Shroud of Turin

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091120/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_shroud_of_turin

A women claims to have found words written on the Shroud.

Sorry, I've never bought into that hoax...

Bran <><

More grasping at straws.
The Rubber room is open again.

Thanks for posting Tee, looks like there is becoming more and more evidence for authenticity than against.
(of course one would have to actually have read the entire article to learn that)

I do not think that it will ever be conclusively settled to everyone's satisfaction. Some will always believe, while others will always doubt.
Either way, Faith does not need tangible proof.

GG~

Thanks for posting Tee, looks like there is becoming more and more evidence for authenticity than against.
(of course one would have to actually have read the entire article to learn that)

GG~

She could have found the name of Jesus sewn right into it - the carbon dating has been inconclusive and I think the shroud will always be a mystery.   

I personally think it takes away for the case for Christ regardless of it's origins because it draws focus from the One and places faith on an object's authenticity, when it's irrelevant.   

Interesting though, finding words after it's been looked at already so closely.

She could have found the name of Jesus sewn right into it - the carbon dating has been inconclusive and I think the shroud will always be a mystery.   

I personally think it takes away for the case for Christ regardless of it's origins because it draws focus from the One and places faith on an object's authenticity, when it's irrelevant.   

Interesting though, finding words after it's been looked at already so closely.

Montana...do you know much about carbon dating?  A question I would like to ask of someone who does....please.  This shroud appears to be real to me.  It had pollens that were present in the day and time of Jesus.  It was woven in the same manner as done in Jesus time....It was caught in a fire if I remember right and it was mended by the nuns from the church...fire produces carbon...could it also alter the carbon dating?  The question I would like to ask is: Could the test they use for carbon dating give a false date or date the object to the date of the fire?  Any input would be appreciated.

[These; taken from the article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091120/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_shroud_of_turinWhile faint letters scattered around the face on the shroud were seen decades ago, serious researchers dismissed them, due to the results of the radiocarbon dating test, Frale told The Associated Press.But when she cut out the words from enhanced photos of the shroud and showed them to experts, they concurred the writing style was typical of the Middle East in the first century — Jesus' time.]

  

Interesting though, finding words after it's been looked at already so closely.

These; taken from the article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091120/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_shroud_of_turin

While faint letters scattered around the face on the shroud were seen decades ago, serious researchers dismissed them, due to the results of the radiocarbon dating test, Frale told The Associated Press.

But when she cut out the words from enhanced photos of the shroud and showed them to experts, they concurred the writing style was typical of the Middle East in the first century — Jesus' time.

Montana...do you know much about carbon dating?  A question I would like to ask of someone who does....please.  This shroud appears to be real to me.  It had pollens that were present in the day and time of Jesus.  It was woven in the same manner as done in Jesus time....It was caught in a fire if I remember right and it was mended by the nuns from the church...fire produces carbon...could it also alter the carbon dating?  The question I would like to ask is: Could the test they use for carbon dating give a false date or date the object to the date of the fire?  Any input would be appreciated.

Raymond Rogers of Los Alamos National Laboratory said in 2005 that the tested threads came from patches used to repair the shroud after a fire. Rogers, who died shortly after publishing his findings, calculated it is 1,300 to 3,000 years old and could easily date from Jesus' era.

GG~

* I do not think that it will ever be conclusively settled to everyone's satisfaction. Some will always believe, while others will always doubt.

 Either way, Faith does not need tangible proof.

really? that was proven to be made in the midevil era after intensive scientific study.

Ok it's a fake. Still doesn't shake my faith in Jesus and what He did for me.
Ok it's the real thing. Still doesn't change anything either.

 Some object made by man, and later found by more men, will never change the way that I believe.

Ok it's a fake. Still doesn't shake my faith in Jesus and what He did for me.
Ok it's the real thing. Still doesn't change anything either.

 Some object made by man, and later found by more men, will never change the way that I believe.

I think the story was trying to prove it is real.

how's your hens?  Ours were down to only 1 per day on eggs...after threatening them with Chicken and dumpling soup...and a light that comes on from 3 AM till 7 AM they are back up to 25-36 per day...amazing what a little light on the subject does....LOL

Ok it's a fake. Still doesn't shake my faith in Jesus and what He did for me.
Ok it's the real thing. Still doesn't change anything either.

 Some object made by man, and later found by more men, will never change the way that I believe.

I think the story was trying to prove it is real.

how's your hens?  Ours were down to only 1 per day on eggs...after threatening them with Chicken and dumpling soup...and a light that comes on from 3 AM till 7 AM they are back up to 25-36 per day...amazing what a little light on the subject does....LOL

 Yes I know it was tryin' to proove it to be real. However whenever someone tries to proove anything that has to do with christianity to be real, someone else always comes along just to try and to disprove it.
 I was just stating that no matter what man proves or even disproves with whatever methods, will never change what I believe. I have a personal relationship, not some make believe fantasy.
 And my hens are doin' great. Was that 1 per day per hen? Then it went to 25-36 per day? Mine ever since I have had them only lays about 1 per day per hen. I have 4 hens and everyday I will collect about 3-6 eggs. I acually thought in the beginning that I would need more hens. I am gettin enough eggs however to be able to give some to folks and still have enough for my family !

It really doesn't matter if the shroud is authentic. It has no 'value' to the legacy of Christ. He doesn't need verification.

However, for anyone to cop an attitude as if they know better as if by divine guidance etc THOSE are the people to avoid like the plague.

Remember, He came into the world to save 'sinners', who apparently continue to sin even after they see the Light. These sinners hover around the Light like flies on a pie. They like to be seen near the Light, and talk about the Light, but remain flies.

So, if believing in the shroud makes you feel good about the Light, then Shine my friend, Shine.

Cappy, don't usually agree too much with some of your posts, but that there was dead on ! These folks have a form of religion but deny the power thereof. They are trusting in thier religion, and not in the power (the source) of that religion.

 Just wanted to say how much I liked that post !

Cappy Z 

Ok it's a fake. Still doesn't shake my faith in Jesus and what He did for me.
Ok it's the real thing. Still doesn't change anything either.

 Some object made by man, and later found by more men, will never change the way that I believe.

