Metallurgic Techniques

Hi!

I'm new here.  I'm an artist, so I am very interested in all the creativity I see in the posts on this board!

As a sculptor, I have used some metallurgic techniques myself, so I'm interested to learn what specific techniques Swift was thought to employ.
Can anyone tell me other than smelting silver, what he was known to do with it?  For example, was he using advanced techniques like casting to counterfeit French crowns?  Do we have any photographs of his work (counterfeited coins)? Does anyone have resources that describe his background in metalwork, and where he learned his skills?

Certain techniques like lost wax casting were heavily guarded in the few European families who have had access to them since the Renaissance.

If he was using very advanced metalluric processes like these, he may have smuggled more than the basic materials needed.  Just walking away with the knowledge alone with the intent to put it to use was an act of industrial espionage of the highest order.

I've only begun to look into these questions, so I would be interested to hear from anyone who can point me to some resources! 

Best,

Pam

Pam,
Let me be the first to welcome you to this forum.....
The metallurgic techniques you speak of, I'm currently studying.... After Swift melted the silver from the ore, slag or a "slag pile" would be a good sign to look for......this would be located in or near a good size rockhouse....This smelting process he would have formed his ingots, and pigs (bars) in the casting bed of the furnace...Remember it would take alot of work to feed the furnace with "ore" and "charcoal". The smelting process would take up to a few hours to a half a day depending on the size of the furnace. Also a thing to remember is the bigger the furnace the louder the roar...they had to be careful of Indians on warpartys roaming the area.... I believe Swift formed ingots to make coins with and the bars to store for a latter time. This is were the rockhouse just above the furnace comes in to play, this is where Swift or should i say "Montgomery" Struck the ingots into Crowns... They used the basic iron crucibles and coining dies to strike the Crowns. I have yet to see a Crown made by Swift, I have seen silver relics forged by Indians. The Indians would form a huge burn pile, placing the Silver ore on top, the silver would melt out of the rocks and gather at the bottom of the fire pit, from here the Indians would hammer or forge the silver to the shape or form they was wanting....
This makes me wonder what metals would have been found in the Silver ore Swift used, Iron, Silver, Lead, etc....



also which raises this question....Silver is a soft metal, like gold. Wouldn't these men have to add a stronger metal in the coin dies along with the silver to hold it together better.....if not looks like the silver coin would break apart over time.

-Ki-

Ki,

Thanks for your response!  You have answered several of my questions.  The other question that has not yet been answered:  How were the dies made?  Do we have any clues?  This is where the artistry of counterfeiting comes into play.

Best,

Pam

Hi, Ki!

Sorry I forgot to answer your question!  Yes, other metals would be added as alloys to maintain the strength of the coin.  Ironically, the local counterfeiters were known for using as much or more silver in their mix as the Government that issued the official coins!  I don't know if the other ores were relatively more scarce, or if the counterfeiters were just in too much of a hurry to care.

http://books.google.com/books?id=7Y8KuzYGuDEC&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=beckler+coins+melungeons&source=bl&ots=ZepM5aLizT&sig=mFTjH24UQL6cDMaa_ASfCHPbSCc&hl=en&ei=SH75SrbLNoe4NvGewNcK&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=beckler%20coins%20melungeons&f=true

Above is a link that refers to the legendary silver counterfeit coins and the furnaces used to produce them.

Best,

Pam

Pam,
      Great question: How where the dies made?
       The year following Swift's first trip into Ky in 1760, Swift added some men to his crew. One man named Seth Montgomery, Montgomery had worked in the royal mint in London, and had great knowledge on making coin dies, and molds for coining money. How his actual dies were made is unknown... I'll see what i can dig up on this for you, I'll reply it in a post this evening...

Thanks for the link above........    -Ki-

Hi, Ki!

Depending on how they were made, the furnaces you describe might also have been necessary to the process of creating the dies for the coins.  

Maybe you will come up with something better than I have about how the dies were created!  The sources I found said that "the process of cutting the dies [at the mint in London] was kept secret."

Naturally.  Another question that interests me:  if Swift got rid of Seth Montgomery and the rest of the members of the party, do we have any idea where the Mullins family got their metallurgic techniques?  I understand they produced slightly different counterfeit coins than Swift did.  Even if they were to stumble on Swift's abandoned dies near the site of the mine (assuming that he was absent-minded enough to leave them behind), that would not give them the secrets of producing new dies of their own.

Curiouser and curiouser.

Best,

Pam

 

Pam,
      I don't think Montgomery made the coin dies from the furnaces they smelted silver from. In a great book called "Kentucky's last frontier" it tells almost the same story about Montgomery in the other books. Here is a ex-cert: Seth Montgomery, one of the party had worked in the Royal Mint in London. After his arrival at Alexandra Va. he began to engrave and cut the dies for coinage of silver and gold.
He gain his knowledge from working in the Royal Mint, and brought it with him to Virgina. He made his dies, and the company brought them into the wilderness with them. It is believed that they left these dies in the Great cave or the mine. The dies were engraved to make the French crown, most counterfeiters since made Spanish coins, like Sol Mullins. The French Crown dies have not yet been found.

It has also been stated that the coins they passed were of such quality, that they were accepted as legal tender of the time. That  the silver content was higher than others made elsewhere. Further evidence of Montgomery's past being accurate.

