Truth about LDM?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Dutchman%27s_Gold_Mine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lost_Dutchman%27s_Gold_Mine

My personnel thoughts is the Wickenburg Vulture Mine was the real source of Waltz gold

NEWN,

Don't know how much research you have done into the LDM, but people who knew the Vulture ore, and saw the ore from under Waltz's death bed, said it was not even close to being the same.

That's only one small piece of the evidence showing that theory to be incorrect.

Joe Ribaudo

JAcob Waltz himself
 http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Waltz&GSfn=JAcob&GSbyrel=in&GSdyrel=in&GScntry=4&GSob=n&GRid=6172003&

NEWN,

"JAcob Waltz himself"...........What?

Joe Ribaudo

Welcome to Treasurenet NEWN,
I had suspicions just like you - that Waltz had really just stolen the ore, but as our mutual friend Cactusjumper pointed out, the ores do not match.  Gold ores are a bit like fingerprints, in that they are unique, the ore from any mine will not match the ore from any other mine.  An expert who examined ore from Waltz said it did not match any known source - it is from an unknown source. This fact really is the only way that anyone can ever prove that they found the Lost Dutchman mine, by having a piece of ore examined by a geologist who could state with authority whether it is a match or not.

Several other mines have also been proposed as the true source of Waltz's ore, including the Mammoth, the Bulldog etc but again the ores do not match.  Is it so hard to believe that a gold mine, with an entrance no larger than a barrel and deliberately covered up, could remain undiscovered?  I am convinced this is the case.

Highgraders (men who steal rich ore from a mine) were customarily hung at the Vulture, supposedly at least 18 men were hanged there. Waltz himself never worked at the Vulture, so would not likely have had the opportunity to highgrade ore.

Oroblanco

Oro said:

Waltz himself never worked at the Vulture

I've always found it interesting that a number of the older authors of information concerning Waltz and the Lost Mine say he worked at the Vulture as a "matter of fact," and yet I've never seen any documented proof to the contrary.  I'm convinced as well that even if he did work there and the records of that employment are lost, the ore ascribed to him is NOT from the Vulture.

Paul,

Like many of the ores that reach the surface in Arizona, the Vulture's was very rich.  If Waltz had been "highgrading" it would have been early on, while there were numerous miners working the surface.  All of this is pointed out in Dr. Glover's book, including the fact that Henry Wickenburg leased out claims because he didn't want to work the Vulture himself.  With that many miners, it would have been very difficult to highgrade anyone's claim.......especially in the quantities that Waltz had.

Take care,

Joe

What about "Weiser"  working at the Vulture    Could be his pal was highgrading at the Vulture then he and waltz was dipping into the stash as needed.

Tim,

Beyond who worked there, Dutchman ore does not match up with known Vulture ore, even the surface samples that are still available.

Waltz's ore did not come from the Vulture Mine.

Take care,

Joe

Who was this Dutchman and what is the story that goes with him?  To find that out, we have to go back a few centuries before him to the 1500s when the Spaniards were conquering the new world.  In one particular location, Spanish Jesuit Priests were said to be finding their fortunes in Apache territory, which is largely the area of present day New Mexico and Arizona.  In the Superstition Mountains, these priests had laid a claim to more riches, primarily gold, than anyone could have ever imagined.  They sent some of their spoils back to the King of Spain.  Shortly thereafter, the king ordered the Jesuits to return immediately because of a falling out with the leaders of Mexico.
   The trouble with the immediate departure of these Jesuit priests was that they had too much treasure in the mountains to load on their ships.  So through intimidation, the Apache Indians were placed as guardians to the mines.  True to their word, the Apaches remained vigilant as the guardians of the Spaniards’ fortunes, and this tradition was handed down from generation to generation. Neither the priests nor any other "representative of Spain" ever returned to collect their claim for reasons unknown

Listening.

Don Jose de La Mancha

"In The 1800s", a German Immigrant by the name of Jacob Waltz was mining in these very same mountains.  He was, as the inarticulate American slang coined him, The Dutchman (rather than Deutschman). Waltz discovered what was the claim of the Spanish Jesuit Priests who had never returned. Before Waltz ever made it down the mountain, Apache Indians who were acting as “the guardians of the mountains” attacked him.
        The dying Waltz spent his last moments with a doctor and before he died, he told the doctor of gold and the approximation of its location. Its been lying there ever since. Do the Apache still know of its location? Yes But it’s taboo for them to speak of it.

Santa Fe NM - would you care to "flesh out" your story?  There are several points I must respectfully disagree on, but if you could provide some documentation to back up your version, I would appreciate it.  Thank you in advance, 
Oroblanco

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ORO PLEASE WATCH NIMOY PART 1 2 & 3

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NOW WATCH THIS ORO PLEASE THANKYOU IN ADVANCE!

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ORO YOU SAID "There are several points I must respectfully disagree on" ABSOLUTELY! I RESPECT ALL DISAGREEMENTS, AND I AGREE TO DISAGREE THANKYOU ORO    THE TRUE BEAUTY HERE IS WE CAN ALL DISAGREE AND WE CAN ALL AGREE TO DISAGREE

[Thank you Santa Fe NM]

Thank you Santa Fe NM - I used to love Nimoy's series "In Search Of" and have that very episode on VHS tape.  I won't say what I think of Milton Rose, <who makes an appearance in this episode> for he was a treasure hunter who did his share of hunting treasures and wrote about it.  I can't get the other link to work, keeps causing some error on my PC so I have to re-boot - probably I need to get a new computer as this one has been giving me fits recently.

What you said is true amigo - we can agree to disagree, and trying to get a bunch of treasure hunters to agree on ANYTHING is quite a monumental task in itself!  I have some "wild" ideas and theories of my own too, so don't get the impression that I want to start throwing stones.   

My big problem with the Lost Dutchman is that danged gold ore - there have been at least 80 different people who have claimed to have found it, but only one had ore which (according to Tom Kollenborn, and I am aware folks have a problem with this too) seemed to match the ore found under the deathbed of Jacob Waltz. The great stories which have been woven into the Dutchman legend are super, makes for high drama and this is why Hollywood went to Barry Storm to make a movie on it <Lust For Gold starring Glenn Ford as the "Dutchman"> but there seems to be little to prove much of the stories ever really happened.  The "other" version of Waltz is little publicized and much less dramatic, but I am convinced it is the true version.  For the record, I don't make any profits for keeping the Lost Dutchman LOST either, and would love to see someone find it.  Maybe I should start saying "yes I agree you have found the Lost Dutchman" for every one who claims to have found it, since I sure can't prove that ANY of them DIDN'T. 

Good luck and good hunting Santa Fe NM and everyone, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. 
Oroblanco
 

Gosh I actually miss that desert.  Must have some kind of mental affliction!   

[idea]

Oro, thanks for your rational approach to this legend ("an unverified story handed down from earlier times, especially one popularly believed to be historical").  It's the idea of the LDM that seems to have a life of its own and has spawned quite a nice cottage industry around it.  The truth may never be known, but if it is, it will most likely be something different than the legend.

I tried to leave the southwest myself years ago, but once the hook is set, it just won't let go.

HI CJ: Quit lurking in the background and post something

Don Jose de la Mancha

Don Jose,

I was waiting for you to post something first.

Take care,

Joe

Don Jose & Cactusjumper, both of you have been rather quiet - hope all is well in both cases.  What do you have to say on this?  Thank you in advance, 
Oroblanco

Roy,

If you are asking me what I think of SFN's comments, I am out of that loop.  I put him on "Ignore" awhile back.  When someone comes on here with no othere purpose than to disrupt the conversations, I don't feel the need to read their nonsense.  Got my fill of that with Bowman.

If you can find some value in his.....stuff, you're a better man than I.  Might be wrong, but this guy smells like the "Lone Wolf".  His ego will get in the way of any normal conversation, he will get mad, and be gone.

Take care,

Joe

Cactusjumper wrote

If you can find some value in his.....stuff

Well, I am sure that many folks have a lot of trouble trying to find some kind of value in MY stuff too, so I can't start flinging stones on that account!    I think his claims are interesting at minimum, though a sample of that durned ore would have gone much farther along the way to convince me - I can't prove he has not found the LDM any more than I could prove BB was not a shaman.  Trying to disprove anything is generally more difficult than proving positive, so I am left with having to say respectfully "un-convinced".  I was curious what you thought of Santa Fe NM's statements and evidence but as you have him on ignore (with reasons explained) it is academic. 
Oroblanco

 

Roy,

I look forward to reading your posts, and find a great deal of value in the reading.  We all kid around and say some foolish things, but that's only amusing for a short time.  Some of these guys make a career of it.

Like I said, you're just a better man than I am. 

Take care,

Joe

[YOU]

Gosh Joe thanks for the very kind words, but I really feel that I am getting the better part of the deal in our discussions from the information YOU post.  Not to dismiss the posts of our other friends here either, for many of our friends have been virtual "founts" of information.  I have learned a great deal from you Joe, and from our friends as well.  Just in the example of the Peralta stones, I learned more in a few weeks discussion (and the research I found myself doing) than I had known about them in the 20 years previous.

I don't like being the "wet blanket" when we get talking about the Lost Dutchman, and there is some value in the legends themselves even if utterly based on fantasy - for entertainment if nothing else.

I am (personally) convinced the Lost Dutchman mine is very real, but that the true story of its discovery and subsequent history are far less filled with drama or characters; what we are left with even so is still quite a story. (personal opinion) The vanishing of Adolph Ruth, the mystery of Walt Gassler and his "sons" not to mention the personal tragedies of Julia and the Petrasches or the real gunfight of Piper etc let alone the life of Waltz makes for quite a study.  Even without any Peraltas, Jesuits or Templars.

