accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

The official Record, strange but true.
Because King Phillip lost this dowry on 3rd. attempt he decided then to pull out of the America's.
So then governments then decided to take over the native land.
Today, January 12th., 2010 is 15 years to the Date I found the Carribean origin stone with the anchor carved into it with the circle carved around the anchor. Maybe was supposed to be the Vatican,mark, anchor but resembles more of the Catacombs, mark, anchor.
Florida was founded in the "Spirit of Saint Dennis" in what is today's,ghost town Astor, Georgia. There is an Astor, Florida today.Saint Dennis was the patron saint to psi experience, and dejuvu magics.
"Two friends put a painting on a wall and swore never to take it down until one or the other dies. As 1 of the friends lapsed into death on his deathbed one day , the painting fell off the wall on it's own accord. This is known as PSI Experience Magic", From Man Myth and Magic.
Dejuvu is also like everything you have seen it seems you have seen it before.
So, maybe the Tropical Storm Gordon that stalled off the Florida coast, and sent 19 foot waves crashing to the shore from 11/94-01/95 has a similar tie in with the condition that existed at the time of the sinking.?
*John Hancock.  Born 01/12/1733.
*The Arizon',Belem,and Rubi sunk in that year too; 07/07/1733, but maybe a coincidental Thing .
Todays featured article posted 01/14/10 EST but reads for the Date 01/15/10 ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipe...s_featured_article/January_15,_2010

Huh??

Watches existed back then. Some have been found on wrecks.

[url][http://www.atmos-man.com/historyo.html#_Toc411179457/url]

itmaiden

If there was a timeline on which ships sank first.How did any people come up with this timeline in 1715 when all they had for a clock was a sun dial.A sun dial only works when the sun is out,not when you are in the middle of a hurricane.Has any sun dials been recovered from any of the wrecks?

my thoughts - storm  approaching from east (see Greg's postings) :

  Escribania de Camara 1058C - Don Miguel de Lima y Melo in Havana to Duque de Linares, dated 19 October 1715.  "Arriving after 3 days at the mouth of the Bahama Channel, when night fall came this same day we had 'Los Roques' is sight and at daybreak the following morning we were near the head of the Florida Keys (Key Largo or Key Biscayne) which was opposite of us off our beam.  And continuing we coasted along the cayos and the mainland of Florida, however, always with very light winds, having to tack until we were forced to lay to (without sail), for the motive of still trying to incorporate Echeverz Squadron which always sailed at a distance from our Flota.
We were in this position when the wind began to blow fresh from the ENE and taking a sounding we found we were in 50 fathoms of water.  We were advised by the Capitana, by a cannon shot and flags, to use what sails we could and head away from the coast until we were in deep water.  But we were unable to do this because the currents were pushing us towards the shore and the winds were getting stronger, as being from the wrong direction for getting away from the shore. ....The sun disappeared and the wind increased and increased in velocity coming from the east and ENE"

So picture this - the Flota is in the lead or at least out of sight of the Galleones of Echeverz .. they are "laying to" when the wind starts to pick up - the Galleones were either behind or parallel but the Capitana and Almiranta (Rio Mar and Sand Point) end up wrecked north of  Lima - whether you believe that Lima was wrecked at the mouth of the old Ft. Pierce Inlet or at the St. Lucie. The ships supposed to be so far behind that the Flota was laying too ended up ashore north of one that was close enough to get the signal of the Capitana of the Flota.


Hurricane had to come in from the east   - Echervez' squadron on the starboard tack  further to the East / SE- wind picks up - lighter smaller ships can sail to windward (point) better and so escaped somewhat to the north - some being caught and sinking off the Cape or the edge of or in the Stream  - the heavier ships end up driven into shore as the hurricane comes further West but the earlier strong easterly winds have enabled them to beat enough to the north to pass the ships of Lima and some of the Flota

 Here is an example drawing of the anchor with a 9' shank that i found in 2003 on Cabin Wreck. The top fluke is broken off and gone but the ring is intact but lying downward as if the tension of the line was let loose. The Anchor points the best i can figure 190 degrees. The anchor is dug into the mud very deep as if it was being dragged through the bottom. I definitly believe this was a small anchor that the Almiranta used to try and hold themselves away from shore.

Direction of the winds versus direction of the Huricane. If the Hurricane was coming from the North, the lower bands would  hit first.  Counterclockwise lower bands would appear to be blowing southward, from the west and to the SE. If the storm is coming from the East, depending on where you are in relation to the storm, the bands could be blowing southward, from the NE, westerly or to the SE. If the storm is coming from the  SE the upper part of the bands would appear to be blowing from the East and NE.

itmaiden

my thoughts - storm  approaching from east (see Greg's postings) :

  

Just imagine the force that it took to break off that fluke of the anchor.Has that fluke ever been found?I bet its out on the 3rd reef or even further out.

 I would guess that corrosion and erosion is what weakend the fluke then probably a fishing net took it away....

OK, Goldminer and BillinStuart found sources for storm passing over Domincan Republic.  Tom and Ivan cite the storm ripping through St. Augustine.  Nobody says anything yet about Freeport or any storm there. So...



Fix 3 above is about where doldrums stopped and breeze picked up.  We are interested in what happens between Fix 3 and 4.  Next illustration shows position Fix 3.3 where storm stalls, and circulation equalizes while spreading out from the center.  Boats at 28 degrees of latitude are definitely getting a headwind.  Whole fleet is being blown south while those in the right front quadrant are being blown south and coasted by current, as well.




Storm organizes and begins to move toward landfall at Fix 3.8.  IF landfall is as shown and eyewall is at least this big, then Corrigans Patch bites the big one at Wabasso and is wiped southward along the beach for several miles as the tangency of the eyewall vs the slope of the shoreline presents the widest swath of storm front.  Meanwhile boats north are dashed to shore from the N.E. to S.W. initially.  Southend boats, like Douglas Beach are on a much longer tangent.  Landfall central is about Vero.  Rio Mar vessel pushed straight to the rocks.  Sand Point vessel goes in with a tangent similar to Douglas Beach wreck.



