Book: Treasure Secrets of the LD by Kenworthy , 1997

Having reviewed many posts I have found several comments about Charles Kenworthy, but no detailed opinions about his book, Treasure Secreds of the Lost Dutchman.  I'll stick my neck out and say that IMHO CK did a reasonable job explaining how he used the maps and clues to arrive at the site and conclusions he did.  But I have a few questions and hope some of you sourdough Dutch Hunders can provide more insight.

1.  Can anyone verify that Kenworthy used original Spanish/Mexican methods to intrepret the maps and symbols?

2.  I have passed through Labarge Canyon several times and never noticed the markers.  Has anyone else seen the "weedhook" or the "D" on the south side of the canyon?

3.  Has anyone been able to inspect the site in the photos on pages 54 and 55 and if so, is there any evidence of historical mining activity?

4.  Amy Mosier in her book Treasure Maps of the Superstitions reports that Kenworthy removed $13.5 million in gold from his claims Quo Vidas I through VII in Labarge Canon.  A copy of Kenworthy's filings are on page 95 of her book.  Can this discovery be verified?

Thanks in advance,

Bill

Hi Bill,

I was wondering if anyone would respond per Kenworthy's LDM book. I have not read it as I am not a believer in the LDM per say. Jacob Waltz lived and died and was known to roam the Soups and frequently went to Florence for supplies, etc. He was a sentinel whose job was to guard and protect a number of depositories that were located in the greater Florence depository area. If you are interested in learning more about this historical documented scenario let me know.

have a great week,

EB

Ellie,

"He was a sentinel whose job was to guard and protect a number of depositories that were located in the greater Florence depository area."

The first question that comes to mind is, why is Bill the only one you are making your document offer to?  I imagine there are any number of members here who would love to see this " historical documented scenario".  That would, of course, include me.

Take care,

Joe

Ellie,

"He was a sentinel whose job was to guard and protect a number of depositories that were located in the greater Florence depository area."

The first question that comes to mind is, why is Bill the only one you are making your document offer to?  I imagine there are any number of members here who would love to see this " historical documented scenario".  That would, of course, include me.

Take care,

Joe

Hi EB and Joe,

How about if we start a new thread on Waltz's guard/caretaker duties near Florence  and leave this thread for comments on Ks book.

I just got another email.... I think you guys are faster than I can post...!

Bill

Bill,

I have never been a big fan of Kenworthy, or his books.  The man lied to a friend of mine, and he has been a Kenworthy fan ever since.  I have the DVD of Kenworthy explaining his theories on the Stone Maps, and he couldn't remember how he figured it out.  Many of the people who were there, were embarrassed for the man.

Other's who knew him, said he saw shadow signs, monuments, carvings.......in every view.  On the other hand, I am sure he was a fine man.  Believe he was a fish out of water, so to speak, in the Superstitions.

I would like to hear from anyone who has found a (verifiable) mine or treasure using his "King's Code".

Just my opinion, so I could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

... The man lied to a friend of mine, and he has been a Kenworthy fan ever since. 

Hi Joe,

I guess you mean that "...he has NOT been a K fan ever since. "  I cannot think of a faster way for a person to loose credibility, particularly if that person sets themselves up as an expert or authority on a subject.  I've let "friends" like that just drift away.

After 30 years of military service and experience investigating two major aircraft accidents, I have learned that there are always two sides of the issue, sometimes extreme differences, and truth lies somewhere in the middle.

At this point, I haven't decided where K falls along the credibility spectrum.  I always am initially skeptical when an author does not include references where needed.  The professional writer will use proper grammar, spelling, word usage, and good sentence construction....  and not every letter of text as a capital letter like K does in this book.  This attention to detail helps to establish credibility and believability for the reader.  I only know K through his books and do hope we get more comments on his analysis in this book.  His other books give me more pause.  Particularly Spanish Monuments and Trail Markers...   K sees things in many of these examples that I cannot see, so I understand how he gets mixed reviews.  I hope others will comment on TS of the LD.

BTW, I haven't seen the K DVD you refer to;  do you know if it is still available?

From Alaska with shivers...

Bill

Bill,

The lie took place a number of years ago, over lunch in Apache Junction.  At that time, Kenworthy said he had hired Dr. Eugene Lyon, same man who helped Mel Fisher find the Atocha, to search the archives in Seville, Spain.  Claimed that Dr. Lyon found the "King's Code" documents, and sent him copies.  We had both tried to get into personal contact with Dr. Lyon, without success.

About a month or so ago, I talked to Dr. Lyon on the phone.  He told me he had never worked for Chuck Kenworthy, and had never heard of the King's Code.  My friend now knows the truth about something he has believed for years.

I did not ask him what he thought of Kenworthy's theories now.  Old dreams die hard.

I believe the tape is still available and will try to find out.

Take care,

Joe

Ellie,

"He was a sentinel whose job was to guard and protect a number of depositories that were located in the greater Florence depository area."

The first question that comes to mind is, why is Bill the only one you are making your document offer to?  I imagine there are any number of members here who would love to see this " historical documented scenario".  That would, of course, include me.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe,

Sorry about that. I was referring to my personal documentation and my experiences with Bob Brewer and others that had influenced my thoughts and beliefs in regards to the Spanish (Peralta) influences regarding the Stone Maps and the LDM. My focus is on Jacob Waltz, his involvement with the Florence Depository Area, and his primary responsibilities to the Secret Society which he was a part/member of. I must admit that much of my documentation is specific and to share it names several sentinels that some may be familiar with which are tied to locations where depositories have been hidden. So far I have been sharing what I can and will continue to do so. Bill has not been exposed to my belief system and I was going to suggest that he read Bob Brewer's books plus other reading material. You will see what he sees. I would never leave any of you my friends in the dust.
Have a great week,
EB

... The lie took place a number of years ago, over lunch in Apache Junction.  At that time, Kenworthy said he had hired Dr. Eugene Lyon, same man who helped Mel Fisher find the Atocha, to search the archives in Seville, Spain.  Claimed that Dr. Lyon found the "King's Code" documents, and sent him copies.  We had both tried to get into personal contact with Dr. Lyon, without success.

About a month or so ago, I talked to Dr. Lyon on the phone.  He told me he had never worked for Chuck Kenworthy, and had never heard of the King's Code.  My friend now knows the truth about something he has believed for years.

I did not ask him what he thought of Kenworthy's theories now.  Old dreams die hard.

I believe the tape is still available and will try to find out.

Take care,

Joe

What a sad state of affairs.  It is amazing that a "researcher" would lie about a thing like that.  I am amazed that publishers don't screen author's claims before they print unsubstantiated "facts" and conclusions.  Perhaps Quest Publishing is actually C. A. Kenworthy and he just self-published his books, therefore not needing to validate his claims to anyone before printing and selling his tale.

But it brings another question to my mind.  Is there any such thing as or like "The King's Code" or a set of "official" symbols and interpretations?  If so,do you know of anyone or any publication that accurately explains these map-making standards?

Still curious,

Bill

Hello Bill,

I don't mean to butt in here.
Nice weather up there in Alaska.
I know a few Gold Miners up there and they are real "die hards".

To answer your question the book is called "De Re Metallica".

And another I believ is called "The Rocks Begin to Speak".

I don't know the Authors names.

Bob C

......  To answer your question the book is called "De Re Metalli ca".

And another I believe is called "The Rocks Begin to Speak". ....

Bob 

Hi Bob and thanks for the leads.

After some online searching, I found both texts on Amazon, but neither was what I was looking for:  an explanation of what rules the Spanish Royalty required  (if it even exists) to document gold discoveries and depositories in the New World, the symbols and trail markers used, and their interpretations.  Some folks indicate that there was a "King's Code" that explained these things.  I have seen several books on "signs and symbols" and those authors claim to know how to interpret them, but provide no reference for those interpretations.  I think each of those authors created their own interpretations but do not explain how they came to these conclusions.... but it sure does sell a lot of books.

The index available online at Amazon for the book De Re Metallica lists only a single page to "map making" and I believe the author is referring to how the early European miners sketched out the lay of the mine and deposit they were digging.  A single page does not seem enough discussion to explain the rules, symbols, and mapmaking to locate mines and deposits in the New World by the Spanish.  Amazon also posted a sort of "Forward" that explains the purpose, focus, and main topics in this translation.  See image below.



The other book, The Rocks Begin To Speak focuses on picture writing by Native Americans.  According to purchasers of this book, the author makes the case that those pictographs are more than art.  They also could indicate trails to water or a method to document history or a significant event in the lives of those early Native Americans.  I have a few books about picture writing by Native Americans but not this one.  I do plan to add this one to my collection.  It sounds very interesting.

But, if there is any writing or book on the "King's Code", we'll have to continue the search.  Dr. Lyon's comments to Cactusjumper may have been an attempt to protect and keep such information confidential that is available in Spanish Archives but not generally known.  At least the current sign and symbol "experts" are not providing the supporting documents to strengthen their interpretations and conclusions.

Again, thanks, Bob, for the suggestions.  Gotta crank up the Yamaha Grizzly and go plow the lane...  got 5 inches of snow last two days.

Bill

[published]

Bill,

You are not the first to search for any documentation for the "King's Code".  I believe it does not exist, and never did.  If you think about it, it is illogical to think it would be kept secret.  I have never seen where Kenworthy published that he had found the codes.

If you find them, the treasure hunting comunity will beat a path to your doorway.

Take care,

Joe

......  To answer your question the book is called "De Re Metalli ca".

And another I believe is called "The Rocks Begin to Speak". ....

Bob  

Hi Bob and thanks for the leads.

After some online searching, I found both texts on Amazon, but neither was what I was looking for:  an explanation of what rules the Spanish Royalty required  (if it even exists) to document gold discoveries and depositories in the New World, the symbols and trail markers used, and their interpretations.  Some folks indicate that there was a "King's Code" that explained these things.  I have seen several books on "signs and symbols" and those authors claim to know how to interpret them, but provide no reference for those interpretations.  I think each of those authors created their own interpretations but do not explain how they came to these conclusions.... but it sure does sell a lot of books.

The index available online at Amazon for the book De Re Metallica lists only a single page to "map making" and I believe the author is referring to how the early European miners sketched out the lay of the mine and deposit they were digging.  A single page does not seem enough discussion to explain the rules, symbols, and mapmaking to locate mines and deposits in the New World by the Spanish.  Amazon also posted a sort of "Forward" that explains the purpose, focus, and main topics in this translation.  See image below.