That ore just keeps bothering me.  I have heard it said that Waltz's ore must have been a hand picked sample, maybe even "highgraded" by removing the non-gold bearing quartz.   Porterie's assay showed Waltz's ore to be worth $110,000 per ton at the old $20.67/oz price, so it seems natural that folks would have doubts about it, but in fact this is not THAT remarkable.  Waltz or someone later may have claimed the mine was the "richest gold mine on Earth" but by comparison with some other mines it is not SO rich.  Ore from the Lost Cement mine (CA) was said to be one-fourth to two thirds gold, even at one fourth it is richer than Waltz's ore; here in the black hills several mines had ore which would match Waltz's ore, one in fact was 80% gold and proved not to be just a tiny pocket, the finder (another Dutchman as luck would have it) sold several RR car loads of it which made him quite wealthy.  There are quite a few mines around the world which produced ores of incredible richness.  If only someone would come up with a piece of ore that matches Waltz's ore, I could readily accept their claim to have found the Lost Dutchman mine.  Unfortunately this may well NEVER happen. 

That same ore keeps giving me the idea to go back to those Superstition mountains one more time, there are still places we have never looked and with luck........but back in reality I think I would be just as happy if someone else would find it and settle it forever.  Then perhaps that pretty ore would quit bothering me!

Roy ~ Oroblanco
 

Everyone,

I will repeat Joe's statement here that it is a FACT tested via Electron Dispersal Attachment to a Scanning Electron Microscope. The ore from under Waltz' Bed IS NOT remotely similar to known ore samples from the Vulture Mine. I wish people would do a little more research before rehashing this dead horse!

SFN,

I know a good deal more than most about Jesuits in the New World during Spanish Colonial Times (1608-1767). The Jesuits OFFICIALLY had no claims on ANY metal or mineral mines in the New World. They were forbidden to mine. There is also no known evidence of them doing anything like that in the areas you speak of. Unless you have found some heretofore unknown documentary evidence to the contrary, I will have to call BS.

As far as Leonard Nimoy, there have been MANY additions to our knowledge of the LDM since the 1970s. You need to research some more modern known facts regarding Jacob Waltz, his life, his words, and the facts surrounding him.

Best-Mike

EVERYONE THIS SUMS IT ALL UP:  (((('n' it's all right now, learned my lesson well
You see, ya can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself))))                              HAPPY THANKS GIVING EVERYONE            

[ore]

... That ore just keeps bothering me.  I have heard it said that Waltz's ore must have been a hand picked sample, maybe even "highgraded" by removing the non-gold bearing quartz.   Porterie's assay showed Waltz's ore to be worth $110,000 per ton at the old $20.67/oz price, so it seems natural that folks would have doubts about it, but in fact this is not THAT remarkable.  ...

That's right, Oro.  The alleged LDM ore is primo to be sure, but if you've ever been around the mining business, you've seen lots of samples just as rich or richer.  In the 19th century, even more so, since the easy-to-mine surface deposits were often quartz veins with gold showing.  All the ore from small lode deposits is hand-cobbled due to the obvious transportation issues (especially during the 19th century when roads and vehicles were non-existant).  Therefore, the richness of the assay reports is heavily skewed and may or may not relate directly to the 'richness' of the lode itself for many reasons that should be self-evident.  A jackass prospector may have worked six months and moved two hundred tons of rock to accumulate a hundred pounds of picture rock with no end of the ore in sight when he quit.  Or, he may have worked a week and cobbled the same quantity and quality of ore from two tons of material before it pinched out entirely.  Which mine is 'richest' based on the ore samples?  Same applies to placer mining, which usually yields an essentially pure gold stash.  Did the panner get his ten pounds of placer by working two years on a decent deposit, or did he get it in a weekend?  

As far as the scientific comparison of Waltz's ore not matching any other known ore samples - all this tells us is that the source of Waltz's ore has not been determined.  All assumptions as to its location are based on hearsay and the trail is mighty cold and even more unverifiable.  Nice ore, though.    

OK,

There has been lot's of talk about the Dutchman's ore sample assay.  Has that assay ever been published or a copy made available for anyone to see?

I haven't read all the books about the LDM but do not recall seeing the assay and would very much like to view a copy.

Thanks in advance for any references.

Bill

[truth about the LDM]

Thank you Springfield for your thoughtful response.  As the subject of this thread is the "truth about the LDM" I wish to address what this truth could be.


There are several possibilities for the true origins of that beautiful gold ore Waltz had.  Perhaps he had his own mine, perhaps he was simply stealing from someone else's.  In either case the mine remains un-located at least as far as I can tell, basing this on the single requirement of a matching ore sample.

The numerous "clues" to find the Lost Dutchman may or may not be of any assistance in identifying the actual mine.  What appears certain is that "clues" from SEVERAL different gold deposits have become fuddled together, partly by treasure writers who love to lump such things together - occasionally to a long stretch of the imagination.  The black gold quartz of Apache Jack for instance, with gold spots "like stars" is pretty obviously NOT one and the same with Waltz's ore, and I will go out on a limb to say it is most likely an epithermal vein or ledge, which probably did not run to any appreciable depth. Such a deposit could very easily be mined out and depleted, leaving nothing of great value for a treasure hunter to find.  Any "clues" which are connected with Apache Jack's gold then we ought to disregard as un-related to the Lost Dutchman, <personal opinion of course>.

The pink (rose) quartz of Wagoner's ledge is also likely NOT the same vein as Waltz's simply because it is rose quartz while Waltz's ore is white.  There are variations in color within any gold bearing quartz, but not generally running white AND rose in the same vein, the colors coming from the chemical compositions of the quartz.  Wagoner's story is little documented, being largely from recollections of witnesses so the skeptics dismiss it anyway, but it is possible that Wagoner's ledge is one and the same with the clues which mention rose quartz.  Wagoner supposedly planted trees to help locate his mine, so along with the other "clues" associated with it, <personal opinion> these can be disregarded.

Then there is the story of the Mexican woman who remembered her husband mining in the Superstitions, and "winnowing" the gold with a blanket in the wind, the gold being in grains the size of wheat - this is a good description of a dry placer mine and old dry placer mining methods, which is likely not related to the Lost Dutchman, though it is possible his mine had a rich dry placer associated and this may be the way he discovered it. (See "Pioneer Interviews" with old-timers of Florence Arizona, Phoenix library if memory serves).  It seems likely that if this Mexican had winnowed out placer gold close to a vein of gold, he would have located the vein, so the clues associated with this story can probably be disregarded <personal opinion again>.

I will add a word here on Adolph Ruth, for his maps and clues associated with Ruth are so often tied with the Lost Dutchman legend.  Ruth himself did not claim that his maps led to the Lost Dutchman mine at all - they were gifts from grateful Mexicans; Ruth, on talking to the various "prospectors" and drifters hanging around at the Barkley ranch, it was only AFTER these somewhat questionable characters TOLD Ruth that "it must be the Lost Dutchman" that Ruth simply went along with their statements.  There is no other reason to make this connection. As sad and dramatic as Ruth's story is, I do not see any real reason to try to connect this with Jacob Waltz and his mine. 

We could go on here with various other stories from the Superstitions, but basically in my opinion the various "clues" have very little value for assistance in finding Jacob Waltz's mine, though they may be useful AFTER finding the mine for comparisons.  Even without a single clue however it should be possible to find his mine, for someone (I believe Waltz) found it in the first place and gold deposits are found mostly by basic prospecting techniques, so it should work even in this case of long standing.  So geologically speaking, where would be the best place to start?

The Superstition mountains are not a promising location to prospect for gold. They are largely volcanic in origins, with calderas etc the type of rock not known to be gold bearing.  Rich gold deposits DO occur in close association with volcanic calderas, including the type which appears to be what Waltz's is - the deeply-formed type known as "hypothermal" and this type while rare in Arizona, rarely if ever occurs in small pockets, generally forming deep veins or "chimney" type deposits of great richness.  Side note here, I do not know of a single incidence of a hypothermal gold deposit being shallow or small pocket, there is one in California which comes to mind, in which the vein seemed to be a "lense" on the side of a canyon, but the rest of the vein was some years later discovered on the other side of the same canyon after a landslide un-covered it. Now I could well be mistaken on the type of Waltz's ore being hypothermal, and others are free and welcome to disagree.  However the fact that quite rich gold, silver and copper deposits have been discovered north and east of the Superstitions ought to encourage a treasure hunter or prospector. <Both of these regions were considered a part of the same mountain range in the early days, known as the Salt River mountains or "Montana Espuma" etc.  This is important for a Dutch-hunter to keep in mind.>

We know that Waltz pointed to the Superstition mountains when telling his friends where the mine was, though this could cover a larger area than we refer to (today) as the Superstitions. To the east and north of the wilderness area in fact, some of the richest mines ever discovered in Arizona are located.  The one "clue" which seems the worst (or best) for misleading many treasure hunters was Waltz's statement about a "pointed peak".  Most assume this to be Weaver's Needle, which lies in a most un-promising area of the Superstitions and inside the wilderness area, but it is hardly the only "pointed peak" in the region - there are at least two others which are in considerably more promising areas.  Four Peaks is another landmark often cited, and again this un-mistakable mountain is visible over a vast area including several other "pointed peaks".

As the areas around the Silver King (east of the wilderness) and Goldfield (north of the wilderness) have been heavily prospected, it seems unlikely that Waltz's mine is close to either site - however even in areas which have been gone over pretty thoroughly by experienced prospectors, it is possible for deposits to remain undetected.

On the other hand, Waltz could have had a mine up in the Bradshaws or even in California, though we would then wonder why he would tell his close friends to look in the Superstitions, or for that matter why he didn't simply remain in either place so as to be close enough to his mine to enable him to make visits if he should need more money.  If Waltz was simply stealing the ore from someone else's mine (as Phipps was doing) this mine is still the object of our search.

AlaskaBill wrote

here has been lot's of talk about the Dutchman's ore sample assay.  Has that assay ever been published or a copy made available for anyone to see?

