number. And Clinton's last budget proposal for FY2001, which ended in September 2001, generated a $133.29 billion deficit. The growing deficits started in the year of the last Clinton budget, not in the first year of the Bush administration.

Keep in mind that President Bush took office in January 2001 and his first budget took effect October 1, 2001 for the year ending September 30, 2002 (FY2002). So the $133.29 billion deficit in the year ending September 2001 was Clinton's. Granted, Bush supported a tax refund where taxpayers received checks in 2001. However, the total amount refunded to taxpayers was only $38 billion . So even if we assume that $38 billion of the FY2001 deficit was due to Bush's tax refunds which were not part of Clinton's last budget, that still means that Clinton's last budget produced a deficit of 133.29 - 38 = $95.29 billion.

Clinton clearly did not achieve a surplus and he didn't leave President Bush with a surplus.

I work, I pay my taxes, but my employers have never had to provide me with medical care, and it would be 1/2 of my paycheck to buy it flat out. Does asking the government to step in and run the show so I can buy my healthcare from the feds mean i'm now "living off the government"?

I think you need to stop assuming that everyone is just asking for a handout.

Example 1:

1. Joe took the job, knowing that health insurance was not part of the package when he accepted the job.
2. Joe does not earn enough to pay for insurance out of pocket.
3. Joe wants the Government to step in and take the money from his employer to provide his employer couldn't afford to begin with.

Since Joe is wanting something he cannot afford, to be paid by other people who work for a living as well as by those who are wealthy and may not work, Joe is still asking for a handout.

Example 2:

If Joe approached his employer and demanded that he provide Joe with healthcare insurance "or else", even though Joe originally agreed to work there without insurance, we would call it "extortion" which is a criminal offense.

If Joe approached his neighbor and demanded that the neighbor provide Joe with healthcare insurance "or else", that would also be called "extortion" punishable by time in the gray bar hotel.

However, if Joe gets the government to demand that Joe's employer pay for his healthcare "or else", and gets the government to approach his neighbor and demand that the neighbor provide Joe with healthcare insurance "or else", then it's ok?

What is the difference? Joe used the government MOB to extort the money for him. Now Joe gets a little bit of the monies collected from his employer and neighbor for healthcare (until he is no longer of any use to the state) and the state gets money from the employer and the neighbor while keeping a bit for Joe's "protection".

Problem is, there isn't that kind of money - otherwise the employer would have provided insurance - and they're going to destroy business and industry in this country. Along with that, bankrupting the few folks who still have enough backbone to be honest and pay their taxes, and pretty soon the state will have to use Joe as a slave to pay them back for all the protection they provided.

When there's no more money to take, they're gonna have to "turn Joe out". Is that what you want?

Prospector40,

Do you own a car?  What happens if you are driving without insurance and you get caught?  So, you are ok with having to buy insurance to drive, but not to insure your kids?  Or your spouse - or yourself?

Just asking.

Don't read someone else's opinion - read the darn bill yourself.  Forget Pelosi, forget everyone else, It takes 200+ people in the house to pass it, and a majority in the Senate.  What Pelosi wants doesn't matter.  Do your own homework.  

Here, in case you can't seem to find it:

http://docs.house.gov/rules/health/111_ahcaa.pdf


B



B

Example 1:

1. Joe took the job, knowing that health insurance was not part of the package when he accepted the job.
2. Joe does not earn enough to pay for insurance out of pocket.
3. Joe wants the Government to step in and take the money from his employer to provide his employer couldn't afford to begin with.

Since Joe is wanting something he cannot afford, to be paid by other people who work for a living as well as by those who are wealthy and may not work, Joe is still asking for a handout.

Example 2:

If Joe approached his employer and demanded that he provide Joe with healthcare insurance "or else", even though Joe originally agreed to work there without insurance, we would call it "extortion" which is a criminal offense.

If Joe approached his neighbor and demanded that the neighbor provide Joe with healthcare insurance "or else", that would also be called "extortion" punishable by time in the gray bar hotel.

However, if Joe gets the government to demand that Joe's employer pay for his healthcare "or else", and gets the government to approach his neighbor and demand that the neighbor provide Joe with healthcare insurance "or else", then it's ok?

