The Jesse James KGC Connection on History Channel

Well I just viewed the History channel's program about the treasures of Jesse James and found it to be quite interesting and provocative.

The KGC connection seemed to be unmistakable and undeniable. Seems like history's account of Jesse James death may have to have another look as well.


GG~

Well I just viewed the History channel's program about the treasures of Jesse James and found it to be quite interesting and provocative.

The KGC connection seemed to be unmistakable and undeniable. Seems like history's account of Jesse James death may have to have another look as well.

GG~

Unmistakable and undeniable? We must not have watched the same show. These are the same theories that have been hashed out for years by the Jesse James / KGC conspiracy theorists.

Seems to me like they presented more evidence for the KGC connection than the naysayers have against it.
I will view it again later to see if I missed something.  

GG~


* After reviewing the program, I will, in deference to SWR, change my choice of words to:

"The KGC connection seemed to be remarkable and compelling."

  Just watched it, myself; probably will be a DVD in a few days on history.com/shop.
SWR, oh ye of LITTLE faith, tunnel-vision, selective reading of selective history.   How childish of ye...
 

Actually SWR I thought all told it was a good story...until..the rather "Gee..is that a gold bar? Hmm?"

I myself would have jumped as high as the tree...

Then the 'end'..(lol)  "we need funding..." I almost choked on my popcorn.

   Wasn't JUST the "funding"... WINTER is approaching; MAY be a HARD, COLD, BRUTAL WINTER;
DUNNO.   

 Some good shots of carvings and interesting history .
 Ending :
 BULL ! I have moved more dirt and then tons of rock in my back yard with the help of my 8 year old
grandson with hand tools and a farm tractor ... Just to landscape !!
 That little 'hoptoad' could turn over the world if they wanted to work it instead of generating another
TV show .
 I felt that I could have spent my time better watching 2 episodes of NCIS on another channel .

I wonder when the show was taped? ........perhaps last year?

GG~

Was a very good show. Leaves a lot of questions to be answered. I'd still like to know what was under that hill at the end of the show.

While I always like to see stuff on Jessie James, I as a member of the James family, think bob ford did kill Jessie that day. However, there will always be speculation in regards to the KGC. Maybe one day we will all know the truth. And as the saying goes..."come ride with us"

Matt James
(aka) swiftfan

While I always like to see stuff on Jessie James, I as a member of the James family, think bob ford did kill Jessie that day. However, there will always be speculation in regards to the KGC. Maybe one day we will all know the truth. And as the saying goes..."come ride with us"

Matt James
(aka) swiftfan

What he said, Matt James of the James Family.

HH
TnMtns

I thought it was a great show. Yes I would have jumped about 10 feet high when I uncovered the mason jar cache and the gold bar! Also I thought the facial recognition technology was pretty amazing. The "dirty little coward" Bob Ford caught a lot of grief over the assasination, wouldn't he have confessed it wasn't really Jesse?

Tygr

I enjoyed the program but thought the ending was unrealistic.
How many of us would dig down to within 8' of a target....and then just leave it?
It ain't happening!

Timberwolf

I watched the show and part was believeable and parts were far fetched.  my question is? Was there Sentinels out there guarding large caches of gold and coins?  We know Jesse james robbed a ton of banks.  what happened to all his loot.  Has very much of it been found?  if not it still has to be out there.  in that time period a lot of people buried there money instead of putting it in the banks because they didn't trust banks. 

but is the sentinels part true?  wasn't there such a thing as the KGC. 

I have a question for you all---What was the reference to the "Paw Paws" in the show?  I didn't get in on the first part of the show, but my mom did and was asking me about that part.    Was this some kind of political group that had connections to the KGC?
I really liked the show, though it did leave a lot unfinished.  When I hit the info on my remote for the show it said it was a "Series/Special", so I guess there will be more of these?
sandcreek

Hi sandcreek.  The Paw Paw Militia was mentioned once during the program that I recall in a quote from a book about the War.  The Paw Paws were supposed to be Union soldiers but many of them in Missouri were also Knights of the Golden Circle.  The Paw Paws were often Southern men who were forced to join the Missouri (Union) militias and were often accused of being friendly to the Confederate Guerrillas in that state.
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery   

If any one missed the show it will come on again Saturday 5 pm est.

   THANKS, TP; will check my "local listings", and watch it again.   ALSO "posted"
on TN by location - KANSAS "child-board"... wanna see a dig cam "pic" of the ciphers on THE WALL.
  (WASSAIL!) 

I pointed out something on the other thread on this subject and no one responded.  So, I'll ask again.  Didn't anyone else notice that large, triangle-shaped rock that the diggers placed the bits and pieces of the rusted jar lid on?  It looked to be about 12" to 15" on a side and was covered in a layer of fresh soil. 

A "Pointer stone"?  and they moved it from the hole.   But, I suppose if Pastore is as smart as he thinks he is, maybe it was a convienently "ignored find".

I enjoyed the program but thought the ending was unrealistic.
How many of us would dig down to within 8' of a target....and then just leave it?
It ain't happening!

Timberwolf

No kidding, stop at 8 ft. WHAT THE..Get the dynamite out !!

Hi sandcreek.  The Paw Paw Militia was mentioned once during the program that I recall in a quote from a book about the War.  The Paw Paws were supposed to be Union soldiers but many of them in Missouri were also Knights of the Golden Circle.  The Paw Paws were often Southern men who were forced to join the Missouri (Union) militias and were often accused of being friendly to the Confederate Guerrillas in that state.
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery   

Thanks Texas Jay!
regards,
sandcreek

Hi Shortstack.  Yes, I noticed that triangle-shaped rock sitting outside of the hole.  It was definitely a marker rock and I am as curious as you are about whether or not Pastore realized the significance of it and the position it was in.
~Texas Jay

I think it was undeniable,he lived a quite life to good old age,anyhow i am ready to find some more of the sentinels cache's they are out there,i am ready i get a lot of time off work so we need to team up and find the rest of them.or the KGC treasure stash i know its out there.

   Ss, TJ... It is a "pointer rock"... HOPEFULLY, NOT moved.   The way I understand it is, if it just "standing up", it is a "marker"; if it is "laying down", EAST to WEST orientation is for the "bottom straight line" between two points... go in the direction of the third point... USUALLY,
NORTH! HA!  I WILL watch the "show" again this Saturday, as TxPirate said it was scheduled on the
History Channel for 5 pm/est; check yer "local listings".   (WASSAIL!)  

 Ss, TJ... It is a "pointer rock"... HOPEFULLY, NOT moved.   The way I understand it is, if it just "standing up", it is a "marker"; if it is "laying down", EAST to WEST orientation is for the "bottom straight line" between two points... go in the direction of the third point... USUALLY,
NORTH! HA!  I WILL watch the "show" again this Saturday, as TxPirate said it was scheduled on the
History Channel for 5 pm/est; check yer "local listings".   (WASSAIL!)  

