Book: Treasure Secrets of the LD by Kenworthy , 1997

I will start here:

The disbandment of the Order  
  While the initial argument of the Jesuits to its involvement in trade was to corrupt and hamper the activities of Protestant trade, in reality it was Catholic nations who were most upset. Added to the Jesuit woes was the increasing danger to the Order from its duties as chief assassins. Every time a new King or Queen died under their watch, the noble families of Europe became more agitated.  
  But it was the Jesuit control of education and suppression of liberalism that was to lead to their disbandment. While Protestant nations lept ahead in commerce, industry and education, the Catholic states continued to lose control. Spain, Portugal, the states of Italy and even France had all watched with indignity while England, Germany, Russia and the other Northern European states had grown in wealth and prestige.  
  In 1758 the minister of Joseph I of Portugal (1750–77), the Marquis of Pombal, expelled the Jesuits from Portugal, and shipped them en masse to Civitavecchia, as a "gift for the Pope." In 1764, King Louis XV of France expelled the Jesuits.
  By 1769, the movement to expel the Jesuits had grown in such momentum that there was a real risk the Papal Estates might also be taken. Pope Clement XIII called for a consistory in order to disband the Jesuits, including the preparation of a Papal Bull for the pronouncement. But on February 2, 1769 the night before the Bull to disband the Jesuits was due to be promulgated, General Lorenzo Ricci had the Pope murdered.


How convenient for the Jesuits.

His successor, Pope Clement XIV, himself trained by the Jesuits, was more strategic. In July 1773, Pope Clement XIV signed the order Dominus ac Redemptor to disband the Jesuits and their churches and assets were seized in simultaneous raids. In exchange, Pope Clement was given back Avignon and Benevento to the Papal states for "services rendered" to the Royal houses.  
  The suppression took General Ricci completely by surprise but before he could retaliate, he was arrested on August 17 and imprisoned at Castel Sant'Angelo in Rome. But on September 22, 1774 Ricci successfully had Pope Clement XIV assassinated at the age of 68. Ricci remained imprisoned and died there on November 24, 1775 after 15 years as General


Gee, murder again.







 

Source please     

Dear SWR;
Source, my friend??? Who cares about the source when the writing is clearly anti-Catholic rhetoric and cannot be taken seriously. It's not merely funny, it's laughably so, and it was obviously written by one of those far out in left field conspiracy theorist who is long on theory and very short on facts. This sort of drivel cannot be taken seriously by ANY historian and it's disgraceful to even bother replying to such a tirade of falseness.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Note - the years of 1763 in this Illinois timeline.

Now, I realize that the "Society of Jesus" was "reincarnated" - 41 years later - but that does not erase the earlier years.

http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/athome/1700/timeline/index.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,945242-7,00.html

http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jmac/sj/sjhist.htm       -  -  a little over halfway down the page, the expulsion of the Jesuits


I have many, many, more.

Denying real history is a exercise in futility, Lamar.  It makes one wonder what else you can close your eyes to.

B

Dear SWR;
Source, my friend??? Who cares about the source when the writing is clearly anti-Catholic rhetoric and cannot be taken seriously. It's not merely funny, it's laughably so, and it was obviously written by one of those far out in left field conspiracy theorist who is long on theory and very short on facts. This sort of drivel cannot be taken seriously by ANY historian and it's disgraceful to even bother replying to such a tirade of falseness.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Oh...I know. I find it hard to believe that anybody would use a known conspiracy theorist website...such as one evil.org as a reliable reference.

Do you find museums, state histories and universities unrealiable?  The links I posted are from these very sources.

B

Do you find museums, state histories and universities unrealiable?  The links I posted are from these very sources.

B

Your first copy/paste was from one evil.org....the links you have provided are weak...at best. The editorial from Time Magazine is just plain humorous

Dear SWR;
That a person would make surmations about Pope Clement XIII having been assassinated by the Jesuits is absurd when it was Clement XIII who praised the Jesuits usefulness, their dedication and devotion to the Church and their other qualities. In short Pope Clement XIII was the Jesuits most staunchy ally at the Vatican and along comes some fruticake who writes that the Superior General of the Order had the Pope murdered? And intelligent people are supposed to believe this? Incredible, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear SWR;
I fail to understand the signifigance of all the links, my friend. If public opinion counts for anything then perhaps mrs.oroblanco would have a valid point, however no amount of public opinion changes the facts. Instead of posting all of those worthless links, why not post a copy of the document Dominus ac Redemptor Noster??? In fact, I'll be happy to post the English translation of said document right now, and of course I can also post the original Latin text for those who are so interested in reading it in it's original form:
"Jesus Christ, our Saviour and Redeemer, was foretold by the prophets as the Prince of Peace: the angels proclaimed him under the same title to the shepherds at his first appearance upon earth; he afterwards made himself known repeatedly as the sovereign pacificator; and he recommended peace to his disciples before his ascension to heaven.

"Having reconciled all things to God his Father, having pacified by his blood and by his cross everything which is contained in heaven and in earth, he recommended to his apostles the ministry of reconciliation, and bestowed on them the gift of tongues, that they might publish it; that they might become ministers and envoys of Christ, who is not the God of discord, but of peace and love; that they might announce this peace to all the earth, and direct their efforts to this chief point, that all men, being regenerated in Christ, might preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace; might consider themselves as one body and one soul, as called to one and the same hope, to one and the same vocation, at which, according to St Gregory, we can never arrive, unless we run in concert with our brethren. The same word of reconciliation, this same ministry, is recommended to us by God in a particular manner. Ever since we were raised (without any personal merit) to the chair of St Peter, we have called these duties to mind day and night; we have had them without ceasing before our eyes; they are deeply engraven on our heart; and we labour to the utmost of our power to satisfy and to fulfil them. To this effect we implore without ceasing the protection and the aid of God, that he would inspire us and all his flock with counsels of peace, and open to us the road which leads to it. We know, besides, that we are established by the Divine Providence over kingdoms and nations, in order to pluck up, destroy, disperse, dissipate, plant, or nourish, as may best conduce to the right cultivation of the vineyard of Sabaoth, and to the. preservation of the edifice of the Christian religion, of which Christ is the chief corner-stone. In consequence hereof, we have ever thought, and been constantly of opinion, that, as it is our duty carefully to plant and nourish whatever may conduce in any manner to the repose and tranquility of the Christian republic, so the bond of mutual charity requires that we be equally ready and disposed to pluck up and destroy even the things which are most agreeable to us, and of which we cannot deprive ourselves without the highest regret and the most pungent sorrow.

"It is beyond a doubt, that among the things which contribute to the good and happiness of the Christian republic, the religious orders hold, as it were, the first place. It was for this reason that the Apostolic See, which owes its lustre and support to these orders, has not only approved, but endowed them with many exemptions, privileges, and faculties, in order that they might be so much the more excited to the cultivation of piety and religion; to the direction of the manners of the people, both by their instructions and their examples; to the preservation and confirmation of the unity of the faith among the believers. But if, at any time, any of these religious orders did not cause these abundant fruits to prosper among the Christian people, did not produce those advantages which were hoped for at their institution; if at any time they seemed disposed rather to trouble than maintain the public tranquility; the same Apostolic See, which had availed itself of its own authority to establish these orders, did not hesitate to reform them by new laws, to recall them to their primitive institution, or even totally to abolish them where it has seemed necessary.

[Here follows a long list of religious orders suppressed by different Popes, without giving them the opportunity of clearing themselves from the accusations brought against them. It then proceeds as follows:—]

"We, therefore, having these and other such examples before our eyes, examples of great weight and high authority—animated, besides, with a lively desire of walking with a safe conscience and a firm step in the deliberations of which we shall speak hereafter—have omitted no care, no pains, in order to arrive at a thorough knowledge of the origin, the progress, and the actual state of that regular order commonly called 'The Company of Jesus.' In the course these investigations, we have seen that the holy founder of the order did institute it for the salvation of souls, the conversion of heretics and infidels, and, in short, for the greater advancement of piety and religion. And, in order to attain more surely and happily so laudable a design, he consecrated himself rigorously to God, by an absolute vow of evangelical poverty, with which to bind the Society in general, and each individual in particular, except only the colleges in which polite literature and other branches of knowledge were to be taught, and which were allowed to possess property, but so that no part of their revenues could ever be applied to the use of the said Society in general. It was under these and other holy restrictions that the Company of Jesus was approved by the Pope Paul III., our predecessor of blessed memory, by his letter sub plumbo, dated 27th September 1540.

[Here Clement enumerates the other Popes who had either confirmed the privileges already granted to the Society, or had explained and augmented them.]

"Notwithstanding so many and so great favours, it appears from the apostolical Constitutions, that, almost at the very moment of its institution, their arose in the bosom of this Society divers seeds of discord and dissension, not only among the companions themselves, but with other regular orders, the secular clergy, the academies; the universities, the public schools, and lastly, even with the princes of the states in which the Society was received.

"These dissensions and disputes arose sometimes concerning the nature of their vows, the time of admission to them, the power of expulsion, the right of admission to holy orders without a sufficient title, and without having taken the solemn vows, contrary to the tenor of the decrees of the Council of Trent, and of Pius V., our predecessor; sometimes concerning the absolute authority assumed by the General of the said order, and on matters relating to the good government and discipline of the order; sometimes concerning different points of doctrine concerning their schools, or such of their exemptions and privileges as the ordinaries and other civil or ecclesiastical officers declared to be contrary to their rights and jurisdiction. In short, accusations of the greatest nature, and very detrimental to the peace and tranquility of the Christian republic, have been continually received against the said order. Hence the origin of that infinity of appeals and protests against this Society, which so many sovereigns have laid at the foot of the throne of our predecessors Paul IV., Pius V., and Sixtus V.

"Among the princes who have thus appealed, is Philip II., King of Spain, of glorious memory, who laid before Sixtus V. not only the reasons of complaint which he had, but also those alleged by the inquisitors of his kingdom, against the excessive privileges of the Society, and the form of their government. He desired likewise that the Pope should be acquainted with the heads of accusation laid against the Society, and confirmed by some of its own members remarkable for their learning and piety, and demanded that the Society should undergo an apostolic visitation. Sixtus V., convinced that these demands and solicitations of Philip were just and well founded, did, without hesitation, comply therewith; and, in consequence, named a bishop of distinguished prudence, virtue, and learning, to be apostolical visitor, and at the same time deputed a congregation of cardinals to examine this matter.

"But this pontiff having been carried off by a premature death, this wise undertaking remained without effect. Gregory XIV. being raised to the supreme apostolic chair, approved, in its utmost extent, the institution of the Society, by his letter, sub plumbo, dated the 28th of July 1591. He confirmed all the privileges which had been granted by any of his predecessors to the Society, and particularly the power of expelling and dismissing any of its members, without any previous form of process, information, act, or delay; upon the sole view of the truth of the fact, and the nature of the crime, from a sufficient motive, and a due regard of persons and circumstances. He ordained, and that under pain of excommunication, that all proceedings against the Society should be quashed, and that no person whatever should presume, directly or indirectly, to attack the institution, constitutions, or decrees of the said Society, or attempt in any manner whatever to make any changes therein. To each and every of the members only of the said Society, he permitted to expose and propose, either by themselves or by the legates and nuncios of the Holy See, to himself only, or the Popes his successors, whatever they should think proper to be added, modified, or changed in their institution.

"Who would have thought that even these dispositions should prove ineffectual towards appeasing the cries and appeals against the Society? On the contrary, very violent disputes arose on all sides concerning the doctrine of the Society, which many represented as contrary to the orthodox faith and to sound morals. The dissensions among themselves, and with others, grew every day more animated; the accusations against the Society were multiplied without number, and especially with that insatiable avidity of temporal possessions with which it was reproached. Hence the rise not only of those well-known troubles which brought so much care and solicitude upon the Holy See, but also of the resolutions which certain sovereigns took against the said order.

"It resulted that, instead of obtaining from Paul V., of blessed memory, a fresh confirmation of its institute and privileges, the Society was reduced to ask of him that he would condescend to ratify and confirm, by his authority, certain decrees formed in the Fifth General Congregation of the Company, and transcribed word for word in the Brief of the said Pope, bearing date September 4, 1606. In these decrees, it is plainly acknowledged that the dissensions and internal revolts of the said companions, together with the demands and appeals of strangers, had obliged the said companions assembled in congregation to enact the following statute, namely:

" 'The Divine Providence having raised up our Society for the propagation of the Faith, and the gaining of souls, the said Society can, by the rules of its own institute, which are its spiritual arms, arrive happily, under the standard of the Cross, at the end which it has proposed for the good of the Church and the edification of our neighbours. But the said Society would prevent the effect of these precious goods, and expose them to the most imminent dangers, if it concerned itself with temporal matters, and which relate to political affairs and the administration of government; in consequence whereof, it has been wisely ordained by our superiors and ancients, that, confining ourselves to combat for the glory of God, we should not concern ourselves with matters foreign to our profession but whereas, in these times of difficulty and danger, it has happened, through the fault perhaps of certain individuals, through ambition and intemperate zeal, that our institute has been ill spoken of in divers places, and before divers sovereigns, whose affection and good-will the Father Ignatius, of holy memory, thought we should preserve for the good of the service of God; and whereas a good reputation is indispensably necessary to make the vineyard of Christ bring forth fruits; in consequence hereof, our congregation has resolved that we shall abstain from all appearance of evil, and remedy, as far as in our power, the evils arisen from false suspicions. To this end, and by the authority of the present decree of the said congregation, it is severely and strictly forbidden to all the members of the Society to interfere in any manner whatever in public affairs, even though they be thereto invited, or to deviate from the institute, through entreaty, persuasion, or any other motive whatever. The congregation recommends to the fathers-coadjutors; that they do propose and determine, with all diligence and speed, such further means. as they may think necessary for remedying this abuse.'

"We have seen, in the grief of our heart, that neither these remedies, nor an infinity of others, since employed, have produced their due effect, or silenced the accusations and complaints against the said Society. Our other predecessors, Urban VII., Clement IX., X., XI., and XII., and Alexander VII. and VIII., Innocent X., XII., and XIII., and Benedict XIV., employed, without effect, all their efforts to the same purpose. In vain did they endeavour, by salutary constitutions, to restore peace to the Church; as well with respect to secular affairs, with which the Company ought not to have interfered, as with regard to the missions; which gave rise to great disputes and oppositions on the part of the Company with the ordinaries, with other religious orders, about the holy places, and communities of all sorts in Europe, Africa, and America, to the great loss of souls, and great scandal of the people; as likewise concerning the meaning and practice of certain idolatrous ceremonies, adopted in certain places, in contempt of those justly approved by the Catholic Church; and further, concerning the use and explanation of certain maxims, which the Holy See has with reason proscribed as scandalous, and manifestly contrary to good morals; and, lastly, concerning other matters of great importance and prime necessity, towards preserving the integrity and purity of the doctrines of the gospel; from which maxims have resulted very great inconveniences and great detriment both in our days and in past ages; such as the revolts and intestine troubles in some of the Catholic states, persecutions against the Church, in some countries of Asia and Europe, not to mention the vexation and grating solicitude which these melancholy affairs brought on our predecessors, principally upon Innocent XI., of blessed memory, who found himself reduced to the necessity of forbidding the Company to receive any more novices; and afterwards upon Innocent XIII., who was obliged to threaten the Company with the same punishment; and, lastly, upon Benedict XIV., who took the resolution of ordaining a general visitation of all the houses and colleges of the Company in the kingdom of our dearly beloved son in Jesus Christ, the most faithful King of Portugal.