[ ERROR: SPECIFIED ATTACHMENT MISSING ]

The other book, The Rocks Begin To Speak focuses on picture writing by Native Americans.  According to purchasers of this book, the author makes the case that those pictographs are more than art.  They also could indicate trails to water or a method to document history or a significant event in the lives of those early Native Americans.  I have a few books about picture writing by Native Americans but not this one.  I do plan to add this one to my collection.  It sounds very interesting.

But, if there is any writing or book on the "King's Code", we'll have to continue the search.  Dr. Lyon's comments to Cactusjumper may have been an attempt to protect and keep such information confidential that is available in Spanish Archives but not generally known.  At least the current sign and symbol "experts" are not providing the supporting documents to strengthen their interpretations and conclusions.

Again, thanks, Bob, for the suggestions.  Gotta crank up the Yamaha Grizzly and go plow the lane...  got 5 inches of snow last two days.

Bill

Hello Bill
Search the University of Arizona Library for De Re Metallica, I found it there and down loaded it from there internet down load page.
FEMF

Bill,

I must respectfully disagree with FMEF.  You should, if possible, purchase a copy of "De Re Metallica".
Can't imagine how downloading from the Internet can stack up against holding that book in your hands.  It's a great piece of history.

The contents are not practical for today, but it's a wonderful window into the past.

Take care,

Joe

Hello Bill
Search the University of Arizona Library for De Re Metallica, I found it there and down loaded it from there internet down load page.
FEMF

Hello FEMF and welcome,

I am still looking for the download site at UA but cannot find it.  I checked the "index" on the home page and also did a search on the Dept of Mining and Geology Engineering webpage.  No luck there either.

Do you remember more specifically where you found that download page?

Thanks for the lead.  If it is a download pdf, I would like to add it to my must read files.

Bill

I just wish to agree with Cactusjumper, it is always preferable to own the hardcopy - however if you are impatient or POOR (like some of us) luckily De Re Metallica is online in several places, like this site
http://www.farlang.com/gemstones/agricola-metallica/page_001
While this information may seem so far out of date as to be useless, the "primitive" prospecting and mining methods may prove useful for individuals or "Mom -n- Pop" operations without access to large financial backing. 
Oroblanco

[published]

Bill,

You are not the first to search for any documentation for the "King's Code".  I believe it does not exist, and never did.  If you think about it, it is illogical to think it would be kept secret.  I have never seen where Kenworthy published that he had found the codes.

If you find them, the treasure hunting comunity will beat a path to your doorway.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe,

First, about De Re Metallica.  I think I'll buy a copy so I can have it available.  You are right, I don't always have my computer available when I need to "read" something that doesn't require electricity to do that.  But if it is available via download (legally) a back up copy on the computer would be nice.

About Kenworthy's claim that he had found or had access to the Spanish codes, it sticks in the back of my mind that he had made some comment to that effect.  I'll get his books out and see if I can find a reference and let you know.

Bill

I just wish to agree with Cactusjumper, it is always preferable to own the hardcopy - however if you are impatient or POOR (like some of us) luckily De Re Metallica is online in several places, like this site
http://www.farlang.com/gemstones/agricola-metallica/page_001
While this information may seem so far out of date as to be useless, the "primitive" prospecting and mining methods may prove useful for individuals or "Mom -n- Pop" operations without access to large financial backing. 
Oroblanco

Thanks, Oroblanco,

I have bookmarked that page and it is saved.  I've been wanting to review this old text for some time and didn't know its title.  I am sure I can learn from what worked in the past.  I find it interesting to learn why certain methods were chosen and found to be successful.

Bill

Bill,

Here is another site:

http://www.archive.org/details/georgiusagricola00agririch

Good hunting,

Joe

Bill,

Here is another site:

http://www.archive.org/details/georgiusagricola00agririch

Good hunting,

Joe

That worked!  Thanks, Joe.  Pretty large file, but I got it all.  That should keep me in enought reading material to last the cold, Arctic winter.... maybe a couple.

Bill

Bill,

Here is another site:

http://www.archive.org/details/georgiusagricola00agririch

Good hunting,

Joe

That worked!  Thanks, Joe.  Pretty large file, but I got it all.  That should keep me in enought reading material to last the cold, Arctic winter.... maybe a couple.

Bill

Hello Bill
Sorry about that, I left work early yesterday, I found that link thru a link Oro posted in another forum, Books of the southwest at the University of Arizona Library, Rudo Ensayo: A Deseription of Sonora and Arizona, 1764. A very good read.
FEMF

Hello Bill
Sorry about that, I left work early yesterday, I found that link thru a link Oro posted in another forum, Books of the southwest at the University of Arizona Library, Rudo Ensayo: A Deseription of Sonora and Arizona, 1764. A very good read.
FEMF

Hi, FEMF....

Not to worry, my friend, I appreciate your attempt to help me in my search.  I'll check out the "Description" when I get a chance. 

Bill

Hi Bob and thanks for the leads.

After some online searching, I found both texts on Amazon, but neither was what I was looking for:  an explanation of what rules the Spanish Royalty required  (if it even exists) to document gold discoveries and depositories in the New World, the symbols and trail markers used, and their interpretations.  Some folks indicate that there was a "King's Code" that explained these things.  I have seen several books on "signs and symbols" and those authors claim to know how to interpret them, but provide no reference for those interpretations.  I think each of those authors created their own interpretations but do not explain how they came to these conclusions.... but it sure does sell a lot of books.

The index available online at Amazon for the book De Re Metallica lists only a single page to "map making" and I believe the author is referring to how the early European miners sketched out the lay of the mine and deposit they were digging.  A single page does not seem enough discussion to explain the rules, symbols, and mapmaking to locate mines and deposits in the New World by the Spanish.  Amazon also posted a sort of "Forward" that explains the purpose, focus, and main topics in this translation.  See image below.

The other book, The Rocks Begin To Speak focuses on picture writing by Native Americans.  According to purchasers of this book, the author makes the case that those pictographs are more than art.  They also could indicate trails to water or a method to document history or a significant event in the lives of those early Native Americans.  I have a few books about picture writing by Native Americans but not this one.  I do plan to add this one to my collection.  It sounds very interesting.

But, if there is any writing or book on the "King's Code", we'll have to continue the search.  Dr. Lyon's comments to Cactusjumper may have been an attempt to protect and keep such information confidential that is available in Spanish Archives but not generally known.  At least the current sign and symbol "experts" are not providing the supporting documents to strengthen their interpretations and conclusions.

Again, thanks, Bob, for the suggestions.  Gotta crank up the Yamaha Grizzly and go plow the lane...  got 5 inches of snow last two days.

Bill

Another book that may be what your looking for goes to the next phase or step beyond Kenworthy's books. This guy Jim Price some how got access to the information Kenworthy leaves out of his book's and he has been finding treasures ever since. He's hard to contact and doesn't want to be. I don't blame him. He never did come out with any more books just like Kenworthy hasn't. But his method of explaining what some would call the "King's Code" makes it simple to follow to the smelter site's and  storage area's of the various Spanish gold mines.


Jim Price's:

Treasure Trails Volume 1 "Spanish Signs and Symbols Made Simple"

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0970440901/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books

Thx,

Bob

[published]

Bill,

You are not the first to search for any documentation for the "King's Code".  I believe it does not exist, and never did.  If you think about it, it is illogical to think it would be kept secret.  I have never seen where Kenworthy published that he had found the codes.

If you find them, the treasure hunting comunity will beat a path to your doorway.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe,

You make a good point and I agree.  If provided to explain how an author came to his or her conclusions, for example finding an actual site,  the analysis, argument, conclusions, and the author receive significantly more credibility.  Also, another book about the "King's Code" could be published and sold. 

After digging out my books by K, I am of the opinion that he did exactly that.  I found the following discussion in the "Acknowledgments" and "Introduction" sections on pages 7 and 11 of Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadows, and Sun Signs, 1991:

Page 7


Page 11


Apparently Kenworthy claims that he received copies of what might be referred to as “The King’s Code” and used these rules, definitions, and signs to interpret the maps and trail signs.  These tools led him to his findings described in is 1997 book, Treasure Secrets of the Lost Dutchman.

However, to satisfy my curiosity I wish I had access to those same original rules, definitions and signs to see if I would make the same interpretations.  I also would like to get back to Labarge Canyon to view those trail markers myself.  In this book by K, he took good pictures and using the documentation he received, identifies exactly where at least one of the Peralta/Gonzales (LDM?) mines was located.

Quite a few folks have viewed this thread so far but no one seems to have read K’s book or hasn’t formed an opinion about it enough to put in their “2 cents”.  I hope more will.

It appears that K had a few PHDs and archivists helping him and he did receive copies of the “official” Spanish mapping and code system (he doesn’t mention Dr. Lyon, however).  I have to assume that he publicly shared the mapping and marking rules of the "Code" when he published his other books, particularly Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadow and Sun Signs.  Nevertheless, I still would like to see copies of the original sources. 

Too bad Kenworthy has passed away.  I would like to ask him a few questions about his research and conclusions. 

Bill

Another book that may be what your looking for goes to the next phase or step beyond Kenworthy's books. This guy Jim Price some how got access to the information Kenworthy leaves out of his book's and he has been finding treasures ever since. He's hard to contact and doesn't want to be. I don't blame him. He never did come out with any more books just like Kenworthy hasn't. But his method of explaining what some would call the "King's Code" makes it simple to follow to the smelter site's and  storage area's of the various Spanish gold mines.

Jim Price's:

Treasure Trails Volume 1 "Spanish Signs and Symbols Made Simple"

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0970440901/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books

Thanks, Bob,

I've added Jim's book to my Christmas Wish List.  Looking forward to reading this one.

Bill

Bill,

I've read every book of Kenworthy's and can honestly tell you he seems to know what he's saying in some of it and contradicting himself on other parts. I think he intended for it to be that way.
But never the less I think some of what he explains as the Kings Code may be true and helps to find various things. What those things are is anybody's guess.
I know of another book that's coming out soon that will shed some light on the missing pieces of the Treasure Hunting puzzle.

I think it's called:
 
"Universal Symbols to Treasure's of the Spanish" by an unknown Author.

I hope it gets published soon.

But I wouldn't hold your breath because the Author is an unknown person and hasn't been forth coming in his writing.