What is the difference? Joe used the government MOB to extort the money for him. Now Joe gets a little bit of the monies collected from his employer and neighbor for healthcare (until he is no longer of any use to the state) and the state gets money from the employer and the neighbor while keeping a bit for Joe's "protection".

Problem is, there isn't that kind of money - otherwise the employer would have provided insurance - and they're going to destroy business and industry in this country. Along with that, bankrupting the few folks who still have enough backbone to be honest and pay their taxes, and pretty soon the state will have to use Joe as a slave to pay them back for all the protection they provided.

When there's no more money to take, they're gonna have to "turn Joe out". Is that what you want?

No the money doesn't come from the employer, it comes from my taxes and the money I pay into the government for a government healthcare system. Frankly *I* am going to be the one losing money, i'm healthy and i'm 36 so I stand to lose the money i'll be paying in for other older people who will need more medical care.

I want catastrophic coverage, not super-awesome "pay for everything" coverage and even that most basic healthcare is 1/2 my pay.

This has, and should have nothing to do with where I work or who I work for, or frankly if I work at all. People should not be afraid to lose their jobs because that would mean losing their healthcare. If i'm making 50$ an hour fixing people's computers as a hobby job and i'm paying my taxes and i'm paying the government for federal healthcare how exactly is "my employer", "losing" there?

Example 1:

1. Joe took the job, knowing that health insurance was not part of the package when he accepted the job.
2. Joe does not earn enough to pay for insurance out of pocket.
3. Joe wants the Government to step in and take the money from his employer to provide his employer couldn't afford to begin with.

Since Joe is wanting something he cannot afford, to be paid by other people who work for a living as well as by those who are wealthy and may not work, Joe is still asking for a handout.

Example 2:

If Joe approached his employer and demanded that he provide Joe with healthcare insurance "or else", even though Joe originally agreed to work there without insurance, we would call it "extortion" which is a criminal offense.

If Joe approached his neighbor and demanded that the neighbor provide Joe with healthcare insurance "or else", that would also be called "extortion" punishable by time in the gray bar hotel.

However, if Joe gets the government to demand that Joe's employer pay for his healthcare "or else", and gets the government to approach his neighbor and demand that the neighbor provide Joe with healthcare insurance "or else", then it's ok?

What is the difference? Joe used the government MOB to extort the money for him. Now Joe gets a little bit of the monies collected from his employer and neighbor for healthcare (until he is no longer of any use to the state) and the state gets money from the employer and the neighbor while keeping a bit for Joe's "protection".

Problem is, there isn't that kind of money - otherwise the employer would have provided insurance - and they're going to destroy business and industry in this country. Along with that, bankrupting the few folks who still have enough backbone to be honest and pay their taxes, and pretty soon the state will have to use Joe as a slave to pay them back for all the protection they provided.

When there's no more money to take, they're gonna have to "turn Joe out". Is that what you want?

No the money doesn't come from the employer, it comes from my taxes and the money I pay into the government for a government healthcare system. Frankly *I* am going to be the one losing money, i'm healthy and i'm 36 so I stand to lose the money i'll be paying in for other older people who will need more medical care.

So, your not willing to spend a portion of your paycheck to provide yourself coverage, but you are willing to spend a portion of your paycheck to cover yourself, and others ?

the vast bulk of employeers for many years have understood the value of under paying their employees * less than a true "living wage" --enough that if you worked full time , you can pay your bills and save some money for old age. (they keep the money by not paying you "true value" for your labors)

ball and chain type slavery was on its way out --the "cheap labor" fix was in due to lots of cheap labor coming in due to the irish potato famine --now  it was cheaper to hire "day labor" for a buck a day --than to own a slave --- since with "day labor" you worked em sun up tro sundown --if they were ill you did not have to care for em --or cloth em or feed em or shelter em --all that was "their problem" --all you did was "under pay em" wages that were less than the cost of daily living expenses --and as a employeer you were ahead of the game cost wize. -- the employeers know folks gotta work to make money --so they just sit back and sweat em to death --working them to death , with the "help" in debt all the time since their wages and  basic living expenses do not match one another.

this still occurs in today markets they just simplely do not offer decent wages or benefits for the lobs you do/--thus "under paying" you

Not making enough on the job hmmm ... Across the board, decreed raises next on lib agenda ?