Hi, Ki and Swiftfan

Yes, that is the completely amazing thing about these counterfeits.  Everything you read about counterfeits assumes that something of lesser value is being substituted for the "real thing."  All the techniques you read about involve substituting other metals for the precious ones.  These are the exception to the rule:  better than "real"--truly astonishing fakes.  

First, it's no wonder we have few surviving Swift-mine coins.  Being worth more than their "real" counterparts clearly made them vulnerable to being melted down and re-used.  

Second note:  Why make coins when you have scads of perfectly good silver?  The problem is cashing it in.  You will have to answer hard questions, like where you got it from, or if you refuse,  you will be vulnerable to accusations of theft.  Or someone could easily follow you to your mine, and bring a slew of prospectors along behind them.  The claim to the mine could be disputed, you could be murdered in your sleep, and so forth.  It seems the counterfeiters were more afraid of having to own up to their source of silver than they were afraid of the governments they subverted by producing their own coinage.  

Third note:  Since he may have completed the dies in Virginia, the fact that Montgomery had experience in the Royal Mint in London does not account for how the Mullins produced completely different coins (requiring different dies) that were also thought to be excellent fakes.    

Fourth note:  How interesting that the US Government began moving the Shawnee west just about the time that the Mullins counterfeit operation was exposed.  Vast speculation on my part, I know.

More on metallurgic techniques as soon as I have a chance!

Best,

Pam

  

Dear Frogling;
You wrote:
Certain techniques like lost wax casting were heavily guarded in the few European families who have had access to them since the Renaissance.

This statement is wholly incorrect, my friend. Lost wax casting has been known for literally 1000's of years. In fact, the lost wax casting process was thoroughly described by the Benedictine monk Theophilus Presbyter in a text which he wrote between the years 1100 and 1120 AD. His collection of writings is known collectively as the "Schedula diversarum artium" or "List of Various Arts" in English. Not only does he outline in detail the art of goldsmithing, he also outlines the making of stained glass windows, the illustration and illumination of texts and walls, oil paintings, to include the manufacture of paints and inks and there is even a section on constructing a pipe organ.

The Gloucester Candlestick is an absolutely marvellous example of Medieval lost wax casting at it's finest and it was completed around 1100 AD, however it is by no means the oldest known example of the lost wax casting process. The earliest examples of lost wax casting are from the Aegean civilization of the Bronze Age and there exists examples dating as far back as 13th century BC. Also, the ancient Egyptians were highly prolific casters and they used the lost wax casting technique extensively as is detailed in the tomb of Pharoh Tutankhamun.

In short, the art of lost wax casting was well known by the time of the Renaissance period and it was not a heavily guarded secret, or even a secret as such. By the dawn of the later Middle Ages a very large proportion of gold and silver artifacts, especially those used as jewelry were manufactured using the lost wax technique.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Hi, Lamar

Great to hear from someone who is interested in metallurgic techniques!  

Lost wax casting is largely known as an ancient technique, one that marked the beginning of the bronze age.
Yes, the Italians did have lost wax casting as late as the Renaissance.  The techniques were not unknown in Europe.  However, that does not mean the techniques were broadspread.  There is a difference between knowing about the techniques and being able to carry them out.  There have been remote pockets of civilization that have carried on lost wax casting in many areas of the world.  But until farily recently, the USA was not able to carry them out.  We only started using lost wax for industrial purposes in about 1850.  In fact, lost wax investment techniques have only been used for industrial purposes such as dentistry in the United States since 1907.

http://www.lost-wax-casting.com/RESENT%20HISTORY.htm

So what is your opinion of what you read of the Swift counterfeit coins?  Poured or struck?  If struck, how do you think the dies were made?  If poured, sand or lost wax?

And the Mullins counterfeit?  Poured or struck?  If you have an opinion, I'd love to hear how you came to your conclusions.

Best,

Pam  

Dear frogling;
Actually, the art of casting jewelry by using the lost wax method was not unknown to the early Anglo-Saxon goldsmiths, as is evidenced by the many surviving rings, pendants and brooches which show an incredible amount of fine detail and a degree of sophisication which simply could not be duplicated by using chasing the gold or silver using the very rudimentary tools of the day. In fact, even the modern era pneumatic chasing and engraving tools are hard pressed to compete with the extremely fine details which can be attained by carving directly onto a wax model then transferring the model from wax into either gold or silver.

Lost wax casting was already in very widespread use by 1907, when the process was first introduced in the dentistry field. Prior to being utilized by dentists, the lost wax method consisted of making a wax model and then packing a metal frame (actually one half of frame, called a sandwich frame) called a *cope* with a special mixture of sand and clay. This is called green casting sand and it would be packed into the half frame very tightly, after which the wax model would be placed in the center of the packed sand along with a small diameter rod for the gold to flow into the cavity and talcum powder to act as a release agent.

At this point the other half of the frame, called the drag, is placed on top and is secured to it's mate via bolts and nuts. More sand is packed into the drag frame and then after the sand is tightly packed together, the two halves are separated and the metal sprue rod is removed. Then assembly is placed upside down and heated to permit the wax to melt out of the mold and out the sprue channel. When all of the wax has been melted away, the frame assembly is placed upright and the molten alloy is poured into the sprue opening, which flows down the channel and into the cavity made by the wax. After the alloy has hardened the halves are separated, the sand is washed off of the item and the piece is then finished.