I believe that the rock was covering the cache...a kgc thing....did you notice the tree the gold bar was dug from ...two trunked...a kgc thing....remember when they got three shallow signals around 7 feet apart... and didnt go back to them on camera....There was a reason....I believe that those were metal clues...part of the puzzle....the show did not in any way.... give any clue. on what to look for.. or how to decipher clues to locate a kgc site...this was intentional...(of course this shows intent was to show JJ connection to the KGC) I also find it hard to believe that in a area that has JJ carvings....That the area had not been detected before....Surely the locals knew about the carvings....Steve

Hi Steve.  Pastore did go back to the spots 7 feet apart and it showed the triangle rock on the side of one of the holes where they uncovered the corroded zinc mason jar lids but there were no coins remaining in them.  They stated that they thought these "paychecks" had already been cashed or, in other words, the Sentinel(s) had already drawn the money from them.  I agree with you that they did not give any explanation of the clues intentionally.  Pastore said he had studied the KGC and Confederate codes for years and yet pretended he didn't know what the carvings indicated.  I can't say that I blame him for that.  His "anonymous backers" probably would have choked on their coffee if he had given too much information on how to read the signs.  They don't want too much competition for future sites.  They possibly did give one clue away.  Did you notice the helicopter in the show?  Perhaps the Kansas location is not the only place these "anonymous backers" have their "eyes" on.   
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

Hi Steve.  Pastore did go back to the spots 7 feet apart and it showed the triangle rock on the side of one of the holes where they uncovered the corroded zinc mason jar lids but there were no coins remaining in them.  They stated that they thought these "paychecks" had already been cashed or, in other words, the Sentinel(s) had already drawn the money from them.  I agree with you that they did not give any explanation of the clues intentionally.  Pastore said he had studied the KGC and Confederate codes for years and yet pretended he didn't know what the carvings indicated.  I can't say that I blame him for that.  His "anonymous backers" probably would have choked on their coffee if he had given too much information on how to read the signs.  They don't want too much competition for future sites.  They possibly did give one clue away.  Did you notice the helicopter in the show?  Perhaps the Kansas location is not the only place these "anonymous backers" have their "eyes" on.  
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

Thanks Texas Jay...Your are correct...my bad...I had almost polished off a bottle of wine by the end of the show lol...Steve

Still wondering how they know the writing in the rock walls is KGC code. The KGC was infiltrated by Union spies and the KGC code is in the Bickley Papers at NARA. None of what I saw even looked close.

I have to agree with SWR.  I saw and heard a lot of innuendo about the KGC, but absolutely no proof, and a whole lot of assumptions.

The coins they found (the gold one, in particular) was too new to even be part of the deal, and since it was with the silver dollars, they probably had nothing to do with it, either.

Also, believe it or not - I think there were just too darned many carvings of "JJ" - I just think if there were all those signs of treasures, many a person back then could and would, have figured it out.  It just doesn't wash.

It was interesting, though.

B

Since Frank James was pardoned, I wonder if he recovered any of the buried loot?
Maybe he was pardoned for a cut.

As far as the KGC goes. I doubt they are still thinking about financing a civil war, so I wonder why they never recovered their stashes.
Or did they?

GG~

Corornados Children, page 300,pub.date 1931, has imformation about Frank James looking for a $2million dollar deposit he made in the ground along the old road between Fort Still and the Keeche Hills,in the Wichitias.
He never was able to locate. Maybe what Pastore is looking for. Saw the show also,with a backhow like they had,they easily coulda dug the scanned box up. 

Hi Steve.  Pastore did go back to the spots 7 feet apart and it showed the triangle rock on the side of one of the holes where they uncovered the corroded zinc mason jar lids but there were no coins remaining in them.  They stated that they thought these "paychecks" had already been cashed or, in other words, the Sentinel(s) had already drawn the money from them.  I agree with you that they did not give any explanation of the clues intentionally.  Pastore said he had studied the KGC and Confederate codes for years and yet pretended he didn't know what the carvings indicated.  I can't say that I blame him for that.  His "anonymous backers" probably would have choked on their coffee if he had given too much information on how to read the signs.  They don't want too much competition for future sites.  They possibly did give one clue away.  Did you notice the helicopter in the show?  Perhaps the Kansas location is not the only place these "anonymous backers" have their "eyes" on.   
~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

Really? You're serious about this? Pastore couldn't find his ass with both hands and when he said he couldn't read the signs, that was about the only truthful thing out of his mouth during the whole show! They intentionally didn't explain the clues symbols because they don't have any idea how to and some of the symbols are just carving left behind by people who just wanted to mark up the stone. They have been leaving carvings out there since the beginning of time.

The mason jar lids they found are from parties that were held on the property. This land was used by the indians, civil war soldeirs and many others since the 1800's as a spot to ornight and to pik-nik. That wasn't mentioned by Pastore because he didn;t bother to do his research. The land never was owned by anybody associated with Susan James or anybody else inthe James family. That is all BS and can be verified by looking at the publicly available county records.

As for Frank James, he traveled to Oklahoma and lived there for many years after the trial and during that time he looked for several treasure he and Jesse left behind and even recovered a few.

Get a grip guys. If you want to believe in the KGC myths then that's your perogative but how can you watch a show like this and not realize the "found" treasures weren't plants?

   CIPHERS? VIRGA AUREA "Google" it...  
 THEN... http://www.levity.com/alchemy/images/virga_aurea2.gif  

The best part of the "special" IMHO was the pics of the carvings.  The first thing I, and my better half, noticed was that many of the carvings are also at my site!  I even spoke with Bill Williams after the show and during the second running of it, and he asked if I had seen certain carvings in the show that are at my site (which he pointed out to me btw).

As for the coins, they looked too clean to have been dug at the time of shooting the video.  The jar seemed to have been broken and the coins supposedly in the dirt.  I have dug coins to where I didn't know what they were until I came home, washed them off and used my electrolysis cleaning contraption on them.  Others that weren't so dirty, it was still hard to make out the dates.  Personally, I believe those few coins were "planted"!

I agree with Truckinbutch - If I was able to take a backhoe to the site and was that close, I would NOT quit!  Heck, if the terrain was not so rough where my site is and I could get a backhoe to the "vault", I would have had the entrance destroyed by now or a new one made - it just takes a lot longer with your hands and hammers and chisels to get through tons of solid rock - the way we have had to work it!

The one "believable" thing about what was found was the Gold bar.  Bill Williams had told me that those trees (with the squirrel holes at the bottom) were used by the KGC to leave small caches or signs.  Personally, I believe the small Gold bar was left as a sign that Gold bars are cached.  Of course, the hard part is one would have to know how to follow all of the signs to find the larger cache of Gold bars!

Scott

Personally, I believe the small Gold bar was left as a sign that Gold bars are cached.  Of course, the hard part is one would have to know how to follow all of the signs to find the larger cache of Gold bars!

Scott

Exactly!!!

I'm sure Pastore controlled as much of that as possible. This show was more about him than anything else. He has an agreement (or at least did the last thing I knew) with the James family that was featured on the show. That is the only reason you saw them on the show to begin with. That's his "in" to the world of Jesse James.

cough cough is right! 