Hello, Hello??? Any one home??? WE ARE BROKE BROKE BROKE!! Our Government is borrowing money from the developing country of China to pay for this!!! Generation after future generation will be obligated to pay for this, and that is only if this does not break our economy. Is there no shame? Do your kids, grandkids, nephews and nieces matter so little. I get it, health care is outrageously priced and we need to bring it under control. Ok, let's do it. Tort reform, uniform pricing, stiff prison terms for price gouging. This bill addresses none of that, or if it does it is buried some where in the 2000 + pages in the bill. We must only do things like those suggested here because we do not have to money to do more. I actually give a crap about my family's youngest, but what will you tell them when they are paying 80 cents or more out of every dollar to service the debt. What will you tell your granchildren when 65% of their paycheck is taken in tax's? Again we are  BROKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GET IT!!! I doubt it.
























  

thats why mimimum wage laws were enacted * -- to insure that employeers didn't screw over their help-- holding them in econonmic "bondage" for life -- old coal towns and saw mill towns --often paid in "company cash" on the books --you were forced to live in company housing which was billed "on the books" --you had to buy stuff at the "company store" --often at highly inflated prices "on the books"-- any visiting the company doctor was also billed "on the books"-- the coal company tokens some of us collect are often the only form of money these poor folks had -- the song "16 tons" reflects how employeers would  exploit the coal mine workers --with out any "cash money" to leave with -- how could one leave and go to some other city and look for work --no money for food --no money to pay for travelling -- no rent money for while you looked for work --you were "trapped" fiscally and had to "stay put" as a fiscal slave.

the federal income tax finally forced the end of the "company" controlled town "on the books" system --since income taxes had to be paid --in cash money --the govt forced the coal mone companys to pay their workers in cash after a certain date ( only because the US govt wanted their taxes not because they wanted to "help" the workers in any way)--the coal companies just cleared their books paying off all debts the day before the deadline ,in company script which they then later on refused to redeem into cash --thus the folks with money on the coal company  books got stuck with "company cash" that was useful only at the company stores and their new real money "cash payments" had to go for taxes

sadly the minimum wage bill -- has not been "updated" to insure that folks who are decent hard working folks get a "fair shake" for their labor.

unfair and exploitive labor practices are nothing new sadly.

So, your not willing to spend a portion of your paycheck to provide yourself coverage, but you are willing to spend a portion of your paycheck to cover yourself, and others ?

You're totally missing the point.

If you have a group with a huge number of participants you can get things cheaper, influence prices, drive better care, etc. You also pool your resources. Just look at the VA, they are the single biggest group in those respects.

I'm certain that even at it's highest possible about a government healthcare plan will not cost me 1/2 my paycheck, there is simply no comparison to paying directly for a private healthcare plan.

Our Government is borrowing money from the developing country of China to pay for this!!!

Yep, and what do you prose the feds do about that?

We're the problem, US consumers want everything cheap and we don't care where it gets produced.

What will you tell your granchildren when 65% of their paycheck is taken in tax's?

I'm sure i'll tell them something like: "Gather round kids and let me tell you about the time when people were selfish and tens of millions of people had no healthcare. When you had to worry about a boom and busy economy, when there were laws against gay people getting married, and when a cult called "Christianity" was all the rage".

MikeofAustin,

What you are talking about is EXACTLY what is happening every single day of every single year - right now.

I had a stroke - do you have any idea what insurance for me costs?  Not one penny - because nobody will give me private insurance.

If your family is really middle class, you make about 3 times what the average american makes right now, around $100,000 to $125,000 a year.
Upper middle-class is $126,000 to about $225,000.

I could afford to pay my own insurance on that.  Piece of cake.

Unfortunately, most of the country, especially right now, doesn't make that much.  Hopefully, you have stashed away some cash (not just what your company can invest for you, because they can go away at any time), and don't lose your job.

I'm sure you have read on other threads - my sister is a nurse, got breast cancer, and her insurance company dropped her and she lost her job.
(legally).  New Mexico has NO health coverage unless you are a migrant worker or an American Indian.  She went through every dime she had put aside, lost her home - and now has metastatic cancer that she will die from, eventually.  She was middle class.  It all took just a tad over a year and a half.