Now, lets deep six our voodoo belief systems and all agree that there were not two hurricanes striking the same place on two subsequent days.  Didn't happen.  Storm is lingering on landfall, which is typical while overcoming termperature differences.  Boats are on shore now (or swamped) and being pounded by surf.  Finally storm's rear quadrants pass over the victims, pulling wreckage away from shore.



Using this model, maybe we get a different idea about which wreckage is which ship... maybe... and where to dig offshore.

Signumops,
That was an excellent evaluation and presentation of the most likely hurricane scenario. Without doing any in depth analysis on my own, it presents clearly what I always felt in my gut.
Aquanut

  Thank You, That was a great example of how i think the storm traveled too, the only thing i don't agree on is the eye position... i believe the eye of the storm was closer to St lucie...  Capitana and Almiranta never encontered the eye only Lima....

Jose Millas says: “ 1715….. This hurricane is not mentioned in any catalogue of hurricanes. According to these records, no hurricane occurred in the year 1715.”
Fernandez Duro gives a good account of the fleet loss, however. Don Dioniso Alcedo gives the same date as Duro for this disaster, and according to Sheppard (1810) “ All the cocoa trees in Santo Domingo were destroyed.”
Given this evidence, Millas  then says, “ This hurricane crossed over the seas north of the Province of Oriente, Cuba, and the southern Bahamas, moving in a west-northwesterly or northwesterly direction.”
That being said, I think we can rule out TWO hurricanes on successive days.
Terry, could you use the same charts that you have posted, and place the known wrecks where they now lie?

Back in 1715 hurricanes wernt called hurricanes.They were called "the tempest" or "great gust","great storm",hurry cane","tremendous storm","the fury of the elements","Very copious rains" and "equinoctial winds","undiminished violence","September gales".Our word "hurricane" comes from words used for these storms, or storm gods, by people who were living around the Caribbean Sea when the Spanish arrived in 1492.

Most likely there was no hurricane that destroyed the 1715 fleet since none are on record anywhere.It could have been a sub tropical storm.These still rotate just like a hurricane but with lesser winds up to 70 mph.


records of Atlantic hurricanes from Spanish documentary sources
http://www.ucm.es/info/tropical/data.htm

Good info links.
http://www.hpc.ncep.noaa.gov/research/roth/va18hur.htm

sediment records for past hurricanes.
http://www.nytimes.com/images/2001/...24/science/sci_STORM_010724_00.html

http://stormcarib.com/climatology/

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/hur...hurricanes-deadliest-since-1492.htm

http://weather.unisys.com/hurricane/atlantic/

Hey Fisheye:
I don't buy the Millas story completely... that would put the storm moving IN the Bahama channel, which would mean the fleet was overcome from the south.  I assumed that for many years myself.  Bill Moore says it came from the north.  I don't see how, honestly, strictly from the statistical improbability. But, the effect of a northerly wind in the right front quadrant of a storm moving westward with the eyewall to the south of a boat would give the pilot the impression that the storm 'came from the north'.

I've been coinshooting at the HRD beach area during a tropical storm and I don't think that a whole boat could have been thrown ashore, sum total, in a tropical storm.  120 mph hurricane would definitely be able to do it if the storm front was plowing in perpendicular to shore.  The number of people killed on Ubilla's ship, in view of its very close proximity to the shore, leads me to believe this was at least a cat 3, probably more like a cat 4.  You can see by the displacement of the ballast that the boat was severely beaten and rolled around in a remarkably small area.  That all happened initially during the storm itself.  Later on (years or centuries) the hull bottom ended up on shore.

As for the actual landfall, well that might be far south at St. Lucie, but, I think that if that were so, and the track I just illustrated was correct, then the eye wall would have been much bigger than illustrated.  There is that missing vessel approximated to be at least some miles south of the Hutchinson Island power plant (I pinned that down in a previous post, but can't remember the exact location I plotted).  And how about the Rex Wreck at the Melbourne Beach radar site?  Did it just swamp?  Or did it come to shore and then get rolled out?  Don't know enough about that one to even say for sure that its one of the missing boats, but, maybe we need to start looking near shore and to the NORTH of that spot to see if anything is at the beach.

  Here is a map showing all known 1715 sites..... I believe the Cannon site is a piece of Corrigans.....

Maybe why theres no record of a hurricane in the atlantic in 1715 is cause the cane originated in the southern gulf and came across land.Tornados and water spouts come with hurricanes,maybe they did more damage to the ships than just the wind and waves.

Hey Greg:
Thanks for the map.  I know Goldminer would like to see them under my plot, but my map is too coarse to get all those sites labled using a hurricane tracking chart as a background.  Besides that I corrupted the file.  When I redraw it, I will use a metafile background of some sort so I don't get grainy when I zoom in.

BTW, here's a rubber-sheet view of the Ullian/Clausen map of the Cabin wreck in perspective, looking west.

Sweet.... You did a great job with that!!!!   

 Here is a look at the inshore cannon scatter of Corrigans.... The cannons are drawn to scale compared to the distance between them. There are more cannons out to sea and also to the north....


  The compass is referenced to mag N..

Now THAT's what I'm talkin about!!  I did not know there were that many.  I wonder how many King, Carr and McKee got?

Reminds me of a story, first-person, about Corrigans via Dirk Fisher.  I will put it up later today.

the scatter pattern of the cannons helps to tells us the path of the storm  * they were trying to go north to "escape" the storm --thus the straight line of cannons lost -- but were held back by the south blowing winds which were counter to what they needed (hard to sail north with southerly winds coming at you ) -- they could not turn south and go with the wind or go to the west -- which would place them in the path of the oncoming the storm -- the storm was to the right lower side (southwest) ---to the east was land -- so in effect they were "boxed in" -- with no where to go and no where to hide --so they tried as best they could by trying to ride it out ( which was all they could do really) - as it approached their location --one by one they got blown ashore , slowly but surely--

the records show that at the time of the storm st augustine took serious damage as well so the storm had to go north as well --logic says as it appoached land (after all the veseels were already wrecked --it turned northward -- running to st augustine --either over land or slightly offshore following the coast line ) hurricanes often run along the coast .

 there are records of a big storm in santo domingo --one powerful enough that it flattened all the plam trees (so it had to have very strong winds ) -- there are several accounts of a "strong storm" at various locations ---signemups charting of the 1715 storm is very possible given known damage reports and scatter patterns of wreckage

  The scatter of cannons that you see above happened after the ship was already in many pieces. This scatter is in shallow water near shore and it shows how the wind rolled and tumbled the hull structure across the bottom and onto the beach. The Capitana started breaking up more than 3/4 of a mile farther out to sea than these cannons.....

