Christmas tree

   Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

   Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

   For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

   They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

   They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good. Jeremiah 10: 1-5

The whole world is goin' to hell now.

The whole world is goin' to hell now.

Don't you believe what I posted Mac. Whatever you do, don't you believe that.
I mean, anybody can claim to be a prophet, right? You just keep going to "church" and speaking of God and his word, and then not TAKING him at his word. No sir, don't you believe it.

Did I mention hell, or is that a judgment call on your part?

Don't even get me started on this one !!! There was a point in my life that I acually took a tree out of my house decorations and all, and tossed it in the garbage. Then for the next 10 years had absolutely no decorations, no tree, no nothing !!!!

 Then it dawned on me. Those folks were worshiping the tree. Yes our christmas tree did come from a pagan worship ritual. Do you not believe that God sometimes takes what satan does and use it for good ? God uses the low points in our lives to His advantage, does He not ?

 I now have a live tree in my home that me and my family went and cut down, and decorated just after we ate turkey on Thanksgiving. We do not worship this tree. I do have one stipulation during Christmas in my home though. Absolutely no santa clause anywhere. There are no gifts under the tree from Santa either. I do not want santa to be the focal point, I want my Lord and Saviour Jesus to be.

Don't even get me started on this one !!! There was a point in my life that I acually took a tree out of my house decorations and all, and tossed it in the garbage. Then for the next 10 years had absolutely no decorations, no tree, no nothing !!!!

 Then it dawned on me. Those folks were worshiping the tree. Yes our christmas tree did come from a pagan worship ritual. Do you not believe that God sometimes takes what satan does and use it for good ? God uses the low points in our lives to His advantage, does He not ?

 I now have a live tree in my home that me and my family went and cut down, and decorated just after we ate turkey on Thanksgiving. We do not worship this tree. I do have one stipulation during Christmas in my home though. Absolutely no santa clause anywhere. There are no gifts under the tree from Santa either. I do not want santa to be the focal point, I want my Lord and Saviour Jesus to be.

You are being tricked. You openly acknowledge that Christmas trees come from a pagan worship ritual, and you think GOD USES THAT?? Why couldn't God use Santa Clause as well? You are free to believe what you WANT to believe.
If the world started a ritual of setting up a golden calf in celebration of the Resurrection, would you do it?

You don't need to worry about if the WHOLE WORLD is going to hell, but the fact that YOU will stand before him and give account.

You are being tricked. You openly acknowledge that Christmas trees come from a pagan worship ritual, and you think GOD USES THAT?? Why couldn't God use Santa Clause as well? You are free to believe what you WANT to believe.
If the world started a ritual of setting up a golden calf in celebration of the Resurrection, would you do it?

You don't need to worry about if the WHOLE WORLD is going to hell, but the fact that YOU will stand before him and give account.

 Ok, so I'm goin' to hell then.

Lots of Christmas traditions have pagan origins. Christmas trees, feasts, gift giving, ring bells, lighting candles, singing carols, Yule logs, mistletoe, holly, and wreaths are all paganistic. Even the very date of Christmas was specifically chosen for pagan reasons.

Christmas is what you make of it. If you choose to celebrate the birth of Jesus, does it really matter whether he was actually born on that date? If you choose to give gifts to friends and family, or sit down to a nice Christmas dinner with same, or put up some festive decorations, is Jesus going to be mad at you?

If you want to be "Puritan" about Christmas, then you should not celebrate it at all, even for the birth of Jesus, since it wasn't. After all, New England Puritans banned Christmas altogether.

- Carl

P.S.-- Easter also has pagan origins.

Lots of Christmas traditions have pagan origins. Christmas trees, feasts, gift giving, ring bells, lighting candles, singing carols, Yule logs, mistletoe, holly, and wreaths are all paganistic. Even the very date of Christmas was specifically chosen for pagan reasons.