Bob

I've read every book of Kenworthy's and can honestly tell you he seems to know what he's saying in some of it and contradicting himself on other parts. I think he intended for it to be that way.

Hi Bob,

I get the same impression.  I am looking forward to reading the book by Jim Price and see if he acknowledges Kenworthy as a source of information.

Bill

.........   and contradicting himself on other parts. .......

Bob,

Yes, I got the same impression.  Did you find any of these contradictions in Treasure Secrets of the LD ?  If you have an example or two, I'd like to compare notes.

Bill

Okay, time for me to weigh in here:

Regardless what some may think about CK, there are a few things that everybody should know:

1. He showed a friend of mine a LOT of very high grade (bonanza) ore in the trunk of his car that came from the Supers. I implicitly trust my friend's word. He was a good friend of CK before his death in 1999.

2. He found 1028 silver bars in Southern Arizona. The Jesuit Martyr Cache of Padre Javier Saeta SJ after his murder in 1695.

There are more finds, and I was hesitant about posting some of this info. The trunk of gold ore was never published, but the silver bars did make it into a rarely seen article. CK is one of the very few people in the treasure hunting family who has EVER found anything of consequence. I have met a load of people in this obsession who claim to have a lot of knowledge about symbols and hidden meanings, buuuuuuuuuuuuuut, when it comes to where the rubber meets the road, I can count the number of people who have REALLY found anything on two hands (with fingers to spare). I have said this many times before: choose to believe anybody you want, but take EVERYTHING you hear with a grain of salt. The funny thing is, the people I have met who have the most REAL knowledge in regards to treasure hunting........you have never heard of (probably  )

That being said, he did have some personal issues that didn't endear him to some. I don't know the source of Joe's Friend who had this conversation with CK, but I trust Joe, and he says he trusts this friend. Good enough for me. Why CK would lie about Dr. Lyons I have no idea. Is it possible that Dr. Lyons lied about a relationship with CK? That is possible as well, since he was employed at the time by the Fishers researching the Atocha. I could not say either way. I DO KNOW FOR A FACT that he had MANY sources of archival documents. He spent a small fortune getting the copies of documents he did.

He was a millionaire several times over from the real estate market in Southern California before ever seriously getting into Treasure Hunting. He had the money to pay for access to archives and archivists. I know one and have met another that have seen the hundreds of pages of documents that belonged to CK.

As far as your scans, I also know Dr. Lambert Dolphin (formerly of Stanford Research Institute). He verified to me personally that he came out and did several GPR (ground penetrating radar) Surveys of different treasure sites CK was working on.

Another thing I can say with a very high degree of surety is that while CK did share a lot of his information in his books, he held back probably as much. One thing many people fail to realize is that CK was a Treasure Hunter, not a philanthropist. He paid a great deal of money to get the information he got. All the mooches in the treasure hunting world seem to think that this is some great sin, that he wouldn't share ALL the info he got over the years.

AlaskaBill,

You did come close to a truth in one of your posts, and you could have answered your own question had you looked a little closer. The name of the company that published his books was Quest Publishing. In the "Signs, Symbols, Shadow, and Sun Signs" Book, he states that:

I had already formed "THE QUEST, AN EXPLORATION CORPORATION"

Coincidence? Not likely.

CK was a complicated person. While his accomplishments were tremendous he had some pretty serious character flaws (ego being one). Since I started my own obsession with treasure hunting, I have always tried to find the truth behind not only the stories, but the authors (hence my username of Gollum, who climbed to the roots of the mountains in order to find the truth of all things). I have been pretty disappointed by almost every well known treasure hunter I have researched (I say Almost because Frank Fish seems to have been a pretty straight shooter, as well as Karl Von Mueller). I also possess a good bit of CKs research materials. Like some genuinely gifted psychics, he couldn't produce "on demand" so to speak, and probably "improvised" and "embellished" on occasion (being polite). That's the reason why a good treasure hunting TV Show has never been done. A special every now and then, when something good has been found is one thing, but a weekly audience expects you to find "SOMETHING" or they will lose interest very quickly. This leads to either making crap up (Ghost Hunters) or a very boring TV Show. Maybe Joe can mail me a copy of that DVD. That kind of thing interests me greatly.

I know a lot of the Apache Junction Folks look at CK as a joke, but because of what I KNOW he found, I am always willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Best-Mike

Hello Mike,

Send me your mailing address.

Take care,

Joe

Dear group;
The article posted by AlaskaBill concerning the translation of the volume "De Metallic Re" is incorrect. President Hoover did not translate the text, rather his wife did, who was a VERY highly accomplished Latin linguistic scholar. She was one of the top Latinists of her time, of all time really, and her husband, President Hoover was a mining engineer and he had no grasp of Latin, so at his behest, his wife, Lou Henry Hoover, translated the text.

She was also an accomplished geologist and spoke several languages quite readily, including Mandarin Chinese. In fact, Mrs. Hoover's translation of De metallic Re was so good that I was able to find only two mistakes in the original printing. Considering the size and scope of the text, this was an incredible feat and the translation must have taken years to accomplish.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[take EVERYTHING you hear with a grain of salt]

....I have said this many times before: choose to believe anybody you want, but take EVERYTHING you hear with a grain of salt....

Everyone on this forum who actually DOES want the truth of things should have this tattooed on their arm.  There are NO unimpeachable sources of information available in the public domain.

Hi Mike,

Thank you for a through post.  You provided a wealth of background material for me that I found to be very interesting which filled in a lot of blanks in my knowledge and understanding of CK.

I just wish that I had read his books earlier and had a chance to query him about some of his analysis directly.  After I posted the comments about self-publishing his books, I went back and also found as you pointed out his comment that he had formed his "Quest" corporation (LLC).  And Quest he lists as the publisher.

I am still looking for some kind of verification that CK used "official" royal Spanish definitions and procedures to interpret the map and trail signs and symbols.  For the time being, I am also giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Bill

Dear alaskabill;
You pondered:
I am still looking for some kind of verification that CK used "official" royal Spanish definitions and procedures to interpret the map and trail signs and symbols.  For the time being, I am also giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I can already tell you, my friend, that you will not find the verificiation which you are seeking because it simply does not exist. There are no hidden documents pertaining to the New World colonies, either in Spain, Italy, The Vatican, or any other parts of Europe. Everything that has been written pertaining to the New World has been recorded and preserved in one of the many archives housed throughout Europe and Latin America,

There is no grand conspiracy theory nor are there any secrets, my friend. All that remains of Spanish interaction in the New World are the historical facts. Enough time has passed that any and all deep dark secrets may be revealed without reprecussions, as all of the participants are long dead and buried. All past transgressions have been revealed and studied, my friend. Nothing remains except the facts. Charles Kenworthy made up the part about the Royal Spanish secret marking system and he did so in order to sell his books.
Your friend;
LAMAR

... I am still looking for some kind of verification that CK used "official" royal Spanish definitions and procedures to interpret the map and trail signs and symbols.  For the time being, I am also giving him the benefit of the doubt....

Understandable, considering that so many have accepted, and defend the belief that this 'revelation' is the real deal.  Human nature never seems to change does it?  At least you are seeking verification.  It hasn't surfaced yet.

Alaskabill,

They do exist, but it is not likely that they will come to light (unless there is more money to made by doing that than by keeping them secret and using their information for personal gain).

Lamar,

Your roots are showing again! HAHAHA The documents in question are by no means archive secrets. They are, however, buried within hundreds of years of other historical documents. Unless you have personally looked at every document in every archive (or have been an Archive Secretary at the Curia or Archivo Segretto in Rome, The Royal Archives of Seville, or Archivo de los Indios, or the Archives in Mexico City or Acapulco).

You stated:

Everything that has been written pertaining to the New World has been recorded and preserved in one of the many archives housed throughout Europe and Latin America,

You are correct here. As I stated, they are not secret, just buried (that I know of).

You also use the phrase "De Metallic Re" in a very authoritative manner. The title of the tome is "De Re Metallica". Should you attempt to argue that your Latin Verbiage is the correct, I choose to use that used by Georgii Agricolae on the published title page of HIS BOOK (see scan below).

Best-Mike

[There is no grand conspiracy theory nor are there any secrets, my friend]

Lamar wrote, <in reply to AlaskaBill>

There is no grand conspiracy theory nor are there any secrets, my friend.

Surely you are not that naive Lamar?  Have you researched European history well enough, and yet somehow not have noticed the incredible spaghetti mass of intrigues, conspiracies, plots even assassinations which were (and likely are) rife in European governments of the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.  Not to mention the various examples in European churches, and not just the Roman Catholic.  In just one example, the French intervention in Mexico, the courts of Napoleon III, the Hapsburgs, the British monarchy, the USA and the church were all involved in various "secret" proceedings.  I have to wonder why you would make such a statement, when the truth is very plainly revealed to be absolutely to the contrary. 

AlaskaBill, do your own research and you will reach your own conclusions, and beware when someone tells you "there is no conspiracy" or "there are no secrets" - for everyone has an agenda, including ME. 
Oroblanco 
 

LAMAR wrote: 

I can already tell you, my friend, that you will not find the verificiation which you are seeking because it simply does not exist.

Springfield wrote: 

Understandable, considering that so many have accepted, and defend the belief that this 'revelation' is the real deal.  Human nature never seems to change does it?  At least you are seeking verification.  It hasn't surfaced yet.

gollum wrote: 

They do exist, but it is not likely that they will come to light (unless there is more money to made by doing that than by keeping them secret and using their information for personal gain).

oroblanco wrote: 

do your own research and you will reach your own conclusions...

I appreciate all your comments and have been thinking about how to proceed.  I decided to approach the verification process from a slightly different angle. 

I did a Google search and found a few contacts for SRI International (previously known as SRI), Kenworthy's reported research assistance and source of "King's Code" documents.  I sent two emails; one to the manager of the company's alumni association and another to a contact in the administration.  I requested them to verify Kenworthy's contact and association with their organization and specifically the three Phd researchers that K indicated by name as those who assisted him and the source of his Spanish Archive documents.

If SRI reports no contact with Kenworthy, then Kenworthy's claim of "King's Code" documents is in serious doubt and Mr. K looses most of his credibility in my mind.

I'll post the SRI response when received.