I remember in 92/93, Kane did quite an extensive survey in this area with the Dauntless. They had a system of spar bouys set up starting about the cannon/ballast area and heading to the southeast for at least a 1/2 mile or more.

I would like to thank EVERYONE who has contributed to this thread.  This has been/is a great discussion!

I'm especially interested in the possibility of a ship close to Stuart.  I've spent time on the beach in the area of the power plant.  Tommy Gore has an urn he found south of the power plant. 

A couple nagging questions for me is...1)  what affect do the storms have on the underwater artifacts?  Are they moved significantly?  I have personally picked a ballaststone on the beach after a hurricane .. 2)  does the lack of coins/ballast at certain sites indicate that they were either heavily salvaged earlier or wrecked so close to shore the debris was washed to shore and salvaged?

Hey Bill, I camped out at Sandsprit Park and dived off Stewart for lobsters (and treasure) almost every year since 1986. I found out 2 things; (1) the storms and hurricanes that hit the E. coast have spread shipwreck debris for miles along the shoreline. (2) The lack of artifacts at a certain site means that it was heavily salvaged at the time of sinking (especially if it was in shallow water) AND the debris was moved by later storms. Also if there is any ballast , modern day divers have picked over it. I never heard of any remains of the 1715 fleet being found that far south.

Hey Greg maybe this is the term for your anchor? áncora de salvación ......

Salvor, it is all in the research. I find a lot of TH's don't like to do the research, just the treasure collecting. As far as Ballast stones for that area debris. I know about the ballast stones and where they are at, but I'm not talking on this one.

itmaiden

Also if there is any ballast , modern day divers have picked over it. I never heard of any remains of the 1715 fleet being found that far south.

Making note to self:  Have Guido make IT an offer he can't refuse...............

You'll be singing like a canary in no time!

IT is a "she" and "she" doesn't sing well. I do peep out a few notes now and then just to make the treasure hunting more fun and competitive to everyone. But this ....nada.
If I gave away all my secrets there would be no treasure left for me ! And you boys don't like to share. I've tested some people from this board already to see who is smart and who is trustworthy among other things. Some are just plain liars !  There are others I respect.
First impressions are usually right, but some TH's are fooled by others. There are no loyalties among pirates/thieves and TH's.

itmaiden

Making note to self:  Have Guido make IT an offer he can't refuse...............

You'll be singing like a canary in no time!

[onshore .]

The "El Carmen"! Sunk off Rio Mar golf course 100V's.
Everybody is looking for the ships offshore.
It was or was it not,?, The El Carmen that was wrecked onshore and the entire contents were found  onshore . If it was not the El Carmen, near the Regla, what was it?
It took 10 dumptrucks running around the clock for 2 weeks to unload the treasure from a ship.
Treasure in body of water . Circle. Hoard of treasure ,Anchor .
Box with circle around it means treasure in lake. So, why not in another sort of body of water? Such as a river,?
Since the pictograph was found at the "Regla" site I think it must have been for it. 'Or another treasure either buried or dumped into the river', is my other idea on it.
When I get my P.I. detector watch for a little bald 50 year old man scanning in the river adjacent to the Regla .
That'll be me .  
And here's another theory to back up hunting in river.
Hurricanes can pick up and hurl things long distances. Imagine over the hundreads of years these things hurling scattered coins on the beaches over the barrier islands and into the rivers!

Apologies to IT for the gender mistake!  Yer point is well taken.  I have a ballaststone recovered at Colored Beach(I think) after the hurricanes, which tells me they are moved by wave action, and may be scattered. 

Have ballaststones been found in indian middens or camps?  did THEY recover them to use?

I said I had a story about Dirk Fisher and bronze cannons, but I got sidetracked a few days back and did not add it.  Sorry then, but here it goes...  

In 1970 the Derelict seldom strayed from the Cabin Wreck, but on a few occasions we would sail down to Corrigan's patch to dig.  I believe there was some sort of agreement between Treasure Salvors and Real 8 to that effect.  Anyway, the trip took the biggest part of the day because the Derelict was so slow, but, the diving was usually great, so the Derelict crew could stand the trip.  At that time, there was NOTHING along the beach south of Wabasso except the original Green Cabin (and it was a deserted shell used for weekend partys).  You did not see anything until you arrived in the vicinity of the newly franchised John's Island development.  The first thing built was the John's Island Club facility and it was just going up that year.  Mel had the Gold Digger working in that area, right at the beach (I mean like 30 feet from the beach!)

So, anyway, we had the Derelict setup and digging.  Rex Stocker was at the wheel.  John DeBry and I were on the bottom.  I was looking earnestly for the shine of gold, since they were finding some small stuff in the neighborhood.  John disappeared.  In a minute or so, he stuck his hand in front of my face holding this sizable gold ring with an escudo mounted in it.  This was a typical ploy that John favored when we dove together, so, I immediately assumed it belonged to somebody else and that he did not find it on the bottom.  I played the wet blanket.

 When we surfaced,  I could see that Mel, Deo and Dirk had pulled up along side in a small cabin cruiser.  There may have been more people in the boat, but, I just remember those three in particular.  The ring belonged to Deo.  Anyway, as we schmoozed between boats, Dirk said that "I found a bronze cannon over there" and he pointed to the E.S.E. .  Now, frankly, after all these years I did not think too much of it, but, I do remember approximately where the Derelict was at the time because the clubhouse had a cupola on top of it and we were in front of that, and that building was about the only thing there at that time.  So, for laughs, today I downloaded the aerial tile for Indian River County shoreline in the vicinity of John's Island,  shot in 1970.  You can get this yourself from the UF historic aerial web.  Get tile number 90.  I then overlaid that onto Google Earth and came up with this illustration:



The view is northward and the red polygon is the general indication from Dirk regarding the "bronze cannon".  The roadways were used to register the 1970 aerial clipping onto Google Earth.  Good match.