I think the story was trying to prove it is real.

how's your hens?  Ours were down to only 1 per day on eggs...after threatening them with Chicken and dumpling soup...and a light that comes on from 3 AM till 7 AM they are back up to 25-36 per day...amazing what a little light on the subject does....LOL

 Yes I know it was tryin' to proove it to be real. However whenever someone tries to proove anything that has to do with christianity to be real, someone else always comes along just to try and to disprove it.
 I was just stating that no matter what man proves or even disproves with whatever methods, will never change what I believe. I have a personal relationship, not some make believe fantasy.
 And my hens are doin' great. Was that 1 per day per hen? Then it went to 25-36 per day? Mine ever since I have had them only lays about 1 per day per hen. I have 4 hens and everyday I will collect about 3-6 eggs. I acually thought in the beginning that I would need more hens. I am gettin enough eggs however to be able to give some to folks and still have enough for my family !

LOL...no 1 for the collective bunch!!!  they said it was too cold...too dark....and went on strike..  I believe I saw a picket sign or two!!!  So with light installed and treatened with chicken pot....they all hunckered down and started laying...

I agree Cappy Z.

The original dating of the mid evil period has been thrown out due to a mathmatical error with a decimal point in the original testing.  The reevaluation threw out the Mid evil time and placed the time a couple of hundred years prior, at or after the time of Jesus...hence the inconclusive results. on the dating.... Remains a mystery...the script on the Shroud....who knows.

She could have found the name of Jesus sewn right into it - the carbon dating has been inconclusive and I think the shroud will always be a mystery.   

I personally think it takes away for the case for Christ regardless of it's origins because it draws focus from the One and places faith on an object's authenticity, when it's irrelevant.   

Interesting though, finding words after it's been looked at already so closely.

Montana...do you know much about carbon dating?  A question I would like to ask of someone who does....please.  This shroud appears to be real to me.  It had pollens that were present in the day and time of Jesus.  It was woven in the same manner as done in Jesus time....It was caught in a fire if I remember right and it was mended by the nuns from the church...fire produces carbon...could it also alter the carbon dating?  The question I would like to ask is: Could the test they use for carbon dating give a false date or date the object to the date of the fire?  Any input would be appreciated.

Don't get me wrong... I think the whole shroud thing is a fantastic mystery! I mean - what if?

As for carbon dating... it's getting us to an era (middle ages), not a year.  Also, though it may be from the "era" the cloth might not be the "shroud" - pollens and all it may be from Jesus' time.  

It appears to be real to me too - but no matter because it has no effect on my belief that Jesus was real, shroud or not.  That's all.

I did reread the article and see it mentions the "words" more than I thought - having skimmed it the first time.

Again, real or not, it's only an interesting relic to me.  It's not an indicator of His actual life or death.

Maybe I'm just rambling nonsensical crap.      

Cappy's post was good stuff.

It's an interestin subject and I've followed it for years.  Doesn't really matter one way or another.  I reckon when Jesus comes back if I run up to him sayin 'Looky here, I got your burial shroud and look at this cross I'm wearin'!  'member that?'  Probably won't go over real well, all those relics relatin to his death, and not much about his life.  I don't intend to offend either, just what the voices told me to say.

And I now have info from Plehbah that the Shroud of Turin is KGC related.

Out of curiosity how many of you believe the Bible is infallible?

I'm not posting this to be confrontational...just kinda curious, that's all.

Out of curiosity how many of you believe the Bible is infallible?

I'm not posting this to be confrontational...just kinda curious, that's all.

I guess I will step out in faith first...I believe that the Bible is inspired by the word of God...It was written by man...I believe that some of the books may have been lost or left out.  I believe so much of the Bible is true that it can actually find historical places that have long been forgotten...

I'll sign up as a believer.  I've observed too many miracles in my lifetime to believe in random chance bringing about what we see in front of us each day.   Sorry I don't know my Bible well enough to confirm that I know and believe it all.  I am a late convert and still in a period of heavy learning, but agree with Tee that it is the inspired Word, documented or written by men.

To directly answer you question, I beleive the Word of God is infallible and continues to exert it's power today, in every facet of our lives.   Because the Bible was written by men, I will not subscibe to it as an infallible document and have no way of knowing or determining whether it is complete.  

As Tee mentioned, there are cases where the detail in the bible has led to archeological discoveries that people like us had implied to be fictitious, but were proven to be true.  Funny, I'm struggling with whether to capitalize the word Bible or leave it in lower case.  Odd, for me at least.  

There are many mysteries on our planet, and from having read some of your prior posts, Vibes, I make the assumption that you have endeavored to learn about many of these oddities.   I also think you have a great deal of discernment regarding spiritual vs physical things.   Do you feel free enough to share your regard of the Bible or bible?  

Be blessed, whether you respond or not!

BTW, how's the new ride?

Bible should be capitalized as it is referring to the title of a book. (All book titles should be capitalized)
Holy Bible is more proper. But most just shorten the title to Bible when referring to the book.

To answer Vibes question, I believe that the Holy Bible contains the infallible Word of God.


GG~

I believe with all that is in me that **God's Word is infallible. It will be debated & hated for the rest of the time we've been given on this earth... but Truth does not, and will not change, for finite minds and unbelieving hearts. All I can say is, there is a deep void within each of us that will never be able to be filled by anything this earth has to offer us. Whether we choose to believe it or not, it really is a void that only God, through Jesus, can fill.

Bran <><

**That is to say, the original Greek & Hebrew manuscripts... though I still believe God is capable of speaking to our hearts through the translations that have kept close enough to those original writings that God breathed into the men who were called by Him to scribe into our history books... His calling for us.

Ok it's a fake. Still doesn't shake my faith in Jesus and what He did for me.
Ok it's the real thing. Still doesn't change anything either.

 Some object made by man, and later found by more men, will never change the way that I believe.

I think the story was trying to prove it is real.

how's your hens?  Ours were down to only 1 per day on eggs...after threatening them with Chicken and dumpling soup...and a light that comes on from 3 AM till 7 AM they are back up to 25-36 per day...amazing what a little light on the subject does....LOL

Yes, man made.

Ok, another question....how many have been to the Holy Land? 

NOT herded thru on a tour bus...but actually walked the Stations of the cross....and truly FELT it happened?