If you are referring to the assay done by Joe Porterie for Dick Holmes, no I don't think this has been made public; another assay done by Dr Glover has been published in his book, perhaps one of our members here would scan and post the results online if it would not be copyright infringement?

My apologies for the very long post, this aspect of the ore and where it originated being a "pet"subject for myself I get carried away on it very easily.  Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. 
Oroblanco

Oro said:

If you are referring to the assay done by Joe Porterie for Dick Holmes, no I don't think this has been made public; another assay done by Dr Glover has been published in his book, perhaps one of our members here would scan and post the results online if it would not be copyright infringement?

The red highlighted portion is actually not quite accurate Oro.  While there is a chapter in Dr. Glover's book focusing on a non-destructive analytical test of various sources of ore including at least some samples of what is believe to be Waltz's ore, the results of that analysis are not included.  There are conclusions drawn and comparisons made, but an actual analytical data sheet with elements and %'s are not provided.

Some things remain secrets

[Muchas gracias amigo Cubfan for the correction]

Muchas gracias amigo Cubfan for the correction - I do not own Dr Glover's books (they are on my short list of course, to add as funds are available) and was posting based on what someone told me is in his book.  I do not know what types of tests Dr Glover had done, but if it was a spectrographic analysis  type of test, these are fairly accurate and are often referred to as "assays" even though not the same as an actual fire assay.

Now I think of it, some years ago I was told that a copy of Porterie's assay is floating around somewhere, in the possession of a long-time Dutch hunter who might be willing to show it.  As I do not know the name of the person, whom also owns at least one piece of the "jewelry" ore from Waltz, I can't help to locate the copy. 
Oroblanco
 

Cubfan,

I do have both of Tom's Books on the LDM. As I stated previously for Beth, testing was done via a Scanning Electron Microscope with attached Electron Dispersal Reading Attachment. Basically this bombards the sample and the electrons that are released from the ore are sampled and read, with levels of electrons shown as spikes on a graph (the bigger the spike the more electrons present).

The graph below was from Tom's first LDM Book. It was the tested ore sample from the Black Queen Mine (one of the storied possibilities of the sources of LDM Ore). For whatever reason, he decided not to publish the sample from the known Waltz Ore, but the fact that he published this result, means that he has the same graph for the Waltz Ore Test.

He used to hang around one of the LDM Forums, but they don't have a Forum on that site any more:

http://www.lostdutchmanmines.com/index.html

I will email him and ask if he minds releasing the Waltz Ore Test Results.

Best-Mike

Questions, to owners of the ,{ ring and lighter},decorated with the so called Waltz ore.
1- Do the ores on both jewlery pieces match each other ?
2-What proof can you provide that the ore on these items are the so called Waltz"s Unique Ore ?
If provinonce cannot be provided, then can these items not also be lumped in the same catagory as lets say the Peralta Stones and Stone Crosses"s.
3-Is the ore on these items match any other existing ore that is curreently known ?
Thanks in advance.

I'm definitely not the owner of any of the items mentioned, but comparing them to the Peralta Stones is absurd.

The matchbox is of a gold ore that matches NOTHING else found, except for what Walt Gassler had, and a few pieces of jewelry (I think cufflinks), and one or two other pieces.

The ring (the picture shown on this forum) is of an unknown mystery source, known to a few members.

I would think the differences between LDM gold and the Peralta Stones would be obvious.  Most people know that an expert can tell you exactly where a piece of gold comes from - gold from North California does not look like gold from Southern California, which does not look like Alaska gold, which does not look like Georgia gold, which doesn't look like any other gold.  The identification of gold ore has many people who are able to tell you what ore came from what mine in what state.

The Peralta Stones?  Nothing - nothing at all, can be ascertained.

So the differences can be enlightening indeed - identifying ore is an exact science - geology.  The Peralta Stones and other stones, are nothing more than guessing and beliefs at this point in time.  We cannot even get an exact age.  We know, for absolutely sure that the stones are old - all stones are old - the carving on them is a whole 'nother thing.

B

Good morning Beth,

Dr. Elizabeth Miksa, of Desert Archaeology Inc., believed the stones came from two locations, Coconino and the Mogollon Rim.

The carvings, as you say, is "nother thing".

Take care,

Joe

I'm definitely not the owner of any of the items mentioned, but comparing them to the Peralta Stones is absurd.

The matchbox is of a gold ore that matches NOTHING else found, except for what Walt Gassler had, and a few pieces of jewelry (I think cufflinks), and one or two other pieces.

The ring (the picture shown on this forum) is of an unknown mystery source, known to a few members.

I would think the differences between LDM gold and the Peralta Stones would be obvious.  Most people know that an expert can tell you exactly where a piece of gold comes from - gold from North California does not look like gold from Southern California, which does not look like Alaska gold, which does not look like Georgia gold, which doesn't look like any other gold.  The identification of gold ore has many people who are able to tell you what ore came from what mine in what state.

The Peralta Stones?  Nothing - nothing at all, can be ascertained.

So the differences can be enlightening indeed - identifying ore is an exact science - geology.  The Peralta Stones and other stones, are nothing more than guessing and beliefs at this point in time.  We cannot even get an exact age.  We know, for absolutely sure that the stones are old - all stones are old - the carving on them is a whole 'nother thing.

B

Hi Mrs. Oro - although I would like to agree with you, keep in mind the only "identification" of any kind done on what Walt Gassler had in his backpack was a fairly quick visual glance.  Be careful not to confuse that with definite proof.

Cubfan,

I do have both of Tom's Books on the LDM. As I stated previously for Beth, testing was done via a Scanning Electron Microscope with attached Electron Dispersal Reading Attachment. Basically this bombards the sample and the electrons that are released from the ore are sampled and read, with levels of electrons shown as spikes on a graph (the bigger the spike the more electrons present).

The graph below was from Tom's first LDM Book. It was the tested ore sample from the Black Queen Mine (one of the storied possibilities of the sources of LDM Ore). For whatever reason, he decided not to publish the sample from the known Waltz Ore, but the fact that he published this result, means that he has the same graph for the Waltz Ore Test.

He used to hang around one of the LDM Forums, but they don't have a Forum on that site any more:

http://www.lostdutchmanmines.com/index.html

I will email him and ask if he minds releasing the Waltz Ore Test Results.

Best-Mike

Hi Mike,

Yup, I have no doubt that Dr. Glover has the spectrograms and analytical data to back up the conclusions, I just wish it would be accessible is all.  I work as a chemist and have some coworkers who use SEM-EDX and TEM as well as other optical imaging, so while I'm far from an expert, I've got a pretty decent idea on what the analyses can and can't tell a person.  Honestly I believe the evidence is there, but as I said, I'd really like to know more about the analysis itself and see the actual data to form my own conclusions - call me an "anal scientist"

As luck would have it, I recently acquired a piece of Black Queen ore myself and had one of my co-workers analyze it via SEM-EDX.  The fingerprint was pretty darn close except that no silver was present in my sample.  Granted they only scanned one spot and did it fairly quickly - that's why I'd like to know more about how the data was generated - I'm going to have them run it several more times on different portions of the ore and scan for a longer period of time to collect more data and see if silver shows up.

I saw Dr. Glover in October, but he could only stay at the Rendezvous for a short period of time and I hadn't gotten that "into" the ore analysis at that time.  I may send him an e-mail as well

Mrs Oro, I was only putting the ring and matchbox in the same cateagory as the Peralta stones and stone Crossse"s as not being authenicated. I agree that a carveing on a old rock does not make the carveing old. I also agree that all ore has its own fingerprints. I have seen ore that looks vey similiar in nature to the ore shown on the jewlery pieces. Basicially I am just questioning the Provinonce of the matchbox and ring inlaid ore as being  original Waltz ore. There has to be a authenicated document trail for this to be Waltz"s ore. 

To All...

I am encouraged by these last several posts about the Dutchman's gold assay.  If those of you who know and have a closer contact with Dr. Glover can convince him to post the assay report, we finally might get closer to an answer to where the Dutchman's gold might have come from. 

I am purely an amateur prospector and do not know enough about what assays can and cannot tell me.  I would assume that samples of ore from different locations in the same mine might not have exactly the same assay results. But I suppose that general characteristics do exist that identify these different ore samples as products of the same ore body in the mine.  Am I correct?

Visually, looking at the images of the matchbox, etc supposedly made from the Dutchman's ore, the sample looks very much like the jewelry gold coming out of the 16 to 1 mine in CA.  I bought a piece mounted in a necklace for my wife a few years ago.  However, the Dutchman's ore looks like it is more of an off white or rose quartz rather than the almost pure white quartz from the 16 to 1.

Bill

I will say one thing about that test.

I doubt it will be made available. I assume that is why the results he published were those of the Black Queen Mine rather than the result we all want to see. I say this because if YOU owned those results, AND HAD AN ACTIVE INTEREST IN FINDING THE LDM, would you openly publish something that could possibly allow a person to sample rocks (not necessarily from inside the mine) that could be tested and show a mineral content almost identical to the Matchbox or Camp Ore Samples? If you had those rocks, you would undoubtedly be right near the LDM. A person could find the Lost Dutchman Mine without actually setting foot inside it!

Best-Mike

I will say one thing about that test.

I doubt it will be made available. I assume that is why the results he published were those of the Black Queen Mine rather than the result we all want to see. I say this because if YOU owned those results, AND HAD AN ACTIVE INTEREST IN FINDING THE LDM, would you openly publish something that could possibly allow a person to sample rocks (not necessarily from inside the mine) that could be tested and show a mineral content almost identical to the Matchbox or Camp Ore Samples? If you had those rocks, you would undoubtedly be right near the LDM. A person could find the Lost Dutchman Mine without actually setting foot inside it!

Best-Mike

Yup - that's my thought too Mike

[all]

Mike,

Anyone who has done the amount of research that Dr. Glover has, probably harbors dreams of finding the LDM.  IMHO, they are all "Dutch Hunters".  I believe most of those people, including Dr. Glover, have their dreams on.......hold.  All of them are aware of the mine that was worked in the late 90's, and how closely it matches the LDM.