Christmas is what you make of it. If you choose to celebrate the birth of Jesus, does it really matter whether he was actually born on that date?

Those two paragraphs shouldn't belong to the same writer. An acknowledgement of it all being pagan, yet it's what you make of it? That don't make sense. If it's paganism, you can't make it anything else.

A paganistic celebration is not a true celebration of Christ, whether it's Christmas, Easter, or whatever. The birth of Christ was real, and the Resurrection was real, but neither has anything to do with paganism.

I should get rid of all my cats and dogs, as Egyptians used to worship them too. While I am at it, I need to board up all the windows in my home so that the sun will not come inside, you know the Indians used to have a sun god. Oh and please refain from eating any beef as there are still folks that worship thier cattle, so that would mean we shouldn't bring that into our home either.

I should get rid of all my cats and dogs, as Egyptians used to worship them too. While I am at it, I need to board up all the windows in my home so that the sun will not come inside, you know the Indians used to have a sun god. Oh and please refain from eating any beef as there are still folks that worship thier cattle, so that would mean we shouldn't bring that into our home either.

Yeah, what was Jeremiah thinking when he said that. I guess he didn't think about the dogs and cats and sunshine.

mcgearhead, put up your tree, and do anything else you want to do. It's none of my business, all I was doing was giving the scripture for it. Notice that Jeremiah didn't say you COULDN'T do that. You are a free moral agent, to choose your own way, so you CAN do anything you choose. ANYTHING.

If it's paganism, you can't make it anything else.

Sure, you can make it whatever you want. Just because birthday celebrations have roots in paganism doen't mean we're celebrating paganism when we have a birthday party. It doesn't really matter where the exact origins lie, what matters is how we apply it today.

Lots of our customs & traditions are non-Judeo-Christian in origin. To try and identify and weed out every one of them that are not Biblical in origin is rather extreme IMO. Islam has a term for this -- Sharia Law -- and the most Puritan form of it has become an overwhelmingly oppressive and destructive force.

The birth of Christ was real, and the Resurrection was real, but neither has anything to do with paganism.

Maybe, maybe not. Some of these elements -- virgin birth, gold/frankincense/myrrh, death, descent, 3-day resurrection -- all have close parallels to earlier pagan religions.

- Carl

If it's paganism, you can't make it anything else.

Sure, you can make it whatever you want. Just because birthday celebrations have roots in paganism doen't mean we're celebrating paganism when we have a birthday party. It doesn't really matter where the exact origins lie, what matters is how we apply it today.

So with that reasoning, you'd have to say that, just because we have birthday parties, that doesn't mean we celebrate birthdays. See how silly that is. If it is, it is. If it ain't, it ain't.

The birth of Christ was real, and the Resurrection was real, but neither has anything to do with paganism.

Maybe, maybe not. Some of these elements -- virgin birth, gold/frankincense/myrrh, death, descent, 3-day resurrection -- all have close parallels to earlier pagan religions.

- Carl

There is where you're fatally wrong.

What I'm saying is that you can be a Good Christian and have a birthday party. You can be a Good Christian and have a Christmas tree. These things don't define our morality. Heck, until the Internet came along, hardly anyone knew these things had pagan roots. Probably most still don't.

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What I'm saying is that you can be a Good Christian and have a birthday party. You can be a Good Christian and have a Christmas tree. These things don't define our morality. Heck, until the Internet came along, hardly anyone knew these things had pagan roots. Probably most still don't.

Some of us did. But whether we knew it before, or not, it still WAS.
There was a time you didn't know your wife, but she existed. And she was then who she is now.

If you know Christ said a certain thing, then how can you be Christ like when you go against that? Again, it don't make sinse. Human reasoning and faith are oposites.

The birth of Christ was real, and the Resurrection was real, but neither has anything to do with paganism.

Maybe, maybe not. Some of these elements -- virgin birth, gold/frankincense/myrrh, death, descent, 3-day resurrection -- all have close parallels to earlier pagan religions.