Bible should be capitalized as it is referring to the title of a book. (All book titles should be capitalized)
Holy Bible is more proper. But most just shorten the title to Bible when referring to the book.

Thanks GG, I'll keep that in mind.  BTW, I've heard it said that Bible is an acronym for Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth, and that we're all here for training.   Guess I better go study!

Out of curiosity how many of you believe the Bible is infallible?
I'm not posting this to be confrontational...just kinda curious, that's all.

Any infallibility with the Bible would be due to the 100 theologians working under the thread of death while making their decisions as to which manuscripts to assemble into the end product that King James required.  They were looking for holy stuff that would meet KJ's "wants";  not necessarily God's desires.  They were translating manuscripts written in Greek, Hebrew, and one other language I can't recall and writing those scripts in Old English (some refer to it as Middle English).  Later, that Old English script was translated AGAIN into modern English.  So there you have it.  Many opportunities for wrong translations.

The inspired word of God was written down by the ORIGINAL writers  of those manuscripts;  not KJ's people.  Example:  "Thou shalt not murder" was wrongly translated as "Thou shalt not kill," and remained that way for centuries until the mistake was FINALLY realized in the last 20 years.

The BIBLE was not assembled by God, but by man, or men, under duress.  And it is men who labeled the other manuscripts, excluded from "The Bible", as being banned Books of the Bible.  BOLONIE!!!!  Those books were never part of "The Bible", so they cannot be, correctly called , "Banned Books of the Bible". 

And to this, you can add the folks who delight in misquoting and quoting out of context verses of the Bible to support their own agendas. 

What determines that we can now talk about this on "Everything Else?"
Oh wait a minute, I think I know.

Ok it's a fake. Still doesn't shake my faith in Jesus and what He did for me.
Ok it's the real thing. Still doesn't change anything either.

 Some object made by man, and later found by more men, will never change the way that I believe.

I think the story was trying to prove it is real.

how's your hens?  Ours were down to only 1 per day on eggs...after threatening them with Chicken and dumpling soup...and a light that comes on from 3 AM till 7 AM they are back up to 25-36 per day...amazing what a little light on the subject does....LOL

Yes, man made.

Ok, another question....how many have been to the Holy Land? 

NOT herded thru on a tour bus...but actually walked the Stations of the cross....and truly FELT it happened?

 I for one have never been, and don't need to do so to have "truely felt it happen". I often wondered why it is called the " Holy Land ". The only conclusion that I have come up with is because Jesus walked there. Then if it is because Jesus was there then that would mean that wherever a true christian walks it too would be Holy ground, would it not? If Jesus' spirit resides whithin you then wouldn't it be the same ? Lets see where this one goes !!!

 But again no I haven't been to the Holy Land. But I have been in His presence. I do not need to travel to a foreign land to "feel" His presence.

The written book, the land He stepped on, all of this limited physical place, is where we are now, all with limited inadequicies.(I can't spell, neither can my spell checker). As one lets go of clinging to this stuff, the unseen eternal force, spirit, fills the void, and the need to cling to the physical becomes less. That's why there is such a varing degree of "beliefs" amongst believers. And allowences must be made, in love, for each other as we are in different places in our own relationship with Jesus. No cookie cutter lives with this Saviour! So these physical questions must be asked, examined and struggled to be understood. And then, finally released, and the wonder of His gift embraced!

Ya'll have a wonderful day!
ng

Ok it's a fake. Still doesn't shake my faith in Jesus and what He did for me.
Ok it's the real thing. Still doesn't change anything either.

 Some object made by man, and later found by more men, will never change the way that I believe.

I think the story was trying to prove it is real.

how's your hens?  Ours were down to only 1 per day on eggs...after threatening them with Chicken and dumpling soup...and a light that comes on from 3 AM till 7 AM they are back up to 25-36 per day...amazing what a little light on the subject does....LOL

Yes, man made.

Ok, another question....how many have been to the Holy Land? 

NOT herded thru on a tour bus...but actually walked the Stations of the cross....and truly FELT it happened?

 I for one have never been, and don't need to do so to have "truely felt it happen". I often wondered why it is called the " Holy Land ". The only conclusion that I have come up with is because Jesus walked there. Then if it is because Jesus was there then that would mean that wherever a true christian walks it too would be Holy ground, would it not? If Jesus' spirit resides whithin you then wouldn't it be the same ? Lets see where this one goes !!!

 But again no I haven't been to the Holy Land. But I have been in His presence. I do not need to travel to a foreign land to "feel" His presence.

Very well put....Jesus Holy Land is in each of us and what foot prints we leave behind...

(Having nothing to do with the religious aspect of such things, just on the shroud itself.)

I think the shroud is a fake.

In attempting to reproduce the shroud to test if it could have been "made" later an artist found the only way he get the same type of image was to use a carved wooden mold.

As an example, this is what you get when you wrap a human head: http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/958/punisherheadds9.png

The shroud shows no such deformities, and is instead a "picture" type image of a body.

A true burial shroud would have been wrapped around the body, and therefore would have had deformities in any images due to that wrapping.

(Having nothing to do with the religious aspect of such things, just on the shroud itself.)

I think the shroud is a fake.

In attempting to reproduce the shroud to test if it could have been "made" later an artist found the only way he get the same type of image was to use a carved wooden mold.

As an example, this is what you get when you wrap a human head: http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/958/punisherheadds9.png

The shroud shows no such deformities, and is instead a "picture" type image of a body.

A true burial shroud would have been wrapped around the body, and therefore would have had deformities in any images due to that wrapping.

Assuming the "picture" in the shroud was created naturally instead of supernaturally.

GG~

If it were created supernaturally , then for what purpouse but to convince/ratify us of Jesus.
Therefore the entity who created this would not have made a flawed version, but one that would
have convinced all and sundry.
As the shroud is flawed and not convincing to all, a supernatural(all powerful) entity had no hand
in it.

If it were created supernaturally , then for what purpouse but to convince/ratify us of Jesus.
Therefore the entity who created this would not have made a flawed version, but one that would
have convinced all and sundry.
As the shroud is flawed and not convincing to all, a supernatural(all powerful) entity had no hand
in it.

let us not forget where the little baby Jesus was born....IN A ANIMAL MANGER, not quite the crib of a King.  Let us not forget who he used to get his message across...a murder, someone who could not speak well, a small boy, someone who could not see, a dead person, a bleeding woman, a woman who sinned with many men, an orphan, and many more...If he had made the image perfect there would be those who said "it's too perfect" Had it been too perfect someone would have locked it away so no one would ever know about it.

