The Jesse James KGC Connection on History Channel

Walker Colt, wish I could help but I don't have that information.  I looked up the photo in my copy of "Rebel Gold" but it only had it marked as "8" with the caption underneath.  I checked the Acknowledgments and extensive bibliography for it too but was unable to locate it.  I can only assume, based on your information that says "Brewer", that it is in Bob Brewer's collection but that is only a guess. 

Ok, thanks for checking. I just think that man in the picture looks pretty old to be Bickley. Bickley died in his forties and this guy looks kinda old but prison is a hard life so it could be him. Wish we had a source.

I don't believe I ever stated that Jason W. James was a captain in the Texas Rangers, did I?

No sir you did not.  I was under the impression that CSA officers would keep their rank after the war when they joined the Rangers.  If I am mistaken, then I apologizes.  Please enlighten me.

In the spring of the following year young Jason James made a trip for another freighting firm, Cartwright and Jones, which took him to Fort Bridger. He spent the year of 1860 at his home in Waverly, Missouri. On May 11, 1861, he enlisted in a company of Missouri State Guards (Confederate troops) commanded by Captain C. J. Kirtley. Jason James served in some of the most important campaigns in Missouri, and Mississippi, and his services were outstanding and distinguished. He also served a tour of duty as recruiting officer in the State of Arkansas.[7]

When the war came to a close, Captain James and most of his men were on the Macon Ridge in Carroll Parish near Delhi. On June 27th, 1865, having been informed that all Confederate forces had surrendered, he went to Monroe alone and surrendered to Colonel William H. Dickie and secured paroles for himself and his men

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~lamadiso/articles/ward/chap09.htm

His tombstone lists him in the 6th CAV which was a regular CSA unit, not as State Guard

Capt Jason W. James     6th MO Cav

http://www.nm-scv.org/PageMill_Resources/CS_Military_BuriedNM.html

However -  he isn't listed in the soldier and sailor system of the civil war of regular CSA units.

Nor is he on the roster of the 6th CAV

http://www.missouridivision-scv.org/mounits/6mocav.htm

So he was a Captain in the State Guard, who wrote he rode with Quantrill, and also claimed he was in the 6th CAV.  But there is absolutely no evidence besides his writing to substantiate these claims.

I don't know, but I have some serious credibility issues with his war exploits. 

He writes he joined the rangers in 1884, which would have made him around 41 at the time.  Kind of old to be joining the Frontier Brigade, which was scaled down in 1885.

I have his book on disk somewhere - but I on't have time to fact check it all.  But it seems he embellished his history just a wee bit.

I've never said anything bad about the Masons as a whole.  I admit they do some very important work.  I just want to know why some are so terribly interested in the KGC sites we're working on if they agree with MasterMason, Alec, and other naysayers who contend there is no treasure on these sites.  Not being an insider, I don't know what degree one of our stalkers is but I do know the license plate numbers on his fancy silver/blue sports car and his Escalade.   
~Texas Jay
[/quote]

First off I would say you don't really have a KGC site. That doesn't mean there isn't treasure hidden in the area you are looking in but I highly doubt it has anything to do with the KGC. As for why somebody is interested in what you are doing, if a ranger is flying around in a helicopter they could just be curiosu as to what you are doing. Lots of nefarious types in the world that use public land for ilegal activites. Just because you get buzzed once or twice doesn't mean they are out to get you.

Maybe the guy in fancy sports car is another treasure hunter, maybe he owns the land you are wondering around on, maybe he's looking for a spot to take a hooker. Who knows? The fact you have seen a car at the spot you are looking can be relative to that spot. People get curious, people do their own thing. None of that means somebody is trying to steal your treasure from you.

This man was a Brownwood KGC leader?  He was killed at age 25, kind of youg to be a big shot.   Says nothing about being killed by John Wesley Hardin

Deputy Sheriff Charles Webb
Brown County Sheriff's Department
Texas
End of Watch: Tuesday, May 26, 1874

Biographical Info
Age: 25
Tour of Duty: Not available
Badge Number: Not available

Incident Details
Cause of Death: Gunfire
Date of Incident: Tuesday, May 26, 1874
Weapon Used: Handgun; .44 caliber
Suspect Info: Shot and killed

Deputy Charles Webb was shot and killed by a notorious outlaw wanted for murder, robbery, and cattle rustling. He had encountered the suspect outside of a local saloon and a gunfight ensued. Deputy Webb was able to shoot the man in the side before being shot in the head. As he fell two accomplices continued to shoot him.