The ore that was taken out of that pit mine will probably never be tested against the "known" LDM ore.  If it is, I would guess that has already happened.  Bob Corbin told us, at the Rendezvous, that the statute of limitations for illegal mining in the Superstitions is seven years.  If that's the case, it's run out on the pit mine being called the "Silver Chief".

I asked one of the people who I suspectd of working that mine, if it was the LDM.  He replied that "everyone knows that the Silver Chief is a Silver Mine."  At this point in time, he has changed his tune.  It seems a very good bet, that the pit mine is not the Silver Chief.

My guess is, that the people who did that mining have other interests that might be put at risk if they admitted they were the ones who did that illegal work.

I have posted pictures of ore, given to me by the person who took the photos, and he said he was positive they came out of that mine.  In my personal opinion.......he would know.

I believe it's only a matter of time before the entire story is told.

Take care,

Joe

Paul and Mike,

There is not one speck of "LDM" ore, that can positively be attributed to the LDM or Jacob Waltz.  Until that mine is found, ore removed and tested against what is purported to have come from Jacob's mine, no positive match can ever be made.  I don't believe the testing that  Dr. Glover had done will ever help anyone find the LDM, but it could help to confirm they have actually found it.

Take care,

Joe

Paul and Mike,

There is not one speck of "LDM" ore, that can positively be attributed to the LDM or Jacob Waltz.  Until that mine is found, ore removed and tested against what is purported to have come from Jacob's mine, no positive match can ever be made.  I don't believe the testing that  Dr. Glover had done will ever help anyone find the LDM, but it could help to confirm they have actually found it.

Take care,

Joe

I don't follow you Joe.  If there isn't a speck of ore that can positively be attributed to the LDM or Waltz, what's the point of comparing any tests and making any conclusions about "Dutchman Ore?"

If it's true that each ore has it's own "fingerprint," so to speak, then certainly an analysis such as what Dr. Glover had done could confirm a "match/no match" status.  It would also stand to reason that there is the potential for someone to analyze ore samples of likely locations and "narrow down" their search to those sites where the same elements in the same ratio's are located - maybe not specifically finding the LDM, but at least narrowing the search.

You may be correct about the "rest of the story"coming out someday, but I don't see it as cut and dried as you do at this time.

Paul,

Few people agree with all of my conclusions......about anything.  That's what makes them uniquely mine.

The point in doing the testing seems fairly simple to me.  Like many Dutch Hunters, Dr. Glover is methodically removing the sources that are not the LDM, as best he can.  The Vulture matching LDM ore is a rumor that has been around for many decades.  On page 282, I believe Thomas has put that rumor to rest.

I think my statement is correct........for now.

Take care,

Joe
 

Ok then , I believe a Assy Report was done a long time ago on the Dutchmans ore, and it most likely did not turn out so unique. So why publish it and break the myth and mystery.  So without a Assy Report, any ore from the Supers. could be classified as Dutchman ore. No proof any ore will gladly say I am from the LDM. case ......

I remember the court battle back in, what 1979 or 1980?  There was a claim that they were sure was the LDM - Chuck Crawford, I believe.

He presented an assay report.  I think it said 3 oz to the ton, or something to that effect. The claim was the Cheryl Anne.

B

[Basicially I am just questioning the Provinonce of the matchbox and ring inlaid ore as being original Waltz ore]

Ghostdog wrote

Basicially I am just questioning the Provinonce of the matchbox and ring inlaid ore as being  original Waltz ore. There has to be a authenicated document trail for this to be Waltz"s ore.

The "provenance" of Waltz's ore can not be documented amigo - read up and you will see.  Under the deathbed of Waltz was found a candlebox of that ore.  It ended up in possession of Dick Holmes, whom sold it off a little at a time to finance his search for the mine.  We have only the word of Holmes, and of Julia Thomas and Reiney Petrasch who also laid claim to the gold.   Holmes had one assay done (required by the gold buyer) which was done by Joe Porterie.  You may be able to track a copy of this assay down, it supposedly came out $110,000 per ton at the old $20.67 per ounce. 

You are grouping the matchbox and ring together amigo Ghostdog, which we ought not logically do - the matchbox can be traced at least verbally to Waltz, while the ring cannot. The ring is made of ore which someone believes is the Lost Dutchman mine, we have no proof of this idea at all.  The ore in the ring has some visual differences to the matchbox ore, which a geologist could make some statements on - having never held either example in hand with a magnifying glass I hesitate to make conclusions but suspect they are not from the same mine.  If I were forced to make a guess, I would say that ring ore came from a quite different type of gold vein, an epithermal deposit.  That is making a wild guess based on photos with my poor eyesight, they very well  MAY be from the same mine.  There are a FEW  other pieces of ore which are supposed to be from Waltz's mine.

The identification of the ore said to be taken from Walt Gassler's pack was done by Tom Kollenborn.  Mr Kollenborn holds a masters degree, and is one of the most knowledgeable and experienced Dutch-hunters living, having written and published articles on the geology of the Superstition mountains.  I personally  trust Kollenborn's assessment of that alleged Gassler sample, even if done only by a visual inspection in a brief moment.  I am sure this basis is not enough for many people, it is enough for myself personally. 

I make no claim to being a geologist, but have a fair amount of experience prospecting along with studying geology as best I can without college.  Geology is an exact science, making conclusions about stone inscriptions age and origins <epigraphy> is not.  That we cannot produce a trail of documentation for the Waltz gold specimens is granted, but it is gold ore which does not match any KNOWN source, so the ore vein/mine remains LOST.  Comparing this fact to the provenance of the Peralta Stones, the stones can be traced to Tumlinson, his story being that he found them alongside the highway.  As Cactusjumper posted, the stone itself comes from a considerable distance away, sources NOT within the Superstitions, the experts whom have examined them have stated opinions they are of modern origins.  How can we lump these mysterious curiosities in with a genuine article, rich gold ore?  I fail to see the logic there amigo, so must respectfully disagree with your conclusions.

Ghostdog also wrote

So without a Assy Report, any ore from the Supers. could be classified as Dutchman ore. No proof any ore will gladly say I am from the LDM. case

You are mistaken here amigo, for only the ore from the same mine will match the ore in Waltz's matchbox.  A geologist would be able to tell you with the certainty of fingerprints - so I again have to respectfully disagree about "any ore could be classified as Dutchman ore" absolutely.

The infamous matchbox, so frequently mis-identified as a "lighter" due to the resemblance

Compare to this ore specimen


One last bit and I will close this long-winded post - it should not be too surprising for GOLD to come from a SILVER mine.  The amount of gold to silver in any mine varies, especially as one mines deeper in the vein.  Silver mines in the Tombstone district were found to have good gold values as the water table was reached, a result of (by the theory of one geologist anyway) the silver being more chemically reactive to the environment, "leaching" out of the ore leaving the gold behind.   So despite the old song about looking for gold in a silver mine, it is a natural feature of geology.    Kind of makes us old prospectors want to give those old silver mines a second look! 

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. 
Oroblanco
 

PS - just for the edification of our beginners whom are likely reading our discussion but not actively posting, here is what Rose Quartz looks like


Unfortunately I do not have a photo of gold IN Rose Quartz, but I think you can see the difference.  The photos of the matchbox occasionally have a rather reddish cast, which gives a slight color perception problem. Anyone have a photo of Breyfogle's ore? 
Oroblanco

Oro, thanks for the education. This is not a easy subject to grasp peroid.
When you publish your book, I will be in line to purchase a copy. I love the photos of the ores,especially the rose quartz. I can just imagine the rose quartz studded with gold or silver nuggets. This is what drives me to prospect. Your points are well taken by me, and I thank you for your time.
Regards to you and your ORE,gd

[very far]

Ghostdog thank you for the kind words - and I hope I have not presented the 'argument' in an offensive way.  You brought up very valid points which many a treasure hunter has been confused about.  I think that too many treasure hunters out hunting for a lost MINE, don't bother to learn anything about geology which would be very helpful in their quest. Instead they rely ONLY on clues and/or maps, which as far as I know, have resulted in very few discoveries and many a disappointment.  If anything I said came across offensive or "know it all" my apologies as no offense was intended.  And I surely am very far from knowing it all, geology, treasure hunting or any other subject! 

The ore from the Amargosa gold mine in California is gold in rose quartz and VERY pretty, IMHO it ought to have been made into jewelry - unfortunately most (if not all) has gone through the mill and the gold melted but there might be some photos floating around.  I am still looking for a decent photo of gold in rose quartz, for you know we have more readers here than we have active posters and it is for their benefit as well.

I will be happy to drop you a note as soon as the book is out, though what I have been working on has nothing to do with the Lost Dutchman, Peralta Stones or lost treasures of any kind so I hope I have not been misleading you (or anyone reading our discussions) with the subject matter. 

Ghostdog - I have a question for you, do you think we will learn the truth about the Peralta Stones, within say the next 20 years?  I know that some new technologies are being developed, which might enable an exact date or nearly so, to be determined for those engravings. What do you think? Thank you in advance, 
your friend in "Dakota Territory"
Roy ~ Oroblanco
 

Well Roy , unless some new imformation crops up that can establish a chain of proveinonce to the Peralta Stones, I see them as remaining a enigma shrouded in continued conterversy. It makes a very interesting aside to everything else that is associated with the Peraltas,Dutchman and the Superstitions. One thing for sure Time is on the side of the Peralta Stones,they will outlast us all.   I think Shakespear said" to be or not to be that is the question " and yes new scientific techniques can play a identifeying role and maybe they will.gd

GD,

I am not sure that this applies to the two trail maps, but the people at the museum believe they are fakes.  I have personally been told that.....in private, but doubt you will ever hear them say that in public.  The Peralta Stone Maps continue to be a draw for the museum.