The question of the shroud being "real" is moot.  It IS real;  the "picture" of the  human that is marked in / on the cloth is real.  Now, the important question is "is that "photo" of Jesus?"   I tend to believe it is NOT a photo  of Jesus.  Even though I would like to think it IS a likeness of Him, I keep thinking of how Jesus would not allow a "likeness" of Himself to be made because He did not want an icon to be worshiped after His ascention.  No likenesses in the form of drawings and sculptures were allowed, so why would He leave His likeness in the shroud?  He certainly could have stopped the energies from forming His image in the cloth. 

I find it interesting that that iconic item is owned and controlled by the "church" that was built on iconic worship.   

If it were created supernaturally , then for what purpouse but to convince/ratify us of Jesus.
Therefore the entity who created this would not have made a flawed version, but one that would
have convinced all and sundry.
As the shroud is flawed and not convincing to all, a supernatural(all powerful) entity had no hand
in it.

let us not forget where the little baby Jesus was born....IN A ANIMAL MANGER, not quite the crib of a King.  Let us not forget who he used to get his message across...a murder, someone who could not speak well, a small boy, someone who could not see, a dead person, a bleeding woman, a woman who sinned with many men, an orphan, and many more...If he had made the image perfect there would be those who said "it's too perfect" Had it been too perfect someone would have locked it away so no one would ever know about it.

Do some research, have an open mind....dive deep into Biblical astronomy/astrology and get to the root of all of this.  Oh, and perhaps delve into the Sinai Bible, the oldest known religious codex in existence.  If you would compare that book to the current King James Bible version you'd discover 14,800 discrepancies. 
*Perhaps* it IS the Sun of God and not the "son" of god and Da Vinci was correct in his interpretation when he painted the Last Supper?

Yeah, I like to compare the physical to the spiritual-- or-- at least challenge the "norm."  Why not?  what cha got to lose?

Whether or not the shroud is a man made hoax or created by other means, it is still invaluable as a conversation piece as evidenced by this thread.

Of course we have all heard of, and perhaps even seen, photos of sudden and unexplained apparitions of the Virgin Mary that have been documented and witnessed throughout the world.

Some believe and others scoff, and so it is with anything that is not fully comprehended or understood.  

GG~

Whether or not the shroud is a man made hoax or created by other means, it is still invaluable as a conversation piece as evidenced by this thread.

Of course we have all heard of, and perhaps even seen, photos of sudden and unexplained apparitions of the Virgin Mary that have been documented and witnessed throughout the world.

Some believe and others scoff, and so it is with anything that is not fully comprehended or understood.  

GG~

I don't know of any modern unexplained phenomena relating to weeping statues and the like.
I stress modern as modern science and charlatan busters have exposed these as trickery to snare
more followers.
The whole tone of GG's post is portraying factual events.i.e.
"WE have all heard of" , "Documented and Witnessed" , "THROUGHOUT the world"
But nothing could be further from the truth.

I don't know of any modern unexplained phenomena relating to weeping statues and the like.
I stress modern as modern science and charlatan busters have exposed these as trickery to snare
more followers.
The whole tone of GG's post is portraying factual events.i.e.
"WE have all heard of" , "Documented and Witnessed" , "THROUGHOUT the world"
But nothing could be further from the truth.

A simple search on google should be enough to clear up any misconceptions.
here is a starter. http://www.google.com/search?q=virgin+mary+apparitions&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&tbo=p&tbs=tl:1&num=100&ei=BY0MS6mjGobZlAeSqLCgBA&oi=timeline_navigation_bar&ct=timeline-navbar&cd=3&ved=0CBkQywEoBA

I did not mean to unduly influence anyone, only trying to prove the point that: "Some believe and others scoff, and so it is with anything that is not fully comprehended or understood."  I believe you proved that point quite nicely.

GG~

From GG's list we have words from a common sense Pope/Man.
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/its-a--miracle-oh-no-1605256.html

Reading between the lines it's an acknowledgement of past and present trickery
and delusion was involved.

From GG's list we have words from a common sense Pope/Man.
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/its-a--miracle-oh-no-1605256.html

Reading between the lines it's an acknowledgement of past and present trickery
and delusion was involved.

Reading the whole article you cited and not just skimming will reveal the reason for the official denouncing of some of the sightings when they are contradictory to the church. Typical and also serves to prove my point.

I agree with you that all is not as it seems.

GG~

It seems that no matter how many times that it is proved to be a 14th century piece of work, those that want to believe it is actually the shroud of Jesus will refuse to believe evidence. If it was produced supernaturally, there were be no way to detect that through scientific methods...of course, this provides a very convenient out for those who wish for it to be real.

I've seen and read a lot about the Shroud.  Fascinating topic, no doubt, a real conversation item.  The one thing that's always bothered me about it is this:

If the shroud is real, and came to be as has been described, then why aren't there other burial shrouds out there with similar markings?  This was a fairly common practice in those days, surely someone at some point in history retrieved the shroud a loved one was buried in for a keepsake.  Where are the others?  On the other hand, if it was created by man, then it would stand to reason that there would only be the one, as there's be no interest in a dirty old sheet from the grave of a common man.

I've seen and read a lot about the Shroud.  Fascinating topic, no doubt, a real conversation item.  The one thing that's always bothered me about it is this:

If the shroud is real, and came to be as has been described, then why aren't there other burial shrouds out there with similar markings?  This was a fairly common practice in those days, surely someone at some point in history retrieved the shroud a loved one was buried in for a keepsake.  Where are the others?  On the other hand, if it was created by man, then it would stand to reason that there would only be the one, as there's be no interest in a dirty old sheet from the grave of a common man.

The thought is that the image was created, similar to a photograph, at the moment of Resurrection by the Power of God. Not everyone has been resurrected in that way. I can't say if the shroud is authentic or not, but that's what some believe.