The reason why many people seem to think that lost wax casting did not come into being until 1907 is because in 1897 a dentist named Dr. D. Philbrook in Council Bluff, Iowa wrote an extensive paper on making dental crowns and inlays using the lost was process. The use of lost wax casting was further improved upon in 1907 by a dentist named Dr. William Taggart of Chicago, Illonois and his biggest contributions to the lost wax casting process were the inventions and developments of a fireproof investment material and a casting machine which used air pressure to force the molten alloy into the mold.

This was the start of the modern era of investment casting, and while it is considered to be a form of lost wax casting, the use of the fireproof investment material, which is similiar to plaster of paris, and also the centrifical casting machines, ushered in a new era of casting precious alloys. This was followed of course by vacuum casting machines and other refinements until the modern process little resembles the traditional lost wax casting process of yester year.

If Mr. Swift did in fact counterfeit coins then undoubtedly he would have cast them as striking them would have entailed hydraulic machinery. He also would have undoubtedly used a master mold, made from a low melting point metal such as pewter or even aluminum in which to produce the wax models. At that point the models would have been placed in a sand investment as this was the only known investment material of the day.

Strictly as an aside, my mom's family have been making jewelry for about the last 800 years or so, therefore I do happen to know a bit about the art of manufacturing jewelry. I was also a jewelry maker for about 15 years. :-)
Your friend;
LAMAR

Wow, 13th century jewelry.

Hi, Lamar!

Great, someone with more experience with casting than me!

Woo hoo.  You're a treasure in yourself.

And I don't mean to contradict you, but you do make my point that these techniques have been passed down in families for hundreds of years.  Knowing of them, and knowing how to do them are two different things, as I'm sure you will agree.  And your family has known how to do them.

So back to my question: how do you think these coins were made?  I'm particularly curious about the Mullins coins.  They were not made with the same dies Swift's operations used, because they were different coins.  One family member claimed, "I have found the money making type at my dad's.  It had hinges." 

http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/BLAIR-JACOB/1999-10/0939086579

Does this suggest anything to you about the methods used in producing the counterfeit coins?

Best,

Pam

Dear frogling;
To start at the beginning, the art of making European jewelry first originated in the courts of the nobility. Royal jewelers lived and worked either inside of the boundaries of a castle or within sight of the castle's walls. In this manner the leige was able to provide a certain measure of security for His subjects. Jewelry making was often handed down from father to son and it was not unusual for several generations of jewelers to be working in the same shop at the same time, however this was not always the case.

As in all of the ancient tradecrafts of the era, apprentices were being taken in to learn the various trades on a fairly constant basis. The family of the apprentice would work out some sort of payment deal and the shop master would then feed and care for the apprentice whilst teaching him a trade.

This system remained popular until the rise of the trade guilds. Once the trade guilds become powerful enough, tradesmen started leaving the manor estates and started settling in communities. As time passed, these communities ranged further and further away from the leige's castle and this is how towns and cities rose to prominence. Also, the rise of the trade guilds ushered out the fuedal system and in it's place arose a new period in Europe, the Renaissance Era.

During the Renaissance period, being accepted into a trade guild became a much more arduous process and one that entailed strict controls and measures. The time-honored system of a father passing his knowledge onto his sons was still deemed as acceptable, but the guilds further restricted the amount of skilled craftsmen working at any one place at any time and they also regulated the price of labor for the tradesmen of the guilds. This was also the start of the modern-ay trade unions and even today in parts of Europe the older trade unions still refer themselves as trade guilds.

It was because of the strict controls of the trade guilds that the local nobility often imported foreign trade workers, as was the case in England when the nobility brought in large numbers of Eastern Germanic silversmiths in order to ease the stranglehold that the silversmith guilds of England has placed upon the local economy. These East German silversmiths were called Easterlings by the British and in time the Easterlings became so well known that their name persists today as Sterling. This is how the word STERLING silver got it's name. The Sterlings worked only with .925 silver and over time, if a piece of silver was worked by an Easterling, then it was called sterling silver, being that it was manufactured and worked by an ancestor of the original Germanic silver working immagrants.

Therefore, while the trade guilds heavily restricted and protected the craft trades of the day, there were always those who worked on the fringes, or completely outside of, the regulations and dues of the trade guilds.

And now onto the question which you asked me:

To have produced silver coinage by casting would have been a relatively simple process during the time of Swift. All one needed was an actual coin, a two piece sand casting frame, some sand, a parting agent, and a source of heat.

The cope is packed full of wet sand then the coin placed in the center. The drag frame is placed on top then the parting agent, such as finely ground chalk or even flour, is sprinkled on the sand. Then the drag is placed on top and secured to the cope after which time the drag is then packed with more wet sand. When both halves are tightly packed with sand, the cope and drag are separated at the part line where the parting agent was sprinkled and the coin removed, then the two halves were placed back together then re-secured to form a two piece mold.

The mold assembly is then heated, such as by placing the assembly in a fire, while at the same time the alloy is being heated to the melting point. Once the alloy has reached the melting stage and the  frame adaquately heated, the alloy is poured into the frame. After it cools the piece is removed and then finished by filing and polishing.