B

I've actually been unemployeed since Feb of this year.  No insurance either.  AND, if you've been up to speed on some of my other posts, I've been dealing with this really screwy thing call anxiety attacks.   It's really screwed up.  I'll learned that if I go out into the world, shopping, etc... they will happen at random, and I have this awkward moment where I have to cup my head in my hands to keep from passing out.  it's really scary.  I hate it.    It's far from cancer, and I feel for you.   

But, lets hope that we can one day remove the profit incentive for insurance/pharma that do everything thing they can to keep people from getting well.  If  you think about it, it would be a good thing for them if you paid many thousands of dollars to them for insurance, but when you get sick, just let you die.  This fact has been proven many times.   Pure profit off of death.

When it does pass it will reduce the class divisions in the USA.
No longer will the rich snobs patronise those that can't afford private health care,
something I've noticed within this forum.

Im far from rich and have my own private healthcare insurance, a great plan in fact which I pay for out of pocket.   Many nations were without class divisions Russia, Cuba, China....  I'd rather stay middle class myself.  If people want welfare medical care (which is basically what it is) more power to them but I'd rather have the option to buy mine from a private company.

This is exactly what I mean by an arrogant patronising attitude by the silver spoon and blue blood brigade.

Modern America sure loves handouts.  So now a lower middle class guy like myself not only gets to pay for my private health care but also your health care?  Wow that sounds fair and American comrade.

This is NOT a handout...  it is supposed to be a 'reform'... but thanks to everyone on congress, it probably wont' be.   I have a right to live.  BUT, lobbyists are making sure that they still get a piece of the pie....   Hence "millions of dollars lining the pockets of CEO's" hoping that they can find a way out of paying for our healthcare, and that we will all die after giving them thousands of dollars.

Something that nobody mentioned is what is gonna happen to the current health care when millions of more people are suddenly gonna have insurance. Are the number/sizes of hospitals, nurses, doctors gonna be able to handle this increased numbers of patients? If you think it is hard to get seen by a doctor now, what is it gonna be like after this takes effect.

That is a flawed argument.  People that don't have insurance are forced to skip a doctors visit until it is 'too late'...   Then when they finally go, the problem has gone so far out of control, it requires more that 'preventive maintenance', and the bill is so high, they can't pay it, so it goes straight to the taxpayers.   

If people got preventive health care, it would be a much lower burden. 

So there.. that is another argument.   

I cant understand how or why people insist on living off the govt and making poor me excuses.  Its not the govts job to feed anyone, to buy anyones car, to pay anyones bills, to buy anyones food, healthcare or lots of other stuff.  The govt wants sheeple, not responsible citizens.  How in the world did our forefathers live without the govt?  They didnt, if they didnt work they didnt eat.  They were better off for it to.  Simply put this trashcare bill is simply another govt welfare program.  And they will take as much as they can from everyone but themselves to pay for it.  If universal trashcare hasnt worked in any other county that has it, and our govt to include some of its sheeple are ignoring it for thier own selfish wants, not to mention desire for power, that isnt saying much for them.  Can anyone name any govt program that has worked or is being run efficiently?  If they want it so bad, I would rather see them move to a county like the UK or Canada and try it out for themselves sometime.  OH Wait!!  that means they would have to put action behind their words.  Well, we cant have that, so they will just force everyone to do what they want so the lazy (as a whole, yes there are very few exceptions) dont have to work and be responsible for themselves.  


"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.  Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!   (Emma Lazarus)"   ................................................. .............and the govt will make dependent welfare bums out of you so you can keep electing us to ensure your next welfare handout.

        
Not sorry to say it, but I have no respect at all for anyone living off the govt or expecting the govt to take care of them or for those in DC that insist they do it.  

We'll I'm glad you have a job to pay for things in life.... oh and yes, Poor me!... I lost my job because the high money rollers got congress (through corruption) to deregulate the banking industry.  That is one of the BIG reasons why we have the fiasco on our hands today.   If I had a job, I'd be o.k.   But I don't.   So I blame it on Washington hill for taking those brides.   So, yes... poor me for being the victim of corporate greed and government corruption... The same government that was SUPPOSED to be "FOR THE PEOPLE", not "FOR THE BIG MONEY ROLLERS". 

I work, I pay my taxes, but my employers have never had to provide me with medical care, and it would be 1/2 of my paycheck to buy it flat out. Does asking the government to step in and run the show so I can buy my healthcare from the feds mean i'm now "living off the government"?

