Bullet id help?

Just dug this. Its got a hole in the bottom like some sharps bullets typically have. There is also a slight ring around it and its in the shape of a tear drop sort of. Its to large to be one of those pistol tear drop bullets...

almost looks like a field tip from a modern arrow

almost looks like a field tip from a modern arrow

Its definitely a bullet. Just not sure what type or period...

Try posting it on this site
http://cwbullet.org/bullet-relic-forum/

Mike, the flared base is probably not part of the bullet's design, but is probably the result of it being shot from a short unrifled barrel. It retained it's general shape (though it's a little shorter and wider at the base) from being fired  into something soft enough to cushion the impact, maybe the ground.

Looks like a Starr Carbine

VaYank, they didn't have the small hole in them did they?  I still think for it to mushroom at the base like that it had to be fired from a short unrifled barrel. maybe a round fired from a Le mat?

It really don't look fired. And I am pretty sure its not carved on.

It really don't look fired. And I am pretty sure its not carved on.

Mike I'll see if I can find you some pictures of fired rounds with mushroomed bases.

I'm not sure if any of the starr's had holes or not. I know there are variants and different calibers. Does the hole look like it could have been carved into the bullet?  The bullet doesn't look fired or like the sides were carved on.

I'm not sure if any of the starr's had holes or not. I know there are variants and different calibers. Does the hole look like it could have been carved into the bullet?

It looks made that way.

It could be a variant. I've dug ringtail sharps and colts that had holes in the bases and I've also dug a few sharps that had a small plug cavity instead of the small cone. I'll look and see if I can find out anything more.

It could be a variant. I've dug ringtail sharps and colts that had holes in the bases and I've also dug a few sharps that had a small plug cavity instead of the small cone. I'll look and see if I can find out anything more.

Thanks for all the help. These type of things drive me nuts until I find an answer.

In Mason's  & McKee's bullet book number 202 on page 35 it has a.565 Starr Carbine with a hole in the base. Looks just like yours.  I learned something this evening

It really don't look fired. And I am pretty sure its not carved on.

Mike, I can only find pictures of flared bullets that hit people but I'll keep looking because this is interesting. The fact that it doesn't look fired though isn't such a big deal if it was fired from an unrifled short barrel (such as a le Mat for example which had a large caliber and unrifled barrel) . There'd be no rifling and no marks if it had a high trajectory and landed on the ground, or if it hit something soft. Remember, an unrifled short barrel has a very short range also.  Anyway, here's one link I found. I don't know if it will be helpful, but if you scroll down you'll see several bullets with the flared base (more dramatically flared, as they were shot from no barrel and derringer barrel, as well as a rifled bullet showing flaring which has maintained it's shape.) (don't forget to scroll)  http://books.google.com/books?id=VbrDbbHAflsC&pg=PA288&lpg=PA288&dq=bullet+with+flared+base&source=bl&ots=xkmA35h9Hg&sig=X3g5rEB5rrUMsGtCNPmg4kVz33g&hl=en&ei=zNgAS7WLMIejlAe2rrWQAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=bullet%20with%20flared%20base&f=false

"In Mason's  & McKee's bullet book number 202 on page 35 it has a.565 Starr Carbine with a hole in the base. Looks just like yours.  I learned something this evening"

Vayank, is it flared like this one???

The one in the book has a more distinct ring but I've dug them with the distinct ring and then ones that look more like it's flared. Never one with a hole though

The one in the book has a more distinct ring but I've dug them with the distinct ring and then ones that look more like it's flared. Never one with a hole though

VaYank, I think you're right. The caliber seems right, and now that I've seen one of these close, I can see how the flare comes pretty near. Really nice i.d.man. I was sure wishing it could have been shot from a La Mat, but a Starr is pretty cool also. Here's a link I found which convinced me that it is a Starr.  http://www.packhorsefordrelics.com/1_breech_loading_carbine.htm  (man, I could sure could up with a case for a Le Mat though , couldn't I? Should've been a defense lawyer I guess )

The one in the book has a more distinct ring but I've dug them with the distinct ring and then ones that look more like it's flared. Never one with a hole though

VaYank, I think you're right. The caliber seems right, and now that I've seen one of these close, I can see how the flare comes pretty near. Really nice i.d.man. I was sure wishing it could have been shot from a La Mat, but a Starr is pretty cool also. Here's a link I found which convinced me that it is a Starr.  http://www.packhorsefordrelics.com/1_breech_loading_carbine.htm  (man, I could sure could up with a case for a Le Mat though , couldn't I? Should've been a defense lawyer I guess )

thanks for posting that link. Yeah you had me wondering but I just couldn't believe that bullet was fired. I did learn something though because I never knew that any of the Starrs had a hole in the base. Hmm guess I don't know everything ha ha

  Gents,
            I'm enjoying your information on all the CW bullets....    I have cast my own for nearly 40 years and whenever someone has an example with a little hole in the base I reflect on all the ones I've made as my molds are coming up to temperature.  Once the lead is flowing in my pot...it takes a dozen or so poured to get the Mold blocks up to temp. The first ones are always shiny and wrinkled and some have a little hole just like the pics. Finally when up to temp...they're the right finish with no holes or voids.  The primitive early molds I have seen like used in the CW would have trouble maintaining temperature control and I wonder how many of those little holes are due to that issue?
Thanks and HH