So what?  Well, I am not real familiar with the Corrigan's Wreck so I decided to see where the John's Island Clubhouse is, in relation to what is generally thought to be the honeypot of the Corrigan's wrecksite, specifically the Sterncastle.  I pinned that down and produced a plan view.  Carumba!  Considerable distance from the alleged cannon to the Sterncastle.  




I wonder if that gun is still in place, or, if there is a gun for sure.(?)  I am going to plot the lease boundaries on Google next.

I have a CAD file based on the State Plane Coordinate System which uses the USG Digital Line Graph boundary and road layers for the Fisher lease areas and I have plotted their lease boundaries on it.  I clipped the Corrigan's Patch (COR) lease portion and laid it over the previous illustrations.  The radius is elliptic instead of true round because the State Plane system is equal-area while the Google map is basically UTM, so I rubber sheeted the fitting, but the true radian value is adequate for the illustration.  When you look at the grid in Google Earth you will notice that the distance in Y is greater than the distance in X, which is more noticable the farther you move away from the equator.  

The cannon Dirk mentioned may not be in the Fisher lease as we know it today.  Back then, the lease was held by Real 8 and I do not know what their boundaries were.

[between]

You do see where that is going, don't you? Now you understand why Taffi has desired HRD's exploration area for so long. It fits with the direction Kane was searching in the early 90's.

Besides encompassing 5 miles of Vero Beach shoreline between 2 major 1715 shipwrecks, HRD's E132 also covers the deep water areas outside of both Corrigans and Rio Mar.

Tom

The only thing I know about the HRD area is that the Gordy's went to a wreck in the area of the radar site many years ago and did not pay much attention, and, I believe that was the area where Billy went "fishin".  Otherwise, I have no idea what the story is with that lease.  What happened to it?

  HRD presently has the lease and i have been surveying the area for them over the last two seasons..... Their lease is only exploration at this moment but HRD has been "assured by the State" that if they find a "Ballast Pile" that they would get a salvage contract... Their area goes out to the 3 mile limit and connects to Corrigans to the north and Riomar to the south.... We have many targets and will start checking them this season....

I found the first eggrock ballast stone on that site, it's been logged...however it was up near Beachcomber Lane and I really feel it was  an "intrusion" from Corrigans. Nothing else in that area except for the WII airplane.

Jim Whitaker did an excellent mag survey on E110/E132 but unfortunately, 99% of those anomalies have never been verified in over 10 years.

Anyone know anything else about that WWII airplane ? I would like to know more.

itmaiden

Nothing else in that area except for the WII airplane.

Bob Marx first found it back in the 60's. Unfortunately, it's been pretty well picked apart. Last time I was diving on it, the Indian River Shores fire dept or police dept. dive team were conducting training dives there and some members were bringing up pieces of it.

Great post and thanks to the people that have obviously put in quite a bit of time and effort and were nice enough to share it.

Nice work people.

Thank you.

Any reference to an ID # on that plane or other identifiers ?

itmaiden

Bob Marx first found it back in the 60's. Unfortunately, it's been pretty well picked apart. Last time I was diving on it, the Indian River Shores fire dept or police dept. dive team were conducting training dives there and some members were bringing up pieces of it.

[not]

I recently attended an archaeological conference in which the archaeologist, a bright young guy who, besides conducting extensive literary and historical research, actually went out into the field to gather physical evidence, presented a paper on the Ais indians, in which he theorized that:

1) the St Lucie Inlet was almost assuredly not open in 1715
2) The Rio de Ais was not the Indian River Inlet (the old, former inlet north of the present Ft Pierce Inlet) as commonly believed.
3) The Indian River Inlet was a very wide and deep inlet and was open until the early 1900's
4) There was an inlet in the Winter Beach area which was the actual Rio de Ais (or Barra de Ais) or Inlet of the Ais
5) Barra de Ais did not refer to a "barrier island" but rather an inlet, or more specifically, the bar across the mouth of the inlet.
6) That Lima et al (and other mariners of the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries) were regularly off in their latitude readings by an average of 5-10 degrees or more.
7) it is more important to understand the average error in degrees when calculating distances, and rely on league estimates, than it is to rely on actual latitudes reported in archival documents.

So, if all of this is true, what could someone intimately familiar with the history 1715 fleet story infer from these theories?

 

Where's winter beach?

Indian River Shores.

OK.  There WAS an inlet in the vicinity of Vero for many years.  I've researched charts from Romans forward, and agree with Mad.  Inlets have been few and far between, and have appeared/disappeared for centuries.  Just look at the recent hurricanes..Mother Nature wanted a new inlet at the house of refuge and at least one north of the nuke plant.  Unfortunately, she forgot to apply for the proper permits and they were closed off.

As for the "bar" of the Ais, makes sense.  All Florida inlets had a delta or "bar" across the mouth, which meandered about due to a number of factors.  Our last example of a natural inlet is Matanzas, but all were similar.

yes both nature and mans diverting of water caused changes in the inlets --the lack of water flow due to the water being diverted for rice and other crops would allow inlets that had been kept open by the natural outward flow of water to silt in closing them over time.

The new information is groundbreaking.

Many researchers have been lead to believe (me included) that Lima was off the St. Lucie inlet somewhere (the mouth of a river) due to his latitude calculation. But the St Lucie inlet wasn't open in 1715. The latitude reading is way off (as were several others). The Indian River Inlet was open, and was known to be a rather wide inlet. There is also a circa early 18th century shipwreck there. No one has ever found a ballast pile at the St Lucie inlet despite extensive searching.

Also, the Rio de Ais or Barra de Ais was not the Old Indain River inlet, but was located in Indian River shores. There are numerous mentions in the Haskin report of the Barra or Rio de Ays and everyone assumed (and based their theories and calculations) on this being the old inlet at Ft Pierce.