I think you need to stop assuming that everyone is just asking for a handout.

Example 1:

1. Joe took the job, knowing that health insurance was not part of the package when he accepted the job.
2. Joe does not earn enough to pay for insurance out of pocket.
3. Joe wants the Government to step in and take the money from his employer to provide his employer couldn't afford to begin with.

Since Joe is wanting something he cannot afford, to be paid by other people who work for a living as well as by those who are wealthy and may not work, Joe is still asking for a handout.

Example 2:

If Joe approached his employer and demanded that he provide Joe with healthcare insurance "or else", even though Joe originally agreed to work there without insurance, we would call it "extortion" which is a criminal offense.

If Joe approached his neighbor and demanded that the neighbor provide Joe with healthcare insurance "or else", that would also be called "extortion" punishable by time in the gray bar hotel.

However, if Joe gets the government to demand that Joe's employer pay for his healthcare "or else", and gets the government to approach his neighbor and demand that the neighbor provide Joe with healthcare insurance "or else", then it's ok?

What is the difference? Joe used the government MOB to extort the money for him. Now Joe gets a little bit of the monies collected from his employer and neighbor for healthcare (until he is no longer of any use to the state) and the state gets money from the employer and the neighbor while keeping a bit for Joe's "protection".

Problem is, there isn't that kind of money - otherwise the employer would have provided insurance - and they're going to destroy business and industry in this country. Along with that, bankrupting the few folks who still have enough backbone to be honest and pay their taxes, and pretty soon the state will have to use Joe as a slave to pay them back for all the protection they provided.

When there's no more money to take, they're gonna have to "turn Joe out". Is that what you want?

If the healthcare industry had the 'reform' it needed, the costs associated with provided insurance would be a drop in the hate.  People dont' get that.

For one, Go google "Single payer system"... It'll blow your mind.!!!  That's 1/3 off the top right there.!!!  (I'll leave you with that... there are others, but that's a good start).

Hello, Hello??? Any one home??? WE ARE BROKE BROKE BROKE!! Our Government is borrowing money from the developing country of China to pay for this!!! Generation after future generation will be obligated to pay for this, and that is only if this does not break our economy. Is there no shame? Do your kids, grandkids, nephews and nieces matter so little. I get it, health care is outrageously priced and we need to bring it under control. Ok, let's do it. Tort reform, uniform pricing, stiff prison terms for price gouging. This bill addresses none of that, or if it does it is buried some where in the 2000 + pages in the bill. We must only do things like those suggested here because we do not have to money to do more. I actually give a crap about my family's youngest, but what will you tell them when they are paying 80 cents or more out of every dollar to service the debt. What will you tell your granchildren when 65% of their paycheck is taken in tax's? Again we are  BROKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GET IT!!! I doubt it.

I really like what you said.  really.  But, there are sooo many costs right now that our government could be cutting.  Unfortunitly, the one cost we can't cut is the interest that we must pay from borrowing all this money, from being so 'spendy' in the first place.   This will surely damn our childrens children...   But, lets pick the best ones to keep, and cut the other crap that we DONT need...

I was a big favor of the "Trickly UP effect" that never happened.   You see, when the Govment, bailed out the banks for bad loans, I thougth it would make a lot more sense to spend money refinancing the loans of certian individuals so they wouldn't default... and hence, keep the bank from having those bad loans....   Plus, if people have money, they spend....  Albeith on foreign crap... but that's another topic.  (thanks bill clinton for that screw up).

I cant understand how or why people insist on living off the govt and making poor me excuses.  Its not the govts job to feed anyone, to buy anyones car, to pay anyones bills, to buy anyones food, healthcare or lots of other stuff.  The govt wants sheeple, not responsible citizens.  How in the world did our forefathers live without the govt?  They didnt, if they didnt work they didnt eat.  They were better off for it to.  Simply put this trashcare bill is simply another govt welfare program.  And they will take as much as they can from everyone but themselves to pay for it.  If universal trashcare hasnt worked in any other county that has it, and our govt to include some of its sheeple are ignoring it for thier own selfish wants, not to mention desire for power, that isnt saying much for them.  Can anyone name any govt program that has worked or is being run efficiently?  If they want it so bad, I would rather see them move to a county like the UK or Canada and try it out for themselves sometime.  OH Wait!!  that means they would have to put action behind their words.  Well, we cant have that, so they will just force everyone to do what they want so the lazy (as a whole, yes there are very few exceptions) dont have to work and be responsible for themselves.  