The only archaeology professionals (willing to put their names in a public article) to examine the stones, label them fakes.

I have little doubt they are correct, but can tell you that the trail maps are legitimate maps of the Superstitions.  That means they were created by someone who is very familiar with the terrain and the stories and legends of the mountains.

Take care,

Joe

Ghostdog wrote

Well Roy , unless some new imformation crops up that can establish a chain of proveinonce to the Peralta Stones, I see them as remaining a enigma shrouded in continued conterversy. It makes a very interesting aside to everything else that is associated with the Peraltas,Dutchman and the Superstitions. One thing for sure Time is on the side of the Peralta Stones,they will outlast us all.   I think Shakespear said" to be or not to be that is the question " and yes new scientific techniques can play a identifeying role and maybe they will.gd

I take it that you want more history beyond Tumlinson's discovery of them?  Not to be the wet blanket but you will not get any more history back past that point.  As our mutual amigo Cactusjumper has already pointed out, the experts who did examine them pronounced them fakes.  Now we do not have to accept that verdict, and they COULD be mistaken, in which case what are they? 

The man who found them used them to try to find hidden treasures, without luck.  Many others have followed suit, with similar lack of results.  As maps to treasures, the Peralta Stones are a singular example for lack of results. Whether they are real maps to lost treasures and/or mines or are, as several experts concluded pure fakes, I personally would not bother trying to use them to find treasures based on the results others have had with them.  So I do not recommend the Peralta Stones to anyone, but have no problem with anyone who chooses to try their luck.

I would sooner recommend almost any of the over 60 maps online at the Apache Junction public library site, before these Peralta stones, in fact ONE of them I have very strong suspicions is real and possibly<almost> correct. Please don't ask me which one! 
your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Hi Roy,

Frank Fish's map?

Take care,

Joe

  I'll never tell! 

Well guys, to add a little more from my perspective, its possible the Peralta stones on display in the museum are not true blue copies, another words they are missing details the originals have. Also the Peralta stones are original to the maker, thus they are not fakes,at least in that respect. If they are fakes, then what are they copies of ? So ya its possible they are copies from a  map in the museum, a painting, a drawing,landscape, rock etching, cave painting, or original Peralta mineing map. Only the maker can say what there true purpose is,but personally, the photo of them sittin on that early 50"s truck bumber makes me feel they represent something important, 

GD,
You bring up my question, if they are considered fakes the what are they fakes of? a fake is usually a copy of some original. If someone declares them a "fake" what does that really mean if we don't know what they are supposed to be in the first place, they could very well be originals simply created in the early 1900's for who know what.   
Great conversation
Bill   

GD & Bill,

There are many definitions of "fake"  One is "a document trying to prove something which is not true".  The premiss of the Stone Maps, is that they lead to something of value, and they were made by a Spaniard(s).  They are also trying to convey the impression they were made in a pre-1900 era.

They are post 1900 creations, and were created by people who's first language was not Spanish.  Because of those attempts to deceive, it seems logical that they don't lead to anything of value.

Two deceptions don't bode well for a truthful conclusion.

My conclusion is opinion.  The rest of the post seems factual.

Joe Ribaudo

[If they are fakes, then what are they copies of ?]

Ghostdog wrote

If they are fakes, then what are they copies of ?

and Bill96 wrote

if they are considered fakes the what are they fakes of?

Our amigo Cactusjumper has already explained, but to put in simple terms - they are fake TREASURE MAPS.  You or I could create fake treasure maps and have no "original" we are copying from, as there is no need of any original for such a fake.  A good example is play money - it is FAKE money, not a real attempt to copy genuine money but just a fake, a PROP.   

There are lots and lots of treasure maps out there amigos, some of which have more "provenance" than our Peralta stones and may be true.  You are sure welcome to go ahead and try your luck using the Peralta stones as maps to help you find treasures, and if you are successful I will be happy to congratulate you, but I believe you would have better odds playing any lottery. 
Oroblanco

Ok then, Oro,Bill, Cactus,& group,I agree to disagree on why the map was or was not made , however why would the map maker{s}, produce these large maps{blocks},see original photo to get a idea of size, includeing the Heart stone,and then Bury them beside some lonely hiway. I theroize that they are very old,and were possibly being transported by Spanish mules when a indian attack occured and thus ended up at the found location. I have enclosed a photo of a Spanish "metate",that was dug up while searching for treasure in Texas. It was buried dureing the end of the Mexican revolution for Texas. Note the lettering, very similiar to other lettering on the Peralta Stones. My point for a possible maker timeline of the Peralta stones.

I know we are beatiing this to death but it's slow this morning so bare with me.
It's just the bizzare concept of someone createing a "fake" treasure map and to me word "fake" means  there is no treasure at the end of the trail, and then burying them and I assume with intent that they never to be found. Fake items turn up all the time that  are promoted as true historical artifacts and the goal is usually money or publicity, unless Tumblinson lied about where and how he found them then theses "fake" maps  were never intended to be found, they are just fake treasure maps that were created and buried. Whats the point of creating a fake if you can't show it to someone and maybe ask for money.

Bill     
     

Bill,

I don't think there is any right or wrong here, as we are all just offering our opinions.  Your reasoning is sound and makes perfect sense to me.

If it were just some casual passerby who stumbled over the stones, I would be asking the same thing.  It's the family connections that make me suspect there was something else afoot here.

We will probably never know all the details behind the Stone Maps.  I am satisfied with my own conclusions, but still find others stories interesting.

Take care,

Joe

[it IS your time to spend!]

Agreed - I don't have any bone to pick with Ghostdog, Bill96 or anyone whom is convinced the Peralta Stones are real maps to lost treasures.  I was posting my opinions only, based on the info we have available and am NOT an expert on the Peralta Stones by any stretch.  I think you are wasting your time with them, but it IS your time to spend!   
Roy ~ Oroblanco

People DID make money on the Stones - just not as much as they wanted to, starting with Tumlinson's wife.


B

People DID make money on the Stones - just not as much as they wanted to, starting with Tumlinson's wife.


B

Beth,

Since it has been a while since all this was hashed out in my old Stone Maps Thread, I will reiterate it briefly here.

I spent MONTHS researching the history of the Stone Maps AFTER Tumlinson supposedly found them in 1949. I received information from several sources. Some of it was "trust me" type information, and some of it was copies of legal documents. I have also said it OVER and OVER and OVER.......Don't look at what was said. Look at what people did!"

1. Travis Tumlinson kept the stone maps pretty much secret for the years he first possessed them (1949-1956). When he got too sickly, he passed them to his brother (Robert).

2. His brother possessed them for several years, and NEVER attempted to sell them. The only person he ever told about them was his landlord in order for him to pay for several trips (four I think) from Oregon to the Supers to try and figure the secret. When he became too sickly, he passed the stone maps back to his brother (about 1960).

3. Travis Tumlinson, still to sickly to do anything with them, kept them a secret until his death in 1961.

SO FAR..... Neither Travis Tumlinson nor his brother Robert, in TWELVE YEARS of ownership NEVER attempted to sell them. THAT ALONE tells me that they both believed them to be authentic treasure maps. Pretty simple assumption.

4. After Robert Tumlinson passed away. his wife (Aileen) told an old family friend about the stone maps (Clarence O. Mitchell). Mitchell OFFERED to buy the stone maps for $1200. Aileen Tumlinson sold them to him. NOW.........would you (or anybody you know) sell something you knew or thought to be fake to an "old family friend"? I wouldn't.

5. Clarence O. Mitchell formed MOEL Inc. (MOEL= Mining, Oil, Exploration, and Leasing). The purpose of MOEL was Mineral and Oil Exploration and mining. Also leasing of mineral rich land to mining and oil companies. He kept the stone maps a complete secret (from all except his partners) from the time of his purchase in 1961 until 1964. It was around that time that "Travis Marlowe" came on the scene. Travis Marlowe was the ficticious "nom de plume" of none other than Clarence O. Mitchell. A LOT of people don't know that. It was at this time that the 12 June 1964 edition of Time Magazine featured an article about the Stone Maps. THAT'S when the proverbial sh... hit the fan.

6. I separated this section because it is a HUGE point of contention with many people regarding the authenticity of the stone maps. The story that most people have heard is that The SEC filed charges against MOEL Inc for illegally selling stocks using the stone maps to boost publicity and profits. THIS IS NOT TRUE!!!!!!! It is also said that the FBI confiscated the stone maps and took them to a Professor of Geology at the University of Redlands, Ca. I have not been able to verify that this happened, BUT Bob Corbin (the former Attorney General of the State of Arizona) stated that one day in 1964 (long story short), he saw the stone maps in the Justice Dept Office (in the possession of two FBI Agents). He was told by the agents that they had the stone maps inspected, and they believed that the stone maps were "AT LEAST" 100 years old.

Here is what REALLY happened:

MOEL Inc was indeed selling shares in the company. They had been doing that since MOEL'S formation. They had just not filed ONE form that was necessary for them to legally sell stock shares in the company during the year 1964. They were stopped from selling stock for a few weeks until their court hearing in Los Angeles in September of 1964 (I am on my laptop right now, and my copies of the legal documents are home on my desktop). The trial lasted for all of about ONE HALF OF A DAY! They basically showed up for court to prove that nothing fraudulent had happened. They then filed the proper form, and the issue was closed.

7. MOEL went about business as usual until about 1969 when the company started petering out. As part of a mutual agreement, Mitchell had an exact set of copies of the stone maps made, and he gave two originals and two copies to a partner, and he kept two originals and two copies. In 1971, Mitchell made a donation of the stone maps (for tax purposes) to the AL Flagg Foundation. They have been owned there, stored and shown by the Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum. In the mid to late 1980s, the museum wanted to have a few sets of copies of the stone maps made, so they could be taken around the country and displayed without endangering the originals (they didn't know that only two were original). They contracted a special effects company from Phoenix (I believe) to make about four sets of copies. They actually made 8-10 copies and sold some. They then sold the molds to an artist in Laguna Beach, Ca, who made original size and half size copies. All-in-all, there were about 25 or so sets of copies the stone maps made. A good friend of mine has one of the sets of copies hanging on the wall of his office.