  I agree that the ocean would breach the dune and create inlets after storms. Sometimes these inlets would stay open for many years and sometimes just the opposite. Maybe St Lucie inlet was closed in 1715 but i do not believe that Indian River Inlet was. I have several old maps that show Indian River Inlet in the same place and open also Bernard Romans mentions it as being open and he was here just 45 years after the 1715 disaster. St Lucie Inlet has opened and closed many times and it is possible that it was closed in 1715 but that does not change the account of Lima or that his ship is not down that far. Lima dosen't even mention an inlet just that he is at the mouth of a river and he also discribes the area he is in almost to the tee the way Bernard Romans discribes St Lucie area... I still believe that Lima is down near St Lucie....

I am not arguing that the Old Indian River Inlet was closed in 1715, (it was open and was a wide and prominent inlet-the only one on the treasure coast in early 18th century that could be describe as "at the mouth of a river")  just that when archival documents refer to the Barra or Rio de Ays, they are referring to the now closed inlet at Winter Beach, not the one down at Ft Pierce. Winter Beach was the true "inlet of the Ais."

In part, to reach this conclusion, the archaeologist retraced Dickinson's journey in 1696 up the coast of Florida. He also relied on maps and documentation Mexia, Brahms and Romans to reach these new conslusions. (and he points out their errors)

The fact that really stood out in the presentation is the Spanish were often times far off in their latitude readings. (There is some 1715 documentation that has the fleet wrecked at 28.10)

   Ok, The document that you are talking about did not say the Fleet wrecked there but one ship and that is where Rex Stalker has a wreck.... So i would have to say the Spanish were closer than most people think. Also remember that Spanish used different measure than English..... You cant take a Spanish Latitude and place it on an English chart and expect to get the right position, you have to convert it.

  Here is a quote from Bernard Romans talking about St Lucie Inlet..

"From this mouth of the river southward the sound is cut into branches, by means of two peninsulas of mangroves, divided from the main island by these lagoons; the branch which disembogues itself at is shallow, and full of oyster banks, about fourteen miles long; however, a small schooner, drawing five feet water, was by our people brought through here and out at This inlet was shut for many years before 1769, but I have since seen it open till 1773, our people have been encamped on the same spot where now the water allows egress and regress to such a craft as the above-mentioned schooner, just sufficient to pass it: This, I suppose, has been owing to a less quantity of water coming down St. Lucie river for some years, because the Spaniards informed me of its having been open before.In short, this part of the country is such a curiosity, that I have many times lamented the want of leisure, and means to explore it thoroughly."


  [/colo

There won't be a ballast pile if the ship did not break apart and spill the ballast. Remember, the Lima was punctured in the right side by one of the masts which caused it to sink. There is a ship laying on it's right side just out of the jetty a short ways on the left sitting on a reef.

itmaiden

The new information is groundbreaking.

Many researchers have been lead to believe (me included) that Lima was off the St. Lucie inlet somewhere (the mouth of a river) due to his latitude calculation. But the St Lucie inlet wasn't open in 1715. The latitude reading is way off (as were several others). The Indian River Inlet was open, and was known to be a rather wide inlet. There is also a circa early 18th century shipwreck there. No one has ever found a ballast pile at the St Lucie inlet despite extensive searching.

Also, the Rio de Ais or Barra de Ais was not the Old Indain River inlet, but was located in Indian River shores. There are numerous mentions in the Haskin report of the Barra or Rio de Ays and everyone assumed (and based their theories and calculations) on this being the old inlet at Ft Pierce.

 Actually there should be a large ballast pile because Lima's ship wrecked intact and they burnt it to the water line. His ship wrecked between two reefs...

Here is another interesting quote from Bernard Romans.....  "Rio d' Ais" is the Spanish word for the Indian River not the Inlet....


  "To return to our topographical account :-along this southern lagoon, which extends itself for about forty miles to Cape Cannaveral, in the latitude of 28 degrees and a half, we find several settlements of good note, among which that of Captain Rogers is the most meridional habitation on the British continent. At Cape Cannaveral is some good plantable land, and here is the southern head of this lagoon; about two miles and an half to the westward thereof is the head or northern end of another branch, likewise called a river; a road is cut to draw boats out of the Musketo Lagoon into this, which is called South-hillsborough by De Braham but commonly called Indian River; the savages call it Aisa Hatcha, i.e., Deer River, although the same elegant Hexiphanes has made it Hysweeslake; a word by him fabricated, I suppose, from Ylacco, the name given by the savages to St. John's River; .the Spaniards call it Reo d’ Ais. No rivers of any note fall into its northern branch, except St. Sebastians, directly opposite to whose mouth happened the shipwreck of the Spanish Admiral, who was the northermost wreck of fourteen galleons, and a hired Dutch ship, all laden with specie and plate; which by stress of north east winds were drove ashore and lost on this coast, between this place and the bleach-yard, in 1715. A hired Frenchman, fortunately escaped, by having steered half a point more east than the others. The people employed in the course of our survey, while walking the strand, after strong eastern gales, have repeatedly found pistareens and double pistareens, which kinds of money probably yet remaining in the wrecks, are sometimes washed up by the surf in hard winds. This Lagoon stretches parallel to the sea, until the latitude 27 :20, where it has an out-watering, or mouth: directly before this mouth, in three fathoms water, lie the remains of the Dutch Wreck."

Was the Urca de lima the only Dutch ship in the 1715 fleet?

well the "dutch prize" vessel taken by Echeverz could have been dutch built maybe but it was recorded as being  rather small in size --its also known by the following "titles" --La Olandesa --(the dutch) ---Olandesa -(dutch)--senor de la popa -- and  -- senor san miguel

Are you sure it was burnt to the water line ? If so, maybe "my ship" is an older vessel.

itmaiden

 Actually there should be a large ballast pile because Lima's ship wrecked intact and they burnt it to the water line. His ship wrecked between two reefs...

There is an intact ballast pile between two reefs at the site of the old Indian River inlet (which was open in 1715 and could easily be described as "the mouth of a river")

   This is an account of Lima.....


