accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

first we need to know how many vessels there was in the joint fleet altogether -- 12 vessels in total if one includes the french vessel griffon * * which was the only vessel to survive the hurricane --it returned to brest , france  ) --so  minus the french vessel from the 12 ship total -- that leaves a total of 11 spanish ships sunk in total -- 5 of these were Ubilla's fleet , and 6 in Echeverz's fleet .

8 vessels were stuck together as the main fleet ( this was all 5 of ubilla;s fleet --  plus the 2 major treasure vessels of Echeverz fleet carrying the kings treasure and the dutch prize vessel "Olandesa "/ san miguel-- aka as "senora de la popa" which Echeverz wrote from as his shelter (real) during recovery operations (thus it was in the area of loss near the two main treasure vessels of Echeverz fleet)-- thus we know that the 8 vessels sank together are all of Ubillas fleet (5) and the two main treasure vessels plus the dutch prize vessel of Echeverz's fleet (3)

while 4 vessels * split off earlier before the main storm struck the fleet * -- it was the griffon and 3 of Echeverz frigate type vessels according to the tesimony of Capt Nicolas de Ynda taken in havana on august 16th , 1715 ( santo domingo #419)-- Ynda was the pilot major of Ubilla's Almiranta --two days before the storm struck the french vessel griffion left the main fleet -- one day before the strom struck the frigate san miguel (tobacco hauler) left the fleet  thats #1-- the day of the storm the frigate " Concepcion" left the main fleet #2 and the third frigate type vessel from Echevez must then be the french prize vessel --also known as "El Ciervo" --(unknown exactly when she departed but as he said 3 frigates of Echeverz fleet and with all the other vessel accounted for it must be this one)

of the 3 missing Echeverz vessels only one was "offically"  listed as carrying treasure ---the "Concepcion" but all most likely had large amount of smuggled gold and silver aboard them as well as trade goods--the Concepcion is reported to have had some survivors wash ashore in the cape area after floating for a couple days on a hatch cover . --which leads many to think she was lost at or slightly below the cape area .

Admerial salmon ( who was 2nd in charge of the fleet until Ubilla died -- then he was in charge of it and who was in charge of the recovery operations) stated --in his sept 20th letter to the king --9 vessels are sunk and 2 galloeones of echeverz are missing -- note 9 +2 =11 vessels -- (  PS Echeverz fleet was called the "galloenes" so no the "treasure vessels were not "missing")--( thus the 8 main fleet vessels  and the concepcion* were known lost and "accounted for" by salmon) and he said of the other 2 there is little doubt that they sank upon the high seas  because wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the north shore of st augustine (debris was found on the northern st augustine coastline )--that could be from either the french prize vessel --"el ciervo" and / or  the tobbaco hauler San Miguel ( however  it might be some wreckage from another vessel )

I think the accuracy of his account is lacking.

itmaiden

which one IT and why? after all one is the head pilot of the fleet * (ynda) and the other the #2 in command of the fleet (salmon) both were on the scene and there when the events occured .

As you well know  Fisheye, this account contradicts other accounts. Which one are you more likely to believe ?  Based on a clue on an old map, and also based on my own "finds" I can dispute at least part of this account for sure.
Right now I am in the process of matching up a significant ship structure with the nationality that built the ship, which is difficult because of some similarities in the construction for that time period. But this structure is identical to one I found in another section of the combined fleet. 

This was a powerful hurricane. The Melbourne discovery is going to be vital in verifying any account.  We can only guess at the order the ships may have ended up in after leaving Havana and after being hit by the storm. Spanish "Ships" often travelled in tight formation for security. However, that may have been difficult going through the Florida straits. Smaller vessels could have sailed abreast of the larger ones, but I suspect the most condensed the fleet could have been were 3 to a row. But even that is questionable when looking at Ocean Topography for the area. The Straits do bottleneck in a couple of places, and as the ships approach Cape Canaveral, they do have to head Northeasterly a little early to avoid the shoals.

The storm was a Hurricane, nothing less. The distance of ocean affected by such a storm is so great, I do not see it as feasible for "ships that allegedly separated" from the main fleets to have survived. If a ship such as the French ship left 1 day ahead, it is possible. But in one and the same day, the ships could not travel far enough fast enough to avoid catastrophe. Could there be a larger scatter pattern for the fleets ? Sure there could be, given the fact they have to give each other room leaving out of the harbor and taking great care going through the Straits. These ships were heavy laden. The Gulf Stream does facilitate the speed of travel. However, the normal current was being disrupted by the impending Hurricane. How many times have you watched an  area 2 to 3 days in advance of an approaching Hurricane ? Have you noticed the seas ?  This Hurricane hit them hard and fast for sure. We do know there is wreckage from this fleet from the Sebastian area down to the Hutchinson Island area. That is not a small storm.  Upper bands of the Hurricane hit the Sebastian area, and I will tell you that upper westward bands hit at the Hutchinson Island area also based on old photos showing debris scatter patterns.  So just how large was the top half of this beastly storm ? I do think the Hutchinson Island area was closer to the eye of the storm perhaps. I do not think it was a tight eye. I think the outer bands were the most powerful for this storm and that the top part of the fleet took the hardest hit.

itmaiden

which one IT and why? after all one is the head pilot of the fleet * (ynda) and the other the #2 in command of the fleet (salmon) both were on the scene and there when the events occured .

 My Thoughts....


   I believe their were only 11 ships of the Plate fleet and the Griffon a French ship held in Havana from sailing until the treasure fleet was ready to depart because fear of them warning pirates of the treasure fleets departure. So 12 ships left Havana harbour!

   I think of the Storm that sank the fleet as a storm like Hurricane Francis or Jean in 2004. I believe the storm came pretty much straight in from the east because one of the letters states that "the sun never rose that day".  I also think the eye of the storm came across near St Lucie because Lima's ship (which is not the wedge wreck at pepper park) stayed intact wedged between to reefs. If Lima's ship had been in the eye wall like Salmon or Ubilla it would have been disintegrated the same as their ships.
   In some of the letters from the survivors they give fairly accurate distances to the salvage camps from Lima's camp at (27'15) and from his ship at (27'10) to the Capitiana (10 leagues away). After a month or two the distances between all the wrecks is stated as 15 or 16 leagues. The biggest problem with these numbers are people try to put them on a modern day map, that wont work unless you know how to convert them to Spanish measurements.
  Echeverez did have a couple ships separate from the fleet the day of the storm and a couple days before the storm. I think the wreck that Rex Stalker has in his area is the ship that left the day of the storm. The ship that left 2 days before the storm is wrecked farther north not sure if its north of St Augustine or South (that is a translation issue). I think the letter says "to the leeward of St Augustine" and the translator said North. The Griffon made it back to France and did not even know that there was a storm. He separated 3 days before the storm hit.

  There wouldn't have been a disaster if Echeverez didn't sail so slowly, holding up the entire fleet. Ubilla had to wait on him many times sailing up the channel. That's why the ships separated, they knew it was dangerous sailling the Bahama channel so slowly and they wanted to get out of there.


 


   
 

I think the Pepper Park Wreck got caught within the eye and sailed with the eye as it moved onto shore. There was another wreck  I located that better fit the description of the Urca.  Time will tell hopefully before any more storms destroy more wreckage. Other wreckage at Hutchinson I believe occured just before from the westward bands of the hurricane.  If there were any ships behind these, they were most likely pushed further out to sea by the lower bands....and/or totally immersed in sand

itmaiden

 My Thoughts....


   I believe their were only 11 ships of the Plate fleet and the Griffon a French ship held in Havana from sailing until the treasure fleet was ready to depart because fear of them warning pirates of the treasure fleets departure. So 12 ships left Havana harbour!

   I think of the Storm that sank the fleet as a storm like Hurricane Francis or Jean in 2004. I believe the storm came pretty much straight in from the east because one of the letters states that "the sun never rose that day".  I also think the eye of the storm came across near St Lucie because Lima's ship (which is not the wedge wreck at pepper park) stayed intact wedged between to reefs. If Lima's ship had been in the eye wall like Salmon or Ubilla it would have been disintegrated the same as their ships.
   In some of the letters from the survivors they give fairly accurate distances to the salvage camps from Lima's camp at (27'15) and from his ship at (27'10) to the Capitiana (10 leagues away). After a month or two the distances between all the wrecks is stated as 15 or 16 leagues. The biggest problem with these numbers are people try to put them on a modern day map, that wont work unless you know how to convert them to Spanish measurements.
  Echeverez did have a couple ships separate from the fleet the day of the storm and a couple days before the storm. I think the wreck that Rex Stalker has in his area is the ship that left the day of the storm. The ship that left 2 days before the storm is wrecked farther north not sure if its north of St Augustine or South (that is a translation issue). I think the letter says "to the leeward of St Augustine" and the translator said North. The Griffon made it back to France and did not even know that there was a storm. He separated 3 days before the storm hit.

  There wouldn't have been a disaster if Echeverez didn't sail so slowly, holding up the entire fleet. Ubilla had to wait on him many times sailing up the channel. That's why the ships separated, they knew it was dangerous sailling the Bahama channel so slowly and they wanted to get out of there.


 


   
 

oh there is no doubt that the french vessel griffion was "forced" to sail with the fleet to prevent "news" leaks to pirate types -- their only choices were sail with the fleet or sit two additional weeks "in port" in havana before departing --easy choice for the french capt -- as the storm was approaching I'm quite sure he said screw those slow overloaded wallowing hogs --I'm getting the heck out of here. ( and by getting back ahead of the fleet he could tell folks the spanish treasure fleet was on their way inbound * -- little did he know at the time but not a one other vessel from that group other than his would make it back)

                 If it helps any,

                                      Just north of St. Aug. Inlet;  coins and personal item's, pottery
                         have been found  relating to the fleet.   but these items can come from a
                 anywhere.??

Since I'm located on the north-central Gulf Coast, i've spent most of my time researching local colonial wrecks.   However, as of late I've begun taking a strong interest in the 1715 fleet.