An even faster way of doing the same thing would have been to have accquired a master coin, or several master coins and have a master mold made of them. The master mold is of course made from an alloy with a lower melting point than the master coin(s) and once the master mold is constructed, wax coin models can be produced en masse.

Once the approriate amount of wax coins have been cast, they are placed inside of the sand casting frames in the same way as previously described, only without needing to use a parting agent. In this manner the wax stays inside of the sand frame until it is melted out by the frame. The advantage to this method is that a large frame can be constructed and 5 or 10 or even more wax coin models placed inside of the frame and cast all at once. Using this method a person would be able to cast as many as 25 coins at once.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Hi, Lamar

Do you think sand casting is a good match for the high quality of coins these counterfeiters were said to produce?  Sandcast counterfeit was said to have a giveaway ring to it, if I'm not mistaken.

Scott's Counterfeiting in Colonial America mentions sandcast coins, but suggests they would have been quite crude and usually visibly detectable as fakes.

http://www.counterfeitcoins.com/marc-8reales/Counterfeit-Spanish-Milled-Dollars.html

Are there any particular reasons you would steer away from striking as the Mullins method?

Would there be any difference in the type of foundry needed to cast dies for any particular type of casting or pouring process?  I just wondered if you could give us some clues about what sort of stonework might have been left by the counterfeiters.  For the simple pouring method, you said the die requires a lower melting temperature than the master coin.  So is "hot enough" just as good for any heat process as far as a counterfeiter is concerned?  Would a muffle of loosely stacked kiln bricks be good enough?

Thanks for sharing your expertise!

Best,

Pam

Great topic you guys.... very interesting.........
To add just a bit of my 2 cents, i strongly believe the coins were struck.
Alot of Swift references refer to a sledge being used when coining the metal,
the sledge had a engraving of the French crown on the top side. It is believed
that the sledge along with the dies, and other apparatus was left in the
mine or one of the mines after operations had ended.

I'll share some of my research when i get some free time, I've been busy with
fieldwork these last couple of weeks.....   HH  -Ki-

Hi, Ki

I agree, Lamar has a wealth of information at his fingertips!

And Ki, I'll give you a whole Spanish dollar for your thoughts!  And I have this bridge. . . smile.

I agree with you that there is no reason to think the Swift coins were anything other than struck.  The Mullins coins were a different matter.  You can't use dies for French Crowns to strike Spanish pieces of eight.  Entirely different coins, and in the absence of Swift's expert out of the Royal Mint, very likely an entirely different process.  Or no reason to presume the process was the same; the dies were, as you pointed out, cut in Alexandria, Va.  Unless the Mullins were there watching, they would have used whatever methods they were conversant with to create the dies for the Spanish coins.

Look forward to getting your updates!

Best,

Pam

Dear frgoling;
The coin striking process is simply too much of a task for a small operation, my friend. In order for a coin to have been struck using the hammer method, one would have needed several assistants and of course the major problem with the hammer method is the fact that reliable finished weights were extremely difficult to have been achieved.

If mr. Swit used a striking mill then he would have been able to produce coinage of a quality and quantity approaching that of a national mint, however even the smallest of these manpowered screw type striking presses weight many tons and required many manual laborers to operate. The adavantage is that the rolling mill, blank punch and mill press were often times incorporated into a single unit and the finished coinage weights were notably accurate and precise.

Also, all US trade dollars had reeded edges, that is, the edges were serrated. This precluded them from being clipped by unscrupilious sorts. Also, reeded edge coins are notoriously difficult to strike using the hammer method and hammered coins are best manufactured with a smooth, or non-serrated edge.

In light of these facts, the coins could have only been produced via the casting method or the coin milling method as the denominational weight differences between individual coins using the hammer method was simply too great.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Casting, sand, slurry or spinning is the one thing that I do know something about and I can tell you that casting is not the way to produce a coin. I could't think of a less efficient way of producing a coin, way to labor intensive.

Bill   

Hi, Bill, Lamar and Ki

Bill, thanks for throwing in!  So the obvious question is, if you are sure casting wasn't used at any point in the process (more to say about this in a minute), then what technique do you think was employed to make these coins?

If the coins were not poured, a die had to be made.  Can you propose some way to make a die without casting?  What is this process?  I would like to hear more.

Ki, what are the references to the sledge you described?  Can you cite your sources?  

Lamar, may I ask your opinion?  Does the Mullins family mention of a hinged "type" for making the coins preclude the striking method?  I don't know how a coin could be "struck" from a hinged type without damaging the hinges, but maybe I lack in imagination or experience with coin striking.

We might also need to keep in mind the interest of the parties involved in keeping their techniques close to their chests.  These were individuals, after all, who preferred to produce counterfeit rather than disclose the source of their silver.  There might be a bit of self-protective disinformation in some of these accounts.  I would tend to trust the descriptions of the most disinterested parties, in the absence of examining the actual coins.

Anyone else care to chime in?