- Carl

There is where you're fatally wrong.

Both of you have a fair understanding, and now I'm going to add my 2 cents worth. Not going to duck either, so let me have it.

The celebration of Christmas preceeds the birth of Jesus by thousands of years. Its origin was not in Bethlehem, in fact it wasn't even started in Israel. Where could I get such an idea? An archaeologist who was also a theologian: Dr. Alexander Hislop.

He wrote a book, based on his study of Babylon (yep, the one in present day Iraq). In his book, "The two Babylons: or, The papal worship proved to be the worship of Nimrod ..." (yes, the Nimrod in the Bible - called a "mighty hunter in opposition to the LORD") he goes into some of the origins of this "Christian" holiday. The book is from 1862, so it isn't modern thinking. You can get a PDF copy to read by clicking HERE.

The book was originally written to show the connections between Babylonian religions and the "worship" of the Pope, but he gave much more information about the origins than just how it mimics the worship of the Pope in the Catholic Church.

In the Hebrew scriptures (the old testament to some) there was mention of Nimrod (also called "Tammuz" in Ezekiel 8:14, and the ancient writers called him Bacchus), Babylon, and its dissolution by GOD with the confusing of languages and the scattering of its residents worldwide. This accounts for the similarities among many "Pagan" religions. It explains why so many ancient cultures have a flood story very similar to the one in the Bible. It also explains why their pagan worship and belief systems have many commonalities. But, let's get back to Christmas, and the Christmas Tree.

Christmas was not mentioned as an observance of Jesus (no birthday parties), his apostles (no Christmas observances), or any of his followers (or professed followers) until the fourth century, about the time of Constantine's conversion to Christianity. His conversion is questionable, because it coincided with his need for warm bodies to protect Rome. One way to do that, he figured, was to take advantage of the growing number of Christians --- none of whom would serve in the Roman military --- by getting the then church to back him.

So, he told of his "vision of the cross" which goes something like this:

According to Constantine, Jesus Christ himself appeared to Constantine while he was asleep, and told him to make a banner bearing this heavenly cross and to carry it at the head of his army, for it was to be a token or sign of victory (The emblem of Tammuz, aka Nimrod, was a "flaming cross"). This he did, and, besides, had the monogram cross painted on the shields of his warriors before the final and decisive battle at the Milvian Bridge near Rome where Maxentius was killed.

Well, long story short, the then Church fell for it and Christians have served in various militaries since then. Along with that though, came the inclusion of many "pagan" rituals and holidays into the Church's worship. They just gave them "Christian" appearances, while changing very little of any of them other than the names of the players.

Now, if Christmas was important, wouldn't Jesus have observed it? Wouldn't there be accounts of gift giving by the apostles? There are none. In fact, in the Bible, there are no birthdays (nope, NOT ONE) ever celebrated by persons who are worshipers of the GOD of the Bible. All birthday celebrations recorded in the Bible - off the top of my head . . . Pharoah's, Herrod's, Belshazzar's (you remember "the writing on the wall") - were by persons in opposition to GOD. Pagans.

Nimrod is the origin of the "Christmas Tree". Besides being a hunter, he was also the leader of Babylon. He was also his Mother's second husband. Nimrod died violently, and his followers considered his violent death a tragedy or calamity, and deified him. After his untimely death, his mother-wife, Semiramis, taught the lie that her husband-son was a spirit god. She claimed a full-grown evergreen tree sprang overnight from a dead tree stump, which symbolized the springing forth to new life of the dead Nimrod. She taught that on the anniversary of his birth, which was December 25, Nimrod would visit the evergreen tree and leave gifts upon it. This "dead tree stump" is where the yule log comes from, but that's a story for another day. You can read about it  around page 140 or 141 in Dr. Hislop's book linked to above. Then read Jeremiah 10:1-5 quoted in the first post.