At the risk of being laughed out of the forum for suggesting it, has anyone considered the possibility that one or more of the ships, or siginificant chunks of them could have been carried over dunes between Lucie Inlet and Ft. Pierce and deposited into the Indian River? 

Sound crazy?  Well before you totally dismiss this notion, you must know I've lived my entire life on a coast that has had more than it's fair share of direct hits by major hurricanes and I've seen what they can do.  In 1975, the storm surge from Hurricane Eloise (only a Cat 2 storm) carried a 500 ton crew boat over the front beach and deposited it into the lagoon.  The surge from Hurricane Camile in 1969 carried several 100 ton trawlers through the town of Ocean Springs, Mississippi and smashed them in the back bayou.  In 1979 Hurricane Frederic carried a 3000 ton target ship from it's moorings in the Gulf, and over the dunes on Perdido Key only to be redeposited back in the gulf just offshore as the surge receeded.

Hypothetically speaking of course, if indeed a heavily-ladened, wooden, spanish galleon was exposed to these same forces and somehow managed to remain somewhat intact while being carried over a barrier island, it would probably be smashed to bits on the other side by its own weight and the subsequent forces of the surge itself.  If this happened, could it not be plausible that none of the salvage crew knew of these vessels because they had disintegrated after being deposited on the river side and were totally covered by water and sand?

Just a thought.

Pcola

You are right on in your thinking of a storm surge carring a ship over the dunes.....  In the Gulf, There are higher storm surges because the water has no place to go but its a little different on the east coast. We do have storm surges and i know of at least two vessel that are 100 yards back in the mangroves south of Ft Pierce but there is no evidence of a 1715 vessel crossing the dune. It is known that thru out history that certain areas on the coast would breach and open an inlet and it might stay open for a couple years and another storm could close it. I think maybe it's possible that some time in history a vessel got carried into the lagoon but i doubt 1715 fleet.

sapper 23 -- please note that salmon wrote the following info ----there is little doubt they sank on the high seas (ie in deeper water than the spanish could salvage at the time) because "wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the "north coast  / coast north"( folks dicker of which way is the proper translation) of st augustine.--- the 1715 era items you say come from just north of st augustine might be related to what salmon is speaking of in his sept 20th, 1715 letter.

I know of 2 places where debris crossed the dunes into the river from the 1715 fleet.  However, it is already under lease.  The debris were large chunks but didn't travel far over the dunes, and the dunes were quite narrow at those areas. The debris may be from one and the same ship or possibly 2 different ships. I have yet to locate any other debris from the fleet in the lagoon.

itmaiden

Since I'm located on the north-central Gulf Coast, i've spent most of my time researching local colonial wrecks.   However, as of late I've begun taking a strong interest in the 1715 fleet.

At the risk of being laughed out of the forum for suggesting it, has anyone considered the possibility that one or more of the ships, or siginificant chunks of them could have been carried over dunes between Lucie Inlet and Ft. Pierce and deposited into the Indian River? 

Sound crazy?  Well before you totally dismiss this notion, you must know I've lived my entire life on a coast that has had more than it's fair share of direct hits by major hurricanes and I've seen what they can do.  In 1975, the storm surge from Hurricane Eloise (only a Cat 2 storm) carried a 500 ton crew boat over the front beach and deposited it into the lagoon.  The surge from Hurricane Camile in 1969 carried several 100 ton trawlers through the town of Ocean Springs, Mississippi and smashed them in the back bayou.  In 1979 Hurricane Frederic carried a 3000 ton target ship from it's moorings in the Gulf, and over the dunes on Perdido Key only to be redeposited back in the gulf just offshore as the surge receeded.

Hypothetically speaking of course, if indeed a heavily-ladened, wooden, spanish galleon was exposed to these same forces and somehow managed to remain somewhat intact while being carried over a barrier island, it would probably be smashed to bits on the other side by its own weight and the subsequent forces of the surge itself.  If this happened, could it not be plausible that none of the salvage crew knew of these vessels because they had disintegrated after being deposited on the river side and were totally covered by water and sand?

Just a thought.

Pcola

And who knows how much new development has been built on top of "treasure" or "archaeological artifacts".  There have been several instances of construction crews finding treasure along the coast. What we don't know is if it was intentionally buried, or lost with time and sand, or washed up at the time of the disaster. But considering the tales I've heard I would say "buried".

itmaiden

You are right on in your thinking of a storm surge carring a ship over the dunes.....  In the Gulf, There are higher storm surges because the water has no place to go but its a little different on the east coast. We do have storm surges and i know of at least two vessel that are 100 yards back in the mangroves south of Ft Pierce but there is no evidence of a 1715 vessel crossing the dune. It is known that thru out history that certain areas on the coast would breach and open an inlet and it might stay open for a couple years and another storm could close it. I think maybe it's possible that some time in history a vessel got carried into the lagoon but i doubt 1715 fleet.

After the last hurricane, a ships keel was located west of the dunes near Normandy beach.  Tommy Gore noticed it also.  Turns out this timber had washed up on the beach and was drug by tractor to its western location.

This keel was from the SS America, from the 1800's.  All the timbers were on the beach.  I recovered one piece and gave it to the Elliott museum.  Unfortunately, some idiot at the state identified the debris a bridge timbers, and the 60' keel went to the dump.

Point is..stuff doesn't necessarily wash over the dunes!

did I mention my contempt for state experts?

bill - in - stuart...

If treasure was a snake it would bite you bill. Well almost. Don't discount waves and winds Bill.

itmaiden

Point is..stuff doesn't necessarily wash over the dunes!

["SideImagingSoft.com - Humminbird Side Imaging Forums"]

There are other threads on this topic from several years ago.  I remember seeing a picture somewhere of cannon and an anchor being found when a house foundation was being dug at the corrigans site.

I firmly believe there was some debris that washed over the dunes in other areas.  I have heard several people say they have fund coins along the bask side of the dunes on the indian river shore line.

Robert

I'm not saying it hasn't happened, just that there may have been intervention in some cases.  I have no doubt there is indeed stuff west of the dunes.  Dunes are comprised of wind blown sand, and are very fragile.  The timbers from the America were well up on the beach at Normandy, which was relatively steep.  Within a couple days the sea reclaimed all of the timbers on the beach, btw.  In any case, items in the dunes will settle pretty quickly and be covered with sand as vegetation reestablishes itself.

A couple miles north, the sea breached the dunes easily and was creating new inlets in a couple places.  Had this occurred in the area of the America, those items would have washed into the Indian River.  I'm also positive that much treasure was buried by survivors.  Unfortunately, these lands are owned by someone and are often difficult to hunt.  I did spend some time after the last storm hunting some of these exposed areas, to no avail.

Regarding "intervention", that is possible also. There are 2 sites I know of that were "haulover" sites in order to access the lagoon. One was in the Wabasso area, the other a road from the Mosquito Lagoon.  The Wabasso haulover site was chosen because of the narrowness and ease of crossing the dune area.

itmaiden

Into the storm…

These issues are maker-breakers for some of us.  Answers mean success in the hunt.  They are serious issues which surface at least once a year in this forum if not more often, charged by threads like this one, regarding the identity of the missing vessels of the 1715 fleet.  I have watched and read with great interest some of the information that has come to light over the last 5 or 6 years here in the Shipwreck forum and had to do some research on the matter myself while writing Tommy Gore’s book.  Of course, as a kid I had a copy of “Pieces Of Eight” which I presumed to be the definitive source of all things attached to the 1715 fleet, and as a worker bee on the salvage, also presumed that there were only a few wrecks that could be found.  Now that I think back, there were many silent indications of how little was actually known about the vessels and where they were.  That was forty years ago and I can vouch for the ignorance of  “twenty-somethings”.  There’s been a lot of digging in the last forty years and during thirty of those, I was not armed with a shovel...  but I still heard some rumors.

A number of things have changed since the publication of “Pieces Of Eight” to wit:

Fishers have cataloged and charted many latter discoveries on the wrecks and saved digital copies of the charts… a tremendous assistance, which can hardly be appreciated.

Dozens if not hundreds of new crews have set about excavating wreckage over the years.

New original lease areas were subsequently explored, producing new wreck sites.  Many of these are NOT in the current holdings of the Fishers.

The Florida master-site file was closed to the public.  We don’t know who found what and where they found it if it was not inside the original Real 8 - Treasure Salvors combine area(s).  This circumstance, by the way, represents a real opportunity for the Shipwreck Forum to supply a public service.  We should attract all the players whose sites are now closed by the BAR and publish their pink sheets (the copies of their daily logs).

There was a period of time where NO salvage data was reported to the state of Florida and that data has not been recovered from the Federal government… it is held by the Fed or in the estates of certain salvors (if it actually existed in some fungible form at all originally).

There have been a number of talented researchers who have published their findings concerning the 1715 wrecks, including Mendel Petersen, Carl Clausen, Bob Weller and Bob Marx.  And, certainly, don’t forget my hero, Charles Dana Higgs.

I have to rely upon the translations of Spanish documentation performed by others to make sense of the 1715 disaster, and Mendel Petersen has provided me with the most print I can get my hands on highlighting some of the key information.  His book “Funnel Of Gold”, published in 1975, sets out some first-person declarations that must be considered.  I quote…

“On September 20, he (Admiral Salmon) completed a letter to the King, in which he gave the account of the disaster in detail:

Even though I am greatly distressed it doesn't excuse my obligation to inform you of the unfortunate loss of the whole fleet of Mexico and the galleons of Tierra Firme, which occurred on July 31, having left Havana on the 24th, and having entered the canal we were hit by a great storm the 28th, which grew worse every hour. At first I had to run on the two lowest sails, then even though I lowered them the wind carried them away, broke the mainmast and shattered the rudder and tiller, and the bow was stove in. I dropped anchor in 12 brasas (60 feet) of water, then both cables broke, in 2 hours I was in 4 brasas (20 feet) of water, on the rocks, and at the second blow on the reef the ship split into 3 parts, the bottom sunk, and the bow and stern washed up Qn the beach, from which almost all were saved, although 82 were drowned. The flagship had sunk 2 leagues away 4 hours earlier with the loss of the General and 200 persons.