" The late apostolic letter of Clement XIII., of blessed memory, our immediate predecessor, by which the institute of the Company of Jesus was again approved and recommended, was far from bringing any comfort to the Holy See, or any advantage to the Christian republic. Indeed this letter was rather extorted than granted, to use the expression of Gregory X. in the above-named General Council of Lyons.

"After so many storms, troubles, and divisions, every good man looked forward with impatience to the happy day which was to restore peace and tranquility. But under the reign of this same Clement XIII. the times became more difficult and tempestuous; complaints and quarrels were multiplied on every side; in some places dangerous sedition arose, tumults, discords, dissension, scandals, which, weakening or entirely breaking the bonds of Christian charity, excited the faithful to all the rage of party hatreds and enmities. Desolation and danger grew to such a height, that the very sovereigns, whose piety and liberality towards the Company were so well known as to be looked upon as hereditary in their families—we mean our dearly beloved sons in Christ, the Kings of France, Spain, Portugal, and Sicily found themselves reduced to the necessity of expelling and driving from their states, kingdoms, and provinces, these very Companions of Jesus persuaded that there remained no other remedy to so great evils; and that this step was necessary in order to prevent the Christians from rising one against another, and from massacring each other in the very bosom of our common mother the Holy Church. The said our dear sons in Jesus Christ having since considered that even this remedy would not be sufficient towards reconciling the whole Christian world, unless the said Society was absolutely abolished and suppressed, made known their demands and wills in this matter to our said predecessor Clement VIII. They united their common prayers and authority to obtain that this last method might be put in practice, as the only one capable of assuring the constant repose of their subjects, and the good of the Catholic Church in general. But the unexpected death of the aforesaid pontiff rendered this project abortive.

"As soon as by the divine mercy and providence we were raised to the chair of St Peter, the same prayers, demands, and wishes were laid before us, and strengthened by the pressing solicitations of many bishops, and other persons of distinguished rank, learning, and piety, but, that we might choose the wisest course in an affair of so much importance, we determined not to be precipitate, but to take due time; not only to examine attentively, weigh carefully, and wisely debate, but also, by unceasing prayers, to ask of the Father of Lights his particular assistance under these circumstances; exhorting at the same time the faithful to co-operate with us by their prayers and good works in obtaining this needful succour.

"And first of all we proposed to examine upon what grounds rested the common opinion, that the institute of the Clerks of the Company of Jesus had been approved and confirmed in an especial manner by the Council of Trent. And we found that in the said Council nothing more was done with regard to the said Society, only to except it from the general decree, which ordained that in the other regular orders, those who had finished their novitiate, and were judged worthy of being admitted to the profession, should be admitted thereto; and that such as were not found worthy should be sent back from the monastery. The same Council declared, that it meant not to make any change or innovation in the government of the clerks of the Company of Jesus, that they might not be hindered from being useful to God and his Church, according to the intent of the pious institute approved by the Holy See.

"Actuated by so many and important considerations, and, as we hope, aided by the presence and inspiration of the Holy Spirit; compelled, besides, by the necessity of our ministry, which strictly obliges us to conciliate, maintain, and confirm the peace and tranquility of the Christian republic, and remove every obstacle which may tend to trouble it; having further considered that the said Company of Jesus can no longer produce those abundant fruits, and those great advantages, with a view to which it was instituted, approved by so many of our predecessors, and endowed with so many and extensive privileges; that, on the contrary, it was very difficult, not to say impossible, that the Church could recover a firm and durable peace so long as the said Society subsisted; in consequence hereof, and determined by the particular reasons we have here alleged, and forced by other motives which prudence and the good government of the Church have dictated; the knowledge of which we reserve to ourselves; conforming ourselves to the examples of our predecessors, and particularly to that of Gregory X. in the general Council of Lyons; the rather as, in the present case, we are determining upon the fate of a society classed among the mendicant orders, both by its institute and by its privileges; after a mature deliberation, we do, out of our certain knowledge, and the fulness of our apostolical power, SUPPRESS AND ABOLISH THE SAID COMPANY: we deprive it of all activity whatever, of its houses, schools, colleges, hospitals, lands, and, in short, every other place whatsoever, in whatever kingdom or province they may be situated; we abrogate and annul its statutes, rules, customs, decrees, and constitutions, even though confirmed by oath, and approved by the Holy See or otherwise; in like manner we annul all and every its privileges, indults, general or particular, the tenor whereof is, and is taken to be, as fully and as amply expressed in the present Brief as if the same were inserted word for word, in whatever clauses, form, or decree, or under whatever sanction their privileges may have been conceived. We declare all, and all kind of authority, the General, the provincials, the visitors, and other superiors of the said Society to be FOR EVER ANNULLED AND EXTINGUISHED, of what nature soever the said authority may be, as well in things spiritual as temporal. We do likewise order that the said jurisdiction and authority be transferred to the respective ordinaries, fully and in the same manner as the said generals, &c. exercised it, according to the form, places, and circumstances with respect to the persons and under the conditions hereafter determined; forbidding, as we do hereby forbid, the reception of any person to the said Society, the novitiate or habit thereof. And with regard to those who have already been admitted, our will is, that they be not received to make profession of the simple, solemn, absolute vows, under penalty of nullity, and such other penalties as we shall ordain: Further, we do will, command, and ordain, that those who are now performing their novitiate be speedily, immediately, and actually sent back to their own homes; we do further forbid that those who have made profession of the first simple vows, but who are not yet admitted to either of the holy orders, be admitted thereto under any pretext or title whatever; whether on account of the profession they have already made in the said Society, or by virtue of any privileges the said Society has obtained, contrary to the tenor of the decrees of the Council of Trent.

"And whereas all our endeavours are directed to the great end of procuring the good of the Church and the tranquility of nations; and it being at the same time our intention to provide all necessary aid, consolation, and assistance to the individuals or companions of the said Society, every one of which, in his individual capacity, we love in the Lord with a truly parental affection; and to the end that they being delivered on their part from the persecutions, dissensions, and troubles with which they have for a long time been agitated, may be able to labour with more success in the vineyard of the Lord, and contribute to the salvation of souls; therefore, and for these motives, we do decree and determine that such of the companions as have yet made professions only of the first vows, and are not yet promoted to holy orders, being absolved, as in fact they are absolved, from the first simple vows, do, without fail, quit the houses and colleges of the said Society, and be at full liberty to choose such course of life as each shall judge most conformable to his vocation, strength, and conscience, and that within a space of time to be prescribed by the ordinary of the diocese; which time shall be sufficient for each to provide himself some employment or benefice, or at least some patron who will receive him into his house, always provided that the time thus allowed do not exceed the space of one year, to be counted from the day of the date hereof. And this the rather, as, according to the privileges of the said Company, those who have only taken these first vows may be expelled the order upon motives left entirely to the prudence of the superiors, as circumstances require, and without any previous form of process. As to such of the companions as are already promoted to holy orders, we grant them permission to quit the houses and colleges of the Company, and to enter into any other regular order already approved by the Holy See. In which case, and supposing they have already professed the first vows, they are to perform the accustomed novitiate in the order into which they are to enter according to the prescription of the Council of Trent; but if they have taken all the vows, then they shall perform only a novitiate of six months, we graciously dispensing with the rest. Or otherwise, we do permit them to live at large as secular priests and clerks, always under a perfect and absolute obedience to the jurisdiction of the ordinary of the diocese where they shall establish themselves. We do likewise ordain, that to such as shall embrace this last expedient, a convenient stipend be paid out of the revenues of the house or college where they reside; regard being paid, in assigning the same, to the expenses to which the said house shall be exposed, as well as to the revenues it enjoyed. With regard to those who have made the last vows, and are promoted to holy orders, and who, either through fear of not being able to subsist for want of a pension, or from the smallness thereof, or because they know not where to fix themselves, or, on account of age, infirmities, or other grave and lawful reasons, do not choose to quit the said colleges or houses, they shall be permitted to dwell therein, provided always that they exercise no ministry whatsoever in the said houses or colleges, and be entirely subject to the ordinary of the diocese; that they make no acquisitions whatever, according to the decree of the Council of Lyons, that they do not alienate the houses, possessions, or funds which they actually possess. It shall be lawful to unite in one or more houses the number of individuals that remain, nor shall others be substituted in the room of those who may die so that the houses which become vacant may be converted to such pious uses as the circumstances of time and place shall require, in conformity to the holy canons, and the intention of the founders, so as may best promote the divine worship, the salvation of souls, and the public good. And to this end a member of the regular clergy, recommendable for his prudence and sound morals, shall be chosen to preside over and govern the said houses; so that the name of the Company shall be, and is, for ever extinguished and suppressed.

"In like manner we declare, that in this general suppression of the Company shall be comprehended the individuals thereof in all the provinces from whence they have already been expelled; and to this effect our will is, that the said individuals, even though they have been promoted to holy orders, be ipso facto reduced to the state of secular priests and clerks, and remain in absolute subjection to the ordinary of the diocese, supposing always that they are not entered into any other regular order.

"If, among the subjects heretofore of the Company of Jesus, but who shall become secular priests or clerks, the ordinaries shall find any qualified by their virtues, learning, and purity of morals, they may, as they see fit, grant or refuse them power of confessing and preaching but none of them shall exercise the said holy function without a permission in writing nor shall the bishops or ordinaries grant such permission to such of the Society who shall remain in the colleges or houses heretofore belonging to the Society, to whom we expressly and for ever prohibit the administration of the sacrament of penance, and the function of preaching; as Gregory X. did prohibit it in the Council already cited. And we leave it to the consciences of the bishops to see that this last article be strictly observed; exhorting them to have before their eyes the severe account which they must render to God of the flock committed to their charge, and the tremendous judgment with which the great Judge of the living and the dead doth threaten those who are invested with so high a character.

"Further, we will, that if any of those who have heretofore professed the institute of the Company, shall be desirous of dedicating themselves to the instruction of youth in any college or school, care be taken that they take no part in the government or direction of the same, and that the liberty of teaching be granted to such only whose labours promise a happy issue, and who shall shew themselves averse to all spirit of dispute, and untainted with any doctrines which may occasion or stir up frivolous and dangerous quarrels. In a word, the faculty of teaching youth shall neither be granted nor preserved but to those who seem inclined to maintain peace in the schools and tranquility in the world.

" Our intention and pleasure is, that the dispositions which we have thus made known for the suppression of this Society shall be extended to the members thereof employed in missions, reserving to ourselves the right of fixing upon such methods as to us shall appear most sure and convenient for the conversion of infidels and the conciliation of controverted points.

"All and singular the privileges and statutes of the said Company being thus annulled and entirely abrogated, we declare that as soon as the individuals thereof shall have quitted their houses and colleges, and taken the habit of secular clerks, they shall be qualified to obtain, in conformity to the decrees of the holy canons and apostolic constitutions, cures, benefices without cure, offices, charges, dignities, and all employments whatever, which they could not obtain so long as they were members of the said Society, according to the will of Gregory XIII., of blessed memory, expressed in his bull bearing date September 10th, 1548, which Brief begins with these words—Satus superque, &c. Likewise we grant them the power which they had not before, of receiving alms for the celebration of the mass, and the full enjoyment of all the graces and favours from which they were heretofore precluded as regular clerks of the Company of Jesus.

"We likewise abrogate all the prerogatives which had been granted to them by their General and other superiors in virtue of the privileges obtained from the Sovereign Pontiffs, and by which they were permitted to read heretical and impious books proscribed by the Holy See; likewise the power they enjoyed of not observing the stated fasts, and of eating flesh on fast days; likewise the faculty of reciting the prayers called the canonical hours, and all other like privileges; our firm intention being, that they do conform themselves in all things to the manner of living of the secular priests, and to the general rules of the Church.

" Further, we do ordain, that after the publication of this our letter, no person do presume to suspend the execution thereof, under colour, title, or pretence of any action, appeal, relief, explanation of doubts which may arise, or any other pretext whatever, foreseen or not foreseen. Our will and meaning is, that the suppression and destruction of the said Society, and of all its parts, shall have an immediate and instantaneous effect in the manner here above set forth; and that under pain of the greater excommunication, to be immediately incurred by whosoever shall presume to create the least impediment or obstacle, or delay in the execution of this our will: the said excommunication not to be taken off but by ourselves, or our successors, the Roman Pontiffs.

"Further, we ordain and command, by virtue of the holy obedience to all and every ecclesiastical person, regular and secular, of whatever rank, dignity, and condition, and especially those who have been heretofore of the said Company, that no one of them do carry their audacity so far as to impugn, combat, or even write or speak about the said suppression, or the reasons and motives of it, or about the institute of the Company, its form of government, or other circumstance thereto relating, without an express permission from the Roman Pontiff, and that under the same pain of excommunication.

" We forbid all and every one to offend any person whatever on account of the said suppression, and especially those who have been members of the said Society, or to make use of any injurious, malevolent, reproachful, or contemptuous language towards them, whether verbally or by writing.

" We exhort all the Christian princes to exert all that force, authority, and power which God has given them for the defence of the holy Roman Church, so that, in consequence of the respect and veneration which they owe to the Apostolic See, things may be so ordered, that these our letters have their full effect, and, that they attentively heeding all the articles therein contained, do publish such ordnances and regulations as may prevent all excesses, disputes, and dissensions among the faithful, whilst they carry this our will into execution.

" Finally, we exhort all Christians, and entreat them by the bowels of our Saviour Jesus Christ, to remember that we have one Master, who is in heaven, one Saviour, who has purchased us by his blood; that we have all been again born in the water of baptism, through the word of eternal life; that we have all been declared sons of God, and co-heirs with Jesus Christ; all fed with the same bread of the Catholic doctrine, and of the Divine Word; that we are all one body in Jesus Christ, of which we are members, consequently it is absolutely necessary that, united by the common bond of charity, they should live in peace with all men, and consider it as their first duty, to love one another, remembering that he who loveth his neighbour hath filleth the law, avoiding studiously all occasion of scandal, enmity, division, and such-like evils, which were invented and promoted by the ancient enemy of mankind, in order to disturb the Church of God, and prevent the eternal happiness of the faithful, under the false title of schools, opinions, and even of the perfection of Christianity. On the contrary, every one should exert his utmost endeavours to acquire that true and sincere wisdom of which St James speaks in his canonical epistle, ch. iii. v. 13.