Hope this helps.

Best-Mike

Gollum,

Don't forget that, after Mitchell had his "day in court", so to speak, that one of his partners AGAIN had to be told to "cease and desist" - this time a month later (Mitchell in October, Kreiwald in November), so Moel Co didn't stop with the October 1964 problems, until the second one in November - the 16th, I believe.

Nobody - has yet proved that the stones were over 100 years old - that was just a statement from ONE person, but the fact of the matter is, all stone is over 100 years old, the stones had been washed/cleaned, so it would be impossible to make that assumption, PLUS, being part of the government, the stones would have fallen under the Antiquities Act and never would have been returned if they were, without a doubt, genuine, and over 100 years old.

I will add to that - that it has definitely had the earmarks of a case of who knew what and was associated with whom.

B

Gollum,

Don't forget that, after Mitchell had his "day in court", so to speak, that one of his partners AGAIN had to be told to "cease and desist" - this time a month later (Mitchell in October, Kreiwald in November), so Moel Co didn't stop with the October 1964 problems, until the second one in November - the 16th, I believe.

Nobody - has yet proved that the stones were over 100 years old - that was just a statement from ONE person, but the fact of the matter is, all stone is over 100 years old, the stones had been washed/cleaned, so it would be impossible to make that assumption, PLUS, being part of the government, the stones would have fallen under the Antiquities Act and never would have been returned if they were, without a doubt, genuine, and over 100 years old.

I will add to that - that it has definitely had the earmarks of a case of who knew what and was associated with whom.

B

Beth,

I trust the word of Bob Corbin. I don't personally know him, but I know people who do. They trust him, and then so do I. One thing you have to remember is that in 1964, the true origin of the stone maps was not public knowledge. If they were proven to have been dug up in Arizona, then yes, they would have fallen under the Antiquities Act. If Travis Tumlinson told them that he brought them up from Arizpe, Sonora, Mex.....hhhmmmmmm. Federal Authorities would have no jurisdiction over them. Remember that a very plausible story is that they were stolen from under the bed of the Arizpe Mission, and brought up to Texas and sold to Tumlinson's father "Pegleg" Tumlinson (his treasure hunting father).

Best-Mike

Too many "ifs" for me.

So, Tumlinson never said a word to anyone, but DID tell them (whoever "them" is) that they were stolen from Mexico?  So, the government would let stolen property just "go away"? (or smuggled, stolen property, at best)?


I'm sorry, but I have to take Bob Corbin with a grain of salt - not because I don't trust him - but simply because he had the ability to do something about it, (he was an Attorney General, after all) and did not, PLUS, who was he really listening to?  And, he if really knew the truth, why is there still a question - why did he not set anything straight?  I cannot buy that.

I think Kollenborn was closer, when he said in his Chronicles that Clarence Mitchell used the Life article, on purpose,  to get interest and money from investors.
Then Mitchell writes his own book in 1965?  With pen-name Travis Marlowe? (Superstitions Treasures) More looking for money? (and only a few months after the SEC got after the Moel Corp? 

And why would he get together with Tumlinson's wife to donate them to the Flagg Foundation?  Maybe to wash their hands of the whole affair?  After all, he was running out of places to get money from.

There have been more schemes with the Peralta Stones - certain people make money with them every single year, still.  The Flagg Foundation, the Don's Club, The Museum, and more.

Heck, it is thought that 90% of the schemes involving  the Supers involve the Peralta Stones.

Heck, Robert Simpson Jacob (Crazy Jake) bilked investors out of 30 MILLION dollars using the Peralta Stones.  Pretty good chunk of change, heh?  Those Stones do not have to lead to a gold treasure - they make millions just being around.

B

Mike,thanks for that imformation, it clears up a lot of questions for me regarding the Stones history, and for me confirms their originality . I did not see your post before but is sure is interesting.

Thanks GD.

Beth,

You make several statements that are not correct or have the timeline wrong.

1. I didn't say that he DEFINITELY said that to the FBI Agents. I used that only as a possibility. He could have told them ANYTHING that would have kept him out of the purview of the FBI or Arizona State Gov. We don't know because those files are sealed.

2. Bob Corbin was not the Attorney General at the time he saw the stone maps. He was just an attorney at the time. A friend who knew he was interested in the LDM told him the stone maps were there with FBI Agents.

3. Where did you hear that Mitchell got together with Aileen Tumlinson to donate the stone maps to the AM&M Museum?? I have never heard that before. Everything I have ever heard states that Mitchell donated the stone maps for a tax deduction.

NOT ONE of the OWNERS of the stone maps has ever perpetrated any frauds that involved them. It was only others who claimed to have some secret knowledge of the solution of the riddle of the stone maps.

I have also said this before...... I believe that the stone maps (at one time) led to either treasure or hidden mines. The fact that they were found all together (especially including the heart stone) makes it glaringly obvious (to me) that whatever the maps at one time led to has either been recovered or is no longer of any value. Just like the gold of Victorio Peak, NM. Uncle Sam removed all that in the 1960s and 1970s. Probably nothing left but some neat caves.

Best-Mike

Mike,


I understand that most of this is conjecture - Bob Corbin still had the power to follow it up - you know it, I know it.  The fact that he may not have been the Attorney General at the time, means just about -0-.  He had the power to follow it up with the FBI, OR follow it up after he became AG, but he didn't - since he was so involved and interested - why didn't he.

I don't believe I said that MOEL was prosecuted for fraud about the stones - but - Clarence/Travis Mitchell/Marlowe DID made money on the stones - without a doubt. 
And, yes - many others perpetrated fraud using the Stones.  But, like I said, I believe that it was no accident that Life got the story in 1964, I think it was Mitchell/Marlowe who gave the story on purpose, to gain some recognition - it just backfired on him.

I heard the Tumlinson's wife (widow) and Mitchell story through Tom Kollenborn,  as did Tom say that MOEL was told to cease and desist or else they WOULD be prosecuted for fraud. (we know that Mitchell did plead guilty and paid a fine in October 1964, as did his partner Kreiwald in November of 1964) - more than a full month later.

I still do not believe that anyone, in their right mind, would lug around stone maps for a treasure, or anything else.  Talk about not being able to hide something. (like a map on a piece of leather, for instance).  First, it had to take awhile to make them - if they were real, it would have taken even longer - and, its not like they could have loaded them in their station wagon 100 years ago when they finished with them.

B

Who says that Corbin never followed up on the Stone Maps? People do lots of things they don't talk about. Especially when it comes to finding evidence of a rich lost gold mine (or mines). Possibly the same reason that Thomas Glover didn't publish the results of the matchbox ore sample. Same reason why many people keep LDM evidence close to their chests. Remember, Bob Corbin is a Dutch Hunter. It is also a possibility that the stone maps have absolutely nothing to do with the Peraltas, and he had little interest in them. Who knows.

I can actually fathom why it would have been done. If you have a paper or leather map at home, it is subject to being stolen, chewed by rats, or burned in a fire. If you possess only the heart stone, if it is stolen, it is meaningless, and since it is stone it wouldn't necessarily be damaged in a fire and rats would not chew on it.

You use the same exact route heading from Mexico into the Supers every year to work your mines. It would be simple enough to leave the stone maps in places where by themselves, they would lead to nothing, but when you collected them all on the way North, they led the way to your mines. On the way back home they would just be redeposited where they were picked up. Chances of someone finding one is a possibility, but finding all of them from separate hiding places is almost impossible. And even if they were all found, they would still be useless without the heart stone which was easily concealable to bring home every year. If the mines were as rich as they were supposed to be, I could easily see someone doing that.

Best-Mike

Mike, thanks again for takeing the time to post the history timeline. After reading your post a few times I feel more than ever the Original Stones are authenic and probaly did come from a old mission in Mexico.
I also theroize there may be more Stones not uncovered yet ,and I feel the Heart stone could actually be Aztec in nature, maybe a copy,or could be a original. The Aztecs excelled in this type of Hiroglphics. Its a good probablity Tumelson, made up made the story up of findeing the stones as cover so as not to reveal the true source and protect   his fathers involvement in possibly stolen goods?. If I lived in Mexico I would be searching for more Peralta Stones.done/finished/drained   :coffee:and going for a cold beer.gd

I didn't say Corbin didn't follow up on the Stone Maps - I said he was in a position to LEGALLY put it to rest, in one way or another, and he never did.

Why would you need to collect stone maps (or any map) to take on your way to a mine you have been to every year?  I don't understand that statement.

I gotta say, though - if I was a Dutch Hunter ( ), and I had been working with 2 friends on finding it, and one of my friends called me up and said "I figured it out, come with me", I'd be packing my bags.

The Stones, and I believe this is the only realistic conclusion, is that they were fake, that would have been made by only a handful, a small handful of people.  The best, and highest on the list, especially if they are older - would have been done in the process of one Reavis trying to claim everything belonged to him.  My second 2 guesses would be a couple of writers we all know.

The Peralta Stones, imo, and with much of the same "held close to the chest" information that you probably have - has absolutely nothing to do with the LDM or its whereabouts.

B

One thing Matt said is a little troubling, though.  He said he saw (Bob), the actual stone report - but...............................

B,

Who is Matt? Who said they saw the Stone Report? Bob Corbin only said that he spoke to the FBI Agents, and they said that it was the opinion of the FBI that the stone maps were at least 100 years old.

I have heard two versions of what happened. In one, the FBI took the stone maps to the University of Arizona, and in the other, they went to the University of Redlands, Ca. I have been unable, so far, to verify either version, so I have reserved judgement on that part.