The leading Galleon and their flagship beached 5 leagues away and all the rest close together on the same island. The number thought lost is 9, and 2 missing but surely sunk, because we have sighted wreckage on the n. coast of San Agustin, Florida. ...”

So, the 60 foot depth line along the Treasure coast is roughly 10 miles from shore.  Therefore, Salmon’s boat was pushed shoreward, totally without sail or steering, at a rate of around 5 mph if it made it to the 20 foot depth in two hours time.  A pretty impressive drift rate!!  Some serious wind!!  Also, a clue regarding draft… 20 feet.  Overall, I’ve found most of the wreckage to begin in about 14 feet of water for the wrecks I’ve worked on (1715 wrecks).  I guess I really need to extend the search a ways out.  The remark about cited wreckage north of St. Augustine I tend to dismiss in view of the following.  I quote Petersen once more…

“According to a deposition of one of   the pilots, they had gone aground or had been wrecked between 27° 15" and 27° 50" north, a distance of about thirty-five miles. The survivors of each vessel were in some instances separated from the survivors of other ships and had no way of knowing the full extent of the disaster.

Between July 31 and August 6 or 7, Admiral Don Francisco Salmon surveyed the damage to the combined fleet and found all vessels wrecked or beached. Among the latter were three frigates.”

De Inda delivered his letters to the governor and gave a deposition in which he recounted what had happened:
He said at first, that…

the 30th day of the last month, July, being at latitude 28 degrees open sea, the said fleet and squadron of Tierra Firme, under the Captain of Sea and War Don Antonio Echiceis y Zubiza was attacked by a storm so strong that having maintained itself through to the next day on which they lost the greater part of the sails and masts and seeing it impossible to maintain themselves in the severe weather obliged the ships to beach themselves, with the loss of General Don Juan Esteban de Ubilla, their Captain and according to the news that came in later 200 men drowned with their Captain, the same thing happened to the flagship and most of the other ships, so of the said fleet as of the squadron, that in total there are eight lost that may be found from 27 degrees 15 minutes to 27 degrees 50 minutes [north].1”

27 degrees 50 minutes parallels the back porch of the McClarty museum.  27 degrees 15 minutes is about 10 miles south of the Douglas Beach wreck (Nieves ?).  This leads me to believe that there is a wreck far south that has yet to be worked, and, it is not in the Fisher holdings.  Furthermore, the fleet was at 28 degrees north when things began to go sour.  The Rex Stocker wreck is at approximately 28 degrees 2 minutes north. Hmmmmmm.  Also, there is the remark about the three, beached frigates.  Which would those be exactly?  Petersen did not say.  Also, according to the quotes, the storm actually started on the 28th, so the fleet wallowed for three days.  I am beginning to think that the storm actually organized itself right in the Bahama channel and that it was a very large creature and slow moving as it organized.  This would explain the illusion of an additional storm  following on August first… it was actually the rear eye wall of the storm.  We have read more than one reference to the ‘second’ storm, including the works of Bob Weller.  The rear eye wall would be the felon, which moved so much wreckage AWAY from shore.

If the storm was as I described and it took more than 12 hours for the eye to move across the peninsula from east to west, then the NE quad, the traditional widow-maker quadrant,  could possibly have had it southern traverse line roughly at the latitude of present-day Sebastian.  This line would generally transect the storm’s geometry at a midway point representing the mid latitude of its overall dimension on the longitudinal plane.  This would account for the lapse in time between the destruction of the first ship in the line onshore and her sisters following along further south.  Because the Sandy Point wreck was so completely destroyed, I would have to think that it was located on the southern extremity of the eye-wall.  This would mean that the eye of the storm was approximately 50 miles in width.  If it took 12 hours (or more) to pass a fixed point and it had to cover a distance of 50 miles to traverse the extents of the eye-wall’s diameter, it was moving at just a little over 4 miles per hour, possibly stalling as it came ashore (statistically the usual case).

Up until a few years ago, I always believed the ships were pushed ashore in a NW direction, and then possibly a NE direction with the passing of the eye-wall as I always thought that the storm was typical and moved from the SE to the NW.  With this latest idea of a direct traverse east to west, it would mean that the tangent eye-wall forces would force ships from the NE to the SW in the NE quad of the storm, and would tend to push the ships in the southern tangent directly to shore.  This is only of interest when you are trying to determine where wreckage was taken SEAWARD.  That wreckage trail is the one we now need to follow.  I have been going in the wrong direction.  The idea also clears up some confusion about the messy scatter in the Wabasso area which some  experts claim is part of the Corrigans wreckage.  I don’t think so.  I think that the stones, guns and anchors to the south of Wabasso are a separate vessel, but which one?  This theory also would give serious credence to the “cannon wreck” actually being crumbs of Ubilla’s capitana.

I would also like to point out that there is another serious contender for membership in the 1715 fleet, which lies near-shore that nobody seems to consider.  It is not in the Fisher lease areas, nor is it around Vero.  Some readers might know about it, and the state definitely knows about it.
 

The problem occurs when considering the location of wrecked ships was based on found wreckage on the beach. Considering how far flotsam can travel, especially in swirling waves and winds, it would be easy to be off 3/4 of a mile to a mile and even further.

So back to the drawing board.

itmaiden

but it still gives you a rough starting point

It is my understanding that the salvage boats can't get closer to the beach for salvaging when the water is only 6-8 feet deep. I find it astonishing that someone hasn't figured out a way to dredge the areas right near the shoreline. There must be a lot of treasure near shore under the sand. My two cents.

Did he make a "wreckage map " ? Surely there are some wreck maps out there in somebody's archives from then. By the time Spain or anyone else got there on later trips for salvage =  the seas and the Indians, as well as the survivors would have used the wood for fuel etc. Everybody's been working with those "rough" starting points.

I would think they would be in the records of the House of Aragon.

itmaiden

but it still gives you a rough starting point

Has anyone on here ever taken all of this information and tried some computer modeling?

Educated guessing sometimes works.

I've been wondering this myself. Fishers did make maps of wreckage as part of the archaeological work they had to do, but I doubt anyone has previously done an overlay of possible hurricane movement in relation to wreckage found. (They probably are now).

I've been trying to visuallize these wrecks based on Fishers online data and other information I have read, or discovered myself. The angle the Hurricane came in at is crucial to all of this. Some think it came from dead East, old stories say the winds were blowing NW.  My personal opinion is that is was blowing NW. I am working on the angle based on my own research and any online data.

If I knew a good computer guru I could trust we could work on this together. 

Hint, I do think  it was a wide angle in relation to the coast which may account for the difference in opinion as far as approaching direction.

itmaiden

Has anyone on here ever taken all of this information and tried some computer modeling?

Educated guessing sometimes works.

Down. 

    Which direction did the tons of Gold end up at?

  Dell

signumops

I have a niece. She has a maiden name of some old French Tampa Bay pirates. Bagget, as in, Baggess. Shrimp Boat "Rebbeca Lee", her fathers floundered vessel on Cape Canaveral.
She has a 2 year degree in computer technology. + 2 year degree in photography, + a Masters Degree in meteorology. A RON JON Surf Shop Surfing Instructor! I am so proud of her.
She is playing New mother at this time, but she may have some skills you are interested in or know someone who does have the skills you are looking for.
About the direction of the hurricane so possibility of where another ship went down according to your theory in  model.
Me. I think it was across the state like Charlie. But Jeanne came threw that area like the way you figure.
I found the symbol, avatar, during Gordon. That pesky storm that stalled off the coast for 3 whole months in 1994 into 1995.
beachbumbecca@yahoo.com

  Merry Christmas Everyone!!!


  From all my work on 1715 fleet for the past 17 years i have found that the ships all came ashore in a similar crescent or "U" shaped pattern. The ships were blown down from the north then east then south east then west.....  I have lots of data to back this up. In order for this pattern to happen the hurricane had to have come in from the east or south east.... which is the direction that most Atlantic storms hit us in....

   Most of the upper structure ended up near the beach and travelled north for many miles.... The "Gold" travelled with it spilling little pieces as it traveled...

 

SE going NW

Much of the debris I have seen confirms pretty much what you are saying here at least for the upper part of the fleet. But the wild card is wave direction which can be varied in hurricane winds because there are smaller wind currents inside the larger ones which can blow in other directions.  I was fascinated by the remnants of a tornado that came across Arkansas. I should have made that plural.  The 2 tornados had already lost their form by the time they crossed Western Arkansas going to Eastern Arkansas, but the main one was quite large and did incredible destruction before it arrived on the opposite side of the state. I stood outside and was awestruck by the unusual and strange wind patterns. There were the outer swirling winds which were by this time at a much lower and gentler speed. As it moved counterclockwise East, other winds within were blowing down, up southward and back up again,as well as winds blowing in other directions. The most fascinating one I saw I call a "starburst".  It was like a mini-explosion of wind and it blew out in all directions like when fireworks go off. The effect other winds within a hurricane have on waves and in combination with obstacles such as reefs provide varience.

But the main pattern of Hurricane movement does make a good model as a starting point for tracking the debris. Now add weight and ship condition/construction in as a factor. The Flagship purportedly headed East into the wind, and we do not know how many other ships may have been doing the same. I suspect this decision is what resulted in the account of the Flagship tearing apart into shreds. Counterforce such as this would be extremely damaging.

This is a good subject, and provides us all with much thought and more calculated work to do in locating the wreckage.

itmaiden

  From all my work on 1715 fleet for the past 17 years i have found that the ships all came ashore in a similar crescent or "U" shaped pattern. The ships were blown down from the north then east then south east then west.....  I have lots of data to back this up. In order for this pattern to happen the hurricane had to have come in from the east or south east.... which is the direction that most Atlantic storms hit us in....

   Most of the upper structure ended up near the beach and travelled north for many miles.... The "Gold" travelled with it spilling little pieces as it traveled...

 

   I believe once they realized that the ships distruction was eminent they grounded the vessels to try and save as much as possible. The only ship that did not break into pieces was Lima's because i believe he was in the eye of the storm..