I've seen and read a lot about the Shroud.  Fascinating topic, no doubt, a real conversation item.  The one thing that's always bothered me about it is this:

If the shroud is real, and came to be as has been described, then why aren't there other burial shrouds out there with similar markings?  This was a fairly common practice in those days, surely someone at some point in history retrieved the shroud a loved one was buried in for a keepsake.  Where are the others?  On the other hand, if it was created by man, then it would stand to reason that there would only be the one, as there's be no interest in a dirty old sheet from the grave of a common man.

The thought is that the image was created, similar to a photograph, at the moment of Resurrection by the Power of God. Not everyone has been resurrected in that way. I can't say if the shroud is authentic or not, but that's what some believe.

Oh, okay.  I guess I've seen different stories as to how the image was created, I didn't realize that was one of the theories.  Thanks!

Then why would the linen of the shroud be congruent with similiar cloth made in the fourteenth century, rather than around the time which Christ would have lived? These are simple questions that are brushed aside.

Then why would the linen of the shroud be congruent with similiar cloth made in the fourteenth century, rather than around the time which Christ would have lived? These are simple questions that are brushed aside.

Those original results have been called into question.
http://www.factsplusfacts.com/
Also most experts agree that the cloth's weave is  from Christ's era.

But even if Christ himself appeared and said it was real, plenty would still doubt it. That is the nature of skepticism. They didn't believe in him then, and they wouldn't believe now, that has not changed.

GG~

Interesting, but it still shows the cloth to be aged about seven hundred years AFTER the time when it would have to be in order to be the shroud of Christ.

Interesting, but it still shows the cloth to be aged about seven hundred years AFTER the time when it would have to be in order to be the shroud of Christ.

The shroud only has to be 1,976 years old to be of the right age.
I am not saying it is authentic, just that the jury is still out.

GG~

It is not a jury, it is a differing of opinion between different scientists, both of whom seem to agree that the shroud is still post dated to the time of christ.

It is not a jury, it is a differing of opinion between different scientists, both of whom seem to agree that the shroud is still post dated to the time of christ.

Yes and we all know that scientists are infallible.  

Did you read this from the link? http://www.factsplusfacts.com/

At about the same time, Philip Ball, who had been the Senior Editor for Physical Sciences of the Nature Journal of Science when Nature published the results of the 1988 carbon 14 dating of the Shroud, discussed the new studies that challenged those tests, in the journal's online edition. He paraphrased Rogers: "It is, [Rogers] says, between 1300 and 2000 years old. Let's call it somewhere around the middle of that range, which puts the age at about 2,000 years. Which can mean only one thing . . ."


It only has to be 1,976 years old to fit the right age.

GG~

Science has a better track record of admitting when it was mistaken than does religion.

Science has a better track record of admitting when it was mistaken than does religion.

I agree, and this may be another of those times for science.
Even still, I am not totally convinced of it's authenticity. Only of the possibility.

GG~

Dr. Frale told “La Repubblica” that Jewish burial practices at the time of the Roman occupation of Jerusalem mandated that a body buried after execution of a death sentence had be in a common grave and could only be returned to the family after a year had passed. Therefore, a death certificate was glued to the burial shroud, usually on the cloth near the face, so that the body could be easily identified.

To read the entire article:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=17822

Dr. Frale told “La Repubblica” that Jewish burial practices at the time of the Roman occupation of Jerusalem mandated that a body buried after execution of a death sentence had be in a common grave and could only be returned to the family after a year had passed. Therefore, a death certificate was glued to the burial shroud, usually on the cloth near the face, so that the body could be easily identified.

To read the entire article:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=17822

Thank you for the link Vibes!

My question is why is the person on the shroud more characteristic of an Anglo man?

My question is why is the person on the shroud more characteristic of an Anglo man?

Good point he kinda looks Norse to me.

GG~

My question is why is the person on the shroud more characteristic of an Anglo man?

Good point he kinda looks Norse to me.

GG~

I didn't encounter many blue-eyed blondes while walking the steets of the Holy Land. 

My question is why is the person on the shroud more characteristic of an Anglo man?

Good point he kinda looks Norse to me.

GG~

I didn't encounter many blue-eyed blondes while walking the steets of the Holy Land. 

the shroud bears the nose and eyes of a typical Jewish person on that era....here are some historic to recent depictions.  As for the Blue eyes, or blond hair...I can not tell that from the picture of the shroud.

My question is why is the person on the shroud more characteristic of an Anglo man?

Good point he kinda looks Norse to me.

GG~

I didn't encounter many blue-eyed blondes while walking the steets of the Holy Land. 

the shroud bears the nose and eyes of a typical Jewish person on that era....here are some historic to recent depictions.  As for the Blue eyes, or blond hair...I can not tell that from the picture of the shroud.

I've seen numerous investigative shows and papers written about the accuracy of the shroud, and what stands out to me is my question as stated above.  Several independent forensic reconstruction experts have reconstructed the facial features from skulls found from that time period, and there is barely any resemblence to what the shroud shows.  The shroud's face is too anglo and long (to me),  and just doesn't fit into what people were finding based on established science

My question is why is the person on the shroud more characteristic of an Anglo man?

Good point he kinda looks Norse to me.

GG~

I didn't encounter many blue-eyed blondes while walking the steets of the Holy Land. 

the shroud bears the nose and eyes of a typical Jewish person on that era....here are some historic to recent depictions.  As for the Blue eyes, or blond hair...I can not tell that from the picture of the shroud.

I've seen numerous investigative shows and papers written about the accuracy of the shroud, and what stands out to me is my question as stated above.  Several independent forensic reconstruction experts have reconstructed the facial features from skulls found from that time period, and there is barely any resemblence to what the shroud shows.  The shroud's face is too anglo and long (to me),  and just doesn't fit into what people were finding based on established science

Cool...everyone's thoughts count!

It would fit a 14th century artists eurocentric views of what Jesus would have looked like. Another issue with the carbon dating of the shroud is that the Church refuses to allow many sorts of testing to be done on it, which limits what science can really do. People really hate it when you disect their sacred cows.