As far as having maps. If we follow the logic of your statement, then why bother to make maps at all? I mean if the family knows where their treasure is hidden, why bother? Easy. It is for those that follow. In case dad dies, then someone else can go behind him, and use the knowledge to recover what was hidden? Follow the logic:

1. Going North to the location of the fist stone. Keep the heart stone in possession at all times.

2. When you caravan into the mountains every Fall, if you don't need the stone maps, then don't dig them up or use them. Leave them be. If you need them, dig them up, and write down whats on them. On the way out, destroy what you have written. Hide the stone maps in such a way that each one leads to the next.

If they are authentic, they seem to have been VERY successful at keeping their secret! HAHAHA If they were fakes, I have said all along that they were most likely made by Reavis, and he was busted before being able to use them to bolster his case. When he was arrested, whoever held them may have just dumped them all in one spot where they lay for about 70 years until 1949 when they were found.

Best-Mike

GD,

"I feel the Heart stone could actually be Aztec in nature, maybe a copy,or could be a original. The Aztecs excelled in this type of Hiroglphics."

I have spent a lot of time on Aztec culture and their codices.  Don't recall ever seeing a heart shape.  In any case, the writing is a white man's attempt at Spanish/Mexican.  The stones have nothing to do with anything Aztec.

The horse and priest drawings are a cartoonish style taken from around the 1940's.  The profile of the priest's face is a dead ringer for Chuck Aylor.  All of that points out a likely suspect for the creator of those particular "maps".

The original heart shape probably originated in Africa.  It's an interesting history, that I looked into around three years ago.

If you would like to pursue your theory, I would be happy to recommend some good books on the subject of the Aztec's.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

[AND THAT NO REGISTRATION STATEMENT AS TO THE SECURITIES WAS IN EFFECT OR HAD BEEN FILED WITH THE COMMISSION]

B,

I don't know where TK got anything about a second hearing against Kriewald. He was named in the September Litigation Release along with Clarence O Mitchell and Grace G Mitchell. There was only one trial.

I will quote here from the SEC Litigation Release #3040 dated September 28, 1964:

.....the defendants made use of the mails and facilities of interstate commerce in the offer and sale of securities, namely, capital stock of MOEL Inc., AND THAT NO REGISTRATION STATEMENT AS TO THE SECURITIES WAS IN EFFECT OR HAD BEEN FILED WITH THE COMMISSION as required by the Securities Act of 1933.

This was the only litigation brought against them. If I am mistaken, please show me otherwise. Until then, I will go by the official SEC statements I have.

Best-Mike

Best-Mike

Mike,

In those days, as well as today, many magazines paid pretty good money for interesting stories.  I would say the Stone Maps was plenty interesting.

Do you personally know any stories where someone tried to sell a phony bill of goods, and the story never saw the light of day/publication?  I do, and my guess is that you know more stories like that than I do.

We don't know if the Stone Map story was hawked to Hollywood/movie/television, or hardback book.  They would hardly have advertised that they were turned down.  Most of those folks would have asked for that "Redlands" report.  You were about to find that thing a number of years ago.  Can you tell us what happened?

Don't mean any disrespect by my posts, just trying to pry out the truth on these subjects.  The only way to do that is to question the "facts" until they hollar.

Take care,

Joe

Hey guys no matter what the truth, I like the story, and I"m gonna write a script useing my  version and pitch it to Hollywood. I believe it has some teeth to it....gdproductions

[He told me that they believed the maps were at least a hundredyears old. To my recollection that's all he said about the maps.]

HOLA amigos,

Why is it that whenever these Peralta Stones get injected into a discussion, it always degenerates into the divided camps of believers and disbelievers?   It seems that when a person comes to believe they are genuine, this belief is un-shakeable even if some leaps of logic and all kinds of scenarios have to be invented to keep that mythos alive.  Likewise, when a person becomes convinced they are frauds, no amount of possible explanations will sway.  Regardless of WHICH story of the genesis of these stones you choose to believe, here is the root of MY problem with them.

As for the basis of the Peralta Stones being "at least 100 years old" here is Gollum's quote,

Here are the words of Mr. Robert Corbin. The former Attorney General of the State of Arizona;

"It was approximately in the late 1960's, I believe, that I was at the
U.S. Attorneys office in Phoenix, when one of the Deputy U.S. Attorneys
told me that an FBI agent from the FBI laboratory in Washington DC was
in their office. Apparently, the Phoenix office had obtained the stone
maps to have them analyzed by the FBI laboratory to see if they were
recent fakes. He asked if I would like to speak with the agent since I
was interested in the Lost Dutchman Mine and I said I would. I spoke
with the agent and asked him what they had found in analyzing the stone
maps. He told me that they believed the maps were at least a hundred
years old. To my recollection that's all he said about the maps.

Bob Corbin"

<from http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,47594.msg343771.html#msg343771>

In court they would call this "HEARSAY" - Corbin telling us the words he heard from another person, with no scientific testing whatever. When compared with the statements of OTHERS who actually examined them, here is what they said.
From Father Charles Polzer, SJ, a recognized Arizona historian,

Upon close examination, Father Polzer found that the surface of the stones had been milled with modern machinery before the drawings were inscribed thereon. And he went on to say, "…the drawings were cut into the stones with modern tools. The language and lettering is modern, if somewhat illiterate Spanish, clearly not colonial Spanish. The heart shape drawn on stone #3 is strictly of Northern European or Anglo character; Spaniards never depicted the idea of a heart with this kind of geometry." He went on at length describing more discrepancies, and in the end he concluded that, "…the stone carvings are a hoax of relatively recent origin."

Now our believers will howl "BIAS" since Polzer was a Jesuit, but is this really justified?  What on the Peralta Stones would link absolutely to the Jesuits, which would require that Polzer should lie about it?  Nothing on them is specifically Jesuit and absolutely Jesuit.  However Father Polzer is not the only person who examined them so we don't have to be concerned that he may have been biased.
Three experts were involved, Research Archaeologist Dr. Jenny Adams, Research Geologist Dr. Elizabeth Miksa, and Historical Archaeologist Homer Thiel. Here are some extracts on what their conclusions were:

1. "There is no evidence that the stones were ever buried."

2. "The dark stones were mechanically sanded and then drilled.........In many places, there is a 'start dimple' where the drill first touched the stone."

3. "The use of an electric drill to create the drawings and symbols............dates their carving to sometime after 1940."
(Dr. Adams)

4. ......"the Peralta Stones originated far from where they were supposedly found."

5. "The big stone with the horse appears to be Coconino Sandstone,...... The other two sandstones are very soft, very fine, iron-rich ...sandstones. [These] are most likely found on the Mogolon Rim or in northern Arizona." (Dr. Miksa)

6. "The lettering is completely wrong for the Spanish language documents of the [supposed] time period." (Prof. Thiel)

When we have FOUR experts examine some evidence and they ALL concur that it is FALSE, that is enough for me not to wish to expend any further time trying to use it as a guide to find lost treasures.

Now amigos you are certainly free and welcome to believe in the Peralta Stones as genuine maps to hidden treasures and/or mines, but even so, consider this fact - that Tumlinson used them to search the Superstitions for years without finding any treasures OR mines.  Many others have followed suit.  So even if they ARE genuine, and this would mean the experts are ALL wrong, then there is some fatal flaw in them.  Why spend your valuable time using these very questionable stones to search, when there are far better and more reliable methods at your disposal? 

I won't keep pestering you folks with this, if you choose NOT to trust the various experts whom have studied the Peralta Stones then it is your choice, it is a matter almost of "faith" and no amount of logic, expert opinions or reasoning will change that.  Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. 
Oroblanco

Joe,

You can't prove a negative. I think that the Tumlinson had ever attempted to hawk the stones, that story would have come out a long time ago. I will have to go on the assumption that everything I know about the stone maps since 1949 is correct until I proven wrong.

The Archive Secretary at Redlands University contacted Jane Dana. She asked that I write her with my request. I did so during the holiday season a couple of years ago, and never heard back from her. Talk about funny coincidences.....I just finished another letter to her this afternoon. I dug her address out of my old emails.

The new letter will go out tomorrow. I'll let you know what happens.

One thing that Archive Secretary said to me was that Steven Dana's Research Asst. told her that he thought Steve did that project independent of the University, but wasn't certain.

Best-Mike.

Roy,

You also seem, to keep missing the part where Mitchell had a set of copies made in 1969 to satisfy his partner in getting two real and two copies. Also, in the late 1980s the AM&M Museum had several sets of copies made (these were not exact copies as they were cast and not carved.

1. "There is no evidence that the stones were ever buried."

You seem to omit the finding part of the story that Charlie Miller told both Al Reser and Don Shade, that when Tumlinson first brought the stone maps by his house, they still had little roots growing out of all the grooves.

Thomas Glover's LDM Book pg# 338

I know I can't convince anyone with a closed mind, but I keep stating the facts of the story that are known.

Best-Mike

[The copies were CAST, the examples which were examined had clear tool marks.]

HOLA amigos,

Gollum wrote

You also seem, to keep missing the part where Mitchell had a set of copies made in 1969 to satisfy his partner in getting two real and two copies. Also, in the late 1980s the AM&M Museum had several sets of copies made (these were not exact copies as they were cast and not carved

I am not "missing" the copies amigo, but are you saying that the experts named examined COPIES and NOT the originals?  The copies were CAST, the examples which were examined had clear tool marks.  The copies are irrelevant.

Gollum also wrote

You seem to omit the finding part of the story that Charlie Miller told both Al Reser and Don Shade, that when Tumlinson first brought the stone maps by his house, they still had little roots growing out of all the grooves.