 

I have read accounts that have documented a massive storm crossing the southern Bahamas a day or so before the fleet wrecked.  These storms often follow the warm water of the gulf stream and intensify.  The leading edge of the storm has winds from the east, and below the eye, from the west.  All hurricanes (northern hemisphere) spin counterclockwise, just the opposite of what you would expect.

  It all depends where you are in reference to the storm... A storm like Jean (2004)  that came in from the east the leading edge at Sebastian was NNE....  I was on the beach as the storm came in!!!   as the storm moved inland the winds became more E then SE then S....  once the storm passed the winds were out of the west....

   The strongest winds were out of the east as the eye passed south of Sebastian.... I think this storm was real close to what happened in 1715..... If the storm had moved N then the Griffon would have known that a storm had passed and wipped out the fleet.... so it must have moved east to west because the Griffon didn't even know a storm had hit...

  I found a large anchor on Cabin wreck a few years ago out in about 40+' of water... the anchor is dug in with one fluke and the shank is pointed 190 degrees toward a small ballast pile in 30' of water due east of Cabin main pile...  The anchor shank is 9' long with a large ring and the 1 fluke that was facing up is now gone.... I believe this was a last chance effort to hold the ship from the reefs but once they realized they were doomed they let the ship come in to shore. The direction the anchor is pointed tells me what direction the ship blew down on.....

 

Interesting that the anchor was still wedged in. Thanks for sharing !

itmaiden

  I found a large anchor on Cabin wreck a few years ago out in about 40+' of water... the anchor is dug in with one fluke and the shank is pointed 190 degrees toward a small ballast pile in 30' of water due east of Cabin main pile...  The anchor shank is 9' long with a large ring and the 1 fluke that was facing up is now gone.... I believe this was a last chance effort to hold the ship from the reefs but once they realized they were doomed they let the ship come in to shore. The direction the anchor is pointed tells me what direction the ship blew down on.....

 

The eye will be on a line 90 degrees to the direction of the wind...North wind (FROM the north), the eye is due east.  This agrees with your assessment, Goho.  

Let's speculate on this a little further.  The winds from the east from the storm form huge waves and a modest increase in sea level in our east coast area.  Once the eye passes, the waves diminish, and the winds from the west are partly broken by the barrier island.  The point being..the impact from the storm is greater at the beginning than the end, even if the winds at the end were stronger.  The ships were already wrecked, thus were unlikely to be blown offshore.

Thoughts?

I'm glad to see this thread is stirring up peoples thoughts and freindly debate 

Over the past 40 years, various salvors have figured out where much of the 1715 wreckage came to rest. There is much more treasure and artifacts to be found however. (And a few entire missing ships)

What is obvious is that we need to stop looking in the same places that have been hit continuously for 40 years. That is why Taffi Fisher is changing some of the rules in 2010.

Trying to recreate the hurricane helps...but only if we know where each ship was in relation to others when the storm hit and how a particular type of ship might react in hurricane force winds.

What GOHO mentioned is correct......after the ships ground onto the reefs and the upper decks came ashore, much wreckage was carried north for many miles, dropping bits and pieces along the way.

He also has the right idea, keep magging away and checking the hits, and punching holes in new areas that have never been worked.  It takes time, but eventually someone is going to discover something interesting.

Goldminer49 quoted a passage to me from Mila's hurricane book for an event in 1715.  While Spanish authorities in Havana and elsewhere said nothing about it, seems there was a storm that passed across Hispaniola at the appropriate time, northbound.  Now, not much was said, if anything, in Freeport, about this event, but, I have constructed a graphic model (I love playing with my crayons!) that takes the storm north from Hispaniola and round-house punches the Florida coast after grazing the northnern Bahama bank.  This would be in keeping with Bill Moore's contention that the storm was 'south' trending.  Its an unusual circumstance that might be recalled from Katrina who passed across the peninsula farther south in a similar south-trending arc before curving north toward the Mississippi delta.  



GOHO states that his observations of the 1715 wrecks would indicate a U shaped dispersal.  This would seem to hold true for the Cabin wreck and for the Nieves (Douglas Beach if you prefer to argue the real identity) if you look at the mapping produced by Carl Clausen and Lou Ullian in "Pieces Of Eight".  I don't have much experience with the Nieves, but I do have some with the Cabin wreck site, so, just for chuckles, I have some pretty decent rectified comparisons that support GOHO's observations... to a point.  The next illustration is an aerial of the Cabin site shot in 1967, a year before I actually got to work there.  The photo is important because the buildings, as they are located in this photo, can be used to inverse the bearing shots that State inspectors made while working on the Real 8 boats.



The next illustration is a rectified scan of the Clausen-Ullian map published in 1966.  I would have to think that most of this material was evident to the eye without excavation, per se, for the most part.  This was before anybody else actually got to dig there (well, yes, there was a hard-hatter from Fort Pierce that took his shot early on, and who knows what McKee may have done there, but, I stand un-corrected at the moment).  The rectification was done using the previous photo along with some other DEP setback monumentation with all of the samples cast in State Plane coordinates, NAD83, Zone 901, Survey Feet.



I've overlaid the Clausen-Ullian map with transparency on the photo to support the fidelity of the map in this next illustration. U shaped might be better described as a 'checkmark'.  Don't laugh: this discrimination may lead to a pot of gold!



The Fishers provide their contractors with data in the form of plots for each of the sites under their control.  These plots are generally on E size paper, in color, with a key and sexigesimal degree grid overlay.  They are invaluable.  But, one must remember that some of the data may be questionable... after all, the State quit providing data-recorders many years ago, and there are any number of reasons why contractors may fail to accurately report their fixes.  None-the-less,  these plots provide us with some invigorating evidence which both supports the U shape dispersal theory, along with evidence that there may be more to consider.  If you have never seen one of these plots, here's one for the Cabin wreck that I scanned and rectified to match my mapping software so that I can put our blowers where nobody has previously dug (supposedly).  The pink circles represent holes dug that produced nothing.  The blue holes represent holes that produced silver.  There are numerous other items that are color coded, and there are alpha-numeric markers in the circles which you can not see at this scale.  Obviously there was silver found all over the place.  The grids each represent a square of about 64 feet on a side with each tick measuring about 6.4 feet.  The average circle symbol is about 18 feet across at this scale.



I took the Fisher chart and laid it over the Clausen-Ullian map to produce the next semi-transparent illustration.



Previously, I wrote that I thought the storm was very large and I still think that it re-organized over the Bahamas and really built a huge circulation.  In my first illustration the eyewall is about 112 miles in diameter.  As the center of circulation approached the fleet, as seen in the next illustration, the northern-most vessels were driven ashore in a shorter period of time, while the souther-most members of the fleet were probably driven to shore on a more exaggerated tangency than those toward the north.  It would be hard to illustrate this without resorting to animation.  Its important to remember that the winds in the forward-right quadrant of the storm are the firecest (I messed up my explanation of this in my previous post... I was thinking of a north-bound storm at the time, not one on the path I illustrate here).



Moving at 5 miles an hour, it would take about 24 hours to pass the area of Vero as seen in the next illustration.  Therefore, if Echeverz was really at the Popa, which I think was probably in the area of south Vero Beach, he would experience a 'second storm' a day after being wrecked.  If a ship was below the east-west plane of the storm, it has more of a tendancy, in this model of being swamped further from shore.  What does this mean for the vessel supposedly lost below the present-day Hutchinson Island power plant ?



The rear action of the eye-wall is definitely the one of interest!  The rear eye-wall did what the forward eye-wall did not do... it spread wreckage back out into water that could support the reduced weight of the shattered timbers, floating bodies, boxes, hull parcels and baggage.  This means that we can continue to find more treasure in subsequent explorations.  That's why this whole study is worthwhile.

Great work Terry and I think you are on to something. I have something to add. In 1986 Spyglass Publications came out with a chart called "Old Shipwrecks of Florida's S.E. Coast" and it has computer generated spread patterns of the 1715 fleet. Here is a scan of the cabin wreck. You will notice it matches your spread pattern exactly!

There is an Ancient Egyptian tool. I cannot recall what the name of it is. Maybe someone is familiar with it. It goes like this;
There are 2 dials and a peepwindow on the spin dial. It sits on a tripod. 4" tall.
 :icon_farao:There are 40 Egyptian calendar Years. Say you were born mid October 1960. That would make you a Calendar 13. Dial a year and month to find the calendar year.
Okay, then you find The years that came on calender 13 and notice the identical, or similar, type weather patterns. Just like the year you were born.
What I am saying is August 1st. 1715 has calendar year number, between 1-40.  
Since hurricane records have been kept and sweep through now all the calendar years, there maybe this similarity and to modern day!
Pretty cool instruments. I know they exist and have seen one in The Man Myth and Magic Encyclopedia. My father owns one, but I do not know where he put it.
I have talked to Egyptians of modern times including Hieroglyphic experts of Egypt. They did not know the machine.
There are only 24 volumes to man myth and magic. Cocoa Beach Public Library has the set. It may take  awhile.
Update:01/04/10: At Library now. Have #1 in hand. Dial not in "Aztec" section either. So, back to good old dad. He has it in a storage unit . This could take really long to get because he is on Java. He has the key to it.. 
Update:12/30/2009 My father wrote in emailfrom other side of world,Retired Satellite Communications Sr. Specialist:

"Do you know what it is called? Maybe "A Perpetual Calendar" BUT remember . . . it is valid only for the Gregorian Calendar years, not for years when the old Julian Calendar were used. If you need more info on that, Google "Julian Calendar" and "Gregorian Calendar".  Lots of interesting info there.
Archaeologists, treasure Divers, and 1715 Plate Fleet enthusiasts are trying to piece together the weather pattern of 08/01/1715.  Is that 08 Jan or Aug 01? Probably the latter when a hurricane sank one of the Spanish treasure ships.
What calendar year would that be?  Don't understand the question -- 1715 was 1715 Gregorian. Then from there we could match the weather pattern similarities and maybe figure which direction it came from.  Weather is like women's behavior - rarely predictable and behavior today can never be used as a logical determinate of what it was previously (except "unpredictable)."
Sorroque,'Perhaps his Best man Burt Bostram,professor of Astronomy has something???. Arizona State University'.

there are patterns to things that we as humans do not seem to connect or get due to our short life spans * say halleys comet for exsample ( how long did it take mankind to "notice" it and time its passing cycle ?)----- with its orbit or cycle being 76 years --a person would say need to be say 5 and see it again at say 81 to remember it having occured before and then recotd the "prediction" that it would occur again in 76 years --often there are patterns that due to their long time lengths --might not have been "noticed" by mankind since they span more than a normal lifetime. but a careful study of the past may reveal --unknown knowledge

 

  Goldminer... if possible i would like to georefference that 1966 or 67 chart that you displayed...  you could then bring into goggle earth or most other mapping programs and get your GPS numbers from it....