Best,

Pam

The way i tend to look at how Swift and Montgomery could have coined their metal is simple. Put yourself in there shoes, your out in the wilderness, the only previsions brought with you are on pack animals, as well as your mining equipment. I lean towards this, the furnaces were used to cast the pigs and ingots, this was at the furnace rockhouse. From here one could simply carry and reheat the metal else where, this could be done at the rockhouse where the men lived, its was located 100yards above the furnace rockhouse.
Now comes the big question of how the coins where made. Could Montgomery have reheated the metal and poured in the dies he had, or could the metal be soft enough to just be heated and put between two dies and struck with a hammer? No Swift coins have yet to be proven found, so this question could be never answered until such time.
Here are a few good links......
SilverMine - http://home.eckerd.edu/~oberhot/printmelle.htm
Hammer struck - http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinIntros/BritishDenominations2.html
Casting - http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinIntros/Casting.intro.html



The date on Swifts made crowns would of been from 1752-53, Swift and Montgomery had bought ships together, but why? They could have been shipping the coins and silver back over seas. I know that most of the french crowns in circulation in the colonial time was sent back overseas at certain times, but still this idea still raises many questions.
Well gotta run, I'm burning daylight........  -Ki-

I have to agree with ki on this one. I think they would have crude methods at best in which to make their coins. The pigs probably would have been reheated elsewhere in the coining process. They possibly made a set of molds, like bullet molds to male enough coins for the winter, and the provisions for the next years journey. The pigs would have been taken elsewhere for safekeeping till they could have been converted. (the great cave?) that would explain why Swift looked after blindness rook his eyes for the lost silver. Just a thought..
-swiftfan- 

Hi All,
Have to put my two cents in……I highly respect everyone’s input, view  and opinion and I love this even when we disagree ……. its sharing info…… I just learned a lot about the casting stuff… Thank  you guys/gals.
First …the version of the legend I have indicated Swift made English Crowns…how about yours? The government arrested him for counterfeiting…had to be English …….they had no jurisdiction over the French coinage/counterfeiting. Trade coins with serrated edges are a great idea and no doubt used…but the coins I saw English and French did not have serrations. So, one step of the striking process that would create friction and made striking difficult eliminated.  I know most of you have heard of the Spangle, Sprinkle, and other (real) counterfeit coins which some of them were very crude but others quite good. All were made using the striking methodology. A good friend of mine (now deceased who got me into spending years looking for the Swift Mines) found a set of dies in the 1970s near the Grayson reservoir. They were dies (not molds) of English crowns and were loaned to the U of K. As far as I know they were never returned…could still be on a shelf there? Oh, the UK people did an analysis of the material they were wrapped in….Bear tallow/fat covered and the wrapping was a bear skin….time period was possibly 1750 to 1770.
This was when I first started and have lost a topo that showed where he found the dies, a carved DAS with 1763(Swifts wife’s name was Desiree Ann Swift), two monument rocks, the furnace, Buffalo rock, Light house, haystack rock etc. (I helped him out by identifying an area of 40 acres that fit the description of where they kept the horses.  The 40 acres was not in a hollow by the way, but up on top of a cliffy area surrounded by rivers and creeks with a very narrow opening.
 I just recently found the place where they had buried four kegs of coins (someone got there before me though) ---most Swift hunters are way out of their league…these guys were pure genius in how they hid them... Almost in plain sight! Within two miles of this location I found Spanish words carved in a rock, another large rock (turtle shaped with a map on it that may be Spanish or Indian. So the Swift party may have found old Spanish workings or the Shawnee may have shown them where some of their forefathers were in slaved to work for the Spanish. Three were a small cache of Spanish coins dating in the 1600s found within four miles of this area. Good news is I can show you the places he marked…I think he found the general location of the upper mines.  I can show you four of them….all but one are buried….and unlike others hear I can provide the ore samples! Anyone got the funds to invest to start mining? I have a geologist ready to help with the claim. I teach college (CAD) and so this type of funding is out of my ball park.
Sorry for getting off topic there. But they definitely struck the coins. They didn’t have to have all the equipment to “mill” them. An apparatus with a cast iron frame could have been placed in pieces on multiple mule loads, reassembled, used and then of course hidden…why take it back when you intended to return and make more coins? I am not a coin person, couldn’t make the coin die, but I could make a coin stamping rig that just needed a 5 lbs. sledge to operate it and two men. Make at least 30 coins an hour….all done on technology older than Swift.  One station would cut the coins to size, the next actually imprint them. The two stations would be centered and then the blank quickly rotated,  If the slugs were hot maybe even more per hour.

As to the Sol Mullins thing, has anyone seen one of those? Let’s look at the dates…one resource says the people that they are the descendants of may have been Portuguese and others…..well the Portuguese were very good at making coins too…could be they have had a guy that used to work in the mint in Lisbon. …Swift didn’t have a corner on the market….haha

I think I have heard of the area you are talking about, though I have never been there. I wish I could invest in some sample research. maybe you could get a geologist to examine the strata to see what kind of rocks and how they lay. I have always thought that minerals, metals and the like could be found around faults. Maybe examining the eddys of the nearby streams would yield a better idea of the makeup of the surrounding area.

 In the journals, it mentions the party dividing. It could be that you have found is the area of the upper workings. now, with the finding of the dies you mentioned, is it possible in your opinion that there were two or more sets, each set traveling to each of the mines? I wonder what it would take to get the die set back? hmm..  Are there any pictures of these? I would love to see them.