"Further, our will and pleasure is, that though the superiors and other members of the Society, and others interested therein, have not consented to this disposition, have not been cited or heard, still it shall not at any time be allowed them to make any observations on our present letter, to attack or invalidate it, to demand a further examination of it, to appeal from it, make it a matter of dispute, to reduce it to the terms of law, to proceed against it by the means of restitutionis ad integrum, to open their mouth against it, to reduce it ad viam et terminus juris, or, in short, to impugn it by any way whatever, of right or fact, favour or justice; and even though these means may be granted them, and though they should have obtained them, still they may not make use of them in court or out of court; nor shall they plead any flaw, subreption, obreption, nullity, or invalidity in this letter, or any other plea, how great, unforeseen, or substantial it may be, nor the neglect of any form in the above proceedings, or in any part thereof, nor the neglect of any point founded on any law or custom, and comprised in the body of laws, nor even the plea of enormis enormissimce et totalis laesionis, nor, in short, any pretext or motive, however just, reasonable, or privileged, not even though the omission of such form or point should be of such nature as, without the same being expressly guarded against, would render every other act invalid. For all this notwithstanding, our will and pleasure is, that these our letters should for ever and to all eternity be valid, permanent, and efficacious, have and obtain their full force and effect, and be inviolably observed by all and every whom they do or may concern, now or hereafter, in any manner whatever.

" In like manner, and not otherwise, we ordain that all the matters here above specified, and every of them, shall be carried into execution by the ordinary judge and delegate; whether by the auditor, cardinal, legate a latere, nuncio, or any other person who has, or ought to have, authority or jurisdiction in any matter or suits, taking from all and every of them all power of interpreting these our letters. And this to be executed, notwithstanding all constitutions, privileges, apostolic commands, &c. &c. &c. And though to render the abolition of these privileges legal they should have been cited word for word, and not comprised only in general clauses, yet for this time, and of our special motion, we do derogate from this usage and custom, declaring that all the tenor of the said privileges is, and is to be supposed, as fully expressed and abrogated as if they were cited word for word, and as if the usual form had been observed.

"Lastly, our will and pleasure is, that to all copies of the present Brief, signed by a notary public, and sealed by some dignitary of the Church, the same force and credit shall be given as to this original. Given at Rome, at St Mary the Greater, under the seal of the Fisherman, the
21st day of July 1773, in the fifth year
of our Pontificate."


Here we can plainly read that the Order was SUPRESSED and NOT disbanded. Supression means exactly what it states, that the Order was to heavily censored, to the point of it's members being allowed to dwindle down to extinction, and although this is not mentioned anywhere, the intentions are quite clear, however the Vatican did not imagine that Queen Catherine the Great of Russia would play a key role not only in the survival of the Order, but in it's growth during the supression period.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Here we can plainly read that the Order was SUPRESSED and NOT disbanded. Supression means exactly what it states, that the Order was to heavily censored, to the point of it's members being allowed to dwindle down to extinction, and although this is not mentioned anywhere, the intentions are quite clear, however the Vatican did not imagine that Queen Catherine the Great of Russia would play a key role not only in the survival of the Order, but in it's growth during the supression period.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Thanks for clearing that up for us, Lamar

From what I understand...this was brought about because of political issues. Possibly in other countries, and not necessarily in the New World.   

Beth,

Historically, it has always been known exactly why the Order was suppressed.  The Jesuits had become a very powerful group.  That power created jealousy, which coalesced into widespread movements against the Order. 

Nowhere in the document that disbanded the Jesuits, was there a single mention of mines or treasures being hoarded.  Those accusations really came about through the efforts of treasure hunters and enemies of the order.  With all the words that were used, why not mining, mines or treasure?

Personally, I never think it's a good idea to post Internet information, without citing the source.

Take care,

Joe

[respectfully disagree.]

Very long post, I must beg your indulgence.

Cactusjumper wrote

Barry Storm was a treasure hunter, and we all know there is treasure.....everywhere.

I see that you don't think there are treasures lost all over the land.  You have plenty of company, but I respectfully disagree.

Lamar wrote

Someone can write that the LDM was discovered by aliens from another galaxy with Elvis Presley as their leader and Jesse James as their foreman and I could honestly care less, but when they involve the Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans, Templars, Hospitallers, or any other Roman Catholic religious Order then I will involve myself in the discourse very quickly.

To my way of thinking, these unfounded accusations reek of anti-Catholicism and this is one prejudice which I will not allow without interjecting the facts of the subject into the discussions. Again, my offer remains open and valid to any and all who wish to participate.

Wow Elvis Presley and anti-Catholicism all in the same post with aliens and Templars.  My compliments on this wide loop!  Anti-catholicism though, really Lamar?  I would ask you to explain just how this is construed to be so, but probably to your view it makes sense.

Rochha wrote

I believe the Jesuits did engage in mining

You are correct on this point, for it is an historical fact.

Cactusjumper wrote

It's always possible that some Jesuits have stepped over the line. If that is the case, you should present the evidence for the individual rather than paint the entire Jesuit Order with that broad brush. First give us the priest, the era, the place and the treasure. In that way, we can examine the evidence one case/point at a time.

We have been down this road before, haven't we?  Must we keep posting the names of the priests, the dates and locations and other details just to show that a sweeping statement about no Jesuits ever having been involved in mining is false? 

 
Lamar wrote

For the love of God I do hope that you brought something more with you to this table than a mere OPINION!

Wow again Lamar, from your words a fellow might conclude that your patience were at an end - what is wrong with opinions after all?  We can disagree and still remain friends, right?  As has been pointed out, any two people can look at the same set of evidences and arrive at two very different, even opposite conclusions.

Lamar also wrote

The fact is that there does not exist any proof of illegal activities in regards to the Jesuits illegal mining ventures, therefore they MUST be assumed to be innocent.

This is false, there is evidence and it has been  posted previously here on T-net in other threads - must we go over it again, and re-post the same things? Your logic here escapes me.

Lamar also wrote

To date, the only religious Order that has been * disbanded forever* by the Vatican were the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon, better known as the Knights Templars.

You are mistaken here amigo, just read Pope Clement's XIV proclamation again.

Gollum wrote

You know what? I see the road this is beginning to go down for the millionth time.

I agree amigo, the constant repeating of the same arguments and falsehoods starts to smell funky.

Gollum also wrote

I recommend stopping the Jesuit discussion here, and keep an eye out for a Jesuit Treasures Thread.

I concur and will keep that eye open.

Lamar and anyone else who keeps on with the idea that the Jesuits were NOT "forever" disbanded and suppressed, here are a few extracts from the Papal bull Dominus ac Redemptor Noster

"We declare all, and all kind of authority, the General, the provincials, the visitors, and other superiors of the said Society to be FOR EVER ANNULLED AND EXTINGUISHED, of what nature soever the said authority may be, as well in things spiritual as temporal. "
"And to this end a member of the regular clergy, recommendable for his prudence and sound morals, shall be chosen to preside over and govern the said houses; so that the name of the Company shall be, and is, for ever extinguished and suppressed."

So can we please make an end of the pretense that Pope Clement XIV DIDN'T order the Jesuits to be suppressed and disband FOR EVER?  I fail to see what possible good can come from trying to change that bit of history. For a person who claims to be so devoted to truth and honesty, this stands as a glaring and inexplicable desire NOT to see the truth.
Oroblanco

I don't want this to turn into a religious discussion, so I'm only going to post this one comment and then not respond.

I have no "horse" in this race whatsoever - I simply haven't educated myself on the subject AT ALL, however when I saw you post this Lamar...

To my way of thinking, these unfounded accusations reek of anti-Catholicism and this is one prejudice which I will not allow without interjecting the facts of the subject into the discussions.

Now of course in this case I will absolutely agree with you that I haven't seen any documented proof of Jesuit Treasure, etc... but I do know of a number of things that have happened within the Catholic Church that have been exposed over the last 10-20 years with documented coverups within the church to keep people quiet and move people around rather than deal with the problems.  I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, and there's no reason to specifically bring it up, however....

When that kind of thing occurs and you have an organization (religious) or otherwise with that much power and influence, and you see documented evidence of corruption and "behind the scenes coverups," it makes it more believable to think that in the past, certain "underhanded" things may have occurred as well.

It proves nothing at all, but it does put doubt in people's minds.  The Catholic church - as well as every other religious order is after all comprised of human beings with human traits, temptations and sin.  It doesn't make it right to make false accusations, but it also doesn't mean they aren't above suspicion.

Thus ends my soapbox statement

There are none so blind, then those who will not see.


I agree with the sentiment of taking this to a Jesuit forum - obviously, I missed the fact that certain members either do not know, will not know, do not want to know - and only want to hijack the thread - so, I will stop being part of the "guilty party".

B

Ditto 

Okay,

For those who wish to debate Jesuit Treasures, I have completed the first part of the thread:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index....c,286969.msg2055760.html#msg2055760

I will say this, if there is any insane posts regarding Jesuit Illuminati, New World Orders, Anti_Catholic or Anti-Jesuit Slanders, or Jewish conspiracy nuts, I will make sure all those posts get whacked!

I also am saving the debate about Jesuit Mining Activities for a different thread, so no need to post about it there.

Best-Mike

Muchas gracias amigo!

Here's what I was alluding to earlier:

DO I BELIEVE THAT CHUCK KENWORTHY MAY HAVE BEEN DEFRAUDED BY SOMEONE CLAIMING TO BE AN ARCHIVIST THAT MANUFACTURED SUCH DOCUMENTS FOR SALE? YEP! I have been privately offered such documents for sale, and upon researching the name of the person offering the documents. His name was Pavel Novak (not sure of spelling). As many people on this forum in the shipwrecks sections can attest, this man takes original documents and manufactures what you want out of them. He said that in his research for shipwrecks he had come across several documents that relate to land monuments. I had always wondered if he did that to CK. It is possible. BUT, there is one thing that flies against that notion. It is some personal knowledge that I have regarding CKs papers. It WILL take a lot more research, but the possibility is there.

Best-Mike

I can attest to your claim that many on this forum have been defrauded by one Pavel Novak or Nowak  (not sure of spelling) around the time of CK's book publishing. It was when the forum had a different format around 1998 or so. I came upon the person named here was offering a box full of unpublished treasure maps of what is now the southwestern USA from the Spanish archives. He was making a trip there "in the next couple of weeks" to pick them up and wanted only "250 Dollars US" to send them to me. I even went to his 'supposed' website that praised him greatly with photos of his treasure hunting adventures, mostly sunken ships to check him out. I later believed the person contacting me was not the person on the website. I learned to never accept as truth a person's own offering of credentials.

For sure he knew exactly HOW to wire the money to him via UPS and lead me thru the process step by step. His emails were many until he got the money. Then as the folks on the forum later told me he does, I got a photocopy of a post mark that supposedly was from "the package he had his friend mail" to me. That was it, no box, no letter, no nothin' but that email claiming that the package had been sent. I did all I knew how to do to track him down and everything he had told be was a lie. 

I posted as 'Trailmaster' back then so if anyone has the old format threads saved on their PC they can check it out. Getting burned as I had by that guy, I quit the Forum for a few years. Then one day I found the new format and started "reading only" until I realized that MOST posters here are decent and truthful folks.

I brought all that up just to attest that PERHAPS Mr. Kenworthy was duped as I, and many others, were around that time on this very forum. 

The old adage "Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see" holds as true today as when it was first uttered. If it was on TV don't believe any of it. Ever hear of Photoshop?

Ken "dustcap" Chichester

Thanks Dustcap.

CK stated that he began getting his copies in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

While I do consider it a possibility, I think it is a distant one. I do have some knowledge that I will not share, that would render this an impossibility. I only include it because I believe in exploring every possible option and being intellectually honest.

Best-Mike

Gollum, could you explain exactly what it is your looking for with the Jesuit treasure and mineing threads. Are you doing research for a book, makeing a map, seeking  imfo on Jesuit lost treasures  or long forgotten  mineing activities. What Jesuit  Keys do you seek ?

GD,

While I am always looking to increase my knowledge in every arena, I seek no specific information in my Jesuit Treasure Thread.

I started it simply because there are so many proofs that keep having to be restated over and over again, I wanted to have them all in one easily researchable location. Rather than having to get snippets from 50 different threads, I plan of posting all the information I am willing or not obliged to keep secret so others can also have a place to find all the evidence they need to convince any thinking people that the evidence of Jesuit Treasures is incontrovertible!

I'm not writing a book either.I have enough information to do so, but not enough time. We'll see.

Best-Mike

Ok ,I will contribute some imfo down the road. 

Looking great Mike!
Looking forward to a lot more on the subject,

Ritchie

hay mike no matter what or how much you post, you will not be able to stop swr and lamar fron being naysayers, they are not happy unless they are messing things up and makeing people out to be liers,i look forward to all your post as i have been for the last 3 or 4 yrs.  whitt459

I just read the posts on this page again (#'s 100 thru 123) and I can't figure how most of it has anything to do with the title of this thread. Let me remind you it's:
Book: Treasure Secrets of the LD by (Chuck) Kenworthy, 1997

 I very much enjoy reading and certainly appreciate and respect the information given in the posts by most of the people posting here, but PLEASE try to stick to the thread title. If I wanted to read about some other title(s) I would have chosen that instead.

Thank you all for your cooperation. I apologize in advance if I hurt anyone's feelings by this request.

Ken "dustcap" Chichester

P.S. I guess I'm getting too old to spend my efforts on things that hijack my time on a tangent.

Mike,

While I do consider it a possibility, ... I do have some knowledge that I will not share, that would render this an impossibility...

Now you got me puzzled by that statement. Are we talking' Poetic License 'privileges'? ...perhaps stretching the truth, or a blatant, intentional falsehood.

This gets into a whole different ball game.
Example: What if a 'seeker' were to rely on information presented in such a book and you absolutely knew it to be false, wouldn't you feel some obligation to put the record straight? Let's just say for the sake of argument that a certain symbol was purported in said book to mean "safe passage" when in fact it was a sign for "death to anyone who set foot here." I certainly would let it be known to the author of the inaccuracy and in the case of the author being deceased, anyone else that MAY be affected.  But that's just me... -dustcap (my personal email address is listed if you care to use it)

I agree Dustcap, these threads are convaluted  off title and repetitive. Also why share imfomation with others who admititally withhold  what they know. What I was going to share I think I wont. The continual back and forth about the same issues is boreing to me. I am  going to regulate myself to the sidelines.

"Also why share imfomation with others who admititally withhold  what they know"                                                                      At A party>>>>>  I spoke with my mentor and asked him what he was doing after graduation. I was very curious.  He told me he was starting a business, but that the business was so confidential he could not even tell me what it was about.  It was a strange experience standing there, and I wondered what the point was of going to school with someone who could not even tell me what he was doing.  I spoke to several other people at the party and I remember another guy did the exact same thing with me.  I felt it was very unusual to have no interest whatsoever in sharing what you were doing.  It really left a bad taste in my mouth.  “Is this what business is about?” I wondered.