      I really do not hold alot of faith in the old mag map that Classen did....   they used inferior equipment and they really had no way to position themselves accurately. i have georeferenced his map and overlaid unto all of my data and to be honest it doesn't tell me anything we already didn't know. It might have been top of the line in the 60's but its garbage today.

  The Hurricane map shown above i think greatly resembles how the storm came in... i have magged several of the wrecks now and they all have a similar u shape pattern to the debris trail.

Hey GOHO:
Goldminer49er did not provide that data, I did.
I could not provide the illustrations in my previous post if I had not already geo-referenced the pictures.  I use the Tatuk Aerial Image Corrector to setup the world files for the pics and then I put them into my own software to measure, layer, label and examine, ect.  I am showing some mag data here furnished by the Rathmann Group overlaid on the 1967 aerial.



I would give you the file, already rectified, but my world files are always in State Plane Coordinates, so few software packages make use of them directly.  But, here is a snapshot with some reference points set out in decimal minute notation if you want to give it a shot.  I am sorry that they are not in full decimal degree notation... if I remember correctly, you have to use decimal degrees to rectify an image for Google.



And, as for Google, here is the Clausen-Ullian chart laid over a snapshot of the Cabin wreck site taken July 7th, 2005.  The photo is taken from Google Earth (you have to use the history dial-back feature to see this particular shot).  The boat that is sitting on the border of the honeypot is your boat.  The C-10 boat (the Lobsterman) is the boat I was working on and it is in the lower right of the photo.  I guess the Clausen-Ullian chart must be fairly accurate... Yes, No, Maybe?

One addition to your model....once the storm hit the Florida mainland after approaching from the east, it appears to have taken a northerly direction from there on. According to archival documentation, the same storm hit St Augustine a day or two later.

Don Miguel de Lima to the Duque de Linares:

"The certainty of it is, Sir, that the storm was a very bad one......God permit they have escaped, however within the populated region of La Florida the storm wrought great damage, tearing apart the great wall of the Presidio Castle according to a letter written to me by the Governor of said place."

On another note, would anyone care to speculate where the salvage camp was for the Capitana at Winter Beach? I heard of some intersting artifacts being found north of "F" marker when they were putting in that condominium back around 2000 or so.

Tom

 I can use any coordinate system or convert to any other coordinate system....   

    When i return home from my trip i will post my map of the Cabin Wreck. I have magged from shore out to 40+ feet of water. I have probably 1000 to 1500 targets from .25nt to over 1000nt. I used the Geometerics 882 cesium with the mag only 1 to 1.5 meters above the bottom and i ran 25' passes. With all the targets plotted over all excavations you can clearly see the debris trail and how the ship moved and broke up. The Geometerics mag is so sensitive i was able to find single spikes and cannon balls lying in the debris field. All my Lat and Longs and Mag data were recorded usind submetered DGPS at a rate of 10HZ.

   I found the impact area offshore in around 30+' of water. There were broken and shattered ballast, timbers and a piece of the keel. I also found spikes, mortar balls, musket balls and ceramics. There is another area of ballast just inshore from the impact area that has probably 5 tons of ballast. Out to see from there i found 4 ketch style anchors which look like they were used to buoy the site. The large anchor i found pointed right to this spot. I didn't find any coins or "treasure" in this area but i still have some excavating to do.


  The Claussen map really only shows the cannons and anchors inshore. There are some targets offshore but they had no GPS just beach markers and bouys to mark their position. When i overlay Claussens map onto my own i can see the error clearly.

  I will post mine next week!!!!

 
 
   


   

I remember reading an account of the hurricane passing through the lower Bahamas before proceeding up the Florida channel, following the gulf stream.  This track would have allowed the storm to intensify dramatically.  I still feel that once the ships were wrecked, they back side of the storm, and its winds FROM the west, contributed little to the destruction, but may have spread debris just a little.

I remember reading an account of the hurricane passing through the lower Bahamas before proceeding up the Florida channel, following the gulf stream.  This track would have allowed the storm to intensify dramatically.  I still feel that once the ships were wrecked, they back side of the storm, and its winds FROM the west, contributed little to the destruction, but may have spread debris just a little.

Hey Billinstuart

Can you remember where you read that?  The whole trick is to know where the storm came from, where it made landfall (IF it made landfall) and where it went.  Tom has pretty good evidence that it went north... or, maybe it was actually heading west and made landfall in the False Cape area , or maybe even Edgewater.  All sorts of possibilities.  I remember that Mitch was so large it produced the biggest waves onshore in the Keys that I saw in a 12 year span, and Mitch was a thousand miles away at the time.

Hey GOHO

Looking forward to it!

Dell:
I don't think that I will be working the Cabin.  I am more interested in the Wabasso area and Sand Point.  Plan to stick with Taffi's grid award strategy and already have one working.  There's another 'retired' hunter who has put me onto something.

I can use any coordinate system or convert to any other coordinate system....   

Hey GOHO:
I can email the images and worldfiles to you as attachments.  Where to?

 send them to goldhoundgreg@hotmail.com

  you said it was referenced to State Planes i need to know if it was NAD83 or NAD27 and also Feet or Meters...


  Thanks,

   Is there a particular coordinate system you would like the photo in?

sign, I don't have the reference at hand (hurricane in Bahamas) but it seems like it was an observation from maybe a priest or missionary in the southern Bahamas.  I found it on an internet posting/site.

Had it followed the Florida channel, the initial winds would have come somewhere from the east to the north, depending on the exact relation of the eye to the ships.

 send them to goldhoundgreg@hotmail.com

  you said it was referenced to State Planes i need to know if it was NAD83 or NAD27 and also Feet or Meters...


  Thanks,

   Is there a particular coordinate system you would like the photo in?

Greg:
They are State Plane, Florida East (Zone 901), U.S. Survey Feet, NAD83 (actually NAD83 HARN, but that should make no difference at this small scale).  The world files I will send are in that projection.

If you wanted to post them to Google, you'd have to do it, cause I don't really work with KML.  Everybody else here might like to see them there.  I'd love to see the Fisher Chart set on Google... all the contractors could then use them as they like and I think that it might generate some serious public interest in the contributions of private salvors.  God knows that a failure of agreement between Fishers and Florida will be the death of our contracting.  NOBODY will be able to dig anywhere if Florida's bureaucrats get their way.

sign, I don't have the reference at hand (hurricane in Bahamas) but it seems like it was an observation from maybe a priest or missionary in the southern Bahamas.  I found it on an internet posting/site.

Had it followed the Florida channel, the initial winds would have come somewhere from the east to the north, depending on the exact relation of the eye to the ships.

Bill:
It would really make a big difference in how things lay to know which direction that storm came from.  Bill Moore says it was south-trending.  You imply it was north-trending, and so do some other folks here.  I always assumed it was north-trending too.  But if it was not, then, possibly it was north-trending but passing parallel to the east side of the Gulf Stream, which is about the only solution feasible according to the contributors on this thread.  I don't believe a 'Wilma-like' storm passing up the peninsula itself would suck in the ships the way these were.

  This has been the biggest problem since they found the wrecks in the sixties....   everyone guessing and passing it off as how it happened!!!!  I have spoke with several old school hunters and i have come to one conclusion, most have no idea what happened in the fleet....
   I write this only because i have done so much work on the sites. I have surveyed the 1715 wrecks more than anyone i know using state of the art equipment. In the old days they magged until they got a hit then dropped buoys and looked for the target, never really doing a good survey and they never were able to accurately map the sites.
   I have spent the last 7 years mapping the 1715 sites using a cesium mag running tight passes and not stopping until the survey is complete. The detail that i am able to get using this technique is amazing...  Unless you see it first hand its hard to believe. When i plot my targets the scatter trail is very visible and i have verified many of the targets as shipwreck. The cesium is so sensitive that i have found single ballast stones in 30' of water.
  What i am getting at is the mag tells me how the ship came in and where the material went, I DON'T HAVE TO GUESS...  when i compare the scatter trails to each other there really is only one conclusion on how the storm could have scattered the the wrecks the way that it did. If you look at the history of hurricanes that develop in July and August and compare with how the ships broke up the Storm had to come from easterly direction.......

   According to the Spanish archives, one account states that "the sun never rose that day"....  and also another states that "the winds picked up fresh from the NE and at the height of the storm the winds were ENE" also they were near the Cape at 28 degrees and were blown down, a southerly storm would have blown them into the cape shoals.

  How can a southerly storm create winds like that or scatter the wrecks in a " U " shaped pattern?
 The reason many believe the storm came from the south is because some of the wrecks "appear" as though they came in from the SE...... but that's an illusion..........

  Hurricanes are very large storms, one could sink the fleet and hit St Augustine at the same time.....  i have seen storms the size of Texas!!!!!  Remember "Floyd"   If a storm was headed north i think it would have sunk the Griffon too but they didn't even know a storm had passed.....

   My Conclusion......   The scattered debris trail of the wrecks tells how the ships broke up no matter what people guess happened. Since no one i know has the survey data like i collected all that many people can do is guess. I am sharing alot of info because i enjoy discussing the disaster and everything that i am saying is based on fact!!!!   I approached the 1715 fleet with an open mind and let the data tell the story. 
 