19 Oct 1715 - Havana, Don Miguel de Lima y Melo to Viceroy of Mexico.

           "...All of the ships, with the exception of mine, broke to pieces.  My ship stayed intact for 30 days after this disaster until we recovered part of the cargo and then burned the ship."

[not]

I recently attended an archaeological conference in which the archaeologist, a bright young guy who, besides conducting extensive literary and historical research, actually went out into the field to gather physical evidence, presented a paper on the Ais indians, in which he theorized that:

1) the St Lucie Inlet was almost assuredly not open in 1715
2) The Rio de Ais was not the Indian River Inlet (the old, former inlet north of the present Ft Pierce Inlet) as commonly believed.
3) The Indian River Inlet was a very wide and deep inlet and was open until the early 1900's
4) There was an inlet in the Winter Beach area which was the actual Rio de Ais (or Barra de Ais) or Inlet of the Ais
5) Barra de Ais did not refer to a "barrier island" but rather an inlet, or more specifically, the bar across the mouth of the inlet.
6) That Lima et al (and other mariners of the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries) were regularly off in their latitude readings by an average of 5-10 degrees or more.
7) it is more important to understand the average error in degrees when calculating distances, and rely on league estimates, than it is to rely on actual latitudes reported in archival documents.

So, if all of this is true, what could someone intimately familiar with the history 1715 fleet story infer from these theories?

 

 I have to disagree with this bright young Archaeologist... Bernard Romans studied the area and does not mention anything about an inlet in winter beach... He says that the only inlets Between Cape Canaveral and the Bleach Yard were Indian River and St Lucie. This man would know....

Goho, you're presenting VERY interesting stuff. 

I've only seen a couple of charts showing the Vero inlet, and all postdate Romans.

As for an inlet at Stuart, your description of the lagoon becoming mangroves is a perfect description of the present area south of the present St. Lucie Inlet.  It could also describe an inlet at Pecks lake or the wide area of the intercoastal north of it near the end of the state park.  My question is..this area has that longshore HARD reef that would impede both boat travel and waterflow, except for Packs Lake.  There was an inlet that opened at Pecks Lake in the 1960's, btw.

   Yes, the old St Lucie Inlet fell between Lat 27: 9 and 27: 8, behind Leach Shoal. This Shoal created sort of a harbour. Now days the errosion south of present day St Lucie has created a new beach almost 1000' west from where it was in Bernard Romans times.... I know that in the 1960's a large inlet opened at pecks lake but by that time the new inlet was opened at 27: 10.

 Here is a detailed chart of St Lucie Area in 1883...   I have this chart in Hi Res and georeferenced if anyone is interested in purchase...  $25.00..

 Here is a chart from 1861 of Indian River Inlet... This chart was made 100 years after Bernard Romans and the Inlet is still exactly the way he discribed it....

  Here i zoomed in on the inlets...

  As you can see on the St Lucie Chart that the Inlet was closed in 1883....

umm. Thanks. I had read the account a long time ago, but forgot some of the details. So now I am thinking a particular ship is perhaps 1600's or 1500's. It is well camouflaged on the reef.

itmaiden

   This is an account of Lima.....


19 Oct 1715 - Havana, Don Miguel de Lima y Melo to Viceroy of Mexico.

           "...All of the ships, with the exception of mine, broke to pieces.  My ship stayed intact for 30 days after this disaster until we recovered part of the cargo and then burned the ship."

Wow, that really changes one's view. Definitely worth keeping in one's collection. Looks like you have a good personal library.

itmaiden

 Here is a detailed chart of St Lucie Area in 1883...   I have this chart in Hi Res and georeferenced if anyone is interested in purchase...  $25.00..

  Thanks, I have dedicated the last 17 years to studying the 1715 fleet.....

Tommy Gore has found items from the 1600's north of the present St. Lucie inlet.

I tend to agree with Greg on the location of inlets, BUT, the archaeological reviewer that Tom speaks of is interesting to say the least, especially in view of the following.

I am sorry, Tom, that I did not make the presentation on the 23rd... your gain, my loss.  However, throwing DeBrahm's name around in support of a mystery inlet does not hold water (pardon the pun). Perhaps the presenter was relying upon Dr. De Vorsey's research footnotes reference "DeBrahm's Report Of The General Survey In The Southern District Of North America".  In that volume, as well as DeBrahm's "Atlantic Pilot", DeBrahm charts "Hillsborough Inlet".  That would be the old Indian River Inlet, however, Dr. De Vorsey says in his footnotes...



De Vorsey is all wet.  Here is a chart of Hillsborough Inlet surveyed by DeBrahm in 1765.



If you examine the mapnotes at the top, they place Hillsborough Inlet at...



Yep, 27 degrees, 30 minutes, 53 seconds, to wit: old Indian River Inlet.  Definitely NOT just to the south of Melbourne Beach.  So, what exactly was De Vorsey thinking?  Well maybe he confused the DeBrahm map with the U.S. Survey map of Brevard County done in 1885.  This will make your teeth grind!  Look closely at next illustration, which is a zoomed out-take from that map.



Sebastian Inlet is then Gibson's Cut (which presaged New's Cut).  I see an inlet north of Micco.  That would be approximately in the vicinity of present-day Money Walk-Chuck's Steakhouse area!  Could it be that the money at Chuck's comes from the Urca De Lima ?  

Terry,
My att'y had a beach house very near Chuck's, with a large lot attached to his property. Mel came there in the 1980's, and told him that he believed that there could have been a salvage camp on his vacant lot. Henry Taylor and I stayed at the beach house when we were in that area, and were told that many pieces of gold jewelry had been found two houses down.

Well it's been a great thread. However, it's gotten so long, it's hard to load.
iltmaiden

And to think, if I hadn't of opened my mouth, none of this information would have come forth.   

   Terry, The DeBrahm chart is interesting... I will trade you a hi res copy of any of my charts geo referenced to any corrdinate system you like for a Hi Res copy of your chart? I have the Atlantic pilot but the charts that come with it are not that detailed....