Thank you Smee. I have posted a link to Hislop's book once or twice on here. But people has to have a desire for truth for it to make sense to them, and that's whats lacking.

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Thank you Smee. I have posted a link to Hislop's book once or twice on here. But people has to have a desire for truth for it to make sense to them, and that's whats lacking.

I don't doubt that most folks on here want to gain knowledge. Likewise, I don't doubt that some here knew the information before anyone posted it here.

Each individual must do what they understand to be right. Don't let me tell you what to do. I have to live by my faith, and you can't live by it and expect approval. It is my faith, I'm the only one who should even want to be judged by it.

It is a decision, a matter of an individual's faith . . . their relationship with their GOD. However, Jesus did say: ". . . the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him" - John 4:22,23

[truth]

Thank you Smee. I have posted a link to Hislop's book once or twice on here. But people has to have a desire for truth for it to make sense to them, and that's whats lacking.

I don't doubt that most folks on here want to gain knowledge. Likewise, I don't doubt that some here knew the information before anyone posted it here.

Each individual must do what they understand to be right. Don't let me tell you what to do. I have to live by my faith, and you can't live by it and expect approval. It is my faith, I'm the only one who should even want to be judged by it.

It is a decision, a matter of an individual's faith . . . their relationship with their GOD. However, Jesus did say: ". . . the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him" - John 4:22,23

But it's not MY faith I'm talking about. It is my faith, but it's not truth because I believe it. And being truth means there is no other truth.

Jesus said, by your TRADITIONS you make the word of God of no effect. No, no one needs to believe because I do, but because it's God's word...the only truth. And an individuals faith must be according to truth.

[TRADITIONS]

But it's not MY faith I'm talking about. It is my faith, but it's not truth because I believe it. And being truth means there is no other truth.

Jesus said, by your TRADITIONS you make the word of God of no effect. No, no one needs to believe because I do, but because it's God's word...the only truth. And an individuals faith must be according to truth.

I understand and believe the things you said previously. However, I probably was unclear in my last post.

A person must take these matters into their heart, pour over them, and decide what is right or wrong. I only share the facts AS I UNDERSTAND THEM.

But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.

People will do what they WANT to do, many times without regard to what they KNOW is or is not true. It is a fact of life in imperfect man.

While many look at this matter of "what is true" as being a simple matter, the scriptures say: "broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it." - Matthew 7:13,14

Was Jesus talking about the broad road as being the road the nations apart from GOD follow? No.

He was talking about our walk in life as a Christian. There is a broad path that many professed Christians follow, accepting all manner of human thinking as being "OK". "Traditions of men" as it is referred to in scripture. It is surely a broad road, and many find it, but its destination is destruction.

Within those professing to follow the Lord, are certain ones who are "cautious as serpents, but innocent as doves." As the Beroeans (see Acts 17), they search to find whether these things they are taught are true. It is a narrow road, the drop offs are deep. It requires a great effort to make the passage, and it is not always pleasant. Yet, the destination is life.

Each one must examine and determine where the narrow road is and how to navigate it. Each of us wagers our souls on our understanding, on what we perceive to be true. The question that then begs to be asked is "How accurate is our understanding?"

Try as you may, and regardless of how noble your intentions, you cannot change anyone's beliefs. They have to want to change or see a need to change based on new knowledge.

Try as you may, and regardless of how noble your intentions, you cannot change anyone's beliefs. They have to want to change or see a need to change based on new knowledge.

All we can do is offer truth, but who God chooses to open their eyes is up to him. 

Dear group;
Actually, decorating Christmas trees is NOT a pagan tradition! The actual practice of decorating Christmas trees can be traced back to 16th century Germany, long after paganism ceased to exist in that region. In fact, the modren day country of Germany was one of the very first regions in Western Europe to convert from paganism to Chrsitianity, with the very last recorded groups of pagans being eliminated by the Tuetonic knights during their crusade into Prussia in 1226 AD, when Konrad I appealed to the Tuetonics to help defend his lands against the Baltic pagans.