 

GOHO:  NE winds occur on the NW side of the storm, and the eye will be SE of the location of the NW winds.  This occurs if the EYE is moving north, or coming from the south.

  Think about it... the storm is moving west... if the eye is below me the winds will be N then NE then E then SE then S then SW. Anything above the eye will travel in a "U" somewhat
  I sat on the beach during hurricane Jean at treasure shores.... the winds before the storm hit were N and NE, during the storm the strongest winds were E to ENE early the next morning the winds were SE then SW by the afternoon. The eye hit in St Lucie, Sebastian winds were constant never slacked only increased until the next day when the storm passed.

  Whats the confussion?

   If i was south of the eye then the winds would be different and if the eye hit me then i would have had N then slack then S.

Facinating conversation, I hope this thread leads to a "National Geographic" moment for you guys. What an awesome thread.

Man Myth and Magic Encyclopedia at the Cocoa Beach Public Library is missing volume 1. This particular volume contains ans Aztec Calender. It could be the magic that has the instrument of the 4o calendar years on it.
While I was reading searches, an interesting fact came up. Earth changes and so do climates because of the changes. This instrument shall give something to go on.
I shall update this when I get the information. Update:01/04/10: At Library now. Have #1 in hand. Dial not in "Aztec" section either. So, back to good old dad. He has it in a storage unit . This could take really long to get because he is on Java. He has the key to it..  
Well here is 'sorta' the information 'like' I was looking for. Although this information is correct it is not,!, come from the device that calculates the years to celestial coincidence through the machine I mentioned;
1st January 1715 CE is a Tuesday.  1715 is not a leap year. Based on Calendars, not the instument.
The following calendar years in the range 1715 through 2030are identical to 1715:  1715   1726    1737   1743   1754     1765    1771   1782   1793  1799   1805   1811   1822   1833  1839   1850   1861    1867   1878   1889   1895   1901   1907   1918    1929   1935    1946    1957   1963    1974   1985   1991   2002   2013   2019   2030
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/sTBukDar6vE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/sTBukDar6vE</a>

At any given time, the relationship of the eye to the wind direction is known (90 degrees), but the only way to tell the direction of movement of the eye is to plot the CHANGE of wind direction.  If you tell me "the wind is from the North", the eye will be to the East at that instant. 
The coriolis force bends the winds blowing into the eye (low pressure) to the RIGHT.  This bending component imparts a counterclockwise spin to the hurricane in the northern hemisphere.  That's why they spin counter to what you'd expect.  The immediate wind direction is always perpendicular to the center of rotation.

the wind, the wind cried the forlorn sailors of old. --- when a hurricane is running due east -- the winds in the area directly in front of it go southward --- due to the hurricanes "counterclock wize spinning action"  the winds blow to the southward or "downward" (thus sailing vessels ships caught in the front of it trying to go north or in the top left area in front of the storm would be pushed / pulled downward by the winds - basically being sucked back directly into the "front" of the storm) and also pushed inward as the storm closed in on them ( being it was going eastward) -- thus pinning them to the shoreline --driving them ashore -- if as it approached land fall the same storm stalled offshore for a day  (after the fleet was wrecked already) -- thus the "lull" of a day --( the fleet wreck site area was in the "eye" of the storm  --then regathered strenght and headed northward along the coast hitting st augustine along its way --( the fleet being hit by the "second storm " or rear wall of the hurricane as it headed northward --- that would give the griffon (who split from the slow sailing overloaded main fleet BEFORE the main storm hit the fleet )---the time it needed to sail north for a day and to then sail due westward -- thus north sailing over the top edge of the strom as it headed east ward --then being to the west of it as it went up the coast later on -- thus they were in perfect position to miss the storm's effects.

I think the storm came from the east / south east quarter towards the fleet -- with its southerly winds preventing them from escaping to the north trapping them into the shallows near shore --after wrecking them it stalled off the coast for a day with them in the eye ---thus having a "lull" for a day --then the rear wall of the hurricane hit them as it moved north --the famous second storm--it rebuilt and the headed north along the coastline --hitting st augustine as well.

Maybe this will end some of the speculation about where the hurricane of 1715 came from.
This is from Dr. Jose Carlos Millas excellent work on Caribbean hurricanes.
 “Don Dionisio de Alcedo gives the same date ( for this disaster ) [referring to Fernandez Duro’s account of the fleet loss] as the one that we have given, which is also the same one found in the narrative of the Italian traveler in his Relazione e giornale…”

 Dr. Millas:

"This hurricane of at least normal intensity, crossed over the seas north of the Province of Oriente, Cuba, and the southern Bahamas, moving in a west northwesterly or northwesterly direction."

According to the historian Shepard (1831, app. XXI):  “1715” All the cocoa-trees in Saint Domingo suddenly destroyed.”

Dr. Millas again:

“As small cocoa trees cannot be destroyed by moderate winds, the disaster that occurred in Santo Domingo has to be explained by the existence of a hurricane.

There can therefore be no doubt that a hurricane crossed over Santo Domingo in 1715 .”

From Santo Domingo, crossing over seas north of Oriente, Cuba and southern Bahamas, moving in a west northwesterly or northwesterly direction,THEN hitting central Florida COULD have taken a path similar to Betsy in 1965.
 

Thanks, Goldminer..that's the reference I read somewhere.  Crossing the southern Bahamas, the storm likely followed the warm waters of the Florida Current for a while.  If so, it intensified from the warm water fueling the storm.

I personally concur with Ivans assessment of the track 100%, especially considering the south Bahamas report.  However, we're all just speculating.

  Ivan, I think you are right that the storm could suck a vessel down and into the eye but i do not believe it happened on 1715 and here is why....

   If the fleet was in the open Atlantic then yes maybe what you said could have happened but they were in the most dangerous places to be caught in a storm, between Florida and the Bahamas and the Spanish knew this. They tried to sail away from the coast but were unable to because they could not tack to port or they would have hit the Canaveral Shoals and they could not tack to Starboard because of the strong winds. According to Salmon they raised the storm sails but the wind blew them away, their masts were broken and the rudder gone he dropped two anchors in 12 fathoms of water but they dragged until they were thrown on the the reefs at Palmar de Ayz in 4 brazas of water.
   No where in the archives does it even hint that they hung out in the eye of the storm. Salmon gives a time line of what happened, he said that at 2:00 am he sunk and that the capitana was 4 hours earlier. At the time of their sinking the winds were at there height from the ENE. If they were in the eye the winds would have been calm for sometime. According to Lima he lost his masts and also his rudder but i do believe that Lima was in the eye because his ship was the only one that stayed intact and Lima hints at the fact there were more than one storm. Lima's ship sunk at 10:00 am the next morning.
   
   Due to the fact the ships were in the channel they had no room to maneuver and yes they were sucked down from the Cape to where they were destroyed but they fought the storm and the seas and never experienced the eye only the eye wall. There was just no room for the ships to get out of the way or to "Lull" around for a day or two..... I also believe they grounded the ships on purpose once they knew they were doomed....

   The Hurricane could have taken a path a few points to the NW but not to much or the scatter pattern would not fit the wind pattern. The storm had to come from a easterly direction but not necessarily due EAST and the eye had to pass south of Capitana and Almiranta...  The Florida Coast where the wrecks happened is running on a NW to SE direction. A storm coming from the east would appear to be more SE if you were standing on the beach watching it come in. The way the wrecks are scattered on the sea floor tell how the ship broke up, it also tells what direction they broke up in, no matter what we believe happened.

    To Find the answer to "What direction the storm came in" we have to answer why is the scatter trail dispersed the way it is.....


  Happy New Year!!!!!!

Another historical document I reviewed stated that some of the ships were intact or in larger sections, but during subsequent years, repeated hurricanes and storms broke them up and scattered the wreckage. What I would ask Goho, is if the wreckage that appears to be running NW is just the "lighter" smaller stuff, or are any of the heavy pieces running that direction ?

itmaiden

 
    To Find the answer to "What direction the storm came in" we have to answer why is the scatter trail dispersed the way it is.....

  Happy New Year!!!!!!

Previously, I wrote that I thought the storm was very large and I still think that it re-organized over the Bahamas and really built a huge circulation.  In my first illustration the eyewall is about 112 miles in diameter.  As the center of circulation approached the fleet, as seen in the next illustration, the northern-most vessels were driven ashore in a shorter period of time, while the souther-most members of the fleet were probably driven to shore on a more exaggerated tangency than those toward the north.  It would be hard to illustrate this without resorting to animation.  Its important to remember that the winds in the forward-right quadrant of the storm are the firecest (I messed up my explanation of this in my previous post... I was thinking of a north-bound storm at the time, not one on the path I illustrate here).

[ ERROR: SPECIFIED ATTACHMENT MISSING ]

Moving at 5 miles an hour, it would take about 24 hours to pass the area of Vero as seen in the next illustration.  Therefore, if Echeverz was really at the Popa, which I think was probably in the area of south Vero Beach, he would experience a 'second storm' a day after being wrecked.  If a ship was below the east-west plane of the storm, it has more of a tendancy, in this model of being swamped further from shore.  What does this mean for the vessel supposedly lost below the present-day Hutchinson Island power plant ?

[ ERROR: SPECIFIED ATTACHMENT MISSING ]

The rear action of the eye-wall is definitely the one of interest!  The rear eye-wall did what the forward eye-wall did not do... it spread wreckage back out into water that could support the reduced weight of the shattered timbers, floating bodies, boxes, hull parcels and baggage.  This means that we can continue to find more treasure in subsequent explorations.  That's why this whole study is worthwhile.

[ ERROR: SPECIFIED ATTACHMENT MISSING ]

 Your sketches illustrate it perfectly. Depending on the angle of the hurricane coming to land and the ships positions in respect to it, they could be pushed down to the South, out to the East or NE, or NW to West.

 Anything that floated out to the SE, E, or NE before sinking would then stand a chance of getting pushed to the N by the Gulf Stream.

A lot the information here is third party based on some one else's opinion or writing (i.e. book). I would like to see original documents from the Spanish salvagers... A lot information is lost in translation especially when working with old documents.