In  the book Love is the Killer App: How to Win Business and Influence Friends, author Tim Sanders writes:

Over an over I have discovered that the people in the bizworld who are most "successful", and "happiest", are the "lovecats."  These are the people who you always like the most, the ones who are passionate from 9 to 5, or 8 to 10, or whatever their hours.  They are the ones who are most generous with their knowledge, their address book, and their compassion.

There are real benefits to sharing what you know.  Ideas are open knowledge that anyone should have access to.  There are never any benefits in not sharing most knowledge with the people around you.  I have always believed in the power of sharing ideas and have found that the more I have done this the better our companies (and I) have done.
 

Dear oroblanco;
You wrote;
I concur and will keep that eye open.

Lamar and anyone else who keeps on with the idea that the Jesuits were NOT "forever" disbanded and suppressed, here are a few extracts from the Papal bull Dominus ac Redemptor Noster

"We declare all, and all kind of authority, the General, the provincials, the visitors, and other superiors of the said Society to be FOR EVER ANNULLED AND EXTINGUISHED, of what nature soever the said authority may be, as well in things spiritual as temporal. "
"And to this end a member of the regular clergy, recommendable for his prudence and sound morals, shall be chosen to preside over and govern the said houses; so that the name of the Company shall be, and is, for ever extinguished and suppressed."

So can we please make an end of the pretense that Pope Clement XIV DIDN'T order the Jesuits to be suppressed and disband FOR EVER?  I fail to see what possible good can come from trying to change that bit of history. For a person who claims to be so devoted to truth and honesty, this stands as a glaring and inexplicable desire NOT to see the truth.
Oroblanco

I honestly grow weary of covering the same ground time and again, my friend. Once more, for the written record, the words "FOR EVER ANNULLED AND EXTINGUISHED" while being a close proximation of the original Latin text of the Bull do not actually mean that in the literal sense. The words "Ad infinium" do not mean "Forever and ever" it means "Until further notice" or something similiar to that. "A better meaning would be "Until such time as to be announced in the future, IF it is to be announced at all." In other words, Pope Clement XIV left the document open ended for future events. In brief, Pope Clement XIV supressed the Jesuit without ever having condemned them. If He were to have disbanded the Jesuits forever and ever and ever and EVER, first He would have first needed to condemn them, then annul the Order.

It should be plainly obvious to anyone who knows even a bit about the workings of the Vatican, that if Pope Clement XIV had dissolved the Jesuits forever then they could have never been ressurected by Pope Pius VII 41 years later. No Pope can contradict the decision(s) of a preceeding Pope at any time, nor can a sitting Pope correct the words or doctrines written by any prior Pope.

If Pope Clement had wished to dissolve the Jesuits permenantly, then He would have done so using the exact same formula as was used to dissolve the Templars, my friend. The Jesuits were not the first nor last Order to have been suppressed and the Papal Bull Dominus Ac Redemptor clearly follows the same formula as was used in other suppressions.

In the case of the Templars, the Templars were accused, they were investigated and the accusations were found to have had a degree of merit, they were tried, they were judged, they were condemned, they were then offered an arrangement for them to remain as a religious Order within the Church, they rejected the offer and they were disbanded. Permenantly.

A second brief, titled Gravissimis Ex Causis, dated August 16th, 1773, established the means by which the suppression was to proceed. Nowhere does the document state that the Jesuits were dissolved and it goes to great lengths to ensure that the Jesuits were not to have been harmed in any way, including being verbally insulted or unjustly accused. In other words, the parties responsible for carrying out the orders of the suppression were informed in no uncertain terms that the Jesuits were to have been treated with kid gloves.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[I respectfully disagree with your whole argument]

There is a separate thread for this subject now Lamar, your attempted revision of history is noted. 

 I respectfully disagree with your whole argument, which you will likely interpret as my "failure to grasp it".  I understand your argument fully, what I cannot understand is your clear desire to re-write history. 

Lamar wrote

The words "Ad infinium" do not mean "Forever and ever" it means "Until further notice" or something similiar to that.

Ad infinium as "until further notice"?  Really Lamar, do you expect folks will buy that one? 

When is forever not forever? When we are discussing the Jesuits! 

[I respectfully disagree with your whole argument]

There is a separate thread for this subject now Lamar, your attempted revision of history is noted.  

 I respectfully disagree with your whole argument, which you will likely interpret as my "failure to grasp it".  I understand your argument fully, what I cannot understand is your clear desire to re-write history.  

Lamar wrote

The words "Ad infinium" do not mean "Forever and ever" it means "Until further notice" or something similiar to that.

Ad infinium as "until further notice"?  Really Lamar, do you expect folks will buy that one?  

When is forever not forever? When we are discussing the Jesuits!  

Ad Infinitum means more like "to infinity"

In context, it usually means "continue forever, without limit" and thus can be used to describe a non-terminating process, a non-terminating repeating process, or a set of instructions to be repeated "forever", among other uses. It may also be used in a manner similar to the Latin phrase "et cetera" to denote written words or a concept that continues for a lengthy period beyond what is shown. Examples include:

    * "The sequence 1, 2, 3, ... continues ad infinitum."
    * "The perimeter of a fractal may be iteratively drawn ad infinitum."
    * The 17th century writer Jonathan Swift mocked the idea of self-similarity in natural philosophy with the following lines in his poem 'On Poetry: A Rhapsody'[1]:

Best-Mike

Dear oroblanco;
In this case, my humble advice to you would to not take my word for it, rather learn how to read Latin my friend. As I've stated previously, Latin has different root meanings from English counterparts. Therefore it would greatly behoove you to learn Latin and most importantly, the gentle nuasences of the language in particular. I do realize that you are arguing with me mostly for the sake of being able to do so,m however I WOULD like to remind you that the tranlsation which I posted previously is EXACTLY that, a translation. In and of itself, the translation is fairly accurate in that it attempts to translate the Bull word for word, which as you may have already guessed, it pretty much impossible to do.

In the ferverent hopes that you are paying close attention, I will remind you that the word "Infinitum" means "Infinity" or "without end" in English, more or less. We get our word Infinity from it and it meand "without end". In Latin, it signifies an unknown state of being, as it is without end, therefore one cannot surmise the future course of the subject.

If someone wishes to state something in Latin that means, "Finished, for all time (or always)" the proper Latin word would be Semper, or on a more familiar and modernistic approach, the word Juge can also be used in place of Semper in certain specific contexts, or if someone wishes to use the very early, classical Latin form, the very familiar form would be "Usquequaque" which almost never used in modern times as it was depreciated long ago and it is considered to be a form of *street Latin*, which is to state a form of Latin which was spoken by the common classe of Romans.

I do hope this serves to clarify things somewhat.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear oroblanco;
I just thought of a prime example of the differences between the words "Semper" and "Infinitum". The motto of the US Marine Corps is "Semper Fidelis" which means "ALWAYS faithful" in that there is no argumentive state, it is a definitive statement and one which cannot be altered by future events. It is "ALWAYS" and it has a definitive ending.

If one were to modify the motto (Heaven forbid!) to "Fidelis ad Infinitum" then it would be altered to an argumentive state of being, that state being one of uncertainty, and it would mean "Faithful until further notice".

And this is why the US Marine Corps uses the motto Semper Fidelis instead of Fidelis ad Infinitum, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar - SEMPER means "always"

ad infinitum means "to unlimited" - NOT "until" (Until further notice) "insquequo porro animadverto"

Fidelis means "faithful or loyal"

Trying to decipher what you mean).

 insquequo tunc vicis

B

[Ad Infinitum means more like "to infinity"]

Gollum wrote

Ad Infinitum means more like "to infinity"

Bingo again!  Give that man a cigar!  Even my poor, severely limited understanding of Latin has this same understanding of that rather simple statement. 

Lamar wrote

In this case, my humble advice to you would to not take my word for it, rather learn how to read Latin my friend.

Well my friend, I have been learning Latin for some time now, with only the most basic and limited grasp of course struggling as I am handicapped by brutish low intellect, however your new definition of "Ad Infinium" meaning "until further notice" is not in agreement with my references. I feel quite confident in Pope Benedict's grasp of Latin, and had he intended to write "until further notice" he would certainly have found the appropriate and correct Latin phrase to fit his intended meaning. 

Lamar also wrote

I do realize that you are arguing with me mostly for the sake of being able to do so,

You are quite mistaken on this point amigo, I have no intention of arguing with you - only presenting a different view of the issue from your own, for the sake of our READERS.

Lamar also wrote

In the ferverent hopes that you are paying close attention, I will remind you that the word "Infinitum" means "Infinity" or "without end" in English,

In my equally fervent hope, <since I see that you can grasp this meaning of Infinium>, that some day you will see what Pope Benedict XIV said in a different light.  The Society of Jesus was very much "under fire" in 1773, no matter how much one may struggle to change that history, it happened. The Jesuits are held in high regard today-  but you certainly ought to be aware of the deep suspicions, jealousy, and intrigues which were the case in many governments in the 1750s-1770's.  One can only imagine how the Spanish, Portuguese, French and other angry governments would have reacted if the Pope had simply suspended the Jesuits in a temporary fashion as you keep trying to have us believe!   

My apologies to our readers for this clearly OFF-topic drift.
Oroblanco

Dear Oroblanco;
Allright, since you know so much, explain to me why the Jesuits are still amongst us, my friend??? And, while you're at it, please explain to me how Pope Pius was able to countermand the Bull written by Pope Clement??? And while you are doing that, please explain to me the true meaning of Pope Pius' Papal Bull which lifted the SUPPRESSION and allowed the Society of Jesus to once again function as a religious Order within the Roman Catholic Church??? I really wish you'd explain this to me as I am tired of trying to explain it to you.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Oroblanco;
I am not trying to change history, nor alter it in the slightest degree. Thus far, EVERYTHING which I've written is backed up by VOLUMES of historical documentation, unlike your claim of Jesuit gold mines, my friend. Understand this point very clearly. The Jesuits were investigated, extensively as it were. There was never any evidence brought to light in regards to any misdeeds on their part, therefore the Vatican could NOT condemn them as they did NOT do anything wrong! They were only guilty of making waves, however boat rocking is not enough for condemnation, but if it's allowed to go too far, then it is subjected to........
SUPPRESSION! What part of this do you fail to understand??? Is there something else which I should be aware of???
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear oroblanco;
The Jesuit's troubled all started in 1750 AD with the Guarani missions here in South America. When Spain and Portugal signed their secret treaty in 1750AD, Portugal turned over the colony of San Clemente at the delta of the Uruaguay river in exchange for the 7 Jesuit reductions in Paraguay. Prior to the exchange, the reductions existed as a nominal autonomous region, however when the Portuguese took over the reductions the Jesuit missionaries, along with the natives of the missions, were ordered across the Uruaguay river. A battle ensued, called the Guarani War and the Portuguese handily defeated the natives.

Afterwards, a propaganda war began in Portugal, with flyers being handed out, both denouncing and praising the Jesuits. The Portuguese government took this as a sign that the Jesuit intentions were to carve out independent nations in South Americas, free from any secular government. The Portuguese colonists, always unhappy that the Jesuits interferred with their rounding up of the natives to be used as slaves, soon joined the propoganda fray and they added their own list of grievances to the already smoldering fire.

The rest, as they say, is history.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[your motive]

Lamar wrote

Dear Oroblanco;
Allright, since you know so much, explain to me why the Jesuits are still amongst us, my friend??? And, while you're at it, please explain to me how Pope Pius was able to countermand the Bull written by Pope Clement??? And while you are doing that, please explain to me the true meaning of Pope Pius' Papal Bull which lifted the SUPPRESSION and allowed the Society of Jesus to once again function as a religious Order within the Roman Catholic Church??? I really wish you'd explain this to me as I am tired of trying to explain it to you.

Why would your first question puzzle anyone?  The Jesuits never went away, even during the SUPPRESSION they were quite active, as you well know. They were run out of the Portuguese, French and Spanish dominions, but were given protection elsewhere - in Russia, Germany, even the USA.  Those in Russia even were serving the Byzantine Church, during the period of their suppression, rather odd if you think about it.

What is there to explain about Pope Pius deciding to allow the Jesuits to be active?  You seem to think that no Pope can have a different opinion from a previous Pope.  The biggest factor of course was that the political situation had changed, but you know this already.

Lamar also wrote

Dear Oroblanco;
I am not trying to change history, nor alter it in the slightest degree. Thus far, EVERYTHING which I've written is backed up by VOLUMES of historical documentation, unlike your claim of Jesuit gold mines, my friend. Understand this point very clearly. The Jesuits were investigated, extensively as it were. There was never any evidence brought to light in regards to any misdeeds on their part, therefore the Vatican could NOT condemn them as they did NOT do anything wrong! They were only guilty of making waves, however boat rocking is not enough for condemnation, but if it's allowed to go too far, then it is subjected to........
SUPPRESSION! What part of this do you fail to understand??? Is there something else which I should be aware of???

Well I am forced to respectfully disagree with you on several grounds, first your posts in which you would have everyone believe that the Jesuits were only suppressed for some temporary period is at variance with history; that the Jesuits were actively involved in mining, as well as ranching, farming, trading in furs and even banking is history - though some seem bent on re-writing that history so as to portray the Jesuits in a better light.  Only guilty of "making waves"?  That is the understatement of the year!  Must we dredge up every kind of evidence? 

What part I fail to understand is your motive for wanting everyone who reads our discussion here to believe that the Jesuits were utterly "innocent" of any kind of involvement in mining, that they never, ever had anything in their possession which could be viewed as treasure, when this is untrue.  Is there some crime which can be prosecuted, if we show that some Jesuits were involved in mining, that they did have possession of respectable amounts of money and/or treasures?  Perhaps it was against Spanish law - so what?  The laws of Spain no longer apply amigo, and surely none of the Jesuits whom were alive in the 1700's are still alive today to face such prosecution.  How is it that a few men working a mine is seen as a blot on the honor of the Jesuits? 

Lamar you have made many sweeping statements about the Jesuits, always saying they never had mines, nor treasures much less slaves, and it seems to bother you that I do not agree with your statements or version of events.  Does it matter what I believe, or if some treasure hunters should go in search of lost Jesuit mines or treasures, if your version is correct and none ever existed?  There would be no mines to find, nor treasures to recover right? 

Lamar also wrote

The Jesuit's troubled all started in 1750 AD with the Guarani missions here in South America.

Ah, yes, now do you want to discuss that? You must know that here too, we have "legends" of secret mines worked by the Jesuits.  What a surprise and coincidence!  Surely it must be yet another fantasy, made up by modern treasure writers......