The suspect was taken into custody, after being shot and wounded, by Texas Rangers outside of Pensacola, Florida. He was sentenced to 25 years but was pardoned by the Texas governor after serving only 16 years despite having murdered a reported 48 people. Following his release he became a lawyer, but was later shot and killed by a constable. The suspect's brother killed Kimble County Texas Deputy Sheriff John Turman in 1898.

Deputy Webb had previously served as a Texas Ranger and was a Mason. He was buried in Greenleaf Cemetery, in Brownwood, Texas.

Related Line of Duty Deaths

http://www.odmp.org/officer/13915-deputy-sheriff-charles-webb

Henry Ford - I have no idea how he fits into your grand scheme of things, Mr Texas Jay.

I did try to look him up to try to figure out the connection you seem to be making.  To be frank, all I found was he was a guy who worked hard and lived a good life.

And I found more threads I can count in more message boards than I knew existed where you are pushing you Bloody Bill theory (and yes it is a theory).  I also found many message boards where the families of the James and the Bills are disputing your theory.  How is it that only you know the truth?

Bloody Bill was killed when he was killed.  He would not have walked away in the middle of the war.  To think he did does a disservice to his legend.    This Henry Ford of yours doesn't seem to have even been in the war.  He certainly was never a member of the rotating James gang.  Simply being a Mason does not mean you are in on a big conspiracy. 

Your facts all seem to be hearsay, and an old William Anderson who was either having some fun or looking for some fame and glory.  Even the birth, marriage, death records I saw posted of "your" Bill, does not dissuade you,  only you are correct and everyone else is wrong. 

A member of the James family I have corresponded with over the years threw in the towel in one of the threads I read.  They gave up trying to convince you. 

You cannot pick and choose facts to fit a theory.  It just doesn't work.  But people have mentioned that to you before, and I am sure it won't change your historical view.

Sometimes the truth is just what it is, and not what you want it to be.

I don't mean to beat this to death, but:

On May 26, 1874, Hardin, Jim Taylor, and others were celebrating Hardin's 21st birthday in Comanche, Texas when Hardin spotted Brown County, Texas, Deputy sheriff Charles Webb. Hardin asked Webb if he had come to arrest him and when Webb replied he hadn't, Hardin invited Webb into the hotel for a drink. As he followed Hardin inside Webb drew his gun, one of Hardin's men yelled a warning and Hardin spun around while drawing his own guns. In the ensuing gunfight, Webb was shot dead.

Wikipedia is not a great historical information center.  I would trust the Texas Sheriffs department to know what happened.  Anyone can upload from any source, and many old newpapers have names mixed up.

August 19, 1895 John Weley Hardin was shot in El Paso.

Not by Texas Rangers, not in Pescecola, as the sheriff report states - and not even the same year.  I'm not even sure if the Sheriff deputy was in Comanch when he was shot.

Sometimes the truth is just what it is, and not what you want it to be.

Well said...well said   

Tnwoods: "Says nothing about being killed by John Wesley Hardin"


http://johnwesleyhardindays.com/

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/WE-JohnWesleyHardin3.html



http://www.franksrealm.com/Indians/Outlaws/pages/outlaw-johnwesleyhardin.htm

http://www.frontiertimes.com/outlaws/hardin.html

http://www.texasescapes.com/AllThingsHistorical/Hardin-Brothers-BB706.htm

~Texas Jay

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/WE-JohnWesleyHardin3.html

I have looked at this site before, and in researching the stories I was interested in, I found a lot of historical inaccuracies on the site.  Not intentional, but they are just coping other sources that were inaccurate

Hardin on a train coming to Alabama from Pensacola, Florida. Hardin was quickly convicted and sentenced to 25 years hard labor at Huntsville Prison.

http://www.franksrealm.com/Indians/Outlaws/pages/outlaw-johnwesleyhardin.htm

Same story, but again, the Sheriff report says the Rangers killed the man responsible.

Texas Rangers captured him in Pensacola, Florida, on July 23, 1877. He was tried at Comanche for the murder of Charles Webb

http://www.frontiertimes.com/outlaws/hardin.html

This story he isn't on the train, and Sheriff Webb was shot in 1874. not 1877

In June of 1874, John Wesley sent 13-year-old Jeff to collect $500 at a stockyard in Kansas City, which owed him money from the sale of cattle. John Wesley used the money to flee to Florida, where he was arrested on a railroad car at Pensacola in August of l877.