   Thanks for posting....

once again I want to thanks folks for their honest exchange of information  related to this matter --this is how we all learn --

The Spanish had a policy of geographical secrecy. Rest assured, they did not provide any information to the English when the Brits took over rule of Florida. As for the Brits, much of their surveying/estimating/calculating was pretty inaccurate. (Wasn't it Romans who depicted Merritt Island extending all the way down to the Sebastian River?)

During Menendez (1565) the Barra de Ays was open. During Mexia (1605), still open. During Dickinson (1696) still open. During 1715 fleet disaster, still open. But when DeBrahm got here (1773?) the "Barra de Ays" at Indian River Shores was closed up. Not knowing that an inlet even existed at the Indian River Shores location, DeBrahm assigned that identity, "Barra de Ays" to the old Indian River Inlet down near Ft Pierce-the closest one around.

All of the geographical features you see in the Indian River at Indian River Shores/Winter Beach, are due to the fact that an inlet once existed there. The science, barrier Island geomorphology, is pretty interesting.

Here is more confusion: William Roberts, in his History of Florida (London, 1763 p.22) mentions (quote) the "Rio de Ays, three leagues north of Rio Santa Cruz," which he also calls Santa Lucia on the same page, "and in latitude 27 deg. 45 min."

Now, assuming (incorrectly I believe) that Roberts is talking about the St. Lucie River, from there north to the old Indian River inlet is about 25 miles. This distance is way to far to be considered 3 leagues.  Also, the old Indian River Inlet is at latitude 27.30

However the latitude mentioned, 27 deg. 45 min. is very close to Winter Beach and the site of the proposed "Barra de Ayz.", which about 12 miles north (close to 3 leagues) from the old Indian River Inlet!

So Roberts is either way off in both his latitude measurement and distance estimates...or he has simply confused place names yet his calculations are pretty darn accurate

Just more food for thought.

Also, I have numerous references for Santa Lucia being at/the old Indian River inlet (not the current St Lucie inlet) which I will provide later.

ps. Thanks to AE Brech for much of the information I am using.

Tom

The last hurricanes have shown how new inlets can be formed under extreme conditions.  My feeling is anywhere the barrier is narrow or low is a potential inlet, or has been in the past.  Since the current is very low in the Indian River lagoon, it's unlikely it has changed much in the last few hundred years.  This can be verified by the charts for the last few hundred years. 

So the dune line is high, you say?  Remember dunes are comprised of wind blown sand, which has to be fine to be moved by the wind.  These dunes are fragile, and easily eroded or even blown away under the right conditions.  Once the dune line is removed, any low area along the barrier island could be a potential inlet.

A number of old maps I have looked at have been consistent with the location of St Lucie. But in the early days and with new explorers using old maps that were less detailed, it is very possible a number of explorers mis-understood where things were at. And how about the difference there between true north and magnetic north.

An interesting detail I found in an historical writing was "why" the "Bleach Yard" was so called.  Many assume it was named that because of the drying of sails. However, the reference I read said the Bleach Yard was a "hill dotted with white spots" (not verbatim)  thus "bleach yard".

itmaiden

Here is more confusion: William Roberts, in his History of Florida (London, 1763 p.22) mentions (quote) the "Rio de Ays, three leagues north of Rio Santa Cruz," which he also calls Santa Lucia on the same page, "and in latitude 27 deg. 45 min."

for Santa Lucia being at/the old Indian River inlet (not the current St Lucie inlet) which I will provide later.

Tom

I agree with the sail drying analogy.  Just like "Los Tortolas" at Ft. Pierce 'looked" like turtle humps, the "Bleech yard" looked like a drying area.  There was NO deepwater access to that area, and the Spanish had JUST left Havana..why dry their sails so soon?

 Here is an interesting chart by Bernard Romans but he has the name of St Lucie Inlet as Ays Inlet...

GOHO, that's EXACTLY one of the maps that i've looked at very carefully.  Hillsboro has to be Ft. Pierce.  "AYS Inlet" appears to be slightly north of the present location, about where mother nature tried to open one during the last hurricane. Notice how he shows foul areas just offshore from the mouth..where the reef is.

 Bill, ths chart was made in 1776... If you look close at Ays Inlet it shows Leech Shoal in front on the Ays Inlet so it has to be in the same place as the old St Lucie Inlet.....

Not to derail the current discussion, but I came across this article and I was wondering if perhaps there are a couple 1733 vessels mixed into this area (aside from all the other wrecks known in the area), or perhaps this was just debris from the Keys that had drifted north?

October 3, 1733, London newspaper article....

Someone's spending too much time inside..must be the weather.....

Anyhow, I don't see the "Leech SHoal" named. but do see the foul area.  Now, we do have a Leech Mansion here in Jensen Beach, built on top of an old midden.  The name "leech Shoal" escapes me.  

The area I suspect as the original location is just south of the House of refuge.  Because of the outcropping of rock there, erosion south of it is expected.  This is the area that was breached during the hurricanes.

  He didn't label Leech shoal in that chart but he did draw it in as the "x"s, He did label it in this one...

I've gotta map that shows the "Leach Shoal" further north, but it's too large to post. 

Found this site..

nauticalcharts.noaa.gov

that has some interesting stuff from the 1800's.  One shows the OLD Ft. Pierce inlet from the 1920's.

There are a couple of problems with that Roman's map

1) He shows the north fork of the St Lucie river extending almost to El Palmar-way north of where it actually ends

2) The St Lucie inlet was never the inlet of the Ais

3) He shows the Bleechyard as a bit north of the St Lucie inlet. It is actually much further south. If you have ever driven this stretch of highway, there is just one area like that described- down near Hobe Sound- an area of high hills with bright white sand...almost looks like snow on the hilltops. The highest point has an elevation of just over 80 feet! ( 27.1.088N / 80.6.678W). Notice Romans says hill (singular) There is an observation tower on this spot today (in Jonathan Dickinson State park). From sea, this landmark would have stood out for many miles.

The "bleech yard" is at Jensen Beach, although it no longer resembles a bare slope, having been built on.  There is a prominent and steep sand ridge just west of downtown Jensen, running north for a 1/2 mile or so.