Bill

Bill,

I have already done that and confirmed Chuck Kenworthy's association with two of the men, from SRI, that he mentioned in his book.  Lambert Dolphin went into the Superstitions with Chuck many times.  Two places where you can contact Lambert are:   http://www.ldolphin.org/URLres.shtml
and:  lambert@ldolphin.org

Much of the information on his website is related to his Christian activities, but he does have a portion dedicated to treasure hunting.  If you scroll down, you will find it.

Roger had an association with Chuck and continues that with "Tiger", Chuck's son.  Chuck, Jr. is still interested in the Superstition Mountains.  It is believed that he still has all of his father's papers.

Good luck and good hunting,

Joe

Bill,

I don't think SRI (as an entity) had any association with CK. It was only a couple of well known individuals that happened to work for SRI tghat CK had individual relationships with.

Best-Mike

Joe and Mike,

Thanks for the additional information.  It will be interesting to see how SRI responds.  Glad to have the additional contact info.

  I might go through Quest and see if I can get some info from K Jr about any such "King's Code" documentation.  I would be satisfied if he confirmed that "yes" his father had such copies of documents from the Archives in Spain and used them to write his "Signs, Symbols,..." book in 1991 and his LDM analysis........ or have you already done that also, Joe?   

Bill

Bill,

I have heard that it was "Tiger" who wrote Chuck's books for him.  I have also heard that "Tiger" is not an easy man to contact.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

It's interesting to learn that he had his son do the writing.  When I get the chance, I am going to try to reach CK Jr and ask him about the documentation.

Bill

HAHAHA Good luck in getting anything out of "Tiger". While I understand he does still have some treasure hunting interests, he is VERY private (being VERY polite), and doesn't have much to do with most treasure hunters.

Best-Mike

HAHAHA Good luck in getting anything out of "Tiger". While I understand he does still have some treasure hunting interests, he is VERY private (being VERY polite), and doesn't have much to do with most treasure hunters.

Best-Mike

Hi Mike,

Well, as they say, nothing ventured, nothing gained..... gotta try anyway.  Maybe I'll get lucky and catch him during a "weak" moment.  I might wait until after the holidays to avoid all the seasonal distractions.

Best regards,

Bill

Dear Gollum;
Which title is correct is a matter of personal preferences, my friend. I prefer to use the classical Latin form De Metallica Re (About the Metals-Subject) as opposed to the later Latin form De Re Metallica (About the Subject [of] Minerals). The reason for this confusion is because the word *RE* does not exist in true Latin, rather it is a root word, which combined with another word, means *BACK* or *AGAIN* or something of this nature. Our modern English words use the exact same rules in reagrds to *RE*, for example, REdo, REtrace, REtract, etc. Therefore, the books' title is not correct Latin, my friend, and in order for it be so, the correct form would be De Matallic Re(probatur) which means "The Subject of Metals Re-examined(or, [studied in greater detail]"
and not "De Reprobatur Metallica".

Also, we may plainly see that the word METALLICA is singlular in the title, however George Bauer(the German surname for Agricola) wrote about metals and minerals in general. So why the descrepencies? The answer is really quite simple. Back in the early days of printing, every page had to be carved out by hand and in order to save time and labor, many words were shortened, re-arranged or completely eliminated. This was not the fault of the authors, rather the responsibility for textual accuracy lay with the publishers and we may find a great many errors which are attributed directly to them. (Correction:The volume De Metallica Re was printed using movable type, however the typesets were also comprised of wooden letters, numerals, figures etc. Therefore the space requirements remained constrictive, only slightly so. it was not until the advent of metal moveable typesets that the characters became very small, thus practically eliminating the need for word shortenings or re-arrangements.)

As you may see for the photo of the title page which you've so thoughtfully provided us, the complete title would have been extremely difficult, if not downright impossible, to carve in it's entirety. Therefore, in light of the facts, the volume may have been George Bauer's, but he was subjected to the vagraties of the publishing house which first published his volume.

Perhaps in the future it might behoove you to study a subject in somewhat greater detail before pressing the *jumping to conclusions* button, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR
P.S. For a 100% accurate title of the book De Re Metallica, the correct title should have been De Metallicus Reprobaturus, which means "The Subject of Metals (or minerals) Examined Closely". Taking this into consideration, we may understand that not everyone was fluent in classical Latin, even back in those days.

Dear group;
To re-iterate once more, there do not exist any documents which outline secret symbols or codes, or whatever by the King of Spain or anyone else. It's just a figment of Charles Kenworthy's overactive imagination. In order words, he made that up in order to help sell his books. There is absolutely no proof of any *secret* documents, nor does there exist any *archivists who wish to remain nameless*.  It's all fantasy, plain, pure and simple. The man wove a good tale, not as good as J. Frank Dobie, but he told some fairly good yarns, nonetheless, we must always bear in mind that the yarns are exactly that, simply yarns, without the slightest scrap of historical accuracy about them.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear group;
To re-iterate once more, there do not exist any documents which outline secret symbols or codes, or whatever by the King of Spain or anyone else. It's just a figment of Charles Kenworthy's overactive imagination. In order words, he made that up in order to help sell his books. There is absolutely no proof of any *secret* documents, nor does there exist any *archivists who wish to remain nameless*.  It's all fantasy, plain, pure and simple. The man wove a good tale, not as good as J. Frank Dobie, but he told some fairly good yarns, nonetheless, we must always bear in mind that the yarns are exactly that, simply yarns, without the slightest scrap of historical accuracy about them.
Your friend;
LAMAR

If we could be granted one wish on this subject, it would be far more interesting to me to learn more about Kenworthy the man.  What would motivate him to publish this so-called 'secret information' in the first place?  His public personna notwithstanding (i.e., all the remembered anecdotal contacts with TH-er's who hang onto their impressions of their conversations, etc.), what drove the man behind the curtain?

Dear group;
To re-iterate once more, there do not exist any documents which outline secret symbols or codes, or whatever by the King of Spain or anyone else. It's just a figment of Charles Kenworthy's overactive imagination. In order words, he made that up in order to help sell his books. There is absolutely no proof of any *secret* documents, nor does there exist any *archivists who wish to remain nameless*.  It's all fantasy, plain, pure and simple. The man wove a good tale, not as good as J. Frank Dobie, but he told some fairly good yarns, nonetheless, we must always bear in mind that the yarns are exactly that, simply yarns, without the slightest scrap of historical accuracy about them.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar,

For you to make such a broad sweeping  authoratative statement is at best ignorint (sic), and at worst dishonest. Since you choose to remain anonymous, I would chose your word over CKs.......maybe......NEVER! The same argument I have used to  Rangler, Stildogn, and the like is "Why should ANYBODY take the word of ANYONE who doesn't have the common decency to identify themselves?

Time and again, you make completely dismissive, arrogant statements, in the process ignoring a vast amount of evidence that runs contrary to your statements. You ignore or refuse to acknowledge people who provide evidences that show something you state to be untrue. You, my friend, are nothing but a flamer. A troll, albeit an educated troll. I have not done this to ANYBODY before, but now.........IGNORE.

Best-Mike

Good Morning Lamar:  You posted -->

Taking this into consideration, we may understand that not everyone was fluent in classical Latin, even back in those days.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Interesting my  friend,  may I apply  that quote regarding fluency in a language to the LDM related stones?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Gollum;
It is as you wish for it to be. As you've put me on IGNORE so I've placed you on IGNORE. Does this make you happy?
LAMAR

Springfield,

"If we could be granted one wish on this subject, it would be far more interesting to me to learn more about Kenworthy the man.  What would motivate him to publish this so-called 'secret information' in the first place?  His public personna notwithstanding (i.e., all the remembered anecdotal contacts with TH-er's who hang onto their impressions of their conversations, etc.), what drove the man behind the curtain?"

Ego??

Take care,

Joe

Springfield,

"If we could be granted one wish on this subject, it would be far more interesting to me to learn more about Kenworthy the man.  What would motivate him to publish this so-called 'secret information' in the first place?  His public personna notwithstanding (i.e., all the remembered anecdotal contacts with TH-er's who hang onto their impressions of their conversations, etc.), what drove the man behind the curtain?"

Ego??

Take care,

Joe

That's the most obvious answer, but winning odds don't always produce a winner.

lamar is always jumping in to call someone a liar,maybe all should put him on ignore so we can have a peaceful conversation.   whitt459

Dear whitt459;
By all means, do whatever you feel necessary, however that will NOT change the facts of the matter, which are these. There does NOT exist a single shred of documented proof where the King of Spain, or anyone else, outlined a system of secret codes, symbols and markings in order to facilitate the re-discovery of mines and/or minerals, should they have been abandoned.

Understand this point very clearly, my friend. Charles Kenworthy, along with many others, have *bent* history for the sake of book sales. This is not a personal opinion, this is a FACT. If anyone bothered to learn the actual history of the Spanish New World colonies, they would immediately realize that what Mr. Kenworthy did was to take a fanciful treasure tale and placed it against the backdrop of the New World colonies and missions. This is fine with me and I have no qualms about him doing this, but when he dragged innocent groups and organizations, which still exist today, into the tale, he then placed those groups in a very bad light.

In other words, he slandered innocents for the sake of turning a profit, and you, as well as others, see nothing wrong with this? Perhaps if it was YOUR family whom he slandered, or YOUR religion whom he lied about, then you would see things from a slightly different point of view, my friend.

Therefore, do whatever you feel to be right, however neither you, nor anyone else, can produce the documents which prove that the Spanish had a secret system of codes and symbols for marking the trails to mines and hidden caches.
Your friend;
LAMAR

lamar is always jumping in to call someone a liar,maybe all should put him on ignore so we can have a peaceful conversation.   whitt459

I have always found Lamar’s posts to be truthful, insightful and helpful. I see Lamar offering his opinion. I do not see Lamar jumping in, anywhere, calling people a liar.

These tactics of false accusations are not wanted or warranted.   

Dear SWR;
Thank you for the vote of confidence my friend. I have always attempted to present the facts as they are and dispel with rumors and suppositions. The search for treasure first begins with the search for the FACTS. Unfortunately not everyone chooses to follow this formula.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar and SWR,

I completely agree with both of your posts.  

Having always looked forward to Lamar's posts, there is no chance I would ever put him on ignore.  There is just too much historical information coming from the man........even though he is wrong, on occasion.

Take care,

Joe

Lamar and SWR,

I completely agree with both of your posts.  

Having always looked forward to Lamar's posts, there is no chance I would ever put him on ignore.  There is just too much historical information coming from the man........even though he is wrong, on occasion.