Again, 1877, not 1874, captured, not killed as to the Sheriff report.

All of these web sites seem to have copied a story from a book called “They died with their boots on” published in 1935, written by Thomas Ripley a mere 60 years after the fact

Here is a review from 1935 on this source book everyone uses for the Hadin tales

Thomas Ripley's new account of Hardin's gory career is a turbulent, romantic book in which guns roar on almost every page, remorseless pistolmen pink each other with grave aplomb, and hair-trigger gunplay is described in purple passages that smoke and crackle. Although he debunks some Western myths, Author Ripley is more interested in relating good, tall, cow-country tales.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,847495,00.html

While it sounds like a fun read, it doesn't seem to be very accurate historically.

If this quasi-fictional book is the only source of Hardin killing Sheriff Webb, and it conflicts the account the account Sheriff's themselves give, I would have to say I take the Sheriff version.

You should always try to find the source of the story.  A lot of history has simply been copied from earlier or other sources, which when you dig into it, you find the other sources are either not credible, or was a work of fiction that somehow got quoted as fact somewhere – and is quoted as fact from there on.  Very common for sories from the 1800's.

Historical web sites on outlaws are notorious for just copy and pasting stuff from each other.  No one ever checks for accuracy.

Now if you have an old 1874 newspaper clipping that backs up the story, that would be different.  But it sure looks like this whole story came out of a 1935 novel.

Cheers

While it sounds like a fun read, it doesn't seem to be very accurate historically.

If this quasi-fictional book is the only source of Hardin killing Sheriff Webb, and it conflicts the account the account Sheriff's themselves give, I would have to say I take the Sheriff version.

You should always try to find the source of the story.  A lot of history has simply been copied from earlier or other sources, which when you dig into it, you find the other sources are either not credible, or was a work of fiction that somehow got quoted as fact somewhere – and is quoted as fact from there on.  Very common for sories from the 1800's.

Historical web sites on outlaws are notorious for just copy and pasting stuff from each other.  No one ever checks for accuracy.

Bravo! Well said...again!

Action adventure novels do not have to be historically correct...just entertaining.

For the Masonic account of the killing of Brown County Deputy Sheriff Charles M. Webb by John Wesley Hardin in 1874 at Comanche, Texas, go to:

"Freemasonry in Brownwood" by Donovan Duncan Tidwell, published by Department of Printing, Masonic Home and School, Ft. Worth, Texas, 1966, pages 68 & 69.

Now, TNwoods, back to my ignore list so that you can do your homework.  
 
~Texas Jay

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery - We have much detailed information about this famous historical event transcribed in our Messages Archives here.  Since Tnwoods does not give any credence to "copied and pasted" documentation, I'll let her read it for herself but not in our group.  

She is a he, Texas Jay - assumptions, assumptions.

Do you have a link where this great historical document is posted?  I looked it up and I am not spending $30 on it.  Franky it isn't worth it to me.

I am still wondering about the Henry Ford connection, but I guess that is also in this same book.

If it proved you case, then I would think you would post the appropriate passages from it to shut me down.  Unless your afraid that I might check the info for historical accuracy, and dispute it too.

I'm not trying to pick on you, I check all information that looks relevant for historical accuracy, because if it isn't correct, I don't want to waste any more time following it as a lead.  Saves on a lot of gas money and wasted time.

I thought I was already on your ignore list?

Since Tnwoods does not give any credence to "copied and pasted" documentation,


No body should believe copy and pasted info.  One should look for the source, but then, that is only if one is looking for the truth.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery - We have much detailed information about this famous historical event transcribed in our Messages Archives here.  Since Tnwoods does not give any credence to "copied and pasted" documentation, I'll let her read it for herself but not in our group.  

Yeah....about that free blog-spot you keep posting about...how many other conspiracy theorists contribute to those Message Archives...and do you  think message board postings validate a statement or is considered a reliable source?

Now, TNwoods, back to my ignore list so that you can do your homework.  
 

This is so childish, and is not necessary in an adult conversation   

No worries,  I am being ignored     

You know in my search I found another book with the same story, using your Brownwood Mason book as a source.  I would bet if we looked in the back of your Brownwood book, it would list the novel as it's source as well, or something that would lead to it eventually.  Since a nearly identical tale pops up everywhere.