 Well anyway the age old question would still exist. What if you found one of the mines? What would you do? Me, I would extract some ore, get it sampled, and then proceed to refine a small amount for myself as a "archaeological experiment" to see if it possible to do what they supposed to have done in the wilderness. Next, get all the necessary paperwork to get rights as an archaeological site. That, in some way would hopefully protect that area from future damage from the modern world around it, including the curious public. Because if word gets out at all, it would spread like wildfire. Not to mention the landowner. If it is private land, you would stand a better chance of getting your goal accomplished, than having to deal with some sort of government or business. But remember to get permission first! Written would be best.

 Wish I could Help you there, but I'm here with all of the rest of us to help you along, so if you need anything, let us know, and good luck!

Matt James
-swiftfan-

Dear group;
Everyone is proceeding with the discussion under the assumption that the silver mines in question are more than a fanciful treasure tale. Due to extensive geological explorations of the entire East Coast, in search of coal deposits, there has yet to turn up even the merest hint of a silver deposit.

Unlike gold, silver breaks down readily into it's component parts, such as silver oxides, silver chlorates, silver halides and silver nitrates. Knowing this we can then easily discern from the broken down silver remnants the general vicinity of the lode in question. As yet, no viable evidence has been uncovered which would lead one to think that a sizable silver deposit lies in wait for the lucky discoverer.

Taking the facts into consideration, one can assume that the tales of Johnathan Swift's mines are wholly false and without merit, or that Johnathan Swift stumbled upon a rather large hidden silver cache, which he then exploited.  It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that Swift would have extracted the silver, then smelted it, processed it and then converted it into coinage and ingots.

The labor involved in such a venture would have been daunting for a small operation and the fact remains that no counterfeit silver coins or silver ingots have ever been attributed as to being from Johnathan Swift's hand lends credence to this testament. Perhaps the reason why no counterfeit coins have surfaced is because the coins were not counterfeited to begin with, rather they were legitimately produced coins and hidden by a party as yet unknown.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Oh Lamar,
Always the skeptic! Let’s make a deal...I will show you 5 silver mines in Kentucky and four in Ohio that I have found. I know the location of three more in Ohio. You put up the money to buy the land on each one at a time and develop it and pay me 10 percent of the net! Let’s start with the first one. We (sorry YOU) can probably buy the land in Ky for $100,000 (10 acres that is all that it would take on one of the mines..the best one) You of course will also have to front the permits with the EPA and Army Corp of Engineers...environmental impact study...etc ect. The opening of the mine is going to be really easy its only about 6 feet deep start it goes at least 100 yards and is 40 yards wide. I don't know how deep the vein is as I haven't made the deal with the farmer who is a great guy...we may be able to lease the mineral rights and get around the 100K. If you are not interested then maybe you know someone who is? Oh the best part I would require you to write a nice long description of just how much silver there is in KY and post it here …when we are done that is. You see I have in my possession something I would have told anyone was crazy until I used it. I can find silver and gold ores at long distances in small or large amounts. I found a small gold nugget the size of a match head at 1/8 mile away, and have a reference for you to check out from an invitation I accepted right here on the forum …went down about 4 hours drive from my house to check out some gold coins…(didn’t find the coins…we think they were retrieved later) but found 5 gold deposits on the guys property that were placer gold dust deposits. I originally bought this thing (very expensive --not a metal detector or GPR, nor a dowser…brand new technology the inventor is a genius and great guy!) to confirm my research and foot work as to where the mines were…..since then I have been having the time of my life! It will cut your search time down from days and weeks down to minutes and hours!  Just to get Swiftsearchers blood pumping….if he can get me within ½ mile of the Great Cave I can find it…if it has silver in it.  Of course we can always to a grid of ¼ to ½ mile searches. I can even give you an approximation on depth with it. And if that is a vault I can tell you if there is silver or gold in it before you open it.
Ah, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof (someone’s byline on the forums here)…and you found the guy who has it! Anyone want to see it in action…let’s talk! PM me about what you have been looking for and I’ll try to get with you and collapse the time frames it takes!  I’ll sign a nondisclosure form for you too! I will require a percentage of course but it won’t break you up, depends on how good your site is and how far from me it is…I don’t mind your helping with  the travel expenses if it’s more than 2 hours away. Will even consider some charity work if it’s for the right cause.  Right now I am set up for gold, silver, aluminum and copper…… no it won’t find them all at one time. It uses a computer program to lad each element so you only find that one you are looking for!

Swiftfan,

Yes they may have had several mines in both directions…most journals indicate that. I believe Boomer (great source of information and wisdom) stated that he thinks this is true also. I have a geologist that is just chomping at the bit to go look at this stuff she teaches at the same college as I do. She mentioned just as you did that if there are faults around there is a good chance that there is silver and gold. Well, she gets out her handy dandy fault charts and sure enough there is one that goes right thur this area. I am going to give part of it away just for LAMAR, my area is very close to where they found KIMBERLITE pipe.  Interesting stuff here, found Indian stair steps, ....real carved foot placements! Found where they toppled over the furnace, and where they may have stayed…which is within 200 yards of where my friend found the dies…and was marked on his topo map. The dies…This happened back in the early to mid 1970s and it was what he told me in person….but I have no idea of who to contact to try to find out any record of who had the dies, where they may be or even if they were returned to his family. I imagine he had plenty of pictures but he didn’t bring them into work to show us. He liked me and my buddy Jay and would talk to us and tell us where to go to find things he had found…no Lamar he wasn’t carving and making stuff to let us find…the Indian stair steps were not on his map, nor was the map that leads to the silver mines! Nor was the Spanish writing carved into a rock.  A good Christian guy PMed me last year and I went and found the Turkey tracks he said were there. They are is about 3-4 miles upstream from the rest of the stuff mentioned above.  See, if we keep on sharing it works, I am not saying anyone should give it all up but the things that are not major finds we can reveal to one another to help them build their case…that’s why I posted about the fallen natural bridges…I had researched and found where there was suppose to have been one in the area I am looking…it wasn’t there…it had fallen down!