Take care,

Joe

Dear cactusjumper;
Thank you my friend. And you are correct, I've never claimed to be 100% accurate, as there is simply too much historical documentation for any one person to be able to digest, memorize and catalog although I do try. On another note, you were spot-on the money with the Peraltas, it seems. I do stand corrected and also, because of your astute vigiliance to historical accuracy you have given me some more data to research in the future. I applaud and salute your efforts, my friend!
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Lamar,

I appreciate your comment on the Peralta history.

While I have never spent any time, on my own, looking for the LDM, I have always believed in the Peralta connection with the Superstition Mountains and the existence of Waltz's mine.  For that reason, I have researched their history.

Knowing Dr. Glover personally, and having talked to him many times, I trusted his research on the subject.
Because it closely matched Blair's accounts and I know how thorough Thomas is, I assumed both men had seen the same records.

In this case, I had no personal knowledge of the early Peralta mining in Arizona.  I had seen none of the records.  A quick note to Thomas and the records were in the mail.  As I have said many times, in this game it's not so much what you know, as who you know.

Like most, I stand on the shoulders of the giants, and Thomas is one of many who have helped me along.

Take care,

Joe

CactusJumper Wrote:"I have always believed in the Peralta connection with the Superstition Mountains and the existence of Waltz's mine."                 I must state that i absolutely agree, and share this same view.

lamar is always jumping in to call someone a liar,maybe all should put him on ignore so we can have a peaceful conversation.   whitt459

I have always found Lamar’s posts to be truthful, insightful and helpful. I see Lamar offering his opinion. I do not see Lamar jumping in, anywhere, calling people a liar.

These tactics of false accusations are not wanted or warranted.   

SWR,

Maybe you should read more of Lamar's Posts. Although he does not use the word "liar" he says so much with much more elocution. He is educated and DOES have a great knowledge regarding Jesuits in the New World. He attacks ANYONE whom he thinks is disparaging his most coveted Order.

Folks in general,

I used to look forward to Lamar's and mine spirited go to's, and he was always polite in our arguments. My only gripe with him was when time after time, I provided statements and proofs that contradicted much of what he proselytized, he either ignored them or said he would look into it, and NEVER responded.

It was just this last thing that when he eloquently called people I know to be honest and truthful liars, and AGAIN completely ignored the facts of both gold and silver finds I KNOW to be real, I had had enough. I have even emailed him pictures of the finds to show that they were legitimate. I just got tired of having to make the same arguments OVER and OVER and OVER. Just like I am with women......when I'm done, I'm done.

Especially since he seems to be afraid to let people know who he is. That ALWAYS irks me (not just about him, but ANYBODY who does that).

Best-Mike

lamar is always jumping in to call someone a liar,maybe all should put him on ignore so we can have a peaceful conversation.   whitt459

I have always found Lamar’s posts to be truthful, insightful and helpful. I see Lamar offering his opinion. I do not see Lamar jumping in, anywhere, calling people a liar.

These tactics of false accusations are not wanted or warranted.   

SWR,

Maybe you should read more of Lamar's Posts. Although he does not use the word "liar" he says so much with much more elocution. He is educated and DOES have a great knowledge regarding Jesuits in the New World. He attacks ANYONE whom he thinks is disparaging his most coveted Order.

Folks in general,

I used to look forward to Lamar's and mine spirited go to's, and he was always polite in our arguments. My only gripe with him was when time after time, I provided statements and proofs that contradicted much of what he proselytized, he either ignored them or said he would look into it, and NEVER responded.

It was just this last thing that when he eloquently called people I know to be honest and truthful liars, and AGAIN completely ignored the facts of both gold and silver finds I KNOW to be real, I had had enough. I have even emailed him pictures of the finds to show that they were legitimate. I just got tired of having to make the same arguments OVER and OVER and OVER. Just like I am with women......when I'm done, I'm done.

Especially since he seems to be afraid to let people know who he is. That ALWAYS irks me (not just about him, but ANYBODY who does that).

Best-Mike

I have read Lamar's posts, and have posted my opinion. No need to plead your case, or try to intimidate (bully) me into a discussion about my observation. No need for the personal attacks, either.

I and others know who Lamar is, as well as his real name. So, saying he is afraid to let people know who he is another false accusation.

lamar is always jumping in to call someone a liar,maybe all should put him on ignore so we can have a peaceful conversation.   whitt459

I have always found Lamar’s posts to be truthful, insightful and helpful. I see Lamar offering his opinion. I do not see Lamar jumping in, anywhere, calling people a liar.

These tactics of false accusations are not wanted or warranted.    

SWR,

Maybe you should read more of Lamar's Posts. Although he does not use the word "liar" he says so much with much more elocution. He is educated and DOES have a great knowledge regarding Jesuits in the New World. He attacks ANYONE whom he thinks is disparaging his most coveted Order.

Folks in general,

I used to look forward to Lamar's and mine spirited go to's, and he was always polite in our arguments. My only gripe with him was when time after time, I provided statements and proofs that contradicted much of what he proselytized, he either ignored them or said he would look into it, and NEVER responded.

It was just this last thing that when he eloquently called people I know to be honest and truthful liars, and AGAIN completely ignored the facts of both gold and silver finds I KNOW to be real, I had had enough. I have even emailed him pictures of the finds to show that they were legitimate. I just got tired of having to make the same arguments OVER and OVER and OVER. Just like I am with women......when I'm done, I'm done.

Especially since he seems to be afraid to let people know who he is. That ALWAYS irks me (not just about him, but ANYBODY who does that).

Best-Mike

I have read Lamar's posts, and have posted my opinion. No need to plead your case, or try to intimidate (bully) me into a discussion about my observation. No need for the personal attacks, either.

I and others know who Lamar is, as well as his real name. So, saying he is afraid to let people know who he is another false accusation.

HAHAHA Bully? That's a laugh. I have always said that anyone is free to believe anyone they want to believe.

I know a LOT of people on TNet, and not one knows his name. I don't personally care, except that when someone makes very authoritative statements, it's nice to be able to know if the person making those statements is a real person, and they actually have the knowledge to make such statements.

SWR,

You yourself are quite guilty of the EXACT same things as Lamar. Time and time again, I have shown many of your statements to be false, and you either ignore the evidence I present or make some lame mumbling statement and move on. What do you have to say to that? I know. You want me to prove it! Okay, even though there are several, the one that sticks out in my mind is when I explained two different scenarios for a treasure trove recovery (one legal and one illegal), you first attacked a formula I had included (which has actually been well researched and is pretty much on the mark), made a statement that I had advised recovering a treasure trove and selling it on the black market (a blatant lie). You also said that what I posted about Uncle Sam watching you while you recover your treasure trove was "whacky". You seemed to completely ignore the IRS Forms I posted to show you that you were mistaken. Even though we have occasionally been on the same side of some arguments, your belittling of people out of hand is very evident for anybody to see. All they have to do is go back through your posts. If you wish, I can provide copies of the back and forth.

You say that I am attempting to bully someone. If anyone wants to see bullying, they have only to go through your posts. When someone was attacking you for questioning their statements, I said at the time that you were absolutely free to believe anything you want (as I have done on MANY occasions to MANY people). I have never attempted to force my beliefs on ANYBODY. I argue my points and state my beliefs, but I don't belittle others for theirs (unlike yourself). The only time I bite is when I have been insulted or when I see someone giving advice that could get the recipient hurt, killed, or arrested. Anybody is welcome to read through my posts and see that what I am stating is true. If I have ever been proven wrong on any subject, I have been, and always will be the first to admit as much. Unlike others here, I am open to being PROVEN wrong. Show me where I am mistaken, because I REALLY want to learn new things. That's why I chose the "nom de plume" of Gollum. He climbed into the deepest caves under the largest mountains in order to find the truth of all things.

I will say this; I know for an absolute fact that large treasure troves exist. I admit that I got into this obsession with a bias. I was shown a picture that I had to swear to keep the contents of a secret (it is not the one I have shown people here that is in a treasure mag). This find was kept a secret and will always be a secret (if the finders ever choose to release the information that is up to them). The markings that led to the find, and some artifacts that were with the find made knowledge of who hid the cache unmistakable. I have also been fortunate to know other people who have made amazing finds (some of them publicized and some of them not). Nobody can EVER convince me that REAL treasure troves do not exist, because I KNOW different. I may occasionally be mistaken regarding facts or events, but I gladly welcome corrections (unlike others). That is why I used to enjoy the back-and-forths between Lamar and myself. My favorite one was regarding Father Joseph Och SJ's Journals. I learned some new things in that exchange. I just don't like myself or my friends being eloquently called liars. See, I have a very strong command the English Language and can understand an insult whether it is "straight up" or "round the bush".

Best-Mike

SWR,

I and others know who Lamar is, as well as his real name. So, saying he is afraid to let people know who he is another false accusation.

Not true. If you want to be taken seriously, why not let everyone know your real name. Maybe provide some proofs of your history, and evidence of why you say the things you do.

I have only ever used one TNet handle. My real name has always been Mike McChesney. Several people here know me personally. I am not prone to flights of fancy. When it comes to monuments, I admit that I have gone through three stages of interpretation.

1. When I first learned about them. I saw the hand of man at work in almost every rock and crack I saw (some people get stuck here).
2. I then moved on to being too skeptical, and dismissing some things I shouldn't have.
3. I have reached the third (and final I hope) stage, where I take everything with a grain of salt, but compare what I think may be something to what SHOULD come before and after it. Only then forming an opinion.

Best-Mike

One last thing; Since this is a thread about Chuck Kenworthy, I will say this:

There seem to be a theme of a few things that I have had to repeat ad nauseum for several years here. This is one:

"Don't pay attention to what people say. Look at what they do. Look at their actions. That will usually give you a truer vision of that person's real intentions."

Apply this statement to Charles Kenworthy. He was a millionaire many times over from the Real Estate Business in Southern California before he ever became serious about treasure hunting. His books were basically self published, meaning, he spent his own money to put some of his knowledge in the public realm. How much money do you think he realized from his book sales during his lifetime? I can tell you.....not very much. The Treasure Hunting Community is not very big, and not many people outside this community would find much interest in his books (too much technical info and no action or romance). If he wanted to make money from writing, he would have written something like Pirates of the Caribbean.

He spent a small fortune with archivists, and he also spent a great deal of his own money investigating sites all around the United States. Are those the actions of a man who lied about receiving those copies of documents? I think not.