Who can read 16-18th century Spanish in Florida today?

Laughed at ? No. That has been a subject around here more than once. However, a recent historical document I have ran across pretty well suggest that most of the ships were accounted for to some degree except for 2 that sank in deep water. There were a couple of ships  obliterated, though unknown to many, there was some salvage off of those ships apparently. I have to do more research on this document and the author though.
The author did a lot of historical writings back in his day.

Now as far as the Lagoon, I know of debris in one area that spans a fair distance but it is under lease already.  I was also examining what looked like some debris in another part of the Lagoon last night, but you got to understand that this Lagoon has been used for Steamboats, Fishing Boats and Recreation for a long time, and there is some junk in it.
You can always take the risk of diving in it with a MD and hope a boat motor doesn't clip you in the process, but as far as fulls size ships, I haven't seen any yet.  They would have to be well under the sand.  However, the ships of the fleet that would have had the most opportunity  to end up in the Lagoon have been well accounted for and heavily salvaged and one is being salvaged right now.

If you don't mind the gators and crocs...go for it, just not in mating season (around May).
And stay away from state protected areas.

However, PcolaBoy, Pensacola is a prime area, especially in that bay up there.

itmaiden

Since I'm located on the north-central Gulf Coast, i've spent most of my time researching local colonial wrecks.   However, as of late I've begun taking a strong interest in the 1715 fleet.

At the risk of being laughed out of the forum for suggesting it, has anyone considered the possibility that one or more of the ships, or siginificant chunks of them could have been carried over dunes between Lucie Inlet and Ft. Pierce and deposited into the Indian River? 
Pcola

   Here is the Cabin Wreck Map i said i would post when i returned home. I tried to post it with the aerial photos and NOAA chart attached but the file is way to big. This map shows only the Mag Targets and i have labeled what the larger targets are. If you notice the 9' Anchor it's pointing 190 degrees right to where the broken ballast is. This is the impact area where the ship first started to come apart. the Ship then moved east and south east then followed the beach north.

  The Hurricane in the early hours of the storm had winds from the NNE or 10 degrees.... Only a storm moving in an EASTERLY direction has winds from that direction.....

  Here is the same map only this one is overlaid with ballast stones (black circles) and Silver (blue circles) and Gold (red circles) each circle is the size of a blow hole (approx 18' dia).

  Here is one more map of the mag targets overlaid onto aerial photos.....  here you can see how the material is scattered on the reefs....   I am trying to show as much as possible without giving away all my secrets....

  OK, here is the cabin mag map overlaid on the aerial and only silver, gold, and ballast stones showing.....  The anchor with the 9' shank is upper left in the black background....... 

  If you look closely at the blue circles (silver) as you move north along the beach you can see trails of silver leading back out to sea...  this happened when the winds from the storm were out of the SW and W...... Thats why Salmon said that nothing from his ship washed ashore....  it was blown back out to sea!


 

Hey GOHO:
Appreciate your magmap!  I rectified it to State Plane and put it into my system and overlaid a grid and a digitized mag map from the Rathman group from way back.  Its purple in the pic below...



If I follow you, you say the anchor shank is laying about 190 degrees... I set that out from what I assume is the mag symbol for the anchor and traversed the line to what would be the cracked ballast... Do I have it right?

I don't believe that data in the line going to the N.E.  I think Roy Volker did that reporting and I think there may have been 'errors' in that.

The big questionmark hit is about 30 feet of water.  Nothing there visible but grass.

In this illustration, it looks like the boat hit bottom then went a little north of west toward shore (?)  That does not jive with the touchdown at the cracked ballast if we are right about the path.  Otherwise it looks like the cracked ballast were some that were dropped while the boat was moving to the S.E. from inshore...

  The trail of silver heading back out to sea is not Bogus...  I dug there myself and found coins leading out to sea in 30' of water.....  i admit that some excavation holes are bogus because Roy Volker and others thought they were sneaky and put wrong numbers down where they worked....


   Nice job with the overlay.... 

   Where the broken ballast is is a reef that comes off the bottom 3' or so.. i found timbers and other artifacts wedged in and around that reef..... 

   Salmon stated that his ship broke into 3 pieces.....  remember that where everything is lying is where it came to rest after the storm passed...   Some of the ship could have tumbled and rolled south of its present position. The key is that the winds shortly before the ship sank was NNE.

  Check this animation out of Hurricane Jeanne....
 http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/lo...ida/sfl-2004-jeanne,0,3954334.story

I think the storm that came toward the fleet from the lower southeast quarter -- wrecking the fleet as it approached it then stalled off shore as it approached the wrecksite area for a day (causing a day of decent weather as the wreck area was basically in the eye of the storm) however once the the storm rebuilt itself  --it then headed northward going along up the coast, hitting st augustine . the north bound rear wall of the storm as it went past the wrecksites would suck wreckage debris out to sea via  the counter clockwise winds , wave action and tides  --and cause sands to shift off shore as well covering some of it.

  Here i marked the most obvious directions that the wind had to blow, i also added a compass rose with magnetic north to help with direction, the NOAA chart adds water depth as well.... 

thank you goho---- as you can clearly see via your overlay the wave action from the hurricane came from the E - SE direction or from below the vessels right hand lower quarter --(for a north bound vessel running up the coast ) the counter clockwise blowing winds would make it impossibile to run north as the storm approached the fleet ,since the wind would be pushing any ships trying to go north back south into the front of the storm. ---as the storm closed in the ships turned their bows in the direction of the approaching storm in hopes of dropping anchor and riding the storm out as it closed in but it was too strong -- and they were blown into the shallows and wrecked

  Here is Hurricane Jeanne just as the storm came ashore. I believe a storm with a simular path is what wrecked the fleet. Notice that Lima's ship if it is in St lucie would have "Fared the best because of its location". Lima was in the eye of the storm no doubt but i believe the rest of the fleet fought the winds non stop until the storm passed. Here is an example of Hurricane Jeanne coming ashore and notice the cabin wreck being north of most of the other ships. The winds drive everything ashore then blow it northward.. Thats the only explanation i can find to explain the scatter of the wreck and coinside with the archival research.
     If anyone has any other ideas i really would like to hear it, thats why i am giving all this info out...  I think together with new ideas we will discover new things....

thank you goho---- as you can clearly see via your overlay the wave action from the hurricane came from the E - SE direction or from below the vessels right hand lower quarter --(for a north bound vessel running up the coast ) the counter clockwise blowing winds would make it impossibile to run north as the storm approached the fleet ,since the wind would be pushing any ships trying to go north back south into the front of the storm. ---as the storm closed in the ships turned their bows in the direction of the approaching storm in hopes of dropping anchor and riding the storm out as it closed in but it was too strong -- and they were blown into the shallows and wrecked

see the arrow by the 32 --that is the general track (direction) of the hurricanes approach with the storm surge / wave action -- the arrow by the 41 shows which way the counter clockwise winds would be coming from off the hurricance . blowing southward  ---  thus preventing any escape to the north * ---to the east was land and to the west of the fleet the storm -- south was no good either --  thus they were trapped and pinned in .

 the north facing arrow is which way it went after it stalled offshore and rebuilt and headed northward up the coast along the hurricanes new track --as it went north it sucked sand and debris from the wreck areas offshore as it cut the beaches --  thus the west facing arrow .  

remember how there was a hurricane type storm stalled below jacksonville this year for 4 days ? --

think if it had wrecked a fleet as it approached land --then stalled offshore and rebuilt before moving on to the north, eh?

  Here is the time line i have come up with....

  July 30Th -

   1. "The sun never rose this day" - the storm is approaching, winds pick up fresh from the NE, "We were 28 degree lat near Cape Canaveral"
   2. If the Almiranta wrecked at 2:00 am and Salmon says that " The Capitana of Ubilla wreck 4 hours earlier" then by 10:00 pm on July 30 the Capitana sunk.
   3. Lima - "All ships sunk by 10:00 am" on July 31.

   If the Storm was just approaching the morning of the 30Th and one ship sunk by 10:00pm all sunk within 24hrs of the first signs of a storm. To me i don't see that the storm had time to stall out....  Jeanne took almost that long but Francis took i think 36hrs.
   Lima does state briefly that "The storms of great winds continued" but i take that as maybe another storm hit them later like Francis and Jeanne did. (It happened with the Atocha?)
                   

   

 I think that the storm came in and the track did turn northward , I think it might have stalled for a bit as it changed direction --- giving the wrecked area a bit of calm as it rebuilt  -- thus the "second storm" the following day , was the rear of the rebuilt storm passing by as it went northward up the coast --how long the stall was is just a guess

Greg,
This website has tracks of T storms and hurricanes from 1851 to 2008. There are several storms per year of course, and it will take time to go through all of the years. If you pick a year, a map with that storm will pop up with information of all storms that year. Below the map there will be a list of data for all storms, click on one and only that storm will appear on the map. I found very little tracks that came from the EAST, and not a lot that actually hit Florida.
http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/hurrarchive.asp

Attached is a map of one of the 1926 hurricanes that I believe closely fits the 1715 blow.

that 1926 hurricane track would be a great deal like what I think the 1715 fleets hurricane track to be . thanks for the input

ran over santo domingo -- goes up the slot --over the southern bahamas and runs toward the coast turning northward as it gets close to the coast ---hitting st augutine --

but I think it at that point ---- it ran up the coast farther rather than going inland like the 1926 storm

Actually, going inland would explain why the Griffon made it back safely. Nice track comparison.

It is unlikely that there is a 1715 galleon by amelia island. I believe that all lost 1715 naos are in area off cape canaveral south. The amelia ship may be a smaller 'lancha' or other unrelated ship likely late 18th or early 19th century.

The fact is that the East coast of the US is littered with wrecks (thousands and thousands). Problem is not much is left to find easily.

V

["SideImagingSoft.com - Humminbird Side Imaging Forums"]

I hate that its gone, but Cornelius had started a thread called "the Wind" where we had discussed this topic.  I think the hurricane track posted above is very close as well, but I think it went inland, turned north and then came back off the the coast near Georgia. I forget where, but I believe there were some accounts of the storm at St. Augustine that talked about the wind directions that substantiated this.   