The Shroud does not matter to me. My faith is not based on any relic. I am a Christian because of I TRY and follow Christ and his disciples teachings. I respect the different Churches and their opinions on how Christ intended his teachings to be followed. This being said man controls these Churches and my faith is not in man but something much higher. I wonder if anyone has heard of the Berbers? These are an Anglo, blue eyed , blonde(not all of them) people who have been in North Africa for over 4000 years. Could Christ have been Anglo? I think so. He most likey was not, but I think it is possible. Personally I really don't care, but I do believe it is possible Jesus was Anglo, and therefore the Shroud being authentic is possible. Please note I did not say probible.
The truth is the authenticity of the Shroud does not effect my faith in God and Christ at the slightest.

I respect that. I was raised Catholic, so I understand a bit about how people feel about relics. When I was in the Artillery, my grandmother got me a St. Barbara's medalion to take with me to the field.

I respect that. I was raised Catholic, so I understand a bit about how people feel about relics. When I was in the Artillery, my grandmother got me a St. Barbara's medalion to take with me to the field.

I experienced a private meditated session that included a Catholic priest *and* a crystal skull, just the 3 of us in prayer/meditation/observation. 

Isn't that kinda silly?  Shoot, I even LICKED the crystal skull.  Why not?  I couldn't shake his hand.

ALL our ancestral peeps were pagan...yes?  If ya doubt it....look to Ezekiel...he'll lead the way:)

I respect that. I was raised Catholic, so I understand a bit about how people feel about relics. When I was in the Artillery, my grandmother got me a St. Barbara's medalion to take with me to the field.

I experienced a private meditated session that included a Catholic priest *and* a crystal skull, just the 3 of us in prayer/meditation/observation. 

Isn't that kinda silly?  Shoot, I even LICKED the crystal skull.  Why not?  I couldn't shake his hand.

ALL our ancestral peeps were pagan...yes?  If ya doubt it....look to Ezekiel...he'll lead the way:)

The catholic priest had you lick his crystal skull....why?  I'm almost afraid to read the answer.

I respect that. I was raised Catholic, so I understand a bit about how people feel about relics. When I was in the Artillery, my grandmother got me a St. Barbara's medalion to take with me to the field.

I experienced a private meditated session that included a Catholic priest *and* a crystal skull, just the 3 of us in prayer/meditation/observation. 

Isn't that kinda silly?  Shoot, I even LICKED the crystal skull.  Why not?  I couldn't shake his hand.

ALL our ancestral peeps were pagan...yes?  If ya doubt it....look to Ezekiel...he'll lead the way:)

The catholic priest had you lick his crystal skull....why?  I'm almost afraid to read the answer.

Duh Mrs T. This is a quite obvious answer!! Vibes wanted to know what it tasted like!!!!!! 

I respect that. I was raised Catholic, so I understand a bit about how people feel about relics. When I was in the Artillery, my grandmother got me a St. Barbara's medalion to take with me to the field.

I experienced a private meditated session that included a Catholic priest *and* a crystal skull, just the 3 of us in prayer/meditation/observation. 

Isn't that kinda silly?  Shoot, I even LICKED the crystal skull.  Why not?  I couldn't shake his hand.

ALL our ancestral peeps were pagan...yes?  If ya doubt it....look to Ezekiel...he'll lead the way:)

The catholic priest had you lick his crystal skull....why?  I'm almost afraid to read the answer.

Duh Mrs T. This is a quite obvious answer!! Vibes wanted to know what it tasted like!!!!!! 

LOL.....somethings you just don't put in your mouth.......oh no that could be a heck of a joke!!!!!  mind just went in gutter...please forgive me....

Dear group;
First, we need to clear up a few misconceptions regarding the Shroud of Turin. The Roman Catholic Church has never proclaimed the Shroud to be anything more than a cloth which may, or MAY NOT, have been the burial cloth of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Period. The fact of the matter is that nobody knows for certain and thus it cannot be proven with any degree of certainty that the shroud is real. Only the opposite argument can possibly be applicable at this time, that being that it can be proven conclusively that the shroud is a forgery.

Thus far, neither of these events have occurred. We must take into consideration the time frame when the Shroud first appeared in Europe. it happened during a time when religious artifact forgeries were at an all-time high and there existed literally thousands of false religious relics. The Roman Catholic Church was not naive and most of the Vatican assumed the Shroud to be a forgery. A very cleverly produced forgery, but a forgery nonetheless.

It has only been within the last 200 years that people began to seek verification that the Shroud was in a fact a forgery. There exists references to the Shroud in the Hungarian tome, the Codex Pray, written in 1192 AD, which describes the Shroud of Turin in detail, including the L shaped burn markings. Also, there are references to the Shroud in an even earlier context, the Image of Edessa. The image was first recorded in history in the Sixth century AD. Supposedly, it resided in Constaninople until the city was razed and sacked during the 4th Crusade in 1204 AD by Christian Crusaders. The image was then sent to Paris where it remained until the French Revolution. Many people think that the Shroud of Turin may have been the Image of Edessa and there exists some evidence which supports this theory.

We do know that the cloth is of a type typically found in the Middle East during the time of Jesus and it is of the correct material and weave and more importantly, the dimensions of the cloth itself. We also know that the blood stains on the cloths are consistent with the wounds of Jesus Christ that were inflicted upon His body immediately prior to, and during, His cruxificion. Incredibly enough, one can even see the faint outlines of bloodstains upon the back side of the image, and also about the trunk and legs which are consistent which the scourge markings made whilst Jesus was scrouged with a Roman flagrum. Also, the swelling about the face offers clues that the person was beaten severely before death.

The one thing which baffles everyone is the fact that nobody knows how such a relic could have possibly been forged, if it is in fact an actual forgery and not the real shroud. Image analysts are confounded because the negative image on the shroud has the highly unusual property of decoding itself into a 3D image of the person depicted on the shroud, with the darker areas being the ones closest to the figure and the lighter portions being further away. In other words, it's as if the figure which was wrapped inside of the shroud somehow *burned* His image onto the cloth of the shroud itself.

To date, no one has been able to successfully replicate this phenomenom. Granted, there are techniques which can duplicate the process to a small decree but they cannot duplicate the bloodstain marks of the figure in question. In the preceeding centuries, t seems that all efforts to debunk the Shroud of Turin have only served to reinforce it's authenticity. It's truly one of the great mysteries of our time.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Thank you Lamar...my mind has turned to mush....I should have asked you to weigh in on this days ago...I always trust you expertise and no BS approach to historical fact...thank you as always my friend..  tee.