And the biggest "Tell" (poker terminology) to me about Chuck Kenworthy's frankness regarding the subject of treasure hunting: He had seven children. Only one of which had any real interest in treasure hunting. To this day, his family felt that he abandoned them in favor of treasure hunting. That is why it is a very sore subject with his family. It is sad, but it is true. I seriously doubt that Kenworthy would have obsessed over treasure hunting as badly as he did if did not have some inside knowledge.

That last statement is also a warning to anybody who is involved in this obsession (and it is an obsession if done correctly). Disbelievers have nothing to worry about, but those of you who believe in hidden caches of gold and silver, DON'T LOSE TRACK OF YOUR OTHER TREASURES! Family and friends.  Chuck Kenworthy was like Atlantis (HAHAHA). Holding secret powerful knowledge is a magnificent thing, but misuse and obsession can lead to destruction!

I, for one, firmly believe that Chuck Kenworthy had those copies of documents he said he had. There is also another possibility that nobody has verbalized yet, that is a possibility. I won't say anything yet, until I find more information.

Best-Mike

Mike,

Consider the logistics of the King's Code.  Every mine in the New World had to adhere to it's instructions.  That meant that every miner had to have a copy of the rules and signs.  What are the chances that not a single copy survived........anywhere.  I know, the archives, but that's just a story.  It may be fact, but with all the researchers pouring over those archives, someone would have found them.

If Kenworthy had really hired Dr. Eugene Lyon to search the Spanish Archives, I could give him the benefit of the doubt.  The fact that Kenworthy lied to Roger about that "fact" is hard for me to overlook.  There was no reason for him to make up that story.  Roger was a huge fan of Kenworthy's.

No one knows why Kenworthy would make up such a story.  No one knows why he would claim to have taken gold out of the Superstitions, but the people who would know say it never happened.  Many millionaires are not happy with their lives.  Tiger Woods is a great example, but there are many others.  They feel a void in their lives and attempt to fill it.  With treasure hunters, it's often unbelievable treasures, or secrets that no one else has.  No need to point out those who have these secrets.  We deal with them every day on this forum, 'cept I doubt any of them are millionaires.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

Any time I have ever made a statement on the subject, I have always said that I highly doubt the existence of either a Jesuit Codebook or a Royal Codebook (as such). I agree with you 100% that if an actual Royal Codebook ever existed, then somehow or somewhere a copy would have turned up.

Do I believe that in remote places where mines could not be operated year round, that the owners monumented trails into and out of the mountains where their mines were located? Absolutely. Do I believe that it was such a common practice that monuments and markers were pretty standardized? Yep. Do I believe that maps into and out of the mine areas were filed with Authorities? Seen 'em. Do I drink CK's Koolaid and go along whole hog with everything he stated? Nope. Do I believe that he found (or had found for him) a rich source of gold in the Supers? Yep. Do I believe that he found 1028 silver bars presumed to be the Martyr Cache of Father Javier Saeta SJ? Yep. Seen the pics. Know where the hole is (still there). Do I believe that CK had those 116 pages of copies of Spanish Documents showing monuments and markers? Yep.

Here's what I was alluding to earlier:

DO I BELIEVE THAT CHUCK KENWORTHY MAY HAVE BEEN DEFRAUDED BY SOMEONE CLAIMING TO BE AN ARCHIVIST THAT MANUFACTURED SUCH DOCUMENTS FOR SALE? YEP! I have been privately offered such documents for sale, and upon researching the name of the person offering the documents. His name was Pavel Novak (not sure of spelling). As many people on this forum in the shipwrecks sections can attest, this man takes original documents and manufactures what you want out of them. He said that in his research for shipwrecks he had come across several documents that relate to land monuments. I had always wondered if he did that to CK. It is possible. BUT, there is one thing that flies against that notion. It is some personal knowledge that I have regarding CKs papers. It WILL take a lot more research, but the possibility is there.

Best-Mike

Mike,

That all sounds perfectly good to me.

Take care,

Joe

[Do you think that Mr Kenworthy deliberately made false or misleading statements in his book Treasure Secrets of the Lost Dutchman?]

HOLA amigos,

Gollum is not alone in his frustration with our friend Lamar, I recently reached the end of my patience with his extreme level of skepticism, Cubfan also had a similar experience.   I don't care that Lamar (or SWR or anyone whom wishes to be skeptical to the point of a state of psychological denial) but won't waste time trying to change the mind of such a person.  It is frustrating and aggravating, and life has plenty of frustration and aggravation without adding to it by endlessly debating and-or arguing with someone, trying to show them the evidence they demand but refuse to admit anything OR change their minds.  Why bother?  

Many of us here enjoy a GOOD debate, but a debate based on the simple assumption that we are arguing our points with rational, reasonably intelligent and reasoning persons.  When we find we are spending hours of time and thought presenting our points to a person whom is incapable of seeing things any way other than their own sheer disbelief, a rational person will most often quit wasting time on such a skeptic.  Life is too short, and we could be hob-nobbing with folks who do not have such extreme skepticism - or extreme fanatical beliefs for that matter.  

I am not angry with Lamar (or SWR or any other of our resident skeptics) nor do I have a bone to pick with them, but am in agreement with Mike that it is pointless to debate with them.  I find that I am in the "skeptics seat" often enough, but do try to keep an open mind as I believe most treasure hunters do.

Now to TRY to bring this post into line with our topic, as I do not know Chuck Kenworthy, let me ask Gollum a question about Mr Kenworthy.  Do you think that Mr Kenworthy deliberately made false or misleading statements in his book Treasure Secrets of the Lost Dutchman?  Whether there ARE false and/or misleading statements is not my issue, but whether there was any INTENT to mislead his readers, in other words do you think Chuck (if I may be so informal with a person I never met) was stating what he believed to be true, or if he knew otherwise and was deliberately lying.  Thank you in advance,  
Oroblanco

That is a tough one Roy! Because of some of the things I know for a fact he has found, I always tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Is it possible in my mind that he intentionally lied or misled others? Without stretching this out too much, I will say this again:

Chuck Kenworthy to the best of my knowledge was a firm believer in what he did. On the other hand, I have seen copies of letters he sent to people who had written him regarding their own sites. Some of them look like they were xeroxed copies with the names changed. Nothing specific, just something like "Looks like you have got something there. Keep up the hunt and don't give up. Treasure is out there." That's not exact, but pretty close to what I remember seeing.

People expected that since he was an expert in the field that he could answer everyone's questions about everything having to do with treaure hunting. Not wanting to disappoint fans or just ignore people when he got tired of answering questions, I think he probably had some standard verbiage he used like a form letter. I don't know that for certain, but that is my guess. I haven't written any books, but because of my posts here and my website, I get requests all the time from people wanting me to evaluate their sites and marks they have found. Can I answer all their questions all the time? Of course not, but I don't have a huge ego to satisfy, so, when I can't make anything of something, I say so. If all I see are natural cracks and nothing man made, I say that as well (funny though, I usually don't hear from those people any more). Sometimes though, I get a flash of brilliance and can make a good guess as to what something means. Occasionally I can even be pretty certain! HAHAHA

I think that there is only one person alive who can answer your question with any certainty, but I doubt he would say anything that would make his dad look bad.

Best-Mike

Thank you Mike, I really was looking for your opinion. I don't have a problem with some changed names to protect privacy or similar such falsifications, in my book this is innocent and understandable.  What kind of person would insist on absolute truthfulness in every detail, including the names of private persons whom could then be harrassed?  I would not be interested in reading such works, and the authors of such works would be liable to lawsuits for invasions of privacy etc.  Really only Kenworthy himself could say for a certainty whether he had included deliberate falsehoods or why.  Thanks again,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

No Roy,

His son Tiger would be in a position to know the answer to that, but like I said, I doubt he would ever say anything to make his dad look bad.

Best-Mike

Dear group;
First and foremost I am committed to the facts and only the facts. This philosophy holds true on any and every subject which I may broach or debate and frankly I could care less about the opinions of others in this regard. People may call me a troll or any other vile, nasty name yet the one thing they cannot say is that I am a liar.

I challenge anyone on this forum to provide proof positive that Mr. Kenworthy had located a previously undiscovered historical document which outlined a coded system of symbols and signs for the purpose of marking mines and mineral deposits. I feel quite snug in the belief that such a document will not arise to the surface simply because the very thought of Spanish or Portugues royality penning such a document would be hugely incriminating, not to mention d@mning.

And so, what did I do? I called Mr. Kenworthy a liar. Plain, pure and simple. I did that and I will not deny doing it. I did so not only because of his proclaimations of having in his possession a document pretaining to signs and symbols supposedly written by the King of Spain, but also for the MYRIAD of mistakes, errors and other outlandish claims which he has littered his works with. If the truth were to be told, it's rather difficult to locate an historical accurate fact in any of Mr. Kenworthy's works.

If anyone thinks this to be untrue, then I challenge that person to put up a page, ANY page, from one of Mr. Kenworthy's books and I will quite cheerfully shoot down the statements written upon it, in flames.

On another note, my opinions are exactly that. They are OPINIONS! That I base my opinions entirely upon historical FACTS and not popular tripe should say something about who is a troll and who isn't. Also, my opinions are 100% free and I've never once asked for a dime or a favor for any of them before, unlike people such as Mr. Kenworthy who seemed to have made a decent living from peddling untruths. Again, this should say something about who is a troll and who isn't a troll.

Also, I am not a skeptic merely because I refuse to believe in treasure tales. I prefer to ground my searches in cold hard indisputable facts rather than base them on fanciful yarns and the beliefs of others. This is not skepticism gentlemen, this is realism. Merely wishing for a lost mine or treasure cache to appear is not enough to make it so. Only dedicated research will assist one in their search.

In closing I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for their contributions to this and all the other forum topics and for supporting me. From the very bottom of my Gregorian chanting heart, I thank each and every one. May God bless all and keep you safe in His hands.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[I refuse to believe in treasure tales]

Lamar wrote

People may call me a troll or any other vile, nasty name yet the one thing they cannot say is that I am a liar.

I don't care if someone calls ME a liar - heck I've been told I was a natural born example!    I have no intention of calling you any such names Lamar, you are what you are and as Popeye would say, "I yam what I yam". 

Lamar also wrote

I called Mr. Kenworthy a liar.