"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.  Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!   (Emma Lazarus)"   ................................................. .............and the govt will make dependent welfare bums out of you so you can keep electing us to ensure your next welfare handout.

        
Not sorry to say it, but I have no respect at all for anyone living off the govt or expecting the govt to take care of them or for those in DC that insist they do it.  

We'll I'm glad you have a job to pay for things in life.... oh and yes, Poor me!... I lost my job because the high money rollers got congress (through corruption) to deregulate the banking industry.  That is one of the BIG reasons why we have the fiasco on our hands today.   If I had a job, I'd be o.k.   But I don't.   So I blame it on Washington hill for taking those brides.   So, yes... poor me for being the victim of corporate greed and government corruption... The same government that was SUPPOSED to be "FOR THE PEOPLE", not "FOR THE BIG MONEY ROLLERS". 

But the great thing about America is everyone has the chance no matter how slim it is to be a J.P. Morgan and i'd rather keep it that way.  It seems you have little trust in the Gov. so why would you trust them running healthcare?  Since when is destroying any private industry in the freeworld and allowing a gov. takeover a good thing.  Regulate it? Sure...Take it over?  Noway.  That goes against everything American IMO.

You know, after reading all these posts, I go back to our holey doctrine that was once established from our founding fathers... and I say this.... it's shiat.  it's Shiat because everyone walks all over it.  Not us, the people, but the people that are supposed to keep it intact.    Ever little bit of bending the rules has been done, every re-write of it has been done... To me, it's just crap now.. because you can't stand on the street corner and express you rights without being hauled off to jail... what the hell has this country become???  Can you imagine going back in time to tell our founding fathers what the constitution will turn out to be???  They would be in awe!!!  Perhaps they would have a re-writen the second ammendment to say something like, "Not to be infringed"...

Oh, wait...... darn... never mind 

 (you see my point?)

So, your not willing to spend a portion of your paycheck to provide yourself coverage, but you are willing to spend a portion of your paycheck to cover yourself, and others ?

You're totally missing the point.

If you have a group with a huge number of participants you can get things cheaper, influence prices, drive better care, etc. You also pool your resources. Just look at the VA, they are the single biggest group in those respects.

I'm certain that even at it's highest possible about a government healthcare plan will not cost me 1/2 my paycheck, there is simply no comparison to paying directly for a private healthcare plan.

Glad you know how much its going to cost you ,,, Probably the only person in the USA who does.
Something tells me that when they pass legislation to tax every breath, you'll be all for that too.

So, your not willing to spend a portion of your paycheck to provide yourself coverage, but you are willing to spend a portion of your paycheck to cover yourself, and others ?

You're totally missing the point.

If you have a group with a huge number of participants you can get things cheaper, influence prices, drive better care, etc. You also pool your resources. Just look at the VA, they are the single biggest group in those respects.

I'm certain that even at it's highest possible about a government healthcare plan will not cost me 1/2 my paycheck, there is simply no comparison to paying directly for a private healthcare plan.

Our Government is borrowing money from the developing country of China to pay for this!!!

Yep, and what do you prose the feds do about that?

We're the problem, US consumers want everything cheap and we don't care where it gets produced.

What will you tell your granchildren when 65% of their paycheck is taken in tax's?

I'm sure i'll tell them something like: "Gather round kids and let me tell you about the time when people were selfish and tens of millions of people had no healthcare. When you had to worry about a boom and busy economy, when there were laws against gay people getting married, and when a cult called "Christianity" was all the rage".

Lasi, I am sorry to hold this up as an example, but I guess it is either remain mute on the subject or point out the relevance of what you have said. So without futher Ado:

#1: You feel that what the American people buy is the problem with the US Government spending more than it makes??? Nonsensical.

#2: Take a look at what you are going to tell your grandkids when they are losing 65% or more of their income to Tax's. This is what you would say while these kiddos at this point would be scrounging for food.  If you were my Grandpa and said something like that while my family, you included, was starving I would never speak to you again. I will not even descend here into the political part of what is selfish and not. I will just say that if you really feel this would be and apropriate thing to say, and " I am sorry for my little part of letting our society descend to this point" does not come to mind, then you have no conscience.