Hey Guys,
Anybody know what kind of watch/compass he was using?
I kinda like the setup, instead of those digital jobs.

Looks a little like a Timex Expedition type band with the red mark @ north, but those aren't 2 piece with the swivel out analog watch over compass.
Any ideas?

Ron

I believe the watch was some model of Tag Hauer. I also think that was total BS that they needed bigger equipment to dig down to the possible cache! Not sure how many have run a mini-ex before, but you can go just about as deep as you want as long as you plan your excavation! I MIGHT allow that these guys don't know squat about how to properly excavate but then again, why stop so close to the goal? I'd have finished the job with a dang HAND TROWEL if I thought I was that close to real treasure!

thanks Pyledriver

Alec has given his opinion of the KGC for years.  Doesn't believe they hid any treasure.  Then I'm very surprised to hear that he actually went and hunted for this non-existent KGC treasure with Pastore for a couple months!  Why are you hunting for treasure you don't think exists?!  He shows obvious KGC symbols on his blog yet calls them outlaw.  Like where did all these outlaws come from???  They used similar symbols and buried markers/clues like the KGC?  I think these "naysayers" have an agenda for all the KGC negativity...
Boattow

Boattow,

At the time I was working with Pastore I hadn't yet come to my senses about the KGC myths. Even so, there wasn't and isn't anything out there that ties the spot to the KGC. Is it a KGC treasure because a lier and con man like Pastore says so? That's a pretty big reach to prove a point. You might as well be quoting Howk. Way too many holes in that story for anybody to rely on anything from it as proof or actual research.

Obvious KGC symbols? I didn't realize there was a book of KGC symbols out there that identified KGC symbols from outlaw symbols or any other for that matter. I've never said the KGC didn't hide "any" treasure, just that I don't believe in the mega million depositories like everyone talks about.

The symbols shown on the blog have been proven to be what they are described. Not from some fantasy world but from actually working the symbols and doing research as to who was in the area and when.

Agenda? Oooh, I know, all of us naysayers are actually KGC sentinels guarding a big depository each so we decided to band together and stop everyone from looking for our treasures just by putting some information on the internet. Watch out for those black helicopters! 

Alec, the helicopter that buzzed us was white with blue block letters saying "PATROL" painted on both sides of the belly.  The pilot was about 60 years old with short gray hair.  I have never said that the modern "watchers" of the possible depository sites were KGC-appointed Sentinels.  I strongly believe they are a combination of well-funded treasure hunters and high-ranking Masons who know just enough to be potentially dangerous but not enough to retrieve the depository treasures themselves so they rely on the work of those of us who are actually doing the field work to lead them to the precise locations so they can steal it.  I'd sure like to hear more of the reasons you were working with Pastore.  "Two months" seems like a long time to search for something you don't believe exists.   
~Texas Jay

Actually I answered that question in another thread on here somewhere. That was ten years ago back when I didn't know any better and believed the depository myths myself. It was also before I did any research to verify the information Pastore told me about the site. Once I started researching the property, the area (and Pastore) it became clear that this site wasn't what he said it was. I was connected to Pastore's little group for about 9 weeks during which time I made about five trips to the site itself with him and his group. The rest of the time I spent researching and determining he was full of crap. Between that and the way he presented himself I bailed rather quickly. It was about one year later that I had enough research on the KGC to change the way I thought about their alleged treasures.

That site has nothing to do with the KGC as far as I can tell. Could someone who was a member of the group have walked on the property? Sure. Did the KGC leave treasure behind there? No, not in my opinion. I'm no slouch at interpreting symbols and I don't believe anything on the site is connected to any large group from the Civil War. Any "cash shays" that are still out there are outlaw in nature. It was obvious on day one of my search that there had been lots of activity on the property. The carvings told me there was treasure there, at least at one time.

The history of the property tells a very good story. Had Pastore done his research instead of making up stuff to fit his theory he would have been better off and maybe he even could have found a real treasure.

Believe it or pretend not to believe it.  That's your choice.  I have been a treasure hunter for 40 years and discovered a couple of the locations and their signs we are now working at over 25 years ago, before I even knew the KGC existed.  I, my partner, and others on this forum do not have to "prove" anything to you or anyone else.  It has nothing to do with paranoia as I have no fear whatsoever of these "watchers".  Everything I said is documented and can and will be proven in a court of law if that is ever necessary.  SWR, I've got much better things to do than to play your petty information-gathering games so don't expect any more replies from me to your silly, insulting messages.
~Texas Jay       

Wow what a great show on the History channel,I bet everyone wants to go out and buy a metal detector now.

Hello from Texas!  New member here.....been following all these threads for awhile, and it's all very interesting!  I am no expert by any means, but one thing I did notice on the History Channel program, was the fact that when they did recover those coins, the guy was rubbing the coins with dirt on them....trying to read a date off them. Now, from what i've read on here and elsewhere, you are not supposed to rub them this way, because you may scratch the coin....possibly reducing the value of the coin. Am I wrong here?   

Hello from Texas!  New member here.....been following all these threads for awhile, and it's all very interesting!  I am no expert by any means, but one thing I did notice on the History Channel program, was the fact that when they did recover those coins, the guy was rubbing the coins with dirt on them....trying to read a date off them. Now, from what i've read on here and elsewhere, you are not supposed to rub them this way, because you may scratch the coin....possibly reducing the value of the coin. Am I wrong here?   

Nope ! You show more sense than the jerk doing the rubbing 

I must be doing something wrong. I've been on dozens of actual treasure sites and not once have I been shadowed or buzzed by a helicopter. I'm waiting for that day though, so I'll have a good story to tell. I did have a farmer drive up the other day and check on me because we were in a vehicle he didn't recognize. Does that count?

I've hunted with Alec and I can verify that he's no slouch on reading signs and symbols. You can also take him at his word. I don't trust many people but he is one guy I wouldn't mind watching my back. His one great fault is that he did believe in the KGC mega caches at one time. LOL. Nobody's perfect though.

I think I'm the only treasure hunter out there who hasn't seen the show, but thankfully a friend of mine recorded it and I'll finally be up to speed. I can say that if you have ever dug up a mason jar that has been buried for any length of time you don't just unscrew the top and take out the money. It takes work to get the lid off. It's easier to just break the jar. If there were jar lids found that money had already been taken from, then where were the jars?

According to Ganis in the 1879 photo of the James Gang at the barrell factory shows Frank James and Lorenzo giving the KGC sign of greeting. Anyone know where he got this information? We have the signs, grips, tokens, and passwords of the KGC, OAK, and the SOL from the exposes done in the 1860s but none of them match. It is close to the sign members made when they entered the castle but its not the same. Anyone have his book?

What about the other people in that photo? Lots of them had their arms crossed and different fingers folded back, were they giving some secret sign too? They didn't mention them because then it would point out how stupid that theory was.