But since you are ignoring me, I am convinced that you will not look in the back of the book and see what the source material is.  Because to do so you would have to read this post.  Of course if by chance you do look in the back, I would sure be interested.

Cheers

http://www.cemeteries-of-tx.com/Wtx/ElPaso/cemetery/Concordia.html

Hello - that is the readers digest version from the 1935 novel.  I know this happens a whole lot with outlaws and their legends.  A lot of stories from novels over time have become the "historical" fact.  And it makes it even harded to get to the truth or any given outlwa one might be looking up.

I still hold the Sheriff report from Webb's death would is probably the most accurate, as it was written from their records.  It does not list Hardin as the suspect, and in fact says the Rangers killed the suspect in Pencecola.  Not that they arrested him in 1977 for it, like the tale goes.

When a story is almost word for word in every version, it usually came for a single source.  If anyone knows of a pre 1935 source I would very much appreciate it.  Old newspaper maybe?  Shooting a sheriff would have been big news at the time.

       

Don't worry Texas jay, I'm doing the work for you on this one

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9904E5DA1F3BE532A2575BC2A96E9C946690D7CF

You Mr Webb according to this was shot by Hardin.

Which makes me ask why the Sheriff report says the shooter was killed by the Rangers, which Hardin was not, and don't mention Hardn as the culprit.

See, that is all you had to do.

I still have doubts due to the discrepancies, between the paper and the Sheriff's, but I'll give you that point

See how reasonable I am, you can take me off ignore now.

But I am still curious about your Henrey Ford.  How is he KGC?

You have a problem with the newspapers - because different newpapers of the times STILL have different stories.  Some say Selman (a constable, by the way, not a sheriff), outdrew him, some say he came up behind him and shot him.  Same time period newspapers, different stories.

So, which version do you want to believe?

B

The archives have a few things, too.


http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=1346

B

LOL - yes I know - them old papers get a lot of things mixed up, get names mixed up - but it is still the closest to the source as you can usually get.  That is why I am still not 100% convinced, but am conceding the point none the less.  I have read some crazy stuff from back then that turned out to be a total fabrication in a local paper, yet got picked up by the Times. But I am not that interested in Brownwood, so I don't forsee me looking into it any more.

Some say Selman (a constable, by the way, not a sheriff), outdrew him, some say he came up behind him and shot him.  Same time period newspapers, different stories.

I'm betting he shot him in the back - but that doesn't make your constable look very heroic.

What I can't figure is how this young Sheriff Webb, what 21 at death, factors into the KGC, nor this Henry Ford of Brownwood.   Neither of them have come up in anything I've seen anywhere outside of Texas Jay's posts.

Maybe Texas Jay will take my off his ignore list long enough to enlighten me.  Study I will!

For anyone who has not seen this or would like to see it again this program is going to be rebroadcast on the History Channel on Wednesday, November 25 at 8am and 2pm est.

Jesse James' Hidden Treasure
"By the time Jesse James was killed in 1882, he'd stolen over a million and a
half dollars according to some estimates--gold, coins and cash that could be
worth over $50 million today. History often paints James as a clever outlaw who
stole money to finance a lavish criminal lifestyle, a man whose sixteen year
long crime spree came to a dramatic halt in 1882 when a fellow gang member
betrayed him and shot him dead in the back of the head. But now, a treasure hunt
may reveal a totally new story. Was Jesse really stealing for himself, or was he
actually secreting away large sums of wealth, in order to finance one of the
most clandestine secret societies in American history? Follow a team of treasure
hunters searching for where he stashed his riches... and a new truth about Jesse
James. Their discoveries may not only re-write the history of why Jesse stole,
it could also raise new questions about his death."
Rating: TVPG
Running Time: 120 minutes
http://www.history.com/

Wednesday, November 25 08:00 AM
Wednesday, November 25 02:00 PM


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Knights_of_the_Golden_Circle/

For those who haven't seen it - and want to - I suggest you record it.

This way, you can go back and watch the "little" things in the film - the "we assume" and the "it has to be's", because the film does have its share of "assumptions" - of course, there has to be some assumptions, since we, nor the people who made the film, were not there at the time Old Jesse
was living his life.

History is really sooooo interesting.


B

Interview with J. Frank Dalton   
Link to site:
http://knights-of-the-golden-circle.podomatic.com/entry/2009-12-07T17_24_32-08_00

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Knights_of_the_Golden_Circle