Swiftfan, don’t let the dream crushers bother you, they are really an asset to us here….they keep us honest and make us prove what we say…that is what critical thinking skills are all about! I enjoy posting and reading these great finds you all are documenting….when we put our collective minds together we each help with ideas, finds, suggestions, etc that will lead someone to the exact proof they need to show everyone just how Swift did it.  I do not claim that the mines I have found are Swifts, but they are silver mines and as I search this fall and winter I may come across some compelling evidence so as to be able to make that claim….but like in a lot of other places a lot of things fit.  How many monument rocks in a river/creek are there that are the heights he mentions? Not as many as you would think …remember the creek/river has to flow in the right direction too! Not many of those with two monument rocks right where he says coupled with the other things I mentioned.  We hear things too that are not far from this like there is a rock in the Grayson Reservoir that has all of the party’s names carved on it and dates! And the non proven legend that when they were building the reservoir they found a good sized vein of silver…not sure about that one…not as far as I know documented.
Oh and about the metal processes, not far from the reservoir there is a hollow that a friend was telling me about years ago that I have never checked out…he said there was a chimney that laid beside a rock house that went up along the cliff face that would let smoke out in small amounts like to disperse it! he said is it looked to be incredibly old! Hmmmm
Now to share a hint on a great idea I have….anyone out there that has access to a spectrometer?  If you do let me know by PM.  We can collect water samples and…….. that is the hint guess the rest! Will share the rest by PM.

Curtis you couldn't have said that better....... I agree 100%

Also the Swift legend is real..... Its just the countless copying and recopying of the Swift journal tends to throw out the actual facts.

Dear group;
Ok, now let me see if I am perfectly clear on this. It can be proven to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that silver deposits exist in Kentucky and Ohio, yet I will need to front some 100,000$ (most likely in cash, no doubt) in order for it to be proven to me??? Hmmmmm...
Your friend;
LAMAR

Now, now, don’t get confused I mean that’s what it will cost to purchase the property IF he will sell. I stressed you would have to buy it because i sure don't have the funds. Let’s just say the cheapest way to get to it maybe to buy the mineral rights ....like i said haven't told him yet that it’s there. I had to do the research to make sure that even though he owns the property he still owns the mineral rights and it looks like none has ever sold them from the property.  You will have to give me a little time to get back down there and talk to him about letting you dig. We will have to blindfold you (and whoever you bring) when we get within 5 miles of the place....how would that be? The place in KY is near Grayson Reservoir, which is about 2.5 hours from where I live near Cincinnati.  I just have to protect the location of place in case you would try to go around me and make a deal for it. When would you like to go?

Again you will have to agree to write a positive post here after you have the samples YOU take with you analyzed and show it silver ore....if it doesn't you don't have to write the post can I get anymore fair than that?

Sorry for the side tracking from the topic.... here is a photo of a Coin Press circa Swifts time...a GEARED design you don't even have to use a hammer, slow, but they had all the time they needed...I can just see Munday talking to Montgomery...."yes sir, you have designed a mighty nice machine here, I kind of enjoy working with it and so do the rest of the guys...no one minds taking a turn....everyone we make is more than three days wages for one man! We are rich, rich I tell you! I'll add the 600 I make today to the 12,000 I already have since arriving 2 weeks ago" Its Swifts turn tomorrow if we can get him out of the mine."

Dear Curtis;
Yes, that's a coin press, sure enough, all 6 odd TONS of it, however I am not quite so sure that no one would have minding taking a turn, as you put it. Generally speaking, that type of coin press was worked by a group of 8 to 12 men, working for about 15 minutes after which time another group of men relieved them. Also, the coin press you,ve shown is only one stage of the minting process, my friend. Before coins could be minted, first the material needed to sized on a rolling mill in order that all coins were the same thickness and material density. Next, the blanks needed to have been punched from the milled stock, deburred and polished. Only then were the coins ready to have been struck. In short, it was a slow, tedious process and one which was not well suited, not easily adapted, to a backwoods counterfeiting operation.
Your friend;
LAMAR

It was possable to carry such a device in to the wilderness, they had pack animals, some times around 100 in a train. Its possable such a device could have been carried in with two trips. The first journey Swift made was to locate, and prepare for the following year. It is also very possable to operate as well, Swift had More than enough men with him. Just a thought......  -Ki-

A Indain trail runs very close to the area your speaking of, also the area around where Jenny Wiley was captured and tells of Indians making her work the ore brought back from a Indian silver mine in that area. The silver ore contained lead as well.