It is easy to cast aspersions upon the dead man, and it is even popular today to "kick the dead lion" - attempting to assassinate the characters of MANY prominent historical figures.  Not to say that Mr Kenworthy is necessarily a "prominent historical figure" but he cannot defend himself nor present his evidence against these types of accusations.  I am guilty of this same act (kicking those dead lions) but try to avoid it.  I have serious doubts about any kind of "official" or "Royal" treasure code, but would NOT say it must be impossible simply because I have failed to find any supporting evidence that it exists.  Anything is possible, and IF this "code" were not intended for public consumption (this would be assuming that most of our modern treasure hunters have misinterpreted the original intent of such a code) then I would even say that in the case of a king directly owning a mine he did not want to become public knowledge, it would make sense for that king - be he Spanish, Portuguese, French or whatever, to have his own PRIVATE "code" system.

Lamar also wrote

I am not a skeptic merely because I refuse to believe in treasure tales.

Not believing in "treasure tales" really helps cut down on the number of treasures one has to go hunt for, and your constant work to dissuade our readers is doing a bang-up job of keeping the competition down, so keep at it! Now if you could just convince ALL of our readers that there never were any lost treasures, no lost mines and any gold or silver they find is pyrites but your online friend Oroblanco will be happy to take it off their hands, we will make tremendous progress!    We could even put it into a chant form, to reinforce the belief - just have our readers say to themselves repeatedly, "There are no such things as lost treasures, there are no such things as lost treasures..."

Lamar also wrote

In closing I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for their contributions to this and all the other forum topics and for supporting me. From the very bottom of my Gregorian chanting heart, I thank each and every one. May God bless all and keep you safe in His hands.

Well thank YOU amigo for all of the great historical information you have selflessly provided to our readers!  I was going to simply write "Ditto" but for that part about the Gregorian chanting, which is not in my heart so it would be a falsehood and everyone hates falsehoods.  Gregorian chanting eh? Now if someone were to put two and two together, such as your mention of your vows of honesty, former marital status, even poetic nature, a person might get the impression you were a member of some religious order.  See how easily  folks can get the wrong ideas? 

I had in mind to ask you about a particular Castilian priest who was working in Arizona in the 1770's but that would be drifting off topic and this post is long enough already.  Good luck and good hunting amigos (including you Lamar) I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
 

Funny quote there Roy!

I called Mr Kenworthy a liar.

Funny how someone who claims to have taken a "vow of honesty" can call someone whom they have never met nor had ANY dealings with a liar. Funny thing, huh?

Like you said. Its' so easy to defame a person who is not here to speak in his own defense. Maybe if Lamar has some hard evidence of his own that proves CK was a liar, his words wouldn't seem so empty or hollow, devoid of integrity even. Intellectually dishonest even. Although, it does give an idea of one's character.

I have said it before, I don't know everything about CK. I don't know as much as many people, but I have PERSONALLY found no evidence of deceit on his part regarding treasure hunting. I can assure everybody that should I ever find any incontrovertible evidence of such actions, I will shout it to the heavens. I have done it for several other famous treasure hunting authors, and would not hesitate to do it to any others I find.

Best-Mike

Best-Mike

Another thing.

A very good, moral, and honest Born Again Christian, who has a more extensive technical background than ANYONE here seems to hold CK in very high regard. He knew him for many years and was with CK on many treasure hunting expeditions all over the world. His name is Lambert Dolphin. The former head research scientist for the Stanford Research Institute (SRI). One of the fathers of modern Ground Penetrating Radar. He is also a long time treasure hunter.

Best-Mike

[I believe that whatever falsifications he did or wrote, were done out of his own personal beliefs]

Gollum wrote

Funny how someone who claims to have taken a "vow of honesty" can call someone whom they have never met nor had ANY dealings with a liar. Funny thing, huh?

I do find that peculiar at the least.  But then a lot of folks say I am pretty danged "peculiar" too, so I can't get any mileage out of it!      Our amigo Lamar is one of our resident skeptics, whose stated mission is to "shoot down theories" but not willing to change his views regardless of what evidence or argument is presented, so I have some doubt as to his status as "unbiased observer" - which makes me question his posts.

I am guilty of that same 'sin' - casting aspersions on a dead man, a VERY popular treasure hunter and author <Barry Storm> but in his defense I will say this - I believe that whatever falsifications he did or wrote, were done out of his own personal beliefs in order to promote the legends (and indirectly, Arizona and the Superstition Mountains) and NOT as any attempt to deliberately fool people for gain or laughs.  There is a huge difference (in my view) between a person who tells a lie he knows is a lie and has no such belief in, and one who tells a falsehood that he personally believes to be true and correct.  Since Mr Kenworthy was financially successful OUTSIDE of book-writing, and based on what you (Mike) have told me of him as a man, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt concerning any erroneous information he published.

Oroblanco

Mike,

What you say is true, but Kenworthy did lie to a good friend of mine.  I spoke to Dr. Eugene Lyon and confirmed that he never worked for Chuck, and had never heard of the "King's Code".  Despite that I believe most of the people who had personal contact with Chuck respected and liked him.

Many of the Dutch Hunters who were at Pro Mac in 1993, have told me they were embarrassed for the man.  Once you see the DVD, you may have another opinion than they did.

Tiger was in the Superstition Mountains three years ago, so he is still following in his father's footsteps.
There was no public fanfare, that I know of, but he was there.

Most of the time, there is no explanation for why men do what they do.  I believe, often, even they don't know.

Take care,

Joe

[for gain]

Roy,

"I believe that whatever falsifications he did or wrote, were done out of his own personal beliefs in order to promote the legends (and indirectly, Arizona and the Superstition Mountains) and NOT as any attempt to deliberately fool people for gain or laughs."

Barry Storm's "Thunder God's Gold" was my first book on the subject, as well as the first book my Uncle Chuck read.  He was hooked immediately and so was I.  For many years, his word was Gospel for me.  Fifty-two years later, I have come to realize that he never lost sight of the dollar and there was a great deal of fiction created by the man........and sold as historical fact.

Check your personal messages.

Take care,

Joe

CJ,

Just curious - but are speaking of the Senior or Junior (Kenworthy)?

B

Hi Beth,

Chuck Senior.  On the other hand, I have been told that Tiger ghostwrote Seniors books.

Take care,

Joe

[are you saying that Barry Storm did not believe there were treasures and/or lost mines in the Superstitions?]

Cactusjumper wrote

Barry Storm's "Thunder God's Gold" was my first book on the subject, as well as the first book my Uncle Chuck read.  He was hooked immediately and so was I.  For many years, his word was Gospel for me.  Fifty-two years later, I have come to realize that he never lost sight of the dollar and there was a great deal of fiction created by the man........and sold as historical fact.

Perhaps I ought not have included "gain" but heck all prospectors and most treasure hunters are out for gain, so he may have had his own agenda for profit, but Joe are you saying that Barry Storm did not believe there were treasures and/or lost mines in the Superstitions? Thank you in advance, 
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Roy,

No.  Barry Storm was a treasure hunter, and we all know there is treasure.....everywhere.

Take care,

Joe

Roy,

No.  Barry Storm was a treasure hunter, and we all know there is treasure.....everywhere.

Take care,

Joe

Especially in people's pockets - just ask Crazy Jake   (sorry couldn't resist)

Dear cactusjumper;
My offer to expose Mr. Kenworthy for the charaltan that I feel he was still stands. It seems that certain forum members wish for me to prove my claims, which should be naught but a walk in the park for anyone who is even halfway grounded in Western US history. It does not have to be about any specific topic or subject either. Just a random page from one of Mr. Kenworthy's rather dillusional tomes will suffice to prove my point.

That the man could not seem to accurately name the oldest Cathedral in the Western USA, nor properly place it's position in the then village, nor even the year which it was constructed nor the original religious Order whom constructed the building should state something about the man's undying need for historical (in)accuracies.

If anyone wishes to see for themselves that what I am stating is in fact the truth, then my offer stands. It does not matter a whit whether he is dead or alive, as his written words remain behind for us to judge and judge them I shall. When someone crosses the line and starts to write false and/or inaccurate statements about my religion and what we've supposedly done, or did not do, then that person should expect others to call him on the carpet, my friend.

Someone can write that the LDM was discovered by aliens from another galaxy with Elvis Presley as their leader and Jesse James as their foreman and I could honestly care less, but when they involve the Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans, Templars, Hospitallers, or any other Roman Catholic religious Order then I will involve myself in the discourse very quickly.

To my way of thinking, these unfounded accusations reek of anti-Catholicism and this is one prejudice which I will not allow without interjecting the facts of the subject into the discussions. Again, my offer remains open and valid to any and all who wish to participate.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar,

I believe the Jesuits did engage in mining and left behind coded information to find some of the things ( gold, silver ) they hid. That is my OPINION which I am entitled to have, just like yours I believe it to be true

Rochha

Lamar,

I believe the Jesuits did engage in mining and left behind coded information to find some of the things ( gold, silver ) they hid. That is my OPINION which I am entitled to have, just like yours I believe it to be true

Rochha

Dear Rochha;
Absolutely awesome my friend, however I do have but a single question to ask of you. Can you happen to prove ANY of that statement which you've made previously? Granted I am NOT asking you to prove the entire statement, only a single portion of it. The choice of which portion you choose to verify is entirely yours, of course, just to make things fair, although you, me and all other interested parties already know the answer, don't we? By all means, please feel free to place your finances wherein your mouth happens to be situated.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar,

“ By all means, please feel free to place your finances wherein your mouth happens to be situated. “

I have not seen you do that either, all you have said and done is based on your word. What you believe to be true. You have provided no proof that they have not. All you have done is say things that has come from where your mouth is situated too.

Rochha

Rochha,

Are you asking Lamar to disprove.......Legends?  How would you go about finding evidence that the Jesuits did not have treasures, or mines?  It would seem to me that the only way to do that, is through historical writings and documents.  I know you have studied the history of the Jesuit Order in the New World, so that is the only negative evidence (for your side) you have seen.  That evidence is voluminous.

Since I know you have already seen/read Lamar's (historical writings) evidence against such Jesuit treasures or activities, the next step in your debate is to produce some evidence for your own belief.  At that point, we weigh the two sides.  Is it your contention that your side will outweigh Lamar's?  Since neither side can produce physical evidence beyond stories and writings, shouldn't we give more consideration to the weight of the collective evidence?

It's always possible that some Jesuits may have stepped over the line.  If that is the case, you should present the evidence for the individual rather than paint the entire Jesuit Order with that broad brush.  First give us the priest, the era, the place and the treasure.  In that way, we can examine the evidence one case/point at a time.