Therefore, there is a 400 plus year spread in the elimination of paganism in the region and the rise of Christianity. Please note that Germany as a whole had been Christianized some 600 years prior to 1226 AD., therefore we can positively conclude that there was a hugely Chrsitian majority in German as far back as 800 AD., some 800 plus years before the first Christmas trees were recorded.

Therefore, all of the old pagans traditions would have been long dead by the 16th Century in Germany. As a point of fact, the earliest recorded Christmas tree erected was at the Strasberg Cathedral in 1539 AD and the tradition seemed to have quickly spread throughout Germany and neighboring countries. Also as a point of fact, Martin Luther is the one who is credited with decorating the fir braches which they hung from the rafters of his church, with lights and ornamentation.

The tradition of decorating trees during the Advent season remained strictly pecular to Germany until the 19th century, when huges waves of German immagrants, having settling in the United Stated, brought their Christmas traditions with them. American businessmen, always on the lookout for a way to turn a buck, quickly seized upon the idea of manufacturing glass ornaments and strings of decorations and further promoting Christmas trees as an American tradition.

After electricity came into widespread use throughout America, lighting manufacturers soon began promoting electric Christmas lighting to replace the dangerous and unreliable candles, thus deepening the tradition of the Christmas tree with American traditions. The Christmas tree has come to symbolize a traditional part of the typical home during the Nativity and as such, once the tradition was firmly entrenched in the USA, Christmas trees soon began to appear throughout the rest of the world, even in places where the majority of the people are not Christians.

The claim that Christmas trees had their roots (pun intended) in paganism is often held by modern evangelical preachers and other charismatic types, who are usually very long on wind and opinion and very short on historical facts and accuracy. It's been my personal experience that evangelical preachers have no qualms about bending the facts, or making up their own whenever a particular situation warrants such actions.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Dear smee;
You wrote:
According to Constantine, Jesus Christ himself appeared to Constantine while he was asleep, and told him to make a banner bearing this heavenly cross and to carry it at the head of his army, for it was to be a token or sign of victory (The emblem of Tammuz, aka Nimrod, was a "flaming cross"). This he did, and, besides, had the monogram cross painted on the shields of his warriors before the final and decisive battle at the Milvian Bridge near Rome where Maxentius was killed.

This statement is incorrect, my friend. According to legend, the sign which appeared to the Roman Emperor Constantine I was the Chi-Rho symbol, as depicted in the attached photo below. This symbol is definitely not a cross and it in no way resembles any sort of tree, flaming, decorated or otherwise.


The Chi-Rho symbol depicts the Greek letters Chi and Rho, which are the first two letters in the name, CHRIST, or ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ in Greek. After Constantine I had his vision, he ordered his armies to replace the various symbols on all of their labarums, or banners, with a single Chi-Rho symbol. Constantine I then went on to win a stunning victory and soon thereafter adopted as the motto of his kingdon "In hoc signo vinces" which means "By (this) sign (we shall) conquer."

One may see this quite clearly on coinage minted during the reign of Emperor Constantine I. The coinage depicts the labarum with the Chi-Rho and the shaft of the labarum piercing a serpent, the symbol of Satan and paganism in general, meaning that the Roman Empire conquered the evil of paganism during the reign of Emperor Constantine I, as Emperor Constantine I was the first Christian Roman Emperor.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear group;
In all reality, the modern-day depiction of Santa Claus is not pagan either. It all started with the commerical artist Haddon Sundblom who worked forthe Coca-Cola Bottling Co. Before Haddon Sunblom, Santa Claus was depicted as St. Nicholas of Myra who lived in the 3rd century AD. Because so many miracles have been attiributed to him and his generosity, he is often known as St. Nicholas the Giftgiver or St. Nicholas the Wonderworker.