TiredIron

You can get the mold block up to temp faster with a small propane torch

After looking at the pics closely and reading all the comments several things still bother me.  I don't see a lube groove or a crimping groove. A crimping groove is necessary on any repeating tube fed rifle because the recoil on firing will dislodge the bullet if it isn't crimped.  Early bullets were made of pure lead and if not lubed they would lead the bore so badly follow up shots would not be accurate. If the bottom mushroomed because it was fired, why no rifling marks?  If it was a fired bullet the base could not be larger than the bore.  The only reason a bullet was designed to expand at the base would be to better engage the rifling in the barrel or to load easy, expand to  fit the bore on a smoothe bore.  I don't see any sign of either.   Go figure.  Monty

Thanks Tired Iron. I never knew that. I have seen a few bullets that the hole looked like it was carved in. Maybe the reason was the mold temp.
Monty. I agree I always thought that was a strange design for a bullet but they had a lot of strange bullets back then.  I don't believe that bullet was fired.  Did you check the link that johnnyi posted? It has some good pics of the Starrs as well as other bullets. There were also Starr revolvers too.

   I agree with all of Monty's comments here....especially that it doesn't look like it's been down the bore of a firearm. I have no expaination as to why it looks deformed the way it does. I have often wondered, with all the strange and different firearms and bullets in this time period, how many times did a soldier find something or pick something up, and try and use it anyhow. Kind of like the artillery crews running out of spec balls and sometimes firing anything they could shove into the tube?  I think there is always going to be unexpainable oddities. Stimulates (frustrates) the mind.

TiredIron

"I have seen a few bullets that the hole looked like it was carved in. Maybe the reason was the mold temp."

Tis is possibly a dumb question regarding the hole in the base, but....:

Since this seems to be to a Starr carbine; and since bullets from the Starr had the  slightly flared ring at the base; and since the Starr was breech loading slightly larger at the breech getting smaller at the bore; is it possible that the hole was there to allow for compression rather than expansion?

I understand what you are saying about the compression and expansion. But that is the only Starr I've seen with a hole most had flat bases. It might be a manufacturers variation. I really don't know. But I really do not think the bullet was fired.

"I have seen a few bullets that the hole looked like it was carved in. Maybe the reason was the mold temp."


I posted a link showing the holes in the bases of the starr bullets. It's the last post with a link.

 Gents,
            I'm enjoying your information on all the CW bullets....    I have cast my own for nearly 40 years and whenever someone has an example with a little hole in the base I reflect on all the ones I've made as my molds are coming up to temperature.  Once the lead is flowing in my pot...it takes a dozen or so poured to get the Mold blocks up to temp. The first ones are always shiny and wrinkled and some have a little hole just like the pics. Finally when up to temp...they're the right finish with no holes or voids.  The primitive early molds I have seen like used in the CW would have trouble maintaining temperature control and I wonder how many of those little holes are due to that issue?
Thanks and HH

TiredIron

Right on TiredIron. For those that don't cast bullets. I cast 10 or 15 until they come out right and if I have to delay a pour, I keep the mould as close to the top of my production pot as possible to keep it to temperature. I also smoke the inside of the cherry with a candle. This coats the mould with LAMP BLACK and allows for easier removal from the mould (Sort of a releasing agent). Ideally, the bullets should drop out of the mould, what I mean is this, I hold the mould down on a soft cloth. I then open the mould and the bullet should roll out. If you have to tap the mould to get the bullet to release, you run the risk of deforming the bullet. To cast a good bullet, you need to have clean lead. I use a piece of raw beeswax (Garden pea size) to flux the lead and burn off the fumes from a distance. I then use and old spoon to remove the dross from the top of the molten lead. All of my Lyman and Lee moulds are made from very hard anodised aluminum, I would not want to use a propane torch to heat them up. Bullets with voids in them do not shoot straight as you know. HH

The casting of bullets should be done out of doors in a well ventilated area. Lead fumes are poisonous.

Dick, here's a link again. I'm trying to understand, are you guys saying that the .58 Linder, the .44 Colt, and the .54 Starr all consistantly have these holes because the mold wasn't up to temp? http://www.packhorsefordrelics.com/1_breech_loading_carbine.htm

I'm just about to guess it's a miscast bullet and a throw away. I haven't seen anything exactly the same in any of the links.  Monty

Dick, here's a link again. I'm trying to understand, are you guys saying that the .58 Linder, the .44 Colt, and the .54 Starr all consistantly have these holes because the mold wasn't up to temp? http://www.packhorsefordrelics.com/1_breech_loading_carbine.htm

  No sir, I am saying that I agree with TiredIron that this is a possibility that poorly cast bullets could have these kinds of defects. I am not saying that the bullets you reference do not indeed have these holes for some purpose. For example, I place a lube wad into the hollow skirt (Hollow base, if you will) of my .54 Cal. Sharps bullets. This lube wad lubricates the bore on subsequent shots. My bullets are also paper patched to help avoid lead fouling in the bore. I live in a limited world of black powder firearms and bullets so I have a knowledge of the bullets that I cast and shoot. I would not be familiar with the bullets that you reference. I can only say that if the holes are consistant in size and shape and that they were cast within the bullets so that the bullet is balanced, then they were intended to be there.

The hole in this bullet appears to have been a tiny plug style. I know it was not a plug but its like that just small. Its not in the shape of a bowl or cone.

here is a couple of similar starr bullets
i have heated  my very hard anodised aluminum fishing weight moldes up and it worked great
http://www.tennesseelead.com/

here is a couple of similar starr bullets
i have heated  my very hard anodised aluminum fishing weight moldes up and it worked great
http://www.tennesseelead.com/

Close but I dont quite think this is it. The hole in the bottom of the second bullet is not how this one looks.