Discovery Channel ‘Ghost Lab’ in Enid to look for spirit of John Wilkes Booth

By Kasey Fowler, Staff Writer
Stars of a Discovery Channel television show are in Enid searching for the ghost of John Wilkes Booth.
http://www.enidnews.com/localnews/l...ory_240002434.html?keyword=topstory
Brad and Barry Klinge, stars of “Ghost Lab,” along with their investigative team, Everyday Paranormal, came to Garfield Furniture to search for the presidential assassin, ac-cording to Alan Lagarde, one of the executive producers of “Ghost Lab,” which will air this fall. Their investigation started Thursday and continues today.

“We are conducting a paranormal investigation,” Lagarde said. “This episode is related to the possible ghost of John Wilkes Booth.”

According to local legend, a man claiming to be Booth died in the Grand Avenue Hotel, which now houses Garfield Furniture.

David E. George, a house painter from Texas who frequently quoted at length from Shakespeare’s plays in Enid bars, ingested strychnine, a powerful poison, on Jan. 13, 1903, in one of the hotel’s up-stairs rooms and died writhing in agony.

Before he breathed his last, he told a physician who had been summoned to the hotel he really was Booth, the assassin who killed President Abraham Lincoln 38 years earlier. The owner of Pen-niman’s Funeral Parlor kept the unclaimed remains and would tie the embalmed and fully dressed body to a rocking chair and display it in the storefront window with a newspaper laying across its lap.

For a number of years the body was displayed at amusement parks and carnival sideshows in many states, before finally disappearing.

The Klinges brought their “ghost lab,” a 24-foot car hauler capable of providing 200,000 watts of electricity to Enid. It contains audio, video and photo analysis stations; flat screen televisions; an interactive touch screen smart board; surveillance video cameras capable of shooting 300 feet away in total darkness with 180 degree peripheral view; temperature/ humidity/dew point data loggers; various digital cameras, including thermal imaging cameras and audio recorders; and more than 8,000 feet of video cable.

This on-site, high-tech lab enables investigators to analyze data on the premises in real-time, helping them to more narrowly focus their investigations on known paranormal hot spots.

“They are a pretty high-tech group. We bring an investigative science lab with us on the road. They can talk to the people in the lab when they are inside. They can get their footage back to lab immediately,” Lagarde said. “They have thermal imaging and electrostatic equipment. They have monitoring systems that monitor the entire time they are here. It will monitor things like moisture, temperature and movement.”

Besides the technology, the group will try to have items to help the ghost feel more comfortable.

“They will be in there and they reach out to the possible spirits in there,” Lagarde said. “They will have specific things that might be familiar to the ghost, or they might speak to them as if they are in the era of the ghost.”

The Klinges also may try to simply speak to the ghost, but, according to Lagarde, people may not be able to hear if the ghost responds.

“When a ghost tries to respond it may come back in a frequency you can’t hear with your ear; it may be in a frequency that only a recorder can get,” he said. “A normal person may not hear it right away, but when the background noise is taken out pretty amazing things can happen.”

Lagarde said the owners of Garfield Furniture and others in the community have been friendly and helpful.

“The people at Garfield Furniture, they were very friendly and hospitable and this came together very quickly, in the last few weeks,” he said. “When we got the information and we found out, we wanted to do it. We were in Dallas and we figured that was the closest we are going to be to Enid. People have been really friendly and receptive, from booking hotels and setting up food, and the owners of the store have been fantastic.”

Some of the locations the Klinge brothers will investigate on “Ghost Lab” are: Tombstone, Ariz., home to some of the most violent deaths in history and a hotbed of paranormal activity; Shreveport (La.) Auditorium, where Elvis got his start and may not have left the building; and Granbury Opera House where, according to legend, Booth changed his name to John St. Helen and performed Shakespeare after assassinating Lincoln.

The new 13-part “Ghost Lab” will premiere 9 p.m. Oct. 6 on Discovery Channel.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Knights_of_the_Golden_Circle/

That episode played a few nights ago and they got a noise that they kept claiming was saying, "I am John Wilkes Boothe".  But, it sounded more like a wavering sound.  Hell, I've heard a guitar player make his electric guitar "talk" plainer than that. 

These 2 brothers come across like a couple of beatnik bikers playing around.  They seem to put more effort into "proving" a ghost than in really looking for anything else that could explain the situation.  And their high-tech trailer is truly overkill.

I'll watch them if there's nothing else on TV, but TAPS is still the real deal as far as I'm concerned.

Alec, the helicopter that buzzed us was white with blue block letters saying "PATROL" painted on both sides of the belly.  The pilot was about 60 years old with short gray hair.  I have never said that the modern "watchers" of the possible depository sites were KGC-appointed Sentinels.  I strongly believe they are a combination of well-funded treasure hunters and high-ranking Masons who know just enough to be potentially dangerous but not enough to retrieve the depository treasures themselves so they rely on the work of those of us who are actually doing the field work to lead them to the precise locations so they can steal it.  I'd sure like to hear more of the reasons you were working with Pastore.  "Two months" seems like a long time to search for something you don't believe exists.   
~Texas Jay

What exactly is a high ranking Mason?

Notice I said "According to Ganis", I don't believe the KGC existed after the war. I'm just curious to see what Ganis' evidence is about that being a KGC sign. If it is a sign it doesn't match any of the known KGC signs.

There are people in this forum that believe there are masons higher than the 3rd degree master mason, they don't realize a Scottish Rite 33rd degree mason or a York Rite Templar is not higher.

   Shortshack... AGREE!  W. C., the 3rd degree Master Mason IS the highest; without it, you can't be RAM, KT, SR,  33rd, or SHRINE. 

Exactly my point, but some on here think there is a higher "rank" . And the "higher ranking" Masons are trying to start a NWO for the Antichrist or whatever by stealing vast sums of "lost treasures" that someone else spent years and thousands of dollars researching to finance the takeover. Yet couldn't find there own ass with both hands. So what are they saying about us "lower ranking" Masons? The Master Masons, or 3rd degree. That we are soldiers in the Antichrist's army, but are of such low intelligence that we couldn't find our ass with both hands, two mirrors and a helper? Every damn conspiracy theory that comes down the pike, from hiding the holy grail and the ark of the covenant, to the french revolution to JFK,s assassination to 911 to the recession we are in now and everything in between has the Masons involved at the heart of it. I for one am sick of hearing it. From now on, before you start bashing us or trying to somehow tie us into your little conspiracy theory, how about checking into being brought from darkness into light? You just might learn someting about yourself and maybe a little about some of those mysterious symbols that seems so important to the treasures that you seek. I am a Mason and proud to be a member of the craft.

 A PROUD MASON

Exactly where did I say I didnt believe anything about the KGC or any other treasure?

Or is that just your conspiracy theorist thought process trying to read soomething into my post that just isnt there?

Hmmmmm........Looks like a conspiracy to me


 A PROUD MASON

Wow, this is entertaining...... I haven't read a debate this hot since the Beekrock threads.   

Again with the conspiracy theorist thought process, side stepping the question as usual. I will ask again, s-l-o-w-l-y so you can follow, Exactly.....where....in....my....post....did....I ....say....I....didn't....believe.....there.....was....a.....KGC.....t reasure.....or....any.....other.....for....that.. ..matter...?