The Dutch name for St. Nicholas is Sinter Klaas, which has since been Englicized to Santa Claus. Sinter Klaas, now often spelled as a single name Sinterklaas, was a hugely popular saint and very popular winter figure in the Dutch countries of the Netherlands, Belgium, Northern France, Luxomberg, and also He was very popular in Germany, Austria, Poland and other countries in the region.

By the Middle Ages, a feast day was approved by the Vatican and it is held every year on the 6th of December and He is the patron saint of children and sailors. The feast was originally designed as a feast to aid the poor and the tradition was started of putting coins in childrens shoes. This is where the idea of gift giving during the Nativity season began and with the coming of the Protestants in the Netherlands, they sought to abolish the feast as being too Catholic, but it was so popular that it has survived to this day, largely intact,

According to Dutch folklore, Sinterklaas wears a long red cape and white Bishop's robes with a red Bishop's mitre, has a flowing white beard, carries a long golden staff with the tradition shepard's hook, rides a grey horse and has in His other hand a huge book in which He has written the names of all the children of the Netherlands in one of two columns, those who have been good and those who have been bad.

And this is how the tradition of Santa Claus started. It was a very old Roman Catholic celebration which has survived the centuries, from Protestantism to the Reforms and it was not until it reached US shores that St. Nicholas was commericialized, sanitized, de-Christianized, packaged and then sold to on the world marketplace.
Your friend;
LAMAR

I would assume that we agree the Bible should be the authority, not man apart from GOD.

One scripture, outside of the accounts of the birth of Jesus Christ, is all I ask.

Only one, where the birth of the Christ is celebrated or observed.

If you find more, please share, but I only request one.

Thanks.

Dear Smee;
I'm afraid that I do not understand the context of your question, nor the reason for asking it.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear group;
Actually, decorating Christmas trees is NOT a pagan tradition! The actual practice of decorating Christmas trees can be traced back to 16th century Germany, long after paganism ceased to exist in that region. In fact, the modren day country of Germany was one of the very first regions in Western Europe to convert from paganism to Chrsitianity, with the very last recorded groups of pagans being eliminated by the Tuetonic knights during their crusade into Prussia in 1226 AD, when Konrad I appealed to the Tuetonics to help defend his lands against the Baltic pagans.

Now, this was only after the tree was given its "new meaning" by the church. Prior to that, the original tree that supposedly sprung up overnight upon the grave of Nimrod, gave gifts. As per his wife-mother: "She taught that on the anniversary of his birth, which was December 25, Nimrod would visit the evergreen tree and leave gifts upon it."

The old pagan traditions never died. The church "absorbed" them and ignored the scriptural admonition 2 Cor 6:14-16

"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness?"

Effectively asking: "What sharing does TRUTH have with the LIE?", but much more eloquently than I could say it.

"Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be´li·al?"

A false god, likely derived from worship of Tammuz, Bacchus, or Nimrod.

"Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever?"

One who would put tradition over right.

"And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols?"

Again, false gods.

"For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: 'I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people' ".

So since we are a "temple of a living God", we should strive to keep ourselves clean from pagan influences . . . even if our "church" has accepted them.

Now, on your own, read verses 17 and 18.

"Quit touching the unclean thing."

Dear Smee;
I'm afraid that I do not understand the context of your question, nor the reason for asking it.
Your friend;
LAMAR

I was asking for you to show one account in the Holy Scriptures (if you find more, please add them, but I would be satisfied with one) of an observance of the birth of the Christ by Jesus' followers as in a "birthday celebration" "christmas celebration" "exchanging of gifts in remembrance" etc.

Might I also add, it was not the birth that was important, it was the death that makes a difference. Without his death as a sacrifice to cover our sins, his birth would have no value at all.

Dear Smee;
If what you are referring to falls within the realm of Sola Sciptura (by the Scriptures alone) then I am adfraid that you are only getting about half of the picture, if that much. I mean, think about this for just a moment. If the *learned ones* that you listen to are wrong about something as simple as the Chi-Rho and the origins of Christmas trees, then certainly they would be incorrect in their belief of Sola Scriptura as well.