But the great thing about America is everyone has the chance no matter how slim it is to be a J.P. Morgan and i'd rather keep it that way.  It seems you have little trust in the Gov. so why would you trust them running healthcare?  Since when is destroying any private industry in the freeworld and allowing a gov. takeover a good thing.  Regulate it? Sure...Take it over?  Noway.  That goes against everything American IMO.

You're looking at the issue through a very ethnocentric point of view. You're preaching what you know about and what you have dealt with and ignoring the possibility that it might have been wrong the whole time.

Lasi, I am sorry to hold this up as an example, but I guess it is either remain mute on the subject or point out the relevance of what you have said. So without futher Ado:

#1: You feel that what the American people buy is the problem with the US Government spending more than it makes??? Nonsensical.

#2: Take a look at what you are going to tell your grandkids when they are losing 65% or more of their income to Tax's. This is what you would say while these kiddos at this point would be scrounging for food.  If you were my Grandpa and said something like that while my family, you included, was starving I would never speak to you again. I will not even descend here into the political part of what is selfish and not. I will just say that if you really feel this would be and apropriate thing to say, and " I am sorry for my little part of letting our society descend to this point" does not come to mind, then you have no conscience.

#1 No, I am saying what the American people buy is why China is so incredibly powerful right now.

#2 I disagree with your saying they will be "losing" their income. You have a concept that taxes are just money thrown into a big black hole and that you get nothing back from that "loss". I on the other hand see such things as investments that the voters much care for to get a return on. (What is Social Security after all?)

You also make the assumption that people will continue the same materialistic wasteful spending they do now and not tighten their belts. At the same time if the government took 65% of my pay in taxes and I got healthcare I would still be coming out ahead compared to the options I have on the table now.

Stop thinking that your way is the only way.

Xray,

"decreed raises next"?  Ah, have you heard of the minimum wage law?  States have them too.  Its not next, its old.  The minimum wage in South Dakota is $7.55 an hour, starting in June of this year - minimum wage WAS $6.65 (still higher than the fed)  Isn't that a decreed raise?  That's old, old, old.

B

But the great thing about America is everyone has the chance no matter how slim it is to be a J.P. Morgan and i'd rather keep it that way.  It seems you have little trust in the Gov. so why would you trust them running healthcare?  Since when is destroying any private industry in the freeworld and allowing a gov. takeover a good thing.  Regulate it? Sure...Take it over?  Noway.  That goes against everything American IMO.

You're looking at the issue through a very ethnocentric point of view. You're preaching what you know about and what you have dealt with and ignoring the possibility that it might have been wrong the whole time.

You seem to be under the impression that America is socialist.  What in our history has made you come to this conclusion?   Im looking at this issue through an American point of view, the way in which in which it should be viewed, afterall this is America.   Im tired of this "Europe knows best" attitude in todays society but I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.

You are looking at it from an American view?  I think everyone else is too - you don't get to decide what the american view is - you get to decide what YOUR view is.   Other Americans have other views (on this and everything else, of course).

The opposite of your example of "Europe knows best" - is "just because Europe does it, does not mean it is wrong - or socialist).

Our forefathers expected the government to look out for the welfare of all Americans.  It didn't say "except if Europe does it".


B

You seem to be under the impression that America is socialist.  What in our history has made you come to this conclusion?   Im looking at this issue through an American point of view, the way in which in which it should be viewed, afterall this is America.   Im tired of this "Europe knows best" attitude in todays society but I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.

I don't see "capitalism" or "materialism" written anywhere in the Constitution, do you?

Xray,

"decreed raises next"?  Ah, have you heard of the minimum wage law?  States have them too.  Its not next, its old.  The minimum wage in South Dakota is $7.55 an hour, starting in June of this year - minimum wage WAS $6.65 (still higher than the fed)  Isn't that a decreed raise?  That's old, old, old.

B

I said "across the board decreed raises"
If you're going to directly quote me, try not to deliberately do it out of context in order to make me appear dense.
Yes ma'am, I've heard of minimum wage, thank you very much ,,, Though I've had no direct experience with it since I was 16 or so.

So, your not willing to spend a portion of your paycheck to provide yourself coverage, but you are willing to spend a portion of your paycheck to cover yourself, and others ?

You're totally missing the point.