Dear texastee2007;
It's always a pleasure, my friend. On another note related to the Shroud of Turin, when the Shroud was first known to have been placed on display, it was assumed with almost certainty to have been a forgery, however as the centuries wore on the perceptions changed, which is the polar opposite of of most forgeries. Over the span of 600 years, the Shroud of Turin has gone from being "very probably a masterful forgery" to "quite possibly the burial shroud of Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Savior".
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear texastee2007;
It's always a pleasure, my friend. On another note related to the Shroud of Turin, when the Shroud was first known to have been placed on display, it was assumed with almost certainty to have been a forgery, however as the centuries wore on the perceptions changed, which is the polar opposite of of most forgeries. Over the span of 600 years, the Shroud of Turin has gone from being "very probably a masterful forgery" to "quite possibly the burial shroud of Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Savior".
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar....correct me if I am wrong...wasn't it just a it just a bizarre happening that the image was even founds in first place?  Didn't someone take a picture of the cloth and find the image on their negatives?  Hasn't the image appeared slowly and is now disappearing slowly as well?   Wouldn't it be just like God to leave a picture of His Son at the very moment of His Resurrection?  It doesn't matter one way or the other to me...I shall always believe in God and Jesus..I have seen too many things in my almost 53 years to make me believe....He has held my hand since I was little, He has heard my cry for mercy and answered me.  Thank you as always Lamar...I know you will give us a unbiased and truthful response.

People claim to believe in this or that religion and do their best to live by it.  But they still crave some sort of an historical relic that will provide a verification of their beliefs.  This is because they don't really have faith, even faith the size of a mustard seed.  It sounds simple, to simply believe in something, but it is a very hard and complex thing to do properly, since we are all human.  I hope I'm here on the day that this Jesus returns, and get to see some of y'all wave those cross necklaces at Him, and it will be cool to hear him say, "Move that jewelry so I can look into your heart".

People claim to believe in this or that religion and do their best to live by it.  But they still crave some sort of an historical relic that will provide a verification of their beliefs.  This is because they don't really have faith, even faith the size of a mustard seed.  It sounds simple, to simply believe in something, but it is a very hard and complex thing to do properly, since we are all human.  I hope I'm here on the day that this Jesus returns, and get to see some of y'all wave those cross necklaces at Him, and it will be cool to hear him say, "Move that jewelry so I can look into your heart".

Not all folks are looking for a relic...but it would be cool if one had been left behind...not something to worship but just to be....like the Bible...I do not worship the Bible but the words left behind to teach me something that I may have never been taught otherwise....I wear a cross that Mr. tee placed on my neck...not because I worship it....but because he loved me and knew how much more He loved me.  My husband built this cross in the picture several weeks after he was baptised.  The town had a clean up and someone tossed out an Aluminum Ibeam that was 22' long...we placed it on our little hill and light it at night with a solar light...the next day it had a dove on it and then the rainbow happened...it was if God was smiling at my husband for remembering His Son.  People from around the world write to us and say how much comfort they get from seeing it's image and reminding them that God is always there...smiling at us when we take the time to remember Him. 

People claim to believe in this or that religion and do their best to live by it.  But they still crave some sort of an historical relic that will provide a verification of their beliefs.  This is because they don't really have faith, even faith the size of a mustard seed.  It sounds simple, to simply believe in something, but it is a very hard and complex thing to do properly, since we are all human.  I hope I'm here on the day that this Jesus returns, and get to see some of y'all wave those cross necklaces at Him, and it will be cool to hear him say, "Move that jewelry so I can look into your heart".

 I just love this !!!! No really, I do !!! You are absolutely correct in what you just said !!! People do want something a little more tangible to "secure" thier faith. They just can't take that God sent His son to die for our sins, and simply believe. It's like it is so simple it's complicated.

 When Jesus was talking to His disciples He told them how much greater will thier faith ( us in the present ) be that have not seen yet still believe. The disciples walked with this man, and yet our faith is supposed to be greater than that of thiers. Yea God is gonna break down all of the unimportant materialistic stuff, like those cross necklaces you mentioned, all the way to the church it's self. He is going to shake the church. Those that are strong in thier faith will remain strong. Those that want to cling to material things, or even religion, over Christ will fall.

 Anyway, just wanted to say that was a great post !!!!

Ah well, I'll back off and clear the field on this one.  Y'all keep the crosses and the fish symbols on the bumpers of Subaru Outbacks.  Keep the 'Honk if you love Jesus' bumper stickers and when I do, y'all flip me off.  You may liken all those things to 'post-it' notes, which we use as reminders.  And some of y'all do need to be reminded.

Ah well, I'll back off and clear the field on this one.  Y'all keep the crosses and the fish symbols on the bumpers of Subaru Outbacks.  Keep the 'Honk if you love Jesus' bumper stickers and when I do, y'all flip me off.  You may liken all those things to 'post-it' notes, which we use as reminders.  And some of y'all do need to be reminded.

just a little curious...does your wife have a cross neckless on in your avatar or own one?  Do you own a Bible?  Or do you go to a church that has a cross on it?  just curious because you seem so against them.

According to my research the Shroud of Turin is NOT the burial cloth of Jesus.  It was however the burial shroud of the Head Templar Jacques Molay whom was tortured and executed in 1307.  Since the religious leaders of that day believed Jacques was mocking Christianity, they chose to torture him and execute him in  the same manner as they had believed Jesus had been.

Though, he survived their torture and attempted execution but,  he did die at the home of a family member in  France a few weeks after the assault.  The sheets which he had laid on were obviously covered with his blood and body fluids that spilled from him while he was dying.  However, for some mysterious reason the sheets were  lost  forever in the annuls of history. 

On October 13, 1989 the Vatican  turn over sheets that were accidently found among the catacombs after a horrific fire.  It was wierd that the sheets were turned over on that date because it was the very anniversary of Molay's death.  Anyway, the sheets were carbon dated but, it was said to be inaccurate because they too substained damage from the fire.  The carbon dating intially indicated that they Shroud was only around 900 years old give or take a hundred years or so.