And to answer your question, neither.First relax, close your eyes take a deep breath, or two and get the conspiracy theory thought process out of your head then click on the profile link to the left. If that doesn't clear it up for you, you didn't clear your mind first. Go back to step one and start over.


A PROUD MASON

Most of my heroes have been masons. Such as Washington, Franklin, Revere, Lafayette, Audie Murphy, Sam Houston, Davey Crockett, William Travis, Gen. Macarthur,  John Wayne, etc....

I am researching the masonic connection with the KGC. I took a list of known KGC from the Texas castles to the Grand Lodge of Texas to see how many were masons. The results were that most were not, although 2 KGC members became Grandmasters of Texas. General George Bickley in a prison letter from the doctor treating his wife is alluded to as a brother mason but I have searched Texas, Ohio, Virginia and Florida for his masonic record and no one has him in their returns or indexes.

Last year I signed a application for a young boy to get treatment for no charge at the Scottish Rite Childrens Hospital, thats why I became a mason many years ago. To help people when they need it.

Most of my heroes have been masons. Such as Washington, Franklin, Revere, Lafayette, Audie Murphy, Sam Houston, Davey Crockett, William Travis, Gen. Macarthur,  John Wayne, etc....

I am researching the masonic connection with the KGC. I took a list of known KGC from the Texas castles to the Grand Lodge of Texas to see how many were masons. The results were that most were not, although 2 KGC members became Grandmasters of Texas. General George Bickley in a prison letter from the doctor treating his wife is alluded to as a brother mason but I have searched Texas, Ohio, Virginia and Florida for his masonic record and no one has him in their returns or indexes.

Last year I signed a application for a young boy to get treatment for no charge at the Scottish Rite Childrens Hospital, thats why I became a mason many years ago. To help people when they need it.


Excellent post As I said in my earlier post, they might want to check into being brought from darkness into light. You just might learn something about yourself. Somethings you just cant learn from books bought from eBay, regardless of how extensive your library is.

A PROUD MASON

Let me suggest you read "Freemasonry In Brownwood" by Donovan Duncan Tidwell and read the records of the Brownwood Lodge exactly as they were entered in the late 1800s.  I read and took notes from this rare book several years ago so, if anyone does find one for sale on eBay, you should grab it up.  Hint: Capt. Jason W. James (Jesse and Frank James' first cousin, former Quantrill Guerrilla, and Texas Ranger), Charles M. Webb (made Master Mason in just a few short months in Brownwood, served as a Brown County Sheriff's Deputy, killed by John Wesley Hardin in Comanche in 1874), and Henry Ford (I'll let you look up this KGC member's biography for yourselves). 
I've never said anything bad about the Masons as a whole.  I admit they do some very important work.  I just want to know why some are so terribly interested in the KGC sites we're working on if they agree with MasterMason, Alec, and other naysayers who contend there is no treasure on these sites.  Not being an insider, I don't know what degree one of our stalkers is but I do know the license plate numbers on his fancy silver/blue sports car and his Escalade.   
~Texas Jay

Walker Colt,

I wonder if John Wayne is listed on the Masonic rolls.








Or could it be Marion Morrison?

Article from Scottish Rite Magazine

EXCELLENT, Walker Colt.  That you for this posted article.   

Hint: Capt. Jason W. James (Jesse and Frank James' first cousin, former Quantrill Guerrilla, and Texas Ranger)

Now your just being silly, Capt Jason James was never a member of Quantrills Raiders.  A good conspiracy is one thing, but at least have the facts straight - or it makes all your points look suspect.

Or are all the facts coming from the black bible?

I swear, I've been reading Bible passage number from every book in the Bible that are all at one site -
just how is the "finder" supposed to know which book which passage is from that he is supposed to know?  Seems they would all be from the same book to me.  I am also curious how Solomon's folks hid a great treasure using Bible passages as clues, when the Bible had not been written yet?

But it seems common sense and logic fly out the door when the KGC are concerned.

Pastore's show, while entertaining - was nothing but rehashed BS.  

I have HB's book too - it was fun to read, but no one is going to find any treasure vaults using it, or else one of you would have by now.  I have also heard tales of truck loads of treasure found in TX, from a friend, who heard it from a friend.  As sincere as he is, he only heard of it, and doesn't know who "found it".  

I agree with Alec - Pastore couldn't find his ass with both hands.

Whoops - I know - first post after years of reading - I must be Alec/ SWR/Mastor Mason because I know the code phrase that is never used in general conversation.....

Gimmie a break.  Use your noggins.

[get real. The books that later made up the Bible were WRITTEN then.]

Tnwoods wrote: Whoops - I know - first post after years of reading - I must be Alec/ SWR/Mastor Mason because I know the code phrase that is never used in general conversation.....

Well, you'll certainly get no arguments on THAT statement.  As far as the Bible not being written in Soloman's time.........get real.  The books that later made up the Bible were WRITTEN then.  Sheeesh, SWR, get your facts straight! 

I hate to be a rainy day on a conspiracy parade, but as an example, these passages:

7:7 Two wagons and four oxen he gave unto the sons of Gershon, according to their service

JUDG 18:30 And the children of Dan set up the graven image: and Jonathan, the son of Gershom, the son of Manasseh, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of Dan until the day of the captivity of the land.

JUDG 18:31 And they set them up Micah's graven image, which he made, all the time that the house of God was in Shiloh

Are from the King James Bible, commissioned after King Jmaes was excommunicated by the Pope, which was definately after the time of Solomon,

Unless you are referring to the Hebrew Bible, or the original Old Testament, but then I do not think the passages would match.  And while the books that would become the Bible as we know it were being written, I don't believe they were all in one package at the time of Solomon.  Christ wasn't born for another 800 years.

Please clarify which Bible is being used

Your friends

The 5 books that make up the Torah were used by the theologians, compiling the Bible for King James, as the first 5 books of the Old Testament.  So, in effect, we're using BOTH bibles.  As far as the books of the Old Testament not being compiled is actually correct.  They were separate writings and not bundled as a single unit.  Their availability for use by Soloman and others is understandable because they all were written by people living in a area smaller that the state of Rhode Island.  Add the fact that Soloman pretty much got anything he wanted, why would you think he and his followers couldn't get those writings?  I mean, he was only the king.      As far as Christ not being born for another several hundred years; the prophets of the old testaments foretold the birth of The Christ back in Soloman's day.  As you SHOULD remember, Jesus told the Sanhedrin, "I am not come to change the laws, but to fulfill the prophets of old." 

Now, are you finished playing Biblical Scholar?  If not, then you should study a whole lot more before continuing. 

Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, I'm with you there.  But how does Judges fit into it?