It's a fallacy that the Bible alone is the ONLY source of the will of God and it's something which should be addressed. There is also something known as The Sacred Traditions and these are important as well as the Scriptures. We know that historically the birth dates of all of the most holy Jews were celebrated during the time of Jesus Christ, therefore, in keeping with this tradition we also celebrate Jesus Christ's birthday as our most sacred and holy day along with His cruxificion.

Our religion springs from the same Abrahamic source as Judaism, therefore we are bound by many of the same customs and traditions as they are. It's only where Jesus Christ specifically alters the sacred writings of the Torah or the customs and traditions of Judaism that we, as Christians, differ from members of the Jewish faith. Examples of this would be the Ten Commandments which Jesus did not alter in His teachings, therefore they remain as a valid part of our belief, whereas the tradition of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth was changed by Jesus, therefore as Christians we no longer feel the spiritual necessity to exact revenge on our fellow man.

Since the custom and tradition of celebrating birthdays was not even addressed by Jesus, we may therefore conclude that His birthday is meant to be celebrated and this is exactly what we do as Christians.

If, as Christians, we were to use Sola Scriptura as the basis of our beliefs then by the same token we could state that since drug usage is not mentioned in the Bible, it is therefore acceptable. We may also conclude that since abortions are not mentioned they are also deemed as acceptable, to say nothing of cloning and stem cell research.

If one part is true, then all must be equally true, therefore we may conclude that Sola Scriptura is a faulty notion and that Sacred Traditions play a large role in the conduct of Christians in our everyday lives.

By itself, the Bible is nothing more than a bunch of words strung together, yet by our study of those words and the unbroken handing down of those teaching since the time of Jesus, we have transformed those words into a living breathing Sacred Tradition and in doing so we have maintained the one true faith.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Smee;
I am writing from the viewpoint of known historical facts and you are writing from the viewpoint of wild speculation. The fact of the matter is that no one knows for certain exactly whom Nimrod was. We do know that he WAS an Hebrew and he was related to Abraham and that there existed a seven generation spread between Nimrod and Abraham. We have no idea what his personal beliefs were nor if he worshipped a pagan deity nor the color of his eyes, etc.

In fact, most historical scholars deem it to be most likely that Nimrod had already left the district before the Tower of Babel was constructed. We know that Nimrod was Noah's great-grandson and that Abraham was ten generations removed from Noah, yet later Jewish tradition brings the two of them together for a cataclysmic battle of sorts. This could not have possibly occurred, as Nimrod had been dust long before Noah had been concieved, yet the tradition continues in the Talmud.

The Talmud states that the contest pitted Abraham against Nimrod as a cosmic contest between good and evil, with Nimrod representing paganism and idol worshippers. We know this could not have possibly taken place, simply because of the time span involved and most Biblical historians feel that the Jewish writers used Nimrod as a foe of Abraham merely because so little was known of him nor his offspring. In other words, he was the best scapegoat they could find at the time.

Since we know so little of Nimrod, we also know nothing of his beliefs, therefore no one can state that there was any type of pagan holiday which occurred on December the 25th. That is just make-believe and it was most likely dreamt up by neo-pagans, perhaps to add a sense of self-worth.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Smee;
You wrote:
Might I also add, it was not the birth that was important, it was the death that makes a difference. Without his death as a sacrifice to cover our sins, his birth would have no value at all.

Do you mean to state the act that God Himself, who gave mankind the gift of His SON in the form of man, is unworthy of celebration? Or that the teachings of Jesus are not worthy of mention? Do you mean to tell us that only Jesus' DEATH is important to mankind and that everything up to that point was just a preamble? Are you trying to state that God's GIFT to man is not cause for celebration?