The Shroud of Turin showed the image of a person whom looked like Jesus but, the reason it had not been noticed sooner was because it could not be seen with the naked eye.  It was seen only in photographic images.  The image was of a rather tall man with long hair and a beard.  A large nose and scars around the forehead that may have been from a crown of thorns.

Pontius Pilate the Roman governor in the region during Jesus's lifetime had heard that Jesus was protesting Rome and was a known treaspasser of the ruins of Solomon's Temple.  It was enough for him to have a wanted poster made in hope of someone turning him in for a reward.  The wanted poster described him as being unusually short with a hump on his back.  He walked with a limp.  His facial features were not comely or handsome but, rugged and worn (as you would expect a carpenter to be).  He was described as having an unusually large nose as well.  This description of Jesus did not match the facial or body type of the one found on the Shroud of Turin.

With all of that, It is believed that the Shroud of Turin is not the burial cloth of Jesus but, possibly the bedsheet of a dying Templar martyr instead.  How they wound up at the Vatican is a mystery too but, part of the Templars job in those days was to bring what they thought was holy to the Vatican for safe keeping.  A relic possibly of their leaders death but, not a relic of Jesus's.

Ernest

 

Ernest

Could you share your source of research that revealed the "wanted poster" of Jesus?

Oh I just saw that Texastee, so I'll respond.  No my wife does not have a cross necklace on nor does she own one.  Surprising, as she is Hispanic, but not Catholic.  Neither are her kids.  Many hispanics are leaving the Catholic Church as they learn the history of the Church in Mexico.  My wife and her family are more Indian than Spanish anyway.  I consider the cross symbol a graven image and a constant reminder of the murder of Jesus.  I'd rather remember his life, cause he did some cool things.  I have nothing whatsoever against the Bible, and I have copies in 3 different languages.  The books of the Apocraphy (I don't know about the spelling there) are pretty cool and I got those too.  I got nothin against churches either.  I don't go.  At all.  The church I went to when I was growin up actually preached a sermon against me in 1974 sayin I was an abomination in the sight of the Lord because I had long hair.  I could have got over that, but then the Baptist Church told me I was goin straight to hell because my wife divorced me.  There's some good folks and some good churches out there, I imagine.  I hope my treatment of other folks and the example I try to set will speak loud enough that I don't have to resort to wavin a cross around or puttin the Shroud of Turin on display or puttin a bumper sticker on my truck, to convince other folks of what I'm tryin to convince myself I believe in.  Sorry to preach, and sorry for the long post.  Adios.

Oh I just saw that Texastee, so I'll respond.  No my wife does not have a cross necklace on nor does she own one.  Surprising, as she is Hispanic, but not Catholic.  Neither are her kids.  Many hispanics are leaving the Catholic Church as they learn the history of the Church in Mexico.  My wife and her family are more Indian than Spanish anyway.  I consider the cross symbol a graven image and a constant reminder of the murder of Jesus.  I'd rather remember his life, cause he did some cool things.  I have nothing whatsoever against the Bible, and I have copies in 3 different languages.  The books of the Apocraphy (I don't know about the spelling there) are pretty cool and I got those too.  I got nothin against churches either.  I don't go.  At all.  The church I went to when I was growin up actually preached a sermon against me in 1974 sayin I was an abomination in the sight of the Lord because I had long hair.  I could have got over that, but then the Baptist Church told me I was goin straight to hell because my wife divorced me.  There's some good folks and some good churches out there, I imagine.  I hope my treatment of other folks and the example I try to set will speak loud enough that I don't have to resort to wavin a cross around or puttin the Shroud of Turin on display or puttin a bumper sticker on my truck, to convince other folks of what I'm tryin to convince myself I believe in.  Sorry to preach, and sorry for the long post.  Adios.

I can respect that...and you might be surprised how many preachers are going to end up down south because they do not teach the word...but judge others..  Here is what the scripture says about divorce...
Jeremiah 3:6-11
6 During the reign of King Josiah, the Lord said to me, "Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there. 7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. 8 I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries.

Thank you for your response.

Could you share your source of research that revealed the "wanted poster" of Jesus?

Do a "google" for The Hirum Key.  It is a book that I read seveal years ago.  It explains basically the origins of the Freemasons but, covers a lot of very interesting information about Jesus as well.

Ernest

http://news.discovery.com/archaeology/jesus-era-burial-shroud-casts-doubt-on-turin-shroud.html

I think this pretty much seals the Turin shroud as a medieval hoax.

http://news.discovery.com/archaeology/jesus-era-burial-shroud-casts-doubt-on-turin-shroud.html

I think this pretty much seals the Turin shroud as a medieval hoax.

I think not!  

Just because the Turin shroud has a different weave or length doesn't conclusively make it from medieval times. The article referred to the 1988 carbon dating tests for their claim that the Turin shroud was dated from medieval times, and those results have recently been called into question. I believe that it is still a mystery until proven with out a doubt one way or the other.

The article said "'Jesus-Era' Burial Cloth Casts Doubt on Turin Shroud".  Doubt is not Proof!
Therefore not "sealed as a hoax"

Respectfully,
GG~

http://news.discovery.com/archaeology/jesus-era-burial-shroud-casts-doubt-on-turin-shroud.html

I think this pretty much seals the Turin shroud as a medieval hoax.

I think not!  

Just because the Turin shroud has a different weave or length doesn't conclusively make it from medieval times. The article referred to the 1988 carbon dating tests for their claim that the Turin shroud was dated from medieval times, and those results have recently been called into question. I believe that it is still a mystery until proven with out a doubt one way or the other.

The article said "'Jesus-Era' Burial Cloth Casts Doubt on Turin Shroud".  Doubt is not Proof!
Therefore not "sealed as a hoax"

Respectfully,
GG~

if Doubt IS PROOF, then the devil has done his job....I Choose Not To Doubt anything when it comes to the POWER, MIGHT AND MYSTERY OF MY GOD.

Hi, I had a looksee at the letters in question, they were faint and hard to read but I did make out y....o....u..........v......e........b........... .....e.e...............n.....................p... ......u.......................n.................. .....k........................................... .........d![/i][/glow][/color]
Maybe it was "Property of Cairo Hilton Hotel" or something, hey, what do I know? Machine wash warm, lightly iron.