My sincere apologies for testing your patience beyond limits, and for giving you the mistaken impression that you must keep explaining your view due to some failure to understand it - you have been quite clear in your posts and there was no misunderstanding, just a complete  difference of view.   
Oroblanco

[may]

Gentlemen,

I believe the key here may be to focus on the meaning of "ad" in "ad infinitum".  That may give you a little more insight into the Latin meaning of the phrase.  To focus narrowly on the word "infinitum" conveys a false meaning when you leave out the "ad".  There is some subtility in the use of the word "ad".  While it can mean to or at, it can also denote towards.  

Being close to, near or moving towards heaven, is not the same as being in heaven. I believe Lamar is trying to explain that you need to take the Pope's entire document into consideration to get a clear understanding of his overall meaning.  The proof of that, as Lamar has stated, came 41 years later.

Not knowing Latin, I could be wrong.

Respectfully,

Joe

Dear oroblanco;
You wrote:
in Russia, Germany, even the USA.  Those in Russia even were serving the Byzantine Church, during the period of their suppression, rather odd if you think about it.

The Jesuits were suppressed in Germany, my friend. They remained active in the USA as the US government would not interfere in matters which we consider to be internal religious affairs, therefore the Jesuits were permitted to continue as always. The Jesuits were also encouraged to remain in the Sovereign state of Belgium as a scholastic group known collectively as Bollandists, so named after the group's founder, the Jesuit priest and scholar, Jean Bolland.

The Bollandists, even though the group was comprised of all Jesuit scholars, was not suppressed by the Belgium authorities because it was viewed as more of a scholarly association rather than a religious one. In this manner the Bollandists were permitted to continue their work unchecked until the Austrian government suppressed the Bollandists throughout the Low Countries in 1788 A.D., most probably with the urging of the Vatican.

The Bollandists then moved to the Premonstratensian abbey at Tongerloo, near Antwerp, Belgium, where the Bollandist group remains to this day.

Regarding the Jesuits in Russia, it was Catherine the Great who stated that the Jesuits were in Russia and Prussia (then a Russian possession) at the request of the Russian monarchs and as such they were personal guests of the Crown of Russia and NO ONE was allowed to cross Russian borders in order to carry out the will of Pope Clementine XIV, and anyone caught attempting to do so would suffer immediate and lengthy imprisonment.

The fact is that the Jesuits were established in Russia and Prussia at the request of the Russian monarchy and their purpose in that region was highly defined. At that particular time in history,  Russia was hugely illiterate, with an estimated 90% or more of the overall population not being able to read or write or even able to perform basic mathmatic calculations. In short, Russia was comprised of an extremely large illiterate population, and one which soon found Russia lagging behind the rest of the modern European world in advancements, most notably the sciences, technologies  and industry.

Jesuits never served in the Byzantine Church to the best of my knowledge even though they did act as confessors to various Orthodox Patriarchs. Being highly educated, the ranks of the Jesuits included some of the world's most highly skilled orators, and as such, the Jesuits were wonderful debaters. They would debate Western versus Eastern theologies 'round the clock and some of their more famous debates included servants bringing the debate teams food and drink in order that the debates could continue without pause.

In this manner, the Jesuits were successful in modernizing Eastern (Byzantine) theology and the Jesuits were directly responsible for the Russian Orthodox theology that they have today. Even though Russia was (and still is) mostly Eastern Orthodox, the influence of the Jesuits there contributed to the return of Catholicism throughout Eastern Europe. During their suppression, the Jesuits were responsible for more Roman Catholic converts in Russia and Prussia than the rest of the Roman Catholic missionary world, combined. The existing Russian Roman Catholic communities today can trace their roots back to the Jesuit missionaries of the 1700s.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[may]

Gentlemen,

I believe the key here may be to focus on the meaning of "ad" in "ad infinitum".  That may give you a little more insight into the Latin meaning of the phrase.  To focus narrowly on the word "infinitum" conveys a false meaning when you leave out the "ad".  There is some subtility in the use of the word "ad".  While it can mean to or at, it can also denote towards.  

Being close to, near or moving towards heaven, is not the same as being in heaven. I believe Lamar is trying to explain that you need to take the Pope's entire document into consideration to get a clear understanding of his overall meaning.  The proof of that, as Lamar has stated, came 41 years later.

Not knowing Latin, I could be wrong.

Respectfully,

Joe

Dear cactusjumper;
Your statement is correct, my friend. When a person attempts to translate Latin into English on a word-by-word basis, problems tend to arise very quickly. While Latin and English share some linguistic sentiments, very often Latin translators will discover themselves at an impasse, mainly because the Latin words may have many different meanings to them, depending wholly upon their usage and even placement, in a statement.

A perfect example of this would be the translation of the Bible into English, that being the King James Version. The british scholars amassed over thrity THOUSAND major linguistic errors whilst translating the writings from Greek into English. Those are a lot of errors on anyone's tally sheet, however the fallacy was in the belief that Greek or Latin writings could be translated word for word, with the meanings of the sentence or phrase remaining true to the original writer's language.

We now realize that this method is completely untrue and we therefore cannot *plug in* a Latin text in Babelfish and even hope to maintain the text's original meaning(s). Therefore, we must read the entire document and then translate the document's IDEAS instead it's words. In other words, we need to translate the document's original intentions and contextual statements instead of merely translating the words from one language to the next.

I've happened to have studied the Papal Bull Dominus Ac Redemptor in it's original Latin form and in the Bull the Pope highlights the dissention and discord sown by the Jesuits throughout Portugal, Spain and France, while at the same time the Vatican seems to be praising and highly critical of the Jesuits work in those countries. Nowhere in the Bull does the Pope accuse the Jesuits of committing illegal or illicit acts of a secual nature, such as usury or illegal mining. The Vatican, along with the Spanish and Portuguese governments, previously investigated those accusations at length and found them to be unfounded, and without basis or merit.

In short, the Jesuits were persecuted, yet not prosecuted, without merit and their suppression is an as yet uncorrected injustice, however it seems that the Jesuits managed to extract a retribution of sorts, perhaps through "Deus vult", that meaning "God's will" in English. Instead of aiding the situation in the colonies, the expulsion of the Jesuits only served to heighten tensions between the colonists and the natives throughout all of Europe's colonies and within a decade of the Jesuits restoration, all of the New World colonies became separate and independent governments.

Looking at the big picture, it seems that those sovereign nations which acccused and suppressed the Society of Jesus have fallen onto rather hard times and have been demoted to the status of second-tier political powers, whereas the nations where the Jesuits were permitted to remain and continue to work, most notably the USA, Russia, China and Japan, have accquired the status of world powers and/or economic leaders. Please do not look at this statement as a conspricacy theory, my friend, rather view it is as an *idea* or a theory in *issues of doctrines*. It seems that the Jesuits, through their continued and undiminished system of teaching their own form of doctrines, have managed to shape nations into what they are today.

Of course, this is merely an observation on my part and it in no way or form accuses or even hints that the Jesuits did anything which may be construed as manipulative, rather my statement should be viewed as one which praises the continued works and teachings of the Society of Jesus.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar, you said:

Looking at the big picture, it seems that those sovereign nations which acccused and suppressed the Society of Jesus have fallen onto rather hard times and have been demoted to the status of second-tier political powers, whereas the nations where the Jesuits were permitted to remain and continue to work, most notably the USA, Russia, China and Japan, have accquired the status of world powers and/or economic leaders. Please do not look at this statement as a conspricacy theory, my friend, rather view it is as an *idea* or a *docturnal* theory. It seems that the Jesuits, through their continued and undiminished system of teaching their own form of doctrines, have managed to shape nations into what they are today.

Cmon Lamar - even you have to agree that your implication here is a HUGE leap of "cause and affect" logic!!

Dear Cubfan64;
Of course I agree there is a sort of *cause and effect* logic underscoring the success, or failure, of nations which have been influenced by Jesuit scholars, my friend, however I do not feel there was any sort of conspiracy involved, as all conspiracies share the one trait of being well planned out in advance.

I do feel that the Jesuits, through the rigid use of their scholastic dogma, have helped to shape nations of higher than average students, which, when viewed through a progressive generational modal, seems to be the nations which are the most successful, whereas in the areas where the Jesuits were suppressed, the opposite phenonemom holds true.

It's not by mere chance or coincidence that these highly successful nations which were schooled by the tenants of Jesuit professors and teachers just so happened to gain the upper hand in industry, finances, etc. This feat occurred because the Jesuits, rather than merely teaching their subjects, actually taught their subjects the art of teaching.

Once the students had all of the tools at their disposal which allowed them to be professors and teachers themselves, they in turn passed this knowledge on to future generations, until we arrive at the situation which we now have today. In other words, the Jesuits gifted those whom believed in them with the power of intelligence and extracted a retribution of sorts by denying that same knowledge to those who had rejected them. And the sum of the results of the Jesuits collective efforts may be viewed on the world's stage today, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Paul

Huge leaps of faith are part and parcel of Jesuit teachings.  Lamar, with his obvious training, makes those leaps on a daily basis.....I would imagine.

What he writes on the effects of Jesuit training of others, is demonstrably true.  Those tribe that the Jesuits had the most success with in Mexico, were best able to survive their Spanish conquerors.  When the king removed the Jesuits from the mission system and Mexico, he only damaged his stated goals for the New World.

That's not to say what happened was right or wrong, only that the reality of the situation in that era dictated the presence of Jesuits.  With the combined effects of their own entrenched attitudes, and their enemies constant political attacks, the Jesuits were swept into expulsion.  Mexico and her native peoples were poorer for it.

IMHO, in the final analysis they were too good at what they did.

Take care,

Joe

Dear Lamar,

"Your statement is correct, my friend. When a person attempts to translate Latin into English on a word-by-word basis, problems tend to arise very quickly. While Latin and English share some linguistic sentiments, very often Latin translators will discover themselves at an impasse, mainly because the Latin words may have many different meanings to them, depending wholly upon their usage and even placement, in a statement."

I am familiar with that problem through my minimal study of the Jicarilla and Western Apache dialects.  Much of the overall meaning will be lost trying to translate one word at a time.  Words preceeding or following a word can cause subtle changes in how the traslation turns out.  It takes more than a dictionary to completely understand another language.

Take care,

Joe

Good evening Gentlemen:  Try Yaqui, the same word can be utilized in many different configurations and depending upon it's  accompanying and inflective / tonal qualities can  gave 180 degree meanings.  They say you have to be born a Yaqui to actually understand it.   Quien sabe.

Our  Yankee language has a 'somewhat' similar situation such as ---
  OH, OH?  oh, OH!  or  Yes!  Yes?  yes, Yes.

OH, is that correct?
oh, that is correct.
OH!  and on.

 So unfortunately we cannot know precisely what the originator had in mind when he first put it down on paper.  We can only second guess later by the way things progressed, following his written statement.  

As for Jesuits being involved in mining sigh.

 Why was the resident Jesuit at Yecora so agitated upon seeing the Tayopa logo on my truck???

What was the lone Jesuit doing climbing around the Tayopa area where he eventually fell to his death?  There was only one Indian Family living within 20 miles at that time?  The cliff where he fell to his death, is still known as
"El Cero de la Cura"

Why were the three young Jesuits looking for the Gold mine  in that iron rich area near  Chinapas, Chih.?

I can go on for quite a bit, but the above are sufficient to show my point.

As ORO has stated, perhaps it was illegal for an individual to possess riches,  but otherwise anything was accepted to further the Order, even to furnishing some Churches lavishly under the  thought of showing greater adoration and futher impressing the Indians more positively and so aquirng more converts..

Mineral wealth was almost to be considered as a gift from the Above, perhaps even as an order to utilize it.  The Indians in the area of Tayopa were ordered to  never show any minerals to anyone else but a Jesuit, that minerals were from the Above, and only the Jesuits were supposed to touch them .

Don Jose  de La Mancha

Real de Toyopa wrote:

“ As for Jesuits being involved in mining sigh.

 Why was the resident Jesuit at Yecora so agitated upon seeing the Tayopa logo on my truck???

What was the lone Jesuit doing climbing around the Tayopa area where he eventually fell to his death?  There was only one Indian Family living within 20 miles at that time?  The cliff where he fell to his death, is still known as
"El Cero de la Cura"

Why were the three young Jesuits looking for the Gold mine  in that iron rich area near  Chinapas, Chih.?

I can go on for quite a bit, but the above are sufficient to show my point. “

No it wont, some members of the viewing audience will consider these references “ questionable “ due to the lack of reference to historical documents. Of course your interpretation of these events cant be taken into account either.

Rochha

[trade disputes]

Lamar wrote

The Jesuits were suppressed in Germany, my friend

Oh lets split hairs, Prussia and not Germany then.  After all Prussia isn't part of Germany right?

"The conflicts began with trade disputes, in 1750 in Portugal, in 1755 in France, and in the late 1750s in the Two Sicilies. " <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_the_Jesuits>

Now just how poor were those Jesuit missions again, that they were involved in trade disputes?  Haven't we hijacked this thread far enough OFF topic now, to realize that some folks see things differently when it comes to the Jesuits? You say tomato, I say gold mine, er oops! 
Oroblanco


BTW for anyone on the fence I would suggest you research the history of the Jesuit expulsion from France and French colonial America, and Portuguese colonies for some clues as to just how wealthy the Jesuits had become.

Good evening Gentlemen:  Try Yaqui, the same word can be utilized in many different configurations and depending upon it's  accompanying and inflective / tonal qualities  gave 180 degree meanings.  They say you have to be born a Yaqui to actually understand it.   Quien sabe.

Our  Yankee language has a 'somewhat' similar situation such as ---
  OH, OH?  oh, OH!  or  Yes!  Yes?  yes, Yes.

OH, is that correct?
oh, that is correct.
OH!  and on.

 So unfortunately we cannot know precisely what the originator had in mind when he first put it down on paper.  We can only second guess later by the way things progressed, following his written statement. 

As for Jesuits being involved in mining sigh.

 Why was the resident Jesuit at Yecora so agitated upon seeing the Tayopa logo on my truck???

What was the lone Jesuit doing climbing around the Tayopa area where he eventually fell to his death?  There was only one Indian Family living within 20 miles at that time?  The cliff where he fell to his death, is still known as
"El Cero de la Cura"

Why were the three young Jesuits looking for the Gold mine  in that iron rich area near  Chinapas, Chih.?

I can go on for quite a bit, but the above are sufficient to show my point.

As ORO has stated, perhaps it was illegal for an individual to possess riches,  but otherwise anything was accepted to further the Order, even to furnishing some Churches lavishly under the  thought of showing greater adoration and futher impressing the Indians more positively and so aquirng more converts..

Mineral wealth was almost to be considered as a gift from the Above, perhaps even as an order to utilize it.  The Indians in the area of Tayopa were ordered to  never show any minerals to anyone else but a Jesuit, that minerals were from the Above, and only the Jesuits were supposed to touch them .