Because this is exactly what happened, my friend. God presented mankind with the gift of His son and you see no cause for celebration? You have a highly jaded view of Christianity if this is what you tend to be. Personlly, I feel that when God gave us Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, He gave us the most precious gift of all time, made more so by the Jesus' utlimate cruxificion.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends.]

Dear Smee;
If what you are referring to falls within the realm of Sola Sciptura (by the Scriptures alone) then I am adfraid that you are only getting about half of the picture, if that much. I mean, think about this for just a moment. If the *learned ones* that you listen to are wrong about something as simple as the Chi-Rho and the origins of Christmas trees, then certainly they would be incorrect in their belief of Sola Scriptura as well.

It's a fallacy that the Bible alone is the ONLY source of the will of God and it's something which should be addressed. There is also something known as The Sacred Traditions and these are important as well as the Scriptures. We know that historically the birth dates of all of the most holy Jews were celebrated during the time of Jesus Christ, therefore, in keeping with this tradition we also celebrate Jesus Christ's birthday as our most sacred and holy day along with His cruxificion.

Our religion springs from the same Abrahamic source as Judaism, therefore we are bound by many of the same customs and traditions as they are. It's only where Jesus Christ specifically alters the sacred writings of the Torah or the customs and traditions of Judaism that we, as Christians, differ from members of the Jewish faith. Examples of this would be the Ten Commandments which Jesus did not alter in His teachings, therefore they remain as a valid part of our belief, whereas the tradition of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth was changed by Jesus, therefore as Christians we no longer feel the spiritual necessity to exact revenge on our fellow man.

Since the custom and tradition of celebrating birthdays was not even addressed by Jesus, we may therefore conclude that His birthday is meant to be celebrated and this is exactly what we do as Christians.

If, as Christians, we were to use Sola Scriptura as the basis of our beliefs then by the same token we could state that since drug usage is not mentioned in the Bible, it is therefore acceptable. We may also conclude that since abortions are not mentioned they are also deemed as acceptable, to say nothing of cloning and stem cell research.

If one part is true, then all must be equally true, therefore we may conclude that Sola Scriptura is a faulty notion and that Sacred Traditions play a large role in the conduct of Christians in our everyday lives.

By itself, the Bible is nothing more than a bunch of words strung together, yet by our study of those words and the unbroken handing down of those teaching since the time of Jesus, we have transformed those words into a living breathing Sacred Tradition and in doing so we have maintained the one true faith.
Your friend;
LAMAR

I don't know about that. Jesus' half brother John had something to say about changing the teachings:

 Look out for yourselves, that YOU do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that YOU may obtain a full reward. Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.

Then again, Paul in 2 Timothy said:

For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories. You, though, keep your senses in all things, suffer evil, do [the] work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry.

I am eternally grateful for the gift of his son, but it was by the SHED BLOOD that we have the opportunity for salvation. A jaded view? Jesus is a sacrifice, without which there is no salvation. Otherwise, why would he suffer such a horrendous torture and death? "These things I have spoken to YOU, that my joy may be in YOU and YOUR joy may be made full. This is my commandment, that YOU love one another just as I have loved YOU. No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends. YOU are my friends if YOU do what I am commanding YOU. John15:11-14

thank you smee...for staying on point with true facts...........against the lies and traditions of men...spouted by others

True story:

I was almost arrested in Bethlehem at the Church of the Nativity. 

Yeah, I thought they were bluffing. 

Those Greek Orthodox have NO sense of humor.

And for what it's worth, Saturnalia—the festival Christmas absorbed, in ancient times sscrificed children to their pagan gods.  oh, oh, oh...And there was cannibalism too.

Merry Christmas

   LOL... 

If the baby Jesus was born in my house today, I would put that Christmas tree up with all the lights on it I could possibly buy, and he might think it was cool.  I don't have any frankinsense, myrrh, or gold.  Just somethin to look at and say 'yeehaw!'.