If you have a group with a huge number of participants you can get things cheaper, influence prices, drive better care, etc. You also pool your resources. Just look at the VA, they are the single biggest group in those respects.

I'm certain that even at it's highest possible about a government healthcare plan will not cost me 1/2 my paycheck, there is simply no comparison to paying directly for a private healthcare plan.

Our Government is borrowing money from the developing country of China to pay for this!!!

Yep, and what do you prose the feds do about that?

We're the problem, US consumers want everything cheap and we don't care where it gets produced.

What will you tell your granchildren when 65% of their paycheck is taken in tax's?

I'm sure i'll tell them something like: "Gather round kids and let me tell you about the time when people were selfish and tens of millions of people had no healthcare. When you had to worry about a boom and busy economy, when there were laws against gay people getting married, and when a cult called "Christianity" was all the rage".

No Lasi, your response was to My saying that our country does not have enough money and that to fund this healthcare debacle we are borrowing from China. Your response clearly states that "We're the problem, us consumers wanting everything cheap and we don't care where it gets produced".  You are wrong. This may be a problem, but it is not the reason the Government is spending more Tax money than it takes in. Your response does not make any sense.

But the great thing about America is everyone has the chance no matter how slim it is to be a J.P. Morgan and i'd rather keep it that way.  It seems you have little trust in the Gov. so why would you trust them running healthcare?  Since when is destroying any private industry in the freeworld and allowing a gov. takeover a good thing.  Regulate it? Sure...Take it over?  Noway.  That goes against everything American IMO.

You're looking at the issue through a very ethnocentric point of view. You're preaching what you know about and what you have dealt with and ignoring the possibility that it might have been wrong the whole time.

Lasi, I am sorry to hold this up as an example, but I guess it is either remain mute on the subject or point out the relevance of what you have said. So without futher Ado:

#1: You feel that what the American people buy is the problem with the US Government spending more than it makes??? Nonsensical.

#2: Take a look at what you are going to tell your grandkids when they are losing 65% or more of their income to Tax's. This is what you would say while these kiddos at this point would be scrounging for food.  If you were my Grandpa and said something like that while my family, you included, was starving I would never speak to you again. I will not even descend here into the political part of what is selfish and not. I will just say that if you really feel this would be and appropriate thing to say, and " I am sorry for my little part of letting our society descend to this point" does not come to mind, then you have no conscience.

#1 No, I am saying what the American people buy is why China is so incredibly powerful right now.

#2 I disagree with your saying they will be "losing" their income. You have a concept that taxes are just money thrown into a big black hole and that you get nothing back from that "loss". I on the other hand see such things as investments that the voters much care for to get a return on. (What is Social Security after all?)

You also make the assumption that people will continue the same materialistic wasteful spending they do now and not tighten their belts. At the same time if the government took 65% of my pay in taxes and I got healthcare I would still be coming out ahead compared to the options I have on the table now.

Stop thinking that your way is the only way.

Social Security, with all the money that has been put into the system over the years, should be quite solvent. The reality is that it is already broke. The only reason it is still functioning is because the current tax payers pay for it. What happened to the money that all those previous taxpayers put in??? Oh, you know, but to admit it is to admit that your politicians are corrupt and Government should not be trusted with anything of value, let alone our health care. It is a black hole that you refuse to see and want to ensure we are all sucked into. Now how is it that you are going to operate on 35% of your check you receive now?? Whooo boy you must make a lot more than me because that would make my Mortage go kabloooy my car would be taken by the finance company, and it would be tough to make ends meet at the grocery store and meet my utility bills. I guess you are just swimming in money Lasi. I guess you would like a new dark age to dawn (a little ironic play of words) where the population is culled by disease, we ride mules and drive wagons, and everything we eat is grown in our back yards? Buddy, what you are talking about is society after the apocalypse. Yeah, I guess we would have to change when you can't even buy a loaf of bread, or a bottle of milk. The reason people tighten their belts is because they are forced to do without. In this case forced to do without comes in the form of Government. You make it sound like bread lines and lines to buy shoes like in the Soviet Union of old is a good thing. Sorta sick. I believe in freedom, and you believe in what?? Crappy Soviet style health care that will bankrupt our country?? I may look at things a different way, but not that way. That way is sick and shows a envy and hate of your fellow man.