Don Jose  de La Mancha

Dear Real de Tayopa;
OK, my friend, I'll bite. First, nobody and I mean this sincerely, NOBODY really knows what the Yaqui language comprises as so much of the language has been lost or heavily modified by Spanish throughout the preceeding centuries. What little that is known about the Yaqui language when the colonists arrived was recorded by the Jesuits, who were the only ones who showed even a slight interest in the preservation and study of indigenous dialects. That they recorded, studied and even attempterd to communicate in the native dialects speaks much of their intellect and strategies.

Next, how did you know for a fact that the person was a card-carrying Jesuit? (Just a figure of speech, as Catholics don't carry membership cards) Did he announce himself to you as a Jesuit? How did you even know for a fact that he was a Roman Catholic priest? Many Protestant ministers affect the same dress habits as our Roman Catholic clergy, and also, as a point of fact, the Society of Jesus has never prescribed a particular habit for the Order. As a point of fact, the Roman Catholic Church does not prescribe any particular form of dress for an of it's clergy, including both it's Ordered members and secular ones. Therefore, how did you know that the person was a Jesuit?

In regards to the person who fell to his unfortunate death, AVM, once again, how did anyone ascertain that the deceased was a member of the Society of Jesus? Perhaps the person in question was an historian? This is quite possible as there are a great many Jesuit historians within the Society and most of those are of the amateur class. Highly educated amateurs, but amatuers never the less, my friend.

Once again, how did anyone know that the 3 young men were Jesuits and how were they able to tell that the young men were searching for gold? Perhaps they were geology students and were on a field trip? This is a likely possibilty, as it is a well known fact that the best geologists are the ones who've seen the most rocks.

As far as wealth of the missions is concerned, no one can state that any single mission had an overabundance of wealth in the form of hard currency, my friend. One can point to the churches and churches of the New World settlements and state "See all of that lavish wealth adorning the church? This PROVES that the Jesuits were illegally mining gold and/or silver!" A statement such as that one is patently untrue and it shows ignor@nce of the Roman Catholic faith and the beliefs of Her members.

All one needs to do is to study the oppulent churches and cathedrals situated throughout Spain and then one soon realizes that it was the wealthy parish patrons who footed the bills for all of that oppulence and lavishment. Those self-same beliefs went with the colonists to the New World settlements and it was quite fashionable for wealthy parish patrons to attempt to *outdo* other parish members as far as donating to the adornment and maintenance of the churches.

In fact, it has been commented a few times by various clergy that some of the New World settlers were tending to go a bit overboard on donating adornments and overlooking the plight of the poor, which was a far greater consideration, especially for the missionaries.

That the chapels, churches and cathedrals were so richly adorned was NOT to impress ANYONE. This is a very common fallacy among non-Catholics and one which I feel needs addressing.  The Roman Catholic Church has been adorning Her holy places of worship for at least 1,000 years prior to the Spaniards settling the New World, my friend and it has nothing to do with impressing anyone or trying to keep up with the Joneses.

It was written as early as the 3rd century AD that all churches should be adorned as lavishly as possible in order to greater please our Lord. This tradtion stems from the earlier Jewish tradition and it has been written in early Roman Catholic documents that a person shall remain humble and modest in all things and to not display wealth, except for God's house. I still follow this custom and affect a robe and sandals(boots during the cold months) when I attend Mass as a sign of humility and modesty as did a great many medieval Roman Catholic worshippers.

Therefore, the church adornments did not come from any type of illicit mining activity on the part of the Jesuits, rather the adornments stemmed from donations by wealthy patrons of the mission. In fact, it's a common custom for the patron to pay for a single portion of the churchs' construction directly from their own pocket, without the clergy ever touching the money. For example, if I pledged to burden the expense of a stained glass window, it would be my responsibility to pay the builder(s) directly without using an intermediary. In other words, I would make all the arrangements myself without any intervention from the parish priest, except to plan the time and date of the construction. This is typically how it's done and it avoids any unecessary accusations of mismanagement at a later date.

I hope this clears up a few misconceptions about the Roman Catholic church and our customs, traditions and beliefs.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Roy, shilt'lye,

The Catholic Church learned many, many years ago, that from single drops of rain, mighty rivers flow.  Why do you think they are so against birth control.  More hands to drop money in the collection plate is a popular theory.  Some of those hands were quite wealthy.  The Kennedy Clan come easily to mind.

You may be right.  Perhaps they were the biggest mining consortium in the New World, and just never got caught.  Pretty lucky, I would say.  On the other hand, those huge furnaces and that large treasure building indicate that the Spanish soldiers and the officials from Mexico City were pretty dense,
not to mention the other mine owners in the area.

Take care,

Joe

[trade disputes]

Lamar wrote

The Jesuits were suppressed in Germany, my friend

Oh lets split hairs, Prussia and not Germany then.  After all Prussia isn't part of Germany right?

"The conflicts began with trade disputes, in 1750 in Portugal, in 1755 in France, and in the late 1750s in the Two Sicilies. " <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_the_Jesuits>

Now just how poor were those Jesuit missions again, that they were involved in trade disputes?  Haven't we hijacked this thread far enough OFF topic now, to realize that some folks see things differently when it comes to the Jesuits? You say tomato, I say gold mine, er oops!  
Oroblanco


BTW for anyone on the fence I would suggest you research the history of the Jesuit expulsion from France and French colonial America, and Portuguese colonies for some clues as to just how wealthy the Jesuits had become.

Dear oroblanco;
Actually, at the time of the Jesuit expulsion, Prussia was a not a German possession, therefore I am correct in this regard. Prussia did not become a part of the German Empire until 1815 AD, which is after the expulsion and it's not hair splitting, it's maintaining historical accuracy so as to curtail future arguments, my friend.

Who said ANYTHING about the New World Jesuit missionaries being involved in trade disputes? In case you are unaware of this, I shall enlighten you. There were a great many Jesuits sprinkled throughout the European Royal courts of power and it was THOSE Jesuits whom involved in trade disputes and even this is still a matter of contention. That there were certain Jesuits involved in the myriad of European trade disputes when they should have maintained a policy of strict neutrality is not in contention, rather it's their level of involvement which is unclear. The Jesuits were, and in some cases still are, the chief confessors of many members of political goverments and therefore they would have been the most likely candidates to have been blamed for international disagreements, yet this has NOTHING to do with the Jesuits of the New World.

About the supposed *wealth* of the Jesuits, first we must consider the source of the information before we pass any judgements. The French and the Portugues wanted the Jesuits expelled and they searched for any reason to do so. They initiated problems which did not exist and they also accused the Jesuits, both verbally and in writing. In an act of fairness, the succeeding missionaries went to great pangs to examine the charges levied against the Jesuits and without exception, they found them to be totally unfounded. For example, a certain Jesuit mission in the Portuguese colonies *supposedly* had a balance of over 5,000 escudos, yet when the registers were examined by the Franciscans, they discovered that the mission was actually in the red by 36 escudos.

Once again, if a person only reads a certain portion of the available facts, they can then construe anything against anyone, yet when one looks at the big picture the truth tends to emerge rather quickly.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[For many years, the Yaqui lived peacefully in a relationship with the Jesuit missionaries. This resulted in considerable mutual advantage: the Yaqui were able to develop a very productive economy, and the missionaries were able to employ the wealth created to extend their missionary activities further north.]

This can be found at:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqui_Indians

[The Yaqui were never conquered militarily by the Spanish, defeating successive expeditions of conquistadores in battle. However, they were successfully converted to Christianity by the Jesuits, who convinced them to settle into eight towns: Pótam, Vícam, Tórim, Bácum, Cócorit, Huirivis, Belem, and Rahum.

For many years, the Yaqui lived peacefully in a relationship with the Jesuit missionaries. This resulted in considerable mutual advantage: the Yaqui were able to develop a very productive economy, and the missionaries were able to employ the wealth created to extend their missionary activities further north. In the 1730s the Spanish colonial government began to alter this relationship, and eventually ordered all Jesuits out of Sonora. This created considerable unrest amongst the Yaqui and led to several rebellions. Further, the Franciscan priests never arrived to be their religious leaders, leaving the Yaqui with no western religious ties.]

The Yaqui, on a regular basis, left the Jesuit missions to work in the Spanish mines.  They would work long enough to earn the money for whatever they wanted to buy, and then return to the missions.

Once again, one of the books I would recommend reading is "Missionaries Miners & Indians" by Evelyn Hu-De Hart.  It's a very detailed account of the relationship between the Yaqui and the Jesuits, as well as how they survived after the Jesuits expulsion.  Just wanted to throw that in, because I feel the book really epitomizes the workings of the Jesuit mission system.

Joe Ribaudo

Dear cactusjumper;
It's always a pleasant and refreshing change to read about the actual historcial facts rather than the typical the latest batch of grist from the conspiracy mill. I happen to know of Mrs. Hu-Dehart by reputation and she is a prolific ayther as well a professor of history. Her conclusions are always 100% accurate and her surmations difficult to debate from any angle. She has done much to promote the history of the indiginous populations of the Americas during it's colonization.

I do tire of reading posts such as:
About the Jesuits and any wrong-doing - gee, I think there was a reason the King of Spain ordered them out, 1767, the King of France 1764 and the King of Portugal in 1759.

Not to mention the "Church" (the Pope) who ordered them disbanded forever.  (Pope Clement XIV - July 1773).

You'd think they were ordered out for do-gooding, or do you think that maybe - just maybe - they had their reasons for doing so???

Also, you would think that the fact that the Indians, who massacred as many Jesuits as they could find when they got tired of doing their mining is not a GLARING
example of their activities.  The Indians loved the Franciscans that came after the Jesuits - specifically because they were treated well and not stuck in more slavery.

The Franciscans even wrote about how surprised they were by the Indians moderate demeanor and friendly attitudes.  They were also shocked that the Pima's and the Papagos were not in the least bit indoctrinated with the "faith". 

B

Observations such as this do not even warrant a serious reply, as the contents befuddle me in that anyone would have the temerity to write such unfactual things in the first place. Stating that the Jesuits were hated by the natives and the Franciscans were adored by the same simply boggles the mind, my friend. How anyone even attempt to twist around the facts in such a manner? Perhaps it was posted in jest, for surely it cannot be taken seriously.

Once again, thank you for posting some actual historical information, my friend. Far too many treasure hunters are so hung up on the supposed involvement of the Jesuits in the New World that they miss the golden opportunity of a lifetime. The clue lies in what you've previously posted, my friend.

The Yaqui, on a regular basis, left the Jesuit missions to work in the Spanish mines.  They would work long enough to earn the money for whatever they wanted to buy, and then return to the missions.

From these two sentences we now know that the Yaquis worked in the Spanish mines. We may also surmise that the mines were being worked enough that the Yaquis had no trouble gaining employment at said mines. We also know there were no banks to speak of during the period and we know that the mine owners were the Spanish colonists. So, what happened to all of the Spanish gold and silver??? I'll be willing to bet that the Spaniards left behind some sizable caches in and around their homes, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[For many years, the Yaqui lived peacefully in a relationship with the Jesuit missionaries. This resulted in considerable mutual advantage: the Yaqui were able to develop a very productive economy, and the missionaries were able to employ the wealth created to extend their missionary activities further north.]

This can be found at:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqui_Indians

[The Yaqui were never conquered militarily by the Spanish, defeating successive expeditions of conquistadores in battle. However, they were successfully converted to Christianity by the Jesuits, who convinced them to settle into eight towns: Pótam, Vícam, Tórim, Bácum, Cócorit, Huirivis, Belem, and Rahum.

For many years, the Yaqui lived peacefully in a relationship with the Jesuit missionaries. This resulted in considerable mutual advantage: the Yaqui were able to develop a very productive economy, and the missionaries were able to employ the wealth created to extend their missionary activities further north. In the 1730s the Spanish colonial government began to alter this relationship, and eventually ordered all Jesuits out of Sonora. This created considerable unrest amongst the Yaqui and led to several rebellions. Further, the Franciscan priests never arrived to be their religious leaders, leaving the Yaqui with no western religious ties.]

The Yaqui, on a regular basis, left the Jesuit missions to work in the Spanish mines.  They would work long enough to earn the money for whatever they wanted to buy, and then return to the missions.

Once again, one of the books I would recommend reading is "Missionaries Miners & Indians" by Evelyn Hu-De Hart.  It's a very detailed account of the relationship between the Yaqui and the Jesuits, as well as how they survived after the Jesuits expulsion.  Just wanted to throw that in, because I feel the book really epitomizes the workings of the Jesuit mission system.

Joe Ribaudo

Joe,

Hate to rain on your parade, but the quote you posted from Wikipedia is not correct. While I admit that I still have not read DeHart's Book, I HAVE read books by the most eminent Jesuit and Spanish Colonial Historians (H.E. Bolton, T.E. Treutline, Father Ernest Burrus SJ, and Father Charles W Polzer SJ). I think you said that have Polzer's book on the Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain. I think you should actually take it down off the shelf and read it again!

If the Jesuits were so kind and wonderful to all the Indians that they held in their care, then WHY were the Jesuits and their Mayordomos the principle targets of EVERY Indian uprising from the mid-1600s until the Jesuit Expulsion in 1767? I USED to think like you do, that is, until I read the words of the Jesuit fathers themselves!

I have been requoting this book so often that it seems to be pretty much replicated in toto in this thread. HAHAHA Buuuuuuut:

Some have been so interested in temporal gains that they have obliged the Indians to continual labor to the extent that the Indians have been unable to attend their own crops, thus the laymen have had reason to calumniate us regarding the Indian's situation and even claimed that we have enslaved the natives along with other serious charges.

........among the educated people, it has been found that they irreparably damage the reputation of the Priests; and among the Indians, it has been found that they act out of hate and vengeance because they were beaten at the order of the Fathers.

That's good enough for now.

Best-Mike

[Are you saying that Jesuits are in fact some kind of secret agents?]

Ah, gentle folk, our topic in this thread is Book: Treasure Secrets of the LD by Kenworthy, 1997 correct?  Oh well....


Sorry if I will not agree with you Lamar, nor will I quit posting the other view of Jesuit history.  Your set of barrister-like questions to our amigo Real de Tayopa about what sort of clothing those men wore, how do you know what they were looking for etc are what one would expect in a courtroom when a defendant has been accused of a CRIME.  In fact the way you have phrased your questions, makes those men sound more like some kind of "secret agents" - for we can't know what they were up to, can't tell whom they were by their garb, etc. Are you saying that Jesuits are in fact some kind of secret agents?    Sheesh!

I have no clue how to tie this back in to our actual subject. 
Oroblanco

An encounter between two vastly different people will inevitably result in bringing out the best and worst in both. This was true in New Mexico as the Spanish and Indians first faced each other four centuries ago. The Spanish felt that they had to make the Indians copies of themselves in order to make them good Christians. Naturally, the Indians resented this, and in their rejection of this "Europeanization," some rejected the evangelization efforts as well. This resulted in a very sad chapter in New Mexico’s history, as the Pueblo Revolt of 1680 pitted one group of God’s children against another.