Lamar's evidence is a positive.  You are asking him to prove a negative.  He is asking you to prove a positive, that Jesuit treasure/mines existed.  Lets see your proof that such Jesuit treasure ever existed.  At that point, we can compare the two.

Thanks, and take care,

Joe

Lamar you wrote,

“ First and foremost I am committed to the facts and only the facts “

“The search for treasure first begins with the search for the FACTS “

“ By all means, do whatever you feel necessary, however that will NOT change the facts of the matter, which are these. There does NOT exist a single shred of documented proof where the King of Spain, or anyone else, outlined a system of secret codes, symbols and markings in order to facilitate the re-discovery of mines and/or minerals, should they have been abandoned. “

When someone uses the word “ fact “ as many times as he has vs. someone using the phrase “ I believe “ and the words “ possibility “ and “ opinion “ which I believe I have done. The burden of proof is on the one who uses the word “ facts “. He has shown nothing as far as facts, we are taking his word. Just as we are taking Mikes word at the information that has been entrusted to him about treasure found using coded information. This all boils down to beliefs, everybody is entitled to their own. I respect Lamars opinion, but that is all it is to me……..an opinion, certainly not gospel ( no pun intended ). If my opinion ruffles the feathers on his black robe that is something he will have to get over. If he wants to step up to the podium and let his knowledge flow from wherin his mouth is that's his right. What ever he has to say wont sway my opinion. I too have been shown things that I can not expand on.

I by no means am an expert and dont claim to be. Lamar speaks as if he can not possibly be wrong on anything. Any one reading my posts, I could be wrong. Yes he is an intelligent man, but he is NOT the final word on any of this and neither am I. Everyone is free to choose their own beliefs.

Rochha

Lamar you wrote,

“ First and foremost I am committed to the facts and only the facts “

“The search for treasure first begins with the search for the FACTS “

“ By all means, do whatever you feel necessary, however that will NOT change the facts of the matter, which are these. There does NOT exist a single shred of documented proof where the King of Spain, or anyone else, outlined a system of secret codes, symbols and markings in order to facilitate the re-discovery of mines and/or minerals, should they have been abandoned. “

When someone uses the word “ fact “ as many times as he has vs. someone using the phrase “ I believe “ and the words “ possibility “ and “ opinion “ which I believe I have done. The burden of proof is on the one who uses the word “ facts “. He has shown nothing as far as facts, we are taking his word. Just as we are taking Mikes word at the information that has been entrusted to him about treasure found using coded information. This all boils down to beliefs, everybody is entitled to their own. I respect Lamars opinion, but that is all it is to me……..an opinion, certainly not gospel ( no pun intended ). If my opinion ruffles the feathers on his black robe that is something he will have to get over. If he wants to step up to the podium and let his knowledge flow from wherin his mouth is that's his right. What ever he has to say wont sway my opinion. I too have been shown things that I can not expand on.

I by no means am an expert and dont claim to be. Lamar speaks as if he can not possibly be wrong on anything. Any one reading my posts, I could be wrong. Yes he is an intelligent man, but he is NOT the final word on any of this and neither am I. Everyone is free to choose their own beliefs.

Rochha

Dear Rochha;
I may very well be wrong and now is your chance to PROVE me wrong, my friend! For the love of God I do hope that you brought something more with you to this table than a mere OPINION! Please tell me that you have SOME historical documentation to back up your opinion that the Jesuits:
A) Illegally or illicitly mined gold and/or silver in the New World colonies and that they
B) Left behind coded evidence of their immoral activities.

Please, please please tell me that you have SOMETHING viable at your disposal, such as a previously unknown document or even the diary of a Jesuit missionary in order to substantiate your opinions. In my very humble point of view, if your opinion means enough to you for you state such on a open forum then certainly you have something, ANYTHING to back up your opinion, other than fiction, tales, myths, accustations, half-truths and outright lies in your arsenal my friend.

If you have the ability to read and comprehend, then you are very welcomed to research the troves of historical documentation for some evidence, ANY evidence that the Jesuits actually did ANY of the things which they've been accused of. It's difficult for me to PROVE that the Jesuits did not do something which they did not do in the first place, such as me being able to prove that I've never piloted a spaceship before. I've never done this nor have I claimed to have done it, therefore why do I need to PROVE that I did not do it? Also, HOW would I be able to prove that I've never done it and perhaps most important, WHY would I need to prove something so preposterous and ridiculous as this? How does one provide proof that something does not exist in the first place? The mere idea of such a notion hints of very linear and two-dimensional thinking.

Your current position is one which uses the classic argument from ignor@nce, my friend. You state that:
A) Because guilt cannot be proven, the party in question must therefore be guilty of the crime
B) There is no proof of of innocence, therefore the party in question must be guilty

The fact is that there does not exist any proof of illegal activities in regards to the Jesuits illegal mining ventures, therefore they MUST be assumed to be innocent. This very same thought process mirrors our own legal system, that being that a person is always to be presumed innocent until PROVEN guilty. If you cannot provide the proof, you must therefore assume the party in question to be innocent of the charges.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Rochha;
You wrote:
I too have been shown things that I can not expand on.

Why does my mouth not fly open, all aghast at such a revelation, my friend? Perhaps because I have heard this very same claim a time or two before? It seems that NOBODY can expound upon anything related to the nefarious deeds of the Jesuits, yet they can expound just enough in order to condemn them. Perhaps you can expound  just enough to answer this question for me, my friend?
Your friend;
LAMAR

Charlie,

We are all here giving our opinions.  In the process, we are all trying to show the value of those opinions.  That would, of course, include you.  Lamar's opinions are based on historical documents and records from the era and places in question.  That information is available to everyone.  He does not need to fall back on......I believe what I have been told by a reliable source, or I have the facts, but I can't reveal them at this time.  He does not need to resort to, I have seen, but what I saw was not available to the general public.....etc.

As I have said before, I know you have read that history.  While it is your right to reject it, you can't replace it with anything better.  It remains the "Best Evidence".  That written history does not stand alone in single documents or records.  It is supported by many other matching accounts.  

Both you and Mike can provide singular stories without any supporting corroboration or evidence.  What you provide instead, can be found any day in any treasure magazine.  Those accounts can't be found in any history books, because they are, mostly, modern day inventions.
There is always a perfectly good explanation of why the treasure or mine can't be produced for examination.  Throughout the years it has always been......same story......different day.

On the other hand, you may both have the true story.

Take care,

Joe

About the Jesuits and any wrong-doing - gee, I think there was a reason the King of Spain ordered them out, 1767, the King of France 1764 and the King of Portugal in 1759.

Not to mention the "Church" (the Pope) who ordered them disbanded forever.  (Pope Clement XIV - July 1773).

You'd think they were ordered out for do-gooding, or do you think that maybe - just maybe - they had their reasons for doing so???

Also, you would think that the fact that the Indians, who massacred as many Jesuits as they could find when they got tired of doing their mining is not a GLARING
example of their activities.  The Indians loved the Franciscans that came after the Jesuits - specifically because they were treated well and not stuck in more slavery.

The Franciscans even wrote about how surprised they were by the Indians moderate demeanor and friendly attitudes.  They were also shocked that the Pima's and the Papagos were not in the least bit indoctrinated with the "faith". 

B

Dear mrs.oroblanco;
According to the historical record, you are incorrect, not about one or two points, but all of them. In fact, I've already gone over everything which you've accused the Jesuits of, many times in the past and I have neither the time nor inclination to cover that particular piece of ground yet again, however if you would be so kind as to immerse yourself in the historical facts of the matters, starting with Pope Clement XIV, whom you've stated "disbanded them forever" I believe that you will find the actual facts to be a bit different than your current perception of historical reality.

Allow me to start me you out in the right direction. First, the Society of Jesus was never *disbanded forever* the Society was supressed. Supression is completely different from complete and total disbandment, as supression restricts the activities of the Order's members and does not permit the Society to accept new noviates, or itseverely restricts the amount of noviates.

To date, the only religious Order that has been * disbanded forever* by the Vatican were the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon, better known as the Knights Templars.

It would most definitely behoove you to actually research the cause and effect of the events leading up to the supression and ultimate restoration of the Society of Jesus and not rely so heavily on the accusations which others have made before you.

Also, in an tireless effort to put you onto the right track, the Papal Bull which supressed the Jesuits is titled Dominus ac Redemptor Noster and it was signed by Pope Clement XVI in Rome on July 21st, 1773.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear mrs.oroblanco;
As living proof the Jesuits were never *disbanded forever*, we only need look at the current Society of Jesus. That they continue to exist and function is the same capacity and manner prior to their supression is proof positive that the Order was suppressed and not disbanded. If the Order had been disbanded permanently then it would have never arisen again, as was the case of the Templars. Once a decree has been signed by a Pontiff, a succeeding Pontiff cannot rescind the decree, only add to the decree or clarify a murky point.

How many sites do you want me to post to prove you wrong?

B

Dear mrs.oroblanco;
By all means, feel free to do whatever you feel necessary.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Charlie,

We are all here giving our opinions.  In the process, we are all trying to show the value of those opinions.  That would, of course, include you.  Lamar's opinions are based on historical documents and records from the era and places in question.  That information is available to everyone.  He does not need to fall back on......I believe what I have been told by a reliable source, or I have the facts, but I can't reveal them at this time.  He does not need to resort to, I have seen, but what I saw was not available to the general public.....etc.

As I have said before, I know you have read that history.  While it is your right to reject it, you can't replace it with anything better.  It remains the "Best Evidence".  That written history does not stand alone in single documents or records.  It is supported by many other matching accounts.  

Both you and Mike can provide singular stories without any supporting corroboration or evidence.  What you provide instead, can be found any day in any treasure magazine.  Those accounts can't be found in any history books, because they are, mostly, modern day inventions.

Joe,

You couldn't be more mistaken here!

First (for the umpteenth time), I give you the words of ..................

You know what? I see the road this is beginning to go down for the millionth time. Instead of hijacking the thread with the old Jesuit discussion, I will pu together a brand new thread with a lot of evidence I have amassed that shows what you have posted (Joe) is incorrect.

I recommend stopping the Jesuit discussion here, and keep an eye out for a Jesuit Treasures Thread. It will take me a while, because I have to dig through links and about 50 folders on my PC.

Best-Mike