I am just a curious guy

Let me suggest you read "Freemasonry In Brownwood" by Donovan Duncan Tidwell and read the records of the Brownwood Lodge exactly as they were entered in the late 1800s.  I read and took notes from this rare book several years ago so, if anyone does find one for sale on eBay, you should grab it up.  Hint: Capt. Jason W. James (Jesse and Frank James' first cousin, former Quantrill Guerrilla, and Texas Ranger), Charles M. Webb (made Master Mason in just a few short months in Brownwood, served as a Brown County Sheriff's Deputy, killed by John Wesley Hardin in Comanche in 1874), and Henry Ford (I'll let you look up this KGC member's biography for yourselves). 
I've never said anything bad about the Masons as a whole.  I admit they do some very important work.  I just want to know why some are so terribly interested in the KGC sites we're working on if they agree with MasterMason, Alec, and other naysayers who contend there is no treasure on these sites.  Not being an insider, I don't know what degree one of our stalkers is but I do know the license plate numbers on his fancy silver/blue sports car and his Escalade.   
~Texas Jay

Again please show me where I said a treasure didn't exist. You and the short one keep saying I said one doesn't exist. I never said that. What I did was rip your ass for basically saying the Masons were thieves and fools. Once again show where I said a treasure doesn't exist.

A PROUD MASON

Tnwoods:

I didn't make the choices of what writings to include in the compilation of the KJV of the Bible.  100 theologians, locked up and under the threat of death, made those decisions.  But, I think they may have thought the description of how God directed the establishment of the linage of Judges, from the Tribe chosen by Him; was important enough to include in James' book.  If you want my opinion, I think the Book of Jasher should have been include; since that book is mentioned by Joshua.  But, you know what they say about opinions.   

Master Mason / SWR. 

Texas Jay NEVER called Masons thieves and fools and neither did I.  Nor did we SUGGEST it.  You need to retract that NOW.  Your kind of twisted quotes and insinuations are not welcomed.

Nobody said you did little man, but both of you sure as hell keep saying I said there is no treasure.  FACT

Alec, the helicopter that buzzed us was white with blue block letters saying "PATROL" painted on both sides of the belly.  The pilot was about 60 years old with short gray hair.  I have never said that the modern "watchers" of the possible depository sites were KGC-appointed Sentinels.  I strongly believe they are a combination of well-funded treasure hunters and high-ranking Masons who know just enough to be potentially dangerous but not enough to retrieve the depository treasures themselves so they rely on the work of those of us who are actually doing the field work to lead them to the precise locations so they can steal it.  I'd sure like to hear more of the reasons you were working with Pastore.  "Two months" seems like a long time to search for something you don't believe exists.   
~Texas Jay

Just exactly what is this if "jay" didnt say it?

I have never said that the modern "watchers" of the possible depository sites were KGC-appointed Sentinels.  I strongly believe they are a combination of well-funded treasure hunters and high-ranking Masons who know just enough to be potentially dangerous but not enough to retrieve the depository treasures themselves so they rely on the work of those of us who are actually doing the field work to lead them to the precise locations so they can steal it

And no the statement stands

Hi SWR, glad to see you back

I rest my case......

A PROUD MASON

Or is that just your conspiracy theorist thought process trying to read soomething into my post that just isnt there?

Hmmmmm........Looks like a conspiracy to me


 A PROUD MASON

alec wrote that "Pastore couldn't find his ass with both hands."  Now YOU write something about someone not being able to find their own ass with both hands.  Now, there is absolutely NO WAY that 2 different people would use such unique phrases concerning a specific subject such as the KGC.  Not unless these were the same person trying to disguise themselves and represent themselves to be multiple members OR they are 2,or more, people sitting side-by-side in "war room" of sorts. 

So, which are you, SWR, and alec?  The same person, or co-conspirators?     Honest forum members would like to know.

SWR & alec are 2 different members.

Accusations like this arn't Productive to this or any Thread.

Please DON't Respond
to this

Just Take my word for it & Get back on Track.

JEFF

Master Mason / SWR. 

Texas Jay NEVER called Masons thieves and fools and neither did I.  Nor did we SUGGEST it.  You need to retract that NOW.  Your kind of twisted quotes and insinuations are not welcomed.

Hey Shortstack,

I am still very curious how one knows which book / passage / verse one is supposed to apply to any given set of numbers, gived that multiple books seem to be used at this site?

I do believe folks left pgaage numbers as clues, but it would only make sense if they were all form the same book.  Do y'all thumb thru til you find one that you think fits - or is there something there that tells you which book the passage is from?

Tnwoods.  You said:

"Now your just being silly, Capt Jason James was never a member of Quantrills Raiders.  A good conspiracy is one thing, but at least have the facts straight - or it makes all your points look suspect."

Captain Jason W. James wrote two books, one in 1910 and one in 1928.

From:
http://www.dsloan.com/Auctions/A19/item-james-jason-two-titles.html

"...In 1861 James enlisted with Kirtley’s troops to drive the Kansas Jayhawkers out of Missouri and rode with Quantrill, giving an officer’s eye-witness account of the Lawrence Massacre and Baxter Springs. During the latter part of the War, James served in Mississippi and Louisiana, and was one of the last officers to surrender (June 27, 1865).

     During Reconstruction in Louisiana James helped organize the “Ku Klux,” White Camelias, and Bulldozers (“we had to work in such a way that no evidence could be found against us”). He bluntly outlines the intimidation and violence, including deadly shootouts he and his men inflicted on white Republicans and their Black allies.  He herded sheep in Colorado Territory in 1874, and in 1883 drove a herd of cattle from Delhi, Louisiana, to Orange, Texas. He joined Gillespie’s Texas Rangers the following year assisting in the apprehension of murderers, horse and cattle thieves, and fence cutters. He later worked on the railroad in East Texas and Louisiana. In 1892 he relocated to Roswell, New Mexico, supervising the Roswell Land and Water Company. In a chapter on “Ranching in Texas,” James tells how in 1904 he purchased from Ranger Capt. James. B. Gillett the Altura Ranch in Brewster County (fourteen miles from Alpine, next to A. S. Gage’s ranch). He describes the transition from open-range to fenced ranching and the attendant violence. His rousing and frequently violent ventures conclude prosaically with chapters on his Masonic activities and boating and hunting on the Texas Gulf Coast..."


From: "Noted Guerrillas" by John N. Edwards, 1877 & 1976, page 211.

***

"Some savage combats were had generally throughout Lafayette county
in the early spring of 1863. James Sullivan was killed this spring.
He had lived near Dover for some time and was acquainted with the
country thoroughly. Brave, vindictive, cruel to an unusual degree,
he was capable of doing an immense amount of harm. Sometimes he was
a spy, sometimes a scout, and always an oppressor. Guiding a Federal
column one day into the hiding-places of the Guerrillas, William Fell
riddled him with buck-shot. Fell, Phil. Gatewood, Lex. James,
William Yowell, and Jason James were together in a water-melon patch
near James Hicklin's when Sullivan guided the Federals upon them.
Fell faced the whole force and fired in their very bosoms. Sullivan
and four others were killed, but especially was the death of Sullivan
the cause of much rejoicing. If he had lived Dover undoubtedly would
have been burnt, and the lives of many valuable citizens
sacrificed..."

Tnwoods, now that we have the "facts straight", I believe you owe me an apology and retraction.

~Texas Jay
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

[possible]

Hey Shortstack,

I am still very curious how one knows which book / passage / verse one is supposed to apply to any given set of numbers, gived that multiple books seem to be used at this site?