Dear Ki;
Yes, my friend, practically anything is possible, yet was it FEASIBLE, from a strictly historical point of view? Also, before we start examining any possibilities we must first scrutinize the motives behind the assumed efforts. In other words, what possible motive would have driven mr. Swift to purchase, ship, disassemble, transport then reassemble an apparatus such as a minting press?

Also, if were merely a minting press and nothing else, then the plausibility of such an operation would be feasible, however they would have also needed a rolling mill and blank punch, both items which weighed just as much, if not more than the actual coin press itself. Also, the cost for these three items would have been substantial and the mere purchase of them would have most likely raised a few eyebrows back in the court of jolly Ol' England. Surely, if an individual were to purchase such items, then it would have aroused no small amount of suspicion, my friend.

Once again, the possibility of setting up and operating such an enterprise was somewhat feasible, however the motive for doing so was not. Why would a person devote such a vast amount of time, money and effort in order to mint counterfeit coinage with a higher purity than the government??? It makes absolutely no sense at all, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar --- Honestly i would not think a device such as a coin press would have been used. I agree 100%, To much work involved. Montgomery engraved dies in Virgina and carried them to Ky. He worked for the Royal Mint in London, and gain his coining knowledge there. I have read one story that the men used more silver than needed, this makes no since to me either. This could have came from the countless copying and recopying of Swifts journal. Is this story true, probally not. There was other trace elements the men could have added to the coins. Swifts Journal tells of another metal the men found to be useful in the coining process.
Swift learned his knowledge and location of these mines from the Shawnee which he traded with. Montgomery put up the money for the operation. "The Scottish Company" Swift tells of purchasing ships from them. Fact being Scottish immigrants were often employed by colonial governments to collect taxes, enforce financial laws, collect duties, etc. Also a fact proving these men were real tells of Swift and Montgomery were both insured by Lloyd's Registry from 1761 to 1769 as merchants and sea captains sailing out of Alexandera Va. This i think would make a great cover for the silver trade, and plus ensure the money the men had invested. The reason no Swift coins have turned up is simple, the men stored them in the Indian cave, taking very little or what they could carry back with them in one trip. A date was set in 1791 for the men to return and bring out the money then. 1770 Swift traveled back to England, and was put in prison for 15 years, could this have been for counterfeiting? not sure. But he returned to draw support for a bigger mining operation.   I'm still researching my friend, but i tell you the legend is true...

The Rich Mine
One more thing i would like to debate, i hear people calling Swifts best mine the "rich mine". There is talk of the silver vein being so rich that the silver did not need to be put in the furnace, that Swift could have simply coined the silver from the vein, this i disagree with. When Swift refers to the mine being rich, hes simply talking about how many ounces of silver to the ton. An example of a mine being rich would be the men getting 200 ounces to the ton.... This is what Swift would be referring to the rich mine as.... just a thought   -Ki-

Hi all,This is great stuff!

Three items, first:  the guy that had the mint experience was from the London Mint, they had better and more modern things going for them than did the "Continentals" so to me it’s plausible that they had a better Press outfit than the unit you mentioned that weighed 6 tons (the picture mentions it scale model, but I don’t see it weighing 6 tons)! They would not have had to carry all of it as they could easily make all the wood parts when they arrived at their destination, then placed the metal portions cast/fashioned in civilization into the assembly. I am not a money expert by any means, but if the real coins were made just as you say using the press methodology, then how could they expect to make a counterfeit that is molded to look just like the sharp detail a press makes without doing the same process?  Wonder if there are examples of molded coins to compare. And please understand I am not insisting this is the way they did it, just trying to figure it out. I appreciate everyone’s input and these types of discussions are great. Let’s go back to Swifts descriptions …..how many versions say dies (dies are for press type work) and how many say molds? They knew the difference.
Second item is them using more silver than was needed was not referring to weight and only means they had a purity of say 98% where the real coins had a purity of say 94%. We all know the Europeans added materials to make the coins wear and to well, make the silver go further…kind of like our current situation…causes inflation.  The fact that they had more pure coins means that either they had a almost pure source to begin with, or they had a really good smeltingrefining process. I have read a lot of things on the internet on refining/smelting but I am not sure how much goes into getting it even more pure….but they did have a lot of time on their hands!
Third, the purity of the silver in the state they found it…..maybe someone can ask a geologist what is the purist form silver comes in naturally. I imagine some of it was pretty close, seems I remember Henson’s books saying some Indians that revisited KY in more modern times had very good ore. There are all kinds of chemicals/elements in combinations with silver in natural ores. Like you mentioned Ki, lead is a big one, so is gold. Wonder which are the quickest/easiest to refine? I also wonder about the residual effects of the refining on the miners…especially if it had lead or cyanide.

Found this little bit of information in "The official Red Book" and thought id share cause it talks about hand made dies.
"For many centuries, counterfeiters have produced base-metal forgeries of gold and silver coins to deceive the public in the normal course of trade. These pieces are usually crudely made and easily detected on close examination. Crudely cast counterfiet copies of older coins are the most prevalent. These can usually be detected by the casting bubbles or pimples that can be seen with low-power magnification. Pieces struck from handmade dies are more deceptive, but the engravings do not match those of genuine Mint products.....

In the Swift journal Swift tells of Montgomery making handmade dies of English and French Crowns..........

Yes dies not molds!