I had drawn a similar track and posted the image, but have since deleted it off my computer.

Robert

I personally think the vessel down at amelia island is a "rescue vessel" that was returning goods recovered off the fleet or maybe a looter vessel -- (that would acount for the 1715 fleet type items found thru the years there.) however I do not think at this time its one of the missing original fleet vessels -- I think that the "missing" original 1715 fleet vessels are near st augustine , and by the cape ( the Concepcion)

 please note ---the capt willaim fuller map of Nov 1769 clear shows a wreck off of what is the sandy isle in nassau sound *--- the later "bird" island seen on modern maps ---is the oyster bed shown just below the wreck -- most likely the vessel was trying to go thru the channel to get shelter behind the island in foul weather -- and went over the oyster bed --ripping out her bottom --sinking in the far side ---- of course the vessel had to sink BEFORE 1769 to be on a 1769 map -- english govenor of virgina spotswoods letter of oct 24th, 1715 states that a spanish vessel sent from havana --stopped at the fleet wreck site picked up vips and treasure and later wrecked about 40 miles north of st augustine --(which is exactly where the nassau sound wreck is located)

According to this website information, a hurricane apparently crossed the Bahamas in 1715.

http://www.candoo.com/genresources/hurricane.htm#1700

itmaiden

I remember reading an account of the hurricane passing through the lower Bahamas before proceeding up the Florida channel, following the gulf stream.  This track would have allowed the storm to intensify dramatically. 

What formation were they sailing in?
"I", or "Column".
"W", or "Wedge".
"V", or "V" formation.
"Line" formation perhaps? My guess is Line.   Europeans Love the Line formation.
It would also explain why they sunk in a row along the coast. I guess that they sunk near Melborne, (Shelbourne up until,1898).
I am going to invite my niece, the weather expert, to this colum.
1715 Jul. 30 coincides alright with the hurricane timeline for the disaster.

Other thoughts:
After seeing the beach shore, "The small wave Capitol of the World", with 30 foot waves crashing just 40 yards from shore and pitching objects such as sandbags high into the air during a Florida hurricane. I think that these ships were just pounded to splinters and bits!
If it was as big as the Cat.5 that hit Miami, then it is possible that some of the ships may have been carried up and over the dune and into the river.
I remember a picture from the Miami hurricane that showed a ship perched high in a tree!
 
"I emailed my friend who is a big hurricane expert. Hopefully he can give me some info on that storm because I don't know much pre-1930's when it comes to significant hurricanes. Minus 1900 Galveston of course. ", Rebbecca Lee Bagget.

the 1715 huuricane by historical records -- flatted the palm trees on santo domingo --- the record also states it ran over the southern bahamas -- it wrecked the fleet on the fla coast --and hit st augustune as well ---so its basic track had to be very similar to the 1926 at the very least till it hit st augustine to hit all those same places

  I also mapped the Capitana site (Corrigans site) even better than the Cabin Site... I found that the Capitana came down almost on a due north to south line. Remember the Capitana sank 4 hours earlier than Almiranta (Cabin site) so the winds 4 hours before the Almiranta sank were from due North...  If the Storm came from a SE direction i am not sure we would get due north winds... I can see a slight SE direction but if it was to far south then it doesn't match the scatter....

the 1926 hurricane ( which i think the 1715 one matched up with quite well track wize --at least till it hit st augustine at the very least -- see its track mapped out above in post # 85 bygoldminer* --comong out of the "slot" it  would be coming in toward the 1715 fleet roughly from E (90 degrees) to ESE (135 degrees)---say 110 to 115 degrees (average ) sinking the fleet as it approached --- as it approached land -- near the fleet wreck site  ---it then turned running northerly along the coastline just offshore until it hit st augustine as it passed -- I personally think it then broke pattern with the 1926 hurricane and stayed running northward along the coast -- the storm turning and the running northward is what allowed the griffon to escape --- as the hurricane was approaching the over loaded slow moving treasure fleet --the griffon and 3 other more lightly loaded vessels of Echeverz fleet ( the Concepcion, the El Ciervo, and the tabbaco hauling Nao San Miguel ) broke away from the fleet  fleeing northward -- the 3 Echeverz vessels were most likely headed to st augustine trying to seek "safe" shelter --the griffon went north as the storm closed in -- but unlike the others she then went westward as the storm turned hugging the coast line -- getting free of the storm as it went up the coast (she was on the far side of the hurricane to the west of it) and she went back to brest, france --the other 3 vessels did not turn westward, but stayed on a northerly course  which doomed them, as the storm turned and came north up the coastline it came upon them sinking them.

The spaniards knew exactly the locations of all the lost 1715 naos. The information is buried in the archives. Is anybody looking at this?

V

I have been away from Central Florida for over 25 years. I am ecstatic to find this website and this forum, especially. I have always wondered where the other ships were. Especially since in January 1984 I found this silver plate on the beach in the Melbourne Beach area. It measure 9.5" and weighs 530g.

It looks exactly like plates shown in Burgess and Clausen's book Florida's Golden Galleons, p134, copyright 1982. Anyone know of any other finds in that area such as this one?

This was a news story about the wreck at Melbourne Beach:

A flintlock pistol, a sword and a cannon possibly used by ancient mariners are making history teacher Tom Funk and his fellow ocean explorers eager for next year's diving season to arrive.

They found the weapons in late August from a shipwreck about a half-mile off Melbourne Beach, north of the Sebastian Inlet, and plan to search the wreck more when diving conditions are at their best, usually about late May to October.

Funk and his partners hope the wreck is from the famed 1715 Spanish Silver Plate Fleet. The fleet of 11 galleons set sail from Havana in 1715 laden with jewels, gold and silver, but ran into a hurricane along Florida's east coast.

"Ten of the 11 ships were destroyed," said Funk, an archaeologist who teaches history at Satellite High School, in Satellite Beach. "Seven have more or less been found."

The shipwreck sites include spots near Fort Pierce and Sebastian, and the ships' high-value cargo gave the Treasure Coast its name. For the past decade, Funk and his partners have been surveying, exploring and researching what might be another of the treasure ships, in 43 feet of water off Melbourne Beach.

While exploring the wreck in late August, they found several artifacts that boosted their hopes.

"Our artifact collection is pretty interesting," Funk said. "We have enough artifacts, I think, to show what period they belong to."

There's the intact, silver-handled pistol and what appears to be a boarding sword, which has a curved blade and was known to be used by fighting mariners. The collection also includes some cannon balls, pewter plates and a stack of silver platters, which Funk said are beautifully embossed.

"They look like a big turkey platter," he said. "We're sending (the collection) to a conservation lab for more study."

In the meantime, Funk and his partners will work on renewing the salvaging permits they need from various state agencies, such as the state Division of Historical Resources. Permitted salvagers can end up owning items they find, but 20 percent of the value of found treasure goes to the state.

The dive site worked by Funk's team stretches diagonally for perhaps a mile. The team includes members of Heartland Treasure Quest, from Georgia and Florida; Amelia Research Co., of Amelia Island; and Florida Research and Recovery, a group of investors primarily from Georgia.

A principle of Heartland Treasure Quest is Sebastian resident Rex Stocker, who was a member of the Real Eight Co. The Real Eight Co. worked with the famed Mel Fisher's Treasure Salvors Inc. in the 1960s to recover millions of dollars worth of treasure from the 1715 Fleet shipwrecks.

Taffi Fisher Abt, Fisher's daughter and the director of Mel Fisher's Treasure Museum in Sebastian, said she's interested to hear more about the items found by Funk and his partners.

"It's quite possible this wreck is one of the 1715 Fleet," she said. "I have not seen any of these artifacts, and I haven't seen their log sheets, so I don't know for sure."

However, the Florida Bureau of Archaeological Research, in their Sept. 2009 newsletter, had this to say:

Heartland Treasure Quest, which has an exploration contract off Melbourne Beach (E-155), has reported finding a colonial shipwreck but the evidence does not present a strong case. A meeting with the Bureau in October and a revised report may help clarify any evidence for a potential site.

Then there was this article:

Hurricane unburies beach treasure, yields precious coins
The Orlando Sentinel, on Mon, Oct. 25, 2004
by RICH MCKAY

INDIALANTIC, Fla. - (KRT) - It is the stuff of pirate legends, but do not waste your breath asking Joel Ruth on what stretch of Florida's Treasure Coast he found his hoard of Spanish pieces of eight - waiting to be scratched out of the sand with bare fingers and toes.

Treasure hunters guard their secrets. (it was Melbourne Beach)

Especially, if like Ruth, they have just found about 180 near-mint silver coins worth more than $40,000.

To most Floridians, hurricane season is the time to board up windows and dread the worst. But to professional and amateur treasure seekers, it is the time to hit the beaches and hunt lost riches.

"It's why we're called the Treasure Coast," said Ruth, a bookish 52-year-old marine archaeologist (sic) with an African parrot named Euclid who has learned to squawk "Pieces o' eight."

It takes the big storms like Jeanne and Frances to rake several feet of sand off the beaches and dunes and expose gold, silver and gems sunk and scattered centuries ago.


Cheers, Tom

If there was a timeline on which ships sank first.How did any people come up with this timeline in 1715 when all they had for a clock was a sun dial.A sun dial only works when the sun is out,not when you are in the middle of a hurricane.Has any sun dials been recovered from any of the wrecks?

Hourglass

Tom,

Hourglasses dont work very well on a rocking ship in a hurricane.Besides who has time to turn it over when the sand runs out thats on a ship about to be destroyed?It is also a delicate instrument that can be broken very easy.

hour glasses in the old days where how they figgered out how many knots they were doing distance wize for navagation -- they had a small one they used for this say 10 or 15 min -- they  played out a line witha chunk of wood on it (to drag the line out )--on the line were tied knots every so many feet on it once the "time" ran out --they gripped where it was at and counted how many "knots" paid out  then multiplied it by the correct amount to equal 1 hour of time. --that was their knots per hour