I do believe folks left pgaage numbers as clues, but it would only make sense if they were all form the same book.  Do y'all thumb thru til you find one that you think fits - or is there something there that tells you which book the passage is from?

Tnwoods,  I don't scan the Bible for treasure clues, nor do I coordinate codes and symbols with any Bible verses, so I'm not sure where you get the "y'all" business. 
Do I believe that it's possible that there's a tie in?  Yes.  I believe that it is quite possible. There is so much that we do not know about the history of the world for us to be very definitive on many points.  Heck, there is plenty of disagreement on the AGE of the earth, much less any agreements on the things humans have done and where they've been. 

I had a relative Quantrill's Raiders, he is mentioned in a lot of the books (and he wasn't related to anyone who later became infamous) and I have never seen any reference to Jason James as a member.  Being a family member of the James boys, I would think he would have been mentioned.

As a Bushwhacker,  - he would not have received a commission in the CSA.  They were  necessary evil, and not thought highly of by the command.

They were given the chance to join the CSA regulars as Privates, but most declined. 

Jason James's autobiographies make him look good, as an autobiography should.  Doesn't mean there is a lick of truth to it all, and unless it can be cross checked for accuracy, which this can't, it should not be given credit as gospel. 

John N. Edwards is not the best source for historical accuracy, as he was well known to exaggerate and embellish, and flat out lie.  Not to mention being a heavy drinker and good friend to the James Boys.

Shortstack, y'all is just a figure of speech - my Tennessee living coming though the keyboard, don't mean to offend.


A theory has to fit the facts, you can't rewrite the facts to fit a theory.

Tnwoods.  You have a lot to learn about the James family, the KGC, and the Civil War.  Like the other naysayers who never post sources supporting their "facts", I will ignore all future posts from you unless I receive and accept a sincere apology and a retraction.  I won't be holding my breath as I know who you are.   
~Texas Jay

Tnwoods.  

That "y'all"  did not offend me at all.  I was born and raised in Mississippi and use that word all of the time.  I was simply pointing out the inclusiveness of the word as used to group researchers using the Bible for code references.  

Texas Jay,

Since when does one need to apologize for having a difference of opinion?  Especially when the point of view I have is traceable in actual verifiable history?

And, you have no idea what I know about the James boys, the KGC, or astro physics for that matter, so that is a pretty broad statement that I have a lot to learn.  Seems you are actually telling me you are right and I am wrong, regardless of what the truth might be.

Little kids throw tantrums when people don't agree with them.  Grown ups try to prove their point of view with verifiable facts to sway opinion in their favor.

I am all for a good conspiracy, but the facts have to add up.  And you can't just pick and choose the facts as you go, using only ones that support your theory.

Guess I'll be on your ignore list.

Shortstack - all is good.  I think there are a lot of Biblical tie in's as well in certain sites.  I just can't see how some one can thumb through the Bible to find the passage they think fits in whatever book.  There would have to be a specific reason to look in a specific book.  And I find it hard to fathom multiple books would be in use at one site.

Texas J - I wasn't presenting any facts, I was questioning yours.  Hard to me to prove a non fact when you are the one stating things as fact.

I'm sure I could, but I don't have the time or the inclination to go through all my records to find evidence that your stated fact is incorrect.

I have a lot to learn about the Civil War - as we all do.  Anyone who says they know it all is pulling your leg.  You aren't pulling my leg are you?

Oh yeah, I'm on the ignore list.

On May 11, 1861, he enlisted in a company of Missouri State Guards (Confederate troops) commanded by Captain C. J. Kirtley.

That sounds correct, thank you SWR.

Actually, I think Capt. Jason W James was into embellishing his credentials a lot.  Here is a list of Texas Ranger Capt's from the beginning to the 1930's.

http://www.texasranger.org/ReCenter/Captains.pdf

Guess who's name isn't on it?  I know - part or the secrecy.

I don't believe I ever stated that Jason W. James was a captain in the Texas Rangers, did I?
~Texas Jay

Texas Jay,

Do you know where the photo of Bickley came from that Brewer put in Shadow of the Sentinel? Photo credit just says Brewer. Thanks for the help.

Walker Colt, wish I could help but I don't have that information.  I looked up the photo in my copy of "Rebel Gold" but it only had it marked as "8" with the caption underneath.  I checked the Acknowledgments and extensive bibliography for it too but was unable to locate it.  I can only assume, based on your information that says "Brewer", that it is in Bob Brewer's collection but that is only a guess. 

Ok, thanks for checking. I just think that man in the picture looks pretty old to be Bickley. Bickley died in his forties and this guy looks kinda old but prison is a hard life so it could be him. Wish we had a source.

I don't believe I ever stated that Jason W. James was a captain in the Texas Rangers, did I?

No sir you did not.  I was under the impression that CSA officers would keep their rank after the war when they joined the Rangers.  If I am mistaken, then I apologizes.  Please enlighten me.

In the spring of the following year young Jason James made a trip for another freighting firm, Cartwright and Jones, which took him to Fort Bridger. He spent the year of 1860 at his home in Waverly, Missouri. On May 11, 1861, he enlisted in a company of Missouri State Guards (Confederate troops) commanded by Captain C. J. Kirtley. Jason James served in some of the most important campaigns in Missouri, and Mississippi, and his services were outstanding and distinguished. He also served a tour of duty as recruiting officer in the State of Arkansas.[7]

When the war came to a close, Captain James and most of his men were on the Macon Ridge in Carroll Parish near Delhi. On June 27th, 1865, having been informed that all Confederate forces had surrendered, he went to Monroe alone and surrendered to Colonel William H. Dickie and secured paroles for himself and his men

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~lamadiso/articles/ward/chap09.htm

His tombstone lists him in the 6th CAV which was a regular CSA unit, not as State Guard

Capt Jason W. James     6th MO Cav

http://www.nm-scv.org/PageMill_Resources/CS_Military_BuriedNM.html

However -  he isn't listed in the soldier and sailor system of the civil war of regular CSA units.

Nor is he on the roster of the 6th CAV

http://www.missouridivision-scv.org/mounits/6mocav.htm

So he was a Captain in the State Guard, who wrote he rode with Quantrill, and also claimed he was in the 6th CAV.  But there is absolutely no evidence besides his writing to substantiate these claims.

I don't know, but I have some serious credibility issues with his war exploits. 

He writes he joined the rangers in 1884, which would have made him around 41 at the time.  Kind of old to be joining the Frontier Brigade, which was scaled down in 1885.

I have his book on disk somewhere - but I on't have time to fact check it all.  But it seems he embellished his history just a wee bit.

I've never said anything bad about the Masons as a whole.  I admit they do some very important work.  I just want to know why some are so terribly interested in the KGC sites we're working on if they agree with MasterMason, Alec, and other naysayers who contend there is no treasure on these sites.  Not being an insider, I don't know what degree one of our stalkers is but I do know the license plate numbers on his fancy silver/blue sports car and his Escalade.   
~Texas Jay
[/quote]

First off I would say you don't really have a KGC site. That doesn't mean there isn't treasure hidden in the area you are looking in but I highly doubt it has anything to do with the KGC. As for why somebody is interested in what you are doing, if a ranger is flying around in a helicopter they could just be curiosu as to what you are doing. Lots of nefarious types in the world that use public land for ilegal activites. Just because you get buzzed once or twice doesn't mean they are out to get you.