I did not omit that to be humorous amigo, for we have ZERO proof that such roots were ever present, and we have the story that the stones were rigorously scrubbed clean, which would leave few or no roots for the experts to examine.  Are you taking the position that all four of these named experts are lying or mistaken? Thank you in advance,  
Roy ~ Oroblanco

PS - Do you deny that Tumlinson used the Peralta Stones to search for treasures or mines in the Superstition mountains and had ZERO success?  Again thank you in advance,

[All of us]

Roy,

"It seems that when a person comes to believe they are genuine, this belief is un-shakeable even if some leaps of logic and all kinds of scenarios have to be invented to keep that mythos alive."

Around 35 (or so) years ago, I became totally convinced that the Stone Maps were the real thing and led to Jesuit treasure.  Every single research rock I turned over only led me farther down that path.  Some have said, that not finding treasure is the only thing that changed my mind.  They casually throw out the fact that I was constantly researching the other side of my belief.
 
That being said, I have no problem with those who are just as convinced as I was 35 years ago.  I can understand their fever.  It took many years of digging to cool mine.  I knew I had read the maps correctly, just didn't know what I would find.  Eventually the evidence started to slowly pile up against the stones.  In time, the identity of the creator(s) came into focus.  While each and every piece of that evidence is circumstantial, their combined weight is compelling.  I could, of course, be wrong.

I know Bob Corbin, and have complete trust in his word.  For those who have never spent any time with the man, your opinions may be lacking some important personal insight.  All of us tend to rush to judge those and that which we don't know.
 
I would suggest that those who still believe in the Stone Maps, research the opposing side of your belief.  It may be that you will find something that no one else could find.  Good luck!
 
So in closing, my friend, I believe you have thrown me in with the unshakeable believers.  I am living proof that your premiss is less than accurate, and you need a slightly smaller brush.

Take care,

Joe

uhuhuh

The copies the AM&M Museum had made in the late 1980s were cast. NOT the first set that Mitchell had. From my source, the stone map copies he had made were exactly like the originals. It is entirely possible that the four scientists examined the two copies.

You said that there was no evidence that the stone maps had ever been buried, but that is not quite so, is it? We have the word of one person who saw the stone maps right after they were supposedly found. The man told the same story to two people. We also have the word of Travis Tumlinson. While it might not be hard evidence, it is enough to put a person in jail! UNless you can PROVE that either Charlie Miller or Travis Tumlinson were dishonest people?

Best-Mike

Joe,

I know exactly what you think of the stone maps.

While I believe somewhat differently, I hold the firm opinion that they were at least 100 years old in 1964. The word of the FBI is good enough for me.

Now, I have two possibilities:

1. They were faked for use in the Reavis Land Grant Fraud, and were all dumped before they could be publicized (even though they would only be about 80 at that time is close enough).

2. They at one time, led to something(s) very valuable. But the fact that ALL the stones were dumped together tells me that whatever they led to is now gone or worthless.

The only value the stone maps have for me is strictly historical in nature. I may be wrong on both counts, but that is where I stand on the subject.

Best-Mike

[You said that there was no evidence that the stone maps had ever been buried,]

Cactusjumper wrote

I believe you have thrown me in with the unshakeable believers. I am living proof that your premiss is less than accurate, and you need a slightly smaller brush.

Perhaps you misread what I posted, I did say it SEEMS, not it is an absolute fact.  I stand with the same brush.

Gollum wrote

You said that there was no evidence that the stone maps had ever been buried, but that is not quite so, is it?

Read more carefully amigo - I did not say that, all of the statements I posted were the words of Research Archaeologist Dr. Jenny Adams, Research Geologist Dr. Elizabeth Miksa, and Historical Archaeologist Homer Thiel - NOT my own. 

I see that you carefully avoided answering the questions I posed to you Mike, an oversight I will presume due to the intensity of the subject matter.  Here were my questions.

1. Are you taking the position that all four of these named experts are lying or mistaken?

2. Do you deny that Tumlinson used the Peralta Stones to search for treasures or mines in the Superstition mountains and had ZERO success? I thank you in advance,

Roy ~ Oroblanco

The first question was easily answered in my post: I BELIEVE THAT THE SCIENTISTS EXAMINED THE COPIES THAT MITCHELL HAD MADE IN 1969.

I have told the story of Travis and Robert Tumlinson several times including today here. Did I say anywhere that either Travis or Robert found anything despite twelve or so trips to Az by Travis or in four or more trips by Robert? No I did not. Your question was answered before you asked it.

The story in those sixteen or so trips into the Superstitions is that both of the Tumlinson brothers were firm believers in the authenticity of the stone maps.

Best-Mike

[I BELIEVE THAT THE SCIENTISTS EXAMINED THE COPIES THAT MITCHELL HAD MADE IN 1969.]

HOLA amigos,

Gollum wrote

Your question was answered before you asked it.

I beg to differ, you had not answered my questions.  I will point this up.

Gollum wrote

The first question was easily answered in my post: I BELIEVE THAT THE SCIENTISTS EXAMINED THE COPIES THAT MITCHELL HAD MADE IN 1969.

Well amigo I re-read your posts, and this is what I found, quote

It is entirely possible that the four scientists examined the two copies.

end quote

Maybe it is my reading of it, but those two statements are VERY different.  Saying "it is possible they examined" is not the same as saying "I believe they did examine" in my book. Not trying to be nit-picky, just want clarity in this most cloudy subject so I understand you better!

I am a little surprised at your conclusion, for there is a major flaw in this line of reasoning that all the experts examined were mere copies.  Has it not occurred to you, this problem I am referring to?   Let me ask you this, if these same experts had made statements confirming  the antiquity and genuine-ness of the stones, would you think they possibly could have been examining COPIES?
 
Gollum also wrote

I have told the story of Travis and Robert Tumlinson several times including today here. Did I say anywhere that either Travis or Robert found anything despite twelve or so trips to Az by Travis or in four or more trips by Robert? No I did not.

No, you did not say they found anything, I was asking you if you deny that they failed to find anything - it is an important fact for anyone whom wishes to use these Peralta Stones to search for treasures, to keep in mind that those who first had possession (of record) already tried it, repeatedly, unsuccessfully.  All the rest is window dressing as far as the value of these curiosities as maps to hidden treasures, they have not produced.

Good luck and good hunting Mike (and everyone) I hope you find the treasures that you seek. 
Oroblanco

Mike and Roy,

"You seem to omit the finding part of the story that Charlie Miller told both Al Reser and Don Shade, that when Tumlinson first brought the stone maps by his house, they still had little roots growing out of all the grooves."

Dr. Glover likely got this story from Al Reser, who was a good friend.  He respected Al, and would never have doubted his word.  I am sure of that.  On the other hand, it was Charlie Miller who told Al the story.  Do you know which maps it was that Miller helped Tumlinson clean?  Do you have any idea why Tumlinson never mentioned having a friend helping him clean the stones?  Do you know why he never mentioned taking the stones to a friend's house in Arizona?

Don Shade wrote a book in 1994.  His chapter on "The Stone Tablets" begins on page 87.  In that chapter he fails to mention Charlie Miller's story.  On the other hand he does write this:  

"A group of individuals formed a corporation and sold stock for the purpose of obtaining funds to underwrite the search for the treasure supposedly depicted on the tablets.  Not registering with the proper authorities prior to selling stock in the corporation, the group found themselves in litigation.  a judge dissolved the corporation and turned the tablets over to the Flagg Foundation of Phoenix, Arizona.  In a recent conversation with Mr. E. C. Flagg, he indicated that I could refer to these tablets in this book.  At the present time, they are on display at the Mesa Southwest Museum in Mesa, Arizona."

While I would be happy to accept Al Reser's word, I have my doubts about Don Shade and Charlie Miller.  It would seem that Don Shade did  not have all of the facts in his book.  I don't know anything about Charlie Miller, but believe I could find out a great deal.  He is not an important figure in the Tumlinson pamphlet, in fact.......he is not a character at all.

Just thinking out loud, so to speak, here.  Carry on.

Take care,

Joe

Mike,

"The first question was easily answered in my post: I BELIEVE THAT THE SCIENTISTS EXAMINED THE COPIES THAT MITCHELL HAD MADE IN 1969."


The maps that the archaeologist's examined were stone, not plaster cast copies.  I believe they were more than qualified to tell the difference.

Take care,

Joe

Come on Joe, you're killing me here. Read my previous post #90. I answered that very same question for Roy!

The copies of the stone maps that Mitchell had made to split with his partner were engraved, not cast. I think that if Mitchell had tried to donate cast copies of the stone maps, they would have easily been spotted and his deal for a big tax break would never have materialized.

The only cast copies started being made in the mid-late 1980s.

Best-Mike

[it would be interesting to know your source for that information.]

Sorry Mike,

I fanned that part.  So you are saying that there were two sets of stone carved maps made by Mitchell.  Personally, I think that looks bad, and it would be interesting to know your source for that information.

I don't disagree with you that the archaeologist could have been examining copies.  Had they made their conclusions only on the physical evidence of the stone slabs, your point would be valid.

They took many other factors into consideration.  Artistic style, lettering, spelling and grammer.  They were highly qualified to make those conclusions.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

Mitchell had ONE set of copies made. One set of engraved copies. He gave two originals and two copies to one of his partners and kept two originals and two copies for himself. What the scientists looked at were two copies and two originals (if they actually examined all four). My source asked not to be named in open forum, but you know him and trust his word on the stone maps. Hope that helps.

The other things you mentioned that they examined about the stone maps have no bearing at all on their authenticity. If the stone maps were telling an historical story (like an official historical placard on a building), then we could compare spelling and grammar to known examples of the period. Remember, these are supposed to be secret maps guiding the way to mines or treasures. With such maps, one should expect most things on them to be heavily coded (including words and pictures). I say this because I possess a few authentic treasure maps. One of the family's caches has been recovered (mostly by accident). You can work out the map backwards from the known location of the cache back to the family estate. On every one of these maps, there are serious misspellings and strangely shaped letters. Some serve a very specific purpose, and some are just mistakes.

Also, I trust the person because I have gotten a wealth of actual documents concerning the stone maps history from him.

Best-Mike