There was eventually a reconciliation in 1692. As the old Spanish proverb says, No hay mal de que por bien no venga. (There is no evil from which good cannot come). This was true of the understanding reached between the two peoples after they agreed to peacefully coexist. The Spanish returned with a greater humility, still intent on preaching the Gospel, but seeking to do so in a way that respectfully took into account all that was good and holy in the native beliefs. The Indians, for their part, realized that they could not turn the clock back and that much of what the Spanish brought was beneficial, including the Catholic faith whose ritual and symbolism was similar to their beliefs and practices.

It is clear to us today that there were many failings on the part of the Spanish, including the failings of the Franciscan friars. There were incidences of cruelty and mistreatment, lack of respect for the native autonomy, culture and religious values. There was bloodletting on both sides, Spanish and native people. For these failings "we seek forgiveness and reconciliation."

Yet despite the failings, so much good has come to all people. Can you imagine the past 400 years without the cattle, horses and mules brought by the Spanish? What would it have been like these 400 years without the sheep and its wool to warm us on cold nights? The horses and the mules? Imagine a land without wheat and the horno in which to bake oven bread! Farm implements, codified laws, the idea of personal property, a written language. All these came with the settlers and enhanced the quality of life for all.

The imminent pueblo scholar and historian Professor Joe Sando has written of these positive accomplishments also. He notes that the Pueblo Indians have fared much better under the Spanish than the Indians on the East Coast of the United States. There are no Indian markets in Boston or New York! Their Indian culture was pretty well destroyed. Here in New Mexico, Indian culture still flourishes.

It is also clear that the Spanish benefited from the Native American presence. Where would they or any of us be without beans, squash and corn and the tortillas made from the corn? And to live with the Native Americans in this enchanted and beautiful land with majestic snow-covered mountains, deep valleys, dark forests, trout-filled streams and incredible sunsets. We have all benefited by the Indian's love for the land and care for the environment that God created for all. How powerful and meaningful are their dances, the sound of the drums and the tribal rituals. The Indian's respect for the Great Spirit and their hospitality at the celebration of their feast days is inspiring.

This isn't to say there was no mistreatment of the Indians. But we have to try to see the big picture and to appreciate that we all have sought to live together in peace for many years.

Building on Solid Foundation
The 400th anniversary of the faith in New Mexico is a time of affirming our communion with the Universal Church, and our loyalty to the Holy Father and the bishops. This means to teach the faith, in doctrine and morals, as set forth by the Church; it means to celebrate the faith in the liturgy as the Church celebrates it; and it means to live the faith in solidarity. "A time to accept the uniqueness and giftedness of each person." It is a time for building on a sound foundation of 400 years.
Accomplishments of the Past
Building on their diversity, New Mexican Catholics have been able to accomplish much together and for which they can be proud.

•A Christian community older than the establishments at Jamestown or Plymouth Roc
•Spanish missions older by 150 years than the missions of California or Texas
•The oldest image of the Madonna in the New World (La Conquistadora, Our Lady of Peace in Santa Fe)
•The first native born priest, Santiago Roybal ordained in 1732
•The first school system in the State of New Mexico
•The first hospitals in New Mexico
•A proud record of lay involvement in the spread and maintenance of the faith
•The mother diocese of all the other dioceses of the American Southwest
And, this list goes on and on!

  Hey Santa Fe great photos, by the way,where can I order 1 of those commerative medals.Also very nice gold vein, looks like easy pickins,not hard rock. Since I own some land in Candy Kitchen, we are sort of neighbors,although I live in Nevada. I appreciate your educated imputs.gd

Yeah Santa Fe,

Where did you get those pics?

[Are you saying that Jesuits are in fact some kind of secret agents?]

....Are you saying that Jesuits are in fact some kind of secret agents?    Sheesh!

Now that's an interesting can of worms, Oro.

[Are you saying that Jesuits are in fact some kind of secret agents?]

Ah, gentle folk, our topic in this thread is Book: Treasure Secrets of the LD by Kenworthy, 1997 correct?  Oh well....


Sorry if I will not agree with you Lamar, nor will I quit posting the other view of Jesuit history.  Your set of barrister-like questions to our amigo Real de Tayopa about what sort of clothing those men wore, how do you know what they were looking for etc are what one would expect in a courtroom when a defendant has been accused of a CRIME.  In fact the way you have phrased your questions, makes those men sound more like some kind of "secret agents" - for we can't know what they were up to, can't tell whom they were by their garb, etc. Are you saying that Jesuits are in fact some kind of secret agents?    Sheesh!

I have no clue how to tie this back in to our actual subject. 
Oroblanco

Dear Oroblanco;
No, of course not! The prescribed wearing of habits for Roman Catholic religious Orders was beginning to fall from vogue by the time the Society of Jesus was being formed, mostly because of the logistical difficulties in accquiring the proper cloth in the correct colors, finding a person who was skilled in cutting and manufacturing the garments, etc. Most Jesuit missionaries took to wearing black or brown robes in the missions as over time this became an unofficial habit of sorts, however, even though the Jesuits TRADITIONALLY now wear black robes, there does not exist an express rule or order requiring them to do so.

Over the centuries, most of the strict mendicant Orders have relaxed the dress habits of their members in order that the members blend in easier with the secular society and therefore more easily become accepted as members of a particular society or culture. A perfect example of the relaxing of traditional religious dress may be witnessed in the photo below of Fr. Reginald Foster, a Carmelite priest and one of the worlds' finest Latin linguists. In the photo below, Fr. Foster is wearing his typical working habit and we are starting to see this more and more among Roman Catholic priests and not just the Jesuits.

As an aside. Fr. Foster is a very highly acclaimed Latin scholar and professor and he taught at the famed Jesuit Gregorian University in Rome until he was *terminated* by the University staff for permitting unpaid students to attend his classes. To quote the Catholic News Agency on Fr. Foster's termination:
"According to the source, Fr. Foster, in good spirits, explained to his students the roundabout way he found out he was being fired: "Well you see, the Jesuits were rather Jesuitical about the whole thing, now weren't they?"   After informing them of his plans for an institute, Foster exclaimed, “Latin lives!" It was not disclosed whether the e-mail firing Fr. Foster was in Latin."
Laudo terminus (Quote ended)

And so, we may plainly see that the wearing of traditional garb is mostly one personal preference and not one of actual regulation. I hope this serves to resolve the question of the Jesuits being involved in espionage.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[is]

Skull & Crossbones?  Are you kidding?  Gee, Lamar, now that really is opening a can of worms.  In case you didn't know (yeah, right), this symbol is prominent in the conspiracy theories of the 'organization' that includes Jesuits, among other groups, which controls the treasure cache legends that generates such divisive arguements on this forum and elsewhere.  Bwa ha ha ha.  Good one, Lamar - you have quite the sense of humor.

[students and scholars from around the world]

Springfield,

With that name, you should realize that the Carmel Catholic High School in Mundelein, Illinois
baseball team is called the Corsairs (pirates).  Fr. Reginald Foster is a Carmelite priest (Not Jesuit), and teaches Latin. "He is best known for his famous Latin summer courses which he holds every year.  These courses are attended by students and scholars from around the world". Perhaps you can use that active imagination of yours to find the connection.

On the other hand, there may be no connection at all.

Give it a shot.

Take care,

Joe

[students and scholars from around the world]

Springfield,

With that name, you should realize that the Carmel Catholic High School in Mundelein, Illinois
baseball team is called the Corsairs (pirates).  Fr. Reginald Foster is a Carmelite priest (Not Jesuit), and teaches Latin. "He is best known for his famous Latin summer courses which he holds every year.  These courses are attended by students and scholars from around the world". Perhaps you can use that active imagination of yours to find the connection.

On the other hand, there may be no connection at all.

Give it a shot.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,
It doesn't take much of an imagination to glean the irony (Freudian slip?) in Lamar's post.  Whether the guy is teaching classical Latin to the Carmel Pirates or pig Latin to the NY Yankees is irrelevent - the general discussion was centering on Jesuits and next we see a priest wearing the Jolly Roger as an example of an alternative dress option.  Funny stuff. 

Don't make the mistake relying too heavily on dogma in these types of discussions - an imaginative approach is often a path to new discoveries.

Dear Springfield;
It was merely an example attesting to the diversity of dress which may be found among Roman Catholic clergy in today's world. I posted a photo of Fr. Reggie Foster because he is a Carmelite priest who happens to be posted at the Vatican and this is his normal attire. In fact, he is known as "the Pope's Latinist".

Now, if a Carmelite priest, who works directly for the Pope, can dress in the manner of his own choosing, how can one be certain the priests in Real De Tayopa's post were in fact Jesuits?  There was no irony intended in my example. I have no idea as to the signifigance of the skull & crossbones as it pretains to the fringe conspiracy theorists, as I prefer to spend my time studying actual history instead of alternative histories.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[Book: Treasure Secrets of the LD by Kenworthy]

HOLA amigos,

The owner of this thread has reminded us previously that the subject of this thread is Book: Treasure Secrets of the LD by Kenworthy, and our mutual amigo Gollum so graciously responded,

Gollum wrote

Okay,

For those who wish to debate Jesuit Treasures, I have completed the first part of the thread:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index....c,286969.msg2055760.html#msg2055760

I am guilty of contributing to the continuing hijacking of this thread into lengthy arguments on the Jesuits, which is NOT our topic.  I will respond to the remaining posts which are off-topic, but will not contribute further to the derailing of this thread after this post.

<Oroblanco wrote>

Are you saying that Jesuits are in fact some kind of secret agents?

Springfield replied

Now that's an interesting can of worms, Oro

Lamar replied

Dear Oroblanco;
No, of course not!

Lamar also wrote

Now, if a Carmelite priest, who works directly for the Pope, can dress in the manner of his own choosing, how can one be certain the priests in Real De Tayopa's post were in fact Jesuits?

So you are again implying that they were possibly some kind of "secret agents" traveling incognito, keeping their purposes secret etc - sheesh Lamar you just finished telling us that the Jesuits were NOT some kind of secret agents, then go and imply that they WERE.

Hmmm....

Please look for my responses to any further discussion of Jesuits and their treasures in the thread created for that purpose by our amigo Gollum. 
Oroblanco

Ladies & gentlemen:  It was stated that my data  was unsupported by Historical works? Unfortunately I 'am' the source for the 'new' history reference books to be soon rewritten. Remember, history is always being rewritten as new data is uncovered, or the new data is simply  buried if inconvenient.

 As for the reference book on the Yaqui, may I mention that I intimately lived with them for over 5 years?

That I recovered a huge parcel of land that the Mexicans were taking away from them? Since it included parts of the ciudad of Obregon, it was a legal nightmare to return it, so the gov't built them a large irrigation system instead.

Does the referenced book mention that one of their patron saints, was a Negro?  And why?  Or the fact that they descended from a race of people only 1 meter tall?

Does any of your reference materiel show how the Jesuits set up a system of small missions to be utilized in leap frogging precious metals across northen Mexico to just below Matamorros for trans shipment to Rome?

As for the Jesuit that fell to his death, he was dressed in ordinary clothing, but documents found, showed that he was associated with the Jesuit society.

The Guayajiro Indians that worked the Tayopa mines for the Jesuits, called them the Black robes, but that generally the ones actually working the Tayopas, or other mines, wore ordinary Mexican clothing.

They also said that when the Jesuits were leaving Tayopa, they descended  and went to a  ranch one days mule travel to the East and placed a large no of documents, church ornaments, and bars of both gold & Silver in a prepared depository, then covered it with perhaps 10 ft of soil?  ORO will open this up later.

As for the three young men, they were dressed in plain clothing, but after establishing confidence  - I really am a nice guy  -  confided that they were looking for a small Gold Mine.  I was working with the Local Priest in Chinapas at that time, which helped.

It has been stated in TN else where, that I have found supporting  evidence of the Jesuit involvement,  in collaboration with the Dutch, to take the Northern Americas away from Spain.  This was the true reason that they were simultaneously expelled from all of North America on the same date and time..  An ordinary expulsion would not have required such precise timing.

This will do for a  start, but a word of caution, remember history is constantly being rewritten.

Don Jose de La Mancha

My apologies  Gullum:  what I started out to show was that all books, including history books, are subject to errors.  Since I am intimately involved with Tayopa, having found it,  I naturally use it, and it's associated search to back my  posts.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Dear Real de Tayopa;
In other words, the supposed Jesuits were most likely not Jesuits at all, were they?
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar wrote

the supposed Jesuits were most likely not Jesuits at all, were they?

GHOST DOG: CONTACT OUR FRIEND DOUGLAS FOR ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THE COMMEMORATIVE MEDALIONS: For those of you that dont know Douglas Magnus heres his story.             Cerrillos Turquoise Mines;
Ancient and Modern Historical Considerations
By Douglas Magnus
Some of the ancient Cerrillos mines, abandoned and neglected at various intervals during the last 1000+ years are now under my guardianship since 1988. However, the mines date back to 600A.D. according to archeologists Joan Mathien, Wiengand, and Harbottle who have studied them extensively, and their connections to Toltec to Anazasi cultures amongst other, and the Cerrillos mines have been examined and the focus of research more recently by Mostafa Fayek and Alyson Thibedoux. There is no questioning the long held opinion that Cerrillos turquoise was mined and traded in ancient times into the Mesoamerican cultures, including Toltec, Zapotec, Mixtec and Aztec if not others. More recent research has not proven the extent of these conjectures but the physical evidence is irrefutable. These ancient mines are a testament to the industry of their makers, and the volumes of turquoise produced surely went far south, very likely through Anazazi trade networks.
 Contact Info
Magnus Studios

Douglas Magnus

www.douglasmagnus.com

www.douglasmagnus.net (our new blog pages)

email One:    info@douglasmagnus.com

email two:     heartline@newmexico.com

905 Early Street, Santa Fe , New Mexico, 87505

505-983-6777 ….fax 505-983-0810
                 

Lamar,

Our knowlege of history changes - is what Jose is saying - when new things come up, it may change what we think we know.  (that includes you too, Lamar).

It could also mean that there were many more Jesuits involved.................................


Here is where there is a snag - Not all Jesuits were bad, not all Jesuits were good. (much like every other religious orders).  The very fact that you refuse to acknowledge even ONE instance of misconduct - is, at best - suspect.  It is a very high indication that you are the victim of  one of two things - either you don't want to know - or, you have a very important dog in the fight.  I'm truly wondering which it is.

B

Dear mrs.oroblanco;
I agree wholeheartedly that perceptions change when the arrival of new information!
Your friend;
LAMAR

Good evening:  Last intended post on Tayopa and the Jesuits.

I don't suppose that my X assoc.,  that was Jesuit trained, but never Ordained, who had an Audience with the no. 2 in the hierarchy of the Jesuits in Rome, in which he impudently asked "If My discovery of the Jesuit Plot to take  North America away from Spain had any basis"?  was rewarded with a laugh, and "Yes, but We don't do such things any more",  has any value?