Maybe the guy in fancy sports car is another treasure hunter, maybe he owns the land you are wondering around on, maybe he's looking for a spot to take a hooker. Who knows? The fact you have seen a car at the spot you are looking can be relative to that spot. People get curious, people do their own thing. None of that means somebody is trying to steal your treasure from you.

This man was a Brownwood KGC leader?  He was killed at age 25, kind of youg to be a big shot.   Says nothing about being killed by John Wesley Hardin

Deputy Sheriff Charles Webb
Brown County Sheriff's Department
Texas
End of Watch: Tuesday, May 26, 1874

Biographical Info
Age: 25
Tour of Duty: Not available
Badge Number: Not available

Incident Details
Cause of Death: Gunfire
Date of Incident: Tuesday, May 26, 1874
Weapon Used: Handgun; .44 caliber
Suspect Info: Shot and killed

Deputy Charles Webb was shot and killed by a notorious outlaw wanted for murder, robbery, and cattle rustling. He had encountered the suspect outside of a local saloon and a gunfight ensued. Deputy Webb was able to shoot the man in the side before being shot in the head. As he fell two accomplices continued to shoot him.

The suspect was taken into custody, after being shot and wounded, by Texas Rangers outside of Pensacola, Florida. He was sentenced to 25 years but was pardoned by the Texas governor after serving only 16 years despite having murdered a reported 48 people. Following his release he became a lawyer, but was later shot and killed by a constable. The suspect's brother killed Kimble County Texas Deputy Sheriff John Turman in 1898.

Deputy Webb had previously served as a Texas Ranger and was a Mason. He was buried in Greenleaf Cemetery, in Brownwood, Texas.

Related Line of Duty Deaths

http://www.odmp.org/officer/13915-deputy-sheriff-charles-webb

Henry Ford - I have no idea how he fits into your grand scheme of things, Mr Texas Jay.

I did try to look him up to try to figure out the connection you seem to be making.  To be frank, all I found was he was a guy who worked hard and lived a good life.

And I found more threads I can count in more message boards than I knew existed where you are pushing you Bloody Bill theory (and yes it is a theory).  I also found many message boards where the families of the James and the Bills are disputing your theory.  How is it that only you know the truth?

Bloody Bill was killed when he was killed.  He would not have walked away in the middle of the war.  To think he did does a disservice to his legend.    This Henry Ford of yours doesn't seem to have even been in the war.  He certainly was never a member of the rotating James gang.  Simply being a Mason does not mean you are in on a big conspiracy. 

Your facts all seem to be hearsay, and an old William Anderson who was either having some fun or looking for some fame and glory.  Even the birth, marriage, death records I saw posted of "your" Bill, does not dissuade you,  only you are correct and everyone else is wrong. 

A member of the James family I have corresponded with over the years threw in the towel in one of the threads I read.  They gave up trying to convince you. 

You cannot pick and choose facts to fit a theory.  It just doesn't work.  But people have mentioned that to you before, and I am sure it won't change your historical view.

Sometimes the truth is just what it is, and not what you want it to be.

I don't mean to beat this to death, but:

On May 26, 1874, Hardin, Jim Taylor, and others were celebrating Hardin's 21st birthday in Comanche, Texas when Hardin spotted Brown County, Texas, Deputy sheriff Charles Webb. Hardin asked Webb if he had come to arrest him and when Webb replied he hadn't, Hardin invited Webb into the hotel for a drink. As he followed Hardin inside Webb drew his gun, one of Hardin's men yelled a warning and Hardin spun around while drawing his own guns. In the ensuing gunfight, Webb was shot dead.

Wikipedia is not a great historical information center.  I would trust the Texas Sheriffs department to know what happened.  Anyone can upload from any source, and many old newpapers have names mixed up.

August 19, 1895 John Weley Hardin was shot in El Paso.

Not by Texas Rangers, not in Pescecola, as the sheriff report states - and not even the same year.  I'm not even sure if the Sheriff deputy was in Comanch when he was shot.

Tnwoods: "Says nothing about being killed by John Wesley Hardin"


http://johnwesleyhardindays.com/

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/WE-JohnWesleyHardin3.html



http://www.franksrealm.com/Indians/...s/pages/outlaw-johnwesleyhardin.htm

http://www.frontiertimes.com/outlaws/hardin.html

http://www.texasescapes.com/AllThin...istorical/Hardin-Brothers-BB706.htm

~Texas Jay

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/WE-JohnWesleyHardin3.html

I have looked at this site before, and in researching the stories I was interested in, I found a lot of historical inaccuracies on the site.  Not intentional, but they are just coping other sources that were inaccurate

Hardin on a train coming to Alabama from Pensacola, Florida. Hardin was quickly convicted and sentenced to 25 years hard labor at Huntsville Prison.

http://www.franksrealm.com/Indians/...s/pages/outlaw-johnwesleyhardin.htm

Same story, but again, the Sheriff report says the Rangers killed the man responsible.

Texas Rangers captured him in Pensacola, Florida, on July 23, 1877. He was tried at Comanche for the murder of Charles Webb

http://www.frontiertimes.com/outlaws/hardin.html

This story he isn't on the train, and Sheriff Webb was shot in 1874. not 1877

In June of 1874, John Wesley sent 13-year-old Jeff to collect $500 at a stockyard in Kansas City, which owed him money from the sale of cattle. John Wesley used the money to flee to Florida, where he was arrested on a railroad car at Pensacola in August of l877.

Again, 1877, not 1874, captured, not killed as to the Sheriff report.

All of these web sites seem to have copied a story from a book called “They died with their boots on” published in 1935, written by Thomas Ripley a mere 60 years after the fact

Here is a review from 1935 on this source book everyone uses for the Hadin tales

Thomas Ripley's new account of Hardin's gory career is a turbulent, romantic book in which guns roar on almost every page, remorseless pistolmen pink each other with grave aplomb, and hair-trigger gunplay is described in purple passages that smoke and crackle. Although he debunks some Western myths, Author Ripley is more interested in relating good, tall, cow-country tales.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,847495,00.html

While it sounds like a fun read, it doesn't seem to be very accurate historically.

If this quasi-fictional book is the only source of Hardin killing Sheriff Webb, and it conflicts the account the account Sheriff's themselves give, I would have to say I take the Sheriff version.

You should always try to find the source of the story.  A lot of history has simply been copied from earlier or other sources, which when you dig into it, you find the other sources are either not credible, or was a work of fiction that somehow got quoted as fact somewhere – and is quoted as fact from there on.  Very common for sories from the 1800's.

Historical web sites on outlaws are notorious for just copy and pasting stuff from each other.  No one ever checks for accuracy.

Now if you have an old 1874 newspaper clipping that backs up the story, that would be different.  But it sure looks like this whole story came out of a 1935 novel.

Cheers