   Tom, The Bleach Yard is what we call today "Mt Elisabeth" which is located north of St Lucie River near the long peninsula.. Bernard Romans states in his book that he dead reckoned the the river so it is not exact..

I have read a couple of historical accounts giving indication that 1733 wrecks were off the East Coast of Florida. I've read differing accounts of the number of ships wrecked from that fleet.

itmaiden

Not to derail the current discussion, but I came across this article and I was wondering if perhaps there are a couple 1733 vessels mixed into this area (aside from all the other wrecks known in the area), or perhaps this was just debris from the Keys that had drifted north?

October 3, 1733, London newspaper article....

How come you're not treasure hunting today  ?

Now me personally...I would love to trade this snow, and cold as well as my respiratory infection for some warm Sebastian sunshine and a vigorous treasure hunt.

Send some sunshine up to Arkysaw will ya ?

itmaiden

Someone's spending too much time inside..must be the weather.....

Anyhow, I don't see the "Leech SHoal" named. but do see the foul area.  Now, we do have a Leech Mansion here in Jensen Beach, built on top of an old midden.  The name "leech Shoal" escapes me.  

The area I suspect as the original location is just south of the House of refuge.  Because of the outcropping of rock there, erosion south of it is expected.  This is the area that was breached during the hurricanes.

I've gotta map that shows the "Leach Shoal" further north, but it's too large to post. 

Found this site..

nauticalcharts.noaa.gov

that has some interesting stuff from the 1800's.  One shows the OLD Ft. Pierce inlet from the 1920's.

  Leech shoal begins at Bath Tub Beach and extends to the SE for a couple miles, if you look on google earth you can see it still there. They had to cut through it to build the present day inlet but it extends even farther south than the St Lucie Inlet...

On further examination......

my map does show leach shoal off of "hillsborough Inlet", also named "spanish admirals inlet" a mile or so north of the present St. Lucie location.  Interestingly, AYS inlet is a couple miles south near Peck Lake.  Proceeding south, there's blowing rocks (rocks on shore) the Jupiter or "Granville" inlet.

I don't know where I copied this map, and it's too large (1.6mb) to post.

Bill

Bill, send me the map and I'll resize it and format it for showing here.

Luis (Chagy) and I did some research years ago on the Bleach Yard and determined that there were two of them. So Tom and Greg, you are both actually correct. We kept getting them confused since varying documents were very detailed as to their locations. We figured they both must be correct and not one and the same. I thought that Romans' reference correlated with today's Ocean Breeze Park (about a mile east of Mt Elizabeth), in which you can still see a couple of large patches today. I'm not sure why the Hobe Sound location has such a defined circle, but I haven't traveled that direction in some time. Those who live there can share with us better than I. My files are buried right now, so forgive me for not posting my references. I'm sharing this from memory.

Best,
Darren

Darren, the actual "landmark hill" is still south of the area you pointed out, although it may be part of the same ridge. The tallest point around, it is at 27.1.088N / 80.6.678W. There is an observation tower built atop of it today...and yes, you can see it from sea.

You are correct, Tom. I can see that spot now about one mile south. That's what I get for trying to recall from memory Maybe I can go dig my files out and give the references for what I found back then. This has been a great thread!

"Mt. Elizabeth" is actually a midden located directly on the Indian River.  Upon it sits the "Leech mansion".  This is located about a mile SSE from the "Bleech yard" at Jensen Beach/Ocean Breeze Park (a town, btw).

Maps clearly show the "bleech yard" located north of the St. Lucie river...that's why I discount the Hobe Sound location.  That part of the coast is identified by the "blowing Rocks" at the park by the same name.  Somewhere down near blowing is a "fresh water spring in a rock".  Where is that??

[1600s]

This is from a previous post by Chagy:

Bleach yard is not one sandy spot but an entire area that goes from Jupiter to St. Lucie with several sandy spots........The first one to give it its name was Bishop Calderon fom Cuba back in the 1600s the original name was "ropas extendidas"

  Every Chart i can find except one shows the Bleach Yard North of St Lucie River but i did come across some interesting accounts.....


On the west of Hobe Sound, the land rises into hills and ridges of light
sand, scattered over with shrub pines and vacciniums, This tract is marked
on the old charts, the Bleach Yard. On Gomez Island, north of Jupiter
Inlet, is the old plantation of Padre Torry, now grown up with bushes, but
embracing several fruit trees, that contend with the cabbage-palms for possession.


1715. On the 31st of June of this year, a Spanish fleet of fourteen sail
of galleons on their return from Mexico through the Gulf of Florida,
ran foul of the reef near Carysfard, through the ignorance of the Admiral
Don Rodrigues de Torres. Every ship but one was destroyed. The
Captain of the ship that was saved disobeyed the signal of the Admiral and
bore away. An immense treasure was lost. The Spaniards, some time
afterwords, fitted out a company of wreckers and dives, and sent them to
attempt a recovery of the specie and bullion that was on board the galleons,
were very successful, and raised a large quantity of the treasure.

1716. The English in Jamaica, learning how the Spaniards were
employed, fitted out two ship and four sloops, under the command of
Captain Henry Jennings, who immediately sailed to the Florida Keys,
anchored his fleet, and sent three hundred men on shore to attack the
spanish guard, which consisted of sixty men, who fled into the woods and
abandoned to the English three hundred and fifty thousand pieces of eight,
which was carried in triumph to Jamaica.


 You might be right Tom.....   When you bring minds together new things are learned...

It has been an interesting thread for sure. I don't claim to know much. Other than actually getting out on the water or exploring the beaches first hand, much of my 'research' is dependent upon the research of others.

Sometimes I like to play the "devils advocate" too, just to keep the discussion rolling.

[1600s]

Definition: Bleech Yard

n' a general term for an area of ground, either inland or beside the sea, laid out for the playing of golf

FOUR !

itmaiden

This is from a previous post by Chagy:

Bleach yard is not one sandy spot but an entire area that goes from Jupiter to St. Lucie with several sandy spots........The first one to give it its name was Bishop Calderon fom Cuba back in the 1600s the original name was "ropas extendidas"