The resident Jesuit Priest in Yecora was wearing brown robes, but introduced himself as a Jesuit and said that whenever I managed to get to Yecora we were to spend the night drinking coffee discussing Tayopa  etc.

He was with a truckload of kiddies from Yecora on a sight seeing tour of Alamos in a big old truck.  He was filling the truck with gasoline for the return trip.

Why would an acknowledged Jesuit wish to talk about Tayopa and other data that I had about the Jesuits' past activities in the region?

There is much more, but for various reasons, I do not wish to go into it any further, since it may jeopardize my project of locating all of the string of small missions proving the existence of their  method of clandestinely moving Precious metals from the Tayopa mines to Rome.  

Some were located where there were no Indian populations of any size, if at all, at that time???  Just the required one day's passage apart for loaded mules and burros.

They never shipped any metal aboard Spanish ships for obvious reasons.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Dear Real de Tayopa;
If you've actually spoken to a Jesuit wearing a brown robe, then you should consider yourself fortunate, my friend, as seeing a robe-wearing Jesuit is akin to seeing Bigfoot. Did you by chance happen to take a photo or two of the auspicious event? I've never actually seen a real Jesuit wearing a robe of any color, much less a brown one!
Your friend;
LAMAR

Gee, I wonder if that is the VERY reason why our own United States has, on record, the Secret Treaty of Verona in its archives.

I think it is far from over.

B

Amen Brother!

For those that are skeptics about the Spanish treasure trails and Kenworthy’s Signs and Symbols book:

Now I don't give heck where he got the signs, they helped me find a Spanish Silver Mine in Kentucky! If you look at the picture you will see that there is a rock map, if you look at it real good you will see several figures right out of the book. Oh yea, I photographed these in 1983 ( a friend and I started looking but put it on hold for 25 years) which is why I didn't know what it was trying to tell me. This past year I got Kenworthy’s book on signs and symbols, and well…..the map then made sense. I found the mine and then went backwards and guess what I found? Several Spanish style markings, each one is reproduced on the large rock map…oh and the rock map is on the back of a turtle shaped rock! The person I believe was the engraver had his name carved near it (no I cannot prove it).  Does this go to the credibility of Kenworthy? I think so. I have not read anything of his other than the signs and symbols. I am glad I did and have written the exploits down and will soon try to post a summary of it all. Oh, thank goodness one of the other forum contributors had found some for the signs and posted photos a long time ago or I would have been accused of making them myself.  Why am I posting this?  To show that the signs and symbols are a valuable contribution to at least the armatures like me in Thing. We have not attained the higher elevations of intellect that these criticmasters have but we are not doing too bad. We could do a lot more if they would share!

The notorious hijacking team just loves to do this stuff. If you didn't know they do it on a lot of threads.  They always claim to have this mystic knowledge and access to things you cannot find. Well hogwash! They change the topic because they don't want a full discussion on the subject…maybe the reason is they don't want you to put any store in the topic because others might do it to and someone may just find what they are looking for, and they couldn't stand that. Disinformation is their game. Just tell them to put up or shut up and place some money on it.

Let see the last posts they made with any information we could use was….hmmm well yes it had to be…well, oh my just when was it?

I do have to agree with some of the criticism, and we should welcome that as it keeps us stating the truth and not just conjecture when we post. As for former Treasure Hunters that were writers, most of those legends were based on some facts; they were embellished and caused many people to dream the dream that has brought most of us into this TH thing. So even if they did stretch things a little as long as it wasn't and out and out lie maybe it didn't hurt anything.
 As for us, we have a great number of readers who will hold us to the highest accountability and I for one welcome that. It's the on and on bantering that irks me. State your opinion and the facts, with documentation and photos, and discuss them but don't call each other liars and go thru this list again of point and counter point (it's been done time and time again). Get that chip of your shoulder and post some good stuff I can use! If you spent half the time sharing some info on what the Jesuits really did (and named the research sources like maybe Parkman or someone) then you would be doing more good than the harm your criticism does. And it might get you a lot more credibility. Oh I know you'll say “I don't need your credibility, we know this whole thing is a game to you. For most of us it isn't. Now post something I can use about the Spaniards that may have been the ones who were in Kentucky near the town of Grayson! I don't need "spoon fed" or "led around" as you have previously mentioned, just give me some resources/places to look! Its new to me, (a year or so) and i don't know where to start ......did you when you first started? Come on have compassion on these guys like the Jesuits would have! Help us out! They were pretty free with most of their stuff, at least the French ones were, they wrote neat stuff on day to day happenings, battles, places of interest, conversions, debt, inventory, etc.

 

Top post Curtis my friend.  You have done correctly, ignoring the negativity and found your goal.  congrats my friend. 

Let Curtis stand as an example my friends, he used  the book for help and despite of pages of data, even books proving that his object didn't exist, he found it.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Lamar  sigh:  He was tall with a magnificent black beard.

No I didn't take any pictures, demand documents signed by the Pope, nor go for a strip search to see what he might be wearing underneath.  I still have no idea if he was wearing shoes or sandals since the robe reached to the ground, as  a matter of fact it wouldn't have made any difference.

Another point, most of the priests here in Alamos do wear robes and normal business clothes interchangeably.  Most of the robes are black, symbolic, and thin.

I never saw Fr Charles Polzer in anything but normal civilian clothing.

So where is your big foot picture??  I have done my part, now you do yours'.

Don Jose de La Mancha

P.S how about congrats for Curtis, Lamar my friend?

Dear Curtis;
You are the man, my friend! Congratulations and salutations!!!! Hear, hear!!!
Your friend;
LAMAR

[So now you call our mutual amigo Don Jose a liar?]

Lamar wrote

Dear Real de Tayopa;
If you've actually spoken to a Jesuit wearing a brown robe, then you should consider yourself fortunate, my friend, as seeing a robe-wearing Jesuit is akin to seeing Bigfoot. Did you by chance happen to take a photo or two of the auspicious event? I've never actually seen a real Jesuit wearing a robe of any color, much less a brown one!

So now you call our mutual amigo Don Jose a liar?   What a courteous response.  What did you expect the man to be wearing, his birthday suit?  Do you make such a claim of authority on the Jesuits, that you can say for a certainty that no Jesuit ever wore a brown robe? 
 
Curtis wrote

For those that are skeptics about the Spanish treasure trails and Kenworthy’s Signs and Symbols book:

Now I don't give heck where he got the signs, they helped me find a Spanish Silver Mine in Kentucky!

That sort of makes the issue of whether Kenworthy was telling the truth a moot point - how could one claim Kenworthy was wrong, when his information worked?  Congratulations Curtis!

Don Jose', Dueno de Real y Minas de Tayopa wrote

<LAMAR> So where is your big foot picture? I have done my part, now you do yours'.

I would also love to see your photo of Bigfoot, Lamar - and have many questions which will naturally arise! 
Oroblanco

[So now you call our mutual amigo Don Jose a liar?]

Lamar wrote

Dear Real de Tayopa;
If you've actually spoken to a Jesuit wearing a brown robe, then you should consider yourself fortunate, my friend, as seeing a robe-wearing Jesuit is akin to seeing Bigfoot. Did you by chance happen to take a photo or two of the auspicious event? I've never actually seen a real Jesuit wearing a robe of any color, much less a brown one!

So now you call our mutual amigo Don Jose a liar?   What a courteous response.  What did you expect the man to be wearing, his birthday suit?  Do you make such a claim of authority on the Jesuits, that you can say for a certainty that no Jesuit ever wore a brown robe? 
 
Curtis wrote

For those that are skeptics about the Spanish treasure trails and Kenworthy’s Signs and Symbols book:

Now I don't give heck where he got the signs, they helped me find a Spanish Silver Mine in Kentucky!

That sort of makes the issue of whether Kenworthy was telling the truth a moot point - how could one claim Kenworthy was wrong, when his information worked?  Congratulations Curtis!

Don Jose', Dueno de Real y Minas de Tayopa wrote

<LAMAR> So where is your big foot picture? I have done my part, now you do yours'.

I would also love to see your photo of Bigfoot, Lamar - and have many questions which will naturally arise! 
Oroblanco

Dear Oroblanco;
Oh, ye of little faith!
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2009/12/10/
Your friend;
LAMAR

Muchas gracias amigo Lamar, very interesting photo for sure!   
Oroblanco

Muchas gracias amigo Lamar, very interesting photo for sure!   
Oroblanco

I see that cabin fever has struck the north woods again - time for a little fun amongst the locals.  Interesting pic, yes - pretty bad bigfoot costume though.  Way too much slack in the leggings.  I tend to be open-minded about BF (my best friend had a harrowing experience with one near Weaverville, CA in the '60's), but I wouldn't post this photo on my bulletin board. 

Muchas gracias amigo Lamar, very interesting photo for sure!   
Oroblanco

I see that cabin fever has struck the north woods again - time for a little fun amongst the locals.  Interesting pic, yes - pretty bad bigfoot costume though.  Way too much slack in the leggings.  I tend to be open-minded about BF (my best friend had a harrowing experience with one near Weaverville, CA in the '60's), but I wouldn't post this photo on my bulletin board. 

Dear Springfield;
Who's the skeptic NOW, my friend?!?!?!
Your friend;
LAMAR

The Apache Nation
In early August of 2006, the Searching for Bigfoot team, led by Tom Biscardi, came back to the White Mountain Apache Reservation, in Whiteriver Arizona. We met with our good friends, Collette Altaha and A.K. Riley. Collette is the Public Relations Director for the Apache Nation, and A.K. is the Chief of Detectives for the White Mountain Police Department. We came back to do some additional assessments on the multiple sightings being reported on the reservation by local citizens. It was a good feeling to be back with the new good friends we had made on our first visit. It is clear to us that there is something unusual going on in the heart of the reservation. We feel that the unusual amount of sightings and encounters there are a direct result of the recent changes in weather patterns combined with the recent fires that have devastated major portions of the timberlands in the high country surrounding the towns. The combination of these factors seems to have pushed our quarry, closer into the populated areas of the reservation. The White Mountain area is an extremely beautiful area that almost seems out of place for Arizona. It is heavily treed mountains with many meadows, streams, and secluded caves. Like most people, we were not aware of the geological, climatic, and environmental diversity that Arizona has to offer. We thought of Arizona as hot and dry and almost entirely desert. How wrong we were.

Dear Springfield;
Who's the skeptic NOW, my friend?!?!?!
Your friend;
LAMAR

Well, as far as that Remer, MN, photo goes .... me.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value=" <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/qGYxqtJ0qkQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/qGYxqtJ0qkQ</a>"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/qGYxqtJ0qkQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/qGYxqtJ0qkQ</a>" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

While I believe that Bigfoot is a reality, I would not believe a single word that came from the mouth of Tom Biscardi. He is the perpetrator behind many of the Bigfoot hoaxes.

Merry Christmas-Mike

Gollum wrote

While I believe that Bigfoot is a reality, I would not believe a single word that came from the mouth of Tom Biscardi. He is the perpetrator behind many of the Bigfoot hoaxes.

Merry Christmas-Mike

DITTO! 

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value=" <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/pl-7zC24hMA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/pl-7zC24hMA</a>"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/pl-7zC24hMA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/pl-7zC24hMA</a>" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Gollum wrote

While I believe that Bigfoot is a reality, I would not believe a single word that came from the mouth of Tom Biscardi. He is the perpetrator behind many of the Bigfoot hoaxes.

Merry Christmas-Mike

DITTO! 

Ditto me too.  Too bad self-serving attention getters seem to always sully an otherwise intriguing phenomena.  Applies to the treasure hunting realm too, eh?

Ellie,

"He was a sentinel whose job was to guard and protect a number of depositories that were located in the greater Florence depository area."

The first question that comes to mind is, why is Bill the only one you are making your document offer to?  I imagine there are any number of members here who would love to see this " historical documented scenario".  That would, of course, include me.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe,

Sorry about that. I was referring to my personal documentation and my experiences with Bob Brewer and others that had influenced my thoughts and beliefs in regards to the Spanish (Peralta) influences regarding the Stone Maps and the LDM. My focus is on Jacob Waltz, his involvement with the Florence Depository Area, and his primary responsibilities to the Secret Society which he was a part/member of. I must admit that much of my documentation is specific and to share it names several sentinels that some may be familiar with which are tied to locations where depositories have been hidden. So far I have been sharing what I can and will continue to do so. Bill has not been exposed to my belief system and I was going to suggest that he read Bob Brewer's books plus other reading material. You will see what he sees. I would never leave any of you my friends in the dust.
Have a great week,
EB

Hi EB,

It has been a while since you and Joe had this exchange, but I finally got a copy of Shadow of the Sentinel by Warren Getler and Bob Brewer.  What a great read!  Getler's account of Bob Brewer's experiences, analysis, and findings was quite a "page turner" for me on several levels.  First, I had not heard much about the Knights of the Golden Circle until the recent TV show about JJ, the search for his cache in Kansas and connections with the KGC.  Second, a theory that Jacob Waltz might have been a "Sentinel" for the KGC puts the LDM treasure legend in a whole new light for me.

When I saw a chapter just on the Lost Dutchman in the middle of the book, I began reading there, finished the book and am now close to completing all chapters.  I'll have more comments after finishing and thinking a bit about this theory. 

Maybe we should move this discussion to another thread.  More later.

Bill

Amen Brother!

For those that are skeptics about the Spanish treasure trails and Kenworthy’s Signs and Symbols book:

Now I don't give heck where he got the signs, they helped me find a Spanish Silver Mine in Kentucky! If you look at the picture you will see that there is a rock map, if you look at it real good you will see several figures right out of the book. Oh yea, I photographed these in 1983 ( a friend and I started looking but put it on hold for 25 years) which is why I didn't know what it was trying to tell me. This past year I got Kenworthy’s book on signs and symbols, and well…..the map then made sense. I found the mine and then went backwards and guess what I found? Several Spanish style markings, each one is reproduced on the large rock map…oh and the rock map is on the back of a turtle shaped rock! The person I believe was the engraver had his name carved near it (no I cannot prove it).  Does this go to the credibility of Kenworthy? I think so. I have not read anything of his other than the signs and symbols. I am glad I did and have written the exploits down and will soon try to post a summary of it all.

Thanks, Curtis, for the great post.  Your example is the first to my knowledge that provides a specific example to verify CK's explanations of map and trail signs and symbols he claims came from European royal archives.  Be sure to post more details when you have time and don't mind sharing a "how to" example or two.

Bob Brewer in Shadow of the Sentinel explained how he interpreted the signs he found which led him to other signs and eventually hidden valuables.  This sort of analysis is extremely interesting to me and is rarely shared by successful treasure hunters and I understand why.  Kenworthy in his book Treasure Secrets of the Lost Dutchman provides some explanations for the interpretations he makes, but there seems to be pieces of the reasoning left out... and I'm sure he did it on purpose to protect at least some of his methods.

It has been a little discouraging to me as well to see all the "off topic" posts.  Although some are interesting and others distracting, they should be located on other threads.

Bill